Q & A with Ian eh! The Napier Sabre Engine
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- In this Questions and Answers video, I give you the rundown on the Napier Sabre engine that you often see in the background of other videos. While not a full episode, it is intended to cover some of the common questions I get regarding the powerplant we will use for the restoration / rebuild of Typhoon JP843. More to come in a future full length episode!
typhoonlegacy....
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Hawker Typhoon JP843 is a British designed aircraft of the Second World War, originally intended as a fighter / interceptor, but ultimately ending up excelling as a ground attack aircraft. The Typhoon was the Royal Air Force's ( RAF ) first 400mph fighter, and although it had troubled development in its early years (partially due to the massive Napier Sabre sleeve valve engine that had been pushed into service), it came to be one of the premier ground attack aircraft of the war, scourge of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe alike; excelling through D-Day, the Normandy campaign, and the Allied advance through Europe and VE Day.
While there were many nationalities of pilots and crew involved in Typhoon operations, the primary operators of the Hawker Typhoon were:
Royal Air Force ( RAF )
Royal Canadian Air Force ( RCAF )
Royal New Zealand Air Force ( RNZAF )
Royal Australian Air Force ( RAAF )
Hawker Typhoon JP843 served with 197 Squadron RAF, 198 Squadron RAF, and 609 Squadron RAF between September of 1943 and July of 1944. She was lost, along with her pilot, Peter March Price, RNZAF on the 27th of July 1944 in the battlefields of France.
The development of the Typhoon led to the Hawker Tempest V, which outperformed the Typhoon. Due to this, and the end of World War II, the Hawker Typhoon was quickly scrapped and replaced, with only one example of over 3300 surviving. This example, Hawker Typhoon MN235, only survived by chance after being sent to the United States Air Force ( USAF ) for evaluation during the war. With approximately 9 hours of flight time, the USAF crated the Typhoon and stored the aircraft with many others. Eventually becoming an asset of the Smithsonian, the Typhoon was traded back to the UK's RAF Museum Hendon in 1968 for a Hawker Hurricane.
With no airworthy Hawker Typhoons or Hawker Tempest V's airworthy, we are committed to returning JP843 to the skies and preserving the legacy of all who took part in the development and operation of the amazing aircraft.
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~Ian
I remember they had one of these in the Cambridge University engineering labs, where I was an undergrad way back in the seventies. It was partially cut away so you could see the internal details. It was fascinating and a huge beast. I don't know if they still have it. I would love to hear one run.
Fascinating. One of the coolest things about the appearance of the Typhoon is that very short nose that lets you know there’s a massive brute of an engine hiding within. Great stuff, and I look forward to all future episodes.
Nearly everything we need to know about the Sabre. Looking forward to the in depth video. Great Work.
The way they harness two cranks to one gear into the hub reduction gears is fantastic. The gear sits on a slight helix I believe with diaphragm springs for and aft this allows the torsional to be absorbed by the springs with a slight fore and aft movement of the gear. Torsional’s damped and into the hub reduction unit. I believe that is correct, I read it in aero engine book somewhere. They also use long drive shaft that can remove torsional’s as well twisting over their length. I have seen the same principal used to remove torsional’s in trucks for fuel pump drive shafts. Exciting one ton of pure muscle. Jets supplanted it but they had a lot more HP to come and had it on test.
It was quite the system used, the engineering was amazing! ~Ian
I am so impressed with your work and that your plans of restoration is to keep original as much as humanly possible. I always believe that it should take as long as it takes to do it right and no short cuts. Keep up the great work!!!
Thank you! ~Ian
Lee Enfield
Somehow I'm not surprised that the timeframe for a Tiffy is about the same as the timeframe for fusion power. 'Twenty years', regardless of when the question is posed.
I don't care how long it takes, you're a gentleman and a scholar for taking it on in the first place.
Thanks Ian. What a project, I look forward to the next twenty years.
Great intro to the engine and appetite well whetted for the forthcoming episode(s). Thanks again Ian!
I very eagerly await the day to hear a Sabre engine run up.
Will be fantastic to see & hear this complete. My father worked on these engines during the war
This engine is a Marvel to me. The way they fed the combustion chamber is just amazing.
The saber is one of the coolest engines ever built
I'd say "the hottest" considering the chances of it bursting into open fire when starting. The only engine close enough might be the earlier DB 605 which caught on fire if the pilot went full throttle.
Almost a jet engine.
@@MDzmitry
I saw a documentary about typoon pilots. One said the best thing was to open her up and blow the flames out. Balls.
Probably the ultimate boxer engine. As a child I imagined installing one in a VW bus, I know insane and totaly irrelevant. Great work, the world needs more people like you.
You don't happen to have one kicking around do you John? :) ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Would be nice but no. I've been a life lov aviation enthusiast but have never been able to afford the real thing. Adding up all the money I've spent on race cars I probably could have bought a warbird though, over the span of 40 years.
It’s not a boxer the opposing cylinders don’t balance each other. No rational person will fly an airplane powered by this engine unless the engineering is done and why?
😊
Brings back memories of my wife's grandfather who worked on these while serving in the RAF.
That was very difficult early one, the Sabre was unlike other engines of the day and many mistakes were made. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Ian, I have some pictures of him working on a Typhoon. Just amazing!
@@HuckThis1971 Those would be something to see, there aren't too many pictures of the guys on the ground working. Would you be able to share them? ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd For sure Ian. Would love too !
@@HuckThis1971 Great! Please send any images and info (names dates units etc), to info(at)typhoonlegacy.com
Thanks lan. I was quite happy letting you inform us on anything Typhoon related. I just appreciate the time you take responding to everyone when you probably have better things to do . Thankyou .
Thanks John, I do my best! Thank you for following along with us. ~Ian
As a recent subscriber, I have been looking at the Griffon in the background and thinking you must be going to use that in the new airplane. I have been a long time Sabre fan and so was disappointed. I am so glad to hear that the long term plan is to install a Napier Sabre. I will be contributing to the project now. I am a warbirds of America Member and have owned T-28A, T6, and T34 aircraft. I own a heavy machine shop and might be able to help on large CNC machining requirements.
Hi Ralph, thank you very much for connecting with me; the engine in the background is actually our Rolls Royce Merlin Mk III that we are putting together for a much more sinister Typhoon related plan! Would you be willing to get in touch with me through e-mail? info(at)typhoonlegacy.com I will reply from my e-mail address, so please check your spam. ~Ian
I had not seen this one although I do try to follow Ian with this very worthy and necessary restoration project.
The Typhoon and Tempest stories are well described by Roland Beaumont’s ‘Tempests over Europe”. To say they made a quantum difference
would be a colossal understatement. Of all ww2 allied warbirds which we know and respect : Mustang p51 111 on , Hurricane , Spitfire, P47 . The sheer speed
and stability at medium altitude were unattanainable by those aircraft. Glamour they may have lacked but in 44-5 were unmatched in punch and speed, when the Sabre
Was finally sorted in late ‘43, an (object lesson in engineering Co operation by manufacturers who are otherwise commercial rivals). It is scandalous that
They were scrapped with far more efficiency than their inception acceptance and development.
Excellent! Even flying with a Griffon is still a flying Typhoon.
Hopefully it will not come to that, but it would be better to have it flying than sitting on the ground while we put together a Sabre. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Just wondering if it wouldn´t soak up too much time trying to engineer a Griffon to fit, that would be better spent on the Napier. Dilemmas, dilemmas! :-)
@@jamesdeath3477 No effort will be put into that plan unless we are very close on the airframe, but many years from a Sabre being operational. ~Ian
@@jamesdeath3477 Yes, that is my thought also, you are not just going to bolt a Griffon onto the front, and fly it! Anyone who has ever swapped a car engine out would know the problems that entails (on a much smaller scale). I hope they can find a flight worthy Sabre, as having to machine one from scratch would be a Herculean effort, even with modern tech.
@@ChargerMiles007 I think they would need to build quite a few, cast the cases etc to provide spares.
Hi Ian, it is very interesting to see the painted on factory build number on your Sabre engine, when I rebuilt my Napier Lion engine I also found a painted on build number from 1924. Keep up the good work. Andy
Hi Andy, it would be amazing if we could find records to trace the number, unfortunately its been a dead-end so far. ~Ian
Ian, I was told most of the Napier records were lost when they were taken over by English Electric ? Had your Sabre parts used to belong to Roger ? Andy
Very cool quick look at a Sabre! Not as bulky (for the basic crankcase/cylinder block combination) as I thought...of course the accessories aren't on there at the moment. Very neat piece of history!
It's heavy, but makes very good use of space. I have a picture f this beside our Merlin, and they're very close in overall dimensions. Power comparison is a whole other story! ~Ian
Ian,
Thanks appreciate your problem but cannot say fitting a Griffon is the best answer but understand in the context of satisfying the authorities.
I have seen a photo of a Tempest with a Griffon with rads in the wings a bit like its successor the Fury. The sleeve valvers I think have been given
A rather mythological negative status (especially your side of the Atlantic and a bit south) . Wether myth becomes prejudice when you apply for your
Certs remains to be seen , I cannot but admire your tenacity with this awesome aircraft which despite its faults was a game changer, seeing it flying
With a sabre would be incredible.
With a bit of luck, the Griffon won't even enter into the equation; the Sabre remains the project intent. I have to agree with you regarding the status of sleeve valve engines, the Bristol Freighter proved very successful under power from the Hercules. ~Ian
Ian ,
Many thanks for the personal reply much appreciated. I expect you are aware of Nick Graces Mk II Tempest (centaurus) and the Tempests V (sabre), and II currently under restoration by Kermit Weeks.
I think the `Beaufighter at Duxford has been hanging around for ages waiting for the right type of Hercules. I was under the impression Bristols made them into a quite self contained 'power egg'
for a variety of applications but maybe not that particular one ? @@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd
@@johncrispin2118 Certainly! It is my understanding that Kermit has shelved the Tempest projects for now unfortunately. I do love the Beaufighter, but cannot claim knowledge of the specific engine marks used, but do understand there to be quite a difference. There is a Beaufighter project in Ottawa as well, but I'm not sure if they have engines for it yet; must be short supply! ~Ian
There is a rapier engine at Southampton Air Museum, and Ron Murphy of Cirencester had the manuals for this engine many years ago.
That is a very rare engine! ~Ian
Amazing piece of British engineering, thanks for the walk around tour.
Great idea with the Griffon ! Alisons in Buchons so why not ! brilliant update Ian, Thank you
The Allison in the Erikson Buchon is working well? Looks right. Lighter airframe. But hp/lbs ratios for Typhoon? What were Miss Ashley figures?
Or Griffon Spitfires?
@@stewartgrant9832 Griffon Spits are a whole different beast to the Merlin engined ones
@@colvaughan9596 That's what I'm saying. Compare the weights to the Typhoon then look at the available power.
No point in my mind, if you’re going to build a Typhoon, you got to stick a Sabre in it, it’s half the legend.
I think that someone remarked that whilst most aircraft engine manufactures avoided complexity ( for reliability ) , however in contrast Napier seem embraced complexity with unbounded enthusiasm. They even managed to make a two stroke incredibly complicated.
Innovation doesn't follow the same path as everyone else! ~Ian
Started watching thinking yeah might be something interesting to watch and boy was I right! Even got a 1/24 Airfix kit to follow along to, Just hope I get it built sooner than Ian's 20 years but hey I am getting on so it might be a slow build. TFS, GB :)
Very excited hearing about a running sabre engine
Another great video, looking forward to the next already! Two years? You'll have to get your finger out, I don't think I've got two years left!, good luck, as always.
At 3;15 the 228 is visible but there are other numbers visible as well. I can see what appears to be a 7 or possibly a 1 with a small 2 at its base left of the 228 and also another 2 at the right of the 228. The script or brushwork is totally different and it appears to be underneath the 228.
Don't forget to tell your test pilot, when the big Napier is ready. Hawkers never really solved the engine exhaust ingress into the cockpit. The oxygen system has to be fully functional and he has to be on it from startup. I can see the engine being rebuilt and ready, but the starting issues are huge. Many books detail the difficulty in getting one running, including blowing the safety disc in the Coffman system. Coffman starter? Can it be done?
We are looking at alternate starting systems, more on that in future episodes. ~Ian
There was a sabre engine in the battle of Normandy museum when I visited in 2004.
There are a few in the area, sadly several in storage as well. ~Ian
A Big Engine , yes . Not that big when you consider that they actually got 3,500 hp out of the damn things . Great Video .
Very true, thank you John! ~Ian
Another gem in the minutae of aircraft. I'm looking forward to a working Napier as well being a gearhead.
Thank you John, we're doing everything we can to get this done, such an awesome piece of kit! ~Ian
Having just seen this engine in person a couple of days ago, it was interesting re-visit this video......
Great Video! I have always been fascinated with the sabre Engine ever since my grandfather told me about them many years ago. He was a roving Engineering Designer who was seconded to many firms during the War , From Rotol and Rolls Royce and even to Barnes Wallis's team at Brooklands directly under Barnes and Professor Lilley who I had the pleasure of meeting before he died. I remember my Grand father telling me of when he witnessed a Sabre Engine being Tested to Destruction on a Dyno ( i think he called it a wire Dyno, but my memory might be failing me there). There was a story doing the rounds about 25 years ago that there were 2 complete Sabre V engines in the Middle East that had purportedly been fitted to an offshore power boat, I tried to do some digging but could find no corroboration.
Testing such an engine to destruction would be amazing to be involved with. I've heard stories of Rolls Royce doing the same in their development of the Merlin. Please do let me know if you find those Sabre's! ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd I am reading that Napier did a study with the Royal Navy in 1942 for the possibility of a marine Sabre engine. A prototype was built and the project was cancelled. Four marine Sabres into one boat -- that's a lot of noise, a ton of fuel and a lot of troublesome engine starts. Napier had better success with a marine Lion engine and with their marine Deltic engines..
@@FiveCentsPlease That would have been an interesting time in the development of the Sabre to be considering new variants. May of the early teething problems were still being worked on; I suppose they really needed to push every option forwards at that time. ~Ian
What a beast of an engine, I cant believe the engineering of the time. EG; I would love to hear and see a Rolls Royce Cercy run!
can't wait for more details, always intrigued with this engine (and the griffon)
Ian a good talk on the Saber which interests me greatly.
In the 1960's I worked for NAPIERS in the Liverpool works where the Saber was made in the 1940's.
There were some colleagues who had worked there during the Saber days who remembered well all the problems.
The Napier company was taken over by English Electric Group in the early days of Saber production to get production going at a pace.
The design engineers were more interested in extracting more power from the engine than volume production
Towards the end of production the Development engineers produced the final version of the Saber with increased boost, water injection etc.
This was tested and produced over 5,000 BHP a record at the time but was overtaken by the Jet engine.
I look forward to a re built Saber working again in a Typhoon .
Keep up the good work.
The engine sure has an amazing history, it's always interesting to think what could be done with the design using modern materials, fluids, coatings etc. Thank you very much for following along with us! ~Ian
Great vid, I have never seen the insides of a Sabre, other than the one at the Ottawa Aviation Museum, which is a cut away version. It is too bad you couldn't just make the missing pieces, and weld them back in, and re-machine it. But that is just fantasy on a casting this complex (plus you would have to steal their Sabre, as there is no way they are going to part with it!). Perhaps scanning a whole engine, and 3 D metal printing a bunch is the way to go. At least that way you know there are no cracked engine block surprises! Machining up the cranks and gears etc. would be a challenge, but the sleeves would be a real challenge. You may have to employ a psychic to get lost info from Roy Feddon on the other side, to learn all of the ins and outs of how Bristol made the sleeves that worked properly! :) Perhaps Rolls Royce could search through their records on the Eagle -22, though it was prone to come to a clanking halt in mid-air, so probably not much of a help. We NEED Dr. Who's TARDIS so we can go back in time, and mount a Napier Sabre rescue program!
OK, so I got off track there a bit, I blame Covid winter boredom. I will be fighting hard to get my 24 cylinder engine going this summer to help keep the running Napier Sabre spirits high. Take care. Miles
There are certainly many options available using new technology to bring Sabre engines back. In some cases, we're just waiting for specific machines to get big enough... and they're close! ~Ian
Can't wait to hear it running 🙌
Amazingly compact for its power. We forget this is far from all there is to this engine. Cooling, supercharging, fuel tanks and weight, oil tank and pumps, combine to fly. And it's 80 years old. Mind you the B52 is 70.
I have seen a picture of a griffon engined Hawker Fury. Mist have been a test a.c. do shows that the Fury (Typhoo lineage) could fly with one
The Fury had a Bristol Centaurus engine, which as a multi-row air cooled radial with sleeve valves. FWIW it was Bristols who developed the technology to make good sleeve valves, and the Air Ministry forced Bristol to give the tech to Napier, so the Sabre engine would come good.
If anyone appreciates this aircraft engine story you will ! I was up in Kenai Alaska . I was in fairly remote area. I came upon a field . In the field standing up on end were 6 or 7 R4360 engines ? The ones used on the Hughes Blue Goose. They were wild just sitting there. Totally blew me away . I tried to buy them , even though I don’t know why ? I think the guy wanted 12 grand or 25 grand for all. I remember he said each engine had a 1,000$ in sterling silver ball bearings ? Engine trivia . Ha on the motors the heads cylinders twisted around the whole motor , spirally . Was crazy to see. There 17 or 18 or 23 ? Cylinder. It was an amazing find . Very cool videos 👍🏼
Massive engines, generating HP using as many cubes as you can fit in there! I wonder what happened to them? ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd I was in absolute awe of them , despite not knowing what they were exactly.
They were standing up , all complete as can be . I’ve seen ubtube videos of them run on stands . Omg.
I had taken pictures and researched them right after seeing them . That’s how I made blue goose link. They didn’t seem to worth much extreme profit ?
I remember a lot of stuff. It was down “ Funny River Road” Soldotna Alaska . 18-20 miles down road ( it’s a Long dead end ! 27 miles)
There was a Fly in house development, bare bones big gravel runway . One or two hangers and one or two homes/ cabins . It was just getting started . That’s where they were . 👍🏼 They were so cool and there were at least six !
In reference to the Napier Sabre, Kermit Weeks has two of them, one for a Tempest and one from an airliner (he thinks) in his video in a visit to Vintage V-12s, titled "Vintage V-12's - Engine Shop Visit - Part 2 of 3" at 6:52. I thought it was in Vintage V-12's stock, but Kermit has it. I mentioned it in an email I sent you last week, I went out and found it. Just search on youtube.
You should look at the team that "rebuilt" the BRM V16 this engine was now built using modern materials, lambda control and now super reliable pushing the same power that was originally believed possible..
Will do! ~Ian
As far as deadlines go I always quote Wimpy " I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" . always ready on Tuesday but what Tuesday is never given.
I recall back in the late 70's or early eighties an ad appeared in a magazine which I think may have been a street rod publication.
The ad was offering brand new Griffon engines still in their crates from a military Shackleton inventory for a few thousand dollars a piece.
Of course a few thousand dollars was a lot of money at the time and I had invested about the same amount in my first car which was a nearly new TC Cortina therefore to my everlasting regret I couldn't afford the asking price.
I remember visiting a scrapyard in Essex, England in the sixties. There was a huge heap of WW2 aircraft that had been cleared from RAF bases as they were closed down. There were packing cases containing unused spare new engines of all types going for scrap. If I knew then what I know now!
If the Saber uses the same plug as the Merlin, try Roush. We were using the very scarce ‘Lodge’ plugs on Betty Jane @ $100ea. Jack came up with his own ignition system that uses ‘his’ plugs. I bet Paul D would love to work with you.
That was only a reference to the overall plug length. Plug temp etc. still need to be checked, so far no access to anything similar to the Wartime Sabre plugs. ~Ian
Impressive engineering! Cheers!
Cheers Ian, good walk around.
They have had a Napier Sabre engine on display at the British Museum of Science and Technology since the mid 1980s. I saw it on the upper floor, back then, and the last time I was in the UK, 2014, it was on a display rack with an assortment of other engines. I am almost certain there is a Typhoon at the RAF Museum in Henley. Maybe either of these organizations would be willing to share information with you. I should have pictures, I will have to look.
That one is a nice Sabre IIA cutaway engine; while disappointing that these engines were cut, it is the only reason they were kept as well! ~Ian
I saw one in a Museum in Nelson (NZ) the other day. Unfortunately with multiple cut-outs. But maybe some of it could be used. I took a photo of it which I could email you. Mickael Rabilloud is now making new DB601s/DB605s for Bf109s!
That would be great, please sent to info(at)typhoonlegacy.com Would love to make a dozen or so new-built Sabres! ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Done. ✔
@Kiwihame do you by any chance have a link to Mickael Rabilloud’s efforts at making new DB601s/DB605s?
My Uncle Derek Colman-Smith worked for Napiers on the development of the Sabre and previously the Lion.
It would be so nice to be able to go back and talk to the people who were involved. ~Ian
good job Ian ... eh cheers from Alberta
When you guys have finished the air frame, will you paint on the radiator housing "If this engine catches fire, don't stand there waving your arms, try putting the bloody thing out!"? As per a model kit I built many, many years ago (Monogram by the way).
Likely a good idea!
J/K, we have a plan! ~Ian
10:10 That's exactly what Leo with Sampson Boat Company says on the restoration of Tally Ho... except he uses two years.
Hay pete what you doing ?
Parts of the factory which made the early sabres in Acton, London, are still there, definitely one of the design buildings is in existence. There was, about 10 years ago the last time I was there, a self storage site on the old factory.
Another great video i know very little about the typhoon but since finding your channel you make it very interesting
The sabra looks an amazing piece of engineering, would the griffon be easier for parts of you went down that route
Cheers Ian once again enjoyed the video
The Griffon would be easier than a Sabre, but hopefully it will not come to that. ~Ian
My father worked for Napier during the 2nd world war. He was a jig and toolmaker.
Wow, cutting edge work, did he discuss it at all with you? ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Hi, My father didn't talk us kids a lot about it, the only one thing i can remember is father saying that as he was cycling to work crossing over the railway bridge he saw a German plane flying low coming down the railway line dropping bombs. He said he wished he had a gun at that point.
A few years after the war my worked for Fairey Aviation, i cannot remember exactly where, somewhere in west London, around the Hayes area i believe.
This is exactely what i was tinking. The only way to have this airplane flying is by installing a wrong engine on it. Unless you find in England a museum who will donate you a complete napier saber from theirs static typhoon or tempest display. If i was a museum curator,i would certainly give you a complete motor. Anyway,the engine are all not visible on all the airplanes that i saw some years ago. Some of them may not have an engine at all. I would be curious to know how mutch napier saber parts the english museums have in their possession. Maybe some complete sabers engine....stored just in case. In cas of what ???? Whent the various aircraft museum around the world bought and rebuild typhoon and tempest back in the fifty's they certainly bring back engines and engine parts with them. Many of theses tempests were flying in India after the war,they certainly have some parts lying around and no one now what is it....Buildind an airplane from scratch is easy realisable. But this engine would be unfortunely someting else. The only hope would be from British museums. Nice job Ian.
Stay tuned my friend, a Sabre can be realized! ~Ian
I have a question I don't remember anybody asking, what advantage does a rotating sleeve valve over the traditional valve tappet and rocking arm roller has?
Reduced friction and increased compression. One of the issues with the sleeve valve system is sealing and oil consumption. ~Ian
sleeve valve engines are seriously baroque............how they could produce them and make them reliable is extraordinary
No wonder the all-up weight of the Typhoon was close to 7 tons. I imagine when thatthing started going downhill the pilot would have his work cut-out hauling it nack to straight and level?
That is one big heavy engine. You can see why they used magnesium where they could to try to get the wieght down.
For sure, although the power output helped offset the weight too! ~Ian
I’m pretty sure I saw one of these on the 3rd floor of the science museum in London.
They do have one there as well. ~Ian
If you guys are serious I would respectfully suggest you get a single cylinder prototype same bore & stroke to actually rum smoothly.
There is a big difference in running a single cylinder engine and a 24 cylinder engine. There will be massive amounts of ground testing on any potential runner.~Ian
An impressive engine. Could it be argued that it is the most powerful piston engine that actually went into production and saw combat?
The P&W R2800 was putting out similar power to the Sabres. But ultimately the Sabre appears to have gone further on test beds.
I've been given to understand that the claimed output of the Sabre was well down on it's actual output and vastly down on what it was capable of. I've come across figures of 2500hp and even in excess of 3000hp on a specially built record attempt airframe that suffered structural failure on landing. So it might actually be the most powerful.
@@vipertwenty249 Look at the R2800 figures. I was surprised. And if you want confirmation look at at the unlimited race Czeck Mate. It uses a 2800 and at the speeds it's going it's got to be close to 3000hp which is not far off the stock spec.
Wartime operations saw Sabre use up to approximately 2500hp, power to weight was very good, but I understand there to be several other engines capable of this output by the end of the war. It was a game changer early on, with nothing else matching it. By the end of the war, power levels were only on the rise, but jet engines rendered the Sabre old tech. ~Ian
The R-3350 and the Bristol Centaurus both saw combat........
I wonder with corrosion on certain cylinders gives a clue to where the engine was in the firing sequence when it crashed?
You probably could get away with a Griffon - knowing Hawkers (like many other manufacturers) possibly had to come up with alternatives - if they had a shortage of engines, though luckily the Typhoon didn't need it.
I know two of the Tempest prototypes (the Mk.III & IV) were equipped with Griffon's.
The Corrosion was inevitable . OP said what really probably happened .
Engine was LARGELY made from Magnesium . EXTREMELY reactive . Burns in Air once lit .
Great video again Ian, thanks for putting the vid together. You're probably already aware that a prototype Tempest flew with a Griffon, I wonder if there are any surviving drawings or other data that might be useful for a Griffon conversion for your Typhoon?
I think the Griffon was actually flown in a Fury prototype LA610 (Griffon 85). The same aircraft was also fitted with a Sabre VII, and would be the ultimate piston engine fighter (IMHO). I'm always looking for a Sea Fury or Fury owner who wants to do this conversion! ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Hi Ian, thanks for your reply. I think we are both talking about the same airframe from different angles, as I understand it LA610 started life as the Tempest Mk. III prototype and was the forerunner of the Seafury. And yes, I'd love to see a Griffon on a Seafury, especially with a contraprop!
The design that became the Hawker Typhoon was to meet Specification F18/37 and 2 versions were built initially. The Tornado with the Rolls Royce Vulture engine and the Typhoon with the Sabre. The Tornado went nowhere because the Vulture was in a lot of trouble and at that time Rolls Royce needed to concentrate on the Merlin, and so the Typhoon was chosen to go into production. The Tempest was an improved development with a thinner wing, and either the Sabre [Tempest V] or Bristol Centaurus [Tempest II] The Fury was a further development, initially known as the 'Tempest Light Fighter' and was fitted with the Centaurus engine. The second prototype Fury was fitted with a Rolls Royce Griffon and flew in November 1944. Later this aircraft, LA610, was fitted with a Sabre VII with which it reached a speed of 485 mph. The Sea Fury was a version of the Fury for the Royal Navy and I think can be considered the ultimate development of this line of aircraft, although I believe that the start point for what became the Seahawk was a jet powered version of the Tempest/Fury line.
The Sabre's an interesting example of engineering complexity iand gnoring manufacturability, (an attribute it shared with the Centaurus). Sleeve valves produce beautifully smooth car engines, but they're a production headache, especially the sleeves. There isn't a directly comparable US equivalent of the Sabre, but it's instructive to compare the Centaurus with the P&W 2800. Power output varies according to model, but they're certainly in the same class, and the P&W is roughly 350lbs lighter. the inside of the Bristol is exquisite, like a huge watch, but that doesn't kill Huns.
A few days ago, a video surfce from a group in BC restoring a Tempest. Are you aware of them? I would think you might have common problems, insights, and interests, that could usefully be shared.
Indeed, KF Aero is putting together a Hawker Tempest II not too far from us, a good group that we work with to a common goal! ~Ian
Sir Roy Feddons autobiography is a fascinating book and goes into the rationale for the sleeve valve. Two advantages mentioned were superior volumetric efficiency and the ability to take high boost without detonation, this compared.to a poppet valve engine. The sleeves were.quite tricky to make, I think they were cast in a spinning mold, nitride and ground on Sunnen hones. The blanks for the Sabre.sleeves.were supplied by Bristol since by pure chance the Taurus engine sleeve blank ( smaller than the Centaurus and Hercules) was of suitable size. Bristol would not release the manufacturing IP to Napier even when the wartime government tried to force their hand . Supplying the Taurus blanks seemed like a win win i suppose.
@@number1genoa Not sure how well the theory worked out; the Centaurus made roughly the same power, (depending on fuels, settinges, &c.) as the P&W 2800, which was about 350 lbs. lighter, and probably a hell of a lot easier to make.
@@number1genoa The sleeves will again be a challenge. I will look for this book, thank you for the reference! ~Ian
@@parrotraiser6541 During the mid to late thirties most aircraft designers were demanding ever more power. This was a time of much experimentation and development for aero engine designers, there were some successes and lots of failures. High octane fuels were not freely available in Europe and the UK.This limited the use of high boost pressures from super charging. While hot exhaust valves were problematic source of ignition later solved by sodium filled stems and probably other improvements. The sleeve.valve approach did not have this drawback which seemed like a promising avenue in the pre war period. Its all in the autobiography but I think the specific fuel consumption of the sleeve. Valve is better ( fuel consumption relative to displacement.)
24 cylinders, 2 crankshafts, 24 sleeve valves actuated by 2 driveshafts with internal supercharger shafts running through them, siamesed exhaust ports, and 3000-plus horsepower.
At least they kept it simple.
It really is a thing of beauty! ~Ian
They were saving the real complicated stuff for the Nomad....
Do you know how many of these engines survived the war and current availability?
in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s unlimited hydroplanes in America and Australia primarily used Allison, Griffon, and Merlin V12s. The availability and reliability of these engines after switching to turbochargers with nitrous oxide was dwindling the supply. Nearly all have switched to the lycooming gas turbine engines from Chinook Helicopters, but there are a couple teams that still use the old V12s (Merlins if they can find them).
The racing teams wouldn't be limited to all original parts if modern ones are available, but what do you think the likelihood of a team getting 2-3 engine blocks and cylinder heads? This is the first i have heard of the Napier engines.
There are estimated to only be 35-40 Sabre engines in existence, most of which are crash recovered; so the likelihood of finding one for racing would be low. New build blocks would be a better possibility, it will just take time. ~Ian
+ Jamy C. The boat racers gobbled up and destroyed as many engines as they could get their hands on. And the tractor pullers are destroying anything they can find. I think that if the hydroplane sport wishes to return to big displacement piston racing, they should either design their own engine or find a substitute. Falconer makes a nice V12 though it is smaller, but I think it could be configured as a marine variant. Also, Aerosport Engineering in Norway has a new aero V12 derived from BMW V12s that's delivering around 700 hp and I'm sure it could be modded to put out more power for a marine conversion.
@@FiveCentsPlease Thank you. Unlimited hydroplanes are out of my budget. I had a brief off the record conversation with driver Terry Troxel almost 20 years ago.
He was designing a revolutionary hull design with minimal drag coefficient and working with an engine builder in Canada. The plan was to supercharge 2 mated short stroke V8s. Two years later he had a mild stroke. He returned racing after his recovery, but retired because he wasn't as competitive.
I would like to see the sport eliminated the gas turbine engine unlimited class or even the class entire. The Grand Prix class is popular in Australia, but is the red headed stepchild in America and there is no excuse... (well, APBA bullshit politics). Everything people loved about Allison and Merlin is captured in these. 1500 HP blown Chevy big blocks deliver plenty of excitement.
I share your disappointment about the destruction of those beautiful V12 war bird engines. The Budwiser team would show up to races with a 40 foot trailer filled with them. They put a new engine in after every heat. They were as expendable as tires in auto racing. 😞
The teams that still use them cherish them like they are gold.
Good luck. Hope it's successful
It's nine o' clock, time for another episode.
Nine o'clock at Typhoon Legacy means it's time to get to work! ;) ~Ian
Napier made a W 12, dohc,4 valves per cylinder engine in 1917.
Great video thanks
It would be good to have on running on a Test Trailer, good for Shows, possible fund raising.
I also heard Rumour, that GM built some Sabre style test engines in the 40s & 50s.
I'd be very interested in learning more about any GM efforts on sleeve valve engines, do you have a source for this information? ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd You might have to see if you can go through GM's archives, as I said it was Rumour Value.
The sleeve material was very special. Bristol aero engines showed Napier how it was done and that solved the sleeve problem. Bristol had some really powerful air cooled Radials Bristol Pegasus for one.
@@anthonywilson4873 They sure did, reluctantly, and only because the Air Ministry persuaded them to share. I sure am glad they did! ~Ian
Bristol had spent milions on sleeve valves and did not want to lose that commercial confidentiality. Relations between Bristol and Napier seemingly improved once Napier had been taken over by English Electric, mid war
out of curiosity: what is that part on the top of the engine that looks like a small air-cooled piston?
That's an air compressor for brakes and gun firing systems. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd thanks. It reminded me of the little engines of the rc models I used to fly
Being a metallurgist, I wonder if there was any titanium.
I haven't come across any direct use of titanium or titanium alloys beyond the allowance of trace amounts in some other alloy compositions. I understand the use of Titanium alloys on their own was not common until post war (I stand to be corrected). ~Ian
I can't believe how compact this engine is... Ok yes I know when it has the supercharger attached it more or less doubles in size, but still.
The supercharger only adds about 12" to the length of the Sabre. ~Ian
What's the little finned device on the left side of the accessory cover rear of the Magneto?
That is an air compressor for guns and brakes. ~Ian
You may know this, but one old film about the Sabre said carbon monoxide was so bad in the cockpit that the pilot stayed on oxygen from startup to shutdown.
They did make several modifications in an effort to resolve this issue (sliding hood being one), but as far as I've found, oxygen remained a full time requirement throughout the Typhoon's service life. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Okay...glad you heard that! Would hate to have a pilot pass out after all of that work! Best wishes...I find the Sabre engine a fascinating design. M
Gerry Sayer, Gloster's chief test pilot was killed to this while flying a Typhoon in 1943. The final report on the crash blamed CO poisoning as the cause. From then on, all Typhoon pilots were on oxygen from engine startup until shutdown.
Good stuff thanks for posting.. Is that engine mount vibration problem on early ones anything to do with the tail end weakness?
Vibrations were a structural issue, however the rear fuselage failures early on were related to elevator flutter which caused excessive stress on the transport joint between the forward and rear monocoque sections. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Thanks Ian 👍🏼
Read "the high speed internal combustion engine " by Riccardo
Every video is about 3 days to short if you ask me.
Lol
Kermit Weeks has a few Sabres. But I guess you know that already.
Have you spoken with Kermit Weeks? He may able to help find parts for the engine and airframe.
Will you look at having EFI of some sort on the engine that will be in the aeroplane.???
Possibly, the later Sabre engines used an injection system. ~Ian
Ian is your Typhoon car door style or bubble canopy?
Oh to fly that beast!
Hi Bill, JP843 was re-fitted with the sliding hood in early 1944 but produced as a "Car Door" Typhoon in Sept of 1943 (flying with 197 Squadron as OV-T). As her last configuration was the sliding hood, small tailplane and three blade propeller, so that is how we will rebuild her. ~Ian
Forget the Typhoon. The Tempest was the real business.
The Tempest V and VI (Sabre powered) were fantastic aircraft too, they just don't have the history of the Typhoon. It would be fantastic to see both in the air again! ~Ian
Are there any Sabre engines anywhere in the world that are in running condition?
One of my bucket list items is to see a Sabre run.
I have seen the Sabre that is in the Smithsonian Garber Restoration facility, so that's been checked on my bucket list.
Reading the comments below, I see that you are considering generating a 3d solid model of the engine. Have you checked with the Smithsonian Air & Space archives? It wouldn't surprise me if they had a full set of blueprints for a Sabre. It would be a monumental task for a design engineer to translate 2d drawings into 3d solid models, but there are software packages out there that would help. I have a lot of experience designing engines in SolidWorks, but nothing as complex as the Sabre. It would be a large mountain to climb.
None running unfortunately, not since the 50's. From our investigation, there are no drawings in the Smithsonian, the Sabre they have was the spare from MN235 when in the US for evaluation. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Very interesting that drawings are so hard to find. I assume you already tried the Napier Power Heritage Trust. Did you try the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio?
Are there any anecdotal accounts from pilots/witnesses as to how this beast of an engine sounded?
There are a few wartime recordings floating around the internet, and while it's great they survived, the quality certainly isn't the same as it would be in person. I have heard that the Sabre sounded like a giant sewing machine; but have not confirmed where this came from originally. ~Ian
+ blockheadgreen Here is recording that was captured of Typhoons: th-cam.com/video/Fo0Lv1S3RfQ/w-d-xo.html The engine sounds very busy. I'm waiting for a Jumo 211 and Jumo 213 to compare with the DB series engines. The owner of a Jumo 211 did not give permission to release any video of testing from two years ago, and there should be a Jumo 213 tested later this year.
@@FiveCentsPlease Will there be a flying 190 Dora to go with that engine? I know a Flug Werk Dora was produced but it never flew with the Allison engine it was built with. Is it perhaps for the same airframe?
@@blockheadgreen_ Somebody has built another Allison-powered Flugwerk Dora and I think will test fly soon. The Jumo 213 is for a Dora although there is no announced time frame for when it will see any air.
Would it be possible or even financial feasible to restore it and maybe reproduce an engine using this as a blueprint and use one of these engines in an automobile of some sort like several people have done with the Meteor and Merlin engines? Especially since so many aero engines were used in race cars I can't help but think how cool this would be in a period car similar to how Jay Leno has built using Merlin/Meteor engines and his collection of period aero engine powered racers.
Certainly possible given the resources available, but it would also take someone with significant funding to entertain putting a Sabre in a car. Personally, I would like to see a Sabre mounted to a Fury at Reno... any takers? ~Ian
+ Chesspiece Adding that after all of these decades nobody has even managed to get one running on a stand demonstrates how rare and technically complex the Sabre is. There just aren't many of them around and I am astounded that Kermit Weeks managed to get ahold of two of them for his project. There are mechanical hobbyists out there who could do it, but there just aren't a lot of spares laying around.
Sabre
Ian...I sent an email question 4 or 5 days ago, and wondering if you got it?
I don't see it here, could you please re-send? ~Ian
Done!
What're you going to do about the carbon monoxide seepage into the cockpit?
Oxygen will be required for flight. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd - rgr that. Cheers.
Have you an engine that will fly?
Stay tuned my friend. ~Ian
Do you have any collaboration with Kermit Weeks/Fantasy Of Flight? As I understand he has on Tempest V with at least one very good Napier Sabre engine.
We do have some, however he has put his Tempest projects aside for now. ~Ian
That engine could be displayed as is.
Is anybody restoring these engines?
Not for running at the moment, that will change though! ~Ian