It was always my goal to take pictures to share, so I do mostly astrophotography, the key to this hobby is learn the night sky to get the full enjoyment out of it. To your point, I think people just starting just want to skip up to the photography part.
I might have come across as anti astrophotography, I actually wanted to start with astrophotography too, and I love it. I just lament the decline of visual astronomy.
I've been in this hobby since I was 14. I'm now 81, have my dream 150 refractor plus teleview eyepieces and a mixture of others, all premium eyepieces.Never get sick of the veiws. I have also had a go at astro photography, i've had some success' not a computer nerd, and yes find it frustating. give me an eyepiece every time. It took me years to get the gear I wanted. i'm happy.
My approach is very similar to yours- and so is my experience of the decline in visual. Nothing in the hobby has matched the joy that visual astronomy brings me. It's sad to see it declining, but at the same time it's worth celebrating the number of new people joining the hobby through automated smart telescopes. It will in future be only a minority who do visual, but the unique beauty it offers means it will never die.
I started in visual astronomy and just starting to get my feet wet in astrophotography. One thing I can say about visual astronomy is that when I am looking through the eyepiece at a globular cluster, a planet, the Moon, comets or even the Sun, I feel a connection to the universe. I can show a picture to someone but they can't grasp what they are looking at it the same way. You really notice this at star parties where people have seen many pictures but are in awe when they lay eyes on something for the first time.
I haven't done visual astronomy in a long time and am currently doing only astrophotography. I totally get, what you mean and think this is symptomatic of every hobby when paired with the superficiality of social media. I believe that deep down, the AP is the hobby of seeking approval, except when you try to push the "art" to some unconventional takes that could show popular objects in some unorthodox composition. That's why I cringe at all those Instagram reels "I pointed my telescope at the distant galaxy and this is what I saw (+ remix of interstellar music)", and it's just the billionth take of the Andromeda, Bode's or Pinwheel galaxy. All the reels are the same, I mean what's the point? I totally get the showing of the photos to your social bubble, but posting reels of everybody doing the same and presenting it as something epic and deep is just cringe tbh.
You make a good point. I have been into the hobby for about 6.5 months, and it has been challenging but I am convinced to keep at it. I have had difficulty with visual aspects because of focus which is not an issue when using cameras. People ask to see objects and I am not able to show them because of the cameras. I will focus more on visuals to be able to familiarize myself with both sides of the hobby. keep up the good work!
im in an astro group, went one night to their meetup and everyone there was doing astrophotography. it was a lil weird me being at my scope all night and everyone else on their computers and tablets. i dont get photography, ive always been the guy to just go on a trip and not really sweat taking pics of it cuz 100s of others prolly already have and much better pics then i would have
Well said sir, you are quite right. I have been doing astrophotography since 1990 starting with a 35mm camera and 50mm lens on a tripod. Nowadays I always take my binoculars with me when i go to my dark site to use while my RC8 system is taking my subs. The astronomy society I belong to does school visits with three or four visual setups. It is very satisfying to inspire the children but it is the case that some are not interested while others get very excited to see the Moon or Jupiter or Saturn. If it is cloudy then we show them our images and try to get them using a planishere instead of their phone or tablet which is often not properly aligned with the sky. All the best, Peter.
I started with astronomy in 2021 after seeing an article about Saturn coming up to opposition. I've been hooked on visual astronomy ever since. The challenge of finding my faint fuzzy target in the sky is so rewarding. The intense focus is relaxing and the reward of finding your target and confirming you got it is really cool. I also do astrophotography (usually narrow-band on nights where visual astronomy isn't so great). But there is no real connection to the sky with astrophotography like I get with visual astronomy. You just can't beat being out on a cool night under the stars. If I had to pick one, it would be visual.
I love both, but visual is more engaging and sense of satisfaction is higher. AP has it's own appeal and the post processing of the images extends enjoyment over several days. I just wish people would stop dismissing visual astronomy
Excellent analysis, I share your point of view. Astrophotography is exciting, but difficult, solitary and very expensive... Visual astronomy and astrophotography must absolutely coexist. And astrophotography sells dreams, but also greatly misleads people who imagine that it is simple.... The progress of astrophotography is also responsible for the disappointment in visual astronomy... we imagine that we will see wonders in the eyepiece, and it is most often false... Sometimes astrophotography is like a dangerous mirage... Considerably amplified by the social networks that we love so much...
I just began this hobby a few months ago. I already know my main focus will be visual, with my EP's and my 8" dob. I totally agree about finding a peaceful night of silence, and "WOWwwww!!"
I started in Astro Photography I stopped 4 years ago after 11 years of frustration with the weather, guiding, chasing that new camera and scope, I sold my observatory, now I simply wheel my 12 inch dob out of the garage and relax peeping between the clouds if I have to, I love visual and will never go back to AP.
@@ScrapYardDog64 I never started AP. I sat in on a couple of our Clubs AP meetings and was dumbfounded at what must be done just to image. It seemed frustrating and overly time consuming. Where’s the joy in that. I’m just not tech savvy enough so visual is fine for me.
I consider it the same thing. The camera just sees better than I do. While the camera is doing its thing, I'm sitting in a lawn chair looking around with my binoculars. I'm still outside at night with a telescope.
The appeal of visual is mostly do with being more actively invovlved in the hobby. There is the aspect of skill and challange involved and some things look way better visually than they do on a camera. They never compare. For example Saturn, I have yet to see a photo from readily accessible equipment that looks better than my visual experience.
Well put, you expose both perspectives with clarity, taking into account the human factor of living the connection with the real time experience with visual astronomy and also the learning curve and different experience of astrophotography, which involves a lot of post-processing and requires a lot of money and time.
Hi There - I enjoyed this video I am an Astrophotographer who has recently got back into visual. I think you raise some great points, and even my good images dont compare to how I feel looking thru an eyepiece. I think visual is very good in helping calm us down too in such a busy world. I did an interview recently on my channel with a visual astronomer I think you will enjoy. Cheers Ollie
Thank you for a really good video, I agree and really prefer visual Astronomy because it’s simpler and never boring. When I show someone Saturn in my telescope they are amazed what they can see with their own eyes, anyone can download and view a photo of Saturn from Hubble but to see these objects with their own eyes is awesome and is much less expensive. Thank you for your video.
I agree with all what you think. My goal has always been to feed my memory, not my hard disk. I like to see or even take - time to time - nice pictures of the sky wonders, but no image gives me the emotions I got when I look directly to some distant nebula, cluster or galaxy.
I started off visual with the odd bit of planetary imaging using an old adapted webcam, however after time the lure of astrophotography got my hooked & there have been nights of frustration but rewarding when it all comes together. I also did a lot of solar outreach showing people views of the Sun & that was very rewarding. I've seen people join groups pour loads of money buying kit, back then I'd always say get a refractor decent mount & a DSLR to try it out just in case the hobby isn't for you, but then you got people going no buy mono & filters & in some cases they did they bought everything. Of course then they'd want to know how it works but no one would tell them so in the end they'd sell up everything at a huge loss it's pretty sad really.
I love doing astrophotography and visual but I wanted to see things like nebulae which in a Bortle 7 backyard is near impossible with small refractors while astrophotography allows me to see what’s actually there that I can’t see. If I had something like an 8+” dob I’m sure I’d do more visual. I think the decline of visual astronomy is a combination of the introduction of cheap smart telescopes and the reason I started astrophotography. My goal has never been to get a ton of likes on instagram etc. My goal is to share this hobby with anyone who may come across and get people into astronomy.
I agree. I found that astrophotography is a rabbit hole. Yes, you can get started into astrophotography with a minimum of skill and spending a modest amount of money. However, one discovers quite quickly that to obtain print quality images it is going to be expensive. I am now retired and can tell that I simply don't have the kind of budget to come anywhere close to the level of quality, I actually gave up a long time ago. I know enough about astron0my that I turned to wanting to make a contribution to astronomy and am now turning to photometry of variable stars. Here I think I already have the necessary skills and equipment to accomplish it. Yes, I had to purchase a set of filters and a better mount, but I am going to use my existing CCD camera and OTA which are more than capable to do the job. Of course, I'd like to upgrade things but plan on seeing what I can accomplish without all the latest gear out there.
I suspect it's a factory for many, due to social media, but not all. I do lots of Astrophotography alongside my visual work, but I don't publish my photos publicly except in the few cases where I use them to promote sales in my shop. I don't even maintain an active social media presence.
Visual astronomy has limits to what you can see with your eye, things like nebula and deep space objects are things that are gorgeous. Visual astronomy is still a gateway though to astrophotography. I totally disagree with the sense of achievement though . There is a personal satisfaction to capture something amazing that you have only read in text books
Thanks for the (gentle) rant! I'm right there with that feeling. Light pollution has a lot to do with it. Urbanisation of the population means that (like most of us) I now live in a city. I've had so much access to large instruments observatories and dark skies in the past, that a city appartment based visual telescope can often be a bit of a disappointment. Especially when it involves an hour dragging a cart full of gear up to the roof terrace and setting up, under changeable weather conditions. The growth and promotion of superficial distractions is another big factor. If 7bn people were still able to invest some attention into (say) learning the stars and hand-pushing their telescopes to show views of the wonders they have learned how to find, then there would be no limit to what else they could do! The world order, bent on destroying our planet for short term riches, feels threatened by this possibility, and ensure that we are all constantly bombarded with seductive trivia designed to engage us for a moment, before its replaced. Human curiosity is easily triggered by 'the new' so the strategy reinvents itself continuously. The algorithm ensures that this trivia will always succeed in distracting us, and that is very effective in undermining our ability to think. By 'think' I mean - study, train, accumulate experience, analyse, assess, plan, or organize anything. Undermining that faculty helps to maintain the status quo. Engaging directly with the wonders of nature, and the perspective shift that this can bring about, is just one casualty of this social control policy, which has a sorrowful and pervasive impact on the human condition and life experience as a whole. Personally AP has compensated me for the impact of light pollution on my visual astronomy experience. The challenges that AP sets (not for everyone) remind me that I still can think... and sometimes succeed in winning little victories. So I don't really see any conflict between AP and visual. Although AP is on the up, and visual is declining (relatively) I see that as a symptom of something else. Right or wrong, newbies have reasonable personal reasons to miss out on, overlook, or reject the visual experience they never had, after being 'hyped' by exposure to professional observatory and spaced based photos for a generation. They might hear you, but are often making budget choices from an uninformed viewpoint, with hearts set on a particular 'sexy' objective. With the benefit of 60 years in astronomy, I was able to pep-up my hobby at retirement with a range of multi-purpose and specialised gear, including the big APO I always wanted, and some great eyepieces luggage and a camping cart for dark sky journeys (or special occasions like comets). Not everyone can afford to do that, and yes customers don't have to be receptive if you advise them really really well, and that's just not what they are ready for. They are the ones who ultimately loose out.
Here in the Middle East we have many pristine dark sky locations, but being one of the very few shops in the region I cam tell you the only visual gear I have been selling is department store grade telescopes. There is a decline and nobody is buying a serious visual setup. I recently had a discussion in a social media group about why hand controllers on goto mounts were needed for visual astronomy and most of the users sayed they use their laptops to control their telescopes for visual astronomy. Seems their definition of visual astronomy is planetary and looking at the moon. I bet most of them have never looked at a galaxy through an eyepiece
Hi Henry, beginners don't know the basics (they can't recognise the constellations use a star map or star hop to targets). I learned all this first with a 60mm f/7 bought from a catalog for about $40 I earned delivering newspapers when I was a 10 year old. In my teens I'd visit our local observatory as often as I could, and as time passed I was trusted with the 10" f/16 Cooke triplet in the main dome (a cast iron Victorian monster with setting circles and a clockwork drive). Beginners need to hone these skills with a telescope and a finder. It will take a full year cycle. They only need a store grade telescope to do this. But most people these days can't focus on a task for a full minute. Even back then I was an outlier too (there were maybe 50 others interested enough to join the club out of a city of quarter of a million). IMHO goto mounts are responsible for ruining the hobby for new starters. When it was still hard to find the crab nebula, seeing the tiny fuzzy blob was reward enough, and it gave you aperture fever! Now people just dial it in on the goto, take one look, and dismiss what they see with a grumble. Then (it seems) they turn to pure AP for what they hope will be 'instant gratification'. My last pure visual was an ancient 5" f16 doublet refractor which I put on a classic EQ6, but I had to downsize (to a shorter tube) when I moved from a house with a garden back to a flat in the city. Now I have an Orion EON 130 ED APO ( fl 910mm f/7) a set of their Q70 superwide field eyepieces a set of planetary shorter focus eyepieces and a barlow. This isn't a 16" Dob or a C14, but its serious enough for visual (even though it gets used for AP most of the time on a city roof terrace). I've been out to a friends house in bortle 5 sky, and we never do AP there - its always eyeballing - even though my AP gear (ASIair 533mc pro 2600mc pro cooled cameras and guiding) is an EAA wonder. I have to add that due to my reduced physical condition after an accident, I had to migrate this scope from EQ6 (that I upgraded with guiding and goto for AP) onto a lightweight AM5 strainwave mount (no polar scope, no clutches). And anyway, apart from certain transport and setup difficulties, that I had mastered, I have to compromise the tripod leg height to be able to lift the (13kg) OTA into the saddle. That means I can't bend down to get my eye behind a (non existent) polarscope, a (not usually mounted) finder, or even the eyepiece for very long, although the diagonal fixes the latter. To get back to the point: Whereas my EQ6 setup was fit to use visually (even without tracking, with a flat battery), with the modern approach, just the setup (PA) uses platesolving and needs power, an ASIair, and a camera (although the guide cam will do). Slewing to target needs power and a hand controller as well. So not using goto in these circumstances, is just being is stubborn for the sake of it. To be fair, I have to say that for all my "spoon feeding" objections and criticism of what goto has done to the hobby, its hit rate and the time saving (back ache saving) make it very convenient. I get why people let themselves get over-dependent on the dumb tech. The tragedy is that then they see no reason to do the hard groundwork, skip it, and miss out on the most rewarding part of the hobby as a result. Commercially Seestar (other models and brands are also available) make more sense these days for today's average entry-level beginner, although an 8" Dobsonian, a star atlas, a red head mounted torch, and some insect repellent would do them a lot more good!
@@amp2amp800 Hi, I started with a manual scope and being in the city it too me several months till I was able to see Andromeda galaxy for the first time. I remember the thrill and excitement, but honestly if it wasn't for Go-To I would have given up on the hobby. For most people they have no easy access to even moderately dark skies and their understanding of a dark sky is a street with no street lights. It is almost impossible to learn star hopping with such a sky. I have found the EQ6 too heave and I too have several accumulated injuries over the years taht are restricting what I can do. However, the iOptron mount of equivalent load capacity is 10 Kg liter in weight. That has helped a lot. Further more, I am not technology averse, and I don't mind using a computer for polar alignment. However, for those who don't want to use a computer iOptron firmware offers iterative star polar alignment and some companies sell right angle polar scopes for when your knees can't handle getting down on the ground to view through them. I went from manual to Goto to manual with setting circles. I set up my imaging scope and let it run on its own then I put up my 16" dob that disassemble into small easy to handle components and start visual observing while imaging.
Hi, good video and i tend to agree. Started in this hobby 2 years ago with 8SE, which i still use today for visual. But, i now own 5 AP rigs and have kinda gone to the dark side too. Partly because i live in bortle7 and what i can see from my backyard is not much. I do drive to dark sky’s sometimes and my car is full of equipment. 1 visual, 2 AP rigs, tent , cooler, etc…. Technology and Social Media have hurt the hobby. So, where do we go from here?
I think clubs need to have charismatic people who draw people into the hobby. More group trips with people who have infectious enthusiasm. Our club has a retired geologist who gets as excited as 5 year old at a candy store each time he looks through an eyepiece. People like this infect us with their enthusiasm and energy. Also, having a club that is all male driven is off-putting families and female members in general. We have been struggling in our club to recruit female equipment officers to operate telescopes and join the organizers group. However, if we can recruit one it will be a big draw for many new members to our club
I agree with what you said, I don't see anyone interested in visual astronomy anymore at least in my circle here in UAE, all of these guys just want to see pretty pictures and the worst thing is people are buying smart telescopes for visual.
I took photos with my phone and used them to share with friends, colleagues and family. They don’t do justice compared to what I see visually but I like to share what I see. I’ll never go for astrophotography because it’s expensive but I want to continue to immerse myself into outer space and get lost. I really like my 10mm Delos but kinda wish Televue offered a 30mm version of It. I love watching planets with it but my absolute favorite eyepiece is the 30mm UFF because of it’s flatness and clarity.
Here is the ironic thing, getting started in good quality astrophotography can be cheaper than visual astronomy if you already have a good quality camera with interchangeable lenses. You just get a sky tracker and a modest 60mm refractor of good quality and it will cost you way less than for example an 8" Goto Cassegrain
Astrophotography is too complicated for me. I like a grab and go telescope with no electronics. Sitting outside in a dark sky with simple equipment and a star map is all I need. Finding objects manually is all the reward I need. I agree that visual astronomy is slowly disappearing in favor of computerized cameras that create images with colors that you would never see otherwise.
Yep, I go out there and have AP rig taking photos while I observe with the dob. I also bring a hobby remote control car to keep me busy in the day time.
Not only am I an avid visual astronomer but I buy, fix up and resell telescopes for a side hustle. I’m shocked at how many prospective buyers want to see pics that I’ve taken with the scope. Everyone wants to be an astrophotographer with a $300 rig.
Been into astronomy about 12 years or more.. Light pollution here and I could see quite a few messier objects during 7 years, but only a handfull were visually impressive, like bright planets, and orion nebula. I have a 12 inch dob and was about to purchase a 16 inch but found out about night vision (light intensifiers). Changed everything. I could count mayby 7 stars on average naked eye where I live. With this, for example, I can see entire milky way band across the whole sky. So many galaxies etc. can now be seen even with all this light pollution. It's not cheap, but I could have spent same on new telescope. I do take lots of iphone images with it. But live viewing is much much better. The front objective lens is so huge like you're actually in the space itself.
Unfortunately night vision goggles are restricted technology in many countries. They are considered military tech and not available to the average citizen
1. Once youve seen the moon, planets and the seven sisters several times and other star clusters not to mention all the smudges in the sky its boring. 2. Its a money pit and not everyone can afford such telescopes and accessories you have in your room. 3. Once people realise they need to spend literally thousands on bigger mirrors/refractors etc.. and good quality eye pieces to get a decent view they tap out. Astrophotography is affordable and much more satisfying and can see much more detail and colour than our eyes ever could. My Conclusion... If you spend thousands then you will be invested for a longer period (money pit). If you spend a few hundred you can be amazed until your bored then get into astrophotography for the win and share your pictures with others and diy that thing and truly make it yours.
The reality is the only reason I got into astrophotography is because I can't (see) much with visual. After going all the up to a 10 inch scope and being undewhelmed with what I saw. I get it's not the same. But a hobby that I have to spend thousands of dollars on, and have to drive to a dark site, then being underwhelmed by the view is silly. Planets are nice in visual but honestly that got old 25 years ago. A 10 second exposure on a small refractor exceeds what I can see in a 14 inch dob and I don't have to haul it around or remortgage the house to get it.
I have been surprised how much better my visual experience became when I nailed collimation, did preplanned observing lists and used better-quality instruments. I was recently blown away by a 60mm APM finder, saw way more nebulae than I expected in a finder
Instead of visual dying I wonder if the number of visual people are staying the same but that there is an influx of astrophotographers dominating the hobby?
I love visual astronomy but my location is bortle 7.1 so the only thing I can really see with my Celestron 8" SCT are the planets, the moon, globular clusters, bright stars, and bright nebula. Galaxies and faint nebulae are invisible. The only way I can see them is through astrophotography. I hate that. I'd rather be seeing them with my eyes. The first time I started astrophotography I was wondering why anyone thought that was fun. It was boring. You point the telescope at a point in the sky and go inside to watch TV or read a book. There was no real connection to the telescope or to the stars. Visual was relaxing and it was "my time." That said, I found it was a new challenge for me in my old age. I saw the light of astrophotography, so to speak, and now I do astrophotography more than visual. In fact, I haven't done visual in about 2 or 3 months mainly because it throws all my focus settings out the window on my EAF when I attached a prism and/or Binoviewer.
Visual astronomy seems to be gradually losing its appeal, and perhaps one day, not many people will engage in it anymore. I spent several months outdoors enjoying visual astronomy, but I got bitten by mosquitoes in the hot weather more than I enjoyed the observing (although it is still wonderful when you see objects for the first time with the naked eye). Another issue is the worsening light pollution. However, I still have a small visual kit for family members when they want to observe. It is better and more amazing than letting them look at the monitor
I find that for visual astronomy, you need to have access to a good observing site in order to truly enjoy it. This includes being dark, mostly mosquito free and easy access. For mosquitos I have taken to setting up a perimeter of mosquito coils around my camp and that has worked well. I also always combine astronomy with fun camping acctivities so as to have more to do and keep even the uninterested members of the group entertained.
@@ASC-Explore Yeah. Visual astronomy still has its own charm, especially when we have friends around. Looking through the telescope and chatting is much more enjoyable than looking at a computer screen.
My Son wanted to get into astrophotography but I told him he must get into visual first. 8” Dobsonian and some Tele Vue Ethos and Naglers should do the trick.
@@ASC-Explore I know what you mean I once had to drive 2 hours to a place to view. and then later 72 miles. But Now I just view at home and the light pollution is getting much worse than 2 years ago.
I have a 12" Dobsonian, 5"in APO Refractor and 5" Maksutov, nothing but visual. Astrophotography is for people who like to look at screens. I love sitting under the stars late at night, quiet and peaceful. There is no substitute for looking through an eyepiece, what you see and learn. I had a Seestar, lost interest pretty quick, sold it. I might buy another smart scope someday, but I'll never stop looking, the planets are coming, Orion is about to rise. Mars will be in opposition in January.
The appeal of visual astronomy is the element of engagement. The more involved you are in something the more pleasure it gives. Instant gratification of Seastar gets old quickly, but its a great tool for public outreach
The idea of pointing an equipment to a specific sky object for long hours of exposure sometimes gets boring, and takes away the marvels of the night sky.
I like both but in my light polluted yard visual is useless and in reality get boring after seeing the rings of Saturn for the 125th time. Unless you have a very large aperture then there is only so many smudges you can observe.. You have an agenda since you sell scopes.
@@ASC-Explore Read everything I wrote and not just the bit that concerns you and only respond to that I outlined the reasons visual is dying yet you only respond to the agenda
I do agree with the limitations imposed by light pollution, but like any hobby some effort needs to be put into it to get the most out of it, this inludes going to dark skies. I appologies if I got a bit defensive about your comment on having an agenda, sometimes if you own a business you get so many comments about having an agenda that it ticks you off.
@@ASC-Explore All good, unfortunately taking a large aperture scope out to a dark sky site is not always feasible or possible. even if you do it will be an experience for sure but it is very limited. due to what you expect to see and what you do see.
Interesting... I myself started out with visual but struggled to find my way using a 200/1000 reflector. I do agree that when I did find things it was amazing. Within a week or two I was taking smartphone pics of what I saw and on searching 'how to' videos I came across deep sky astrophotography, which I didn't know was an amateur thing. That was it. I already wanted a goto setup and I knew if I had a DSLR too I could get into that... So I did, bit by bit. Within a few months I swapped eyepieces for a camera and never looked back. I love astrophotography and that's what I'll be doing with my scope on any rare clear night. I get so few I don't feel I can afford to give any up for visual. However. I will be getting a second reflector in a few months. Once I do I'll use it for astrophotograhy and mount my first on a DIY dob base for visual use. Then I can do both without sacrificing camera time. I'm quite looking forward to it. Whilst visual astronomy didn't have the long lasting appeal for me, that wow factor is something I will occasionally look for again. Clear skies!
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It was always my goal to take pictures to share, so I do mostly astrophotography, the key to this hobby is learn the night sky to get the full enjoyment out of it. To your point, I think people just starting just want to skip up to the photography part.
I might have come across as anti astrophotography, I actually wanted to start with astrophotography too, and I love it. I just lament the decline of visual astronomy.
I've been in this hobby since I was 14. I'm now 81, have my dream 150 refractor plus teleview eyepieces and a mixture of others, all premium eyepieces.Never get sick of the veiws. I have also had a go at astro photography, i've had some success' not a computer nerd, and yes find it frustating. give me an eyepiece every time. It took me years to get the gear I wanted. i'm happy.
Man, I aspire to keep doing this at 81. At 46 I already have several busted joints that make it harder and harder to sustain this hobby.
I like what you had to say! I personally agree with you ,and I love visual astronomy without a goto set up.
My approach is very similar to yours- and so is my experience of the decline in visual. Nothing in the hobby has matched the joy that visual astronomy brings me. It's sad to see it declining, but at the same time it's worth celebrating the number of new people joining the hobby through automated smart telescopes. It will in future be only a minority who do visual, but the unique beauty it offers means it will never die.
I started in visual astronomy and just starting to get my feet wet in astrophotography. One thing I can say about visual astronomy is that when I am looking through the eyepiece at a globular cluster, a planet, the Moon, comets or even the Sun, I feel a connection to the universe. I can show a picture to someone but they can't grasp what they are looking at it the same way. You really notice this at star parties where people have seen many pictures but are in awe when they lay eyes on something for the first time.
I haven't done visual astronomy in a long time and am currently doing only astrophotography. I totally get, what you mean and think this is symptomatic of every hobby when paired with the superficiality of social media. I believe that deep down, the AP is the hobby of seeking approval, except when you try to push the "art" to some unconventional takes that could show popular objects in some unorthodox composition. That's why I cringe at all those Instagram reels "I pointed my telescope at the distant galaxy and this is what I saw (+ remix of interstellar music)", and it's just the billionth take of the Andromeda, Bode's or Pinwheel galaxy. All the reels are the same, I mean what's the point? I totally get the showing of the photos to your social bubble, but posting reels of everybody doing the same and presenting it as something epic and deep is just cringe tbh.
You make a good point. I have been into the hobby for about 6.5 months, and it has been challenging but I am convinced to keep at it. I have had difficulty with visual aspects because of focus which is not an issue when using cameras. People ask to see objects and I am not able to show them because of the cameras. I will focus more on visuals to be able to familiarize myself with both sides of the hobby.
keep up the good work!
im in an astro group, went one night to their meetup and everyone there was doing astrophotography. it was a lil weird me being at my scope all night and everyone else on their computers and tablets. i dont get photography, ive always been the guy to just go on a trip and not really sweat taking pics of it cuz 100s of others prolly already have and much better pics then i would have
Well said sir, you are quite right.
I have been doing astrophotography since 1990 starting with a 35mm camera and 50mm lens on a tripod. Nowadays I always take my binoculars with me when i go to my dark site to use while my RC8 system is taking my subs. The astronomy society I belong to does school visits with three or four visual setups. It is very satisfying to inspire the children but it is the case that some are not interested while others get very excited to see the Moon or Jupiter or Saturn. If it is cloudy then we show them our images and try to get them using a planishere instead of their phone or tablet which is often not properly aligned with the sky.
All the best, Peter.
I started with astronomy in 2021 after seeing an article about Saturn coming up to opposition. I've been hooked on visual astronomy ever since. The challenge of finding my faint fuzzy target in the sky is so rewarding. The intense focus is relaxing and the reward of finding your target and confirming you got it is really cool. I also do astrophotography (usually narrow-band on nights where visual astronomy isn't so great). But there is no real connection to the sky with astrophotography like I get with visual astronomy. You just can't beat being out on a cool night under the stars.
If I had to pick one, it would be visual.
I love both, but visual is more engaging and sense of satisfaction is higher. AP has it's own appeal and the post processing of the images extends enjoyment over several days. I just wish people would stop dismissing visual astronomy
❤Love visual
Excellent analysis, I share your point of view. Astrophotography is exciting, but difficult, solitary and very expensive... Visual astronomy and astrophotography must absolutely coexist. And astrophotography sells dreams, but also greatly misleads people who imagine that it is simple.... The progress of astrophotography is also responsible for the disappointment in visual astronomy... we imagine that we will see wonders in the eyepiece, and it is most often false... Sometimes astrophotography is like a dangerous mirage... Considerably amplified by the social networks that we love so much...
Thank you, been working hard to promote our club to help combat this
I just began this hobby a few months ago. I already know my main focus will be visual, with my EP's and my 8" dob. I totally agree about finding a peaceful night of silence, and "WOWwwww!!"
I started in Astro Photography I stopped 4 years ago after 11 years of frustration with the weather, guiding, chasing that new camera and scope, I sold my observatory, now I simply wheel my 12 inch dob out of the garage and relax peeping between the clouds if I have to, I love visual and will never go back to AP.
I now always have a 16" dob along with the astrophotography setup and it gives me so much joy
@@ScrapYardDog64 I never started AP. I sat in on a couple of our Clubs AP meetings and was dumbfounded at what must be done just to image. It seemed frustrating and overly time consuming. Where’s the joy in that. I’m just not tech savvy enough so visual is fine for me.
I consider it the same thing. The camera just sees better than I do. While the camera is doing its thing, I'm sitting in a lawn chair looking around with my binoculars. I'm still outside at night with a telescope.
The appeal of visual is mostly do with being more actively invovlved in the hobby. There is the aspect of skill and challange involved and some things look way better visually than they do on a camera. They never compare. For example Saturn, I have yet to see a photo from readily accessible equipment that looks better than my visual experience.
Well put, you expose both perspectives with clarity, taking into account the human factor of living the connection with the real time experience with visual astronomy and also the learning curve and different experience of astrophotography, which involves a lot of post-processing and requires a lot of money and time.
Thanks, I try my best to take a balanced view, sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't good to know I managed it this time.
Hi There - I enjoyed this video I am an Astrophotographer who has recently got back into visual. I think you raise some great points, and even my good images dont compare to how I feel looking thru an eyepiece. I think visual is very good in helping calm us down too in such a busy world. I did an interview recently on my channel with a visual astronomer I think you will enjoy.
Cheers
Ollie
Hi, I will take a look at the video
Thank you for a really good video, I agree and really prefer visual Astronomy because it’s simpler and never boring. When I show someone Saturn in my telescope they are amazed what they can see with their own eyes, anyone can download and view a photo of Saturn from Hubble but to see these objects with their own eyes is awesome and is much less expensive. Thank you for your video.
Thank you for taking the time to watch it and commenting
I agree with all what you think. My goal has always been to feed my memory, not my hard disk. I like to see or even take - time to time - nice pictures of the sky wonders, but no image gives me the emotions I got when I look directly to some distant nebula, cluster or galaxy.
I started off visual with the odd bit of planetary imaging using an old adapted webcam, however after time the lure of astrophotography got my hooked & there have been nights of frustration but rewarding when it all comes together. I also did a lot of solar outreach showing people views of the Sun & that was very rewarding.
I've seen people join groups pour loads of money buying kit, back then I'd always say get a refractor decent mount & a DSLR to try it out just in case the hobby isn't for you, but then you got people going no buy mono & filters & in some cases they did they bought everything. Of course then they'd want to know how it works but no one would tell them so in the end they'd sell up everything at a huge loss it's pretty sad really.
The decline of visual astronomy summed up in 1 word. Instagram.
Everyone wants that dopamine hit on social media.
Fully agree
I love doing astrophotography and visual but I wanted to see things like nebulae which in a Bortle 7 backyard is near impossible with small refractors while astrophotography allows me to see what’s actually there that I can’t see. If I had something like an 8+” dob I’m sure I’d do more visual. I think the decline of visual astronomy is a combination of the introduction of cheap smart telescopes and the reason I started astrophotography. My goal has never been to get a ton of likes on instagram etc. My goal is to share this hobby with anyone who may come across and get people into astronomy.
I agree. I found that astrophotography is a rabbit hole. Yes, you can get started into astrophotography with a minimum of skill and spending a modest amount of money. However, one discovers quite quickly that to obtain print quality images it is going to be expensive. I am now retired and can tell that I simply don't have the kind of budget to come anywhere close to the level of quality, I actually gave up a long time ago. I know enough about astron0my that I turned to wanting to make a contribution to astronomy and am now turning to photometry of variable stars. Here I think I already have the necessary skills and equipment to accomplish it. Yes, I had to purchase a set of filters and a better mount, but I am going to use my existing CCD camera and OTA which are more than capable to do the job. Of course, I'd like to upgrade things but plan on seeing what I can accomplish without all the latest gear out there.
Contributing to research is a whole new area for me that while I am interested in it, I don't have the accademic knowledge to persue it.
Astrophotography probably fulfills the human need for recognition from others, purely visual observation offers nothing of the sort.
I suspect it's a factory for many, due to social media, but not all. I do lots of Astrophotography alongside my visual work, but I don't publish my photos publicly except in the few cases where I use them to promote sales in my shop. I don't even maintain an active social media presence.
Visual astronomy has limits to what you can see with your eye, things like nebula and deep space objects are things that are gorgeous. Visual astronomy is still a gateway though to astrophotography. I totally disagree with the sense of achievement though . There is a personal satisfaction to capture something amazing that you have only read in text books
@@Icharis Ya but you can just google an image of the object and get a photo way better than anything you could do.
But then you don't get the thrill of the hunt
Thanks for the (gentle) rant! I'm right there with that feeling. Light pollution has a lot to do with it. Urbanisation of the population means that (like most of us) I now live in a city. I've had so much access to large instruments observatories and dark skies in the past, that a city appartment based visual telescope can often be a bit of a disappointment. Especially when it involves an hour dragging a cart full of gear up to the roof terrace and setting up, under changeable weather conditions.
The growth and promotion of superficial distractions is another big factor. If 7bn people were still able to invest some attention into (say) learning the stars and hand-pushing their telescopes to show views of the wonders they have learned how to find, then there would be no limit to what else they could do! The world order, bent on destroying our planet for short term riches, feels threatened by this possibility, and ensure that we are all constantly bombarded with seductive trivia designed to engage us for a moment, before its replaced. Human curiosity is easily triggered by 'the new' so the strategy reinvents itself continuously. The algorithm ensures that this trivia will always succeed in distracting us, and that is very effective in undermining our ability to think. By 'think' I mean - study, train, accumulate experience, analyse, assess, plan, or organize anything. Undermining that faculty helps to maintain the status quo.
Engaging directly with the wonders of nature, and the perspective shift that this can bring about, is just one casualty of this social control policy, which has a sorrowful and pervasive impact on the human condition and life experience as a whole.
Personally AP has compensated me for the impact of light pollution on my visual astronomy experience. The challenges that AP sets (not for everyone) remind me that I still can think... and sometimes succeed in winning little victories. So I don't really see any conflict between AP and visual. Although AP is on the up, and visual is declining (relatively) I see that as a symptom of something else. Right or wrong, newbies have reasonable personal reasons to miss out on, overlook, or reject the visual experience they never had, after being 'hyped' by exposure to professional observatory and spaced based photos for a generation. They might hear you, but are often making budget choices from an uninformed viewpoint, with hearts set on a particular 'sexy' objective.
With the benefit of 60 years in astronomy, I was able to pep-up my hobby at retirement with a range of multi-purpose and specialised gear, including the big APO I always wanted, and some great eyepieces luggage and a camping cart for dark sky journeys (or special occasions like comets). Not everyone can afford to do that, and yes customers don't have to be receptive if you advise them really really well, and that's just not what they are ready for. They are the ones who ultimately loose out.
Here in the Middle East we have many pristine dark sky locations, but being one of the very few shops in the region I cam tell you the only visual gear I have been selling is department store grade telescopes. There is a decline and nobody is buying a serious visual setup. I recently had a discussion in a social media group about why hand controllers on goto mounts were needed for visual astronomy and most of the users sayed they use their laptops to control their telescopes for visual astronomy. Seems their definition of visual astronomy is planetary and looking at the moon. I bet most of them have never looked at a galaxy through an eyepiece
Hi Henry, beginners don't know the basics (they can't recognise the constellations use a star map or star hop to targets). I learned all this first with a 60mm f/7 bought from a catalog for about $40 I earned delivering newspapers when I was a 10 year old. In my teens I'd visit our local observatory as often as I could, and as time passed I was trusted with the 10" f/16 Cooke triplet in the main dome (a cast iron Victorian monster with setting circles and a clockwork drive).
Beginners need to hone these skills with a telescope and a finder. It will take a full year cycle. They only need a store grade telescope to do this. But most people these days can't focus on a task for a full minute. Even back then I was an outlier too (there were maybe 50 others interested enough to join the club out of a city of quarter of a million). IMHO goto mounts are responsible for ruining the hobby for new starters. When it was still hard to find the crab nebula, seeing the tiny fuzzy blob was reward enough, and it gave you aperture fever! Now people just dial it in on the goto, take one look, and dismiss what they see with a grumble. Then (it seems) they turn to pure AP for what they hope will be 'instant gratification'.
My last pure visual was an ancient 5" f16 doublet refractor which I put on a classic EQ6, but I had to downsize (to a shorter tube) when I moved from a house with a garden back to a flat in the city. Now I have an Orion EON 130 ED APO ( fl 910mm f/7) a set of their Q70 superwide field eyepieces a set of planetary shorter focus eyepieces and a barlow. This isn't a 16" Dob or a C14, but its serious enough for visual (even though it gets used for AP most of the time on a city roof terrace). I've been out to a friends house in bortle 5 sky, and we never do AP there - its always eyeballing - even though my AP gear (ASIair 533mc pro 2600mc pro cooled cameras and guiding) is an EAA wonder.
I have to add that due to my reduced physical condition after an accident, I had to migrate this scope from EQ6 (that I upgraded with guiding and goto for AP) onto a lightweight AM5 strainwave mount (no polar scope, no clutches). And anyway, apart from certain transport and setup difficulties, that I had mastered, I have to compromise the tripod leg height to be able to lift the (13kg) OTA into the saddle. That means I can't bend down to get my eye behind a (non existent) polarscope, a (not usually mounted) finder, or even the eyepiece for very long, although the diagonal fixes the latter.
To get back to the point: Whereas my EQ6 setup was fit to use visually (even without tracking, with a flat battery), with the modern approach, just the setup (PA) uses platesolving and needs power, an ASIair, and a camera (although the guide cam will do). Slewing to target needs power and a hand controller as well. So not using goto in these circumstances, is just being is stubborn for the sake of it. To be fair, I have to say that for all my "spoon feeding" objections and criticism of what goto has done to the hobby, its hit rate and the time saving (back ache saving) make it very convenient. I get why people let themselves get over-dependent on the dumb tech. The tragedy is that then they see no reason to do the hard groundwork, skip it, and miss out on the most rewarding part of the hobby as a result.
Commercially Seestar (other models and brands are also available) make more sense these days for today's average entry-level beginner, although an 8" Dobsonian, a star atlas, a red head mounted torch, and some insect repellent would do them a lot more good!
@@amp2amp800 Hi, I started with a manual scope and being in the city it too me several months till I was able to see Andromeda galaxy for the first time. I remember the thrill and excitement, but honestly if it wasn't for Go-To I would have given up on the hobby. For most people they have no easy access to even moderately dark skies and their understanding of a dark sky is a street with no street lights. It is almost impossible to learn star hopping with such a sky. I have found the EQ6 too heave and I too have several accumulated injuries over the years taht are restricting what I can do. However, the iOptron mount of equivalent load capacity is 10 Kg liter in weight. That has helped a lot. Further more, I am not technology averse, and I don't mind using a computer for polar alignment. However, for those who don't want to use a computer iOptron firmware offers iterative star polar alignment and some companies sell right angle polar scopes for when your knees can't handle getting down on the ground to view through them. I went from manual to Goto to manual with setting circles. I set up my imaging scope and let it run on its own then I put up my 16" dob that disassemble into small easy to handle components and start visual observing while imaging.
Hi, good video and i tend to agree. Started in this hobby 2 years ago with 8SE, which i still use today for visual. But, i now own 5 AP rigs and have kinda gone to the dark side too. Partly because i live in bortle7 and what i can see from my backyard is not much. I do drive to dark sky’s sometimes and my car is full of equipment. 1 visual, 2 AP rigs, tent , cooler, etc….
Technology and Social Media have hurt the hobby. So, where do we go from here?
I think clubs need to have charismatic people who draw people into the hobby. More group trips with people who have infectious enthusiasm. Our club has a retired geologist who gets as excited as 5 year old at a candy store each time he looks through an eyepiece. People like this infect us with their enthusiasm and energy. Also, having a club that is all male driven is off-putting families and female members in general. We have been struggling in our club to recruit female equipment officers to operate telescopes and join the organizers group. However, if we can recruit one it will be a big draw for many new members to our club
I agree with what you said, I don't see anyone interested in visual astronomy anymore at least in my circle here in UAE, all of these guys just want to see pretty pictures and the worst thing is people are buying smart telescopes for visual.
Yeah, people don't even want hand controllers anymore and they say a laptop is good enough to control the telescope for visual.🤦🏽♂️
I took photos with my phone and used them to share with friends, colleagues and family. They don’t do justice compared to what I see visually but I like to share what I see.
I’ll never go for astrophotography because it’s expensive but I want to continue to immerse myself into outer space and get lost. I really like my 10mm Delos but kinda wish Televue offered a 30mm version of It. I love watching planets with it but my absolute favorite eyepiece is the 30mm UFF because of it’s flatness and clarity.
Here is the ironic thing, getting started in good quality astrophotography can be cheaper than visual astronomy if you already have a good quality camera with interchangeable lenses. You just get a sky tracker and a modest 60mm refractor of good quality and it will cost you way less than for example an 8" Goto Cassegrain
Astrophotography is too complicated for me. I like a grab and go telescope with no electronics. Sitting outside in a dark sky with simple equipment and a star map is all I need. Finding objects manually is all the reward I need. I agree that visual astronomy is slowly disappearing in favor of computerized cameras that create images with colors that you would never see otherwise.
I haven't gone full native yet. I still use encoders or a Pifinder
I am a lover of both!
Yep, I go out there and have AP rig taking photos while I observe with the dob. I also bring a hobby remote control car to keep me busy in the day time.
Not only am I an avid visual astronomer but I buy, fix up and resell telescopes for a side hustle. I’m shocked at how many prospective buyers want to see pics that I’ve taken with the scope. Everyone wants to be an astrophotographer with a $300 rig.
Story of my life. Or even worse, the one that makes me go mental is how many Km's or Miles can you see with this instrument?
Been into astronomy about 12 years or more.. Light pollution here and I could see quite a few messier objects during 7 years, but only a handfull were visually impressive, like bright planets, and orion nebula. I have a 12 inch dob and was about to purchase a 16 inch but found out about night vision (light intensifiers). Changed everything. I could count mayby 7 stars on average naked eye where I live. With this, for example, I can see entire milky way band across the whole sky. So many galaxies etc. can now be seen even with all this light pollution. It's not cheap, but I could have spent same on new telescope. I do take lots of iphone images with it. But live viewing is much much better. The front objective lens is so huge like you're actually in the space itself.
Unfortunately night vision goggles are restricted technology in many countries. They are considered military tech and not available to the average citizen
I think visual astronomy is amazing. I love the photos as well. You can like both.
I do too, I have my 16" dob and my f2.8 HNT and run both in parallel.
1. Once youve seen the moon, planets and the seven sisters several times and other star clusters not to mention all the smudges in the sky its boring. 2. Its a money pit and not everyone can afford such telescopes and accessories you have in your room. 3. Once people realise they need to spend literally thousands on bigger mirrors/refractors etc.. and good quality eye pieces to get a decent view they tap out. Astrophotography is affordable and much more satisfying and can see much more detail and colour than our eyes ever could. My Conclusion... If you spend thousands then you will be invested for a longer period (money pit). If you spend a few hundred you can be amazed until your bored then get into astrophotography for the win and share your pictures with others and diy that thing and truly make it yours.
I agree, that skipping visual astronomy is a mistake. We need to go back and not let technology railroad our lives. We are missing out by doing so.
The reality is the only reason I got into astrophotography is because I can't (see) much with visual. After going all the up to a 10 inch scope and being undewhelmed with what I saw. I get it's not the same. But a hobby that I have to spend thousands of dollars on, and have to drive to a dark site, then being underwhelmed by the view is silly. Planets are nice in visual but honestly that got old 25 years ago. A 10 second exposure on a small refractor exceeds what I can see in a 14 inch dob and I don't have to haul it around or remortgage the house to get it.
So do you do electronically assisted astronomy where you have a live view on a tablet and short stacking?
I have been surprised how much better my visual experience became when I nailed collimation, did preplanned observing lists and used better-quality instruments. I was recently blown away by a 60mm APM finder, saw way more nebulae than I expected in a finder
Instead of visual dying I wonder if the number of visual people are staying the same but that there is an influx of astrophotographers dominating the hobby?
Not what my sales data shows
@@ASC-Explore Really. Well I know i'm a dinosaur. Get your gear while you can
I love visual astronomy but my location is bortle 7.1 so the only thing I can really see with my Celestron 8" SCT are the planets, the moon, globular clusters, bright stars, and bright nebula. Galaxies and faint nebulae are invisible. The only way I can see them is through astrophotography. I hate that. I'd rather be seeing them with my eyes.
The first time I started astrophotography I was wondering why anyone thought that was fun. It was boring. You point the telescope at a point in the sky and go inside to watch TV or read a book. There was no real connection to the telescope or to the stars. Visual was relaxing and it was "my time." That said, I found it was a new challenge for me in my old age. I saw the light of astrophotography, so to speak, and now I do astrophotography more than visual. In fact, I haven't done visual in about 2 or 3 months mainly because it throws all my focus settings out the window on my EAF when I attached a prism and/or Binoviewer.
Visual astronomy seems to be gradually losing its appeal, and perhaps one day, not many people will engage in it anymore.
I spent several months outdoors enjoying visual astronomy, but I got bitten by mosquitoes in the hot weather more than I enjoyed the observing (although it is still wonderful when you see objects for the first time with the naked eye). Another issue is the worsening light pollution.
However, I still have a small visual kit for family members when they want to observe. It is better and more amazing than letting them look at the monitor
I find that for visual astronomy, you need to have access to a good observing site in order to truly enjoy it. This includes being dark, mostly mosquito free and easy access. For mosquitos I have taken to setting up a perimeter of mosquito coils around my camp and that has worked well. I also always combine astronomy with fun camping acctivities so as to have more to do and keep even the uninterested members of the group entertained.
@@ASC-Explore Yeah. Visual astronomy still has its own charm, especially when we have friends around. Looking through the telescope and chatting is much more enjoyable than looking at a computer screen.
My Son wanted to get into astrophotography but I told him he must get into visual first. 8” Dobsonian and some Tele Vue Ethos and Naglers should do the trick.
Just make sure he has access to a dark sky on a regular basis to grow the passion for astronomy
I have declined in visual Astronomy because the Light Pollution is getting so bad. But I do not do Astrophotography.
I have to drive 3 to 4 hours to my observing sites, I understand the frustration
@@ASC-Explore I know what you mean I once had to drive 2 hours to a place to view. and then later 72 miles. But Now I just view at home and the light pollution is getting much worse than 2 years ago.
I love astrophotography but it can be a tedious business. Visual astronomy is more like meditation for me.
Agreed
I have a 12" Dobsonian, 5"in APO Refractor and 5" Maksutov, nothing but visual. Astrophotography is for people who like to look at screens. I love sitting under the stars late at night, quiet and peaceful. There is no substitute for looking through an eyepiece, what you see and learn. I had a Seestar, lost interest pretty quick, sold it. I might buy another smart scope someday, but I'll never stop looking, the planets are coming, Orion is about to rise. Mars will be in opposition in January.
The appeal of visual astronomy is the element of engagement. The more involved you are in something the more pleasure it gives. Instant gratification of Seastar gets old quickly, but its a great tool for public outreach
Excellent video
Thank you. I hope to come up with more content soon
The idea of pointing an equipment to a specific sky object for long hours of exposure sometimes gets boring, and takes away the marvels of the night sky.
I like both but in my light polluted yard visual is useless and in reality get boring after seeing the rings of Saturn for the 125th time. Unless you have a very large aperture then there is only so many smudges you can observe.. You have an agenda since you sell scopes.
Yes I do sell telescopes and make money on both visual and imaging setups, I don't see how that will make me biased toward visual telescopes
@@ASC-Explore Read everything I wrote and not just the bit that concerns you and only respond to that I outlined the reasons visual is dying yet you only respond to the agenda
I do agree with the limitations imposed by light pollution, but like any hobby some effort needs to be put into it to get the most out of it, this inludes going to dark skies. I appologies if I got a bit defensive about your comment on having an agenda, sometimes if you own a business you get so many comments about having an agenda that it ticks you off.
@@ASC-Explore All good, unfortunately taking a large aperture scope out to a dark sky site is not always feasible or possible. even if you do it will be an experience for sure but it is very limited. due to what you expect to see and what you do see.
Photo is easier and you can do it in light polluted places. Visual astronomy tools too big and too heavy
I can't argue with that. But worth the effort
Interesting... I myself started out with visual but struggled to find my way using a 200/1000 reflector. I do agree that when I did find things it was amazing. Within a week or two I was taking smartphone pics of what I saw and on searching 'how to' videos I came across deep sky astrophotography, which I didn't know was an amateur thing.
That was it. I already wanted a goto setup and I knew if I had a DSLR too I could get into that... So I did, bit by bit. Within a few months I swapped eyepieces for a camera and never looked back.
I love astrophotography and that's what I'll be doing with my scope on any rare clear night. I get so few I don't feel I can afford to give any up for visual.
However. I will be getting a second reflector in a few months. Once I do I'll use it for astrophotograhy and mount my first on a DIY dob base for visual use. Then I can do both without sacrificing camera time. I'm quite looking forward to it. Whilst visual astronomy didn't have the long lasting appeal for me, that wow factor is something I will occasionally look for again.
Clear skies!
I run a dual setup very often these days with one used for visual and another for imaging