Cuiv, I follow several TH-cam Astrophotographers and have learned so much from all of them however, I have to say I learn so much more from you. Thank you for what you do with such passion, it's truly infectious in a good way.
You put all the answers to questions I had about duo narrowband filters in general into one video. Thanks. This video should be way higher up in the results for people researching about multi band filters.
Thanks! I'm using the Antlia 5nm dual band filters now for Ha/O3 and S2/Hb. They work pretty well in Bortle 5-6 but I find that I need 2x the data with the S2/Hb filter. I like the results.
Excellent Video ! Astroblender touched on Filter issues related to Optical speeds but really didn't know what was going on . You have finally uncovered the physics of the issue . Very interesting and important . Thanks and we all hope you are feeling better ./SRK
Hi Cuiv, I use the same Sharpstar61 scope with the ASI533MC and got the L-Extreme filter recently. Your information was priceless to me and so many others. I always find new information from watching your channel. You always keep it real. I like that you haven`t taken the commercial advertising route as so many of the others have today. I owe you a Rasa if I ever come into a few quid. Your channel is a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
Once again, an amazing video with so much great info. So glad you are making videos again. My plans for coming to Toyko to perform a Vulcan Mind Meld are now on hold now that you are back in business on TH-cam.
I have an IDAS NBZ and use it with my Redcat or my 8" RC with a QHY247C. It's a fantastic filter and I have to say that IDAS/HuTech is a stand-up company. I purchased an NBX as soon as it came out. There were some issues with halos around brighter stars. They went back to the drawing board and the NBZ was born. If you bought an NBX and have proof of purchase, you can request a replacement NBZ filter and they'll send it to you for FREE. Not many companies would do that.
Great video! I agree with your assessment. I have nearly all of the Optolong and Astronomik filters (2" and clip in) I'm in a Bortle 4/5 and the L extreme and L enhance both work very well for me especially when using my 120mm skywatcher esprit (Starizona FR) and my QHY 268C. I've tried my IR cut and compared what I get and it seems to follow logic. I get great images if I'm imaging north (into a bortle 1-ish area) with the IR cut and if I'm imaging to the south I'm going through a Bortle 2 or so and the narrowband filters really do help. I've avoided the higher end filters because what I'm getting really looks as good as anything with similar equipment and seeing on Astrobin.
Thanks for this very useful information. I have just bought my first OSC astronomy camera (533 size sensor) for deep sky imaging. This will be used mostly with either a Samyang 135 f2 lens or a William Optics GT81 refractor (I have my mono camera more or less permanently set up with a cat51). I will probably go for the L-Extreme but have also looked at the Altair Astro dual band filter as I already use their 7nm Ha and OIII filters with my mono camera. I also have a Sky Tech dual band clip filter for my unmodified SSLR. this seemed to be OK on targets such as M42 at Bortle 5 or 6, but at light polution levels above this it doesn't work that well ( to be fair it probably works a lot better with a modified or dedicated astronomy DSLR )
I currently own the L-Enhance, L-eXtreme and the Triad Ultra Quad, and the Triad wins hands down (in my opinion). Even at the price point I would say it's a no brainer. I've owned a ton of gear while in this hobby and most of it offers slight improvements over other gear, but nothing jaw dropping. The Triad was one of the few items I've bought where I was truly blown away by it, even over the L-eXtreme. At the end of the day though I think it matters less about the numbers and specs and more about what the person is looking for in their images, and how well does that filter align with that. To me the Triad Ultra produced an image that was better than I even imagined in my head. I can't tell you exactly what it is about the images it produces that I like so much more than the L-eXtreme. For all I know the added cost of the filter has a placebo effect on me and makes me see the images as better than they are. Whatever it is, it made me fall in love with this hobby all over again. I'm in a Bortle 8 for what it's worth.
Very interesting! Have you photographed galaxies or other objects that require a wider band, from your area? I also live in the middle of a city and was thinking that this hobby may not be worth it cause of my area
have you tried 3nm filters with mono camera? You will be truly blown away. I have never used OSC for NB nebula images since I got astrodon 3nm filter sets and 1600MM (later 294MM)
@@MegaFrenzyman No, I'm trying to hold off as long as possible. I live in the 5th cloudiest city in the United States, we average over 300 days of clouds per year. So the time I do have to image can be very limited. With OSC I'm able to at least produce a color image with very little data. I know for a fact that I will love mono better, but I also know that I'll have targets that are missing data and unable to be processed for a while. Even though the mono would require less integration time to produce an equally impressive image, I can get a processable image with only a single sub using OSC (it would look terrible, but it would have color haha)
@@ntt2k I have used it to take pictures of galaxies, but only to add HA data to my targets. I shoot all my galaxies with the Optolong L-Pro, which is a great filter for wide band. After I have enough images and I'm happy with the wideband data, I'll use the L-eXtreme or the Triad Ultra and collect more data. I then separate the red channel from the narrowband data and blend it into my wideband image. This allows you to see all the natural-ish color from the L-Pro but also see the vibrant reds that are spread throughout the galaxy as well.
I just caught the Chernobyl reference. lol Love it. I really enjoy going back on these videos and compiling more and more info into my brain. I just got a Raspi with astroberry and got my rig built up. Canon dslr with a redcat 51. Still so much to learn. Your content and knowledge is appreciated by many!
Great video as always Cuiv! 👍 And good to see you without the brace, hope you’re feeling better! I recently bought the IDAS NBZ filter myself, and find it very good from a Bortle 6/7 back garden. Using it on my F/5 Newt and was blown away. Only had one night with it though so far due to the damn UK weather! 😡 One thing you forgot to mention with the NBZ is it was re-designed from the ashes of the NBX, which suffered greatly with star halos. Not with the NBZ! I’ve tried the L-eXtreme before and found that star halos were a problem on certain bright stars. Not with the NBZ, even in 10 minute exposures!!!
Hi Quiv. Thanks for another great video. Hope you are healing well from your accident. I have just a couple of comments. 1) h-beta is not really a mirror of h-alpha. It comes from a different energy state transition. It may be a complication when processing a multi-band pass filter, but it is a distinct signal which depends on the target. 2) 5nm (for h-beta) is < 2% of the visible spectrum. You should not be so stressed about this contribution to your signal for the Racism Quad (the price on the other hand is another matter). 3) as you mention in the beginning, focal ratio is very important, especially if using really short fr. Most, but not all folks using a RASA should know that there are specialty filters for fr=2. I own an L-Enhance (and an L-Pro2) and both work well for my bortle 7ish skies. Your photos are stunning and your videos are very helpful. Thanks. Bob
Thanks for the feedback! On 1. I agree - although from my experience with visual Hb filters, they reveal structures that are very close to pictures in H-alpha, it feels close to a clone to me (certainly not as different as Ha is from OIII) 2) 5nm or
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Hi Quiv. Thanks for all the great videos. I have only been doing this for a couple of years and I can't imagine starting this hobby 10 or 15 years ago when great instructional videos were few and far between. Hope you are healing well and will soon be able to take astrophotos with out so much discomfort.
Hi Quiv. I had a eureka moment while thinking about your experience with the 5nm bandwidth having a significant impact. I was comparing the 5nm to the width of the entire visible spectrum. If you are using a filter which has three 5nm wide pass zones, then I should have compared the 5nm to a total of 15nm (in other words, 33% not 2%). Thanks again, Bob
Have taken some nice shots with the L-eNhance and my ZWO ASI071MC. I live in Bortle 7 but tend to use this combo only during the short summer nights when there is not enough dark hours to shoot full Ha-OIII-SII with a mono camera. OSC with any multi-band filter usually results in red and blue nebula. Mono cams and true NB filters always capture more signal, plus you can do Hubble Palette. But wish I did have the L-eXtreme, which came out just shortly after the L-eNhance. Oh, and wishing you a speedy and complete recovery from your recent health challenges. God bless!
Great to see you back! This by far the best review of narrowband filters. I will go with the L-extreme. You made it all sound so simple. Maybe it has always been. THANKS
Brilliant explanations Cuiv! Landed up on your channel for explanation on N.I.N.A. and now I get some of the best informative content on astrophotography here!
I have not tried that filter, but do own the Altair Quad Band filter. This filter is relatively affordable and so far am satisfied with results at F/3+ to ~F/7. Have not tried it in the RASA yet. The 35nm bandwidth around the transmission lines seems to fly in the face of more extreme narrow passbands but the results are good so far under Bortle 5-6 skies. I intend to compare it back to back with the Triad Quad Ultra, same target, same optical train. More testing required.
Hi Cuiv, glad you’re recovering, if somewhat slower than you (and we) would like, from your accident, and thanks for maintaining your infectious enthusiasm! Your explanation of bandwidths, and especially your interpretation of the importance (or not) of S and Hb signals was very clear. I have the Optolong L-Pro, L-eNhance and now L-eXtreme which in my Bortle 5 skies might not be needed except for the 4 yellow streetlights that play into the ‘backyard’. However, I have also added a UV/IR blocking filter for when I’m away from the lights, because the ASI533 is prone to blue star bloat due to its IR sensitivity when I’m not using one of the Optolongs.
Salut Cuiv Heureux que tu sois de retour ! Je partage tout à fait ton choix. J’ai pu faire des prises assez fantastique de la nébuleuse d’Orion avec le L Extreme avec simplement une petite Takahashi FS 60CB, montée sur une Skywatcher AZ GTE, depuis le centre ville de Douai, sous un lampadaire (!), par une nuit avec une lune assez pleine. Ok, c’était la nébuleuse d’Orion mais j’ai été bluffé par le résultat.
Hello Cuiv, fantastic video! Thank you for your theoretical approach. One thing I'd like to note if you don't mind, and it's in regards to the Optolong L-eNhance vs L-eXtreme. I noted in one of my video that I think the L-eNhance is better suited for dSLR's because of their lack of cooling. The L-eXtreme, in my experience, IS a better filter, as long as your camera is cooled to deal with the longer exposure necessary with that filter. The L-eXtreme may introduce too much thermal noise when paired to dSLRs, especially older ones. Anyways, awesome video! Thanks for posting this! P.S. it would be great if we could collaborate. My sky is quite crap as well, I live in San Francisco, so my skies are as garbage as yours in Tokyo 😃.
Hello, thanks for the feedback! I watched the part of video about when you compare the filters. It seems you're falling into the same trap that many (including me) have fallen into before: thinking that you *have to/need to* expose longer on narrower bandpasses. That's a common mistake of users going from 7nm narrowband to 3nm narrowband filters as well. Using narrower band passes means you *can* expose longer not that you *have to* expose longer (just like going to a super dark sky - you can expose much longer but you don't have to). Sure you won't have optimized the signal to read noise ratio but it's better than going ham on the thermal noise. The useful signal from the nebula is still the same per unit of time and surface area regardless of the bandpass (assuming no other useful & significant signal lines are included in the wider bandpass) - but you're capturing less light pollution at the same time. We see this with normal monochrome imaging as well with users going from 7nm to 3nm and complaining they have to expose longer because the image is darker and their mount or guider can't keep up - they don't have to, the narrower bandpass gives them the option to do so (and yes exposing longer with a cooled camera will bring better results). But even for the same exposure time, the darker looking image of the 3nm filter for instance will have better SNR and better contrast. But this is an interesting topic, I may make a video about this! As for a collab, let me know if you have a good idea!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I'm learning something new everyday. Thank you for that! What a well thoughtout, well put-together respond. It makes total sense! I'm really glad you pointed that out to me. Because despite having "upgraded" to the L-eXtreme, I kept the L-eNhance around for dSLR imaging. Now I am interested in testing out this theory. And with your quick advice, I may be able to prove myself wrong as well! :) As for the collaboration, I will send you a message through one of your social media channel. I hope that's ok. Let's talk soon! :)
Great video. Glad to see you back at it. Hope you're healing well. Ive thought about the Triad filters and now very glad with my decision to purchase the Optolong filters. Great information.
I can say with my hyperstar the IDAS NB1 works great even at F2 OSC but I bought the Badder F2 optimized mono filters for my 1600mm and they are awesome!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I've got L-eXtreme, IDAS NBZ and a set of Baader f/2 filters. I can confirm L-eXtreme does not work with f/2 (I've got hyperstar) systems, IDAS NBZ - works fine, but the best result I get with specialized Baader filters + mono camera. I wish there was some kind of automation like filter wheel for RASA-like systems.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I use Celestron 8SE SCT with Celestron electronic focuser. So, it's either autofocus in NINA or special hinged Bahtinov mask and do the focusing myself. The second proves to be faster, also I do not need any automation as typically my sessions in hyperstar f/2 configuration are pretty short (less than 2 hours).
Great to see you back. You had us scared for your health. I have a Rasa {both 8 and 14} and in a Bortle 5 the L-extreme does not work. The shift is too much. However I shoot very short exposures. If I put that filter on my refractor it works fantastic. I refuse to give up short exposures because of cloud/fog issues here on the coast.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Also, note that Baader makes a set of filters that is shifted in spectrum to work with Fast optics. They have not to my knowledge tried that with multipass. Again glad to see you back, be well.
I have the ZWO duo band (because I'm cheap and poor) but just for the record if you don't own any narrowband filter and you got light pollution issues, even the ZWO duo band would make a world of difference. I have other light pollution filters that I tried that deploy a different technique to reduce light pollution, but even the cheapest of all narrowband filters will make a world of difference. Save your light pollution filters for broadband targets like galaxies and star clusters and deploy a narrow band for emission nebulae. I also use Baader moon/skyglow, which is rather a uv-ir cut filter on steroids. It does cut some of the sky glow or moon glow but no match for a narrow band filter.
Great video (again) I think your theory stacks up! I'm Bortle 6 and I've just converted to a tri-band 35nm Oxygen + H beta & 12nm Ha huge improvement on generic CLS filter - mostly due to blocking out more light pollution. I think I'll be looking out for a narrow dual narrow band in the future!
Thanks for this video Cuiv! It is helping me get a better understanding of what to consider when buying a filter. Have you seen Optlong must have watched this and just released the L-ultimate which is 3nm bandpass 😂
Interesting, SVBony came out with their version of duo narrowband filter, they also chose the 7nm band pass for Ha and OIII as you’ve recommended. SV220, for $120, so less than half the price of L-extreme and a reasonable budget option. I’ve been testing this out lately from my bortle 7 home with Pacman nebula and getting good results. Thanks for the video.
Cuiv, very good video. I like your videos because it seems like although you repeat beeing lazy, you are yet clever :-) From my pov those filters are narrowband filters in first place and not LP filters. Once you see it from that standpoint, you can make different argumentations: Broader bandpasses allow more light (e.g. Hbeata and SII) to reach the sensor, hence you should get a better snr (in good sky quality circumstances), BUT you get less contrast (and you dont get any seperation anymore due to the bayer matrix). So thats why (again in my opinion) people are fastly convinced of tighter bandpasses because they are simply more contrasty. A caveat of duo narrowband filters is something you mentioned as well: The moon has more of a negativ impact on the blue/green OIII Line, cause the moonlight is coloring the sky blue (as the sunlight does). Thats why with a mono camera OIII ften is captured during new moon, whereas you can image SII and Ha in moonlight. You clearly can see it if you start imaging before moon rise. When the moon rises you see the pollution in the green/blue parts of the image. So thats anyway a problem, independent from broad or tight bandpasses. Anyway i agree and would love to see a tight duo narrowband filter just passing Ha and OIII. And i am very curious about that IDAS Filter but it seems to be hard to get, at least in germany. It is listed already on dealers websites, but with delivery dates somewhere in the future. Ah yes and you forgot oe: The STC Dou Narrowband, which was on the market long before the LXtreme :-) BTW. glad you are back on track!
I agree, astrophotocologne. I own the STC Duo-Narrowband filter and it's a great filter. Much better than my ZWO Duo-Bandfilter but I got this last one as a bonus when I bought my ZWO ASI 533MC Pro, so I won't complain :-). And it's not a bad filter after all. But with the filter from ZWO, I get halos around bright stars (for ex, Eastern Veil Nebula). With the one from STC, I don't have that problem. Unfortunately, the STC Duo-Narrowband filter is often overlooked. Although several vendors say it's better quality than the Optolong, but I can't compare because I don't have one.
@@beatriceheinze2294 i used both but couldn´t compare them one on one. The STC is of the same if not better quality as the L-Xtreme. Some say the STC is more sensitive to Ha whereas the Xtreme more to OIII.
Cuiv, thanks for one more superinformative and senseful video. And many thanks for coming back to the channel with this new energy. It's great to see you again with new video pills almost every other day. I was super excited when you touched the point of the bandpass shift on fast telescopes, because I'm imaging with a SCT 9.25 using both Hyperstar f2.3 and f6.3 focal reducer configurations, and I own a mix of fast and standard Baader NB filters (Highspeed for Ha, and std 7-8nm for OIII and SII). As you said, all of them work quite well in both configurations, but I guess not in optimal way in both (Ha should make its best at f2.3 and OIII and SII should do it at f.6.3) but since I cannot compare with others, I cannot say how much they are affected. I wanted however to understand the effect of the fast optical system and, while you provide certain interesting details, I must say I still don't get full understanding. On one side you explained how the different angle of the light coming from the outer part of the telescope lens/mirrow gets blocked by the filter, with the effect of an smaller effective aperture (you lose part of the system "fastness"), but looking at IDAS filter graphs you can see a real shift of the banpass central wavelength towards the blue side.. So my understanding question is whether the effect is a reduction of the effective aperture of the telescope? or actually a shift to a bluer wavelength of the filter bandpass, which may leave the Ha, OII or SII emission wavelength partly or totally out of the filter bandpass? Thanks again for all your work with these videos!!!
It is indeed a shift to a bluer wavelength of the filter bandpass, which may leave the Ha, OII or SII emission wavelength partly or totally out of the filter bandpass (more pronounced at edge of scope) - this means you're losing more and more signal as you go to the edge of the scope objective, therefore closing the aperture for the useful signal... but keeping it wide open for light pollution!
Hey Cuiv! - This is a subject I've followed along with myself too so I can appreciate the accuracy of information you have provided for people, bravo! :-) I couldn't help but notice the VR headset on the side there by the way, brilliant to see! I love VR :-) (especially Beat Saber!!)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek That's brilliant! :D I gave real thought to a Reverb G2 as they are excellent!! In the end though for my playspace, the Quest 2 (vr desktop wireless pcvr) ended up replacing my RIft S entirely, - so happy! :-)
Excellent video, it was very interesting , i totally agree with your opinion and your suggestions regarding the filters bands pass. I hope you are felling better 😎
Thanks Jim! I think Hb probably makes sense once you get to a lower Bortle zone, as there is some signal indeed. But I really don't like that it lets in all that light pollution and moonlight for what I see as little benefit...
Cuiv, A great video, I have the line of Optolong from L-Pro to L-Extreme. There is a caveat to the using the NB OSC filters like the L-Extreme or even the L-Enhance. For objects that have significant reflection nebula/components, the L-Pro is the better filter. L-Enhance will block noticeable detail from reflections components in a mixed emission/reflection target like M78. The L-Extreme blocks almost all reflection - rendering targets like M45 mere ghosts of what can be imaged with the L-Pro or even no filter. Characteristics of the target have to be considered when selecting the appropriate filter.
thank you very much for such an informative video! i currently shoot with a nikon 400mm f/2.8 (its stars are pin sharp corner to corner on full frame at f/2.8) and i still have a triad ultra filter from when i had slower scopes. i haven’t shot with the triad ultra much because the bandpass transmission goes down so much at high speeds like f/2.8. recently radian came out with a triad ultra designed for high speeds, with the bandpasses pre-shifted so that they get shifted back to the correct wavelengths when shooting at f/3 or faster. i put up my original triad ultra for sale and was going to buy this f/3 filter, but thankfully your video made me reconsider. i did some more research and found the (now that i’m of your logic lol) way better dual 5nm bandpass Antlia ALP-THS 2, designed for fast scopes too. Designed for shooting between f/2.2 and f/3.6, which i thankfully fall right in the middle of, i think im actually more interested in the slightly wider bandpass because as you described, it’ll very possibly let in the light coming in from the centre of my lens’ objective as well! plus, it’s half the price of the triad ultra f/3!!! thank you again for your thoughts, what do you think about my choice?
I think I am going to go with the NBZ because I live in Bortle 5 and have access to Bortle 4 to 2 within an hour or less drive and I HATE HALOS. I wish I could afford the Antlia ALP-T but I cannot and I will be imaging with an f/4.5 and f/4 scope which brushes the limits of both the L-Extreme and the Antlia ALP-T. Awesome video.
I had the Triad filter, but sold it and got the L-Extreme. Great filter! I use it with the ASI533 and the ASI2600. The only issue I have is star colour using the L-Extreme. To combat the bad star colour I add subs using an L-Pro filter.
Great overview of the different filters there - I learnt a lot. I have the L-extreme filter which I have used with Skywatcher ESPRIT 120ED and my ASI294mcpro and it worked brilliantly at picking up the Ha and OIII signal, even in full moonlight. The only problem I had with it was that I got very defined and hard edged halos around many of the brighter stars which were bloody impossible for me to get rid of. I have yet to work out if it's a function of the filter or how I have it setup. However, my Optolong 6.5nm OIII filter I use with the 2600mmpro has no such issue thankfully.
I’ve got the Optolong L-eXtreme and the L-Pro. I figured that these will give me the best coverage for most objects in my Bortle 7 environment. The L-Pro has actually been working fantastically well, even for emission nebulae. The L-eXtreme has been used on the Wizard Nebula and I was blown away by the results. There’s no way I’m going to drop $1,1100 US on a filter. I’d rather spend that on the ASI294MC Pro.
@@CuivTheLazyGeekI trying to make a point that the Triad filter costs as much as a camera. I have the ASI533MC Pro and I think it’s an amazing camera. I chose it over the 294 because of the amp glow on the 294.
you should check out the new ASKAR filter's that just came out it's two filters in a set one is HA+Oiii and the other is S2+Oiii and they are cheaper than most brands.
i've recently been shooting with my 2" L-extreme and DSLR - with the 2" filter mounted in front of lens - and I've been getting great results - I get a bit of an aperture restriction, but as your diagram shows, no issues with light angle. Shooting with 6d and Samyang 135mm for example. Also 300mm F4 L.
Cuiv, considering the anime shirts you've worn in the videos I'm guessing you might be an anime fan? I go way back to the days of Astro Boy (Tetsuwan Atomu) and Kimba the White Lion , (Janguru Taitei) both by Osamu Tezuka, who I got to meet in person at the LA meeting of ASIFA not long before he passed away. The group gave him a beautifully made 2' tall statue of Astro Boy and it moved him to tears. I would bet you that no matter how many anime you might have, I have considerably more I've collected over the past 60+ years up until, literally, today. I wanted to ask you where you got the Studio Ghibli shirt you're wearing in this video. I started looking online but haven't been able to find one.
I'm sorry to disappoint, I'm actually not that huge of an anime fan (I watch mostly the mainstream stuff), but I definitely am a Studio Ghibli fan. Amazing that you could meet Ozamu Tezuka! As for that t-shirt, it was given to me by family in France. My guess is that you can only find it there...
Excellent video with fantastic analysis....as always Cuiv! I hope your recovery is on-schedule. I'm going to be long-winded here (again...lol...your videos always get me thinking...), but hopefully the following 'food for thought' will be interesting/helpful. 1. Regarding the issues advertized by IDAS: (a) I certainly agree that fast optical systems will cause bandpass shifting, which would reduce the signal reaching the sensor (thereby reducing the signal to noise ratio in the raw images, and doing so with increasing amounts towards the edge of the photographic field) Furthermore, any tilting of the filter from perpendicular to the optical axis will also exacerbate this issue. (b) However, the IDAS filter has a relatively wide bandpass for narrowband filtering (12nm). Typical bandpasses for separate H-alpha, H-beta, OIII & SII filters are between 3nm and 7nm. This means that the IDAS filters are letting in a lot more light from sources other than emission nebula in space..in otherwords, light pollution. Consequently, the background noise in raw images will be higher than when using a 3nm to 7nm narrowband filter. This will reduce the signal to noise ratio, and the problem may not be rectified in post-processing. I don't know the answer to the following question, but it's worth considering: "Will the negative effects of light pollution with 12nm bandpass filters reduce the S/N ratio more or less than the negative effects of bandpass wavelength shift in 'fast' optical systems?". 🤔 (c) Imagers using a refractor with a focal reducer could place one of the narrowband filters that you compared in front of the focal reducer, and that would allow the filter to do its thing without being subjected to light rays hitting it at a severe angle. e.g. If you have a refractor with a native f-ratio of f/6, and use a 0.75x focal reducer (which results in an f/4.5 system), placing the NB filter ahead of the reducer means the NB filter 'sees' an f/6 light cone, not a 'faster f/4.5 light cone. As far as I understand, the primary negative to this strategy is that you may need a larger NB filter in some systems if you want to avoid vignetting (whether vignetting could be a concern will, in-part, depend on the distance the NB filter is ahead of the optical centre of the reducer, the f-ratio of the telescope objective, and the size of the sensor.). 🤔 2. Another consequence of bandpass shift could be shifting some of the OIII signal (which is in the transition zone between blue & green) from illuminating both blue & green pixels to illuminating more green than blue. I don't think that a comparable issue would occur with a shift in the H-beta, H-alpha & SII bandpasses. 🤔 3. This is another whole ball of wax, but I wonder if the 'bandpass' curves for the red, green & blue 'micro-filters' that are situated on the sensor pixels in a OSC could vary from one sensor type to another, which in-turn could influence the colours displayed in the debayered raw image. i.e. Is it possible that one sensor type could 'see' the OIII regions in a nebula as more blue than green, then another sensor type would 'see' the OIII regions in the same nebula as more green than blue? 🤔 4. Regarding the Sightron Japan Quad Filter & Radian Triad Quad Ultra Filter Cuiv, you are quite right in saying that the SII signal from most emission nebulae is usually a lot weaker than the H-alpha signal. So, IF the two signals overlap, then - yes - the SII signal will be swamped by the H-apha signal. However, as many images in the Hubble Palette demonstrate, there can be SII emitting regions in a nebula that are in a different location than the H-apha emitting regions, and vice-versa. In those cases, the SII would not be swamped, but would be on its own. Having said that, the fact that both H-apha and SII signals will be seen by a OSC as red, means that when we look at an image taken through one of these NB filters, there will be no way to see which red nebulosity is from the H-alpha signal, which is from the SII signal, and which is from a combination of H-apha & SII ! 🤔 5. As for the issue with having an H-beta bandpass... Kudos Cuiv for mentioning the 'trick' of copying the H-alpha channel to a new layer in the image, reducing the brightness, and assigning it to the Blue Channel. 👍 I don't think that a lot of newer astro-imagers are aware of this strategy. 👍 If I recall correctly, the ratio of H-beta:H-alpha is 1:6 in planetary nebulae, and 1:12 in emission nebulae, but I could be wrong. Also, you made an excellent point re: visual astronomy...in fact, the first time I ever saw the Horsehead Nebula through a telescope (without having my doubts) was when a friend let me use his Lumicon H-beta filter (*) that was designed for visual applications! And, BTW, that observation was in Bortle 1 or 2 skies....the effects of natural atmospheric skyglow on visual observing should not be underestimated. 🤔 (*) I'm revealing how very old I am by mentioning Lumicon! lol 4. Last.....a question: Could a filter such as the Radian Triad Ultra Quad filter be used as a Luminance AND super light pollution filter when using a Mono camera in urban locations? While it may affect the relative brightnesses of the stars in the field, it would do wonders for emphasizing emission nebulae in LRGB images, right? Also, could one take Luminance images with a OSC through one of these NB filters, then take RGB data using the OSC without one of these filters, then produce an LRGB with better contrast, even if light pollution was not severe? 🤔
Thanks for this detailed comment! 1.c. That is a very good point - I personally hate doing so because it makes switching filters so much more painful. But it makes a lot of sense 2. The OIII signal itself is not shifted, only the bandpass is. So that would mean less OIII signal, and more LP shifted 3. That is indeed possible, but in either case OIII will pass both green and blue. Final image shouldn't be too affected 5. Lumicon is not that old! :D 6. Yes, a filter like the Triad Ultra, L-eNhance, or L-eXtreme can be used in place of the L filter for better details within the nebula captured in RGB - similar to HaLRGB. Would it provide a major advantage over HaRGB? Would depend on the target! As for combing OSC data with and without filter, that sounds tricky! But could be attempted!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thank you Cuiv! I appreciate you taking the time to read my missive & respond to each point! 👍👍 All your points were helpful. 😀 re: 1(c) Very true, especially if the imaging session is split between different types of object (emission/reflection nebulae, or only part of the session is free of moonlight....)
Excellent video Cuiv. Totally agree, I have the LExtreme and I’m in a bortle 4, it works great, I love it, from my bortle 4, I don’t get much light pollution anyway, so 7nm if fine👍 Clear skies
This is an area I really want to explore in depth. It’s fascinating about H-beta. I guarantee you there’s an abundance of imagers who only know they don’t need it. Visual folks are familiar with it but even they rarely prioritize it. For visual it’s only really helpful for a handful of targets. If I personally had to guess why it’s included is that it’s a marketing trick. “Our model also includes hydrogen beta transmission!” You have a much broader experience with filters than I do. I’ve toyed with practically every planetary filter available. I wish I had all the money I’ve wasted on them. Great video. This is one I will continue to check comments on. Hopefully it will inspire some educated responses. Let’s kidnap a filter developer. Jk
It looks like Optolong have heard your request Cuiv and the L-Ultimate filter is coming soon. Dual bandwidth filter with each band passing 3nm of H-Alpha and OIII. I'm looking forward to this one. From Testar, my local store - "The new Optolong L-Ultimate filter is a light pollution dual band filter designed to drastically reduce the effect of light pollution. Its two ultra-narrow 3nm passing bands isolate the nebulae emissions in H-Alpha (red) and OIII (green-blue). It blocks the light pollution, maximises nebulae signal and makes the sky background dark. The L-Ultimate filter is designed for astrophotography under urban skies"
Wow!! Amazing video! Very informative and in a way that’s easy to understand! I wish i knew about all this when I got my l-enhance! Think I’ll sell that and get an l-extreme now!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I just ordered the l-extreme. Will do what you said and compare first. Thank you very much for your videos! Love them. I just ordered a 8” f4 Newtonian too. Can’t wait!
Hi Cuiv, Love your videos please keep them coming whenever you can, they are so informative and for beginning Astro imagers like myself they make life so much easier. I imagine in Tokyo you are in a Bardahl 8+ sky like I am here in Cleveland Ohio. Are use an L pro light, clip and filter with my canon and it’s OK but I was thinking about the L extreme. Now that I’ve seen your video I think I will go ahead and get the L extreme. By the way what do you do in Tokyo I work for a company out of Kyoto and I used to travel there quite often before the pandemic. Please keep the videos coming and I hope your healing is going well.
Great and very informative video! For the money, IMO, the IDAS NBZ filter is the best filter on the market. Great quality and works great with fast optics. Also very reasonably priced when compared to the other filters. I use the NBZ filter from Bortle 8 skies and get amazing results.
WOW!! I do understand what you are saying...a lot of info!! Thanks for all your efforts! Do you know when the Optolong L Extreme F is coming to market?
Ya Cuiv is back, Hope your back is doing better, I am suprised you didnt include the Idas NB1 , NB2 , NB3, When I talked with Borg they told me the NBZ was only meant for fast optics and was already Pre-shifted for the bandpass shift that occurs with Fast Optics. Since I am parting with my C8 and Hyperstar because my Stellarvue SVX 80mm just does a better job with similar FOV. I see no purpose in it. As far as the NB2 and NB3 its a cheaper way to do SHO palette than spending $1100 on the Radian Triad filter maybe it the Triad was 1/2 the cost it would be worth it but $1100 is ridiculous for a OSC filter
NB1, 2, 3 are mentioned briefly in the video - The Japanese IDAS website mentions them as no longer being in production (remaining stock only), so I skipped them
One of the best narrow band filter reviews I've seen. You address the major issue of different emission strengths for HA vs HB etc, which has a major impact on imaging with a OSC sensor, and which most people ignore. Bandpass is not everything; signal strength from different molecular species is also very important. You nail this. I'd love to know your opinion on filters for imaging galaxies. Here narrow band is no good? Is just a Neodymium filter good enough for Bortle 8+ sites?
Thanks Mark! I have to say, for imaging galaxies I don't know of really good filters... So I stick with Luminance! It kind of works, even in Bortle 8/9!
Good post Mark 👍👍 One tiny correction...the emission lines discussed in Cuiv's video are produced by singlely or doubly ionized individual atoms of Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen & Sulphur, which emit in wavelengths that are between 300 and 1000 nanometres or so. In general, molecules (including H2, O2, N2, and S or S8) emit in the infrared & even longer wavelengths (generally wavelengths on the order of centimetres...e.g. the important 21cm molecular Hydrogen line studied by radio astronomers).
H alpha vs H beta - isn't it possible some regions of space will have different pumping energy level distributions, so the H-a vs H-b ratio won't be constant across the image?
Great video and insights. I was really debating with my inner financially responsible self - about TRIAD filters. - What do you consider a "fast system" ? f ... what? 3.9, 5 etc or - less than f3? - While we are all plagued by/with light pollution - usually most of the people still take the hike and go somewhere darker (Bortle 6 or less ...). Then more of these filters make sense...
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Then again, I’m yet to buy my first narrow band filter of any kind... I tried faking it with different broad(er) band filters - waste of money. So - thank you for this review - I will buy L-extreme ... almost bought Triad 😄
Cuiv have you seen that Antlia filters have a new dual band filter (ALP-T Dualband 5nm NB filter) coming out that has 5nm band passes for each Ha & Oiii. Looks interesting
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I will look forward to it. I'm considerind upgrading my Oiii filter to their 3nm Oiii filter I would be interested in a comparison with other similar Oiii filters if you could get hold of them.
Hi Quiv, love the vids, love the channel, love you! Altair have a 7nm dual band filter for £235, not quite the 3 or 4 nm we dream of but a step in the right direction. I'm guessing it will be £600 when it finally arrives.
Thanks David :) That Altair filter really intrigues me, because they say it works all the way to F2 without a lot of bandpass shift. I'm really curious about it!
Another very informative video Cuiv I've got a RASA 11 & I've been looking around online for a filter an the IDAS looks like the one to go for, I live in what is apparently a Bortle 4 area although I'm not totally convinced but I'm hoping the filter will work well for targets lower on the horizon, I'm hoping to give the scope a first light soon & as I don't have any filters for it other than a sky glow filter I'm probable going to go for a target that's straight up above me here like the Elephants trunk nebula so fingers crossed I'll be able to pull some detail from it.
I can _almost_ understand the rationale behind the inclusion of S2. After all, those of us who image with mono cameras use S2 filters all the time for SHO. Sulphur does offer up distinct structure. No, you can't separate it from the Ha, but it at least offers up some minimal value. The Hb? No need at all. It's a complete waste. You want to include hydrogen in your green/blue? Do so via pixel math. In fact, here's a simple blend... R: Ha G: 0.80*O + 0.20*Ha B: 0.95*O + 0.05*Ha If I were to buy, I'd make the same decision you did: L-eXtreme for the slower systems and IDAS for fast. Of course, this is my opinion. I am neither endorsed, nor sponsored to make these statements. Your mileage may vary. Etc, etc, etc :D
Great info here, Cuiv, as usual. I love your scientific and logical approach to astrophotography topics, over-the-top enthusiasm, and ever-present humor and insights that always keeps me chuckling. Please keep up the great work. I have a stock entry-level Canon DSLR and I'm wondering if narrowband filters like these are worth the cost given that the DSLR has an IR-cut filter in it. I can't seem to find any specs on my camera's IR-cut filter in terms of how aggressive it is and if it reduces the H-alpha in any way, and I was hoping you had some insight. I have access to a Bortle 3 site if I drive about 30 min but would love to do more imaging from my backyard more often (Bortle 5-6) and/or on nights when the moon is a problem. Do you think the Optolong L-eXtreme would help even with a DSLR?
Hey Greg! Thanks for that feedback and for your support :-) it's a tough question to answer. The IR filter in your camera cuts roughly 75% of H-Alpha, but that still means 25% comes through. And since Ha is so strong, long integration times can help. An l-eXtreme would help tighten the stars and do narrowband HOO palettes, so it gives you access to a different style than broadband. But how well it will work on an unmodded camera, I'm not sure... Especially when thinking about the additional sources of noise like thermal noise. I'd probably avoid it until I mod the camera!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks so much for the information and insight, Cuiv! Maybe I'll save the $$ on the filter right now (since I've fruitlessly tried so many they are falling out of my camera bag) and think about putting it toward a OSC dedicated astro camera as we get to spring and summer. Much appreciated!!
Good stuff Cuiv I've been happy with my L-enhance for a few months in bortle 6, just made the move to the L-extreme so interested to see how this will go might make a video on the comparison.👍
I'd watch that! I will make a prediction that even from a Bortle 6 you'll get a significant improvement for the same imaging time (at same elevation of the target), and tighter stars as an added benefit!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I certainly hope so, I think will be a good test like you say keep my elevation consistent. All I need now is some clear nights here in Australia, we've had some very average weather. Hopefully I can get Legolas out soon!!!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek hahaha exactly, but now is typhoon season and the weather was terrible these days right? Why you don’t take photo of the whole Milky Way? I always go to Jogashima, Kanagawa to shoot the Milky Way, hope can see you there one day. Here’s Jogashima’s milky way 😂 th-cam.com/video/jI8U25q2HYs/w-d-xo.html
Nice video Cuiv! I currently image under a bortle sky 4 using Optolong L Enhance filter using a dslr with good results, however recently i ordered a dedicated cooled camera the Altair 26c and i am thinking soon to try also tighter narroband filters, maybe like the Antila filter 5nm or similar . I heard you are in an Astrophotography break, when you restart astrophotography let me know if you are interested in a collaboration, i think we could do some nice comparison between bortle 4 and 9.
Hi Cuiv. Love all the vids! Question: do you experience significant Halos using the L-extreme? I had the L-enhance and sold it because the Halos were terrible. I get less Halos with the IDAS NBZ. But after this video I am considering the L-Extreme-hence I'm curious if you see bad Halos with it. Thanks-Tommy
There are halos around bright stars (see here: th-cam.com/video/9B0T9CkyI10/w-d-xo.html ) but I personally don't mind at all (I kind of like these types of halos)
Cuiv, thank you for the band pass shifting as per the focal length. If I refer to the transmittance graph (at 5:07 for example) and I look at the transmittance bands (at low focal length) of the iOptron L-Extreme, my conclusion is that the Halpha is move alot toward the Sodium spec (which I think it is light polution) and the Oiii is shifted to the Hbeta. So ... the filters that we buy are not really that good... Then (looking angain to that graph) the % of light passing through the Halpha and Oiii is quite low for a low focal length. Am I right Cuiv?
Cuiv, did you consider the band passes of the RGGB bayer filter on your camera? I'm purely speculating but does the O3 end up on the GG (which is good as its weaker than Ha), the Ha ends up on the R, and the Hb end up on the B? Therefore you end up with 2 pixels Ha+Hb and 2 pixels O3. NB imaging with multiband pass filters with colour cameras is complicated cubed, mono is simples.
Its too late on a Friday now but can you deconvolute the B and GG signals cross over with the band pass, double the B signal and subtract it from the G, half the G signal and subtract it from the B........ or just do mono - save my sanity.
You are right! But still... I think the benefit pales in comparison to the drawbacks (loss of sanity, and gain in light pollution, e.g. net loss in SNR I would think...), Thanks for looking into it!
Hi! Thank you for your video, it’s very clear and useful! I’m evaluating to buy the L-Extreme but I have a doubt: with a small refractor (70/420, f6) could I have problem with l-extreme? Maybe it’s better the Idas nebula booster or my focal ratio is not so fast? Thanks and greatings from Italy!
Hey, Cuiv! Thanks for the info. I agree with what you just said, but I have just one comment on the l-eXtreme: not so good if you have only a DSLR. In this case the l-eNhance is better choice.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Good question! Ruz Farsaad (AstroFarsography) did a test some time ago, and I believe he did it with a modded DSLR. The results were not as good as with the normal l-eNhance.
@@enriqueboeneker I'll have to look for that! I wonder if he fell to the temptation of exposing each frame longer on the DSLR, thus accumulating thermal noise (he likely did so to overwhelm read noise). In theory for the same subframe exposure times, we should be getting a slightly better result with the L-eXtreme. I'll search for that video!
Here’s the link to his video. The camera was modded, but since the bandpass is narrower then he had to expose more time and this caused more thermal noise. The link to the video is: th-cam.com/video/MlVHHmN_61g/w-d-xo.html
@@enriqueboeneker Yeaaah that's a common mistake of users going from 7nm narrowband to 3nm narrowband filters as well. Using narrower band passes means you *can* expose longer not that you *have to* expose longer as Ruz says (just like going to a super dark sky - you can expose much longer but you don't have to). Sure you won't have optimized the signal to read noise ratio but it's better than going ham on the thermal noise. The useful signal from the nebula is still the same per unit of time - but you're capturing less light pollution at the same time. If you can get the thermal noise to be the same in the test, then the narrower band passes win. We see this with normal monochrome imaging as well with users going from 7nm to 3nm and complaining they have to expose longer because the image is darker - they don't have to, the narrower bandpass gives them the option to do so (and yes exposing longer with a cooled camera will bring better results)...
I know this is 2 years old but I have a question: I want to get more HOO or SHO color palettes from my 2600MC. I have a place to go for Bortle 3 but my home is Bortle 8. Do I use these filters for nebula when shooting in dark sky areas or just high light polution? Should nebula always be shot with filters with OSC?
In many planetary nebulae oxygen will be strongest while H-alpha may actually be more [N II] than hydrogen emission :D Also the ZWO/Sightron thingies just look like glorified over-expensive UHC filters (Baader UHC-S style).
I am a bit slow, so I didn't get this vid until now - but again: A great one, Cuiv! Question related to band shifting: Does this imply that there are more benefits of using smaller camera sensors on your scope if you are using narrowband filters?
Thanks Hans! Smaller camera sensors wouldn't really provide a benefit. It's true that to reach corners, some light rays will need steeper angles.... but you can always crop with a larger sensor! In the end larger sensor is always better..... but more costly :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks, Cuiv. For my understanding: Why would a bigger sensor cropped be better than a smaller sensor (assuming pixel count pr inch, QE etc is approx equal) if the size of the final image is the same? I am not sure if I understand why a bigger sensor always will be better? (DSO imaging, that is - not planetary/solar/lunar)
Hey Cuiv, I’m just starting out and I’m waiting for ZWO to ship my AM5 mount. I’ve already got an ASI224MC to do planetary imaging with my Mewlon 180c. This can double as the guide camera for my FC-100DC. My question is would it be simpler in the short term for me to use my planetary camera to image double stars and open clusters just to get my polar alignment and processing chops together before I buy an expensive, cooled big-sensor camera?
I have the ZWO Duo Band as well and it works pretty well with my hyperstar. Where my L-Extreme does not. . I'm looking into getting the IDAS NBZ but no one has it in stock. ;o(
There is one filter I am VERY curious about, it's this: www.altairastro.com/altair-dual-band-7nm-cmos-nebula-filter-2-10457-p.asp ,. Same bandpasses as the L-eXtreme, but they claim extremely little bandpass shift thanks to flat top technology.
I have a Rok 135 f2 setup that use with ZWO filters (7nm) and a mono cam. I bet f2.8 is too fast. I’d like to know better how the transmission curve shifts? I know the autofocus is all over.
Excellent video! Just a question i have, as I’m looking to get a telescope and i have the Nikon z5 mirrorless. I was told by someone if your camera is not modified then you will want to use the L-Enhance as the L-Extreme will be too narrow of a band pass for stock DSLRs. What are your thoughts?
I would still go with the L-eXtreme - It lets in the same wavelength (e.g. same about of signal), but less light pollution. That may make you tempted to expose longer, but you don't strictly have to (although not optimal)
Could you cover some laymen’s/ budget filters? The svbony mostly. Are they any good?? I picked up a uhc from svbony but not sure what to expect from it.. as it’s my first filter
I can't send you a RASA, but I did pull the trigger on the NBZ. I'll do a comparison with the NBZ vs L-eNhance with my RASA and let you know how it goes.
Got the IDAS LPS D2, Lenhance and Lextreme. Lextreme is impressive for nebulas and cuts star bloating down , lenhance is much more natural in my bortle 5 skies at home. The IDAS... well its useless for me - not good for nebulas, not usable for galaxies. But 40min away I can enjoy bortle 2.9 skies and thats my favourite: UV/IR cut luminance filter and natural star colors.
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Cuiv, I follow several TH-cam Astrophotographers and have learned so much from all of them however, I have to say I learn so much more from you. Thank you for what you do with such passion, it's truly infectious in a good way.
Thanks for that feedback!!
Hear hear!!! You have a very nice approach combining science & pragmatism
You put all the answers to questions I had about duo narrowband filters in general into one video. Thanks. This video should be way higher up in the results for people researching about multi band filters.
Glad it helped!
Thanks! I'm using the Antlia 5nm dual band filters now for Ha/O3 and S2/Hb. They work pretty well in Bortle 5-6 but I find that I need 2x the data with the S2/Hb filter. I like the results.
There is a nice alternative for the Optolong L-Extreme: the Antlia ALP-T with 5nm bandwidth and it produces less halos around bright stars
The very best filter overview I've seen. Thank you so much!
My pleasure! Glad it helped!
Excellent Video ! Astroblender touched on Filter issues related to Optical speeds but really didn't know what was going on . You have finally uncovered the physics of the issue . Very interesting and important . Thanks and we all hope you are feeling better ./SRK
Thank you; glad this was helpful!
For me, this is one of your best videos. Many thanks.
Hi Cuiv, I use the same Sharpstar61 scope with the ASI533MC and got the L-Extreme filter recently. Your information was priceless to me and so many others. I always find new information from watching your channel. You always keep it real. I like that you haven`t taken the commercial advertising route as so many of the others have today. I owe you a Rasa if I ever come into a few quid. Your channel is a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
Thank you John! Glad this is helpful!
Once again, an amazing video with so much great info. So glad you are making videos again. My plans for coming to Toyko to perform a Vulcan Mind Meld are now on hold now that you are back in business on TH-cam.
Thanks Marvin! Yeah and covid does make travelling more difficult too!
I have an IDAS NBZ and use it with my Redcat or my 8" RC with a QHY247C. It's a fantastic filter and I have to say that IDAS/HuTech is a stand-up company. I purchased an NBX as soon as it came out. There were some issues with halos around brighter stars. They went back to the drawing board and the NBZ was born. If you bought an NBX and have proof of purchase, you can request a replacement NBZ filter and they'll send it to you for FREE. Not many companies would do that.
I didn't know that about NBX -> NBZ but that's an outstanding move by the company!
You must have been quite happy with the L-Ultimate then! Sounds like it's exactly up your alley. Great video!
Great video! I agree with your assessment. I have nearly all of the Optolong and Astronomik filters (2" and clip in) I'm in a Bortle 4/5 and the L extreme and L enhance both work very well for me especially when using my 120mm skywatcher esprit (Starizona FR) and my QHY 268C. I've tried my IR cut and compared what I get and it seems to follow logic. I get great images if I'm imaging north (into a bortle 1-ish area) with the IR cut and if I'm imaging to the south I'm going through a Bortle 2 or so and the narrowband filters really do help. I've avoided the higher end filters because what I'm getting really looks as good as anything with similar equipment and seeing on Astrobin.
I was a bit worried at the start but I'm happy you ended up with the l-extreme :)
Spoiler alert 😂
Same here since I just dropped $300 on the L-extreme filter.
Thanks for this very useful information. I have just bought my first OSC astronomy camera (533 size sensor) for deep sky imaging. This will be used mostly with either a Samyang 135 f2 lens or a William Optics GT81 refractor (I have my mono camera more or less permanently set up with a cat51). I will probably go for the L-Extreme but have also looked at the Altair Astro dual band filter as I already use their 7nm Ha and OIII filters with my mono camera. I also have a Sky Tech dual band clip filter for my unmodified SSLR. this seemed to be OK on targets such as M42 at Bortle 5 or 6, but at light polution levels above this it doesn't work that well ( to be fair it probably works a lot better with a modified or dedicated astronomy DSLR )
I currently own the L-Enhance, L-eXtreme and the Triad Ultra Quad, and the Triad wins hands down (in my opinion). Even at the price point I would say it's a no brainer. I've owned a ton of gear while in this hobby and most of it offers slight improvements over other gear, but nothing jaw dropping. The Triad was one of the few items I've bought where I was truly blown away by it, even over the L-eXtreme. At the end of the day though I think it matters less about the numbers and specs and more about what the person is looking for in their images, and how well does that filter align with that. To me the Triad Ultra produced an image that was better than I even imagined in my head. I can't tell you exactly what it is about the images it produces that I like so much more than the L-eXtreme. For all I know the added cost of the filter has a placebo effect on me and makes me see the images as better than they are. Whatever it is, it made me fall in love with this hobby all over again. I'm in a Bortle 8 for what it's worth.
Very interesting! Have you photographed galaxies or other objects that require a wider band, from your area? I also live in the middle of a city and was thinking that this hobby may not be worth it cause of my area
have you tried 3nm filters with mono camera? You will be truly blown away. I have never used OSC for NB nebula images since I got astrodon 3nm filter sets and 1600MM (later 294MM)
@@MegaFrenzyman No, I'm trying to hold off as long as possible. I live in the 5th cloudiest city in the United States, we average over 300 days of clouds per year. So the time I do have to image can be very limited. With OSC I'm able to at least produce a color image with very little data. I know for a fact that I will love mono better, but I also know that I'll have targets that are missing data and unable to be processed for a while. Even though the mono would require less integration time to produce an equally impressive image, I can get a processable image with only a single sub using OSC (it would look terrible, but it would have color haha)
@@ntt2k I have used it to take pictures of galaxies, but only to add HA data to my targets. I shoot all my galaxies with the Optolong L-Pro, which is a great filter for wide band. After I have enough images and I'm happy with the wideband data, I'll use the L-eXtreme or the Triad Ultra and collect more data. I then separate the red channel from the narrowband data and blend it into my wideband image. This allows you to see all the natural-ish color from the L-Pro but also see the vibrant reds that are spread throughout the galaxy as well.
@@dmglakewood you can always get a mono and shoot luminance in halpha with it, total game changer and you still keep your color.
I just caught the Chernobyl reference. lol Love it. I really enjoy going back on these videos and compiling more and more info into my brain. I just got a Raspi with astroberry and got my rig built up. Canon dslr with a redcat 51. Still so much to learn. Your content and knowledge is appreciated by many!
L-Enhance : 24nm width for OIII/Hb, 10nm width for Ha.
Advantage over other filters : it exists as clip for DSLR.
Thanks for the precisions!
Great video as always Cuiv! 👍 And good to see you without the brace, hope you’re feeling better!
I recently bought the IDAS NBZ filter myself, and find it very good from a Bortle 6/7 back garden. Using it on my F/5 Newt and was blown away. Only had one night with it though so far due to the damn UK weather! 😡
One thing you forgot to mention with the NBZ is it was re-designed from the ashes of the NBX, which suffered greatly with star halos. Not with the NBZ! I’ve tried the L-eXtreme before and found that star halos were a problem on certain bright stars. Not with the NBZ, even in 10 minute exposures!!!
Well that's a detail I didn't know about NBX -> NBZ. Thank you!
Hi Quiv. Thanks for another great video. Hope you are healing well from your accident. I have just a couple of comments. 1) h-beta is not really a mirror of h-alpha. It comes from a different energy state transition. It may be a complication when processing a multi-band pass filter, but it is a distinct signal which depends on the target. 2) 5nm (for h-beta) is < 2% of the visible spectrum. You should not be so stressed about this contribution to your signal for the Racism Quad (the price on the other hand is another matter). 3) as you mention in the beginning, focal ratio is very important, especially if using really short fr. Most, but not all folks using a RASA should know that there are specialty filters for fr=2. I own an L-Enhance (and an L-Pro2) and both work well for my bortle 7ish skies. Your photos are stunning and your videos are very helpful. Thanks. Bob
Thanks for the feedback!
On 1. I agree - although from my experience with visual Hb filters, they reveal structures that are very close to pictures in H-alpha, it feels close to a clone to me (certainly not as different as Ha is from OIII)
2) 5nm or
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Hi Quiv. Thanks for all the great videos. I have only been doing this for a couple of years and I can't imagine starting this hobby 10 or 15 years ago when great instructional videos were few and far between. Hope you are healing well and will soon be able to take astrophotos with out so much discomfort.
Those 5nm in Hb falls to blue spectrum where Moon and LED affects the most
Hi Quiv. I had a eureka moment while thinking about your experience with the 5nm bandwidth having a significant impact. I was comparing the 5nm to the width of the entire visible spectrum. If you are using a filter which has three 5nm wide pass zones, then I should have compared the 5nm to a total of 15nm (in other words, 33% not 2%). Thanks again, Bob
Have taken some nice shots with the L-eNhance and my ZWO ASI071MC. I live in Bortle 7 but tend to use this combo only during the short summer nights when there is not enough dark hours to shoot full Ha-OIII-SII with a mono camera. OSC with any multi-band filter usually results in red and blue nebula. Mono cams and true NB filters always capture more signal, plus you can do Hubble Palette. But wish I did have the L-eXtreme, which came out just shortly after the L-eNhance.
Oh, and wishing you a speedy and complete recovery from your recent health challenges. God bless!
Great to see you back! This by far the best review of narrowband filters. I will go with the L-extreme. You made it all sound so simple. Maybe it has always been. THANKS
Brilliant explanations Cuiv! Landed up on your channel for explanation on N.I.N.A. and now I get some of the best informative content on astrophotography here!
Thanks! I'm really glad the channel is useful beyond NINA!
Check out Altair Astro’s new dual band filter , it’s pulled good results from London’s bortle 8 skies . Great to see you back again mate 👌🏻
I hadn't heard of that one, thanks for letting me know about it! It makes some pretty extraordinary claims about bandpass shift...!
I have not tried that filter, but do own the Altair Quad Band filter. This filter is relatively affordable and so far am satisfied with results at F/3+ to ~F/7. Have not tried it in the RASA yet. The 35nm bandwidth around the transmission lines seems to fly in the face of more extreme narrow passbands but the results are good so far under Bortle 5-6 skies. I intend to compare it back to back with the Triad Quad Ultra, same target, same optical train. More testing required.
Hi Cuiv, glad you’re recovering, if somewhat slower than you (and we) would like, from your accident, and thanks for maintaining your infectious enthusiasm! Your explanation of bandwidths, and especially your interpretation of the importance (or not) of S and Hb signals was very clear.
I have the Optolong L-Pro, L-eNhance and now L-eXtreme which in my Bortle 5 skies might not be needed except for the 4 yellow streetlights that play into the ‘backyard’. However, I have also added a UV/IR blocking filter for when I’m away from the lights, because the ASI533 is prone to blue star bloat due to its IR sensitivity when I’m not using one of the Optolongs.
That's a good variety of filters you have there!
Nice video, especially your explanstion at 8:00 on the light loss with high aperture lenses ....
Also the Hbeta ... for visual.
Thanks for posting!
Salut Cuiv
Heureux que tu sois de retour !
Je partage tout à fait ton choix. J’ai pu faire des prises assez fantastique de la nébuleuse d’Orion avec le L Extreme avec simplement une petite Takahashi FS 60CB, montée sur une Skywatcher AZ GTE, depuis le centre ville de Douai, sous un lampadaire (!), par une nuit avec une lune assez pleine. Ok, c’était la nébuleuse d’Orion mais j’ai été bluffé par le résultat.
Ça ça a du être une session intéressante! C'est vraiment un bon filtre!
Hello Cuiv, fantastic video! Thank you for your theoretical approach. One thing I'd like to note if you don't mind, and it's in regards to the Optolong L-eNhance vs L-eXtreme. I noted in one of my video that I think the L-eNhance is better suited for dSLR's because of their lack of cooling. The L-eXtreme, in my experience, IS a better filter, as long as your camera is cooled to deal with the longer exposure necessary with that filter. The L-eXtreme may introduce too much thermal noise when paired to dSLRs, especially older ones. Anyways, awesome video! Thanks for posting this!
P.S. it would be great if we could collaborate. My sky is quite crap as well, I live in San Francisco, so my skies are as garbage as yours in Tokyo 😃.
Hello, thanks for the feedback! I watched the part of video about when you compare the filters. It seems you're falling into the same trap that many (including me) have fallen into before: thinking that you *have to/need to* expose longer on narrower bandpasses. That's a common mistake of users going from 7nm narrowband to 3nm narrowband filters as well. Using narrower band passes means you *can* expose longer not that you *have to* expose longer (just like going to a super dark sky - you can expose much longer but you don't have to). Sure you won't have optimized the signal to read noise ratio but it's better than going ham on the thermal noise. The useful signal from the nebula is still the same per unit of time and surface area regardless of the bandpass (assuming no other useful & significant signal lines are included in the wider bandpass) - but you're capturing less light pollution at the same time. We see this with normal monochrome imaging as well with users going from 7nm to 3nm and complaining they have to expose longer because the image is darker and their mount or guider can't keep up - they don't have to, the narrower bandpass gives them the option to do so (and yes exposing longer with a cooled camera will bring better results). But even for the same exposure time, the darker looking image of the 3nm filter for instance will have better SNR and better contrast. But this is an interesting topic, I may make a video about this!
As for a collab, let me know if you have a good idea!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I'm learning something new everyday. Thank you for that! What a well thoughtout, well put-together respond. It makes total sense! I'm really glad you pointed that out to me. Because despite having "upgraded" to the L-eXtreme, I kept the L-eNhance around for dSLR imaging. Now I am interested in testing out this theory. And with your quick advice, I may be able to prove myself wrong as well! :)
As for the collaboration, I will send you a message through one of your social media channel. I hope that's ok. Let's talk soon! :)
Great video. Glad to see you back at it. Hope you're healing well. Ive thought about the Triad filters and now very glad with my decision to purchase the Optolong filters. Great information.
Glad it was helpful, and hope you're enjoying your filter!
I can say with my hyperstar the IDAS NB1 works great even at F2 OSC but I bought the Badder F2 optimized mono filters for my 1600mm and they are awesome!
Awesome! Baader really came to the rescue for fast apertures!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I've got L-eXtreme, IDAS NBZ and a set of Baader f/2 filters. I can confirm L-eXtreme does not work with f/2 (I've got hyperstar) systems, IDAS NBZ - works fine, but the best result I get with specialized Baader filters + mono camera. I wish there was some kind of automation like filter wheel for RASA-like systems.
@@y2ukr87 Thanks for letting us know! Yeah that's what I expected... I've always been on the fence about the RASA. How do you do autofocus by the way?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I use Celestron 8SE SCT with Celestron electronic focuser. So, it's either autofocus in NINA or special hinged Bahtinov mask and do the focusing myself. The second proves to be faster, also I do not need any automation as typically my sessions in hyperstar f/2 configuration are pretty short (less than 2 hours).
Great to see you back. You had us scared for your health. I have a Rasa {both 8 and 14} and in a Bortle 5 the L-extreme does not work. The shift is too much. However I shoot very short exposures. If I put that filter on my refractor it works fantastic. I refuse to give up short exposures because of cloud/fog issues here on the coast.
That makes sense! I'm recently tempted by RASA but am successfully resisting for now :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Also, note that Baader makes a set of filters that is shifted in spectrum to work with Fast optics. They have not to my knowledge tried that with multipass. Again glad to see you back, be well.
I have the ZWO duo band (because I'm cheap and poor) but just for the record if you don't own any narrowband filter and you got light pollution issues, even the ZWO duo band would make a world of difference. I have other light pollution filters that I tried that deploy a different technique to reduce light pollution, but even the cheapest of all narrowband filters will make a world of difference. Save your light pollution filters for broadband targets like galaxies and star clusters and deploy a narrow band for emission nebulae.
I also use Baader moon/skyglow, which is rather a uv-ir cut filter on steroids. It does cut some of the sky glow or moon glow but no match for a narrow band filter.
That is very good point Frank - a cheap average multi-band filter is still better than nothing!
Great video (again) I think your theory stacks up! I'm Bortle 6 and I've just converted to a tri-band 35nm Oxygen + H beta & 12nm Ha huge improvement on generic CLS filter - mostly due to blocking out more light pollution. I think I'll be looking out for a narrow dual narrow band in the future!
Great comparison and informative video, Cuiv! I'm glad you are back :-).
Thanks for this video Cuiv! It is helping me get a better understanding of what to consider when buying a filter. Have you seen Optlong must have watched this and just released the L-ultimate which is 3nm bandpass 😂
Interesting, SVBony came out with their version of duo narrowband filter, they also chose the 7nm band pass for Ha and OIII as you’ve recommended. SV220, for $120, so less than half the price of L-extreme and a reasonable budget option. I’ve been testing this out lately from my bortle 7 home with Pacman nebula and getting good results. Thanks for the video.
I actually reviewed it on the channel a few weeks ago!
Cuiv, very good video. I like your videos because it seems like although you repeat beeing lazy, you are yet clever :-) From my pov those filters are narrowband filters in first place and not LP filters. Once you see it from that standpoint, you can make different argumentations: Broader bandpasses allow more light (e.g. Hbeata and SII) to reach the sensor, hence you should get a better snr (in good sky quality circumstances), BUT you get less contrast (and you dont get any seperation anymore due to the bayer matrix). So thats why (again in my opinion) people are fastly convinced of tighter bandpasses because they are simply more contrasty. A caveat of duo narrowband filters is something you mentioned as well: The moon has more of a negativ impact on the blue/green OIII Line, cause the moonlight is coloring the sky blue (as the sunlight does). Thats why with a mono camera OIII ften is captured during new moon, whereas you can image SII and Ha in moonlight. You clearly can see it if you start imaging before moon rise. When the moon rises you see the pollution in the green/blue parts of the image. So thats anyway a problem, independent from broad or tight bandpasses. Anyway i agree and would love to see a tight duo narrowband filter just passing Ha and OIII. And i am very curious about that IDAS Filter but it seems to be hard to get, at least in germany. It is listed already on dealers websites, but with delivery dates somewhere in the future. Ah yes and you forgot oe: The STC Dou Narrowband, which was on the market long before the LXtreme :-) BTW. glad you are back on track!
Yeah the moon piece is quite important. Blue bands can really be annoying during the full moon!
I agree, astrophotocologne. I own the STC Duo-Narrowband filter and it's a great filter. Much better than my ZWO Duo-Bandfilter but I got this last one as a bonus when I bought my ZWO ASI 533MC Pro, so I won't complain :-). And it's not a bad filter after all. But with the filter from ZWO, I get halos around bright stars (for ex, Eastern Veil Nebula). With the one from STC, I don't have that problem. Unfortunately, the STC Duo-Narrowband filter is often overlooked. Although several vendors say it's better quality than the Optolong, but I can't compare because I don't have one.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek btw Cuiv. Speedy recovery. I read about your accident.
@@beatriceheinze2294 i used both but couldn´t compare them one on one. The STC is of the same if not better quality as the L-Xtreme. Some say the STC is more sensitive to Ha whereas the Xtreme more to OIII.
Cuiv, thanks for one more superinformative and senseful video. And many thanks for coming back to the channel with this new energy. It's great to see you again with new video pills almost every other day.
I was super excited when you touched the point of the bandpass shift on fast telescopes, because I'm imaging with a SCT 9.25 using both Hyperstar f2.3 and f6.3 focal reducer configurations, and I own a mix of fast and standard Baader NB filters (Highspeed for Ha, and std 7-8nm for OIII and SII). As you said, all of them work quite well in both configurations, but I guess not in optimal way in both (Ha should make its best at f2.3 and OIII and SII should do it at f.6.3) but since I cannot compare with others, I cannot say how much they are affected.
I wanted however to understand the effect of the fast optical system and, while you provide certain interesting details, I must say I still don't get full understanding. On one side you explained how the different angle of the light coming from the outer part of the telescope lens/mirrow gets blocked by the filter, with the effect of an smaller effective aperture (you lose part of the system "fastness"), but looking at IDAS filter graphs you can see a real shift of the banpass central wavelength towards the blue side.. So my understanding question is whether the effect is a reduction of the effective aperture of the telescope? or actually a shift to a bluer wavelength of the filter bandpass, which may leave the Ha, OII or SII emission wavelength partly or totally out of the filter bandpass?
Thanks again for all your work with these videos!!!
It is indeed a shift to a bluer wavelength of the filter bandpass, which may leave the Ha, OII or SII emission wavelength partly or totally out of the filter bandpass (more pronounced at edge of scope) - this means you're losing more and more signal as you go to the edge of the scope objective, therefore closing the aperture for the useful signal... but keeping it wide open for light pollution!
Hey Cuiv! - This is a subject I've followed along with myself too so I can appreciate the accuracy of information you have provided for people, bravo! :-)
I couldn't help but notice the VR headset on the side there by the way, brilliant to see! I love VR :-) (especially Beat Saber!!)
Good eye! That one is the Reverb G2, which I use for flight simulation (for the rest, I use the Oculus Quest 2, and PCVR wirelessly). VR is awesome!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek That's brilliant! :D I gave real thought to a Reverb G2 as they are excellent!! In the end though for my playspace, the Quest 2 (vr desktop wireless pcvr) ended up replacing my RIft S entirely, - so happy! :-)
Excellent video, it was very interesting , i totally agree with your opinion and your suggestions regarding the filters bands pass. I hope you are felling better 😎
Good video. I agree with your SII assessment. Not sure I agree with your Hb comments. Thanks for making this video...!
Thanks Jim! I think Hb probably makes sense once you get to a lower Bortle zone, as there is some signal indeed. But I really don't like that it lets in all that light pollution and moonlight for what I see as little benefit...
Cuiv,
A great video, I have the line of Optolong from L-Pro to L-Extreme. There is a caveat to the using the NB OSC filters like the L-Extreme or even the L-Enhance. For objects that have significant reflection nebula/components, the L-Pro is the better filter. L-Enhance will block noticeable detail from reflections components in a mixed emission/reflection target like M78. The L-Extreme blocks almost all reflection - rendering targets like M45 mere ghosts of what can be imaged with the L-Pro or even no filter. Characteristics of the target have to be considered when selecting the appropriate filter.
thank you very much for such an informative video! i currently shoot with a nikon 400mm f/2.8 (its stars are pin sharp corner to corner on full frame at f/2.8) and i still have a triad ultra filter from when i had slower scopes. i haven’t shot with the triad ultra much because the bandpass transmission goes down so much at high speeds like f/2.8. recently radian came out with a triad ultra designed for high speeds, with the bandpasses pre-shifted so that they get shifted back to the correct wavelengths when shooting at f/3 or faster. i put up my original triad ultra for sale and was going to buy this f/3 filter, but thankfully your video made me reconsider. i did some more research and found the (now that i’m of your logic lol) way better dual 5nm bandpass Antlia ALP-THS 2, designed for fast scopes too. Designed for shooting between f/2.2 and f/3.6, which i thankfully fall right in the middle of, i think im actually more interested in the slightly wider bandpass because as you described, it’ll very possibly let in the light coming in from the centre of my lens’ objective as well! plus, it’s half the price of the triad ultra f/3!!!
thank you again for your thoughts, what do you think about my choice?
Cuiv, excellent review. Appreciate your deep dive into the weeds on this!
Thank you! Glad this is helpful!
I think I am going to go with the NBZ because I live in Bortle 5 and have access to Bortle 4 to 2 within an hour or less drive and I HATE HALOS. I wish I could afford the Antlia ALP-T but I cannot and I will be imaging with an f/4.5 and f/4 scope which brushes the limits of both the L-Extreme and the Antlia ALP-T. Awesome video.
I had the Triad filter, but sold it and got the L-Extreme. Great filter! I use it with the ASI533 and the ASI2600. The only issue I have is star colour using the L-Extreme. To combat the bad star colour I add subs using an L-Pro filter.
That's a good way of combatting star color issues!
Great overview of the different filters there - I learnt a lot. I have the L-extreme filter which I have used with Skywatcher ESPRIT 120ED and my ASI294mcpro and it worked brilliantly at picking up the Ha and OIII signal, even in full moonlight. The only problem I had with it was that I got very defined and hard edged halos around many of the brighter stars which were bloody impossible for me to get rid of. I have yet to work out if it's a function of the filter or how I have it setup. However, my Optolong 6.5nm OIII filter I use with the 2600mmpro has no such issue thankfully.
Yeah those halos can be annoying. I'm one of those people who doesn't care one bit about halos so I'm OK with them in general...
Sold my L-Extreme, got the Ultimate. Attenuates halos...a lot.
Very nice and thorough comparison!
I’ve got the Optolong L-eXtreme and the L-Pro. I figured that these will give me the best coverage for most objects in my Bortle 7 environment. The L-Pro has actually been working fantastically well, even for emission nebulae. The L-eXtreme has been used on the Wizard Nebula and I was blown away by the results. There’s no way I’m going to drop $1,1100 US on a filter. I’d rather spend that on the ASI294MC Pro.
Be careful with the 294 & narrowband though it is very, very demanding about calibration!
@@CuivTheLazyGeekI trying to make a point that the Triad filter costs as much as a camera. I have the ASI533MC Pro and I think it’s an amazing camera. I chose it over the 294 because of the amp glow on the 294.
you should check out the new ASKAR filter's that just came out it's two filters in a set one is HA+Oiii and the other is S2+Oiii and they are cheaper than most brands.
Just received mine to test :D
i've recently been shooting with my 2" L-extreme and DSLR - with the 2" filter mounted in front of lens - and I've been getting great results - I get a bit of an aperture restriction, but as your diagram shows, no issues with light angle. Shooting with 6d and Samyang 135mm for example. Also 300mm F4 L.
Sounds like an excellent combination!
The IDAS NBZ is great with a hyperstar, definitely outperforms the L-enhance, I don't use the L-extreme due to the band shift at F2
I agree totally. Never knew why they added S2 and Hb
Cuiv, considering the anime shirts you've worn in the videos I'm guessing you might be an anime fan? I go way back to the days of Astro Boy (Tetsuwan Atomu) and Kimba the White Lion , (Janguru Taitei) both by Osamu Tezuka, who I got to meet in person at the LA meeting of ASIFA not long before he passed away. The group gave him a beautifully made 2' tall statue of Astro Boy and it moved him to tears. I would bet you that no matter how many anime you might have, I have considerably more I've collected over the past 60+ years up until, literally, today.
I wanted to ask you where you got the Studio Ghibli shirt you're wearing in this video. I started looking online but haven't been able to find one.
I'm sorry to disappoint, I'm actually not that huge of an anime fan (I watch mostly the mainstream stuff), but I definitely am a Studio Ghibli fan. Amazing that you could meet Ozamu Tezuka! As for that t-shirt, it was given to me by family in France. My guess is that you can only find it there...
Excellent video with fantastic analysis....as always Cuiv! I hope your recovery is on-schedule. I'm going to be long-winded here (again...lol...your videos always get me thinking...), but hopefully the following 'food for thought' will be interesting/helpful.
1. Regarding the issues advertized by IDAS:
(a) I certainly agree that fast optical systems will cause bandpass shifting, which would reduce the signal reaching the sensor (thereby reducing the signal to noise ratio in the raw images, and doing so with increasing amounts towards the edge of the photographic field) Furthermore, any tilting of the filter from perpendicular to the optical axis will also exacerbate this issue.
(b) However, the IDAS filter has a relatively wide bandpass for narrowband filtering (12nm). Typical bandpasses for separate H-alpha, H-beta, OIII & SII filters are between 3nm and 7nm. This means that the IDAS filters are letting in a lot more light from sources other than emission nebula in space..in otherwords, light pollution. Consequently, the background noise in raw images will be higher than when using a 3nm to 7nm narrowband filter. This will reduce the signal to noise ratio, and the problem may not be rectified in post-processing. I don't know the answer to the following question, but it's worth considering: "Will the negative effects of light pollution with 12nm bandpass filters reduce the S/N ratio more or less than the negative effects of bandpass wavelength shift in 'fast' optical systems?". 🤔
(c) Imagers using a refractor with a focal reducer could place one of the narrowband filters that you compared in front of the focal reducer, and that would allow the filter to do its thing without being subjected to light rays hitting it at a severe angle. e.g. If you have a refractor with a native f-ratio of f/6, and use a 0.75x focal reducer (which results in an f/4.5 system), placing the NB filter ahead of the reducer means the NB filter 'sees' an f/6 light cone, not a 'faster f/4.5 light cone. As far as I understand, the primary negative to this strategy is that you may need a larger NB filter in some systems if you want to avoid vignetting (whether vignetting could be a concern will, in-part, depend on the distance the NB filter is ahead of the optical centre of the reducer, the f-ratio of the telescope objective, and the size of the sensor.). 🤔
2. Another consequence of bandpass shift could be shifting some of the OIII signal (which is in the transition zone between blue & green) from illuminating both blue & green pixels to illuminating more green than blue. I don't think that a comparable issue would occur with a shift in the H-beta, H-alpha & SII bandpasses. 🤔
3. This is another whole ball of wax, but I wonder if the 'bandpass' curves for the red, green & blue 'micro-filters' that are situated on the sensor pixels in a OSC could vary from one sensor type to another, which in-turn could influence the colours displayed in the debayered raw image. i.e. Is it possible that one sensor type could 'see' the OIII regions in a nebula as more blue than green, then another sensor type would 'see' the OIII regions in the same nebula as more green than blue? 🤔
4. Regarding the Sightron Japan Quad Filter & Radian Triad Quad Ultra Filter
Cuiv, you are quite right in saying that the SII signal from most emission nebulae is usually a lot weaker than the H-alpha signal. So, IF the two signals overlap, then - yes - the SII signal will be swamped by the H-apha signal. However, as many images in the Hubble Palette demonstrate, there can be SII emitting regions in a nebula that are in a different location than the H-apha emitting regions, and vice-versa. In those cases, the SII would not be swamped, but would be on its own. Having said that, the fact that both H-apha and SII signals will be seen by a OSC as red, means that when we look at an image taken through one of these NB filters, there will be no way to see which red nebulosity is from the H-alpha signal, which is from the SII signal, and which is from a combination of H-apha & SII ! 🤔
5. As for the issue with having an H-beta bandpass...
Kudos Cuiv for mentioning the 'trick' of copying the H-alpha channel to a new layer in the image, reducing the brightness, and assigning it to the Blue Channel. 👍 I don't think that a lot of newer astro-imagers are aware of this strategy. 👍 If I recall correctly, the ratio of H-beta:H-alpha is 1:6 in planetary nebulae, and 1:12 in emission nebulae, but I could be wrong. Also, you made an excellent point re: visual astronomy...in fact, the first time I ever saw the Horsehead Nebula through a telescope (without having my doubts) was when a friend let me use his Lumicon H-beta filter (*) that was designed for visual applications! And, BTW, that observation was in Bortle 1 or 2 skies....the effects of natural atmospheric skyglow on visual observing should not be underestimated. 🤔
(*) I'm revealing how very old I am by mentioning Lumicon! lol
4. Last.....a question: Could a filter such as the Radian Triad Ultra Quad filter be used as a Luminance AND super light pollution filter when using a Mono camera in urban locations? While it may affect the relative brightnesses of the stars in the field, it would do wonders for emphasizing emission nebulae in LRGB images, right? Also, could one take Luminance images with a OSC through one of these NB filters, then take RGB data using the OSC without one of these filters, then produce an LRGB with better contrast, even if light pollution was not severe? 🤔
Thanks for this detailed comment!
1.c. That is a very good point - I personally hate doing so because it makes switching filters so much more painful. But it makes a lot of sense
2. The OIII signal itself is not shifted, only the bandpass is. So that would mean less OIII signal, and more LP shifted
3. That is indeed possible, but in either case OIII will pass both green and blue. Final image shouldn't be too affected
5. Lumicon is not that old! :D
6. Yes, a filter like the Triad Ultra, L-eNhance, or L-eXtreme can be used in place of the L filter for better details within the nebula captured in RGB - similar to HaLRGB. Would it provide a major advantage over HaRGB? Would depend on the target! As for combing OSC data with and without filter, that sounds tricky! But could be attempted!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thank you Cuiv! I appreciate you taking the time to read my missive & respond to each point! 👍👍 All your points were helpful. 😀 re: 1(c) Very true, especially if the imaging session is split between different types of object (emission/reflection nebulae, or only part of the session is free of moonlight....)
Thanks for the video. Would love a target/filter video as well
Excellent video Cuiv. Totally agree, I have the LExtreme and I’m in a bortle 4, it works great, I love it, from my bortle 4, I don’t get much light pollution anyway, so 7nm if fine👍 Clear skies
This is an area I really want to explore in depth. It’s fascinating about H-beta. I guarantee you there’s an abundance of imagers who only know they don’t need it. Visual folks are familiar with it but even they rarely prioritize it. For visual it’s only really helpful for a handful of targets. If I personally had to guess why it’s included is that it’s a marketing trick. “Our model also includes hydrogen beta transmission!” You have a much broader experience with filters than I do. I’ve toyed with practically every planetary filter available. I wish I had all the money I’ve wasted on them. Great video. This is one I will continue to check comments on. Hopefully it will inspire some educated responses. Let’s kidnap a filter developer. Jk
YES! I want to kidnap a filter developer, along with a whole factory, and make my own filters! :D
It looks like Optolong have heard your request Cuiv and the L-Ultimate filter is coming soon. Dual bandwidth filter with each band passing 3nm of H-Alpha and OIII. I'm looking forward to this one.
From Testar, my local store - "The new Optolong L-Ultimate filter is a light pollution dual band filter designed to drastically reduce the effect of light pollution. Its two ultra-narrow 3nm passing bands isolate the nebulae emissions in H-Alpha (red) and OIII (green-blue).
It blocks the light pollution, maximises nebulae signal and makes the sky background dark. The L-Ultimate filter is designed for astrophotography under urban skies"
Wow!! Amazing video! Very informative and in a way that’s easy to understand! I wish i knew about all this when I got my l-enhance! Think I’ll sell that and get an l-extreme now!
Maybe keep the L-eNhance for a comparison first!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I just ordered the l-extreme. Will do what you said and compare first. Thank you very much for your videos! Love them. I just ordered a 8” f4 Newtonian too. Can’t wait!
Hi Cuiv, Love your videos please keep them coming whenever you can, they are so informative and for beginning Astro imagers like myself they make life so much easier. I imagine in Tokyo you are in a Bardahl 8+ sky like I am here in Cleveland Ohio. Are use an L pro light, clip and filter with my canon and it’s OK but I was thinking about the L extreme. Now that I’ve seen your video I think I will go ahead and get the L extreme. By the way what do you do in Tokyo I work for a company out of Kyoto and I used to travel there quite often before the pandemic. Please keep the videos coming and I hope your healing is going well.
I work in software for a US company :)
Great and very informative video! For the money, IMO, the IDAS NBZ filter is the best filter on the market. Great quality and works great with fast optics. Also very reasonably priced when compared to the other filters. I use the NBZ filter from Bortle 8 skies and get amazing results.
IDAS really does make good filters!
Great video Cuiv, really informative as always :)
Thank you!
WOW!! I do understand what you are saying...a lot of info!! Thanks for all your efforts! Do you know when the Optolong L Extreme F is coming to market?
Ya Cuiv is back, Hope your back is doing better, I am suprised you didnt include the Idas NB1 , NB2 , NB3, When I talked with Borg they told me the NBZ was only meant for fast optics and was already Pre-shifted for the bandpass shift that occurs with Fast Optics. Since I am parting with my C8 and Hyperstar because my Stellarvue SVX 80mm just does a better job with similar FOV. I see no purpose in it. As far as the NB2 and NB3 its a cheaper way to do SHO palette than spending $1100 on the Radian Triad filter maybe it the Triad was 1/2 the cost it would be worth it but $1100 is ridiculous for a OSC filter
NB1, 2, 3 are mentioned briefly in the video - The Japanese IDAS website mentions them as no longer being in production (remaining stock only), so I skipped them
One of the best narrow band filter reviews I've seen. You address the major issue of different emission strengths for HA vs HB etc, which has a major impact on imaging with a OSC sensor, and which most people ignore. Bandpass is not everything; signal strength from different molecular species is also very important. You nail this.
I'd love to know your opinion on filters for imaging galaxies. Here narrow band is no good? Is just a Neodymium filter good enough for Bortle 8+ sites?
Thanks Mark! I have to say, for imaging galaxies I don't know of really good filters... So I stick with Luminance! It kind of works, even in Bortle 8/9!
Good post Mark 👍👍 One tiny correction...the emission lines discussed in Cuiv's video are produced by singlely or doubly ionized individual atoms of Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen & Sulphur, which emit in wavelengths that are between 300 and 1000 nanometres or so. In general, molecules (including H2, O2, N2, and S or S8) emit in the infrared & even longer wavelengths (generally wavelengths on the order of centimetres...e.g. the important 21cm molecular Hydrogen line studied by radio astronomers).
H alpha vs H beta - isn't it possible some regions of space will have different pumping energy level distributions, so the H-a vs H-b ratio won't be constant across the image?
Very informative! Thanks!
Great video and insights. I was really debating with my inner financially responsible self - about TRIAD filters.
- What do you consider a "fast system" ? f ... what? 3.9, 5 etc or - less than f3?
- While we are all plagued by/with light pollution - usually most of the people still take the hike and go somewhere darker (Bortle 6 or less ...). Then more of these filters make sense...
Based on Astrodon's documentation, I'd put the border at around 3.5 but it's difficult to say.
And true on your second remark!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Then again, I’m yet to buy my first narrow band filter of any kind... I tried faking it with different broad(er) band filters - waste of money. So - thank you for this review - I will buy L-extreme ... almost bought Triad 😄
Cuiv have you seen that Antlia filters have a new dual band filter (ALP-T Dualband 5nm NB filter) coming out that has 5nm band passes for each Ha & Oiii. Looks interesting
YES! I may actually get access to one prior to release (although I still need to buy it :) )
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I will look forward to it. I'm considerind upgrading my Oiii filter to their 3nm Oiii filter I would be interested in a comparison with other similar Oiii filters if you could get hold of them.
As usual, excellent explanation! Thanks!
g.
Glad you liked it!
Hi Quiv, love the vids, love the channel, love you! Altair have a 7nm dual band filter for £235, not quite the 3 or 4 nm we dream of but a step in the right direction. I'm guessing it will be £600 when it finally arrives.
Thanks David :) That Altair filter really intrigues me, because they say it works all the way to F2 without a lot of bandpass shift. I'm really curious about it!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I see you got one of these filters, I've had some good results with mine, look forward to hearing your views on it. cheers
Another very informative video Cuiv I've got a RASA 11 & I've been looking around online for a filter an the IDAS looks like the one to go for, I live in what is apparently a Bortle 4 area although I'm not totally convinced but I'm hoping the filter will work well for targets lower on the horizon, I'm hoping to give the scope a first light soon & as I don't have any filters for it other than a sky glow filter I'm probable going to go for a target that's straight up above me here like the Elephants trunk nebula so fingers crossed I'll be able to pull some detail from it.
Good luck!
Thanks for the insight!
I can _almost_ understand the rationale behind the inclusion of S2. After all, those of us who image with mono cameras use S2 filters all the time for SHO. Sulphur does offer up distinct structure. No, you can't separate it from the Ha, but it at least offers up some minimal value. The Hb? No need at all. It's a complete waste. You want to include hydrogen in your green/blue? Do so via pixel math. In fact, here's a simple blend...
R: Ha
G: 0.80*O + 0.20*Ha
B: 0.95*O + 0.05*Ha
If I were to buy, I'd make the same decision you did: L-eXtreme for the slower systems and IDAS for fast. Of course, this is my opinion. I am neither endorsed, nor sponsored to make these statements. Your mileage may vary. Etc, etc, etc :D
Completely agree there - still, the S2 structures would be so noisy compared to the Ha ones...
Do one for "Antila Triband RGB Ultra filter" vs "Antila Quad Band Filter" vs "IDAS GNB" filter
Great info here, Cuiv, as usual. I love your scientific and logical approach to astrophotography topics, over-the-top enthusiasm, and ever-present humor and insights that always keeps me chuckling. Please keep up the great work. I have a stock entry-level Canon DSLR and I'm wondering if narrowband filters like these are worth the cost given that the DSLR has an IR-cut filter in it. I can't seem to find any specs on my camera's IR-cut filter in terms of how aggressive it is and if it reduces the H-alpha in any way, and I was hoping you had some insight. I have access to a Bortle 3 site if I drive about 30 min but would love to do more imaging from my backyard more often (Bortle 5-6) and/or on nights when the moon is a problem. Do you think the Optolong L-eXtreme would help even with a DSLR?
Hey Greg! Thanks for that feedback and for your support :-) it's a tough question to answer. The IR filter in your camera cuts roughly 75% of H-Alpha, but that still means 25% comes through. And since Ha is so strong, long integration times can help. An l-eXtreme would help tighten the stars and do narrowband HOO palettes, so it gives you access to a different style than broadband. But how well it will work on an unmodded camera, I'm not sure... Especially when thinking about the additional sources of noise like thermal noise. I'd probably avoid it until I mod the camera!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks so much for the information and insight, Cuiv! Maybe I'll save the $$ on the filter right now (since I've fruitlessly tried so many they are falling out of my camera bag) and think about putting it toward a OSC dedicated astro camera as we get to spring and summer. Much appreciated!!
Good stuff Cuiv I've been happy with my L-enhance for a few months in bortle 6, just made the move to the L-extreme so interested to see how this will go might make a video on the comparison.👍
I'd watch that! I will make a prediction that even from a Bortle 6 you'll get a significant improvement for the same imaging time (at same elevation of the target), and tighter stars as an added benefit!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I certainly hope so, I think will be a good test like you say keep my elevation consistent. All I need now is some clear nights here in Australia, we've had some very average weather. Hopefully I can get Legolas out soon!!!
I'm in Tokyo like you :) And I've L-eXtreme as well, love it. Thanks Cuiv :)
We do love our light pollution :-)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek hahaha exactly, but now is typhoon season and the weather was terrible these days right?
Why you don’t take photo of the whole Milky Way? I always go to Jogashima, Kanagawa to shoot the Milky Way, hope can see you there one day. Here’s Jogashima’s milky way 😂
th-cam.com/video/jI8U25q2HYs/w-d-xo.html
Nice video Cuiv! I currently image under a bortle sky 4 using Optolong L Enhance filter using a dslr with good results, however recently i ordered a dedicated cooled camera the Altair 26c and i am thinking soon to try also tighter narroband filters, maybe like the Antila filter 5nm or similar . I heard you are in an Astrophotography break, when you restart astrophotography let me know if you are interested in a collaboration, i think we could do some nice comparison between bortle 4 and 9.
22:33. It was Optolong. Optolong did it with ther L-Ultimate. Praise Optolong, hallelujah!
L-extreme looks like the best for emission neb. What’s your choice for broadband.
Hi Cuiv. Love all the vids! Question: do you experience significant Halos using the L-extreme? I had the L-enhance and sold it because the Halos were terrible. I get less Halos with the IDAS NBZ. But after this video I am considering the L-Extreme-hence I'm curious if you see bad Halos with it. Thanks-Tommy
There are halos around bright stars (see here: th-cam.com/video/9B0T9CkyI10/w-d-xo.html ) but I personally don't mind at all (I kind of like these types of halos)
Cuiv, thank you for the band pass shifting as per the focal length. If I refer to the transmittance graph (at 5:07 for example) and I look at the transmittance bands (at low focal length) of the iOptron L-Extreme, my conclusion is that the Halpha is move alot toward the Sodium spec (which I think it is light polution) and the Oiii is shifted to the Hbeta. So ... the filters that we buy are not really that good... Then (looking angain to that graph) the % of light passing through the Halpha and Oiii is quite low for a low focal length.
Am I right Cuiv?
I can’t wait for you to try Chroma’s hahah
😂
Now that Optolong has an L-Ultimate is that your holy grail for OSC Narrowband?
At F4 and slower! Assuming the quality control on the filters is good!
I wish you published this a few months ago… I picked up a an L extreme and I shot f1.9 about 50% of the time.
I'm sure you still go great results - you just weren't as efficient as you could be, but that's it.
Cuiv, did you consider the band passes of the RGGB bayer filter on your camera? I'm purely speculating but does the O3 end up on the GG (which is good as its weaker than Ha), the Ha ends up on the R, and the Hb end up on the B? Therefore you end up with 2 pixels Ha+Hb and 2 pixels O3.
NB imaging with multiband pass filters with colour cameras is complicated cubed, mono is simples.
To answer my own question - yes this appears to be the intent of the tri/quad filters, blue pixels to the left, green to the right.
Its too late on a Friday now but can you deconvolute the B and GG signals cross over with the band pass, double the B signal and subtract it from the G, half the G signal and subtract it from the B........ or just do mono - save my sanity.
You are right! But still... I think the benefit pales in comparison to the drawbacks (loss of sanity, and gain in light pollution, e.g. net loss in SNR I would think...), Thanks for looking into it!
Hi! Thank you for your video, it’s very clear and useful! I’m evaluating to buy the L-Extreme but I have a doubt: with a small refractor (70/420, f6) could I have problem with l-extreme? Maybe it’s better the Idas nebula booster or my focal ratio is not so fast? Thanks and greatings from Italy!
L-eXtreme should work very well on such a system, even the L-Ultimate would work without issue!
Hey, Cuiv! Thanks for the info. I agree with what you just said, but I have just one comment on the l-eXtreme: not so good if you have only a DSLR. In this case the l-eNhance is better choice.
For an unmodded DSLR in other words?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Good question! Ruz Farsaad (AstroFarsography) did a test some time ago, and I believe he did it with a modded DSLR. The results were not as good as with the normal l-eNhance.
@@enriqueboeneker I'll have to look for that! I wonder if he fell to the temptation of exposing each frame longer on the DSLR, thus accumulating thermal noise (he likely did so to overwhelm read noise). In theory for the same subframe exposure times, we should be getting a slightly better result with the L-eXtreme. I'll search for that video!
Here’s the link to his video. The camera was modded, but since the bandpass is narrower then he had to expose more time and this caused more thermal noise.
The link to the video is: th-cam.com/video/MlVHHmN_61g/w-d-xo.html
@@enriqueboeneker Yeaaah that's a common mistake of users going from 7nm narrowband to 3nm narrowband filters as well. Using narrower band passes means you *can* expose longer not that you *have to* expose longer as Ruz says (just like going to a super dark sky - you can expose much longer but you don't have to). Sure you won't have optimized the signal to read noise ratio but it's better than going ham on the thermal noise. The useful signal from the nebula is still the same per unit of time - but you're capturing less light pollution at the same time. If you can get the thermal noise to be the same in the test, then the narrower band passes win. We see this with normal monochrome imaging as well with users going from 7nm to 3nm and complaining they have to expose longer because the image is darker - they don't have to, the narrower bandpass gives them the option to do so (and yes exposing longer with a cooled camera will bring better results)...
I know this is 2 years old but I have a question: I want to get more HOO or SHO color palettes from my 2600MC. I have a place to go for Bortle 3 but my home is Bortle 8. Do I use these filters for nebula when shooting in dark sky areas or just high light polution? Should nebula always be shot with filters with OSC?
In many planetary nebulae oxygen will be strongest while H-alpha may actually be more [N II] than hydrogen emission :D Also the ZWO/Sightron thingies just look like glorified over-expensive UHC filters (Baader UHC-S style).
I am a bit slow, so I didn't get this vid until now - but again: A great one, Cuiv! Question related to band shifting: Does this imply that there are more benefits of using smaller camera sensors on your scope if you are using narrowband filters?
Thanks Hans! Smaller camera sensors wouldn't really provide a benefit. It's true that to reach corners, some light rays will need steeper angles.... but you can always crop with a larger sensor! In the end larger sensor is always better..... but more costly :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks, Cuiv. For my understanding: Why would a bigger sensor cropped be better than a smaller sensor (assuming pixel count pr inch, QE etc is approx equal) if the size of the final image is the same? I am not sure if I understand why a bigger sensor always will be better? (DSO imaging, that is - not planetary/solar/lunar)
I hope you are in good health, great & informative video, you excluded the L-Pro? why?
Thank you! The L-Pro is more of a broadband light pollution filter - I focused on narrowband exclusively!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks!
Hey Cuiv, I’m just starting out and I’m waiting for ZWO to ship my AM5 mount. I’ve already got an ASI224MC to do planetary imaging with my Mewlon 180c. This can double as the guide camera for my FC-100DC. My question is would it be simpler in the short term for me to use my planetary camera to image double stars and open clusters just to get my polar alignment and processing chops together before I buy an expensive, cooled big-sensor camera?
I have the ZWO Duo Band as well and it works pretty well with my hyperstar. Where my L-Extreme does not. . I'm looking into getting the IDAS NBZ but no one has it in stock. ;o(
There is one filter I am VERY curious about, it's this: www.altairastro.com/altair-dual-band-7nm-cmos-nebula-filter-2-10457-p.asp ,. Same bandpasses as the L-eXtreme, but they claim extremely little bandpass shift thanks to flat top technology.
I have a Rok 135 f2 setup that use with ZWO filters (7nm) and a mono cam. I bet f2.8 is too fast. I’d like to know better how the transmission curve shifts?
I know the autofocus is all over.
Excellent video! Just a question i have, as I’m looking to get a telescope and i have the Nikon z5 mirrorless. I was told by someone if your camera is not modified then you will want to use the L-Enhance as the L-Extreme
will be too narrow of a band pass for stock DSLRs.
What are your thoughts?
I would still go with the L-eXtreme - It lets in the same wavelength (e.g. same about of signal), but less light pollution. That may make you tempted to expose longer, but you don't strictly have to (although not optimal)
Could you cover some laymen’s/ budget filters? The svbony mostly. Are they any good?? I picked up a uhc from svbony but not sure what to expect from it.. as it’s my first filter
I can't send you a RASA, but I did pull the trigger on the NBZ. I'll do a comparison with the NBZ vs L-eNhance with my RASA and let you know how it goes.
so you remove the Celestron RASA quad band?
@@davejenkins8524 What RASA quad band?
Great idea man. Please, comment your experience for here. I've a Hyperstar and I want to know what NB filter is ok for my Asi533 mc. Thanks.
I think I learned about it from Dylan O'd.
Will look forward to that, thanks!
Got the IDAS LPS D2, Lenhance and Lextreme. Lextreme is impressive for nebulas and cuts star bloating down , lenhance is much more natural in my bortle 5 skies at home. The IDAS... well its useless for me - not good for nebulas, not usable for galaxies. But 40min away I can enjoy bortle 2.9 skies and thats my favourite: UV/IR cut luminance filter and natural star colors.