Its not hard per sae, but based on the leaked launch roaster there are 18 characters, and that is 324 pairs, multiply that by 3 and you needed to record 972 conversation. Assuming each last 10 seconds on average thats 2.7 hours of recording. Not super expensive but it adds up quadradically. With 52 characters that is over 7 hours of recording. Again, its nice to do it, and its not extremely expensive per sae, but effort isnt exactly trivia.
I'm glad you mentioned the character interactions. Tekken needs more. It makes it so much more immersive and interesting. Oh yes and intro and win poses!
Yeah they re used the same win poses and intros for Kazuya and it bothered me because I wanted to see something new. Or bring his ttt2 win poses back they were fire.
Tekken 8 netcode is pretty unique given its a 3D fighter. There's little comparison given MK and SF are 2D. Games like CSGO etc are usually server based connection these days not P2P connection. But P2P connection on games outside of fighter against players across the other side of the world will always suck lol.
Rollback for a 3D fighter like tekken or virtua fighter has never been really done before. No doubt Tekken 8 will be the biggest influence on how rollback is done if a new a VF game is ever announced
Also in shooters, the precise location of 2 dueling players isn't as important to be relayed to both - usually priority is given to the attacker if the other player just barely ducked behind a wall for instance, the game doesn't need to show exactly where both players were on their screens to everyone, but in T8 you both have the same perspective of both players so whenever rollback happens their positions and actions will visibly change.
Hi small unity programmer here, the amount of variables you have to manage with the netcode is exponencial from 2d and 3d. If you can have like 8-10 frames of rollback in games like gg strive, with the same code structure probably could be 2-3 frames in a 3D env.
@@pearlsbubbletea576 reducing the number of choices that the player could do, but thats not tekken at the end of the day. In my understanding of netcode, its pretty hard search for an optimization of this, probably the best choice will be that an AI record your commands to predict your next move in advance, but I dont know the performance or the time of development of this feature. Sry, this is the best that I can imagine.
@@pearlsbubbletea576 The most correct answer is "Its depend" because many things can make the game slow (be it 2D or 3D). The core foundation of optimization is to start with "finding the bottleneck". Do a CPU/GPU capture, figure out whether you are CPU or GPU bound, then start profiling, and look for bottleneck. On CPU side, it could be as simple as bad data-structure/algorithm usage. It could also be your gameplay/physics/UI code, it could be your art assets (static mesh, skeletal mesh, cpu/gpu particle, transparency overdraw, UI, etc), or expensive rendering features (GI, AO, Reflection, Bloom, Shadows, TAA, etc). It could be anything, you can't really pin point exactly what is the problem (and what to optimize) without doing investigation. But, ultimately most things are more expensive and significantly harder to optimize in 3D than 2D space (Graphics, Physics, Math, Gameplay, 3D Animation, etc). So that wild guess from 8-10 frames to 2-3 frames when switch from 2D to 3D is purely arbitrary, there's not enough context to make that assumption at all. With 16.67 ms frame budget for 60 fps, you can push down the graphics budget to 4 ms, you'll have 12.67 ms left, and if you can optimize your gameplay/physics tick to be within 1.267 ms, you can make 60 fps budget with 10 frames rollback on paper. In practice, you need to leave some room for vfx, UI, Audio, cpu-side rendering gpu command (overlapped multi-thread rendering vs multi-thread fork-join rendering), etc. But, there's nothing stopping you from achieving 10 frames rollback with the right optimization + compromisation in 3D P2P lock-step + rollback games.
@@sbilly17 much appreciated your knowledge buudy unlike the dude who said this quote: Hi small unity programmer here. What he said was lackluster and abysmal. As a former pc maintentance and IT Networker, I expect more from fellow nerds in the field, who should explain things in layman terms to the general public on social media like youtube. Yet your message which is thoughtful precise and nerdy as all hell which equals bad ass in my view, only gets 4 likes, yet that dude gets 62 likes. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him prophecised about things like this. The men of knowledge will be overlooked whilst the layman will put to the forefront by the ignorant. The wise will take from the ones who have true knowledge not the laymen like the majority.
the way it works is the server has to calculate the moveset's hitboxes in an entire 3d environmental x y z space. while a 2d game has to only calculate the 2d dimensional space. Optimizing is much more pleasant on a 2d space. 3d has much more complex mechanics.
No it wouldn't effect as it will only calculate the move being executed but different moves will have different hit range and other properties so it does add some complexity but number of moves doesn't matter
It's difficult to compare the "netcode" of a fighting game vs a game like Dota, since the bigger games use servers to accommodate way more players, when it's one v one it just functions differently, and it definitely seems like t8 is still peer to peer, haven't seen anything that would suggest otherwise
Peer to peer its the standard for every fighting game. What we want is rollback netcode. Tekken seems to have it but its worse than sf6 and mortal kombat11
Removing Chicken is such a stupid idea. I remember how cool and exciting it felt back then in Tekken 3 and it was still neccessary against characters like Asuka or Paul. I wondered already during the Beta why my chicken aint working. Also the announcer was so cool. I hope they bring it back in the full game
they should add a trigger when if a player plugs after a game ends coming back to the game they would have -3k pts penalty or they would be ban in rank temporarily like 5 minutes and if they plug again 10 minutes and if another plug in a row 30 mins etc.
Yeah my biggest gripe is the soundtrack for sure. I absolutely hate the character select music. The sound effects were a bit weird too. The heat engage sound effect was like a cash register bell not a fan.
Should be able to change them in customizations like we could in Tekken 7. I have had the Tekken 6 character select soundtrack from pretty much the beginning.
My biggest issue with T8 is with the Heat engagers... iwish they would change the mechanic and make it optional when using moves that let you go into heat instead of forcing you to go into heat thus restricting players in terms of movesets and situational opportunities
Well netcode in something like counter strike and tekken isnt the same. In counter strike there is a server in between all the connected players which filters the packets sent from the players and then it sends packets back to the players informing them on what happened in those miliseconds of sent packets. In tekken its peer to peer, so two people connecting to each others devices. So there isnt really a man in the middle like a serve
Im a bit sad about the while running move change. It was a bit of a specialty i developed in T7. Loved using those moves surprising ppl in their face and showing off execution.
@@ranzudezuLRTCfacts I play Lars and although he is considered easy to play the only move that is plus on block in neutral is his wr3. I got really good at them and now it’s not that impressive anymore
When it comes to netcode, a heavier reliance on rollback frames would make certain moves like throws and launching lows damn near unstoppable with poor connections. I've noticed even with Tekken 7's limited rollback that you sometimes see a few animation frames get shaved off of moves. That'll get more extreme the more rollback frames Tekken is given (imagine for example a Dragon Tail that you only see half the animation of before it hits you). And the movement is more twitchy and active than in a game like street fighter, footsies in a 3D space is more complex than in a 2D space. Rollback works on a prediction based system, and I think complex movement options like wavedash and backdash cancels can't be predicted by the system due to them being multi-part inputs. That being said, I still think I'd prefer a little bit of character teleportation over the game coming to a screeching halt whenever we get a lag spike.
The main difference between tekken and other 2d fighting games is that tekken has smooth animations. When rollback animation skip appears it looks bad in tekken because you expect smooth motion but you get teleportation. The 2D fighters are animated in a different way and the teleportations that happen as a result dont look as bad with that animation stlye. I still think that tekken could speed up the animation when rollback happens instead of teleporting to some frame in the middle of the animation.
Yup registered the day it was available, and never got a code. Def not giving any scalpers money for as scummy as they are. Hope there's another test open to more people.
You were a month late as they closed the registration in June if I remember correctly. They just don't know how to handle these things while having all the PSN and Steam data.
The fact that this is only a alpha is really good news because this cnt test was so fun. Yes it felt similar but at the same time Bandai namco has so much more to offer for this game to be the most best Tekken , in my opinion. Like it’s already really good in this state
At 2:00, this was the biggest issue for me and possibly everyone else on PC because I signed up specifically for steam alone. Those hundreds of codes that could have gone to me, you, and other pro players are now lost forever. I am so sorry for some of us not being able to play on both weekends.
The Netcode for 3d fighters hasn't been great, but also Namco bandai has never had good netcode even in it's 2D fighters. So it's a bit of column A and a bit of column B, how much of Column A is due to Column B is very muych something worth discussing but I do believe alot of it just comes down to Bamco not investing much resources into Netplay and generally being dismissive of rollback.
I love everything about 8 besides the announcer. Say what you will about tekken 7's not having instant rematch, but the announcer shouting GET READY FOR THE NEXT BATTLE BATTLE BATTLE every time makes the waiting kinda fun.
Is it just me or do the characters feel a lot easier now I remember Bryan and Jin having some difficult combos in Tekken 7 but now they have combos that are easy as hell to do. Law's DSS cancel was a little hard to do in tekken 7 but now in tekken 8 it's easy as hell
Well playing with Jin, yes and no. F4 has been buffed/nerfed in some ways or another. Combo definitely is a lot easier to pick up but the range has been nerfed drastically (doesn't punish death first from max range anymore and stance cancel is definitely harder). But his other combo utility and moves have been buffed like ECD1, now can be used as a table flip combo extender, hits grounded and launches.
The only thing about Bryan is that they made his while standing throw much easier to do. His combos are roughly the same, though some things have changed
im 100% on board with the ft2-3 for ranked play. the reason is because it simulates tournament play, which is notoriously more aggressive compared to deathmatches, where information gathering becomes the more important factor in the long term as the set goes on. this compliments the aggressive design philosophy. also, ft2’s inherently remove the win streak counter, the win streak counter incentivizes plugging, it’s the same reason they removed loss count and win percentages which used to be visible in older tekkens, because it incentivized plugging. player match can have unlimited rematches, where you can hone matchup knowledge etc, but ranked should be like a real spontaneous test, a ft2, who can come out on top in this single set. if you got blown up by a string youre unfamiliar with, well too bad, go figure it out outside of ranked and comeback when youre ready for it. ranked isnt supposed to be practice mode. they could even buff the ft2 to like a ft5 when you get to the god ranks. it’s far more interesting this way imo.
I got to play tekken 8 at evo. The side step buff was extremely noticeable. It was a lot of fun to either side step jet upper/electric was a lot of fun to do. I didn’t really have the time to get into the heat system or the new bound. The game was the one of the prettiest fighting games I’ve seen. No complains from me I can’t wait for the game to drop
Now you hit the nail on the head with the intros we need more variety please and more win poses come on now this is tekken 8 step your game up guys please these things are important to players it add more lore to the game 🙏🏾
I love how people are shitting on T8 when its a better game than T7. You dont need 120 moves for every character when even Pros only use about 40-50 of them. Heat system allows people to have more flexibility with their combos. execution still has value as you can make a heat combo even better. Characters look good. Stages look good. You can pick the game and do cool stuff even if you never played Tekken.
Thankyou for asking the question. I was always curious if implementing rollback into a 3d fighting game as opposed to a 2d game that is not only old but was built with a net code specifically for Japan.
what you said about using heat to recover health being overlooked is so true. was something i was thinking about when ppl were complaining about chip damge being too much. if you really think about it, the chip damage isnt actually real damage, it’s like in a limbo state where the damage to your health bar is real but also not real at the same time, and it’s waiting to be actualized. it adds some serious depth to the game when you really think about it. i think people will eventually learn how genius the chip and recovery system is and grow to love it.
Wow man. I put this on to have something to draw to, but ended up learning so much! Now I hope they do another closed/open beta test so I can try myself! Never played Tekken before. Great video! I can tell you pay so much attention to what's going on.
i did think the worst things about t7 were winposes/voices/character customisation. they've definitely prioritised gameplay over characterisation which is fine but i really miss the quality english voice actors from t5, good customistion and good winposes/intros which honestly put me off playing as a casual tekken player who wants the cool aesthetics/video almost as much as the good gameplay
I don't know why they are pushing rage arts so much. I love everything about the game, except this. Too simple, too braindead, too strong and too long, crashing the rhythm of a fight. Noone liked it in T7, noone is gonna like it in T8. They look cool, sure, first 10 times, but do we really even need them? I'd really vote to remove it completely.
They are pushing rage arts because casuals love cinematic moves and they look good visually. Wether you like them or not all fighting games will have super cinematic types of moves because they are good for marketing
It seems like some of the problem with rollback netcode in Tekken specifically is that movements can be cancelled into each other on any frame. Part of what makes rollback work in most 2D games is that most actions will lock out your control of the character for substantial amounts of frames. Rollback always ends up being most noticeable when someone is just walking backwards and forwards. I don't think anyone playing an FPS game from one side of the world to the other would expect a good experience either tbh. It might be playable, but it would be noticeable.
For Netcode, you can't compare P2P Fighting game to Server-based game (CSGO, Dota 2, Overwatch, etc). The technical challenges are way way different. 1) P2P vs Server game: For Server, you can just do mild imprecise client prediction then snap toward incoming state from the server (server can do all the rollback then push out new states), just like a video player, most server-based games are all about faking seamless experience because they don't require frame perfect experience like fighting game (especially Dota 2 that play fine at 100 ms ping, even shooting games are faked easily with server-side rollback raycast check). Meaning that in a Server based game, you can do any random shit on the client-side, then snap to the incoming server states since you can always get the correct game state from the server, server can also be non-deterministic and imprecise since it can set whatever to be the agreed correct state. For P2P lock-step, only inputs are exchanged, so all the game states on all machines need to be fully deterministic, and high performance enough to simulate/store locally 3-10 frames of gameplay/physics (regardless of machines), then present that state in a visual/audio form (vfx, sfx, ui, etc), implying that all the code need to be perfectly organized with clear separation of simulation vs presentation layer. 3D Animation, VFX, SFX can also be very tricky to get right during Rollback/Re-simulation (all of which are super trivial in Server based game). 2) Determinism: Floating point determinism is very difficult to achieve across all machine/os/compiler/instruction sets (almost impossible). When you rollback, and simulate forward 1-10 frames every simulation tick, your game state precision will slowly shifting off from 0.000001 to 0.000002, and eventually character moved far enough to cause desync (collision miss/hit, weird physic resolve, etc) that snowball into wrong winner. What many game does is to use Fixed-Point arithmetic, which can kind of guarantee determinism, but at a cost of performance, since CPU/GPU hardware are all optimized for floating-point arithmetic. (also, I remember Project L did a presentation that said they implemented 2D physics/gameplay with fully fixed point math) 3) 3D Physics: Most 3D physics engine out there are written with floating at the based level (optimized hand-placed SIMD), 2D physics are way way easier than 3D physics (math, data-structure/algorithm, optimization), and can run way way faster, which is also why 2D fighting game are much easier to write than 3D fighting game. Rewriting the whole 3D physics engine into Fixed-point math is hard, which is why Tekken 8 still using floating-point based physics engine (referring to T8 Harada tweet that said floating point math is still a concern for desync issue). 4) Performance Requirement: To support rollback, all gameplay and physics logic are not only need to be fully deterministic, but also need to be highly optimized, enough to run 3-10 times in a single tick. All Math code are way more expensive in 3D space than 2D and they're all present in every gameplay/physics code, amplify that by 3-10 simulations per tick which can all be significant. Its just overall trickier to optimize 3D game than a 2D one. Also, Rollback can be very CPU intensive that take away budget from GPU side, and if you're trying to push for better visual fidelity like T8, its very hard to guarantee that it'll run well on all variety of PC machines.
For me, I feel like both Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 has some of their cleanest character models to date, however I got to say that Street Fighter 6 animates their characters way better than Tekken 8 does. Bandai namco is working with a whole new graphics engine right now and yet their characters faces. Still animate like sock puppets while Street fighters characters look both clean and very expressive. I hope they improve on their characters Animations when the game comes out.
Rollback is the best solution for instant netcode period but can't work on pretty much anything but a fighting game. If two players disconnect from each other, we can just simulate what would have happened if the game wasn't lagging based on when they hit their buttons Let's say in CS: GO we have 2 opposing players: The Skiller is holding mid with his AWP. He will always kill the first person to cross or push without fail, using a different method for each The Lagger is playing from the other side of the world and will always try push mid to go for the kill but lag at the last moment. With the current netcode, the Lagger will simply cross against his will, the Skiller will react, and the Lagger will be killed. If we decide to implement rollback netcode the situation changes drastically as it splits into two. For the Skiller, he will see the Lagger cross and kill him. For the Lagger, he will see himself push through mid and kill the Skiller If we simply base it on inputs and re-simulate the game, we'll see the Lagger walk through mid and shoot the Skiller, who is shooting at a wall Now you hopefully see why rollback can't work in an FPS, and can extrapolate this knowledge to other games. But you might have noticed something. Tekken doesn't suffer from these problems. The only way I can see Tekken 8 rollback being impossible is if they tied the game's logic to a timer. Doing this can be a great short term solution for an indie project, for example if all you had to code was Kazuya's electric, you could do it easily by telling the game engine "If Kazuya hits his EWGF, the enemy will rise for half a second, then fall for half a second." But if you use this form of logic, then try to implement rollback, you will get terrible results when trying to simulate situations in 0.01 second. Combos dropping for no reason, certain moves not doing anything at all, unfixable game-breaking issues that would show up constantly. This is just a theory but I feel like it could be the reason.
Regarding Rage Arts - they are so OP, I wish they would make them as in Mk11 - once per match, not once per round, that way the gameplay pace wont suffer and there would an actually strategy wheter to use them or not
Don`t know why people dislike tekken 8 music. Personally i didnt find any music that i don`t like. We need remember that there will be more stages, that mean more type of music. I like that every music from tekken is associate with the stage, that creates more immersive gameplay. If they suddenly change music to one of stages from cnt that would be kinda stupid, the music should stay regardless how much people like it.
Hitsmash is designed to fit with their new special command mode. It also helps the new player having a big string that they can use and not deep dive directly into hard combos
It's so funny to hear people talk about chip damage, back in the day when I did versus against friends, we always had chip on to avoid turtling, it was super fun
As much as I like character interaction, I'd prefer if they kept it random. After a while it will get old once you know what they're going to do or say for *every* character. Preset "universal" intros have more lasting value if you play the game alot.
I thought the music was forgettable as well except the Arena theme, they really picked the right music for the trailers. I wish they would do character themes again.
I think the thing with Tekken and rollback has to largely do with the fact that the fastest moves are 10 frames vs 2D's 3 or 4 frames. The rollback on a 3D fighter may be more visually apparent. To my knowledge, no 3D fighter on the market has implemented rollback.
I think the best of 3 thing, for ranked matches are completely fine because it encourages you to make friends, and play privately. It takes away how toxic online ranked is atm. But I definitely want casual play to have unlimited rematch
Didn’t expect to agree on almost all points with you, we need a new tekken not a tekken 7.5, only disagreeing with the soundtrack, I loved that especially rebel hangar, sanctum and the last round on the Times Square stage
I liked soundtracts too but not character select screen theme. I did not agree on Long Combos in Tekken 8 imo they are great. Damages could be nerfed. I played games with longer combos. If combos are look cool no need to worry abouth length
Most MOBA games like DotA have servers per location. There is an option to connect to other Servers even though its not your location, but its not good experience. I guess its on the 2D vs 3D thing, since there are a lot of 2D Fighting Games compared to 3D so somebody has already developed good codes for 2D Netcode. And on a simple term, remember 3D is like a composition of multiple 2Ds, which makes Rollbacks and all other things harder to predict or set what happens.
No matter what you do, half of the playerbase will freak out. Change things and half of the players say that it's "not Tekken anymore". Don't change things and half of the players say "this is just Tekken 7.5". I'm glad to see massive changes. You don't know what works until you try it and it looks to me that they're trying a lot of new things. Can't wait to see how they work out and what the future of Tekken will be after.
They already confirmed CH throw break window will be increased. Harada also mentioned the bo3 was only for CNT because they wanted better testing data and backdash is being looked at as well.
I play valorant a lot and living in the uk I only select London, France and Germany to have lowest pings. An option like that would be great rather than just 3,4 and 5
Implementation wise, 3D shouldn't have an impact. Rollback doesn't really care about what the players' inputs do, just about sending/receiving them and saving/loading the game state. I have a hunch that potentially, the Tekken engine doesn't handle starting animations on later frames that well, a requirement for larger rollback windows. This could be why they limit rollback window to what it is and add delay to smooth out the experience. Could be that they have the hitboxes and hurtboxes tied to the animations, so slight changes in the animations would change game properties, meaning inconsistent network situation would make some interactions inconsistent. Another thing that is generally recommended, is that you have no sudden visual changes in the first few frames of something. For example, in Fightcade SF3S, you can get a KO screen, the game roll back, and have the opponent block your killing blow. Could be that the particle system causes issues with this. Could also be that despawning particles is hard if those are done a certain way on the GPU. None of those are really a 3D specific issues, but engine issues. Implementing rollback is not easy if you have decades of code and a team familiar with the current architecture. For older 2d games, modern machines are powerful enough to store the entire state of the game for each frame and then roll back by loading one of those. This is how fightcade and guilty gear ac+r rollback systems work iirc. For newer games like Strive and SF6, the game was built with rollback in mind, so the internal data representations are probably intentionally made in a way where it's easy to store and load the game state. There is a bit of an awkward middle ground with games like Guilty Gear Xrd and Tekken 7, where rollback wasn't quite as well established when they were being developed, so the people making the hard to change decisions early on could easily miss something and build the game on a foundation that is incredibly hard to add rollback to. Adding rollback to these games is not impossible, as Arcsys seems hell-bent on proving (god bless them), but it probably costs a lot of time and effort. Depending on how much they actually redid from scratch, Tekken 8 could be in the same camp as SF6, or fall into the middleground if it takes too much from Tekken 7. So far it seems like they've at the very least fixed the low hanging fruits, but the long term quality is still somewhat up in the air. I've been developing an indie fighting game for a few years now, hopefully alpha soon™. A lot of this is based on my recent pains with animations and networking.
Maybe you should only have access to chip damage when you're in heat. Either use heat to apply chip damage or use heat to regain health for the counter
This was an awesome review, I am glad that you gave away some of the test codes you were given. That's an awesome thing. I think the only thing I am kind of worried about is the recoverable health. That soft kills the hype slo-mo finishes (even if many were just jabs). That's my biggest issue on the presentation (even more than the awful music). I do like how they are doing Heat and I can't wait to see what more is discovered about it. I am still wondering if there's a point to doing EWHF with Jin since WHF launches
I didnt get to play the CNT. I just hope from what im seeing either they tone way down the damage and frames or give more defensive options in movement or whatever. The game looks like a solitaire now. When you have chip damage, oppressive frames and properties on mids and highs, why do u need lows that give plus frames on top of that? And im saying this as a Bryan main. I would be fine with them removing hatchet if the moves r this oppressive. Looks like is very easy to get overwhelmed by pressure and to me it looks like its too much now. They made FFF easier to do but still didn’t implement an easier way then KBD to get out of the way? I dont understand. Im saying this as someone who practiced the shit out of the KBD, just make it easy to do and let me move away from the oppressive moves.
The only change I want to see with heat is the whole making the opponent block keeps the heat timer still for obnoxious chip damage like from hwao and instead change it so that’s removed and give the player the ability to manually turn off their heat and save the remaining time they have with it for later on it would easily sort the issue out whist adding a layer to heat at the same time
in games like counter strike, valorant, league of legends there are servers dedicated to a geografical location. For example, people from NA play on NA server, people from Europe play on EU server. You cannot play cross server, unless there is a international competition and then all players from different countries fly to one country to play LAN (Local network). However, the player from NA can join other servers to play, but the ping (time until data arrives from other location) will increase dramatically. The further the server, the higher the ping, and therefore America vs Poland not viable in those games. Ping can be few hundreds, which is unplayable. The gatekeeper here is not the company, but the internet technology, sadly not yet fits the need.
Work in the tech field, with work in some indie development. It's got more to do with animation style. If your animations use a lot of keyframes and can't cancel into a whole bunch of other animations and there's a built in delay between inputs and visuals, rollback net code works very well. You can work in the input delay and the key frames to your advantage. This is why rollback doesn't work well for Smash Brothers even though it's a 2D game. Just to explain it clearly, in Street Fighter, when Ryu uses his neutral mP, it has a 6 frame start up but because the game uses keyframes for the animation, rollback can miss frames 1-5 and it doesn't look jank. Most players won't even notice the drop. In Tekken if Kazuya's jab just skipped the first 5 frames it looks super jank. The smooth nature of the movement also impacts it a lot. Street fighter movement options are almost all hard commits too. Outside of shimmies, any dash will be the same every time. Tekken's movement is fluid, the characters able to cancel movement options from one to another very fast. There is no KBD in Street Fighter, for example. You have, again, a very similar situation in Smash which is why rollback just sucks for both of these games. Rollback wouldn't work for Street Fighter if you could cancel a forward dash into a back jump into a crouch into a backdash into a forward jump. You'd see characters teleporting around the screen and I'm sure that Namco probably saw exactly that happening with Tekken movement when they tried to implement rollback in their game.
I remember way back when TMM reacted to Leffens Tekken review and he was a bit perplexed at how in depth it went into all things non-gameplay related, I think he even made fun of it a bit. Funny how today TMM seems to do an extremely in depth review much like Leffens from long ago.
I think the problem with fully adding rollback to tekken wouldn’t a playability issue rather a look issue it would make tekken looks goofy and weird af in motion.
MK1 (and every MK game in the past and forever into the future) will forever be janky. Why? Because NRS can't animate for shit. They have extremely high production values and budget but when it comes to their animation, ugh... not sure who or what they have on staff but they really need an entire new animation team.
With shooters they can cheat the net code a lot more to make the connections work. The types of interactions are a lot simpler don’t need the speed/precision of a fighter.
36:05 They added a lot of new moves. But King lost more moves than any other character! King lost so much of his grapple game in T8 it's actually upsetting. He also lost a ridiculous number of setups and oki. By removing his crouch multi throw you can no longer do jag2 into multi throw. They removed the only safe and GUARANTEED way to attempt a multi throw, it is honestly such an incredible nerf I can't believe more people aren't talking about it! They also removed the full crouch multi throw. (Since df+1+3 and df+2+4 have a specific crouch throw animation they might have just killed those multi throws since everyone and their grandmothers are going to duck it then launch punish it once they have seen it a few times) They removed his Irish whip extensions so you loose 3 diffrent guaranteed ground throw setups! 3!!! (2 in the open with Irish whip 3+4 and 2+4, and 1 at the wall from regular Irish whip without an extension. All had incredible oki after. Not anymore, cause they removed it.) Irish whip 2+4 gave you 2 guaranteed ground throw attempts back to back and oki that could launch them if they held back to get up after. Now it's gone. There's so much to Irish whip setups and the oki that came with them I haven't even scratched the surface. But it's all gone now. They removed his GUARANTEED wall splat after Irish whip with b2,1. A huge nerf! He lost a fun pressure tool from ff+3+4 now there's no point in using it since fff+3+4 is a mid and it's easier to do while running moves. Now King can't back dash to save his life. King lost 3 diffrent unblockables. Did he really need to loose 3!? If you hit the F+1+2 unblockable at the wall you could basically get a death combo if you side walked and grabbed their feet as they fell forward. You still had to guess the ground throws to land the full combo but Now you cant even do that anymore. Since he no longer has a move that replaces his rage drive he lost an insane amount of his ground throw game. (You used to be able to get 4 ground throws back to back if they guessed wrong. Statistically unlikely to land but hype as hell if you could. Aaaannd it's gone!) Don't get me wrong, the stuff they gave him is really cool but now I keep seeing people say stuff like "now King is a real grappler." They removed so much of his throw game it's hurt player expression massively. Now it's like they want every King to do the same mix ups from his new stance and that's it... King loses so much in T8 its frustrating because I cant see any other character loose as much as king has. He looses loads of throws, multi throws, ground throw setups and all the incredible oki from them, how is nobody talking about it? If any other character lost as much as king did people would be making videos on it. But cause throws got buffed in T8 people just say "king got buffed" and ignore everything he lost. It's just tragic for people who enjoyed the 5050 game he had with multi throws and ground throws because they absolutely butchered it..
It’s funny you saying about SF6 then being not able to break command throws in Tekken 8. Maybe they’re actually trying to buff the grappler archetype in T8
Been a tekken Player since day one. Tekken 8 is like Tekken 4 again mechanics back in the day deviating from the long combos and snappy move execution. its not that bad as other people think unless those who are really new to the Tekken as a Franchise itself
about netcode, all I can tell is that mainstream games use servers. For example cs and LoL (North East Europe server, North America Server etc) and yes, changing a server can make things really messy
when it comes to FPS games in my experience, players playing from other regions into NA almost always have unplayable lag. COD and CS EU players in NA ping around 120-200ms and Asia can be the same or higher. so to answer your question mainman, i think the netcode is restricted by a 3d engine. this take is from a gamer instead of a dev/expert though.
Glad they buffed grabs. Tekken NEEDS to make it's "grappler" characters stand out. Still though, everyone in Tekken is trying to do the same thing to win a round, and I don't think Tekken's fanbase will allow them to do anything different, if Harada would get off his lazy ass to do it at all.
oh realy removed chicken? thats a shame.. I remembering evenings with a friend when we played tekken5 almost every night.. and were so tuned in to each other that the fights looked like a martial arts coography.. we sometimes had 3 chickens in a row.. chick chick chick.. we were like whaat is going on !??! felt like going into jedi mind.. and everytime I have the rare time of encounter a chicken in tekken 7 or hearing people talking about it, reminds me on these amazing tekken nights we had.. it was a great time and mood. not that it realy happened that often that it is realy impacting the gameplay (at least not on the level I play, maybe it is a bit more impacting on higher level), but it always was a great moment no matter if done by yourself or your opponent.
As someone who played the CNT, not being able to go back to T7 is super relatable. T8 just feels so CLEAN man.
T8 is far from clean especially with the effects
@@philgamer9499 You can turn them down in the settings..
@@philgamer9499 Did you watch the video? You can tone them down.
@@hot-bloodedmartialartist3900people don't know what graphics settings mean i guess
Glad I didn’t play tekken 8
should be minimum 3 unique interactions per character
shouldn't be too hard to implement and really adds personality
At this point asking for that isn't a lot considering MUCH OLDER Tekken games have more content than 7
Jack: Target acquired.
Kazuya: Huh. Must be defective. Time to see how well we've improved its combat.
@@ShadowMark3_ cold
Its not hard per sae, but based on the leaked launch roaster there are 18 characters, and that is 324 pairs, multiply that by 3 and you needed to record 972 conversation. Assuming each last 10 seconds on average thats 2.7 hours of recording. Not super expensive but it adds up quadradically. With 52 characters that is over 7 hours of recording. Again, its nice to do it, and its not extremely expensive per sae, but effort isnt exactly trivia.
@@alan133 oh shit i just checked the maths yeah that sounds crazy to do...
They need to add way more intros, give players a reason not to skip and actually admire the interaction
Exactly
Nah people are gonna skip regardless. People aren't skipping because it's not good, they skip because we've all seen the intros a million times before
@@CustomGameTrailers99 Exactly because they’ve reused the same ones from 20 years ago….. give us new ones
More intro animations would be cool, but its bound to be skipped everytime one day
@@gabrielpanagsagan9741after a week 😂
I'm glad you mentioned the character interactions. Tekken needs more. It makes it so much more immersive and interesting. Oh yes and intro and win poses!
Yeah they re used the same win poses and intros for Kazuya and it bothered me because I wanted to see something new. Or bring his ttt2 win poses back they were fire.
Tekken 8 netcode is pretty unique given its a 3D fighter. There's little comparison given MK and SF are 2D. Games like CSGO etc are usually server based connection these days not P2P connection. But P2P connection on games outside of fighter against players across the other side of the world will always suck lol.
Rollback for a 3D fighter like tekken or virtua fighter has never been really done before. No doubt Tekken 8 will be the biggest influence on how rollback is done if a new a VF game is ever announced
Also in shooters, the precise location of 2 dueling players isn't as important to be relayed to both - usually priority is given to the attacker if the other player just barely ducked behind a wall for instance, the game doesn't need to show exactly where both players were on their screens to everyone, but in T8 you both have the same perspective of both players so whenever rollback happens their positions and actions will visibly change.
fiber internet has entered the chat
@@gaijincoordinator2922 wired fiber Internet is litty
@@npc_blob1609 CSGO as EU vs NA you get 500+ ping, at minimum 150-200
Hi small unity programmer here, the amount of variables you have to manage with the netcode is exponencial from 2d and 3d. If you can have like 8-10 frames of rollback in games like gg strive, with the same code structure probably could be 2-3 frames in a 3D env.
how would you increase frames in a 3D game?
Same question as the guy above
@@pearlsbubbletea576 reducing the number of choices that the player could do, but thats not tekken at the end of the day. In my understanding of netcode, its pretty hard search for an optimization of this, probably the best choice will be that an AI record your commands to predict your next move in advance, but I dont know the performance or the time of development of this feature. Sry, this is the best that I can imagine.
@@pearlsbubbletea576 The most correct answer is "Its depend" because many things can make the game slow (be it 2D or 3D). The core foundation of optimization is to start with "finding the bottleneck". Do a CPU/GPU capture, figure out whether you are CPU or GPU bound, then start profiling, and look for bottleneck.
On CPU side, it could be as simple as bad data-structure/algorithm usage. It could also be your gameplay/physics/UI code, it could be your art assets (static mesh, skeletal mesh, cpu/gpu particle, transparency overdraw, UI, etc), or expensive rendering features (GI, AO, Reflection, Bloom, Shadows, TAA, etc). It could be anything, you can't really pin point exactly what is the problem (and what to optimize) without doing investigation. But, ultimately most things are more expensive and significantly harder to optimize in 3D than 2D space (Graphics, Physics, Math, Gameplay, 3D Animation, etc).
So that wild guess from 8-10 frames to 2-3 frames when switch from 2D to 3D is purely arbitrary, there's not enough context to make that assumption at all. With 16.67 ms frame budget for 60 fps, you can push down the graphics budget to 4 ms, you'll have 12.67 ms left, and if you can optimize your gameplay/physics tick to be within 1.267 ms, you can make 60 fps budget with 10 frames rollback on paper. In practice, you need to leave some room for vfx, UI, Audio, cpu-side rendering gpu command (overlapped multi-thread rendering vs multi-thread fork-join rendering), etc. But, there's nothing stopping you from achieving 10 frames rollback with the right optimization + compromisation in 3D P2P lock-step + rollback games.
@@sbilly17 much appreciated your knowledge buudy unlike the dude who said this quote: Hi small unity programmer here. What he said was lackluster and abysmal. As a former pc maintentance and IT Networker, I expect more from fellow nerds in the field, who should explain things in layman terms to the general public on social media like youtube. Yet your message which is thoughtful precise and nerdy as all hell which equals bad ass in my view, only gets 4 likes, yet that dude gets 62 likes. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him prophecised about things like this. The men of knowledge will be overlooked whilst the layman will put to the forefront by the ignorant. The wise will take from the ones who have true knowledge not the laymen like the majority.
the way it works is the server has to calculate the moveset's hitboxes in an entire 3d environmental x y z space. while a 2d game has to only calculate the 2d dimensional space. Optimizing is much more pleasant on a 2d space. 3d has much more complex mechanics.
Does the fact that there are 50+ move make the rollback implementation complex?
No it wouldn't effect as it will only calculate the move being executed but different moves will have different hit range and other properties so it does add some complexity but number of moves doesn't matter
It's difficult to compare the "netcode" of a fighting game vs a game like Dota, since the bigger games use servers to accommodate way more players, when it's one v one it just functions differently, and it definitely seems like t8 is still peer to peer, haven't seen anything that would suggest otherwise
Peer to peer its the standard for every fighting game. What we want is rollback netcode. Tekken seems to have it but its worse than sf6 and mortal kombat11
Removing Chicken is such a stupid idea. I remember how cool and exciting it felt back then in Tekken 3 and it was still neccessary against characters like Asuka or Paul. I wondered already during the Beta why my chicken aint working. Also the announcer was so cool. I hope they bring it back in the full game
they should add a trigger when if a player plugs after a game ends coming back to the game they would have -3k pts penalty or they would be ban in rank temporarily like 5 minutes and if they plug again 10 minutes and if another plug in a row 30 mins etc.
This needs to be a thing, there's no penalty for getting your ass beat and plugging
Sf6 amd SF5 have penalties for pluggers. it's so good
@@majorkarnage8912 pluggers need to face that they got beat up and lost so yep they need to start thinking about pluggers asap
Yeah my biggest gripe is the soundtrack for sure. I absolutely hate the character select music. The sound effects were a bit weird too. The heat engage sound effect was like a cash register bell not a fan.
Should be able to change them in customizations like we could in Tekken 7. I have had the Tekken 6 character select soundtrack from pretty much the beginning.
That one ruin stage that goes BWOM BWOM BWOM BWOM for a good 30 seconds lmao
@@dhulinko9904 Jukebox options are only on console. We didn't have that on PC :)
DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN!
@@LonelyShadowHunters We also didnt have optomisation on pc lol, should have it on release
My biggest issue with T8 is with the Heat engagers... iwish they would change the mechanic and make it optional when using moves that let you go into heat instead of forcing you to go into heat thus restricting players in terms of movesets and situational opportunities
I really hate that. Forcing players to question using key attacks is really stupid.
There could be easy solution. When player wants get heat witch that move just let him hold r1 option with attack if he wants to activate heat.
Well netcode in something like counter strike and tekken isnt the same. In counter strike there is a server in between all the connected players which filters the packets sent from the players and then it sends packets back to the players informing them on what happened in those miliseconds of sent packets.
In tekken its peer to peer, so two people connecting to each others devices. So there isnt really a man in the middle like a serve
Im a bit sad about the while running move change. It was a bit of a specialty i developed in T7. Loved using those moves surprising ppl in their face and showing off execution.
Trueeee! I have practiced it a LOT and getting complemented makes it more rewarding 🥲🥰
Trueeee! I have practiced it a LOT and getting complemented makes it more rewarding 🥲🥰
Trueeee! I have practiced it a LOT and getting complemented makes it more rewarding 🥲🥰
@@ranzudezuLRTCfacts I play Lars and although he is considered easy to play the only move that is plus on block in neutral is his wr3. I got really good at them and now it’s not that impressive anymore
When it comes to netcode, a heavier reliance on rollback frames would make certain moves like throws and launching lows damn near unstoppable with poor connections. I've noticed even with Tekken 7's limited rollback that you sometimes see a few animation frames get shaved off of moves. That'll get more extreme the more rollback frames Tekken is given (imagine for example a Dragon Tail that you only see half the animation of before it hits you).
And the movement is more twitchy and active than in a game like street fighter, footsies in a 3D space is more complex than in a 2D space. Rollback works on a prediction based system, and I think complex movement options like wavedash and backdash cancels can't be predicted by the system due to them being multi-part inputs.
That being said, I still think I'd prefer a little bit of character teleportation over the game coming to a screeching halt whenever we get a lag spike.
Everyone's gonna get sick of that character select theme in 3 months
The main difference between tekken and other 2d fighting games is that tekken has smooth animations. When rollback animation skip appears it looks bad in tekken because you expect smooth motion but you get teleportation. The 2D fighters are animated in a different way and the teleportations that happen as a result dont look as bad with that animation stlye. I still think that tekken could speed up the animation when rollback happens instead of teleporting to some frame in the middle of the animation.
True
Besides the character select music, I believe the stage music for T8 has check marked all the boxes so far and I can't wait for the rest.
I totally agree, best ost by far compared to previous TEKKEN
@@iboudekak94 T7 has a few
bangers too but T8 is pullin no punches 🤧 if T8 ends up having as many stages as T7 we're in for a treat 😂🔥
DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN
T8 character select theme is so horrible I actually cringed when i heard it.
@@memebump7612the OH OH OH part is cringe but i think the song itself is fire
Yup registered the day it was available, and never got a code. Def not giving any scalpers money for as scummy as they are. Hope there's another test open to more people.
You were a month late as they closed the registration in June if I remember correctly. They just don't know how to handle these things while having all the PSN and Steam data.
@Tnargav I signed up the day they announced registration opened in early June for PC
Agree, it hurt to miss out on cnt code, but can't stomach buying it from scum.
The fact that this is only a alpha is really good news because this cnt test was so fun. Yes it felt similar but at the same time Bandai namco has so much more to offer for this game to be the most best Tekken , in my opinion. Like it’s already really good in this state
At 2:00, this was the biggest issue for me and possibly everyone else on PC because I signed up specifically for steam alone. Those hundreds of codes that could have gone to me, you, and other pro players are now lost forever. I am so sorry for some of us not being able to play on both weekends.
The Netcode for 3d fighters hasn't been great, but also Namco bandai has never had good netcode even in it's 2D fighters. So it's a bit of column A and a bit of column B, how much of Column A is due to Column B is very muych something worth discussing but I do believe alot of it just comes down to Bamco not investing much resources into Netplay and generally being dismissive of rollback.
I love everything about 8 besides the announcer. Say what you will about tekken 7's not having instant rematch, but the announcer shouting GET READY FOR THE NEXT BATTLE BATTLE BATTLE every time makes the waiting kinda fun.
I wish the announcer was more like Tekken 6's. Big, deep and bombastic!
yeah sorry but campy "Tekkennnnnnn" doesnt work for Tekken. it would for Marvel vs Capcom, I'll mod it immediately hopefully.
@@ShadowOfMassDestructionagreed
Yeah Tekken 5/6 announcer is vastly superior to the depressed announcers of Tekken 7/8
@@ShadowOfMassDestruction Tekken 6 announcer was fantastic really unique voice
I can't forget the first ever Tekken 8 trailer it was amazing. I'm pretty sure that they are saving it for tekken 9
Is it just me or do the characters feel a lot easier now I remember Bryan and Jin having some difficult combos in Tekken 7 but now they have combos that are easy as hell to do. Law's DSS cancel was a little hard to do in tekken 7 but now in tekken 8 it's easy as hell
they want the game easier for new players tbh but i think difficult characters like steve and lee should still be hard
@@lxrd5238Lee at least should have better damage considering how hard he is to play
Well playing with Jin, yes and no. F4 has been buffed/nerfed in some ways or another. Combo definitely is a lot easier to pick up but the range has been nerfed drastically (doesn't punish death first from max range anymore and stance cancel is definitely harder). But his other combo utility and moves have been buffed like ECD1, now can be used as a table flip combo extender, hits grounded and launches.
The only thing about Bryan is that they made his while standing throw much easier to do. His combos are roughly the same, though some things have changed
The game is extremely easy now way more so then how they made 7 easier
Thanks for being informative and speculative TMM, didn't get to play the CNT so it's great to know what to expect and look forward to (or be wary of).
im 100% on board with the ft2-3 for ranked play. the reason is because it simulates tournament play, which is notoriously more aggressive compared to deathmatches, where information gathering becomes the more important factor in the long term as the set goes on. this compliments the aggressive design philosophy. also, ft2’s inherently remove the win streak counter, the win streak counter incentivizes plugging, it’s the same reason they removed loss count and win percentages which used to be visible in older tekkens, because it incentivized plugging.
player match can have unlimited rematches, where you can hone matchup knowledge etc, but ranked should be like a real spontaneous test, a ft2, who can come out on top in this single set. if you got blown up by a string youre unfamiliar with, well too bad, go figure it out outside of ranked and comeback when youre ready for it. ranked isnt supposed to be practice mode. they could even buff the ft2 to like a ft5 when you get to the god ranks. it’s far more interesting this way imo.
I got to play tekken 8 at evo. The side step buff was extremely noticeable. It was a lot of fun to either side step jet upper/electric was a lot of fun to do. I didn’t really have the time to get into the heat system or the new bound. The game was the one of the prettiest fighting games I’ve seen. No complains from me I can’t wait for the game to drop
Now you hit the nail on the head with the intros we need more variety please and more win poses come on now this is tekken 8 step your game up guys please these things are important to players it add more lore to the game 🙏🏾
RAGE ARTs had to be removed.
Including this bullshit AGAIN was a big mistake for me. They should have worked on Rage drives instead!
Its a noob mechanic, why would complain about this. It adds alot of personality and casual draw to the game
I love how people are shitting on T8 when its a better game than T7. You dont need 120 moves for every character when even Pros only use about 40-50 of them. Heat system allows people to have more flexibility with their combos. execution still has value as you can make a heat combo even better. Characters look good. Stages look good. You can pick the game and do cool stuff even if you never played Tekken.
Thankyou for asking the question. I was always curious if implementing rollback into a 3d fighting game as opposed to a 2d game that is not only old but was built with a net code specifically for Japan.
what you said about using heat to recover health being overlooked is so true. was something i was thinking about when ppl were complaining about chip damge being too much. if you really think about it, the chip damage isnt actually real damage, it’s like in a limbo state where the damage to your health bar is real but also not real at the same time, and it’s waiting to be actualized. it adds some serious depth to the game when you really think about it. i think people will eventually learn how genius the chip and recovery system is and grow to love it.
Thought I was the only one who thought the sound track wasn't that good, hella people commented on my comment on how 8 is way better then 7 music.
Rank is stored on the servers now, not locally. Edit: offline rank is stored locally.
Wow man. I put this on to have something to draw to, but ended up learning so much! Now I hope they do another closed/open beta test so I can try myself! Never played Tekken before. Great video! I can tell you pay so much attention to what's going on.
i did think the worst things about t7 were winposes/voices/character customisation. they've definitely prioritised gameplay over characterisation which is fine but i really miss the quality english voice actors from t5, good customistion and good winposes/intros which honestly put me off playing as a casual tekken player who wants the cool aesthetics/video almost as much as the good gameplay
The win poses are so lame in tekken 7 and some are still in tekken 8.
I experienced armor stagger while performing my rage art before. I was facing Lili and my startup was chopped after each of Lili's kicks.
I was really digging the soundrack. Like sf6's too
I don't know why they are pushing rage arts so much. I love everything about the game, except this. Too simple, too braindead, too strong and too long, crashing the rhythm of a fight. Noone liked it in T7, noone is gonna like it in T8. They look cool, sure, first 10 times, but do we really even need them? I'd really vote to remove it completely.
you just salty when the tables have turned on you
@@philgamer9499 I'm not salty at all
They are pushing rage arts because casuals love cinematic moves and they look good visually. Wether you like them or not all fighting games will have super cinematic types of moves because they are good for marketing
Love it when people present something subjective as complete facts...
@@heroesevolved3 keep loving
It seems like some of the problem with rollback netcode in Tekken specifically is that movements can be cancelled into each other on any frame. Part of what makes rollback work in most 2D games is that most actions will lock out your control of the character for substantial amounts of frames. Rollback always ends up being most noticeable when someone is just walking backwards and forwards. I don't think anyone playing an FPS game from one side of the world to the other would expect a good experience either tbh. It might be playable, but it would be noticeable.
For Netcode, you can't compare P2P Fighting game to Server-based game (CSGO, Dota 2, Overwatch, etc). The technical challenges are way way different.
1) P2P vs Server game: For Server, you can just do mild imprecise client prediction then snap toward incoming state from the server (server can do all the rollback then push out new states), just like a video player, most server-based games are all about faking seamless experience because they don't require frame perfect experience like fighting game (especially Dota 2 that play fine at 100 ms ping, even shooting games are faked easily with server-side rollback raycast check). Meaning that in a Server based game, you can do any random shit on the client-side, then snap to the incoming server states since you can always get the correct game state from the server, server can also be non-deterministic and imprecise since it can set whatever to be the agreed correct state.
For P2P lock-step, only inputs are exchanged, so all the game states on all machines need to be fully deterministic, and high performance enough to simulate/store locally 3-10 frames of gameplay/physics (regardless of machines), then present that state in a visual/audio form (vfx, sfx, ui, etc), implying that all the code need to be perfectly organized with clear separation of simulation vs presentation layer. 3D Animation, VFX, SFX can also be very tricky to get right during Rollback/Re-simulation (all of which are super trivial in Server based game).
2) Determinism: Floating point determinism is very difficult to achieve across all machine/os/compiler/instruction sets (almost impossible). When you rollback, and simulate forward 1-10 frames every simulation tick, your game state precision will slowly shifting off from 0.000001 to 0.000002, and eventually character moved far enough to cause desync (collision miss/hit, weird physic resolve, etc) that snowball into wrong winner. What many game does is to use Fixed-Point arithmetic, which can kind of guarantee determinism, but at a cost of performance, since CPU/GPU hardware are all optimized for floating-point arithmetic. (also, I remember Project L did a presentation that said they implemented 2D physics/gameplay with fully fixed point math)
3) 3D Physics: Most 3D physics engine out there are written with floating at the based level (optimized hand-placed SIMD), 2D physics are way way easier than 3D physics (math, data-structure/algorithm, optimization), and can run way way faster, which is also why 2D fighting game are much easier to write than 3D fighting game. Rewriting the whole 3D physics engine into Fixed-point math is hard, which is why Tekken 8 still using floating-point based physics engine (referring to T8 Harada tweet that said floating point math is still a concern for desync issue).
4) Performance Requirement: To support rollback, all gameplay and physics logic are not only need to be fully deterministic, but also need to be highly optimized, enough to run 3-10 times in a single tick. All Math code are way more expensive in 3D space than 2D and they're all present in every gameplay/physics code, amplify that by 3-10 simulations per tick which can all be significant. Its just overall trickier to optimize 3D game than a 2D one. Also, Rollback can be very CPU intensive that take away budget from GPU side, and if you're trying to push for better visual fidelity like T8, its very hard to guarantee that it'll run well on all variety of PC machines.
For me, I feel like both Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 has some of their cleanest character models to date, however I got to say that Street Fighter 6 animates their characters way better than Tekken 8 does. Bandai namco is working with a whole new graphics engine right now and yet their characters faces. Still animate like sock puppets while Street fighters characters look both clean and very expressive. I hope they improve on their characters Animations when the game comes out.
Rollback is the best solution for instant netcode period but can't work on pretty much anything but a fighting game.
If two players disconnect from each other, we can just simulate what would have happened if the game wasn't lagging based on when they hit their buttons
Let's say in CS: GO we have 2 opposing players:
The Skiller is holding mid with his AWP. He will always kill the first person to cross or push without fail, using a different method for each
The Lagger is playing from the other side of the world and will always try push mid to go for the kill but lag at the last moment.
With the current netcode, the Lagger will simply cross against his will, the Skiller will react, and the Lagger will be killed.
If we decide to implement rollback netcode the situation changes drastically as it splits into two.
For the Skiller, he will see the Lagger cross and kill him.
For the Lagger, he will see himself push through mid and kill the Skiller
If we simply base it on inputs and re-simulate the game, we'll see the Lagger walk through mid and shoot the Skiller, who is shooting at a wall
Now you hopefully see why rollback can't work in an FPS, and can extrapolate this knowledge to other games. But you might have noticed something. Tekken doesn't suffer from these problems. The only way I can see Tekken 8 rollback being impossible is if they tied the game's logic to a timer. Doing this can be a great short term solution for an indie project, for example if all you had to code was Kazuya's electric, you could do it easily by telling the game engine "If Kazuya hits his EWGF, the enemy will rise for half a second, then fall for half a second." But if you use this form of logic, then try to implement rollback, you will get terrible results when trying to simulate situations in 0.01 second. Combos dropping for no reason, certain moves not doing anything at all, unfixable game-breaking issues that would show up constantly. This is just a theory but I feel like it could be the reason.
Thank you MainDaddySwe for your lovely review ❤
44:32 "147 kg of juiced up manhood just going "boof" on Lucky Chloe"
- TheMainMainSWE 2023
They did talk about on the feedback that they were going to look at widening that gap on CH throws. So that will change
Im not to sure why people are mad about rage arts. Its suppose to be strong. Its a rage art.
Regarding Rage Arts - they are so OP, I wish they would make them as in Mk11 - once per match, not once per round, that way the gameplay pace wont suffer and there would an actually strategy wheter to use them or not
I definititly agree with T8 looking far better than MK1.
Those animations and the focus on hyper realism really hinder MK's potential
If I’m really being honest, both look realistic. Mk1 looks next gen same for tekken 8.
@@dark_nightwing_xl2797 T8 definititly doesn't look realistic...just look at the female characters!
@@ShikiRyougi05 so you want them old looking with wrinkles? EW
@@philgamer9499 bro what 💀
@@ShikiRyougi05 what’s wrong with them?
Don`t know why people dislike tekken 8 music. Personally i didnt find any music that i don`t like. We need remember that there will be more stages, that mean more type of music. I like that every music from tekken is associate with the stage, that creates more immersive gameplay. If they suddenly change music to one of stages from cnt that would be kinda stupid, the music should stay regardless how much people like it.
🤓
i would consider sidestepping and low parrying to be aggressive defense.... fits their goal
Hitsmash is designed to fit with their new special command mode. It also helps the new player having a big string that they can use and not deep dive directly into hard combos
Wonderful coverage/review of the CNT MainMan! The best Tekken content on TH-cam period.
It's so funny to hear people talk about chip damage, back in the day when I did versus against friends, we always had chip on to avoid turtling, it was super fun
As much as I like character interaction, I'd prefer if they kept it random. After a while it will get old once you know what they're going to do or say for *every* character. Preset "universal" intros have more lasting value if you play the game alot.
Loving the small edits
I thought the music was forgettable as well except the Arena theme, they really picked the right music for the trailers. I wish they would do character themes again.
I think the thing with Tekken and rollback has to largely do with the fact that the fastest moves are 10 frames vs 2D's 3 or 4 frames. The rollback on a 3D fighter may be more visually apparent. To my knowledge, no 3D fighter on the market has implemented rollback.
I think the best of 3 thing, for ranked matches are completely fine because it encourages you to make friends, and play privately.
It takes away how toxic online ranked is atm.
But I definitely want casual play to have unlimited rematch
Didn’t expect to agree on almost all points with you, we need a new tekken not a tekken 7.5, only disagreeing with the soundtrack, I loved that especially rebel hangar, sanctum and the last round on the Times Square stage
I liked soundtracts too but not character select screen theme.
I did not agree on Long Combos in Tekken 8 imo they are great. Damages could be nerfed. I played games with longer combos. If combos are look cool no need to worry abouth length
If they add Tifa as guest character in Tekken 8 this will be the best Tekken game so far 🔥
Most MOBA games like DotA have servers per location. There is an option to connect to other Servers even though its not your location, but its not good experience.
I guess its on the 2D vs 3D thing, since there are a lot of 2D Fighting Games compared to 3D so somebody has already developed good codes for 2D Netcode.
And on a simple term, remember 3D is like a composition of multiple 2Ds, which makes Rollbacks and all other things harder to predict or set what happens.
The fact that he's singing seven nation army is really funny
I wish rage arts did less damage. Not sure how I feel about heat
No matter what you do, half of the playerbase will freak out. Change things and half of the players say that it's "not Tekken anymore". Don't change things and half of the players say "this is just Tekken 7.5". I'm glad to see massive changes. You don't know what works until you try it and it looks to me that they're trying a lot of new things. Can't wait to see how they work out and what the future of Tekken will be after.
They already confirmed CH throw break window will be increased. Harada also mentioned the bo3 was only for CNT because they wanted better testing data and backdash is being looked at as well.
I play valorant a lot and living in the uk I only select London, France and Germany to have lowest pings. An option like that would be great rather than just 3,4 and 5
Implementation wise, 3D shouldn't have an impact. Rollback doesn't really care about what the players' inputs do, just about sending/receiving them and saving/loading the game state. I have a hunch that potentially, the Tekken engine doesn't handle starting animations on later frames that well, a requirement for larger rollback windows. This could be why they limit rollback window to what it is and add delay to smooth out the experience. Could be that they have the hitboxes and hurtboxes tied to the animations, so slight changes in the animations would change game properties, meaning inconsistent network situation would make some interactions inconsistent. Another thing that is generally recommended, is that you have no sudden visual changes in the first few frames of something. For example, in Fightcade SF3S, you can get a KO screen, the game roll back, and have the opponent block your killing blow. Could be that the particle system causes issues with this. Could also be that despawning particles is hard if those are done a certain way on the GPU. None of those are really a 3D specific issues, but engine issues. Implementing rollback is not easy if you have decades of code and a team familiar with the current architecture.
For older 2d games, modern machines are powerful enough to store the entire state of the game for each frame and then roll back by loading one of those. This is how fightcade and guilty gear ac+r rollback systems work iirc. For newer games like Strive and SF6, the game was built with rollback in mind, so the internal data representations are probably intentionally made in a way where it's easy to store and load the game state. There is a bit of an awkward middle ground with games like Guilty Gear Xrd and Tekken 7, where rollback wasn't quite as well established when they were being developed, so the people making the hard to change decisions early on could easily miss something and build the game on a foundation that is incredibly hard to add rollback to. Adding rollback to these games is not impossible, as Arcsys seems hell-bent on proving (god bless them), but it probably costs a lot of time and effort. Depending on how much they actually redid from scratch, Tekken 8 could be in the same camp as SF6, or fall into the middleground if it takes too much from Tekken 7. So far it seems like they've at the very least fixed the low hanging fruits, but the long term quality is still somewhat up in the air.
I've been developing an indie fighting game for a few years now, hopefully alpha soon™. A lot of this is based on my recent pains with animations and networking.
Im actually surprised that Tekken 8 visuals works flawlessly in a Steam Deck
13:23 I've never laughed that hard at a TMM vid before lmao
Same😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Maybe you should only have access to chip damage when you're in heat. Either use heat to apply chip damage or use heat to regain health for the counter
This was an awesome review, I am glad that you gave away some of the test codes you were given. That's an awesome thing. I think the only thing I am kind of worried about is the recoverable health. That soft kills the hype slo-mo finishes (even if many were just jabs). That's my biggest issue on the presentation (even more than the awful music). I do like how they are doing Heat and I can't wait to see what more is discovered about it. I am still wondering if there's a point to doing EWHF with Jin since WHF launches
I played the CNT on a friends account and I got his save, so no saves are not fully local now, but they are still on your PC (appdata/local/polaris)
Thats just steam cloud saves, this wouldve happened with tekken 7 too
@@masterminecraft333 o really
I like the new arcade machine intro. Keep up the good work. Eish
CSGO has interpolation which is almost exactly like rollback
The 3D aspect is just 1 more movement axis, not a big load network wise
I didnt get to play the CNT. I just hope from what im seeing either they tone way down the damage and frames or give more defensive options in movement or whatever.
The game looks like a solitaire now. When you have chip damage, oppressive frames and properties on mids and highs, why do u need lows that give plus frames on top of that? And im saying this as a Bryan main. I would be fine with them removing hatchet if the moves r this oppressive.
Looks like is very easy to get overwhelmed by pressure and to me it looks like its too much now. They made FFF easier to do but still didn’t implement an easier way then KBD to get out of the way? I dont understand. Im saying this as someone who practiced the shit out of the KBD, just make it easy to do and let me move away from the oppressive moves.
skill issue
@@bananajoe7365 nice argument brother
13:23 fucking hilariously on point criticism
Yeah 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
The only change I want to see with heat is the whole making the opponent block keeps the heat timer still for obnoxious chip damage like from hwao and instead change it so that’s removed and give the player the ability to manually turn off their heat and save the remaining time they have with it for later on it would easily sort the issue out whist adding a layer to heat at the same time
in games like counter strike, valorant, league of legends there are servers dedicated to a geografical location. For example, people from NA play on NA server, people from Europe play on EU server. You cannot play cross server, unless there is a international competition and then all players from different countries fly to one country to play LAN (Local network). However, the player from NA can join other servers to play, but the ping (time until data arrives from other location) will increase dramatically. The further the server, the higher the ping, and therefore America vs Poland not viable in those games. Ping can be few hundreds, which is unplayable. The gatekeeper here is not the company, but the internet technology, sadly not yet fits the need.
Work in the tech field, with work in some indie development.
It's got more to do with animation style. If your animations use a lot of keyframes and can't cancel into a whole bunch of other animations and there's a built in delay between inputs and visuals, rollback net code works very well. You can work in the input delay and the key frames to your advantage. This is why rollback doesn't work well for Smash Brothers even though it's a 2D game.
Just to explain it clearly, in Street Fighter, when Ryu uses his neutral mP, it has a 6 frame start up but because the game uses keyframes for the animation, rollback can miss frames 1-5 and it doesn't look jank. Most players won't even notice the drop. In Tekken if Kazuya's jab just skipped the first 5 frames it looks super jank.
The smooth nature of the movement also impacts it a lot. Street fighter movement options are almost all hard commits too. Outside of shimmies, any dash will be the same every time. Tekken's movement is fluid, the characters able to cancel movement options from one to another very fast. There is no KBD in Street Fighter, for example. You have, again, a very similar situation in Smash which is why rollback just sucks for both of these games.
Rollback wouldn't work for Street Fighter if you could cancel a forward dash into a back jump into a crouch into a backdash into a forward jump. You'd see characters teleporting around the screen and I'm sure that Namco probably saw exactly that happening with Tekken movement when they tried to implement rollback in their game.
Great explanation
I really enjoy watching your videos!! You are TheMainMan!! =) Greetings Andreas from Sweden
Hey TMM. I have a ps5 and play on controller, what arcade stick is compatible?
I remember way back when TMM reacted to Leffens Tekken review and he was a bit perplexed at how in depth it went into all things non-gameplay related, I think he even made fun of it a bit.
Funny how today TMM seems to do an extremely in depth review much like Leffens from long ago.
I think the problem with fully adding rollback to tekken wouldn’t a playability issue rather a look issue it would make tekken looks goofy and weird af in motion.
i hope that people who work for tekken 8 see this video and listen to tmm's opinions because what he's speaking makes sense and good ideas
MK1 (and every MK game in the past and forever into the future) will forever be janky. Why? Because NRS can't animate for shit. They have extremely high production values and budget but when it comes to their animation, ugh... not sure who or what they have on staff but they really need an entire new animation team.
Exactly!
Why does it matter that the game looks beautiful, when the animations look like absolute garbage
I imagine they did the cnt specifically to get data on how the netcode preforms so they can improve it.
With shooters they can cheat the net code a lot more to make the connections work. The types of interactions are a lot simpler don’t need the speed/precision of a fighter.
I just noticed the colosseum stage was not in the cnt
36:05 They added a lot of new moves.
But King lost more moves than any other character!
King lost so much of his grapple game in T8 it's actually upsetting.
He also lost a ridiculous number of setups and oki.
By removing his crouch multi throw you can no longer do jag2 into multi throw.
They removed the only safe and GUARANTEED way to attempt a multi throw, it is honestly such an incredible nerf I can't believe more people aren't talking about it!
They also removed the full crouch multi throw.
(Since df+1+3 and df+2+4 have a specific crouch throw animation they might have just killed those multi throws since everyone and their grandmothers are going to duck it then launch punish it once they have seen it a few times)
They removed his Irish whip extensions so you loose 3 diffrent guaranteed ground throw setups! 3!!!
(2 in the open with Irish whip 3+4 and 2+4, and 1 at the wall from regular Irish whip without an extension. All had incredible oki after. Not anymore, cause they removed it.)
Irish whip 2+4 gave you 2 guaranteed ground throw attempts back to back and oki that could launch them if they held back to get up after. Now it's gone.
There's so much to Irish whip setups and the oki that came with them I haven't even scratched the surface.
But it's all gone now.
They removed his GUARANTEED wall splat after Irish whip with b2,1. A huge nerf!
He lost a fun pressure tool from ff+3+4 now there's no point in using it since fff+3+4 is a mid and it's easier to do while running moves.
Now King can't back dash to save his life.
King lost 3 diffrent unblockables. Did he really need to loose 3!?
If you hit the F+1+2 unblockable at the wall you could basically get a death combo if you side walked and grabbed their feet as they fell forward. You still had to guess the ground throws to land the full combo but
Now you cant even do that anymore.
Since he no longer has a move that replaces his rage drive he lost an insane amount of his ground throw game.
(You used to be able to get 4 ground throws back to back if they guessed wrong. Statistically unlikely to land but hype as hell if you could. Aaaannd it's gone!)
Don't get me wrong, the stuff they gave him is really cool but now I keep seeing people say stuff like "now King is a real grappler."
They removed so much of his throw game it's hurt player expression massively.
Now it's like they want every King to do the same mix ups from his new stance and that's it...
King loses so much in T8 its frustrating because I cant see any other character loose as much as king has.
He looses loads of throws, multi throws, ground throw setups and all the incredible oki from them, how is nobody talking about it?
If any other character lost as much as king did people would be making videos on it. But cause throws got buffed in T8 people just say "king got buffed" and ignore everything he lost.
It's just tragic for people who enjoyed the 5050 game he had with multi throws and ground throws because they absolutely butchered it..
I ain't reading all that
Happy for you
Or sorry that happened
King is the perfect example of 25 years of Tekken movelist bloat. Glad his shenanigans are being somewhat simplified.
12:31
Bruh. That’s Seven Nation Army you’re singing 😅😅😅
Facts I was thinking the same thing 😂
It’s funny you saying about SF6 then being not able to break command throws in Tekken 8. Maybe they’re actually trying to buff the grappler archetype in T8
Been a tekken Player since day one. Tekken 8 is like Tekken 4 again mechanics back in the day deviating from the long combos and snappy move execution. its not that bad as other people think unless those who are really new to the Tekken as a Franchise itself
about netcode, all I can tell is that mainstream games use servers. For example cs and LoL (North East Europe server, North America Server etc) and yes, changing a server can make things really messy
Eagerly waiting for your reaction to the EVO 2023 Vegas tournament!
when it comes to FPS games in my experience, players playing from other regions into NA almost always have unplayable lag. COD and CS EU players in NA ping around 120-200ms and Asia can be the same or higher.
so to answer your question mainman, i think the netcode is restricted by a 3d engine. this take is from a gamer instead of a dev/expert though.
Glad they buffed grabs. Tekken NEEDS to make it's "grappler" characters stand out.
Still though, everyone in Tekken is trying to do the same thing to win a round, and I don't think Tekken's fanbase will allow them to do anything different, if Harada would get off his lazy ass to do it at all.
Having a mechanically diverse cast is so good for long term success, Tekken X Street Fighter would've been so good for the series
Bro, I play dota 2 and CS:GO here from Australia and I'm always getting Russian players.
Love 'em especially the voice comms.
And yes, it's smooth.
oh realy removed chicken? thats a shame.. I remembering evenings with a friend when we played tekken5 almost every night.. and were so tuned in to each other that the fights looked like a martial arts coography.. we sometimes had 3 chickens in a row.. chick chick chick.. we were like whaat is going on !??! felt like going into jedi mind.. and everytime I have the rare time of encounter a chicken in tekken 7 or hearing people talking about it, reminds me on these amazing tekken nights we had.. it was a great time and mood. not that it realy happened that often that it is realy impacting the gameplay (at least not on the level I play, maybe it is a bit more impacting on higher level), but it always was a great moment no matter if done by yourself or your opponent.