I really hope Mindshift Skeptic chooses to accept all future invitations to co-host The Line and I also hope The Line chooses to invite him back frequently. Such a great counterpart to Matt & Jimmy
I agree. This show only needs matt, jimmy, this guy and Jmike. This is the absolute dream team. The cherry on top wound be the lady from ancient Atheist Experience shows what was her name? Something with T...Tracy I think. She was the BOMB - logic bomb, that is
In the atheistic universe man's hubris also causes suffering but there is no scientific basis to hope for a resolution. Only the true who can read hearts and raise the dead can guarantee justice
@@Coach_BigMac I'm addressing the issue on its own terms you claimed that the atheist universe is superior to the theistic universe.on their respective terms so I'm addressing that claim not the respective premises that is a separate discussion.
@@aservantofJEHOVAH7849 no one claimed anything of the sort. Stop attempting to put words in people's mouths to make your own unwanted/unprovoked messaging.
@@Coach_BigMac the video is addressing the problem of evil in a theistic universe so you have to address what is consistent with a theistic universe on its own terms. The fact that all life and everything needed to sustain it was provided by JEHOVAH. And that he has the power to raise the dead is relevant to any evaluation of consistency as distinct to a discussion of the verification of premises.
If a god did a fraction of what the god in the bible is alleged to have done, it would be charged for crimes against humanity. In fact, look at what the Christians did to Satan. Satan told the truth and the Christians have maligned that character's well.. good character. Satan told the truth to Adam and Eve and he's only linked to a handful of deaths (job's innocent family) and one could argue that he was following the Judeo-Christian god's commands. Contrast that with genocides and infanticides and human sacrifice just to name a few of this god's crimes against humanity. The differential is absurd.
My late wife died from massive brain swelling as a complication from an inoperable brain tumour. No "free agency" involved. Her sister once said to me, wracked with guilt that she was convinced my wife would still be alive if she just prayed more. Go ahead and tell me religion is harmless.
People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 First, that's some grade A cherry picking there, well done. Second, sin is a made up concept to scare people into believing in a made up god. Third, you're dumb and your mother dresses you funny.
"Failure of imagination" is such a great way to put it. I've had these kinds of talks with a former pastor of mine, and he usually defaults to saying that we need to experience hardships because they make life meaningful and make our successes more satisfying. "All the best stories have dramatic conflict that the characters need to overcome!" But he doesn't get that he's thinking inside the box of the world as it is. We could have been created in such a way that we find consistency and mundanity more compelling than dramatic conflict, and we could have been created fully capable of appreciating the good things in life without any need for contrast with the bad things.
Precisely. We could have been put into a universe in which we don't need to suffer hardships in order to appreciate things. We could just simply appreciate things fully without any pre requisite suffering at all. If God is all powerful he could make that reality.
I wouldn't necessarily say we need to experience hardships themselves, but I will admit, more challenging situations and problems tend to be the most mentally engaging and stimulating ones, which can sometimes lead to a self evolution of sorts. But generally speaking, things really shouldn't be exceedingly painful or traumatizing in order to be rewarding in the end, as that just defeats the purpose. It's kinda like the notion of physical exercise: tiny little tears in our muscles can lead to them healing 'n strengthening over time, but major injuries will undoubtedly leave permanent damage, so some challenge is okay as long as it's not heartwrenchingly stressful, or something like that.
@@Leith_Crowtherso that people can enjoy the dramatic document now let’s go to god I would say using your argument god is enjoying us suffering am I wrong? And also how would you even know he exist in the first place?
Mindshift Skeptic really added a lot today. I never listened to him before. Very smart, logical and had great examples. When I was a little kid I made a prayer challenge to god…let every child born be perfect and healthy around the world for just 7 days in a row. Still waiting on that one and in my 60’s now. And I moved toward science and nature at age 4 right after that last prayer. My atheism has never wavered.
@@fancyAlex1993 Agreed. That, and we have to account for regulating our own actions based on how we interact with other people and the environment, here in this one life and one planet that we have.
Except for the part where he cited Alex fucking O’Connor for long held, old, classic, ancient ideas within moral philosophy, as though Alex came up with them. That was embarrassing
There were parts of this that truly hit home for me and many victims of trauma. When I hear anyone say that what happened to them made them stronger is absolutely not helpful support or empathy. Victims of crimes, just a portion of this, don't always become stronger. Even when they work hard to heal and cope with the damage, they may still have after affects for a long time. The question I would ask anyone, how do you explain to a child who is being abused, and they pray to god to stop it but god doesn't, only to hear someone say, it helped to make you stronger. That, in itself, is abusive. Religion itself can be very abusive. I Enjoyed this team very much, I watch your individual programs often. Thank you both.
Some humans suffer and die and that’s it. So of course their suffering didn’t make them stronger or allow them to feel more pleasure. That’s when a theist will pivot to “god has a plan” “how can we possibly understand” “maybe in the big picture this is saving lives somehow”. Of course it’s easy to explain if there’s no god. Life’s not fair and there’s no intrinsic purpose.
The real thing that makes them stronger is the work they do to recover and heal, not being traumatized. I think people lack comprehensive communication and reasoning skills to effectively note the difference
Some of us do feel stronger in the other end of it.. Waaaay on the other end, after having been at the absolute bottom., devastated by the pain and grief.. and then working and struggling for ages, even decades, to get back up and feeling good about life once more. I saw no chance of that when I was suicidal. Now I know what it is like. So, yes it is possuble to come out stringer, but not everyone does, it is not a default result, so it is not very good as a comforting thing at all. At best, knowing that some people actually do experience this, might bring some hope. Personally, when talking to any victim.. I listen ( because noone really listened to me), and then it depends , sometimes all I can offer is a hug, sometimes a bit more. The one think I CAN offer, is to be available, and being a sounding board when that is needed.
All Humans need to repent & Believe in Jesus as their God. Why? Because all Humans have sinned (lied, lusted sexually, stolen, dishonoured parents etc). Avoid the fires of Hell (justice of God) and choose Heaven today. Jesus defeated death by rising from the dead. GOD IS HOLY
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus -
When I was Christian and heard this I would dismiss it with whatever default answer I had but when I stopped my bias I actually realize how good this quote is
I can't fathom their mindset one bit. I see the character of the Christian god to be absolutely horrific yet the Christian I know thinks he can do no wrong. Spending an eternity with him in heaven is something that can't come soon enough. the Christian I know does have a nice presence, kind etc however it's highly likely that an eternal reward is the reason for her helping the homeless, helping them to rebuild their lives. I used to speak to her once a week about her beliefs and rational thinking and Skepticism is completely out of the window. The indoctrination she has gone through has made her blind to reality. It's so sad
That point is very important. Believers tend to say god is a father for us but what you said is what I usually say, let’s compare it to a human father and you will quickly realize this god is a horrible monster!
I tend to be more direct. The god in the bible engaged in planetary level genocide because of the alleged sins of one species. I often ask theists what their children would have to do (in terms of sin) to destroy them with everything they know and gaslight them blaming their fault, as loving parent? I never got a reply to this question. Theists seem to be so detached from reality in their beliefs that the question shocks them.
Theists usually say that we didn't pray or believe in the right way which is why we got left playing hide and seek. Which makes me tell a hypothetical story. Karen pushes little 9 year old lucy into a dry well. Lucys dad shows up and Lucy starts screaming at dad saying that he is worthless and that he won't be able to save her. She curses at him. Would the dad go read the paper or would he save his ungrateful child?
As someone who lost my mom to cancer when I was 21, I am disgusted at the notion that getting cancer benefits life (so long as you survive). What a grossly inappropriate thing to say
WHAT IS HE MEANING OF LIFE? To have a relationship with God on earth so you can spend eternity together in Heaven. So, what pushes me away from God? Sin (lying, unforgiveness, sexual sins from lust, dishonouring parents, steeling, taking the Lord’s Name in vain etc) which leads to hell. But Jesus died on the Cross and rose from the dead to give you the ability to repent and Believe in Him as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363someone says their mom died of cancer and this is your grossly inappropriate reply. You are quite disgusting. Jesus said if you're a believer you can drink deadly poison and it won't hurt you. If you truly believe your BS scripture start drinking.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363All those sins are a result of living in a world that we did not create. If God loses even one soul, then He's not God. If there is a sin problem the problem is with the one who created the possibility (inevitability) of sin. Revelations says God will destroy death once and for all at the end. Yet, Ezekiel says that when the fountain of life comes out of the new temple animal sacrifices will be accepted for the Prince and his people. The Bible is bullshit. If Jesus and the Bible were real we would all be screwed.
@@mikieemiike3979 There is sacrifice in the milennial kingdom but not afterwards for eternity as there is no more death People sin from freewill and God provides forgiveness for them through Jesus . Jesus showed His love for you now you love Him back
@@SaintD382 Go back about a month and you'll see the whole show. It was around the time when Brandon was about to go on that vacation(he did about a week of pre-recorded shows and this show right before he left). I looked in the description to see if it had a link to the original show, but I didn't see one.
Why does God feel the need to make my dad go through cancer four times? Coming close to dying once wasn't enough? Why do you have to torture him and take away his cognitive functions for over a week leaving him to know that he can't get his brain to work correctly and experiencing more than half of the event? Did he have to go through that torture just so that he now has PTSD from it? Why did he have to take away all of his dignity and make him wither away after all the hard work he had put in to building up his muscles and exercising? Why is a torturing a man that still believes in him?
Of course I get your indignation, but I can’t help responding.. we all waste away eventually. What’s the point of any of it for anyone, cancer or not? A theist can say your dad already achieved his purpose (maybe raising you), and this demise is the best one of the available possibilities. There’s always a way to squirm out of it. If suffering is gratuitous then “god works in mysterious ways” Of course for the atheist this is a much easier question to answer.
@darkstar4494 How would the theist demonstrate their beliefs? Is there good reason for a theist to push the points you made? It doesn't matter what someone is capable of saying. Can the theist demonstrate that their views are correct?
@darkstar4494 Could a theist sufficiently explain why it's acceptable for a God to give someone cancer 4 times and almost kill them? None of your examples are sufficient to me. This God is evil. Are your examples sufficient enough to demonstrate to you that the Christian God isn't evil?
@@coreymiller6717 you are asking different questions. The theist explanation is sufficient and complete. It’s 100% airtight, which is easy to achieve when you can make up whatever you want. Why did you dad have to get cancer 4 times? “god works in mysterious ways” or “it’s serving some other greater purpose that you can’t understand. Don’t worry, it’s all part of gods plan”. Done. Airtight. No, there’s no reason to think it’s true, and no they can’t demonstrate it. Of course it’s not satisfying intuitively when you’re the one suffering. … then they follow up with “suffering in this life is a brief moment before spending eternity in paradise”. That should smooth everything over right? For many, this is deeply reassuring. Beliefs can have a huge effect on how you feel.
7:30 Why can’t we fly? Why were we not born with the capacity to breathe underwater? How come those limits don’t inhibit our free will? How come removing the ability to be awful to each other would suddenly be a limit too far?
I know I always say how come I can't jump to the moon and back or walk through the wall cuz there are limitations and yet supposedly there is still free will. These believers don't seem to realize they're out of excuses.
The caller brushed against divine hiddenness but then dismissed it saying God revealing himself would destroy free will. My question then is why did God hate Paul so much by giving him a vision of Jesus? What did God have against the disciples who saw Jesus in person? Adam and Eve walked around with God in the Garden. Abraham sat down with God for lunch. Jacob had a freaking wrestling match with God. Why was God so comfortable with removing all of those figures free will, and why did he change his mind now? Are we better than all those Biblical figures in that we don't deserve our free will taken away, but they did?
Yeah, it's the same thing as with the cancer discussion. That being said, he did admit that he's not a Christian so we don't know if he believes that god has appeared to anyone.. It's still a greta point though, since Christians do argue that
Here's a technique I wrote, from my bag of checkmate tricks, anyone can copy, use, modify if they like: "I have a question about this presuppositional, so-called "god"… _…that you would have we, the supposed 'condemned and lost' unbelievers, to believe in…_ *Question:* Does this omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent presuppositional, so-called "god…" …that you want us to believe in… _…know…_ *…who* will go to "heaven"… …and _who_ will go to "hell"… *_👉 before_* 'he' "creates" each person? *It's yes or no. It does / is a tri-omni "Superstar" or does not know a truthful future* Which is it? *Checkmate.*
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
As an internal critique of the traditional god of classical theism and a good deal of the Abrahamic faiths, the problem of suffering is pretty damn hard to contend with. A truly omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent being would be able to create a world *entirely without suffering of any kind*, excessive or not. Period, end of story.
@goldwhitedragon Because all loving parents strive to introduce suffering to their children? A tsunami that drags children from their parents' arms and out into the sea to drown seems excessive. Almost 230,000 people died in the 2004 tsunami in Indonesia.
@@QuestionThingsUseLogic Yeah Brandon is really gifted. He is a natural at this. I have been a sub of his for quite a while now and he always impresses me.
@@Omerta_1964 true! His incredible devotion and study of the bible initially has given him a fantastic base to work from! The best Atheists for Christians are those who really know what the bible says. I myself have gone onto studying and searching why the bible was written and who wrote it. My findings have totally satisfied my questions. Basically, it was to create slaves... mentally, emotionally, financially and practically. Good to be free though 🎉🎉🎉🎉
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
Of this whole test of life that gets you there (or not). Most people's afterlife concepts are internally nonsense when they propose a god that is their friend.
Oh, well we have free will to get to the place that God already knows we're going but the only way to get there is through free will. I hope that clears things up😂 Welcome to heaven did you like free will? Yes, it was nice being able "sin" like wearing clothing woven together of two different kinds of material and eating shrimp on occasion. Well there will be no free will here in heaven. Basically you'll be able to do a lot less things here in heaven and you're stuck here for eternity... enjoy😂
Those who advocate that suffering makes us better … like the caller did some 12 minutes in … they forget that they believe that there exists a perfect being who could not be improved upon in any conceivable sense, and this being didn’t have to suffer for even a second for that and they believe it could not suffer anything even in theory. They need to remember what they’re actually defending.
Buddhism had a way around this, but Abrahamic religions do not. Sad that in trying to outdo all other religions, the abrahamic ones became the most contradictory and difficult to defend
Free will, if it exists, exists *within* the framework of what is possible. If evil isn’t possible, then free will still exists, it just doesn’t include the ability to do evil. Just like free will exists today, but doesn’t include the ability for humans to fly (without technological aid).
Why is free will preferable at all? I propose it's only good in the absence of perfection. Existence could be entirely curated, and still be special to the person experiencing it.
"Is there free will in heaven" is a good question. Whatever comes after the judgement etc, is supposedly this forever paradise, new heaven and earth etc. Why? What will be different from Adam and Eve? Why will it never again be that 'iniquity is found' in any being as it was with Lucifer in heaven (and I guess whoever saw fit to join him)? Why will no one who was supposedly 'saved' ever again choose 'wrong'? What will be different about human 2.0? And why didn't the all powerful god do _that_ to begin with? The entire story of god and man as described by christianity seems more like a cosmic author discarding drafts as it tries to write the perfect book. Or Occam's Razor - we made it up. Like a young child makes up an imaginary friend, our young species created gods to explain what we don't yet understand and soothe our fears (including our fear of others who we must control or destroy to feel safe)
My main issue is very similar to "why not heaven now". If the god posited is an omni god, why would we need to grow at all? The result is already determined. Any "growth" is moot, a trick.
People need to remember that the problem of suffering/evil is only a problem if you think God is all good. If God isn't actually all good, it's not a problem. So, the problem just points out that it doesn't seem like God is in fact all good.
People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.
Its excellent that they gave this caller free rein to perfectly display the kind of perverse thinking rhat religion causes. It is exactly what people need to see and understand about the so called "good" xtians
He said god could take away evil and not take away free will doesn’t make sense to him??? How ridiculous 🤦🏽♀️ the amount of people that believe we have actually free will in this society is beyond me.
Jack there is a difference between a child born with bone cancer that is needless suffering vs someone driving a car and some other human or they themselves causes an accident and ends up paralyzed.
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
@@einyv God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, and evil Spirits the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I don't need further details. I used to believe but ultimately realized the reason I believed was ignorance, indoctrination and just lack of knowledge of other disciplines until I took religious studies, psychology, environmental psychology, sociology, chemistry, biology etc. Simply no sufficient reason to believe any god exists, the "supernatural", miracles etc.. All are not real. I believe you think you experienced something. If you made you a better person great. I just don't think the reason is what you think of it because thousands of years and not a single piece of sufficient evidence to confirm any god exists. Religious book are claims not evidence. If any god exists and knows what would convince me of its existence but doesn't, only 2 possibilities exists. 1 it doesn't exist or 2 it doesn't care if I believe it exists, either way it's indistinguishable from a non existing God. Before you bring up free will that's a BS respons. I can 100% admit a god exists if given evidence and still free refuse to worship. (A perfect being wouldn't require it anyway).
My son got cancer at two and a half and died 18 cruel months later. Whose growth was that for? This caller makes no sense. Is there no other way to help us appreciate life?
God is the epitome of Holiness because He is sinlessly perfect, A sinner (liar, sexually immoral, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, thief etc) cannot be in the presence of God or else he will be utterly consumed therefore repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven.
Jack, I do think you really do lose greatly (which I wish the hosts harped on,) when you said “ from my perspective, suffering made him better.” He then proceeded to say “well suffering is like having your heart broke from a girlfriend.” 1)Suffering has different definitions. Some may argue suffering is an unnecessary, overbearing, uncontrollable action that hurts someone. Some may say “breaking up with a girl IS NOT suffering.” Even if we agree that brekIng up is differing g (which again depends on the context), there might be different levels of sadness. Some levels are normal. You stub your toe, break your harm, end a relationship. Then we go higher, death of a loved one, financial debt that forced you to leave your home and beg for help, a day in court, facing an incurable disease, starvation, rape, genocide, political suppression, etc. 2)breaking up with a girlfriend may not be a teaching moment. We meet ppl at different stages, some matter more than others, some we forget. In fact, there are MANY ppl who dont recover after breaking up. Actions have different consequences for different ppl. Guys like Charles Whitman, son of Sam, Lee Harvey Oswald, Ted by day, school shooters, and Many more despicable ppl HAD relationship problems and those issues kept coming up for them-often convincing them to do unspeakable acts of evil. And to quote Boajck horseman and tuca and Bettie which some may absolutely agree with, “suffering didn’t make you better. It didn’t make you stronger. It JUST happened.”
disagree. the argument i was making that breakups can differ in their impacts. and what dosnt kill you may actually slowly eat you away. there are many ppl who dont move on from a failed romance, etc. And i was bringing up these individuals because they are in some cases a product of their environments and they (and many ppl who are simialr to them even if they dont commit crimes) may have simialr viewpoints. Afterall, how many ppl dont mature? dont learn? continue to double down? They may not be criminals but they are not acting as moral or as mature? YOu cited Nietz, id look at bojack horseman. A running theme of that show was that despite the repeated failures of the characters (mostly bojack) to have good relationships they usually tend to double down and act as the vitim.
People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.
I think that our understanding that eternal perfection and pleasure without any suffering somehow losing a certain value just reveals our own perceptions, with us stuck in this reality, that illustrates the absurdity of an all good god.
This is how theist calls should go. Intellectual honesty for the most part. Willing to listen and consider, not interrupting Matt and making him blow his stack.
Christianity is like as if you were suddenly hired to do a job that you never applied to and were given no instructions or directions, yet you will be fired if you mess up. Digging through, you find an outdated manual that kinda shows you what your responsibilities are, yet you look around and no one is doing what the manual says.
It has been less than a year now since I finally admitted to myself and those around me that Im an atheist. What seems to confuse the theists(read: Christians) I know, is that there has been a marked improvement in my happiness and outlook on life since then. The reason for this is that with God out of the picture, there is only us. We are responsible for our circumstances. There's no greater plan. No lesson to be learned. The pain and suffering in the world is just what it is. Pain and suffering. It is up to us to reduce that. It is up to us to make the world we live in better. We already have, in so many ways, and can continue to do so. Without God, WE are the mightiest force of consciousness in existence(barring potential extraterrestrials). And that can be terrifying to accept. Because it means if we fail, as individuals or as a species, there is nobody else to blame. We are the ultimate arbiters of our fate. This is the point that I think a lot of theists get hung up on. God is comforting in giving you a scapegoat when bad shit happens. But if you embrace the fact that it's just us, it means that we are only limited by our own imaginations and ability to bend existence to our wills. Thats the most empowering idea I can think of and it's why I'm more hopeful as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian.
I’m now imaging Stephen Fry imitating Jerry Seinfeld “What’s the deal with children and cancer?” God, of course, would be played by Hugh Laurie, and would just stutter and mumble.
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
@@andrewwatts1997 You are the correct person The issue at hand is sin and God’s nature of being just. Sin brings suffering (the pleasure is short term, and the suffering is long term-on earth and in hell forever). God brings Righteousness (may have short term suffering followed by long term pleasure- on earth and in Heaven). If you love yourself repent of your sins (lying, hatred, unforgiveness, sexual sins, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, stealing, dishonouring your parents etc) & believe in Jesus for forgiveness of sins. (Jesus died on the Cross as a sacrifice and defeated death by rising from the dead)
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Gods nature of being just. You scare me when you say that a being that is everywhere at any time and calmly looks in any direction to see people dying, drowning, burning and being eaten alive by parasites he created himself and does absolutely nothing. Such justice as, sending a group of people to kill others, Demanding a bear maul children because they made fun of a bald guy and allowing his angels to fornicate with teenagers as a sacrifice to the village. You are worshipping a demented mob boss and telling me I am being silly for not doing so. get help.
Also, the immune system perspective metaphor is very unequivalent, because one, the cells don't have self awareness and don't "feel" pain, and two, the fact that an all powerful and all good designed simply couldn't have written the very rules and dynamics of how we deal with suffering is just a lack of imagination.
I don't know whether cells "feel" pain or have some form of awareness. But then still it is a bad argument. An omnipotent god could have created an immune system that doesn't need all that chaos and destruction; or could have created beings that don't need an immune system even because they are never attacked by anything.
@@landsgevaer yeah, granted , that premise I put there is an assumption. We can't way for sure that cells don't feel what we call pain or suffering or have awareness, but I don't know of any evidence for them to have it, and we don't know of any experience of awareness or pain without a nervous system for the first and a brain for the latter, but I could be wrong. If he is willing to use the comparison proposing that cells feel pain and are aware as humans, he should prove that they do and are.
@@hazok4351 I don't know of any way to assess whether something has sentience. The fact that we only know of sentience to exist in some things-with-brains says zero about things-without-brains (i.e. a brain may be sufficient to have sentience, but that doesn't make it necessary). The brain is mostly adequate for something to be responsive, as far as I know; but plants and fungi and computers are responsive too, and I know no method of determining whether they have some form of sentience/awareness/consciousness. But indeed, this is just a side-note that isn't meant to defend the caller. The burden is upon him to provide evidence, I fully agree.
God is the epitome of Holiness because He is sinlessly perfect, A sinner (liar, sexually immoral, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, thief etc) cannot be in the presence of God or else he will be utterly consumed therefore repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 and NO your god and jesus were not sinless and are not 'holy'. In fact the authors of the NT had this inside joke of bread that was made using 💩 and baked, fed to the starving chosenites and the term 'Bread of Life' was very simply stating jesus was full of 💩. That's the true meaning. So, in truth, saying *holy* 💩 is a reference to jesus...
The other good question to ask is why it's so important to Gawd that we believe in him. Why is _that_ Gawd's line in the sand? You can rape, murder, steal, destroy people's lives, but the ONLY "sin" that is unforgivable is that you are just not convinced that he exists. How stupid and self-aggrandizing is that?
All Humans need to repent & Believe in Jesus as their God. Why? Because all Humans have sinned (lied, lusted sexually, stolen, dishonoured parents, unbelief etc). Avoid the fires of Hell (justice of God) and choose Heaven today. Jesus defeated death by rising from the dead. GOD IS HOLY
I get what Jack was saying, but there is still a central problem with a creator god, who is supposed to be "...(an) Absolute God, his omnipotence, his omnipresence, his omniscience, his omnisapience, and his omnibenevolence which together assure us that YHWH, has created the best possible world and he offers every person the best opportunity to worship and enjoy him forever.omnificent, omniscient, and omnipotent" -Wiki The Five Omnis He could have created a world that was the best of all worlds for all beings, but despite being credited these attributes, Yahweh, in his omnisapience still chose not to make that world. It doesn't necessarily disprove the existence of Yahweh, but if he does exist, it sure makes him look like an omnijerk.
@@c.guydubois8270 IMHO any deity who demands worship doesn't deserve respect. Why would an all powerful being require it. Similarly, I have a problem wit blasphemy. How can such a being be hurt by what I say? I'm so insignificant in comparison to such a being I can't even think of an adequate analogy.
"it did for one wild moment cross my mind that, perhaps, those might not be the very best judges of the relation of religion to happiness who, by their own account, had neither one nor the other” (G.K. Chesterton)
Why couldn’t god have given us the “experience” without actually having to go through it. Why do some people have certain diseases but others don’t, do some people inherently need more hardship than others? There’s soooo much more problems with what the caller keeps trying to push
I personally agree with Matt that the problem of evil or suffering is not a good argument for or, particularly, against a god. While I'm an atheist, one concept of a god that I can at least entertain is the one in which that god is evil. I think an evil god far better explains our reality than an all-loving god. I will maintain that the problem of evil / suffering is pretty much a nail in the coffin for me with respect to Christianity. I also find it exceedingly more interesting and meaningful if we are an "accident" of the universe. When I think of the countless fortunate events over the course of billions of years that led to the propagation of our species and us as individuals, I'm absolutely blown away. Just image how many individuals had to procreate and pass on their genes to get to the next generation, and the next generation, and the next generation, and the next generation, and so on and so on for millenia to get to you. It is absolutely incredible. The alternative is that we are just the product of the ejaculate from a sadistic, supernatural being's wet dream. Put here for its' entertainment.
It’s works fine as an argument against an omnibenevolent omnipotent god. I’m not aware of any Christians that believe god is evil. Edit: oh sorry, you did say it’s a nail in the coffin for Christianity. I agree.
As an atheist all though I do not believe in an afterlife if one turned out to be true I would not have a problem with it. But this is in one condition if no one suffers in that after life and people have all bad traits and tendencies removed from them.
Our pain receptors are there to protect us. Matt used touching a hot surface as an example. If we didn’t have the pain receptors, we have. We would do more damage to ourselves. We may not move fast enough away from the heat source, so instead of a small blister, we would get third-degree burns or worse. So a low pain threshold is evolutionary advantageous. Just saying. 🙂
"He" could have made us with a more resistant skin if "He" is so powerful and capable of doing great things. But "He" didn't because "He" either doesn't care or doesn't exist.
Why does that pain have to last? Why does that damage have to last? Why can't it simply be momentary, we acknowledge it was painful and therefore dangerous, and then we immediately heal up and move on with our lives?
@@zachrichardson5581 I suppose it depends on the damage. Sometimes the pain is only fleeting. I wouldn’t say any pain lasts. Maybe if you don’t get it treated it will take longer to heal and maybe even become infected, but that’s up to you.
Why does God always honor the freewill of rapists over the freewill of their victims? That child didn't want to be raped, and presumably cried out for help. And yet God denies the child's will to escape. And if the child survives, they are plagued by a host of other psychological traumas that their freewill cannot exorcise, such as nightmares and PTSD for years to come or even permanently. How they wish that they could be free of this psychological burden, and yet God does not honor their will to forget.
I've always been under the impression that we have pain so we don't cut ourselves into threads in the name of fashion 😅 12:44 and by the way I enjoyed listening to the new guy 🎉
The problem of evil isn't a situation to negotiate that you can go back or forth on to solve the problem. It's a response to a claim that god is good. There wouldn't be a "the problem of evil" argument if the god claim was that god is evil or doesn't care, or there isn't a god at all. Child leukemia is more rational in a world without a god, or a god that is evil or is completely impartial/hands off to human suffering. The latter arguments would lend to the idea of a god not worthy or worthwhile to worship.
Our immune systems are not great! My immune system is overreacted causing me to have allergies. I get incredibly itchy teeny tiny blisters all over my hands and feet because of allergies. Some people's immune systems are over react and they literally destroy that person! But you've got psoriasis and MS. Then you have the immune system not being good enough and allowing cancerous tumors to grow and develop and take over a person's body until it slowly kills that person. Our immune systems are not great and this is an absolutely terrible terrible example.
Yeah, our immune systems are a prime example of evolution. They work _just well enough_ to improve our chances at survival, but not well enough to really be good. If someone intentionally designed our immune system the way it was, when they had literally no physical constraints or material limitations or resource limitations... then either that designer is as dumb as a brick... or it really doesn't like us.
loved Brandon on the show, he needs his voice amplified. His Mindshift channel is the most effective and entertaining form of clarity therapy you can find.
@@Diviance It is funny how so many put the cart before the horse, taking existence for granted. I imagine it’s a splash of cold water in the face for them to be asked to do the thing properly.
What about the worm that burrows in the eyes of its victims and blinds them... is that the same as breaking up with a boyfriend? Apologists for the problem of evil are not just failing in their imagination of what a "god" can do... they are failing in heir understanding of what it means to suffer since they have never actually suffered other than the "strife" of being the rich and privileged.
What lesson does the mother who risked her life and permanently altered her body learn from the death of that child? They never think about that even once
Although I don't agree with everything the caller said, he was one of the smartest, most honest and aware callers I've heard on this show. I think the lack of outburts from Matt reflects that. It made for an interesting discussion.
@@cambriaofthevastoceans6721 Yea, I was waiting for Matt to fly off the handle. That's one thing I really liked about this convo, think Brandon's demeanor and the way he answered the questions led to a less aggressive conversation. Matt kinda went with the flow. It concerns me sometimes when I watch this channel how Theist may walk away with the wrong impression of Atheists or Agnostics. Matt is a really bright, wise and knowledgeable guy. Sometimes his remarks and the way he responds isn't exactly the most polite though(rightly so at times).
That just means that most other theists are even more irrational or dishonest in their arguments. Siberia has the most pleasant weather. Compared to other places that have worse weather. But you still don't go on a summer holiday there.
@@slippyC73 Agreed. Matt is super respectful and open minded, but when people are unreasonable and try to turn a discussion into a monologue, you can't blame a guy for being impatient. And personally I love hearing him say the things I wish I could say to people when we have similar conversations. But when they're co-workers or family members, sometimes you have to pick your battles and bite your tongue.
@@cambriaofthevastoceans6721 For sure, but where most callers on this show avoid questions and deflect everything being said, this guy answered questions and addressed the points being made. It shows that even if someone brings flawed arguments, there can still be a pleasant (and potentially eye-opening) discussion.
This caller and I are on the same page. To believe in the Christian god you would have to have, no chronic sickness or pain, no ability to violate the consent of others, no hunger or thirst, no depression, no loneliness, and no lack of shelter at the bare minimum.
Free will is such a BS response for needless suffering or for God in general. I could be given the evidence i need to believe it exists and still not worship it. 2 s different things. There is no god, that's why there simply no sufficient evidence it exists.
One of my main problems with the free will argument is God chucked people to different parts of the world and confused the languages after the Tower of Babel. Then we don't hear anything about these people again. He just ripped families apart and abandoned some of them in completely foreign places. Where's their free will? They developed cultures and new God's and yet will burn in the lake of fire for eternity for not loving and accepting a God that abandoned their ancestors long ago. They'll be punished for God's decision and no fault of their own. God gave free will but will punish those who don't use it how he wants. I have a uterus and suffer every month and am deemed impure by the very God who supposedly gave it to me. Did I have a choice? No. Neither do children born into abusive or impoverished families or with disabilities. Life is predetermined due to circumstances and they have no free will.
People should consider that if god created all things, he could not condemn good or evil without condemning himself. God having regret doesn’t change the punishment he deals out.
Huh... His example was in a song, and came to the opposite conclusion. "God is all-knowing, and God is all-seeing. So who do you think you are to change his mind? He already knows what you want, and decided that you didn't need it. So don't bother asking for cures or an answer, God is the one who gave you the cancer." "Dead" by Aurelio Voltaire, from the album Ooky-Spooky.
One reason my family gives to justify evil and suffering is that it's God's story and, therefore, he can do whatever he wants. The fact he created us on its own should be reason enough to praise him. So when I concede and go, okay, God is the creator and can do as he pleases. That doesn't make him a loving God. I'm a writer. I love writing stories and with a story, obviously, you need conflict for it to be interesting. My family has also used this as part of their argument. The difference between my stories and life is that my stories aren't real. The characters don't exist. There is no actual suffering taking place. And if I were a God and did actually have the ability to create sentient life, I wouldn't cause them to suffer. I'd want them to be happy and thrive in a peaceful world. I don't care about being worshipped as long as my creation is happy. For some reason, no one can wrap their heads around the idea of an all-powerful being not demanding worship and cannot conceive a world without suffering. Even when I point out heaven is exactly that, they still don't think it's possible. It's at a point where I don't know if they genuinely can't conceive it or if they can and just choose to ignore that since it doesn't fit with their own beliefs about God.
People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 sure :- ) magic in the sky said that. And I run the 100 m in 9.97 seconds and I talked to the g0d a few minutes ago. If you are skeptical now about a not even world record sprint, and about a chat YOUR g0d made, then you might understand atheism one day. grow up. Read. Think.
@@istvansipos9940 I feel for you man God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, and evil Spirits the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.
If when you die you go to heaven where all is beauty and light, why can’t we have that now? Why did he decide to make us suffer first. What about the free will of children with cancer or women who were raped? What about my free will when at 36 I developed bipolar disorder?
I think the argument for "there's more suffering in the world than joy" or whatever is that there's almost nothing which can bring us joy without an investment of greater suffering. The cute, comfortable clothes that make you feel good were made in a sweat shop overseas. The food that fills your belly and brings contentment was made by people trapped in underpaying jobs. The inventions we use to live in comfort are made from materials taken from the earth in many unhealthy and unsustainable ways. Even the money we make, which allows us to live happy lives, is only acquired through a disproportionate amount of work and effort, or else by cheating other people to take their wealth. There's very little a person can do that brings joy without also bringing suffering. When Matt says he doesn't think the world has more suffering than joy, it seems like he's overlooking the plight of laborers elsewhere.
God is the epitome of Holiness because He is sinlessly perfect, A sinner (liar, sexually immoral, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, thief etc) cannot be in the presence of God or else he will be utterly consumed therefore repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Yeah, but since GOD made us this way, he could simply forgive us our sins. Instead, he chooses to send those who are unconvinced of HIS existence to eternal torment. SUCH A LOVING GOD!
@@ianbraun271 Part of God's nature is Holiness so He cannot be in the presence of sinners forever He will utterly consume them with His majesty I hope you have a great year (rest of it) but remember if the world gets dark that Jesus is the light of the world and can comfort you in this life and the next. When you repent and Believe in Jesus you will only regret that you didn’t sooner. Romans 10: 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
I think the main issue with this sort of thinking is, 1. Its super small minded and unimaginative. You can say all you want that suffering makes you appreciate life more and that it grows you as a person but that's in our current paradigm. If you're god and you get to decide how the universe works, you can make it so that people just naturally grow as people and grow in character just by aging or by experiencing things. If you get to build the system from the ground up, and you choose to make it so that suffering is what makes people better or stronger, I don't think it's unreasonable to say you're not good. 2. It assumes this kind of karmic, well, everything happens for a reason and everything that happens to you is just to make you a better person, and, honestly, if anyone's willing to tell me that being trafficked at six years old was just to make me a better person or make me stronger, than I think they're too horrifically morally bankrupt to have a conversation with.
"He" could have made us with a more resistant skin if "He" is so powerful and capable of doing great things. But "He" didn't because "He" either doesn't care or doesn't exist.
“If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a Supreme Being” is a quote by George Carlin.
This looks like the results of an office temp with a bad attitude lol I miss Carlin
At one point I had that whole monologue memorized. What a legend.
Me too
Badass quote
Too botched to blame even an intern!
I really hope Mindshift Skeptic chooses to accept all future invitations to co-host The Line and I also hope The Line chooses to invite him back frequently. Such a great counterpart to Matt & Jimmy
I love Brandon! He's super-smart and articulate. I've been watching his channel lately: awesome stuff!
I agree. This show only needs matt, jimmy, this guy and Jmike. This is the absolute dream team. The cherry on top wound be the lady from ancient Atheist Experience shows what was her name? Something with T...Tracy I think. She was the BOMB - logic bomb, that is
I agree!
@@sebastepTracy Harris. I miss her in this setting.
@@sebastep Forrest also imo
He didn’t wish cancer on his worst enemy, his god however seems complicit into giving it to him.
Not to mention children.
Their bible says nothing happens without god knowing it. By extension, that means god allows everything to happen.
Justifying cancer to keep the belief going is wild.
In the atheistic universe man's hubris also causes suffering but there is no scientific basis to hope for a resolution. Only the true who can read hearts and raise the dead can guarantee justice
@@aservantofJEHOVAH7849whomever you're referring to does not exist.
@@Coach_BigMac I'm addressing the issue on its own terms you claimed that the atheist universe is superior to the theistic universe.on their respective terms so I'm addressing that claim not the respective premises that is a separate discussion.
@@aservantofJEHOVAH7849 no one claimed anything of the sort. Stop attempting to put words in people's mouths to make your own unwanted/unprovoked messaging.
@@Coach_BigMac the video is addressing the problem of evil in a theistic universe so you have to address what is consistent with a theistic universe on its own terms. The fact that all life and everything needed to sustain it was provided by JEHOVAH. And that he has the power to raise the dead is relevant to any evaluation of consistency as distinct to a discussion of the verification of premises.
If a person did a small fraction of what God in the bible has done, they would be charged for crimes against humanity
If a god did a fraction of what the god in the bible is alleged to have done, it would be charged for crimes against humanity. In fact, look at what the Christians did to Satan. Satan told the truth and the Christians have maligned that character's well.. good character. Satan told the truth to Adam and Eve and he's only linked to a handful of deaths (job's innocent family) and one could argue that he was following the Judeo-Christian god's commands. Contrast that with genocides and infanticides and human sacrifice just to name a few of this god's crimes against humanity. The differential is absurd.
not really since every American president since WWII is literally a war criminal and not a single one has ever faced any consequences for it.
Are they crimes because they hurt your feels?
They're crimes because they cause suffering
@@memecity9849 what's your definition of a crime?
Caller says he HATES SPOILERS, proceeds to SPOIL the entire movie "The Sixth Sense".
"He was the dead guy the entire time" spoils two movies in one shot 🙂 🪚👻
Old movie...
The wizard was just a man behind a curtain.
The movie is as old as I am. Who cares?
@@Johnmhatheist For the people younger than you are, you know, everything doesn't center around YOU.
My late wife died from massive brain swelling as a complication from an inoperable brain tumour. No "free agency" involved. Her sister once said to me, wracked with guilt that she was convinced my wife would still be alive if she just prayed more. Go ahead and tell me religion is harmless.
The guilt mechanism is one of the cruelest psychological techniques in religious ideologies.
People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 First, that's some grade A cherry picking there, well done. Second, sin is a made up concept to scare people into believing in a made up god. Third, you're dumb and your mother dresses you funny.
If you didnt tell that zealot where to shove a massive spikey log, you are a better person than me
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 lying and stealing can READILY be demonstrated to harm someone else though......
So your falacious argument is DOA
"Failure of imagination" is such a great way to put it. I've had these kinds of talks with a former pastor of mine, and he usually defaults to saying that we need to experience hardships because they make life meaningful and make our successes more satisfying. "All the best stories have dramatic conflict that the characters need to overcome!" But he doesn't get that he's thinking inside the box of the world as it is. We could have been created in such a way that we find consistency and mundanity more compelling than dramatic conflict, and we could have been created fully capable of appreciating the good things in life without any need for contrast with the bad things.
No, sir. All the most ENTERTAINING stories have dramatic conflict.
Precisely.
We could have been put into a universe in which we don't need to suffer hardships in order to appreciate things. We could just simply appreciate things fully without any pre requisite suffering at all.
If God is all powerful he could make that reality.
I wouldn't necessarily say we need to experience hardships themselves, but I will admit, more challenging situations and problems tend to be the most mentally engaging and stimulating ones, which can sometimes lead to a self evolution of sorts. But generally speaking, things really shouldn't be exceedingly painful or traumatizing in order to be rewarding in the end, as that just defeats the purpose.
It's kinda like the notion of physical exercise: tiny little tears in our muscles can lead to them healing 'n strengthening over time, but major injuries will undoubtedly leave permanent damage, so some challenge is okay as long as it's not heartwrenchingly stressful, or something like that.
@@Leith_Crowtherso that people can enjoy the dramatic document now let’s go to god I would say using your argument god is enjoying us suffering am I wrong? And also how would you even know he exist in the first place?
@@Sweeti924What is my argument for God?
Mindshift Skeptic really added a lot today. I never listened to him before. Very smart, logical and had great examples. When I was a little kid I made a prayer challenge to god…let every child born be perfect and healthy around the world for just 7 days in a row. Still waiting on that one and in my 60’s now. And I moved toward science and nature at age 4 right after that last prayer. My atheism has never wavered.
Atheism really makes us to be a better human because we rely on logic instead of make believe moral system
@@fancyAlex1993 Agreed. That, and we have to account for regulating our own actions based on how we interact with other people and the environment, here in this one life and one planet that we have.
Except for the part where he cited Alex fucking O’Connor for long held, old, classic, ancient ideas within moral philosophy, as though Alex came up with them. That was embarrassing
There were parts of this that truly hit home for me and many victims of trauma. When I hear anyone say that what happened to them made them stronger is absolutely not helpful support or empathy. Victims of crimes, just a portion of this, don't always become stronger. Even when they work hard to heal and cope with the damage, they may still have after affects for a long time. The question I would ask anyone, how do you explain to a child who is being abused, and they pray to god to stop it but god doesn't, only to hear someone say, it helped to make you stronger. That, in itself, is abusive. Religion itself can be very abusive. I Enjoyed this team very much, I watch your individual programs often. Thank you both.
Some humans suffer and die and that’s it.
So of course their suffering didn’t make them stronger or allow them to feel more pleasure.
That’s when a theist will pivot to “god has a plan” “how can we possibly understand” “maybe in the big picture this is saving lives somehow”.
Of course it’s easy to explain if there’s no god. Life’s not fair and there’s no intrinsic purpose.
Oh stfu, what if it is helpful to some people? Only speak for yourself.
The real thing that makes them stronger is the work they do to recover and heal, not being traumatized. I think people lack comprehensive communication and reasoning skills to effectively note the difference
It's also gaslighting because there is no way to know how "strong" you would have been without it. It's dishonest.
Some of us do feel stronger in the other end of it.. Waaaay on the other end, after having been at the absolute bottom., devastated by the pain and grief.. and then working and struggling for ages, even decades, to get back up and feeling good about life once more.
I saw no chance of that when I was suicidal. Now I know what it is like.
So, yes it is possuble to come out stringer, but not everyone does, it is not a default result, so it is not very good as a comforting thing at all. At best, knowing that some people actually do experience this, might bring some hope.
Personally, when talking to any victim.. I listen ( because noone really listened to me), and then it depends , sometimes all I can offer is a hug, sometimes a bit more. The one think I CAN offer, is to be available, and being a sounding board when that is needed.
Damn good to see these guys on the show together.
All Humans need to repent & Believe in Jesus as their God. Why? Because all Humans have sinned (lied, lusted sexually, stolen, dishonoured parents etc). Avoid the fires of Hell (justice of God) and choose Heaven today. Jesus defeated death by rising from the dead. GOD IS HOLY
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363No, YOU need to repent and worship Stendarr instead of whatever Daedric Prince you're preaching about.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus -
This is the quote that took me from a friendly agnostic to an angry atheist. Or disgruntled theist like some would say 😂
Still a sufficient argument against theism after all these centuries.
When I was Christian and heard this I would dismiss it with whatever default answer I had but when I stopped my bias I actually realize how good this quote is
Why would a person go on and defend such horrible things? Religious people are unbelievable
I can't fathom their mindset one bit. I see the character of the Christian god to be absolutely horrific yet the Christian I know thinks he can do no wrong. Spending an eternity with him in heaven is something that can't come soon enough. the Christian I know does have a nice presence, kind etc however it's highly likely that an eternal reward is the reason for her helping the homeless, helping them to rebuild their lives. I used to speak to her once a week about her beliefs and rational thinking and Skepticism is completely out of the window. The indoctrination she has gone through has made her blind to reality. It's so sad
So… if a child’s parents played “hide and seek” neglecting their kid for days, weeks, months, years, you’re ok with that? 😅
That point is very important. Believers tend to say god is a father for us but what you said is what I usually say, let’s compare it to a human father and you will quickly realize this god is a horrible monster!
@@Dan_C604
The horrible monsters are the horrible monsters who invented the gods.
I tend to be more direct. The god in the bible engaged in planetary level genocide because of the alleged sins of one species. I often ask theists what their children would have to do (in terms of sin) to destroy them with everything they know and gaslight them blaming their fault, as loving parent? I never got a reply to this question. Theists seem to be so detached from reality in their beliefs that the question shocks them.
@@harveywabbit9541prophet the best deceivers
Theists usually say that we didn't pray or believe in the right way which is why we got left playing hide and seek. Which makes me tell a hypothetical story.
Karen pushes little 9 year old lucy into a dry well. Lucys dad shows up and Lucy starts screaming at dad saying that he is worthless and that he won't be able to save her. She curses at him. Would the dad go read the paper or would he save his ungrateful child?
As someone who lost my mom to cancer when I was 21, I am disgusted at the notion that getting cancer benefits life (so long as you survive). What a grossly inappropriate thing to say
WHAT IS HE MEANING OF LIFE?
To have a relationship with God on earth so you can spend eternity together in Heaven. So, what pushes me away from God? Sin (lying, unforgiveness, sexual sins from lust, dishonouring parents, steeling, taking the Lord’s Name in vain etc) which leads to hell. But Jesus died on the Cross and rose from the dead to give you the ability to repent and Believe in Him as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363someone says their mom died of cancer and this is your grossly inappropriate reply. You are quite disgusting. Jesus said if you're a believer you can drink deadly poison and it won't hurt you. If you truly believe your BS scripture start drinking.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363if you are talking to imaginary beings, that’s called schizophrenia, I’d advise you to go to the hospital!
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363All those sins are a result of living in a world that we did not create. If God loses even one soul, then He's not God. If there is a sin problem the problem is with the one who created the possibility (inevitability) of sin. Revelations says God will destroy death once and for all at the end. Yet, Ezekiel says that when the fountain of life comes out of the new temple animal sacrifices will be accepted for the Prince and his people. The Bible is bullshit. If Jesus and the Bible were real we would all be screwed.
@@mikieemiike3979 There is sacrifice in the milennial kingdom but not afterwards for eternity as there is no more death
People sin from freewill and God provides forgiveness for them through Jesus . Jesus showed His love for you now you love Him back
Nice to see Mindshift on the show again.
I think this is the show he was on about a month ago. I hope they have him back though.
This is the first time I've seen him on this show, I've been watching his channel lately.
@@SaintD382 Go back about a month and you'll see the whole show. It was around the time when Brandon was about to go on that vacation(he did about a week of pre-recorded shows and this show right before he left). I looked in the description to see if it had a link to the original show, but I didn't see one.
I like your profile pic! Are you a Bad Religion fan?
@@johnzackarias11 Thank you, friend. Indeed I am. They’ve been my favourite band for close to 40 years now…and their logo makes a perfect pfp.
Why does God feel the need to make my dad go through cancer four times? Coming close to dying once wasn't enough? Why do you have to torture him and take away his cognitive functions for over a week leaving him to know that he can't get his brain to work correctly and experiencing more than half of the event? Did he have to go through that torture just so that he now has PTSD from it? Why did he have to take away all of his dignity and make him wither away after all the hard work he had put in to building up his muscles and exercising? Why is a torturing a man that still believes in him?
Of course I get your indignation, but I can’t help responding.. we all waste away eventually. What’s the point of any of it for anyone, cancer or not?
A theist can say your dad already achieved his purpose (maybe raising you), and this demise is the best one of the available possibilities. There’s always a way to squirm out of it.
If suffering is gratuitous then “god works in mysterious ways”
Of course for the atheist this is a much easier question to answer.
@darkstar4494 How would the theist demonstrate their beliefs? Is there good reason for a theist to push the points you made? It doesn't matter what someone is capable of saying. Can the theist demonstrate that their views are correct?
@darkstar4494 Could a theist sufficiently explain why it's acceptable for a God to give someone cancer 4 times and almost kill them? None of your examples are sufficient to me. This God is evil. Are your examples sufficient enough to demonstrate to you that the Christian God isn't evil?
@@darkstar4494 the end those are absolutely shity responses that they would be giving
@@coreymiller6717 you are asking different questions.
The theist explanation is sufficient and complete. It’s 100% airtight, which is easy to achieve when you can make up whatever you want.
Why did you dad have to get cancer 4 times? “god works in mysterious ways” or “it’s serving some other greater purpose that you can’t understand. Don’t worry, it’s all part of gods plan”. Done. Airtight.
No, there’s no reason to think it’s true, and no they can’t demonstrate it.
Of course it’s not satisfying intuitively when you’re the one suffering.
… then they follow up with “suffering in this life is a brief moment before spending eternity in paradise”. That should smooth everything over right?
For many, this is deeply reassuring. Beliefs can have a huge effect on how you feel.
7:30 Why can’t we fly? Why were we not born with the capacity to breathe underwater? How come those limits don’t inhibit our free will? How come removing the ability to be awful to each other would suddenly be a limit too far?
Good point!
Mysterious ways. That’s their Get Out of Jail Free card for all the holes in their fairy tale.😈
I know I always say how come I can't jump to the moon and back or walk through the wall cuz there are limitations and yet supposedly there is still free will. These believers don't seem to realize they're out of excuses.
What an enjoyable exchange of ideas, Jack was very pleasant.
I agree. Respectful, thoughtful, open in presenting biases, thoughts, doubts. One of the good guys
The caller brushed against divine hiddenness but then dismissed it saying God revealing himself would destroy free will. My question then is why did God hate Paul so much by giving him a vision of Jesus? What did God have against the disciples who saw Jesus in person? Adam and Eve walked around with God in the Garden. Abraham sat down with God for lunch. Jacob had a freaking wrestling match with God. Why was God so comfortable with removing all of those figures free will, and why did he change his mind now? Are we better than all those Biblical figures in that we don't deserve our free will taken away, but they did?
Not to mention Pharaoh
Yeah, it's the same thing as with the cancer discussion.
That being said, he did admit that he's not a Christian so we don't know if he believes that god has appeared to anyone..
It's still a greta point though, since Christians do argue that
If God revealing himself removes free will then Satan had NO CHOICE but to rebel against him.
Here's a technique I wrote, from my bag of checkmate tricks, anyone can copy, use, modify if they like:
"I have a question about this presuppositional, so-called "god"…
_…that you would have we, the supposed 'condemned and lost' unbelievers, to believe in…_
*Question:* Does this omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent presuppositional, so-called "god…"
…that you want us to believe in…
_…know…_
*…who* will go to "heaven"…
…and _who_ will go to "hell"…
*_👉 before_* 'he' "creates" each person?
*It's yes or no. It does / is a tri-omni "Superstar" or does not know a truthful future*
Which is it?
*Checkmate.*
Yep, it is a very weak argument. If God doesn't want to influence free-will then why was hell ever brought up either?
Excellent! Love the Matt and Brandon team! ❤❤
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
As an internal critique of the traditional god of classical theism and a good deal of the Abrahamic faiths, the problem of suffering is pretty damn hard to contend with. A truly omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent being would be able to create a world *entirely without suffering of any kind*, excessive or not. Period, end of story.
There is really no way out of this argument if god has all three attributes
Lol. You're assuming pain-free means better.
@@goldwhitedragon well I hope you live in pain every second
@@goldwhitedragon from what you are saying you said pain free isn't always the best so what is wrong for feeling pain? Hypocrite 😂😂
@goldwhitedragon Because all loving parents strive to introduce suffering to their children? A tsunami that drags children from their parents' arms and out into the sea to drown seems excessive. Almost 230,000 people died in the 2004 tsunami in Indonesia.
Brandon from Mindshift is such a delight, love him and his channel and you guys
Me too! His channel has some amazing content.
👍
A theist who truly believes that their god is the example of goodness is funny geese to me.
Yeah, it's a lot easier to justify a non-benevolent god than a benevolent one given the state of the world we live in.
Or an ambivalent God. Like, hey those cockroaches I made are having a tough time....weird.
@@aishabintabubakr4944 You make yourself lose credibility when you try to make excuses for a god(which you can’t even prove exists).🤡
Matt + Calm dude always = positive feels in the show.
It's Brandon from Mindshift. It's great that they are on together!
@@QuestionThingsUseLogic Yeah Brandon is really gifted. He is a natural at this. I have been a sub of his for quite a while
now and he always impresses me.
@@Omerta_1964 true! His incredible devotion and study of the bible initially has given him a fantastic base to work from! The best Atheists for Christians are those who really know what the bible says. I myself have gone onto studying and searching why the bible was written and who wrote it. My findings have totally satisfied my questions. Basically, it was to create slaves... mentally, emotionally, financially and practically. Good to be free though 🎉🎉🎉🎉
I appreciate Matt dropping a Hitch line at 30:38: "You still have all of the work in front of you..."
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
Brandon's channel is one of my new favorites.
Mine as well. I subscribed to him a few weeks ago and don’t regret it.
@norcodaev
I used that Bad Religion symbol as my profile picture before. Love Bad Religion's music!!!
samesies
MINDSHIFT for the win!👍
It is so refreshing to hear a good faith discussion from a theist caller - thank you Jack.
That is not to say you are right Jack.
I thought he said he was an atheist?
"You can't suffer in heaven... but tell me more about this free will".
Of this whole test of life that gets you there (or not).
Most people's afterlife concepts are internally nonsense when they propose a god that is their friend.
Oh, well we have free will to get to the place that God already knows we're going but the only way to get there is through free will. I hope that clears things up😂
Welcome to heaven did you like free will? Yes, it was nice being able "sin" like wearing clothing woven together of two different kinds of material and eating shrimp on occasion. Well there will be no free will here in heaven. Basically you'll be able to do a lot less things here in heaven and you're stuck here for eternity... enjoy😂
Paragraph 2 definitely clears things up.
Those who advocate that suffering makes us better … like the caller did some 12 minutes in … they forget that they believe that there exists a perfect being who could not be improved upon in any conceivable sense, and this being didn’t have to suffer for even a second for that and they believe it could not suffer anything even in theory. They need to remember what they’re actually defending.
Buddhism had a way around this, but Abrahamic religions do not. Sad that in trying to outdo all other religions, the abrahamic ones became the most contradictory and difficult to defend
I'm glad Matt and Brandon got together to coordinate their shirt color
The Atheist With Two Heads.
Free will, if it exists, exists *within* the framework of what is possible.
If evil isn’t possible, then free will still exists, it just doesn’t include the ability to do evil. Just like free will exists today, but doesn’t include the ability for humans to fly (without technological aid).
Why is free will preferable at all? I propose it's only good in the absence of perfection. Existence could be entirely curated, and still be special to the person experiencing it.
This guy is incredible bring him back please
The bald one? Wait, the one with facial hair? Or the atheist?
@@diogeneslamp8004They were referring to the guy in the maroon shirt.
@@Leith_Crowther
😜
@diogeneslamp8004 the one speaking English
"Is there free will in heaven" is a good question. Whatever comes after the judgement etc, is supposedly this forever paradise, new heaven and earth etc. Why?
What will be different from Adam and Eve? Why will it never again be that 'iniquity is found' in any being as it was with Lucifer in heaven (and I guess whoever saw fit to join him)? Why will no one who was supposedly 'saved' ever again choose 'wrong'? What will be different about human 2.0? And why didn't the all powerful god do _that_ to begin with?
The entire story of god and man as described by christianity seems more like a cosmic author discarding drafts as it tries to write the perfect book.
Or
Occam's Razor - we made it up. Like a young child makes up an imaginary friend, our young species created gods to explain what we don't yet understand and soothe our fears (including our fear of others who we must control or destroy to feel safe)
Mindshift is my new favorite YT atheist.
I am an early subscriber.
My main issue is very similar to "why not heaven now". If the god posited is an omni god, why would we need to grow at all? The result is already determined. Any "growth" is moot, a trick.
My free will to fly wherever I want is already limited. I don't think hurting others is a necessary thing 🤷♀️
People need to remember that the problem of suffering/evil is only a problem if you think God is all good. If God isn't actually all good, it's not a problem. So, the problem just points out that it doesn't seem like God is in fact all good.
Why does a loving god allow for unskippable advertising on TH-cam?
People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.
Its excellent that they gave this caller free rein to perfectly display the kind of perverse thinking rhat religion causes. It is exactly what people need to see and understand about the so called "good" xtians
He said god could take away evil and not take away free will doesn’t make sense to him??? How ridiculous 🤦🏽♀️ the amount of people that believe we have actually free will in this society is beyond me.
Jack there is a difference between a child born with bone cancer that is needless suffering vs someone driving a car and some other human or they themselves causes an accident and ends up paralyzed.
The theistic sycophants are either unable to comprehend it or are convinced that their delusional gaslighting makes it reality.
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 good thing there is no God, no heaven, no hell.
@@einyv God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, and evil Spirits the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I don't need further details. I used to believe but ultimately realized the reason I believed was ignorance, indoctrination and just lack of knowledge of other disciplines until I took religious studies, psychology, environmental psychology, sociology, chemistry, biology etc. Simply no sufficient reason to believe any god exists, the "supernatural", miracles etc.. All are not real.
I believe you think you experienced something. If you made you a better person great. I just don't think the reason is what you think of it because thousands of years and not a single piece of sufficient evidence to confirm any god exists. Religious book are claims not evidence. If any god exists and knows what would convince me of its existence but doesn't, only 2 possibilities exists. 1 it doesn't exist or 2 it doesn't care if I believe it exists, either way it's indistinguishable from a non existing God. Before you bring up free will that's a BS respons. I can 100% admit a god exists if given evidence and still free refuse to worship. (A perfect being wouldn't require it anyway).
My son got cancer at two and a half and died 18 cruel months later. Whose growth was that for? This caller makes no sense. Is there no other way to help us appreciate life?
I am sorry for your loss. And you’re absolutely right, claiming that extreme suffering and death is “growth” is cruel and inhumane.
God is the epitome of Holiness because He is sinlessly perfect, A sinner (liar, sexually immoral, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, thief etc) cannot be in the presence of God or else he will be utterly consumed therefore repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven.
I feel sorry for you. @@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363
@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 god creates men.
Men sin.
Therefore, god is responsible for sin.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363
You didnt referr to his question nor did you answer it, just put out the typical mantra. Lol
Jack, I do think you really do lose greatly (which I wish the hosts harped on,) when you said “ from my perspective, suffering made him better.” He then proceeded to say “well suffering is like having your heart broke from a girlfriend.”
1)Suffering has different definitions. Some may argue suffering is an unnecessary, overbearing, uncontrollable action that hurts someone. Some may say “breaking up with a girl IS NOT suffering.” Even if we agree that brekIng up is differing g (which again depends on the context), there might be different levels of sadness. Some levels are normal. You stub your toe, break your harm, end a relationship. Then we go higher, death of a loved one, financial debt that forced you to leave your home and beg for help, a day in court, facing an incurable disease, starvation, rape, genocide, political suppression, etc.
2)breaking up with a girlfriend may not be a teaching moment. We meet ppl at different stages, some matter more than others, some we forget. In fact, there are MANY ppl who dont recover after breaking up. Actions have different consequences for different ppl. Guys like Charles Whitman, son of Sam, Lee Harvey Oswald, Ted by day, school shooters, and Many more despicable ppl HAD relationship problems and those issues kept coming up for them-often convincing them to do unspeakable acts of evil. And to quote Boajck horseman and tuca and Bettie which some may absolutely agree with, “suffering didn’t make you better. It didn’t make you stronger. It JUST happened.”
disagree. the argument i was making that breakups can differ in their impacts. and what dosnt kill you may actually slowly eat you away. there are many ppl who dont move on from a failed romance, etc. And i was bringing up these individuals because they are in some cases a product of their environments and they (and many ppl who are simialr to them even if they dont commit crimes) may have simialr viewpoints. Afterall, how many ppl dont mature? dont learn? continue to double down? They may not be criminals but they are not acting as moral or as mature? YOu cited Nietz, id look at bojack horseman. A running theme of that show was that despite the repeated failures of the characters (mostly bojack) to have good relationships they usually tend to double down and act as the vitim.
love this cohost
People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.
I think that our understanding that eternal perfection and pleasure without any suffering somehow losing a certain value just reveals our own perceptions, with us stuck in this reality, that illustrates the absurdity of an all good god.
This is how theist calls should go. Intellectual honesty for the most part. Willing to listen and consider, not interrupting Matt and making him blow his stack.
Christianity is like as if you were suddenly hired to do a job that you never applied to and were given no instructions or directions, yet you will be fired if you mess up. Digging through, you find an outdated manual that kinda shows you what your responsibilities are, yet you look around and no one is doing what the manual says.
And then they fire you for not following the book, but not the other guys who have been there longer.
It has been less than a year now since I finally admitted to myself and those around me that Im an atheist. What seems to confuse the theists(read: Christians) I know, is that there has been a marked improvement in my happiness and outlook on life since then.
The reason for this is that with God out of the picture, there is only us. We are responsible for our circumstances. There's no greater plan. No lesson to be learned. The pain and suffering in the world is just what it is. Pain and suffering. It is up to us to reduce that. It is up to us to make the world we live in better. We already have, in so many ways, and can continue to do so. Without God, WE are the mightiest force of consciousness in existence(barring potential extraterrestrials).
And that can be terrifying to accept. Because it means if we fail, as individuals or as a species, there is nobody else to blame. We are the ultimate arbiters of our fate. This is the point that I think a lot of theists get hung up on. God is comforting in giving you a scapegoat when bad shit happens.
But if you embrace the fact that it's just us, it means that we are only limited by our own imaginations and ability to bend existence to our wills. Thats the most empowering idea I can think of and it's why I'm more hopeful as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian.
Amazing to hear! Thanks
This is one reason why Buddhism makes more sense to me. It teaches that we are responsible for ourselves.
I’m now imaging Stephen Fry imitating Jerry Seinfeld “What’s the deal with children and cancer?”
God, of course, would be played by Hugh Laurie, and would just stutter and mumble.
Matt, I just found Mindshift, & saw Barndon's show on God's Hypocrisy.
Wow.
I loved it. Well done.
What a team!!!!!
I really enjoyed this conversation
Wow MD and MS make a really great team, and that was an apparently genuine, honest albeit slightly muddled caller.
Great chat.
Jimmy you came in really loud at the end there!
if a world without suffering is potentially worse, why not introduce more suffering to make it better ? These people...
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Oof, I think you are responding to someone else. Why don't you try at the correct person next time ?
@@andrewwatts1997 You are the correct person
The issue at hand is sin and God’s nature of being just. Sin brings suffering (the pleasure is short term, and the suffering is long term-on earth and in hell forever). God brings Righteousness (may have short term suffering followed by long term pleasure- on earth and in Heaven).
If you love yourself repent of your sins (lying, hatred, unforgiveness, sexual sins, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, stealing, dishonouring your parents etc) & believe in Jesus for forgiveness of sins. (Jesus died on the Cross as a sacrifice and defeated death by rising from the dead)
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363
Gods nature of being just.
You scare me when you say that a being that is everywhere at any time and calmly looks in any direction to see people dying, drowning, burning and being eaten alive by parasites he created himself and does absolutely nothing. Such justice as, sending a group of people to kill others, Demanding a bear maul children because they made fun of a bald guy and allowing his angels to fornicate with teenagers as a sacrifice to the village.
You are worshipping a demented mob boss and telling me I am being silly for not doing so.
get help.
Great call!
Also, the immune system perspective metaphor is very unequivalent, because one, the cells don't have self awareness and don't "feel" pain, and two, the fact that an all powerful and all good designed simply couldn't have written the very rules and dynamics of how we deal with suffering is just a lack of imagination.
I don't know whether cells "feel" pain or have some form of awareness.
But then still it is a bad argument. An omnipotent god could have created an immune system that doesn't need all that chaos and destruction; or could have created beings that don't need an immune system even because they are never attacked by anything.
@@landsgevaer yeah, granted , that premise I put there is an assumption. We can't way for sure that cells don't feel what we call pain or suffering or have awareness, but I don't know of any evidence for them to have it, and we don't know of any experience of awareness or pain without a nervous system for the first and a brain for the latter, but I could be wrong. If he is willing to use the comparison proposing that cells feel pain and are aware as humans, he should prove that they do and are.
@@hazok4351 I don't know of any way to assess whether something has sentience. The fact that we only know of sentience to exist in some things-with-brains says zero about things-without-brains (i.e. a brain may be sufficient to have sentience, but that doesn't make it necessary). The brain is mostly adequate for something to be responsive, as far as I know; but plants and fungi and computers are responsive too, and I know no method of determining whether they have some form of sentience/awareness/consciousness.
But indeed, this is just a side-note that isn't meant to defend the caller. The burden is upon him to provide evidence, I fully agree.
Some of my favourite youtubers!
God is the epitome of Holiness because He is sinlessly perfect, A sinner (liar, sexually immoral, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, thief etc) cannot be in the presence of God or else he will be utterly consumed therefore repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 no-one can ever be in the presence of 'god' nor 'sin' because it's all fiction with no evidence for it's existence.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 and NO your god and jesus were not sinless and are not 'holy'. In fact the authors of the NT had this inside joke of bread that was made using 💩 and baked, fed to the starving chosenites and the term 'Bread of Life' was very simply stating jesus was full of 💩. That's the true meaning. So, in truth, saying *holy* 💩 is a reference to jesus...
The other good question to ask is why it's so important to Gawd that we believe in him. Why is _that_ Gawd's line in the sand? You can rape, murder, steal, destroy people's lives, but the ONLY "sin" that is unforgivable is that you are just not convinced that he exists. How stupid and self-aggrandizing is that?
God could have created us to believe in him. Why give us a brain that could make us disbelieve in him? It sounds like some cruel game on his/her part.
Yo what the hell man. I was planning on watching the 6th sense this weekend.
Amazing video as always. Note: the voiceover at the end was not audio balances with the rest. It came in super loud.
All Humans need to repent & Believe in Jesus as their God. Why? Because all Humans have sinned (lied, lusted sexually, stolen, dishonoured parents, unbelief etc). Avoid the fires of Hell (justice of God) and choose Heaven today. Jesus defeated death by rising from the dead. GOD IS HOLY
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 i don’t want to be part of your Bronze Age blood cult. Thanks
I get what Jack was saying, but there is still a central problem with a creator god, who is supposed to be "...(an) Absolute God, his omnipotence, his omnipresence, his omniscience, his omnisapience, and his omnibenevolence which together assure us that YHWH, has created the best possible world and he offers every person the best opportunity to worship and enjoy him forever.omnificent, omniscient, and omnipotent"
-Wiki The Five Omnis
He could have created a world that was the best of all worlds for all beings, but despite being credited these attributes, Yahweh, in his omnisapience still chose not to make that world.
It doesn't necessarily disprove the existence of Yahweh, but if he does exist, it sure makes him look like an omnijerk.
That deity as described is unworthy of respect. Worship is out of the question....
@@c.guydubois8270
IMHO any deity who demands worship doesn't deserve respect.
Why would an all powerful being require it.
Similarly, I have a problem wit blasphemy.
How can such a being be hurt by what I say?
I'm so insignificant in comparison to such a being I can't even think of an adequate analogy.
"it did for one wild moment cross my mind that, perhaps, those might not be the very best judges of the relation of religion to happiness who, by their own account, had neither one nor the other” (G.K. Chesterton)
Why couldn’t god have given us the “experience” without actually having to go through it. Why do some people have certain diseases but others don’t, do some people inherently need more hardship than others? There’s soooo much more problems with what the caller keeps trying to push
Why do people assume that going through hardships makes us better? That isn't always the case and arguably rarely is.
Matt, It would be great to see you on MindShift’s podcast. Do you think you will be a guest in the future? 🙏🙏🙏
I personally agree with Matt that the problem of evil or suffering is not a good argument for or, particularly, against a god. While I'm an atheist, one concept of a god that I can at least entertain is the one in which that god is evil. I think an evil god far better explains our reality than an all-loving god. I will maintain that the problem of evil / suffering is pretty much a nail in the coffin for me with respect to Christianity.
I also find it exceedingly more interesting and meaningful if we are an "accident" of the universe. When I think of the countless fortunate events over the course of billions of years that led to the propagation of our species and us as individuals, I'm absolutely blown away. Just image how many individuals had to procreate and pass on their genes to get to the next generation, and the next generation, and the next generation, and the next generation, and so on and so on for millenia to get to you. It is absolutely incredible. The alternative is that we are just the product of the ejaculate from a sadistic, supernatural being's wet dream. Put here for its' entertainment.
It’s works fine as an argument against an omnibenevolent omnipotent god. I’m not aware of any Christians that believe god is evil.
Edit: oh sorry, you did say it’s a nail in the coffin for Christianity. I agree.
What a healthy polite conversation you've got here..
As an atheist all though I do not believe in an afterlife if one turned out to be true I would not have a problem with it.
But this is in one condition if no one suffers in that after life and people have all bad traits and tendencies removed from them.
This caller is absolutely amazing in his speculations. His knowledge is profound and appreciable.
Our pain receptors are there to protect us. Matt used touching a hot surface as an example. If we didn’t have the pain receptors, we have. We would do more damage to ourselves. We may not move fast enough away from the heat source, so instead of a small blister, we would get third-degree burns or worse. So a low pain threshold is evolutionary advantageous. Just saying. 🙂
"He" could have made us with a more resistant skin if "He" is so powerful and capable of doing great things. But "He" didn't because "He" either doesn't care or doesn't exist.
Why does that pain have to last?
Why does that damage have to last?
Why can't it simply be momentary, we acknowledge it was painful and therefore dangerous, and then we immediately heal up and move on with our lives?
@@zachrichardson5581 I suppose it depends on the damage. Sometimes the pain is only fleeting. I wouldn’t say any pain lasts. Maybe if you don’t get it treated it will take longer to heal and maybe even become infected, but that’s up to you.
@@zachrichardson5581why can’t we grow back limbs like lizards? If god made the lizards and made us, why didn’t he give us this ability?
@@Steve-Crosssome ppl have uncurable chronic pain. What is the “lesson” to learn from that pain?
Why does God always honor the freewill of rapists over the freewill of their victims?
That child didn't want to be raped, and presumably cried out for help. And yet God denies the child's will to escape. And if the child survives, they are plagued by a host of other psychological traumas that their freewill cannot exorcise, such as nightmares and PTSD for years to come or even permanently. How they wish that they could be free of this psychological burden, and yet God does not honor their will to forget.
I've always been under the impression that we have pain so we don't cut ourselves into threads in the name of fashion 😅 12:44 and by the way I enjoyed listening to the new guy 🎉
Some ignore the pain and do exactly that
@@riffhammeron true
@@riffhammeron
Some like the pain.
The problem of evil isn't a situation to negotiate that you can go back or forth on to solve the problem. It's a response to a claim that god is good. There wouldn't be a "the problem of evil" argument if the god claim was that god is evil or doesn't care, or there isn't a god at all.
Child leukemia is more rational in a world without a god, or a god that is evil or is completely impartial/hands off to human suffering. The latter arguments would lend to the idea of a god not worthy or worthwhile to worship.
Our immune systems are not great! My immune system is overreacted causing me to have allergies. I get incredibly itchy teeny tiny blisters all over my hands and feet because of allergies. Some people's immune systems are over react and they literally destroy that person! But you've got psoriasis and MS. Then you have the immune system not being good enough and allowing cancerous tumors to grow and develop and take over a person's body until it slowly kills that person. Our immune systems are not great and this is an absolutely terrible terrible example.
Yeah, our immune systems are a prime example of evolution. They work _just well enough_ to improve our chances at survival, but not well enough to really be good.
If someone intentionally designed our immune system the way it was, when they had literally no physical constraints or material limitations or resource limitations... then either that designer is as dumb as a brick... or it really doesn't like us.
loved Brandon on the show, he needs his voice amplified. His Mindshift channel is the most effective and entertaining form of clarity therapy you can find.
Until you prove your god exists, I'm not interested in discussing what this nonexistent entity can or can't do & why.
Exactly. First things first.
@@diogeneslamp8004
I would say the first thing would be proving a deity existing is possible.
Weird that nobody has ever done that.
@@Diviance
It is funny how so many put the cart before the horse, taking existence for granted. I imagine it’s a splash of cold water in the face for them to be asked to do the thing properly.
Great discussion with my two favorites on TH-cam right now! I'm a newer deconstructionist!
What about the worm that burrows in the eyes of its victims and blinds them... is that the same as breaking up with a boyfriend? Apologists for the problem of evil are not just failing in their imagination of what a "god" can do... they are failing in heir understanding of what it means to suffer since they have never actually suffered other than the "strife" of being the rich and privileged.
What lesson does the mother who risked her life and permanently altered her body learn from the death of that child?
They never think about that even once
Although I don't agree with everything the caller said, he was one of the smartest, most honest and aware callers I've heard on this show. I think the lack of outburts from Matt reflects that. It made for an interesting discussion.
Maybe if he hadn't circled around to the all or nothing strawman that they addressed multiple times. That wasn't smart or honest.
@@cambriaofthevastoceans6721 Yea, I was waiting for Matt to fly off the handle. That's one thing I really liked about this convo, think Brandon's demeanor and the way he answered the questions led to a less aggressive conversation. Matt kinda went with the flow.
It concerns me sometimes when I watch this channel how Theist may walk away with the wrong impression of Atheists or Agnostics. Matt is a really bright, wise and knowledgeable guy. Sometimes his remarks and the way he responds isn't exactly the most polite though(rightly so at times).
That just means that most other theists are even more irrational or dishonest in their arguments.
Siberia has the most pleasant weather. Compared to other places that have worse weather. But you still don't go on a summer holiday there.
@@slippyC73 Agreed. Matt is super respectful and open minded, but when people are unreasonable and try to turn a discussion into a monologue, you can't blame a guy for being impatient. And personally I love hearing him say the things I wish I could say to people when we have similar conversations. But when they're co-workers or family members, sometimes you have to pick your battles and bite your tongue.
@@cambriaofthevastoceans6721 For sure, but where most callers on this show avoid questions and deflect everything being said, this guy answered questions and addressed the points being made. It shows that even if someone brings flawed arguments, there can still be a pleasant (and potentially eye-opening) discussion.
This caller and I are on the same page. To believe in the Christian god you would have to have, no chronic sickness or pain, no ability to violate the consent of others, no hunger or thirst, no depression, no loneliness, and no lack of shelter at the bare minimum.
Free will is such a BS response for needless suffering or for God in general. I could be given the evidence i need to believe it exists and still not worship it. 2 s different things. There is no god, that's why there simply no sufficient evidence it exists.
One of my main problems with the free will argument is God chucked people to different parts of the world and confused the languages after the Tower of Babel. Then we don't hear anything about these people again. He just ripped families apart and abandoned some of them in completely foreign places. Where's their free will? They developed cultures and new God's and yet will burn in the lake of fire for eternity for not loving and accepting a God that abandoned their ancestors long ago. They'll be punished for God's decision and no fault of their own. God gave free will but will punish those who don't use it how he wants. I have a uterus and suffer every month and am deemed impure by the very God who supposedly gave it to me. Did I have a choice? No. Neither do children born into abusive or impoverished families or with disabilities. Life is predetermined due to circumstances and they have no free will.
He's so dense
Mindful S. What an excellent addition to the show, very bright guy. This caller needs a crutch, without a physical problem.,so that leaves a ....
The surprise I had when this caller actually asked how Matt and mindshift are doing. Most theist callers will just immediately jump in
People should consider that if god created all things, he could not condemn good or evil without condemning himself. God having regret doesn’t change the punishment he deals out.
Brooo! I had no idea that Brandon goes on The Line! Nice to see it!
Huh...
His example was in a song, and came to the opposite conclusion.
"God is all-knowing, and God is all-seeing. So who do you think you are to change his mind? He already knows what you want, and decided that you didn't need it. So don't bother asking for cures or an answer, God is the one who gave you the cancer." "Dead" by Aurelio Voltaire, from the album Ooky-Spooky.
One reason my family gives to justify evil and suffering is that it's God's story and, therefore, he can do whatever he wants. The fact he created us on its own should be reason enough to praise him. So when I concede and go, okay, God is the creator and can do as he pleases. That doesn't make him a loving God.
I'm a writer. I love writing stories and with a story, obviously, you need conflict for it to be interesting. My family has also used this as part of their argument. The difference between my stories and life is that my stories aren't real. The characters don't exist. There is no actual suffering taking place. And if I were a God and did actually have the ability to create sentient life, I wouldn't cause them to suffer. I'd want them to be happy and thrive in a peaceful world. I don't care about being worshipped as long as my creation is happy.
For some reason, no one can wrap their heads around the idea of an all-powerful being not demanding worship and cannot conceive a world without suffering. Even when I point out heaven is exactly that, they still don't think it's possible. It's at a point where I don't know if they genuinely can't conceive it or if they can and just choose to ignore that since it doesn't fit with their own beliefs about God.
I like this guy, he's on the path, but he's not there yet. Hope he keeps asking questions like this.
People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 sure :- )
magic in the sky said that. And I run the 100 m in 9.97 seconds and I talked to the g0d a few minutes ago.
If you are skeptical now about a not even world record sprint, and about a chat YOUR g0d made, then you might understand atheism one day.
grow up. Read. Think.
@@istvansipos9940 I feel for you man
God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, and evil Spirits the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.
So 30 minutes in and we got
"Suffering is good for you because god works in mysterious ways."
How absolutely brainwashed this poor guy is.
If there's no suffering or sin in heaven, yet we have free will, then god could have made a world without suffering.
Very good call
If when you die you go to heaven where all is beauty and light, why can’t we have that now? Why did he decide to make us suffer first. What about the free will of children with cancer or women who were raped? What about my free will when at 36 I developed bipolar disorder?
I think the argument for "there's more suffering in the world than joy" or whatever is that there's almost nothing which can bring us joy without an investment of greater suffering.
The cute, comfortable clothes that make you feel good were made in a sweat shop overseas. The food that fills your belly and brings contentment was made by people trapped in underpaying jobs. The inventions we use to live in comfort are made from materials taken from the earth in many unhealthy and unsustainable ways. Even the money we make, which allows us to live happy lives, is only acquired through a disproportionate amount of work and effort, or else by cheating other people to take their wealth. There's very little a person can do that brings joy without also bringing suffering. When Matt says he doesn't think the world has more suffering than joy, it seems like he's overlooking the plight of laborers elsewhere.
This guy Jack, comparing CANCER to HEARTBREAK.
God is the epitome of Holiness because He is sinlessly perfect, A sinner (liar, sexually immoral, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, thief etc) cannot be in the presence of God or else he will be utterly consumed therefore repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Yeah, but since GOD made us this way, he could simply forgive us our sins. Instead, he chooses to send those who are unconvinced of HIS existence to eternal torment. SUCH A LOVING GOD!
@@ianbraun271 Part of God's nature is Holiness so He cannot be in the presence of sinners forever He will utterly consume them with His majesty
I hope you have a great year (rest of it) but remember if the world gets dark that Jesus is the light of the world and can comfort you in this life and the next. When you repent and Believe in Jesus you will only regret that you didn’t sooner.
Romans 10: 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
I think the main issue with this sort of thinking is, 1. Its super small minded and unimaginative. You can say all you want that suffering makes you appreciate life more and that it grows you as a person but that's in our current paradigm. If you're god and you get to decide how the universe works, you can make it so that people just naturally grow as people and grow in character just by aging or by experiencing things. If you get to build the system from the ground up, and you choose to make it so that suffering is what makes people better or stronger, I don't think it's unreasonable to say you're not good. 2. It assumes this kind of karmic, well, everything happens for a reason and everything that happens to you is just to make you a better person, and, honestly, if anyone's willing to tell me that being trafficked at six years old was just to make me a better person or make me stronger, than I think they're too horrifically morally bankrupt to have a conversation with.
"He" could have made us with a more resistant skin if "He" is so powerful and capable of doing great things. But "He" didn't because "He" either doesn't care or doesn't exist.