🎵Underground, overground, choking our crew, The engines of St. Clair, that's what we do! Pulling our trains along the river line, Sometimes occasionally leave cars behind 🎶
@@nielsleenknegt5839 That loco was built by the Great Eastern Railway, not the London Underground (not that London Transport was in existence at the time anyway; most of the underground lines were separate entities, although Charles Yerkes had formed Underground Electric Railways of London, which unified a few lines). It was built purely to show that a steam engine could accelerate at a similar rate to an electric train in order to block the construction of a rival scheme. I think ToT did a video on it a while ago.
I'm surprised the company didn't sell off the steam locomotives they built as banking engines once they switched to an electric system for the tunnel. If couplings were breaking that often due to sheer power, then they'd be good at pushing trains up steep hills
I can't say for sure but a couple of possible reasons are that the 0-10-0 wheel arrangement of the steam engine wouldn't go well around mountain curves in helper service. (helper locomotive is the what banking engines are called on this side of the pond.) Only a small number of ten-coupled engines were made in North America with 6 and 8-coupled predominating the end of the steam era and those that were made where restricted to flat areas of the country. Another possibility is the low capacity of tank engines for fuel and water. As many helper districts were many miles long, these locomotives would probably only make a few trips before needing to refuel and take on water. (Not as much of an issue for the short distance of the St. Clair tunnel.) Also, the separation of the engineer (driver) and the fireman made communication harder which was a big disadvantage in helper service. Lastly, as Anthracite was only mined in eastern PA in the US, railroads far from PA wouldn't be interested.
For a moment I thought it was a underwater railway (well it sort of is in a way I guess), the engine looks like a mix of a Tank Engine, a Camelback, and a Decapod
unless you've worked on a locomotive and actually pulled a coupler off an engine and seen how they are mounted i don't think you can fully appreciate how much raw strength is actually required to pull a coupler off an engine or a wagon (particularly auto knuckles). Quite impressive in a way they were able to do that
Never has the description 'iron horse' been so fitting... I'm immediately picturing these locomotives breaking couplings like a draught horse getting spooked & snapping their harness, leaving their carriage full of people rolling backwards down the hill!
FUN FACTS: • The original St. Clair River Tunnel was the first subaqueous rail tunnel built in North America • In the short, 30 year history of the new tunnel, only one train has ever derailed (CN M38331-27 on June 28, 2019) • Had any of the equipment owned by the St. Clair Tunnel Co. been preserved, I know for a fact that the city of Port Huron would never care about it (as a former resident of St. Clair County, this is the gods honest truth. The city has never given a shit about their railroad history and has always put the focus on their history as a maritime port)
@@themanformerlyknownascomme777 I know I’m almost 3 months late responding to this comment, but how does the skyline look now that the old Pere Marquette drawbridge is gone?
@@jerrysgardentractorsengine2243 no problem whatsoever! (god knows I'm even worse for that). Honestly, I hadn't noticed. I'm not down by the waterfront that often, frankly I didn't even know that's what it was until you just told me, I'd always assumed it was some piece of industrial dock equipment (I mean, with Sarnia's side have tons of that stuff with chemical valley being right there on the water front).
All the videos on this channel are very interesting; informative and very well done. So much in history we may not know about otherwise. This video about the tunnel is excellent!! This is one of my favorite channels.
I'm from the town on the Canadian side of the River! (Sarnia) we have a mural of featuring this engine downtown. Kinda sad you didn't mention the Point Edward spur, as it ties into this story, as during the time when they had to reopen the ferry for large cars (aka Autoracks), the Point Edward Spur was a full on three-track mainline that ran right through the heart of downtown. Nowadays it's just a one track line that goes to the grain elevators. pro-local tip: If you ever come here, and look to try the "fries under the bridge" then your actually looking for a restaurant called "Alberts" which is in a joint building with "suzy's ice creamporium" just up the road from the waterfront.
The Saint Clair River itself is 2,290 feet wide at the point of crossing, the tunnel is 6,025 feet long. You can kind of see why the tunnel had relatively steep grades as to make them shallower would require significantly greater length and it was already nearly 3 times as long as the river.
as well, this wasn't the first attempt a the tunnel either, but the previous one had stopped because they hit a gas pocket (local bonus bit of trivia: this spot is still a major area for natural gas which is now the town's main economy) so there was an extra reason for them to want to have the tunnel be as short as possible: the more length they dug the more chance they'd run into another natural gas pocket.
Kinda surprised that the tunnel locos weren't found work as switchers, sure 0-10-0 is a little big but they'd be able to bully about any rake of wagons in the biggest yards
Parallel example in the UK was the Mersey Railway that ran between Liverpool and Birkenhead but was so smoky that many people preferred the ferries. Electrification eventually solved the problem. And of course the early days of the London Underground (Metropolitan and District Railways).
The Camelback mid-boiler cab was common among Anthracite burning engines of the early 20th century. The fact that it allowed easy visibility in both directions was a bonus. This was due to the larger firebox required for the harder burning Anthracite (hard coal). They were eventually phased out due to numerous safety concerns,
Great video. I am familiar with these steam engines but have never seen the image you briefly bring into focus at the very beginning, with elaborate artwork on the water tank. Did that actually exist or was it simply an artist’s conception? It is wildly ornate for such a utilitarian brute of a locomotive.
Throwing in The Village People! I know AmtrakGuy365 also did a video about these engines a couple years ago but I do enjoy hearing about these engines. I do believe some books of mine do have a picture or two about these steam engines under the early massive power. Steam engines during the Gilded Age were something else and the St. Clair Tunnel Four have to be some of the most characteristic, breaking couplings on the daily and essentially being tunnel rats, looking slim and low with the boxy shape of a cab in the middle.
Westinghouse and General Electric were the two main suppliers of electrical gear for early US electric and diesel ("oil" or "gas") locomotives. [ The term "diesel" was avoided during/after WWI due to its German origin. ]
A bit more history: AGEIR was a consortium that built a lot of early diesel-electrics; that's ALCo (frames, running gear, bodies, etc.), General Electric (motors, switch gear, controls) and Ingersoll-Rand (diesel engines). Later GE went off and started producing complete locomotives (all parts manufactured in-house).
@@alexhajnal107 Also between AGEIR splitting up and GE making their own locomotives entirely, they were partnered with ALCO for most of that company's life in the diesel era, while Westinghouse partnered with Baldwin. By 1953 ALCO and GE had split up as GE began working on starting their own locomotive business and ALCO was diversifying outside of locomotives, but GE continued to supply electrical components for ALCO diesels for some time after, although GE quickly overtook ALCO as the number 2 locomotive manufacturer and has since dethroned EMD as the nukber 1.
Keep in mind, there have been electric steam locomotives with pantographs and heating elements installed. Though, it was in desperation of the Swiss people having all of their coal taken away by the Third Reich, to fuel their war efforts. We know that from needs, innovation comes. That does not make what the Third Reich did to be good, only that we struggled against Ourselves in order to be good again. This in turn is a very needy time. Needy as in, the need of innovation to fight a changing enemy, the need of war to fight against the conflict, and the need of peace to resolve conflict. Need is a basic function in our brains but contributes to a lot of what we have today.
You should look up the 2 abandoned trains in Maine US. They were logging trains i think that were deamed to expensive to move when they weren't needed and just left in the woods. Nereby i think is also a caboose on a small rock island at the edge of a lake.
Camelbacks were not fun to operate, as the cab was intensely constricted, and the Wooten firebox was so wide it required two firedoors to adequately fire the engine. The largest were four Erie articulated 0-8-8-0s, which required a relief fireman every eight miles.
I'm amazed the St. Clair Tunnel 0-10-0's were breaking knuckle couplings, shame the tunnel wasn't good long-term cause it was small. But the tunnel seemed suited for electric locomotives from the beginning it doesn't matter how well ventilated it was you were still underwater and underground.
I mean, the tunnel was in operation from 1891-1994, that's almost a full century of service (despite what the video makes it sound rapid) and belive me, despite the need for autoracks to use the point edward spur and the ferry, I can tell you as a local that 99.99% of the traffic on this section of the rail is tank cars with a side of even more tank cars which were perfectly capable of using the tunnel.
and here i was expecting phil swift start showing halfway with flextape slapping it on the engines while stating .... NOW IT EVEN WORKS UNDERWATER!!! 😅
Until nuclear, submarines used diesel to charge batteries ... only run on the surface (maybe at night...). So steam power to charge batteries, seal up all vents ... maybe condensing to recycle water. Firing interesting, maybe oil burners!
@@davida9359 And in the times when the diesel was weak and unreliable British tried to do big Steam Powered submarines - dreaded K Class, dreaded by their crews ofcrs :D
I'd rather ride behind an electric engine and not risk choking on coal OR DIESEL fumes. Obviously the idiots in management don't ride through their own tunnels behind a diesel locomotive. I have ridden on Amtrak through a much shorter tunnel at Back Bay Station in Boston before they finished electrifying the Northeast Corridor (and they were still using F40PH locomotives), and it was awful. And the air quality in Back Bay Station is still awful, because the MBTA (or local transit agency) refuses to electrify its Commuter Rail trains.
I cannot find any information on the hill climbing engine in the first 5 seconds of the video. Please let me know if anyone can link me to it. I cannot find it under a search for "hill" in this channel. Thank You!
🎵Underground, overground, choking our crew,
The engines of St. Clair, that's what we do!
Pulling our trains along the river line,
Sometimes occasionally leave cars behind 🎶
I love the videos and this song too :))
Theese 0-10-0 give me the same vibe as the 0-10-0 that the London underground built when the electric train was starting to come into vieuw
@@nielsleenknegt5839 That loco was built by the Great Eastern Railway, not the London Underground (not that London Transport was in existence at the time anyway; most of the underground lines were separate entities, although Charles Yerkes had formed Underground Electric Railways of London, which unified a few lines). It was built purely to show that a steam engine could accelerate at a similar rate to an electric train in order to block the construction of a rival scheme. I think ToT did a video on it a while ago.
@@dominicbarden4436 Ithink it had trouble with couplings as well.
someone's been playing pizza tower... choosing the toppings
Steam locomotives truly don't give a damn about what physics tell them
They will break them at any chance they get
Goats of the raiiillls
Until the gradient exposes some tubing inside the boiler...
They were built by us to become masters of physics
Well except for hills
I'm surprised the company didn't sell off the steam locomotives they built as banking engines once they switched to an electric system for the tunnel. If couplings were breaking that often due to sheer power, then they'd be good at pushing trains up steep hills
I can't say for sure but a couple of possible reasons are that the 0-10-0 wheel arrangement of the steam engine wouldn't go well around mountain curves in helper service. (helper locomotive is the what banking engines are called on this side of the pond.) Only a small number of ten-coupled engines were made in North America with 6 and 8-coupled predominating the end of the steam era and those that were made where restricted to flat areas of the country. Another possibility is the low capacity of tank engines for fuel and water. As many helper districts were many miles long, these locomotives would probably only make a few trips before needing to refuel and take on water. (Not as much of an issue for the short distance of the St. Clair tunnel.)
Also, the separation of the engineer (driver) and the fireman made communication harder which was a big disadvantage in helper service. Lastly, as Anthracite was only mined in eastern PA in the US, railroads far from PA wouldn't be interested.
Simple, they are out dated, and slow. Considering it, it would probably be more profitable to buy a 2-8-2 or a mallet.
For a moment I thought it was a underwater railway (well it sort of is in a way I guess), the engine looks like a mix of a Tank Engine, a Camelback, and a Decapod
*British decapod. In America a decapod is a 2-10-0 and not a 0-10-0
that's what the title of the video was meant to make you think
@@ErieRRfan what
unless you've worked on a locomotive and actually pulled a coupler off an engine and seen how they are mounted i don't think you can fully appreciate how much raw strength is actually required to pull a coupler off an engine or a wagon (particularly auto knuckles). Quite impressive in a way they were able to do that
4:58 I see what you did there.... 😂
YMCA!
I was about to say “don’t think we didn’t catch that”! 😂
Never has the description 'iron horse' been so fitting... I'm immediately picturing these locomotives breaking couplings like a draught horse getting spooked & snapping their harness, leaving their carriage full of people rolling backwards down the hill!
FUN FACTS:
• The original St. Clair River Tunnel was the first subaqueous rail tunnel built in North America
• In the short, 30 year history of the new tunnel, only one train has ever derailed (CN M38331-27 on June 28, 2019)
• Had any of the equipment owned by the St. Clair Tunnel Co. been preserved, I know for a fact that the city of Port Huron would never care about it (as a former resident of St. Clair County, this is the gods honest truth. The city has never given a shit about their railroad history and has always put the focus on their history as a maritime port)
Hello from the other side of the river! on the Canadian side, we have *some* care. As Sarnia is home to CN 6069 and we have a mural to the 0-10-0s
@@themanformerlyknownascomme777 I know I’m almost 3 months late responding to this comment, but how does the skyline look now that the old Pere Marquette drawbridge is gone?
@@jerrysgardentractorsengine2243 no problem whatsoever! (god knows I'm even worse for that). Honestly, I hadn't noticed. I'm not down by the waterfront that often, frankly I didn't even know that's what it was until you just told me, I'd always assumed it was some piece of industrial dock equipment (I mean, with Sarnia's side have tons of that stuff with chemical valley being right there on the water front).
Those steamers really are chunky lads
Indeed
If the lad is chunky, it'a gonna be a good video
@@STICKGUYMB true
All the videos on this channel are very interesting; informative and very well done. So much in history we may not know about otherwise. This video about the tunnel is excellent!! This is one of my favorite channels.
"That's a nice new knuckle coupler you have there.., it sure would be a shame if something were to happen to it."
A submarine on wheels shocking i’m getting Misty Island rescue vibes
Real lmao
There should be a replica of one of the camelback tank engines, the world deserves more camelbacks
and let's not forget cameltoes!
I'm from the town on the Canadian side of the River! (Sarnia) we have a mural of featuring this engine downtown. Kinda sad you didn't mention the Point Edward spur, as it ties into this story, as during the time when they had to reopen the ferry for large cars (aka Autoracks), the Point Edward Spur was a full on three-track mainline that ran right through the heart of downtown. Nowadays it's just a one track line that goes to the grain elevators.
pro-local tip: If you ever come here, and look to try the "fries under the bridge" then your actually looking for a restaurant called "Alberts" which is in a joint building with "suzy's ice creamporium" just up the road from the waterfront.
The Saint Clair River itself is 2,290 feet wide at the point of crossing, the tunnel is 6,025 feet long. You can kind of see why the tunnel had relatively steep grades as to make them shallower would require significantly greater length and it was already nearly 3 times as long as the river.
as well, this wasn't the first attempt a the tunnel either, but the previous one had stopped because they hit a gas pocket (local bonus bit of trivia: this spot is still a major area for natural gas which is now the town's main economy) so there was an extra reason for them to want to have the tunnel be as short as possible: the more length they dug the more chance they'd run into another natural gas pocket.
There is a problem with fumes so let's go electric. Now let's go diesel and put the fumes back again.
Because Boomers don't learn from justify.
Among the worst mistakes we ever made, as a species, was dieselizing electric lines.
its now worse than it was a 100 years ago
Kinda surprised that the tunnel locos weren't found work as switchers, sure 0-10-0 is a little big but they'd be able to bully about any rake of wagons in the biggest yards
i say it every week and i'll say it again, its a genuine pleasure to come home on a Friday to your videos. ❤
“*Cough cough WHEEEEEZ Cough cough*”-the crews that worked on the 0-10-0’s
🎵Under the sea, under the sea!🎵
Basically, a Submarine-Locomotive. Or a “U-Train”.
Wich is basically what german underground trains are called. The U-Bahn (Underground-Bahn)
YMCA!!!!! it’s fun to stay at the YMCA!!!
They having everything for young men to enjoy
Another fun fact about the midwestern railway: the last car ferry the SS Badger is still operational to this very day and it was built in 1953.
Not just that, it's the last ship with reciprocating steam engines on the Great Lakes.
literally the sonic air bubble ability
I mean…you’re not wrong
It's crazy the steam locomotives would still break the knuckle couplers
That's out of this world! I rarely hear about KNUCKLES breaking!
I drive by this tunnel on my way to work. Cool to see a video on a subject local to me.
Should have used the locomotives to push the trains. But going electric was correct and sensible.
as someone who lives in sarnia it's so nice to see this
Parallel example in the UK was the Mersey Railway that ran between Liverpool and Birkenhead but was so smoky that many people preferred the ferries. Electrification eventually solved the problem. And of course the early days of the London Underground (Metropolitan and District Railways).
The Camelback mid-boiler cab was common among Anthracite burning engines of the early 20th century. The fact that it allowed easy visibility in both directions was a bonus. This was due to the larger firebox required for the harder burning Anthracite (hard coal). They were eventually phased out due to numerous safety concerns,
On the Jersey Central they lasted until the end of steam.
Imagine electric trains being more expensive to run than diesel ones, what a crazy time.
Electricity was still new in that era. They were still discovering new things.
Canada! About time you cover some stories from over here!
"I'd rather drive behind a eletric engine and not risk choking on coal fumes, don't you?" Thomas and Friends outro plays.
Great video. I am familiar with these steam engines but have never seen the image you briefly bring into focus at the very beginning, with elaborate artwork on the water tank. Did that actually exist or was it simply an artist’s conception? It is wildly ornate for such a utilitarian brute of a locomotive.
Throwing in The Village People! I know AmtrakGuy365 also did a video about these engines a couple years ago but I do enjoy hearing about these engines. I do believe some books of mine do have a picture or two about these steam engines under the early massive power. Steam engines during the Gilded Age were something else and the St. Clair Tunnel Four have to be some of the most characteristic, breaking couplings on the daily and essentially being tunnel rats, looking slim and low with the boxy shape of a cab in the middle.
@@lukechristmas3951 The Steam Engine Is Amazing
Fascinating
Awesome info
At least they got the job done getting the people across the river safely
this engine it's similar to the "GER class 55 Decapod" great video
Hey I live about 30 minutes from there, the old car ferry docks are still on the river banks on the US and CA sides, the US one is behind the YMCA
For those intrested the tunnel is in Narnia Ontario. My boyfriend lives near it
Brojen couplers thats dang impressive
It would've honestly made more sense for the loco to push uphill from behind
That's cool Westinghouse made the electric train, didn't know that
Westinghouse and General Electric were the two main suppliers of electrical gear for early US electric and diesel ("oil" or "gas") locomotives. [ The term "diesel" was avoided during/after WWI due to its German origin. ]
They were one of the early names in electric locomotives, did a lot of collaboration with Baldwin and ALCO.
A bit more history: AGEIR was a consortium that built a lot of early diesel-electrics; that's ALCo (frames, running gear, bodies, etc.), General Electric (motors, switch gear, controls) and Ingersoll-Rand (diesel engines). Later GE went off and started producing complete locomotives (all parts manufactured in-house).
@@alexhajnal107 Also between AGEIR splitting up and GE making their own locomotives entirely, they were partnered with ALCO for most of that company's life in the diesel era, while Westinghouse partnered with Baldwin. By 1953 ALCO and GE had split up as GE began working on starting their own locomotive business and ALCO was diversifying outside of locomotives, but GE continued to supply electrical components for ALCO diesels for some time after, although GE quickly overtook ALCO as the number 2 locomotive manufacturer and has since dethroned EMD as the nukber 1.
It took strangely long to electrify. Niagara Falls had been built a decade earlier.
Keep in mind, there have been electric steam locomotives with pantographs and heating elements installed. Though, it was in desperation of the Swiss people having all of their coal taken away by the Third Reich, to fuel their war efforts. We know that from needs, innovation comes. That does not make what the Third Reich did to be good, only that we struggled against Ourselves in order to be good again. This in turn is a very needy time. Needy as in, the need of innovation to fight a changing enemy, the need of war to fight against the conflict, and the need of peace to resolve conflict. Need is a basic function in our brains but contributes to a lot of what we have today.
Now i understand why New York doesn't allow Steam Engines enter Into the City Limits
Those steam engines would make great banking locomotives!
You should look up the 2 abandoned trains in Maine US. They were logging trains i think that were deamed to expensive to move when they weren't needed and just left in the woods. Nereby i think is also a caboose on a small rock island at the edge of a lake.
Camelbacks were not fun to operate, as the cab was intensely constricted, and the Wooten firebox was so wide it required two firedoors to adequately fire the engine.
The largest were four Erie articulated 0-8-8-0s, which required a relief fireman every eight miles.
It's insane to me that the steel-on-steel friction of the locomotives wheels provided enough tractive effort to shear steel coupler pins...
That YMCA joke got me!!! 🤣
I'm amazed the St. Clair Tunnel 0-10-0's were breaking knuckle couplings, shame the tunnel wasn't good long-term cause it was small. But the tunnel seemed suited for electric locomotives from the beginning it doesn't matter how well ventilated it was you were still underwater and underground.
I mean, the tunnel was in operation from 1891-1994, that's almost a full century of service (despite what the video makes it sound rapid) and belive me, despite the need for autoracks to use the point edward spur and the ferry, I can tell you as a local that 99.99% of the traffic on this section of the rail is tank cars with a side of even more tank cars which were perfectly capable of using the tunnel.
He's back
Those steam engines look dope
Those passengers frequently screamed help I’m choking
I guess the Misty Island Tunnel needs more credit.
🤢🤢🤢
There's videos of this running after their tender engine conversion. These are also camelbacks
Lake St. Clair is in the shape of a heart flipped on it's side
Coal Smoke can choke ME out ANY day
Thomas needs to meet this locomotive.
If they weren’t scrapped that is.
Trains working underwear that's very strange but good job as always my friend 2:25
Locomotives working underwater now I’ve seen it all
*in an underwater tunnel
These, Big Bertha, and the LNER U1: brothers in steep banks
You have unearthed photos I'd not seen before and thank you for that.
I wonder why they didn’t push trains through the tunnel to avoid broken couplers?
Can’t help but wonder if someone’s made a model of these for O gauge.
and here i was expecting phil swift start showing halfway with flextape slapping it on the engines while stating .... NOW IT EVEN WORKS UNDERWATER!!! 😅
First electrifying, then switching to diesel. Peak America.
1.26 cogs in between the rails? winches?
Well... the british had a steam powered submarines sooo, challenge accepted? :D
What?
@@ErieRRfan it's unfortunately true. i think it's the K Class. There's a couple good documentaries about them on yt
Until nuclear, submarines used diesel to charge batteries ... only run on the surface (maybe at night...). So steam power to charge batteries, seal up all vents ... maybe condensing to recycle water. Firing interesting, maybe oil burners!
@@davida9359 And in the times when the diesel was weak and unreliable British tried to do big Steam Powered submarines - dreaded K Class, dreaded by their crews ofcrs :D
I mean, I wouldn’t mind going underground with a steam engine if I was given a suit with its own air supply
I'd rather ride behind an electric engine and not risk choking on coal OR DIESEL fumes. Obviously the idiots in management don't ride through their own tunnels behind a diesel locomotive. I have ridden on Amtrak through a much shorter tunnel at Back Bay Station in Boston before they finished electrifying the Northeast Corridor (and they were still using F40PH locomotives), and it was awful. And the air quality in Back Bay Station is still awful, because the MBTA (or local transit agency) refuses to electrify its Commuter Rail trains.
ToT making a video about a railway in my state wasn’t on my 2024 bingo card
Phill Swify ,It even works underwater
Desert locos when? 😁😁
I really want a model of this engine
“It even works underwater”
At least they could swim *underwater*
Hold on a second what the hell was that second locomotive you showed in the intro?
Shame they could have saved one or two steamers even if they were put in a museum
I cannot find any information on the hill climbing engine in the first 5 seconds of the video. Please let me know if anyone can link me to it. I cannot find it under a search for "hill" in this channel. Thank You!
New Thomas Plot?
I think I would call these trains
The Herculean scuba engines?
Seen Underground Erine?
Why didn't they build "condenser" engines where the fumes from the funnel get turned into water again, just like in the London tube?
The fumes were from the coal, not the steam.
They weren't terribly successful even in London - better than nothing but still produced fumes and electrification was definitely a boon.
0:01
If the couplings kept breaking why didn’t they just push the train rather than pulling it
American tank engines, not very common. USA is a big country so tender engines were more common
Tanks were quite common in cities before the streetcar came along.
Thats pizza tower music. Good taste
Big Emma’s funny American cousin.
That’s a heavy/strong tank engine
If links broke so bad why not just…push the cars through?
Climb up a hill both ways my parent schools must have been somehere near there
Now do Grand Funk Railroad
If only they hadnt made them so strong lol
That’s…just a camel back
These locos ran 'under water' not 'underwater'.
Subterranean Ruben Wells.