The unusual trains that ran on Steam AND Diesel - Kitson Still Engine
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video, we take a look at the Kitson Still engine as well as a few other locomotive that not only had a boiler, but a diesel engine as well
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Typo in the thumbnail! Alert! Alert!
what was it?
Deisel
omg omg omg!!!!111
@@mariodykstra6555 fixed
@@kayenzky not yet fixed fricking fool
The locomotives is the most European looking, British Locomotives I've seen
Yes
A locomotive that goes without "beautification"
Nah, I think that honor would go to the flying Scotsman.
@@aaronfield7899 To the present-day turnout of that loco, yes.
@@aaronfield7899 only when fitted with the German style smoke detectors. Otherwise she has the classic LNER/Gresley look.
Let me add some information on soviet hybrids. The first one ("ТП1" in cyrilic or "TP1" in latin) wasn't running on diesel but on fuel gas generated in tender right from coal. That solved the problem with two different types of fuel but produced a new one with gas generator maintenance. The second engine was named "Number 8000". It had an interesting cylinder construction: there were two pistons dividing the volume into three parts. The central was used for fuel combustion and the others for steam expansion. As far as I know the locomotive was used for passenger and light freight trains from 1942 to 1948. The third one ("Number 8001") was designed as a more powerful version of "Number 8000". The war suspended the project and later it was canceled as pure diesel locomotives became available.
That's one crazy project! I love it. Thanks for the additional info.
Now I really want to make a working model of these....
That was FAR more complex than I expected, I just thought they had gone with the same route of those electric-steam engines.
Very sad! I like the design and the Idea of this first Locomotive. I think just about 5-10 years later (in the 40ies and 50ies) this Engine could be a great sucessful helper.
That's amazing, never heard of this, thank you for bringing this to our attention.
Thanks for taking my request!
Hello from Detroit Michigan brother thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise
... former "Downriver Rat" here
On today's episode of guess that music... Oil Ocean Zone Act 2 from Sonic Mania! (GREAT choice!)
3:10 THIS THING LOOKS SOOOOO AWESOME!!!
Awesome oil ocean music, perfect fit for this vid
If you want to make a Video about it, there is a steam engine here in Krefeld Germany that is powered by a diesel Motor running an electric generator wich then heats the Oil that fires the engine. The trains name is "Schluff"
So that’s how Aurora from Metro Exodus works
The Kitson-Still principle is alive and well as Co-Generation plants use the exhaust heat from a gas turbine to generate steam for a steam turbine.
more specifically in diesel peaking stations that include heat recovery boilers.
“They say I can be anything so a became both”
The first hybrid.
Like how Diesel was a foreign concept to our knowledge at the time so the Middle East Oil Ocean Sonic Mania Remix has me that more engaged in this short video! 🛢️🦔
Interesting design I wonder if it'd work now since coal and diesel are now more abundant and mostly cheaper and fuel efficiency and high start up rate is kinda the craze in the railroad industry
Here is a much better idea: Have the exhaust heat from the diesel engine being used to power a STIRLING ENGINE, which turns a generator to add power to a set of batteries. Those batteries then assist the diesel engine. Hey, lets add this to a Toyota Prius and end up with a Prius that gets 80 mpg?
I love trains
These would be too expensive to run today
That year steam and diesel engine created
I guess you can call them patented Steam burgers.
I suppose you could.
I'd be interested to know why, though.
Music from Sonic
WOW steam AND DEISEL???
Has Europe or any other country experimented with Gas Turbine locomotives like the UP did?
I think the original French TGV concepts ran on gas turbine before they decided on electric
The UK had a few gas turbines, but they were just experimental prototypes and did not go in to production.
Several gaz turbine was built in Kolomna, USSR in mid '60s and, I know, there are some modern in Russia but Im not sure are they in service now or not.
@@Titan604
The Great Western ordered two just before nationalisation, 18000 had a single large combustion chamber, was started on light oil, and then turned over to heavy fuel oil. 18100 used something more like an aircraft engine; it burned light oil, but there were proposals to convert it to burn heavy oil. After withdrawal 18000 was returned to Switzerland, where it was built. The power plant was removed and it was used for some sort of testing, I think relating to the wheel/rail interface. It was later returned to the UK where it is now at the Didcot Railway Centre in Oxfordshire, but it is just an empty shell.
18100 was converted into a 25 kV a.c. locomotive for testing on the first section to be electrified with this system in the UK, South of Manchester. When the purpose built a.c. locomotives became available it was stored for a while, and eventually scrapped. Both of these locomotives used electric transmission and had a cab at each end, looking similar to a Diesel.
Later BR had a third gas turbine locomotive, GT3, which looked more like a steam locomotive,, with a single cab at the rear, and a steam locomotive style tender which contained the fuel tank, and I think the train heating boiler. This one had a mechanical transmission. It was scrapped. Somebody has built a five inch model of it which has an actual gas turbine power plant.
There was an attempt to build a coal fired gas turbine locomotive. I know very little about it. The power plant was completed, and run on test, but there were problems with it and the project was abandoned.
In the ‘70s the APT-E (Advanced Passenger Train-Experimental) used several small gas turbine engines. The later APT-P prototype trains were 25 kV electric. These did enter service for a while, but the project was stopped. One of the protype trains has been preserved, as has the gas turbine powered APT-E which when I saw it was at the National Railway Museum in York, I think it’s still there. They also had one of the engines on display in one of their buildings.
There was, of course, a 25kV a.c. system already operating in the UK at this time, North of Manchester...
Weazel engine
Honestly really surprised to hear how well the Kitson engine worked, compared to a lot of other experimental engines its drawbacks were very minor. Its a real shame it never got preserved because id love to know what it sounded like!
I wonder if someone can cook up a similar engine with modern technology lol
@@harrymu148 very likely but it wouldn't go far it all in terms of commercial use.
A really loud horn probably
The first ever bi-modal locomotive if you think about it.
Hitachi, eat your heart out 🤣
More like the prius of trains but cooler
Yes
Let’s not forget about the Alco tri-power boxcabs.
There's also the Swiss Electric-steam locomotives, which could be powered by overhead wires running heating elements in the boiler. Those might have been later though, WWII era.
If a model of this is brought out the sound file would be quite a challenge!
I've always been curious as to what this would have sounded like!
Well, there is a Transport Fever 2 model of it... But they went with just a diesel sound file, basically ignoring the steam aspect of it...
Seems slightly sad that it didn't get any development, given that the initial prototype seems to have worked remarkably well - many prototypes are disasters areas that need complete rethinks, but this was obviously a concept with potential. There again, as conventional diesel loco tech (and diesel electric locos) were developed, I guess that any advantage over a simpler standard diesel loco would decline over time.
In a similar but different project, some Climax geared steam locomotives were actually converted to burn diesel fuel, using the same cylinders that originally used steam. Apparently, they worked quite well, and I believe that some of these conversions are still in service.
The only time I've seen any of the American geared locos ( Shay, Heisler, Climax) converted to run on gasoline or diesel, they've had their boilers and steam cylinders removed and a ICE installed so it drove the the wheels through the existing drive train.
@@turkeytrac1 Interesting.
@@sambrown6426 There's a significant difference between a Diesel locomotive, and a steam one which burns the same oil as a Diesel.
@@tooleyheadbang4239 You really think you can't modify the steam cylinders to burn diesel? They've got really high compression already, all you need is to add a valve train and a fuel system.
@@sambrown6426 I don't think anything of the sort. Whatever gave you that idea?
Sounds like if they had focused the design more around assisting larger trains uphill it might have a had a decent market for a while. Before it was even mentioned in the video I knew it was going to have a ton of tractive effort. Two engines over one wheel set means a huge friction coefficient.
The friction coefficient is a constant. The weight times the friction coefficient gives maximum pull, and the weight is limited by what the rails can tolerate. It has nothing to do with whether the weight is one big boiler or a small boiler and a small engine. The narrator says it was underpowered for its size.
@@grizwoldphantasia5005 The engine would've had incredible adhesion, which is why it was able to start any train it was given. It may not have as much power, but it was able to put that power down much better than normal steamies due to how heavy it was.
@@roadtrain_ Adhesion is weight times coefficient of adhesion. The coefficient is the same for all steel tires on steel rails. The weight has nothing to do with having double engines. There is no special magic to this engine.
@@grizwoldphantasia5005 It's also about the weight on top of the wheels pressing down against the tires.
@@roadtrain_ So? What has it got (in terms of adhesion) that any other 2-6-2 tank of the same total weight hasn't got? (An 0-6-0 has even better adhesion since all of its weight is on the driving wheels). The weight is limited by the maximum permissible axle load.
The Kitson-Still weighed 88 tons, 20 ton axle load, tractive effort 28,000 lb. For comparison a LNER V3 2-6-2T weighed just 59 tons with a TE of 25,000 lb (but the same max axle load). So maybe the Kitson-Still's weight was better distributed. Further afield a GWR 6100 2-6-2T weighed 79 tons with an axle load of just 17.6 tons and a TE of 27,300 lbs.
So the Kitson-Still was good but, for its weight, not marvellous. As grizwold said, not magic.
I suspect the starting ability of the Kitson-Still would be because its cylinders drive a crankshaft which is geared down to the wheels. Also the multiple cylinders (8) will mean much smoother torque delivery, so (possibly) less prone to starting a slip.
However that gearing-down would also, I think, limit its top speed - okay for freight traffic, not so good for passenger. Also limiting its speed would be the small boiler. Note that it had limited power. Generally, the size of the cylinders determines the maximum tractive effort (amplified by gearing in the case of the Kitson-Still), the size of the boiler determines the power output. The TE dictates how heavy a load it can pull, the power dictates the speed. (Roughly).
I'd LOVE to see a Bachmann model of this!
I will never not call these Steaisels.
there are so many combination/hybrid engine types that can be made and it would be cool to see them.
One unfortunate aspect of reality is that these complex engineering projects basically always are some level of failure and always get outcompeted by simpler designs that might be able to do less, but do what they do more cheaply, more reliably, more predictably, and often also just plain better ...
Unique ! 👌
Maybe one day you'll cover Fire-less , or "Steam Bottle" locomotives
Sort-of already happened. The Swiss Electric Steam Locomotives often worked as Fireless Locomotives on un-electrified Tracks.
Very, very interesting!
I had no idea that anybody had done anything like that.
I presume diesel electric hadn't gained traction yet (pun intended). Diesel electric solves the torque problem with electric motors, which have instant and powerful torque.
Imagine a steam loco with electricity driven tender wheels, loads of drawbar pull at low speeds.
@@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391 A booster engine on the rear bogie would be simpler.
The Steamies and the diesels would shut tf up when that engine shows up
I’m surprised none of these appeared on Thomas
Well, in my version of Journey Beyond Sodor, Theo (one of the experimental engines) is based on this instead of a hybrid of various Aveling and Porter railway traction engines.
How it felt like that this steam-diesel locomotive was featured on Thomas and Friends.
Literally a Toyota Prius in locomotive terms 🤣
Literally?
The LNER was weirdly into odd projects like this
Quite like to experiment with stuff.
NER did a bit before them mainly with small railcars.
I feel like this could have been a great engine to have in areas where diesel was already common like oil refineries or later on harbours
bro diesel powered with a steam loco? very interesting stuff
the idea of using heat from petrol / diesel engine is like reusing exhaust back into the engine or regenerative braking 🤔 , at least temporary like a NOS tank
It must have been a somewhat different Diesel engine than we are used to; the diagram of the stationary engine at the beginning shows a spark plug, and typically, Diesels are compression ignition; they don't use spark plugs.
Quite interesting video.
Diesel engines do use glow plugs but that's only for starting. Once the engine gets hot enough, the glow plugs are turned off and the engine can run off its own heat
Suggestion for a future episode: the Anderson-Holcroft Mechanical Vapour-ReCompression, semi-condensing steam locomotice. Little-known and VERY interesting!
Didn’t you do this already?
this engine showd be a thomas character...and i think ill call her "riyley"
This strangely reminded me of Tobias and the Half Pariah.
I believe BMW and a few semi-truck producers toyed with having a secondary steam engine using the waste heat from exhaust to improve horsepower and/or provide generator power.
this loco did not know what team it wanted to be on so it just chose both
I'm playing both sides that way I always come out on top
@@crestfallensunbro6001 to bad if you pick both sides your company goes bankrupt
Eugh
@@roshasensi2220 it's a sitcom refrance
@@crestfallensunbro6001 what the hell is a sitcom?
a steasel
So hybrids are nothing new. Too bad it was ahead of it's time.
This is what modern Americans want in a stream engine, probably
I think this engine should be called a 'Stiesel'.
Maybe Tobias was inspired by this engine
I'd kill for a oo model of this locomotive 🤣
I doubt that Swiss diesel-steam engine was ever built. There are quite good archives in Switzerland, and such a curiosity would have been widely know. I mean there were the electric steam locomotives during WW2.
Ah yes, the Stiesel.
You should cover Electric-Steam Locomotives.
The only example I could find was a electrified SBB E 3/3
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric-steam_locomotive
What the FUCK am I looking at? I've seen some weird locomotives but this takes the cake.
Edit: The madman actually made a vid on it some time ago: th-cam.com/video/pqsuBj40zw8/w-d-xo.html
Correct me if I'm wrong, is the background music one of the older sonic game's stage music? Like the oil levels, or underground/jungle (honestly don't remember what it was)
Yes, Oil Ocean Zone from Sonic 2.
Steam and diesel
So, steamsel?
Is that Oil Ocean Music :)
Why didnt they just buy fuel when it was cheap and invest the money they spent on expensive fuel on a huge tank to store fuel
The first hybrid engine
The 5/8 narrow gauge railroad I've spoken about uses primarily diesel locomotives for their regular rolling stock, but the V&T #11 4-4-0 replica they've got uses diesel oil as its heat source for the steam boiler. Which makes a lot more sense than a hybrid diesel/steam locomotive, honestly.
Can we please build a working replica of the Kitson-Still locomotive? After all, it would be able to pull at speed any train it can start.
Why would it be able to reach high speed? The driving wheels are geared down from the crankshaft. The Kitson-Still had a design top speed of 43mph, later raised to 55mph.
deisel train
Pretty cool to know it was used in my neck of the woods, back in its day!
A rare example of an experimental engine being successful. Plus I love both the design and concept of a locomotive like this. Makes me wish they experimented more on this type of engine so they could improve the power and maybe increase the efficiency even more
Trains are ducking cool man
0:41 what are those "walls" in The front of The loco for?
They often fitted steam locomotives with a "shed" on the front for test engineers to monitor pressure gauges, speed readings, measure cylinder pressure during stroke etc, you have to remember everything was measured machannicaly, with no wires or telemetory. The closest they got was a squiggly line on a roll of paper.
Some footage of one of the Soviet steam-diesel hybrids, 8000, can be seen here; th-cam.com/video/NwqA377mOjI/w-d-xo.html
Once again another freak show from the LNER.
It only ran trials on the LNER, it was offically part of the LNER.
I wonder if this could of worked in the US. I can imagine them running in Texas or Michigan, hauling light express freight between Dallas and Fort Worth or Detroit and Dearborn.
I can't help but think this design could be improved on today. Perhaps with 2 cabs like some diesel engines, one at the front, and 1 at the rear
This video is surreal to me because I was thinking of almost this exact idea and now this video is here saying it's actually been done before... so I'm not entirely crazy for thinking it's a good idea! There are definitely numerous ways the design could be improved today, like using a diesel-electric drivetrain coupled with steam cylinders. The diesel drivetrain eliminates the need for the cab to be at the rear, which makes the layout much more flexible. We also have many advances in material science today which would make steam engines much better if people were still making them. I'm just convinced there's a ton of untapped potential in steam technology in general, especially if combined with internal combustion engines like this.
Unfortunate. It's like the hybrid car of locomotives.
Can you please do a Steam Motors Locomotive next?
The design may look crazy, but diesel-mechanical, diesel-hydraulic, and diesel-electric locomotives are also complicated. Plus electric technology was much less advanced then compared to today.
Interesting how the background music for this was a remix of Sonic 2 - Oil Ocean Zone (as far as I can tell)
There was a segment in my book called (I didn't know that......did you know that trains run on water) weird name I know
A train that actually ran on diesel and steam I’m TRIGGERED.
I can't believe of all the big four the LNER used this ugly thing.
I’m afraid I had to stop watching this video, the music was very distracting, if not annoying.
“American locos are so ugly compared to British locos!”
A British loco:
Bruh, imagine if they tried to redo the experiment again in modern times would it replace steam engines and diesels?
CODAS is used in vessels as well, but nowadays its only used to heat the fuel and make fresh water.
Very interesting, never knew such a thing ever existed
Thats got to be Hornby's next for April 1st.
This looks like a character that would be part of one of the three JBS engines thomas meets.
You should look at Swiss electric powered steam locomotive
I've been fascinated by this loco for years... thanks for the video!
Somehow I think this would work nowadays, if it was well developed. Considering oil is more abundant and common fuel.
At this point, could have just used fuel oil instead.
This would be an interesting design to try today.
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