Product of Sums (Part 1) | POS Form

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 235

  • @PvMxSolo
    @PvMxSolo 7 ปีที่แล้ว +243

    may god give u whatever u ever wish for. You are absolutely amazing. You cant imagine how much you helped me with your videos. I LOVE U

    • @bikkinasaikumar1399
      @bikkinasaikumar1399 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      (abc)' in demorgan form

    • @bikkinasaikumar1399
      @bikkinasaikumar1399 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Give answer please

    • @oijoijiojij
      @oijoijiojij 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@bikkinasaikumar1399 (abc)'=(a'+b'+c')

    • @AnimeRenegades
      @AnimeRenegades 4 ปีที่แล้ว +10

      @@bikkinasaikumar1399 Easiest PNEUMONIC to remeber DM's laws is "Break the line, change the sign"

    • @aviroxi
      @aviroxi 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@AnimeRenegades nice :)

  • @engs-tv7761
    @engs-tv7761 4 ปีที่แล้ว +40

    You just made it easy. If teaching is an art you are an Artist. Thank you so much.

  • @Maou3
    @Maou3 3 ปีที่แล้ว +94

    3:00 Minterm and maxterm are not called that way because of their size (it's a strange pneumonic that has actually been cited in some textbooks, so I don't blame you). Minterms have "minimum satisfiability" in SOP form, that is, if any single minterm is true, the whole statement is true. Maxterms have "maximum satisfiability" in POS form, that is, all maxterms must be true for the whole statement to be true.

    • @starkendeavours7072
      @starkendeavours7072 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      YEAH! True. Minterm are product terms that produces a value of logic '1' for a specific combinations and Maxterm are the sum terms produces '0' for that Function, and the variables maybe in complemented or un-complemented form.

    • @techmad8204
      @techmad8204 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      yeah i just searched it up because i thought there was some reason behind it also
      min(0,0) = 0
      min(0,1) = 0
      min(1,0) = 0
      min(1,1) = 1
      So minimum is pretty much like logical AND.
      so this could also be another reason but i think satisfiability is a better way of thinking because it is a term

    • @mardy_gun
      @mardy_gun ปีที่แล้ว +4

      *mnemonic

    • @nishandesilva1844
      @nishandesilva1844 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      thanks a lot

  • @solkionatutorial1004
    @solkionatutorial1004 2 ปีที่แล้ว +32

    This video saved me today in my exams on Digital Electronics , CSE327. Thank you so much Sir for your quality videos

    • @stellahkilaa1996
      @stellahkilaa1996 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Am doing it tomorrow 😢

    • @mnnr9310
      @mnnr9310 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@stellahkilaa1996 heyyyy how was your exam how did the questions come for this concept?i have mine next week :(

    • @NeoMavy
      @NeoMavy หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@mnnr9310bro it is next week, i am literally studying on the day of exam

  • @dhritisaluja959
    @dhritisaluja959 6 ปีที่แล้ว +22

    best tutorial for DE. Helped me a lot ..All thanks to you 🙂

  • @xReisk
    @xReisk 8 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    Thanks, just explaining the swap of values between SOP and POS its the only thing we need to understand it, took me half of the day to find the answer to that... Im glad that I could find it with your video for real, that should be a basic explaination on any info talking about this... Thanks for the video dude.

  • @YouKnowMeDuh
    @YouKnowMeDuh 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Why thank you. I was asked for POS and accidentally provided SOP, and couldn't figure out why the answer was so different until I watched both of your videos. I just got them mixed up. Great to have the reminder that I'm supposed to use the opposite for POS. I think I avoided using that form unless I was told back when I took digital logic, so I forgot that little detail.

  • @jinoymathew593
    @jinoymathew593 3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Explaining in such a way that a Fifth grade student can easily understand. Just wonderful... I changed my plan to divorce 'Boolean Algebra'.

  • @kavinduaberathna9875
    @kavinduaberathna9875 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I'm an undergraduate student. this help me a lot to solve my exam question. thank you so much sir

  • @sona-ht8yr
    @sona-ht8yr 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Sir ..you re really god gifted...how can you..explain all so nicely....and never mistaken..really I appreciate you ..

  • @peterifeoluwa3139
    @peterifeoluwa3139 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    3.35 when you were explaining (A+B+C) and (A.B.C), You interchanged minterm and maxterm.
    Great video by the way, easy to understand 😊

  • @ahmedafc3513
    @ahmedafc3513 5 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    Much better than my lecturer thanks man. Salute you.

    • @shubhvarta01
      @shubhvarta01 ปีที่แล้ว

      Mera lecturer accha tha
      Maine hi dhyan nahi dia😐

  • @NineInchFailz
    @NineInchFailz 4 ปีที่แล้ว +55

    way better than my Digital Logic teacher at the college i'm paying 13 grand a year in tuition at lol

  • @aaronstark171
    @aaronstark171 6 ปีที่แล้ว +83

    who let the dogs out? 6:40

    • @mayankchandel4678
      @mayankchandel4678 4 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      u better focus on study hun ...lmao u people are crazy

    • @abdisalame
      @abdisalame 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I was looking for your comment

  • @jacobajakmakuachabuol6362
    @jacobajakmakuachabuol6362 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Am extremely happy for your work. Your simple and comprehensive explanation to various concepts is wonderful. I don't understand a lot of things from my professors but whenever I visit your channel, everything is understandable at once. Your channel has become my favorite study material. Thank you for every effort you do to upload such comprehensive lectures. I would advice to merge the videos of one topic together such that your visitors would find it convenient to follow smoothly.

  • @geekgreek4042
    @geekgreek4042 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you for everything! Much love from Lesotho!❤️

  • @krupalisurani
    @krupalisurani 4 ปีที่แล้ว +125

    anyone is here who is watching this after online class

  • @eutopiarhythms8743
    @eutopiarhythms8743 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I love Neso Academy ❤️

  • @heena_a333
    @heena_a333 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    8:22 for solve POS boolean expression

  • @BlackOpal-dk6iv
    @BlackOpal-dk6iv 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    SIR I HAVE COMPLETED LECTURE 13 OUT OF 202. TREMENDOUS LECTURE AND THANKYOU FOR YOUR GUIDANCE !!

  • @kyeswanth1204
    @kyeswanth1204 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    You teach very amazing sir
    Thank you so much👍👍👍👍🥇🥇🥇

  • @muttarameshchandraprem1478
    @muttarameshchandraprem1478 7 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    In this lecture it is said that maxterm and minterm names are given because of size. But it's wrong .Actual reason is A.B.C is called minterm because it has minimum possibility of getting a high value(1) and A+B+C is called maxterm because it has maximum possibility of getting high value(1).

    • @mratanusarkar
      @mratanusarkar 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I think there's a better reason...
      see this and lemme know if I'm correct.
      stackoverflow.com/a/48516317/9153463

  • @nanaarhin5567
    @nanaarhin5567 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Hello, in your previous video I was trying to understand how you came up with the truth table. Which logic gate did you use, AND or OR? Because I am not able to get the understanding of the table. I know for AND, all inputs must be 1 for output to be 1, and for OR, at least one input must be 1 for output to be 1. But some of the outputs are 1 and others are 0 which is confusing

    • @mardy_gun
      @mardy_gun ปีที่แล้ว +2

      that is a question truth table and has a unique function (its not OR or AND function), thats why we are writing its expression using these forms

  • @sd9433
    @sd9433 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    please do videos on vlsi . your videos are really useful.

  • @jerrysterling4432
    @jerrysterling4432 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    The only question I really have is how do you get the result for the Y on the truth table? Is it just made up? I thought the values are determined by some circuit?

  • @okongorobertodhiambo2826
    @okongorobertodhiambo2826 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    My bro God bless your momma💗❤️

  • @fuadrahmannishat8917
    @fuadrahmannishat8917 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Thank you so much for helping me.. may Allah bless you..

  • @veronicaschmidt3461
    @veronicaschmidt3461 7 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Thank you for the lecture. I don't see the quizzes after lesson 12. Please tell me where the quizzes. Thank you very much.

    • @OCEAN-fc9wl
      @OCEAN-fc9wl 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Did you find the quizzes?

  • @jeanatienza1247
    @jeanatienza1247 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you so much 🥰

  • @piumisenanayake5221
    @piumisenanayake5221 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This is a good video.Thank you sir

  • @josephdorman8010
    @josephdorman8010 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Budo is really enjoying class...he's been barking throughout

  • @ghostfeeling8430
    @ghostfeeling8430 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Short but strong video 😊☺

  • @afiqahsaleh2640
    @afiqahsaleh2640 8 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    How did you get the output Y in the truth table? is it randomly put the output? or to get the output Y, we need to do any operation? like using OR gate, AND gate or what?

  • @richikmajumder2904
    @richikmajumder2904 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Followed these videos when I was studying in my college a few years back & fast forward a few years now when I am teaching a couple of lads the same stuff, I was going through these videos again - and one thing struck me this time - & I hope this helps all who comes to study from Neso: (I tried to make it so that the redundancy theorem doesn't look like it is applicable for only 3 variables - and we will be able to apply it to >3 variables)
    Firstly, what is a consensus term?
    Consider 2 terms : AB , A’C
    The consensus or resolvent of these 2 terms is BC. How?
    A consensus term is the conjunction of all the unique literals of the terms, excluding the literal that appears non-negated in one term and negated in the other.
    Another example: (a + b + c’).(a+b+d’).(b+c+d’)
    a appears in 1st & 2nd term -> both non-negated
    b appears in 1st, 2nd, 3rd term -> all non-negated
    c appears in 1st & 3rd term -> negated in 1st, non-negated in 3rd
    d appears in 2nd & 3rd term -> negated in both
    The consensus term for these 3 will be => all the terms apart from c / c’ = (a+b+d’)
    or,
    Consensus of the 1st & 3rd terms in this example is the 2nd term
    The redundancy / consensus theorem states, a consensus term is redundant when it co-exists along with its constructing terms.
    So, in the expression: ab + a’c + bc , bc is redundant

  • @lumerify
    @lumerify ปีที่แล้ว

    little did those dogs know their barks would be heard by millions of ears.

  • @sabbir.officials
    @sabbir.officials 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    NESO Academy, you beauty.

  • @nitishkumarprajapati6096
    @nitishkumarprajapati6096 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks Sir 😀😀

  • @vikamiller1
    @vikamiller1 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    🙏 thank you

  • @chethanahegde5165
    @chethanahegde5165 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank u so much.....very Helpful videos.......

  • @Csartreweghhgf
    @Csartreweghhgf 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This is awesome!

  • @PoojaSahu-pg8jn
    @PoojaSahu-pg8jn 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks sir 😊 very nicely explain

  • @Yusufkolamari-v7y
    @Yusufkolamari-v7y 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Nice sir keep it up

  • @sportsuper9489
    @sportsuper9489 ปีที่แล้ว

    sir you are king

  • @MonikaKumari-er4de
    @MonikaKumari-er4de 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you ☺️

  • @saadmanahmed860
    @saadmanahmed860 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    how did u get the Y value in truth table..random or by any logical operation??

  • @continnum_radhe-radhe
    @continnum_radhe-radhe 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    🔥🔥🔥

  • @Codality
    @Codality 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thx a lot Neso Academy
    I have a question in the minutes 9:43, how this law you apply it here ? I Couldn't understand it, Can you help me ?

    • @subhashbose4989
      @subhashbose4989 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      lets take B = X and B'+C' = Y now
      => (A+X).(A+Y)
      => A+(X.Y)
      => A+ [B.(B'+C')]
      ok.

    • @heyyCyber
      @heyyCyber 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @hbose4989 THANKS BUDDY!!!! I WASTED 1HR FINDING THIS FROM GOOGLE🥲..... AFTER THAT I FOUND YOUR REPLY

    • @lukmankhan_
      @lukmankhan_ 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@subhashbose4989
      Thanks buddy was stuck for minutes.

  • @phanindrareddy4885
    @phanindrareddy4885 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Did a great job

  • @kkppkkpp5826
    @kkppkkpp5826 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    When values are equal (0& 1) both having same number of high and low , that time which form to be used SOP/POS ????

  • @RohitKumar-yi3pw
    @RohitKumar-yi3pw 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    amazing broo thanks it helped me alooooot

  • @4dvitiya
    @4dvitiya 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    sir the table used in the question. Is it specfic for that question ? or do we have to memorize it?

  • @yeshwanthrayankula0569
    @yeshwanthrayankula0569 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Can you tell me how did you apply the distributive law @9:38 second??

  • @saadmanahmed860
    @saadmanahmed860 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    good explanation

  • @shubhamnanda1080
    @shubhamnanda1080 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    do you have analog communication vedios..?
    if not prefer any channel for that..?

  • @shm03
    @shm03 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    all after 8:59 seems all wrong to me

  • @sahilprasantachoudhury911
    @sahilprasantachoudhury911 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Self referential note: SOP - POS interconversion re De Morgan law ta khali canonical form re use kariheba,minimal form re nuha

  • @ajiteshkumar5841
    @ajiteshkumar5841 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Can you tell me how do you get the results in truth table from different values of A,B,C variable ???

  • @girisht1936
    @girisht1936 8 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    why can't we stop at y=A+BC'?
    why should you go for distributive law again?

    • @sonalsrivastava9064
      @sonalsrivastava9064 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      This is because there he was trying to derive the minimal POS form of the function. A+BC' is the minimal SOP, but applying Distributive law on it makes it (A+B).(A+C') which is the minimal POS.

    • @girisht1936
      @girisht1936 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@sonalsrivastava9064 Great, thank you. You remind me of my whole B.E again

    • @Cm-zc2zx
      @Cm-zc2zx 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@girisht1936 Well what are you doing now!!?

  • @audiobookbyrahila1336
    @audiobookbyrahila1336 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    thank u so much..

  • @namitarane537
    @namitarane537 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    How did you find truth table in the last question as it was not given in the question? Can you explain?

  • @omwalunj11
    @omwalunj11 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    max term min term logiK

    • @maaz_gamming
      @maaz_gamming 6 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      No logic there just when we write it wich one take less space A.B.C is minterm and wich takes large space is maxterm A+B+C
      A+B+C maxterm
      A.B.C minterm

  • @dhaneshpt8641
    @dhaneshpt8641 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you very much.

  • @arsalanadeeb7589
    @arsalanadeeb7589 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Its called min term because of its satisfiability.Not because of its size.

  • @lumerify
    @lumerify ปีที่แล้ว

    more people have heard those dogs barking or that car honking than will ever hear my voice. or the voice of most of yall in the comments. Isn't that weird? I hope neso gets quieter videos in the future. I know this was around a decade ago so he has probably improved his recording since this video.

  • @yashveersinghyadav7777
    @yashveersinghyadav7777 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    I think maxterm and minterm are because of nature of output from boolean expression (most of the time maxterm has high output whereas minterm has low output)

    • @mratanusarkar
      @mratanusarkar 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      I think there's a better reason...
      see this and lemme know if I'm correct.
      stackoverflow.com/a/48516317/9153463

  • @aksharkottuvada
    @aksharkottuvada 6 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    dog sound background from 6:40

  • @faheemqazi619
    @faheemqazi619 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    you are a genius:)

  • @kavyaagarwal8052
    @kavyaagarwal8052 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    In the form (A+BC'), we have 2 gates(1 OR &1 AND) and in the form {(A+B).(A+C')}, we have 3 gates(2 OR & 1 AND), then why the form {(A+B).(A+C')} is called the minimal form!? .......{in the example given in this video}

    • @mrStrange33
      @mrStrange33 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      EXACTLY....I WAS DOING IT RIGHT NOW AND FOUND THIS....I THINK HE FORGOT TO GO FURTHER BY USING DISTRIBUTIVE LAW IN OTHER WAY

  • @rahulsadaram5805
    @rahulsadaram5805 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    10:31 i might the minimal pos is A+B.C' NOT (A+B). (A+C')

    • @yenoh-kj1id
      @yenoh-kj1id 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      It is brother

  • @bikkinasaikumar1399
    @bikkinasaikumar1399 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    (abc)' in demorgan formula

  • @het314
    @het314 5 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    The more I watch these videos the more I realize how dumb my professors are... Thank you..!

    • @plain_and_simple
      @plain_and_simple 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Your professors may not be necessarily dumb, they just don't know how to explain it clearly like the way it is explained here.

    • @het314
      @het314 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@plain_and_simple I think they are dumb...

    • @MalekAlthubiany
      @MalekAlthubiany 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@het314 youtube videos are just edited, maybe he had repeated this video a million times.

  • @chitralahari6101
    @chitralahari6101 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What is the relation between sop and pof form ?
    I got confused with this.can you please clear me sir ?

  • @sarthakshukla786
    @sarthakshukla786 ปีที่แล้ว

    Watching one night before end sem. 😅

  • @pulipakaraviaknth5917
    @pulipakaraviaknth5917 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    excellent

  • @ScourgeofBabylon
    @ScourgeofBabylon 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Why aren't 4 terms being used in the conversion to SOP? The A' B C' value also fits the condition for Y'. Should it not be included?

  • @TheZainullahkHan
    @TheZainullahkHan 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    Love you Bro

  • @heerakjyotidas9731
    @heerakjyotidas9731 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    sir please answer to my question.
    simplify using K map with the dont care condition into POS form
    F(A,B,C,D)=SUMATION(1,3,7,11,15)
    d(A,B,C,D)=Sumation(0,2,5)
    sir if u dont have time you can give me the funnction as answer. I have done but i am confused

    • @nandininandakumar381
      @nandininandakumar381 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Did you get the answer as :
      ABD'+C'D' or C'D'
      It's been 2 yrs you would have got the answer.

  • @prashantkv8737
    @prashantkv8737 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Tquuuu so much sir

  • @barsilgen120
    @barsilgen120 ปีที่แล้ว

    thanks a lot

  • @curesnow6493
    @curesnow6493 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The Y column can have any values ?

  • @abhayshukla523
    @abhayshukla523 ปีที่แล้ว

    How do you write the output of corresponding variable A&B please explain

  • @ciniworld6342
    @ciniworld6342 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    (A+B+c( complement)).(B( complement)+c) what is next how to use a distributive law

  • @hemasaini3380
    @hemasaini3380 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sir can you please explain what the operation are apply in the truth table to get Y plzz sir

  • @nishimwedaniel1044
    @nishimwedaniel1044 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Can you please number the videos. For example: 01. Introduction to digital electronics, just like that coze it helps in searching videos when we have downloaded them. Thank you.

  • @hetolakiya2737
    @hetolakiya2737 ปีที่แล้ว

    Kal to meri exam hai bhai 😁🥲

  • @bharatshahi6405
    @bharatshahi6405 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Si how can we write output Y

  • @GovindJeengarce-
    @GovindJeengarce- 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    thanks sir

  • @Guruji-vz8eg
    @Guruji-vz8eg 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Why we are not using Reduncy theorem for this (A+B+C)(A+B+C')(A+B'C')
    Plz explain neso academy

    • @ratnavalir8674
      @ratnavalir8674 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      In redundancy theoem each variable is repeated twice.,but in this problem variables are repeated trice a time

  • @btechboy1-z8x
    @btechboy1-z8x 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Can we write pos from sop if we let the high o/p (at 3:39) . How?

  • @syedasalimaakhtar4608
    @syedasalimaakhtar4608 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    my doubt is on what basis have you taken the truth table in this as well as last one because when i verified , the output depends on the no. of inputs which is more . if high input is more, output is higher and the vice versa . please clear this out.

    • @nesoacademy
      @nesoacademy  4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      It is taken randomly to explain the concept.

  • @young3247
    @young3247 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    The Indian English is too spicy!

  • @aditirai2597
    @aditirai2597 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sir what is the difference between canonical and standard forms

  • @Professor_el
    @Professor_el 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    how are you able to generate the value of the output?? its the only thing I seem not to understand please!!

  • @samridhshubham8109
    @samridhshubham8109 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    how are u deciding Y's value sir

  • @abhirupchatterjee8368
    @abhirupchatterjee8368 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    How you wrote Y as output...in this POS form?? How to do it? I mean what to do so that we get this output?

  • @sameerkandukuri74
    @sameerkandukuri74 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    POS expression of A B C+A B' C'+A B' C+A B C'+A' B' C. I need an answer for this..

    • @subhashbose4989
      @subhashbose4989 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      it's maxterms of SOP form

    • @subhashbose4989
      @subhashbose4989 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Y = (A+B+C).(A+B'+C').(A'+B+C).(A'+B+C') THATS YOUR ANSWER OR
      Y = pi(M0,M3.M4,M5)
      Y = piM(0,3,4,5)

  • @bhagiallala8897
    @bhagiallala8897 7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Why are you not teaching pos form in middle why ur are teaching sop form pls give clarity

  • @hibmoshar6206
    @hibmoshar6206 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thaaaaank you!!

  • @ParthivShah
    @ParthivShah 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    thanks.

  • @hafsamahmood5565
    @hafsamahmood5565 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    The expression that u derived of SOP doesn't match with the POS already written .
    The first max term isn't the same?