Star Trek Retro Review: "The Q and the Grey" | Q Episodes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ต.ค. 2023
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#startrek #startrekvoyager - บันเทิง
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Aw, that baby Star Fleet uniform has to be the best thing about this ep. Nothing like writing an entire ep to sell merch 😂
The real missed opportunity here is no one called it the "Q-nion army".
What about the Colonel Q? Qolonel! Yeah that one is just about impossible to pronounce. But Q was a Rebel so it kinda doesn't make any sense that he would be a union soldier.
I was about to say the same thing, but then add, "because this episode doesn't _deserve_ that portmanteau."
@@DeathBYDesign666 Well, his side fights for individual liberty, if I understood correctly? Would be weird to fight on the slavers' side. Also he perceives himself as the good guy in general, so in this setting it would make sense for him take on the mantle of the liberator. (On the other hand he played the Sheriff of Nottingham in the Sherwood episode... On the third hand that one was a game to him while this is war.)
the "i'm not talking about the puppy" line is all in the delivery, its so camp
The worst thing about The Q and the Grey is its not even the worst episode in Season 3.
There's very few things worse in this existence than Voyager's third season. *Simpsons-style shudder*
Piller's exit was really felt hard. Once Taylor left they sort of found their feet again, but the characterisation was always more hollow (except for Seven and the Doc) and the plots more perfunctory from then on.
@@patrickdodds7162They didn't really pick up momentum until they introduced 7 of 9, the Doctor got his mobile emitter and that helped his character grow but they didn't really explore that until season 4. But from then on the winning formula was the Doctor and 7 show. And dammit I really wanted Picardo to come back for Picard, they could have done a throwaway line of him introducing an aging program to explain his aging but I really wanted to see them reunited.
Voyager has often earned the derisive nickname "Where Potential Goes to Die," rightly so I'm afraid, and nowhere is that nickname more earned than in this episode. Because you know what? This premise is actually pretty strong! Quinn's death causing mass chaos in the Q Continuum, leading to a civil war? Janeway being unwillingly drafted into a diplomatic role to try and end this war that she inadvertently helped to start? That's actually pretty compelling! And it's a natural result from the events of the last Q episode! I don't even hate the American Civil War cosplay, as it's an interesting extension of the "gas station in the middle of nowhere" visualization from 'Death Wish'.
What if, instead of the weird perv-y vibes of the Janeway Baby Momma plot, Q was instead desperate to recruit Janeway as a mediator between the two sides? That might require a little plot gymnastics to justify but hey, it's something! It'd let us explore the viewpoints of Colonel Q, Lady Q, and Regular Q in a lot more detail! Maybe you could even use the whole civil war premise to draw some parallels with American history! Get some THEMES up in there!
But no. As with a lot of Voyager episodes, a good premise is stomped upon by a severe lack of creative vision from those at the top.
*EDIT: Also, Lady Q's delivery of "I'm not talking about the puppy" is incredible, iconic, delightful, the only good thing to come out of this episode
Janeway preventing a Q Civil War would be like a cross between "Redemption" and any other dumpster fire.
Unfortunately, it's unclear why Quinn's death would cause chaos. He'd been sealed up in an asteroid for centuries so it's not as if the other Q missed him. Why would they even *know* he was dead? (Yes, I guess they are technically omniscient.)
@@TheBlackSaint If I had to give an explanation, I'd say that Quinn's death reminded all the Q that it is possible for Qs to die, and several billion years of interpersonal frustrations have reemerged now that violence is a possible solution.
@@TheBlackSaint Quinn's death emboldened some other Q who felt discontent by the continuum to start acting on it. I think there's a decent kernel here. That injustices can exist even in the supposedly omnipotent and omniscient society of the Q is interesting. I think they could have done a neat reversal of roles with Janeway's mediation serving to test the Q and make them confront that they're not as perfect as they believe themselves to be. To bad we got this instead.
@@michaelramon2411 That's plausible, except that in "True Q" it's implied the Continuum routinely executes rogue Q that left the Continuum to have kids or something
"Paris magically teleports himself behind Colonel Q" - totally believable after he achieved warp 10 in the previous season.
Honestly, my favorite line is when B'Elanna tells Lady Q off and Lady Q says that she has always liked Klingons because they are so spunky. Best part in the episode. 😂 😂😂 I love the irony.
Lady Q/B'Elanna slash when? 👀👀👀
This is the episode where Q offers to send the Voyager back home, and Janeway tells him no thanks. Like, I know this show never handled its premise very well, but they usually at least paid lip service to the idea that they were trying to get back home. This episode basically says, "Home? What home? My home is the status quo, which never ever ever changes."
Idea for a bonus Q retro episode: Trelane. Not really Q, but an omnipotent trickster character nonetheless. I think Trelane is a non-canon Q in one of the novels.
Q Squared by Peter David.
I always wanted Mr. Campbell to return as Trelane, now all grown up and a responsible adult with an annoying little brat of his own...
...said annoying little brat being Q.
😉😁
Yes!
What if Trelane is Q's child? I mean, I know TOS was 100 years earlier, but as Q was pointing out to Picard in "All Good Things", thinking chronologically is a limitation. So why couldn't the Q continuums "Daycare" be located in the distant past, when fewer people know about the continuums existence? I mean yeah, its a retcon, but why not? It would be the easiest thing for the continuum to stash their kids in the past.
I actually really like all of the old cosmic entities from the original series. The fact there were a few of them and that this seems to be a prevalent form of life in the Star Trek universe as always kind of interested me. I think that the idea of all of the gods being real in Star Trek is pretty interesting too. and even though the ancient aliens thing is pretty derided nowadays I think it’s done very well in Star Trek.
15:00 - The scene doesn't focus on Harry because why change the premise of the show. We never focus on Harry.
2:50 Susie Plakson! The female version of Jeffrey Combs! Just pops up again and again!
I'm sorry, but I loved the Baby Q scene at the end so much that I'm willing to overlook the rest of the episode. I'm a big Q Jr. fan, so there you have it.
Perfectly reasonable.
John D actually wrote a novelized follow up to this episode where he has to team up with data and Picard to stop the end of time. It was very weird and had several redundant framing devices but I liked it. I thought Q2 spat on it
I have been waiting for Steve to get to this episode ever since he started reviewing all the Q episodes. The only thing I remembered about it was the anticlimactic "finger touch" scene so I I had a feeling Steve would roast it hard and he did not disappoint, LOL. 😂
The best thing about this episode is Lady Q calling Voyager a "rickety barge" with her "half-witted crew".
Just a big fan of Suzie Plakson! Andorian, Klingon, Vulcan, Q,... doesn't matter!
@@Insightfillsame! If she's gonna be in an episode, I'm so there for it. Kind of like Jeffrey Coombs.
Suzie Q is the best thing about this episode in general.
Having a baby _always_ makes non-committed relationships better.
"THIS will save our relationship!"
Maybe they should have just tried out having a Q puppy first, then decide if they're ready for kids?
Bingo square: “Relationship broken! Add more people …”
I wasn't too fond of the Voyager finale, but am still grateful they didn't find yet another way to shoehorn Q in there.
I just watched this and I couldn’t believe that Janeway wouldn’t have the baby in exchange for getting the crew home, and bringing back all the dead crewmen (even Seska). I would have done it in a minute.
Edit: When Janeway walks over to the other Q camp and the dude says they are going to end the war quickly, the fact that her first question wasn’t “How?” just sealed it for me she is an awful captain. They are in the middle of a literal war and she thinks that dude is gonna just stop shooting and chat over tea to work stuff out? C’mon Janeway…
Are we applying human norms to a fictional alien race? In Star Trek, the federation often takes time to “chat over tea”… so while dumb, seems within character.
Wow, I didn't even know this episode even existed until now. Thanks for enlightening me? One question--well, a lot of questions, actually, but this is the important one: if the Q are omnipotent to the point that they can pretty much do anything, why do they have to mate like humans to have children? Even if it is just magic fingertip touching. Also, "Paris magically teleports himself behind Colonel Q--" That made me laugh so much.
Possibly the warp 10 experience has given Tom Q powers.
But it's difficult to handwave writing as bad as this.
Q works as a concept when you don't consider what a group of gods existing actually means. It's like building a big light-up sign with an arrow pointing to how ill-concieved an entire race of gods is. It worked when John Delacy was just a goofball who was so bored with his godhood he stepped down into our reality to play with us like toys. But come on, how would people ascend to this level of existence when apparently all of them are mentally children?
I good thing about this episode is that it sets up the next Q episode with the kid Q a teenager, and I really like that one.
When I think of this episode, I think about how long Delancy had to be in the makeup chair for that dumb tattoo joke, and how much that was really not worth it.
Maybe this is a minor nitpick, but the thing that got me about this episode was that the Q had weapons that could harm each other which were visually portrayed as 1860s firearms because of the Civil War thing, which was fine I guess, but then apparently it was the case that humans could effectively wield those weapons, which just didn't seem right to me.
If these "muskets" actually had the power of supernovas firing one would instantly vaporise every human in the vicinity.
The end of the episode had forgotten the beginning.
@@alanpennie. The problem here is that you are thinking of the Star Trek universe how we perceive the universe, not how it is. The supernovas were something(?) physically manifesting in our reality, not a gun that shoots supernovas. I think that would be akin to having someone run up with a heavy cartoon style fuse bomb and dropping it at the feet of the enemy and which would occasionally blow themselves up. The wielding the weapons part is a bit weird though, but them being harmed by firing it would only make sense if the guns exploded in some kind of catastrophic structural failure every time they shot.
There is also the silly notion that a weapon to kill a Q needs to be a large explosion. A paintball won’t hurt a human much, but .22 would and a 45 would even be worse. In an era of phasers and photon torpedos the idea of the weapon needing to damage to the user to fire against an enemy makes even less sense.
Loved that bit at the end speculating how the voyager writers would ruin other franchises if given the chance
I liked the banter between B'Elanna and Lady Q. The snapping fingers and not as eternal as she thinks association with Q make me howl. :D
If Q wanted a hybrid baby to have the best of humanity, he should have knocked up Picard. He's a Q... Picard being a man should had been a very tiny obstacle. This would had been a better plot to get a Jean Luc arc where he gets over his fear of intimacy than what they did for Season 2 of Picard.
9:44
So it would be fair to say that Steve thinks Q Junior was poorly conceived and Q2/Quinn was superbly executed?
Only weaklings apologize for puns.
I slways thought the Revolutionary War would make a better visualization for the Q War then the Civil War.
Q wouldn't work as Washington.
Maybe Nathanael Greene but how many people know who Greene was or how he looked.
Suzie Plakson in a Starfleet uniform was the best part of the show, and calling Paris "Helm Boy".
I really love all your reviews. Especially those of episodes you really like.
And especially especially the ones of episodes you loathe.
👍🖖
I always thought the long-term storyline for the Q was to have them ask Barclay to become one of them to give them the frailty and his drive to overcome it along with his humility from being thought of as lowly most of his life. In essence he helps infuse the humanity they so often wanted--and he accepts! I thought that would have been a great way to dovetail both storylines of the Continuum and Reg.
Based on the episode where Barclay gets alien knowledge beamed in his brain, I think Barclay would have become just as arrogant as Q, if not moreso.
@@rexmundi2986 Beyond taking the Enterprise on joyride to meet the Cytherians (who reprogrammed his mind), Barclay didn't do anything too aggressive beyond making at pass at Counselor Troi. A good one.
Wow, I'd entirely forgotten this episode!
Although I love your videos, I don't think I needed the reminder that it existed. Can we all forget it again now?
Same, here. I didn't remember this one at all. And I now see that was a good thing.
It would have been funny if they would have let them keep the muskets and they bolted one to the front of the ship as a weapon of unimaginable power. Taking out a few dozen borg cubes with one musketball would have been hilarious. 😂
Just when you thought The Q and the Grey was the low point Q episode, we're getting Q2 next week!
Thank you for your review of this episode. It saves me from having to suffer through it a second time. When this episode is on I avoid it. There are only two good parts to this episode, the first is they did a better makeup job on John DeLance the second is watching the credits at the end. I'm surprised Q didn't think of Amanda Rogers in the episode True Q (Olivia d'Abo) She a lot cuter than Janeway and has more compassion. Thanks again.
I also always thought it was another weird example of the Voyager writers wanting a female captain but not knowing how to write one and that the idea that Q - omnipotent, amoral imp - suddenly wants a BABY with her was an egregious "oh because we have a woman, now Q can be in love with the captain the way he always BUT we can introduce BABIES to the storyline!" Without it making any sense at all as you point out perfectly.
And then the idea that the Q Civil War is being "represented" this way but it can't actually be whats happening (Q can't actually have been wounded by a musket!), just this is what Janeway perceives, completely falls apart when the crew arrives and are actively using those weapons too. Now it's LITERAL, not metaphorical, and the cleverness just evaporates into bafflement.
Thanks, as always, for such an entertaining and well-written review! Almost makes episodes like this worth it. Almost.
In my experience, I learned something important for which I can thank STAR TREK: VOYAGER: You can be a fan of a media franchise without having to like or consume every installment of that franchise.
After watching three and a half seasons of VOYAGER, waiting for it not to suck, I stopped watching, and I have never revisited the show. I also have not watched the entirety of any subsequently produced STAR TREK TV program. And I'm okay with that.
Ah yes the episode with the famous "Cause mine's BIGGER" line
1:06 ---- Come on Shives! This is low hanging comedy fruit that I expect you to hit out of the park ---- It's clearly Q-Hefner.
The ruthlessness of Voyager like "I hate Voyager but don't you talk bad about it" outside of Trek seem like the type of fan😂😂
Voyager is the David of crap to TNG's Goliath of quality. In one episode it eviscerates seven or so years of wonderful world building with Q and the Continuum. Even the Borg and Barclay held out longer on Voyager before their characters were mangled by the post-Michael Piller years of this show.
The Continuum once voted to just take away Q's powers, they are so all-powerful they even how power over one another. But sure, they fight a cosplay war with conventional weapons, why not
I knew what the follow-up Hugh Hefner joke was going to be, but you still delivered it in an unexpected way!
The call-back about why Q don't normally couple with each other was also masterfully done. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "even" instead of "uneven" when complaining about power dynamics before.
I don't have much to add to the review, because you summed-up the disappointments quite succinctly. I will add that I absolutely despise that they had Q say the American Civil War "ended oppression" for humanity. It's offensively ahistorical. (And, a much bigger sin for some Trekkies, also contradicts the fictional chronology for humanity!)
My opinion of this episode is that I didn't even notice that it was exceptionally bad since you pointed out all these things, and that says a lot about what a trudge Voyager is.
An interdimensional being walks into 10 forward on the Enterprise. Apparently, there's a queue at the bar.
I love it when you roast a bad episode, you should do more Voyager Episodes hhh
I did enjoy the Female Q/B'Elanna exchange in the episode.
The lady Q is the same actress who played the klingon to Alexander rushinko.....worfs son!
Looks like the writer's room got their much-needed enemas. So glad they shared.
@0:15 but what if you have seen the episode but don't want to know what happened in it?
Though Q does show how everybody should have treated Neelix; "Hey, bar-rodent!"
Tom Paris can sneak up on an omnipotent being… just another day in Starfleet 😉
When I was a kid and saw this episode, my head canon, desperate to make this episode good, declared that Baby Q was Trelane. And there was no convincing me otherwise. Eventually, I realized that I was needlessly contaminating a classic episode, "The Squire of Gothos," with this nonsense.
Speaking of which - are you thinking of including "The Squire of Gothos" as an honorable mention in the Q series?
I'm not reviewing "Squire of Gothos" in this batch of Q episodes, but I am gonna review it at some point, for sure.
The thing that got me was they already had a Q with the traits of humanity established, Amanda Rogers from TNG episode True Q, wonder what side of the conflict she was on
Wow your summery of the episode makes it seem way better than I remember it to be. It’s one of the most memorable episodes of star trek voyager, right up there with threshold for many of the same reasons. Also, are you on tumblr?
Q gets to be such friends with Janeway and crew, I have to wonder why they never asked him for a quick ride home.
I don't know if you take requests: could you weigh in on the first choice for Janeway, Genevieve Bujold, who infamously quit halfway through on her second day. Her early dailies are on TH-cam, and I'd be interested in your opinion on her take on the character.
About the only good thing about this episode is that it set that events in previous episodes had actual consequences. But that's it, and honestly it really only managed that by accident imho.
Savage. Can't blame you for your well articulated critiques, though. 🎉😢
Hey, a certain Lee statue was recently cut up and melted. Progress!
8:41 ...This made me laugh so hard! On-point, Steve. LOL!
I mean, why would she hook up with original Q when she already saw what that other Q could do with his hand??
Wait - Q wants to have a baby with Janeway to add compassion to the offspring? I mean... does Q ever actually take a look at her before choosing?
This is the second episode that made me ask why they didn't ask Q to send them home.
This is an episode I actually remember from my original viewing of Voyager, which I've never rewatched since it first aired.
I rather enjoyed Q dressed as a Union officer but I'd completely forgotten the weird creepy plot.
You articulated why I never liked this episode in ways I could never articulate. Thanks for the smarty brain speak! 😁
I think I liked the episode when I first saw it... BUT I WAS A DAMN KID!!!
The civil war setting did nothing for the the story, but Tuvac makes quite the dashing Contraband!
"Like Anson Mount's a Daddy... or I'm a Daddy."
- Steve "Anson Mount" Shives
The cornfield sounds like Antietam
Love the "I can do a face tat too" line :)
Following Future's End was always going to be a challenge. I rather liked The Q and the Grey. But, I liked Threshold, so...... 🤷♀
Couldn't be as bad as lost in space - the great vegetable rebellion
you are too kind to this episode
He is not credited as Qolonel?
'Could have been worse. He could've turned Janeway into Maid Marian.
I forgot how much they used to pack into a single episode!
Having the Q continuum represented as a dusty crossroads was such a good idea! I just don't see the US civil war being a great way of communicating anything about the Q?
Fun review, daddy Steve (you sly dog). Say high to Anson at the next daddy convention.
The producers watched Gone With the Wind while high on coke and ten minutes later this script was ready.
Would it be too much to ask for a Dr Selar limited-run series? 😁
Dammit, you reminded me of Rise of Skywalker, now I have to go fetch the Brain Bleach...
I feel like I've blocked out so much of Voyager that these episodes are like watching it all over again
You ARE a Daddy, Steve. Woof!
It sucks, but it was one of the first episodes of Voyager I ever saw. I love Voyager (sorry Steve) so I feel as though I am contractually obliged to at least like 'The Q & The Grey'.
Can you give us your thoughts on Babylon 5?
Why are the Q so fascinated by Starfleet uniforms?
I always took it that the original Q wore a Starfleet uniform with a captain's insignia on it to irritate Picard, who had earned his Starfleet uniform and captain's insignia through years of hard work. I don't know why other Q would, though.
@@McFlingleson It's because they don't really have corporeal bodies. When they appear on a ship, it's the first time they've corporated, so they choose their form and appearance based on the people closest to them. Had Lady Q appeared on a Klingon ship first, she would be wearing a Klingon uniform and look like a Klingon.
16:11 😂 he did not just 💀
I'm disappointed that the episode about the romantic prospects of John deLancie's character didn't find an excuse for an A-plot involving Voyager disguising itself as a less powerful vessel in order to bait an enemy into attacking.
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(Yo dawg, I heard you like Q-ships...)
I cannot accept a US civil war analogy without clearly establishing the confederacy analog as corrupt and morally bankrupt.
A bad episode with some good moments. The dog scene was funny.
It may be an "old joke" but I hadn't heard it before at the time, I thought it was hilarious. :D
Steve, I’ll admit I’m torn on if I want to see more of The Continuum or leave it ambiguous and allow the theater of the mind tell me about it. What do you think?
I think the less we see of it, the better. They got away with showing it in "Death Wish" because it was a bit surreal and full of symbolism, and it was one scene that served as the climax of the episode. In "The Q and the Grey," Janeway and Q spend most of the episode there, and the scenario isn't creative at all. It's "Q Civil War = American Civil War," and the symbolism stops there. Like the rest of the episode, it's flat. But even beyond that, I do think the Continuum is much better as a place that is occasionally spoken about than a place we actually visit.
This episode is frustrating because it's one of the very few instances of actual consequences in Voyager. We actually get some fallout & there's an interesting idea burried somewhere in there; unfortunately they totally fail the execution. But "an interesting idea that fails in the execution" is basically Voyager's manifeso, so we shouldn't be too surprised.
…It’s kind of depressing that the writers think Jane would be ‘familiar’ with some random civil war of some random nation hundreds upon hundreds of years ago.
Even if it’s culturally ‘in’ right now… it still says a lot about the writers vision of the future.
This is not an episode I ever thought I'd come to the defence of...and I won't, except to say it is nice to see Susie Plakson in more Star Trek, and nice she didn't need to spend hours in makeup to be a Klingon or Andorian, just wish she'd been given a better character and script. Thoroughly agree that this made some really poor decisions with the Q, although I definitely blame some of the track laid in "Death Wish" - I think the Continuum is best not shown at all (remaining somewhat unclear whether Q is really doing their bidding or if his torture/testing of Picard is just him messing around and how he lines up with most other Q), but needed to be far more unusual and abstract if it was shown, not giving incredibly human motivations to beings who are supposed to be so removed from humanity.
Is it just me, or does the Q baby look like he's coming down with jaundice?
Oh the Qumanity
Haven't scrolled thru the comments to see if it's been brought up.. Would you consider folding in TOS 'The Squire of Gothos' as part of you Q-review series of videos? By definition, not a Q episode, but General..I mean Squire Trelane is a proto-Q kind of character
Didn't have to scroll too far to find someone else suggesting the same thing.. bonus Q-review video with Trelane as the Q in question
So does food and drink created on the holodeck have any taste?
It's probably replicated. "Only a Paper Moon" suggests that food and wastes aren't a concern when living in the holodeck long-term.
I think so, I think the holodeck uses the replicators to actually make the food and drink.
Next Gen is the only one I can watch....I find episodes of voyager are like the Wizard of oz
At least the puppy was cute...
Why was Q in the Union uniform. Shouldn't Cornell Q be in a Union uniform since he is the status quo
Hmm.
Well since Q is more or less the good guy here they probably thought it a bad idea to make him a Confederate.
Perhaps they should have gone with an American Revolution vibe instead.
oof, brutally honest review