Yes. You could occupy 3 or 4 episodes involving two factions forming. Each one wants to cannibalize the other ship for repairs or upgrades where applicable. Taking a nuke before leaving could have meant the destruction of their manufacturing capabilities thus the ability to make full repairs. You could have some drama about Pegasus's stores being radiated and will make the crew sick if they try to repair with them... but some go ahead and sacrifice.
I am actually with you on the idea of making the Pegasus a wounded giant and show it almost looking like Galactica from Season 4, I also think that if it's sacrifice going out guns blazing to have been a planned distraction rather than a surprise rescue would have felt better narratively. Galactica doing the whole Adama Maneuver while the Pegasus is going 1v6 with the Cylons providing a ticking clock before it is destroyed and the Cylons come to whip out Galactica and the escaping colony ships. Also yeah, could have been a moment of redemption for Cain if she had lived that long
I, too, like your "wounded Pegasus" idea. They could have even used it as an emotional hammer-blow when it appeared. Imagine the vipers move in towards the Pegasus. There are some battle scars visible, but the ship mostly looks intact. "It's like a dream." "It is a dream." And then the vipers pass to the opposite side, and there is the massive nuclear crater in a burned-out flight pod. The armor on that side is tattered with dozens of impacts from where the Cylons have been focusing their attacks against the compromised defenses. Hull frames are visible where armor has been stripped from less critical sections to plate back over strikes to the main hull. The music turns ominous and the camera zooms in to the pilots' faces, their expressions of joy turning to horror at the state of the ship. Nobody has to say it - it's not a dream, it's a nightmare. If they wanted to make it REALLY ominous, some of the plating over battle damage could have had recognizable markings similar to some of the civilian ships in the Rag Tag Fleet, strongly implying what we later learned about Cain's actions.
The "plating from civilian fleet" patching up Pegasus is a cool and honestly creepy idea. Imagine Galactica's civilian fleet never knew about what Pegasus did to the Scyllia fleet, but rumors float around evertime they look at Pegasus's hull....they see a section on the Alligator head has Scyllia's name plate on it, the section of plate it was attached to used to patch damage on the wounded giant....and everyone can only wonder "Where DID they get that plating?"
In the novelization of "The Living Legend" (original series episode with Cain and the Pegasus), the Pegasus was a slightly older model of battlestar, and *was * found by Galactica & the fleet in much worse shape. "..her hull was scarred and pitted, and Apollo could see where she had taken serious damage amidships... damage that had been repaired, but would have sent any other battlestar back for refitting. The Pegasus looked like an old, battered warrior. 'My Gods!' said Starbuck, 'What is holding her together? Spit?"
@@deloreanrc Would also make the story in Razor better. Give Cain no real choice. We either cannibalize the Scyllia fleet or we are done. At this point, the Pegasus is more or less dead in the water. FTL is down and they don't really have the resources to make replacement parts. They would have to cannibalize parts of the Pegasus to fix the FTL and until then the Cylons could jump in and finish them off... then they find the Scyllia fleet... All those replacement parts... Now they have a real reason to be picked apart with bits slapped onto the Pegasus. Their FTL cannibalized to fix the damaged Pegasus' FTL drive, the hulls used as makeshift platting, the useful civilians drafted, food, water, and ammunition taken and whatever is left is melted down to fuel the Pegasus' refinery capabilities. She can still make new parts and vipers so long as she has the usable material to do it... and the Scyllia fleet just so happened to be usable material.
@@mattstorm360 I would add to that, that Cain's husband (or very important family member) is on the scyllia fleet but is lost during a "My ship is dead in the water, the cylons are bearing down on us, either your ship/the fleet jumps or we all die" forcing cain to make another hard choice, which adds to Cain's mental instability.
you brought up some good points i hadn’t considered before. i think the whole suicide run over new caprica would have been a lot less stupid if the ship had already been on its last legs, then it could have been properly part of the rescue plan and not some spur of the moment decision.
Another way to handle the destruction of the Pegasus is *random bad luck* by having a BaseStar _accidentally_ jump in directly in its path and the collision cripple the Pegasus. That gives the "if only" _they could have won this_ if the ship had been a hundred metres to the side. Have Apollo use a sound strategy and be winning the battle up until that moment when the dice just landed the wrong way and he got snake eyes. He's lined up the BaseStars on approach so that they are in a line obscuring each other from him and can't bring their full firepower to bear because they're blocking each other (having been focused on Galactica in a perpendicular firing line formation to pound Galactica with concentrated fire) and he's taking them out one by one with everything Pegasus has got. Such as firing nukes with a simultaneous salvo of regular missiles to soak up the AA, through the gaps to detonate near BaseStars further back in the line formation to take out their raiders and mess with their systems _as his opening move._ .... Or a couple of nuke armed Raptors jumping in and going 'suprise' while also launching drones ect to confuse the Cylons for a few seconds. Basically a clever strategy so the fans don't want Apollo court-martialled. Apollo's plan is working, the Cylons have been put in a bad position and his misdirection (the hallmark of all the BSG wins against the odds) is working. Remember the Cylons expected to take on both BattleStars at once, they would have a lot of firepower there, that's why Galactica is taking such a hit. Then the BaseStar reserves jump in but Apollo had planned for that as it was only two BaseStars ... "Watch the countdown clock, the two BaseStars guarding the far side of the planet will jump in blind in _X_ (nods to Sharon). Have the tubes reloaded with nukes by then. Remember we can take them as long as we take down at least _Y_ BaseStars already here beforehand." It's working, the first BaseStar went up straight away with bullseyes on its central junction, and others are variously damaged and crippled as they get hit with overshots from the first BaseStar. They stop firing on Galactica as they desperately manoeuvre to try and get clear shots at Pegasus while false drone readings have them confused. Raptors had created fake Pegasus readings opposite side from Galactica and then on the far side of the firing line of BaseStars, so the Cylons assumed the readings of the real Pegasus were another fake until the BaseStar first in line could see it directly, which was the same moment it started taking hits. Have it a showcase of how Raptors as scouts and EW platforms (and stand off launchers) are useful in harrassment if used intelligently. They've thrown the Cylons into disarray and inflicted enough damage to the BaseStars present that the reinforcements can be handled. Except when the two BaseStars jump in one is in a direct collision course and it's not a deliberate kamikaze strategy by the Cylons - the BaseStar also tries to evade but its too late for both ships. The BaseStar actually does more damage by trying to get out of the way as one of its spires impacts behind the armoured head of Pegasus, hitting the flank of the ship that's not as reinforced and going in deep, maybe hitting the engine clusters. [this is to explain while later on Galactica can ram the station, the prow of the ship is tough enough, in _this case_ it was a offside hit]. It could also jump in with its spires entangled or whatever, but that might give the impression it was deliberate. This wasn't superior Cylon planning, this was a fluke. The BaseStar is completely destroyed and Pegasus is now a write off, it's never going to jump again (at least not with battlefield repairs). *How the dialogue could play out.* "Frack..damage report" "The lower brace [sound of horror] _is gone,_... we even get the jump drives back online, we're splitting in two." Apollo makes the call to abandon ship and is smart about that as well. Over the PA: "Raptors launch at your call, the shuttles jump from inside the flight pods once the Raptors are gone [foreshadowing the _final_ battle]. It doesn't matter anymore. There's nothing that can save her. (Save yourselves, we still need you for Galactica.)" Then to the Bridge crew "Is Galactica going to make it? We need to buy them the time" Looks at Pegasus "The cost has already been too high, let's at least make it worth it." Minor character(s) from Pegasus "Galactica's starting to spool up its jump drives. We can set everything here to automatic. Galactica needs you too sir, go. We'll leave _when we're able."_ Apollo understands "you sure...?" and salutes them with tears in the corners of his eyes. And then runs like hell for his Raptor. The minor characters as they aim Pegasus to inflict maximum damage on the remaining BaseStars "Y'know we almost had this. Luck is .... well luck." [What about the second BaseStar that jumped in near but didn't collide? The remaining crew could wait till everyone's clear and then fire all the nukes at too close a range at it] Then Pegasus's sacrifice isn't like the death of a character in the Aliens franchise, ie down to their own stupidity. It's fate cruelly taking down a magnificent character when they had so much potential left, but they still make a damn good accounting of themselves. It's a heroic death.
My checklist for how I'd use the Pegasus. 1 make it newer but comparable to the Galactiga. 2 have damage and limits for its capabilities. 3 have it's fate unknown. Either the ship disappears during the battle ( or destroyed with heroic sacrifice by it's crew) or it's fate is unknown by virtue of the fleet leaving the colony during the battle. Either way limits are it's greatest strength here.
As far as i remember, your point 3 is exactly what happend in the original. After a heroic fight the pegasus vanished, never to be seen again - but no wreackage was found. So it might appear at a later date (never happend though).
@@oliverurbanik9647 yes but in my version for the redo either it's destroyed on screen or the exodus fleet leave before the Battle is over leaving it's fate unknown.
I want to believe that when the Pegasus showed up, which was also being hunted by Cylon Basestars, that the two perusing Cylons fleets combined which is why we see the Basestar fleets just simply balloon in size.
It is a glorious ship and i will allow no slander of the Pegasus Slander of its captains On the other hand will be endorsed and the decision to sacrifice it was moronic
Especially the way they did it. Nobody with a week of tactical experience would fight that battle the way Lee did. At least try survive not just go and ram that basestar. Charge in the way he did was the way to go, bringing into play that insane forward battery ( which is indeed a glorious scene with that zoom out and Bear's music ) but then maneuver to either shield the Galactica thus taking off some pressure or just onto the opposite side of the basestars like they did during the battle of the Resurrection ship. It was shown that the Pegasus itself can handle 4 basestars so the two of them would've had a solid chance. If things go south you can always ram them but at least try. I agree, it was done dirty and I will never forgive them. That being said, its still my favourite scifi show and nobody was able to come up with a better looking ship than the RDM version of Pegasus.
I always questioned why a Battlestar has fabricators and raw material silos when it’s primary job is to have lots of guns and armour and fly in hard and fast. Those fabricators and raw materials add mass that doesn’t serve a function in an active firefight. After action or before action, sure replenishing vipers or fanning spare parts make sense, and the simulators ought to be standard on any ship for practice and simulating practice engagements… but Pegasus always smacked of a mobile training base. A ship that can fight but is to valuable to commit in war time when ground target viper fab and pilot training bases would be vulnerable. Pegasus has a good blitz ability when she runs forward, but since Adama failed to keep up momentum I have to assume her forward guns are her party piece and her other guns lack the slugging power of Galactica… something people have cited as wrong, but when I look at her silhouette I notice her back is overshadowed by her engines and alligator head… Either way, Pegasus is one ship that you ideally don’t want getting damaged if it is your only source of viper and pilot replacement. More battle lean BS’s whose only function is to fight an enemy can fill that role. Pegasus can fill that role but if the battle outcome is uncertain Pegasus would be the first ship pulled off the front line… and thus it is Cains perfect command ship that allows the top brass to pull her out of tactical engagements and keep her bloodlust in check.
An interesting question that has bugged me for a while. Is why didn't the Colonies refurbished Galactica's unused flight pod into a version of The Pegasus's fabrication matrices. The same fabrication matrices could build something as complex as a Viper mark 7, There is no way they couldn't reprogram them to fabricate the components for a new one. Especially with the colonization of New Caprica. During the first few months when the Colonias were breaking ground. That would have been the best place to start increasing the colonial's industrial capacity needed for the next stage of colonization of the planet. Then again maybe that's just the Factorio player in me talking.
No scholar on bsg, but I'm assuming it would be handwaved bc "that level of sophistication would require mid level equipment that they didn't have" i.e. mercury foundries required planet based support to construct in the first place. (Though honestly, that level of tech on basically a battlecarrier never made sense in the first place. They're frigging huge and already packed to the gills just to function. How the hell you going to shoehorn an industrial plant into an even smaller one?) And I get it, first time I found out that it could mfr, I went into mental starcrack mode. Up the tech tree we go lol
@@blackc1479 TBF, the Galactica is 1,500 meter long, and that flight pod is about 1/3rd the length of the ship, so you could fit something in there if you really wanted to. a better argument is that they might not of had the spare power to run a onboard factory
Part of this is, I think, due to Moore's habit of introducing things into the story without having a clear idea of how they resolve going forward. The problem with the Pegasus on its introduction to the reboot series is not the ship itself, but that Admiral Caine and her crew have broken in a bad way morally and that Caine outranks Adama. The original series Caine was not a bad person, but a glory hound and very charismatic over Adama's cautiousness on preserving the remnant of known humanity. Once the reboot series gets rid of Caine, without losing the Pegasus with her, they had written themselves into a bit of a corner with a now OP ship with the human problem somewhat mitigated. Also, the battle scarred Pegasus idea could have been introduced anytime after she joins the fleet, especially during the incident where Lee is forced to take command of the Pegasus.
Given the remake series was far more fleshed out in its world, and the military far more organized and professional in military function, making Caine outrank Adama was really the only way to introduce believable drama / conflict into the mix. If Caine had been subordinate to Adama, he would have just used his authority to keep her in line. Also, the series already had its share of underhanded undermining underlings in Zarek and Baltar; another one would have been unnecessarily repetitive.
Caine could still "outrank" Adama without actually needing to be an Admiral. Now this would have likely needed a much older Commander to have achieved that rank before Adama but instead we got the incredibly aggressive version of Caine. @@AaronCMounts
I like the idea of a damaged Pegasus, one that’s structural members are shot and jumps are limited. It would give more impetus to stay on New Caprica and when she sacrificed herself it was with the knowledge she would likely never jump again anyway. It would have also provided more impact to the compound damage that Galactica was taking over the later series.
I think that the problem with the Pegasus is that it was too far advanced in comparison to the Galactica. If it had been the same model (as it was in the original show) as the Galactica or a single generation ahead it would have been a lot more balanced. However, with a lack of visible damage, not using its capabilities during a deadly fight and it being a far more capable platform than the ship it was sacrificing itself for the episode where it is destroyed just seems so nonsensical that I would rather go back to the original series where it got lost trying to divert some Cylon base-stars away from the Colonial fleet.
I agree. Though I think it would have been far better if the Pegasus was a FAR SMALLER vessel so it automatically fit into a secondary support role. That way it being lost in combat or being sacrificed in a wildly insane maneuver would have been far more believable and acceptable.
4 minutes in and I already have images of upgunned and uparmored Galactica thanks to Pegasus fabricating new components for her. Oh, what could've been. From season 3 onwards Galacitca could've easily had both her flight pods operational. But the show as is is still the best s-f that graced our television ever. Well, perhaps joint number 1 with The Expanse.
If I remember TOS correctly, after escaping the genocide, the Galactica was in desperate need of rebuilding its Viper corps, but what they actually needed was more pilots, not more Vipers as they had plenty of latter and lacked the former, leading to a Cylon pilot whining about how human tactics suddenly turned bizarre and they couldn't turkey-shoot them anymore. The implication, I think, was that they could always build more Vipers. This was actually backed up by several episodes. In one, it was stated that they needed a month on a suitable planet to replenish the fleet's food stocks, their agriculture was that good, which spoke of a high technological level. They built/established the agro ship because they couldn't afford the month, what with the Cylons chasing them. And then, in a later episode they revealed the Delta Flyer before the Delta Flyer was a thing with an upgraded recon Viper that included a fully functional AI. So their manufacturing ability was high but not omnipotent. In one episode, they permanently lost Long Scan, forcing them to use more and longer-ranged patrols, which increased overall fuel consumption. But that was all years ago and I don't know if I'm remembering everything right.
One of the differences between TOS BSG and the reboot, was that you could see things improving and changing in the fleet (as much as a show of the time would allow). Vipers could be replaced without any difficulty. Yes, it was people that was the limiting factor, that's why women became pilots.
We can't talk about the Pegasus without mentioning Razor. That movie should have been incorporated into seasons 3 and 4 in the form of a series of flashbacks. Would have made the later seasons (that had too many filler episodes anyway) on par with season 1. That, and make the Pegasus equal in strength to the Galactica. That way it doesn't seem so illogical for Adama to keep his flag on the Galactica instead of moving it to the more modern and more valuable battlestar.
I agree with what you're saying about a broken down Pegasus would have been a better intro to the ship. But honestly I think that the events of Razor could have happened in the series proper and given the Pegasus the out that the original ship had. Or having the Hybrid Basestar showing up around New Caprica and getting a Razor Part Deux and that's where we lose the girl, it'd give the setup more meaning and tie things together.
I think a better idea would have balanced it out with the Pegasus is to make it a resource hog. This ship was made post-Cylon War and was built with the industrial might of the colonials to back it up. Give it enough times (ten years or so) and people will forget logistics and think just having a big enough gun will win wars (looking at you Russia). Meanwhile, the Galactica was made during the Cylon War when resources were more scarce, therefore it was made to be more self-reliant. Therefore the Pegasus is more powerful than the Galactica but it burns through resources faster than the Galactica and will only be able to fight a few battles before having to refuel and rearm while the Galactica is able to fight. Therefore, instead of a weird sacrifice, the Colonials sent it to its death trying to take as many Cylons with it as they could not afford to keep it as it brought the fleet in the red due to the amount of resources it was burning through. (Though this only works if the show slowly converts the civilian fleet and modifies them to support manufacturing facilities to support each other and the fleet. Like repair ships to modified workshops and hospital ships).
I really like the idea of the networking and hacking being more of an issue and leading to the ship's ultimate downfall. While the whole "death by a thousand cuts" idea sounds really cool, I think having the Pegasus and Cain initially appear to be anything other than the model of peak colonial military does too much to weaken its initial arc. The impossibility of victory and Cain's blatant superiority over Adama in rank, armament, and seemingly discipline brings a lot both to the stakes, and to shine a light on the very human flaws and sins of the characters aboard. Cain and crew didn't turn cruel because they were forced to entirely by circumstance and the need to survive; they did it because it was ultimately a very human thing to do, and that doesn't really work if it shows up looking like it just flew through "Year of Hell". I think the networking could fix the severe amount of ass pull needed to cause the ship to lose, while making Lee's decision still somewhat stupid, but not unbelievably so. It'd still feel like an ass pull, but basically any way of killing the Pegasus would. Also a deus ex machina isn't always a storytelling mistake.
I really, really like the idea of Pegasus arriving as a broken colossus. Imposing limits, and remembering to work within them always makes storytelling more interesting. A huge, modern, heavily armed warship capable of doing her own replenishment and some limited repair on the run would be a HUGE Cylon target. She should have arrived with a patchwork of hasty field repairs, damaged weapons systems, I quite like the image that popped into my head when you described her being short an engine nacelle and a flight pod, all this damage pulling her inexorably towards a death by a thousand cuts, but in her arrival still bringing the Colonial Fleet a massive dose of hope as, even battered and broken, she's at least as well equipped to protect this last remaining gathering of humanity as their current defender, the Galactica. It makes writing her out of the story easier too, as, if her back's broken already, she's got a glass jaw. Every hit could very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back
It would have worked better regarding the Pegasus if she had been just as old as Galactica or even the same class of ship. Maybe have her be even more worn down than Galactica was. The sacrifice of Pegasus could have easily been accepted for me if that had been the case.
My idea is that she's a newer ship but of similar size to the Galactiga. They could have even used an update of the original Columbia Battlestar to show the two. But overall limit it's capabilities and make it's sacrifice worth it.
Something else they could’ve done is instead of the Pegasus being destroyed at new caprica, it instead is heavily wounded and in a similar state as the rebel baseship, with maybe a base star piercing the center of the Pegasus with one of its prongs completely ripping out the fabrication bays and maybe tearing off a flight pod or at least damaging a large chunk of the ship. while the fleet is celebrating, admiral adama is grieving over what he assumes to be the loss of Pegasus with all hands until they jump back, Pegasus barley survived but is in even worse condition than the galactica, Pegasus retains a lot of its weapons but can barley take anymore hits without completely caving in, practically a glass canon, Then galactica has to once again do the heavy lifting and I’d say geata and zareck wouldn’t have much trouble with Pegasus anymore when they throw their mutiny since Pegasus can’t take any serious hits from galactica batteries, then at the battle of the Ionian nebula Pegasus has to practically hide behind galactica as it tries to hit the basestars. That way we can still have the cool ass bits of a battlestar firing offensively instead of being completely on the defense with flak. And during the battle of the colony Pegasus can either remain with the fleet as they make way to “earth” or they could join galactica in doing a double pronged assault, each ship on opposite sides of the colony with galactica ramming it while Pegasus tries to draw its fire with its main batteries firing at non critical components of the colony. Idk I just wish so badly Pegasus wasn’t destroyed and made it to the finale alongside the grand old lady
I loved the final battle of the reboot Pegasus. It was a hybrid with a little bit of the last battle of the Pegasus seen in the original TV series mixed with a lot of the ship's final battle in the Richard Hatch post original series novels.
3:24 that is incorrect. There is a scene where Adamma and Roselin are talking and one of them states that the manufacturing on Pegasus just turned out their first Viper MK.VII. and the other replies, "we are starting to rebuild" or something. It was well after Cains death etc. After that, i dont remember the manufacturing being mentioned.
I despised the way Caine was handled in the reboot. She was a Military Officer, as written by a civilian that has clue zero , about how a real Military works.
Technically, they remade Cain into an Ahab character that had a massive hate for Cylons and that is what drove her. She was not acting like a cold calculating millitary commander of a Battlestar (contrasting her from Adama) but gifted but obsessed character that had been broken by the events in the “war”. I can understand why others don’t like it but it is not uncommon in military characters in fiction.
@@erikawhelan4673 I'm sure there is. Though I've never heard of any Admiral summarily executing their XO on the Bridge. However, the list of Badmirals in fiction is certainly longer then the list of good Flag Officers.
I do agree that the Pegasus was waisted but only provisionally. The only reason for its appearance was to resupply the Galactica with pilots , Raptors and Vipers. As far as the story goes there’s no other reason for it to be there.
Really, they could’ve, maybe should’ve, had a small group of ships encounter the Fleet, maybe with a small hastily converted transport serving as an ad hoc carrier. If the show had been written after Deadlock, I’d even suggest this newer, smaller fleet being protected by a couple of Adamants or even a hastily reactivated Artemis or Atlas (they could’ve played it off as those ships also being converted to serve as museums or something) Of course, such a thing can only exist in the realm of fan fiction now, but it’s still cool to think about.
@@themightyalpaca313As a _Deadlock_ player, I shudder to imagine an _Atlas_ joining the fleet. Rarely used them, because even compared to a battlestar, they are so _slow!_ Might as well transfer the Vipers to _Galactica_ and abandon the damn thing.
@@ReddwarfIV "The army you've got is never the army you want." Gotta make do with what you have. That said, as someone who hasn't watched the series, I have to ask: could _all_ of the civilian ships keep up with Galactica at full sublight? Or was she already the slowest ship in the convoy? If not, Galactica could speed ahead to "become the battle line," as a previous episode of SCI put it, and the Atlas could stay back with the convoy to pick off anything that gets past Galactica's defenses or tries to flank.
@@CiaranMaxwell The general idea was that the Fleet would jump away as soon as the enemy appeared, they would never have to keep up with Galactica during a battle. That said, they don't have nearly as much mass to shift, so most civilian vessels in BSG actually have far more favourable acceleration curves than battlestars do. Certainly, all the civilian vessels you get to control in _Deadlock_ are capable of covering a _lot_ of space in one turn, whilst being quite maneuverable as well.
@@ReddwarfIV Expanding on this, the Colonial One (or its similar class of ships) can easily outrun an Artemis on full burn (Boost Thrusters, which iirc disables the weapons as well). The Artemis-class was faster than the Jupiters at their prime, can't even imagine how slower Galactica would've been with her age.
As a lot of others are saying, I too agree that the idea of the Pegasus being a battered wounded and torn up leviathan that has limped its way to the fleet would of done wonders for the issues. At that point it not some over powered super ship, it would provide some help and be useful yet as you stated be something that is clearly dying a slow and painful death. It would also of made the worse lady ever's choices to start stripping civi-ships for materials made more sense, cause I mean still stupid as hell but at least then it adds a layer of the psycho trying to get enough material to get her revenge boat back up to snuff. And it would of made the Pegasus's death more well interesting and cool, instead of a super ship just getting tossed aside or lost for idiotic reasons. It is a ship and crew doing a final stand, a one final voyage to make a difference. A ship going down with a fight, instead of dying with a whimper.
Eh... he's right. I hate to admit it, but he's right. Another class of Battlestar showing up, like one of the other main-line Battlestars, would have worked out better for plot reasons.
Yeah, the sacrifice of the Pagasus was stupid in the miniseries the way it was handled. They introduced this highly advanced ship, eventually solved the loyality issues by killing Caine way too early - for my taste - and then they had this ship and did not know what to do with it. From a logical standpoint it would have made much more sence to move most of the staff and the civilians to the Pegasus und when they tried to settle on New Caprtica they could have salvaged the way more damaged Galactica for parts to bulld up the colony. And when the Cylons returned they could have used the now almost useless Galactica for the distraction suicide run. Making the Pegasus the same class as the Galactica, like in the orginal show - or using the wounded giant approach would have made it more believable.
In universe, what if _one_ of the reasons that the Cylons attacked was because the newest BattleStars were so overpowered versus BaseStars? The Cylons had modelled that the Colonial fleet would soon be able to beat the Cylon fleet in a straight shooting match. Add that to the Bulldog storyline and the Cylons came up with The Plan out of fear.
@@kresnik_ssGiven they all could resurrect why focus on defense when they could swarm an enemy with waves of fighters that shoot nukes? They could hyperjump around their enemies all day and bomb them even without electronic warfare or hacking abilities.
👌😎👍Very cool and very nicely greatly well done and informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and format provided on every thing on and about the Battlestar Pegasus and of the reson for Her demise, A job very fabulously well done indeed Sir!.
A lot of your points are ill thought-out. 1) The Pegasus construction systems aren't replicators, they need resources that require a full mining team because it's one thing to mine an ice-like substance, something else entirely to dig into a planet's crust to extract minerals that themselves then need to be refined. There's a whole process before you get to construction. 2) Re-arming and Re-armouring Galactica would require a dry dock, that isn't something you can do in the field, especially when the Cylons are hunting you. 3) A sneak attack could have finished off the Cylons for good just as easily as a brute force attack from Pegasus. The decision not to was based upon a moral code rather than a military code so the outcome would be no different. 4) Costs. An entirely spurious critique given that's part of a show runner's job. 5) Not killing off Galactica because the titular ship. This is precisely what RDM wanted to do to Voyager in Star Trek Voyager. I get that you didn't like it and that's your opinion but don't make spurious arguments to justify your dislike.
Whilst not mentioned in the show, I think it kinda obvious that as Adama Older left for his suicide mission, he left all the nukes for Adama Younger. And again when Adama Younger left for his suicide mission, he again left the nukes for the Vipers as the Vipers would basically hapless knocking out Basestars with kinetics and chemicals only when protecting the small fleet for jump prep.
@@scienceinsanity6927 Yeah the nukes are probably the only thing Pegasus can't make more - that's why they use them so sparingly. They are basically only employed by Colonials when their use is justified by the main goal - finding Earth before Cylons in a way that Cylons don't find it too, not actually when the number of survivors actually getting to Earth is at risk. Pretty much the only time when they differ from this is when taking out the Resurrection hub, and if I remember it right then they use Cylon warheads and in the finale when attacking the Colony - even then it is linked to finding the new Earth. And on later times they often make a big deal out of getting the political approve to use nuclear weapons (and/or weapons off mass destruction) from the president - that might have made them politically unusable as Roslin was on New Caprica. The actual launch procedure doesn't feed physical input from civilian authorities if remember it right. So many things I don't remember - clear indication I have to rewatch the series!
Pegasus being such a beast was actually a huge problem until the death of Cain. The problems with her death are problems with the writing of Cain's death, not the Pegasus. Once new Caprica became settled both ships were equally worthless with inadequate skeleton crews thanks to President Baltar. BSG had a lot of great writing and some bad writing; the decision to give the audience the beast only to take it away was great writing and timed to happen at the same time as losing 1/5th of the human race at the same time was a powerful combination and falls under great writing.
My mom got me the BSG Collector's Edition for Christmas (no idea where she managed to find that) and ive been watching an episode or two every day. Just finished Season 1 and im a bit anxious to continue. Such an amazing cliffhanger.
I agree the battered pegasus would make a lot more sense. A story plot of we are always getting hacked so have to keep running and couldn't save all the civillians we could. Then trying to fix the hacking problems only to have them fail during a battle. Would really keep to the theme of the show and just not have every fix onboard. The influx in trained pilots and crew would allow the addition of a bunch of cast memebers and also solved some training issues. perhaps some crew that know how to fabricate. Instead of a machine its a group of dedicated engineers that can keep old galatica afloat easier as its not relying on the networking tech they aren't as good as fabricating but pits them against baltar to solve the computer issues.
3:20 I find the arguement, that the Pegasus' production line could be retooled to basically produce everything needed, to be pretty weak. The Pegasus' production line was likely highly limited. She is a batllestar after all, not an industrial ship. As such, her production line was likely highly specialized to take up as little room as possible and need as little energy as possible. Especially complex parts, such as different engine designs, or parts that simply aren't part of a Viper, like heavy armor, likely couldn't have been produced on the Pegasus. And the argument that Pegasus got nuked and needed repairs, thus making it highly likely that they used the production line to make those repairs, is also pretty weak, considering Galactica ate a nuke just as Pegasus did at the very start of the war, and she kept on trucking as well. Add to that that Pegasus just enetered a yard period and probably had replacement parts rolled onto it and you have yourself a good argument why Pegasus did not use her production line to repair her own damage.
Agreed. Even if the machinery itself was theoretically capable of being adapted to produce a wide range of items, there would have been a number of items for which physical constraints from the size of the machinery, and the space available to store the material inputs and outputs, would have made fabrication impossible. There's also the issue of obtaining the necessary materials to fabricate certain items to begin with.
About the fabrication thing. Well I could imagne you say you don't have the resources. I could imagne that being on the run could prevent you from mining or gather resources other ways. Still I agree it could have been used in a lot of ways. I like the idea you present with the Pegasus being heavly damaged.
Did you know, that the German actress Nastassia KInski was rumored to have been offered the part of Admiral Kane, but she declined. I personally think she would have made an awesome, and evil, Admiral Kane.
Had Pegasus survived, would the fleet even needed to have found another planet to colonize? Build some space colonies and new fabrication facilities in the middle of nowhere, and every generation or two build another small group of habs and fabrication facilities somewhere else as a sort of civilizational von Neumann probe.
I always wish they would've let the original Galactica get destroyed as a season finale, and move the flag to the Pegasus (maybe a battered one... great huge battle with damage, maybe still even the New Caprica line, just done differently), and rename it Galactica. the "factory" opens up the storyline, etc. However, given they were limiting seasons, it really wasn't necessary. But one could dream... :) I do agree with your analysis about character and such, my version would've been a different show, and I do love the show, it did have to go.
6:42 the issue is how it was removed It was only destroyed because lee had Avoided using any tactical sense during the battle of new caprica, not to mention he left his vipers behind. While, you can argue that it was to defend the civilian ships. I can tell you that the moment a baseship was deployed. All those viper pilots would die screaming And the civilian ships not long after A better option would Be to make it appear as if they had been taken out in battle. But rather have it be an emergency jump This could split the narrative Making it so lee has to learn how to command it in. The absence of his father And still giving the fleet the same amount of hopelessness and the necessity of cooperating with the rebels You could have a season finale of them. Finally meeting up. A great reunion between the two ships I am also biased I think the mercury class is cooler than tree jupiter class
@@richardarriaga6271 Said civilian ships have remained more or less undetected in that nebula for months And even then, as I said, if they were found by a raider, it's a only a matter of time before a base star is deployed. And the moment it's there everyone's gonna die screaming
There's one very simple change I'd make to balance Galactica vs Pegasus: Galactica was made to work with minimal automation, Pegasus wasn't. Sure, Pegasus has more raw brute force available but with its automated systems compromized, it's a lot less efficient running on its fallback solutions, needs more personnel per horsepower so to speak. A few lines added here or there how they tried to reactivate automated systems and they went haywire from trojans re-emerging from who knows where into systems thought to be running on clean code. About how hard it was to manually reload the improvized magazines shoved into lobotomized autoloaders, manually input firing solutions with far too few juryrigged old systems bolted into places they never were made for. And bingo, as long as there's unity, Pegasus is the big bad toastershredder we know and love, but throw some (inner?) conflict into the situation and Pegasus grinds to a screeching halt while Galactica barely changes.
I think another good idea could of been to make the Pegasus a nother old battle star maybe even an Artemis class as a nod to the old series and giving the og Pegasus a spiritual one last gun hoe hurra
Pegasus was brought in for one reason only. in the original series that was one of the most popular arcs. But the original story wasn't that Galactica was being decommissioned, it was the Capricia Flagship. so in the original finding a second of the 12 Battlestars was a big thing. The remake made it worse for them. Instead of a old but fully functional Battlestar they were in a borderline gutted ship. A museum and gift shops in place of a flight pod no real armaments, it was very much implied that the only reason Galactica survived was because it wasn't worth prioritizing as a target. for Pegasus it was a desperate call for a blind jump and grandfathered "tactical genius" of General Cain that resulted in the Pegasus avoiding the Cylon fleet. Admiral Cain then begins to plan for revenge very much as Adama had planned and stopped because Lee said the president was alive? It's kinda weird to compare original and reboot as the original Adama seemed like he was a council member and the military commander so chairman of the joint chiefs type. where in the reboot Adama was just one commander among many which required the President role to fill the gap of what the character design of this Adama lacked.
To fix the fabrication issue, have Pegasus with a self repair system and a cache of Vipers they had secured. The self repair system was one of the many new features which made Galactica obsolete, and the Vipers, well, are self explanatory.
Pegasus in many ways was a Mary Sue ship of the series. It seemed that no matter how much damage the Cylons threw at it, it just seemed to make her angrier and stronger. Unlike Galactica which slowly fell apart with every engagement.
Whenever you get to the second part with your rewrite, here's a thought: not only have her come in beaten and bruised, limping and licking her wounds... Have them having to make the decision to juggle using their fabrication and other resources focused on not ONLY the Pegasus AND the Galactica... But trying to keep the civilian vessels I'm sure could use some help, too. Death by a thousand cuts.
Clearly I don't understand BSGboot fans, because I'm not sure what about this is supposed to be upsetting and prompt me to unsubscribe. But given how often it gets suggested, maybe it's time to un-ring the bell and leave.
How I'd have handled it: keep the arrival of the Pegasus as is. It's the newest version of a Battlestar, has all the bells and whistles. By end of the two parter over the Resurrection Ship, she's taken a beating, but her fabricators are fine, and both she and Galactica are brought back to their "base specs", but there's underlying issues with the subframe of Pegasus that they got during that battle that will limit things, and they have to keep on top of - things that they cannot fix "on the fly" without a dry dock. They get to New Caprica and think, "Great: we can dry dock the Beast AND then the Bucket to fix the big things in the Beast, and retrofit the Bucket with some fabs." They ACTUALLY put a small fabricator onto Galactica first, something to allow for SMALL scale production, in the sealed off unused launch wing, as bringing THAT back to spec would have taken too long and been needless with the overguned and staffed Pegasus. They get this done and dusted, launch Galactica back up to orbit, then are about to bring down Pegasus (who was on guard) when the Cylons find New Caprica. Both Battlestars fly away with half the warriors of the fleet, and the show continues to the end of that situation as it did IN the shown episodes. Except that the Pegasus is used more completely IN the rescue, holding off the Basestars, and when it comes time to leave, BOTH manage to FTL away. However, on arrival with the rescued rag-tag fleet, the spine of Pegasus breaks (al la what WILL happen to Galactica in the future... basically, show us a forshadowing without being too in your face). They strip down Pegasus, and manage to save a lot of it's parts and bits - even manage to build a SMALL fabricator ship out of part of it. By the end, Pegasus "died a heroes death" and with two SMALL fabricator ships (one Galactica herself) for repairing and making new Vipers, maybe Raptors, but not to wholesale reclad the outside of Galactica again, and the other being for spare parts and Fleet repairs... it would allow the show to retain it's "if we take TOO much damage we're done", rather than "if we continue to gain damage we're done", but not have it be the same refrain over and over. We have a new ship made from Pegasus, maybe two... they might have been able to salvage enough to have a "flying wing" Carrier for more Viper launches, but it wouldn't be a tankie ship like it was... add some versitility to Galactica, and allow for the writers to no longer need to focus QUITE so much on "repairs are an issue". That part would come back as a big problem in the last season when the Cylon Rebels discover that Galactica has the beginnings of her own "broken back" issue.
I love the introduction of Pegesus. It is a great scene. I love that it stuck around because it sticks a finger in the eye of status quo is god trope. You are correct it is over the top in terms of ability like fabrication. They could have had it escape with half the crew and missing viper pilots. I like the idea of the wounded beast because, as you said, it required stupidity to kill off the ship vs a loss that doesn't make people look stupid. Imagine Cain wanting to transfer her flag to Galactica because it was the better ship. Imagine the oh shit when the assessment is done and the better ship on paper is revealed to be worse off than Galactica. More fights and more bad hits. The sacrifice play makes more sense when Pegesus is on borrowed time anyway. I do disagree with what you say about disposing of plot elements once the story is done because it makes for bad continuity. Character has sibling is shown once never again. Makes it look like the writers forgot. Its good to revisit those stories for b plots that continue through the show.
I generally agree with everything you say though i do irk a little with the Deus Ex Machina being a negative. Yes it can be done poorly and has been done poorly on numerous occasions but I get a little annoyed at the assumption that it's always a bad thing. It's fine if used appropriately. I personally had no issues with the introduction of Pegasus. I'm more annoyed that they barely used it to any good affect in show. Largely just relegated to examples of poor command structure and the occasional side story. Least we can all agree the death of Pegasus was bloody horrendous.
Discovering a battered Pegasus resolves the issue of its eventual demise while also still allowing the fun storytelling of Adama suddenly being second-in-command.
10:19 There is another option have the cylons field another form of base ship in deadlock the cylons regularly role out counters to the colonials with the argos and cratus class basestars
This video answers its own questions very capably. So a lot of this is just bad criticism. On some of the other points: > First moments of unquestionable hope This is already a misreading. You Can't Go Home Again, Hand of God, Colonial Day, Home Part 2, Final Cut and Flight of the Pheonix all have extremely strong moments of hope and payoff in the series. Also I don't like engaging with "plot hole" criticisms unless they're massive plot holes (which I don't think this ship presents), but what the hell, let's do it on a couple points. > Fabricating new armor panels If we take as read that "fabricating new vipers" necessarily means the Pegasus has sufficient capacity to repair itself (not clear and not established; fixing the damage of the nuke from Scorpia isn't shown and could just as well mean "fixing the electronic wiring and nuclear shielding" as it could "making gigantic new armor panels"). Also, I'd note that the pegasus doesn't turn out its first viper for weeks after it's introduced into the fleet, implying that its manufacturing capacities are slower than you give it credit for or that it doesn't have the manpower sans Galactica to effectively replace its losses. > If there was more ambiguity about the capacity of the ship There is, see above. The show only mentions the Pegasus's manufacturing abilities a couple of times; most of its power comes from its initial introduction in the Pegasus extended cut, where they show the technicians and spare parts being given to Galactica or the software upgrades it has, which are one-time things. Other than that the most we see of its abilities are in its guns, which are nice, but at the point when it's destroyed, we've mostly moved past every encounter with a Cylon basestar being a shooting war. > What if the ship had shown more damage when it was found? This a fair criticism, and I'd welcome it. It would also work with Cain's extreme militarism where she keeps picking fights she can't win. So, point. > Pegasus showing up is a deus ex machina This is simply wrong. Lee's tendency to disobey orders is well-established at this point, it's clearly within jump range, the Galactica's exfil of New Caprica being hopeless is well-established, and it only solves one problem with its destruction: the Galactica needs to get away, the Pegasus allows it that open door. This simply isn't what DEM actually means, which is a hallmark of bad internet criticism. > Literal character assassination 1. Not what "character assassination" means, literally or figuratively. 2. Cain being the authoritarian who runs the ship is also well-established, and when authoritarians disappear, it's not that far of a stretch to say that the militarism they bring with them disappears or is mitigated too. Hell, the militarism isn't even totally gone: Cain's XO runs the ship pretty heavy-handedly until he's murdered for being a corrupt prick, and some of the Pegasus's officers and pilots in later S2 episodes still act more militaristically than Galactica's service members. 3. Pegasus-Six being extremely competent with weapons and knowing the Pegasus's layout is established in Razor (which, sure, you could say was a retcon, although I wouldn't, but it's there regardless), and the payoff of Cain being murdered by a lover she abused and tortured because she couldn't see her humanity is appropriate for that character.
I absolutely despise where the reboot BSG ended up, so I'm not especially sympathetic to even more effectively gutting the Colonial's hopes. Though I do think you've made quite a few decent points for some version of BSG that didn't end up with a doomed people meandering to their pointless deaths out into those Smilodon infested grasslands. As for the reboot sticking to story beats from the original BSG, I'd argue that the original continuity did NOT lead to a hopeless outcome. It depicted a Fleet which had survived well enough to build at least that one new generation vessel - the one similar to the Ship of Light vessel. Something I've taken as the Colonials being on an ascendant path, whereas the reboot took a path of oblivion.
Something to consider , even though the Pegasus is not moving at the Speed of Light it is covering large distances in space so it is moving very fast. That much mass at that velocity would be like a fully loaded freight Train moving at full speed crashing into a building.
I just want to say, I absolutely love the video I agree with all the plot points But I would like to offer a solution to Pegasus first option is a adama could’ve renamed Pegasus to Galactica yes, that does does take away some of the problems in the later episodes like we’re Starbuck mentioned you need to watch out because a lot of the raptors are running clapped out jump drives referring to a lot of the jump drives on the raptors are completely shot the high heavens, and barely operational. It’s a miracle that they’re even still running. But I have an easy solution for that, and it’s quite a logical one. Yeah, you could replace the mechanical equipment to repair the machinery, but over time the machines themselves would fail and the tooling to replace the moulding themselves would just get cracked on it. It’ll reversible damaged. The word become a point where I eventually Pegasus can’t repair itself. No matter how hard they try. Even if you had the materials you can’t repair the mould on the ship, because eventually they would get completely corroded. Eventually, you have to source new moulding and build it yourself, which could take time and more resources which could be used for other things. That’s how I would solve Pegasus staying in the show But everything else in the video I really enjoyed didn’t like the fact they killed off Helena And I’m sorry but how the heck did a Cylon get from the bridge all the way up to her quarters I’m sorry you’re going to tell me no one saw her and don’t even get me started on. How the heck did she get off the ship what are you gonna tell me no one on the hanger Bay Saw the Cylon on, and when you know what she looks like the one and I’ll bring wait a minute she is the one in the brig stop her Yeah I can see the potential issues later on getting a little more hard to write, but then again if we don’t question why they destroyed the Pegasus or why it should not be in the show on the first place or shouldn’t be careful why it should’ve been kept with Galactica Then what are you? I have watched Star Trek Star Wars Stargate, since I was eight years old out of all those shows I have to write Battlestar Galactica on the top of them. I like the shits I like the atmosphere I like the fear factor. I wish the silence for a little more in your face like every once in awhile don’t have to worry about them but other than that I have to say your video completely shows why they should’ve done a better job with Pegasus. Do I agree shouldn’t of been in the show or should’ve been destroyed no But then again, the mercury class is my favourite ship and the Jupiter class. I have a soft spot for the client to get you. You can’t not like one without the other in my opinion 😊.
I've loved reading and seeing the many suggestions about how the Pegasus twist in BSG could have gone so much better. She comes in as a very definite Mary Sue with the only visible drawback being her CO which everyone who say the original series knew was going to be some kind of issue.
Being that I was a kid who got my family to watch the original due to a Smithsonian article on IML, I knew as soon as I saw that big beautiful ship she was doomed and tried to remain emotionally unattached to her; I knew her fate. Still, a shame but yeah, if ya knew ya knew and just prepped for the day she left or was destroyed.
When I was watching the show way back when - I thought another colonial surviving Battlestar arrived to save Galactica (alerted by the same nuke that the cylons saw over new caprica). It would have also been awesome if Lee Adama vanished like commander Cain and fate of Pegasus unknown
The concern with the Pegasus fabrication facilities being considered a Star Trek replicator could be easily resolved by a simple lack of raw materials to make things with. I would also have liked the Peg, when it initially appeared, to be fairly undamaged but unarmed. It was in dock after all, the story could be that it’s armament was offloaded during the attack. Cain then ordering Adama “Give me all your bullets” setting up the first confrontation.
The alternative I can think of for how to make the Pegasus work would be to make it a Valkyrie. A modern, but smaller and less capable ship than the Galactica. It being more modern and in full working order would give the argument that it might be better than the old and under armored Galatica but being smaller and less armored in general might make it arguable that it isn't. It also wouldn't come with foundries to fix every problem the fleet has but does bring in relief forces for the exhausted crew of Galatica.
What I would have liked instead is that the Pegasus looses their engines but it's FTL malfunctions and jumps to a random point or back to the refugee fleet badly damaged, and the evacuation on NC still worked, and then the next episode is to scuttle or salvage the Pegasus, and give Galactica a rough retro fit look for the ending.
The best solution is to make them sacrifice the pegasus for the civilian fleet, not just Galactica. For example: Jumping from the atmosphere is dangerous and can damage a ship therefore civilian ships need a couple of minutes to get high enough to jump without breaking after the jump. Now that the additional 4 basestarts did jump there is a lot of raider heading for the civilian fleet. One of the ships jumps from the atmosphere to inform the pegasus what is happening and we can see that ship breaking in half and suffering massive damage. Then Pegasus jumps in and takes a nuke that destroys its FTL.
i think they could have let the Pegasus hang around, even get Galatica destroyed and in honour, they rename the Pegasus, after a time the production facilities get damaged beyond repair by a virus or sabotaged, maybe in the mutiny and they could only produce ammunition.
A beaten Pegasus would also instill into the audience that there’s no fighting the Cylons in a stand-up fight, and that there’s no going back. Also, if Cain is still hellbent on her revenge trip-that she’s literally in charge of something that’s falling apart because of it, it makes her out to be more of an Ahab like character
🤔 Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. They also could have made the Pegasus a Valkyrie class; smaller ship with built in limitations. Still...the Mercury class Peggy was a seksi deus ex machina.
There are so many ways to fix the sacrifice of the Pegasus over New Caprica: They could have always planned to take both ships in, but one would jump first, alert the Cylons, then lead them off while the other jumped directly into atmosphere to recieve the evacuees. The Pegasus could have been ship 1 either because it was tougher and more likely to survive the pounding it would take (only to not quite make it), or because the oler Battlestars from the first Cylon war might have been designed with atmospheric entry in mind, making Galactica the only option for that role Or both ships could have jumped in to engage the Cylons directly, and the Cylons chose to focus on Pegasus as the more significant threat. Hoping that if Pegasus was destroyed, Galactica wouldn't last much passed that, or that if only one ship could be destroyed before the other jumped out, they'd rather down the more powerful of the two Alternatively, the Galactica could have taken on Religious significance as the vessel chosen by the gods to deliver the people to their new home, and so Pegasus, despite being a more powerful asset, could have been the more bearable psycological loss And those are just what I came up with. I'm sure other folks have even better ideas
The 13 episodes of season 1 were BRILLIANT. The 13 episodes of half-season 2.0 were BRILLIANT. The Pegasus embodied how BSG went OFF THE RAILS after that, because of RDM's dynamic plot arc approach to running the show. He didn't believe in Babylon 5 style plot arcs that were planned out in detail years in advance - he's right that doing it that way made B5 feel "on rails" and many episodes and plot threads were just there to put various plot-points on screen in a forced manner. Instead, RDM believed in having ongoing plot-arcs, but they only planned ahead for half a season at a time or so, which enables the episodes to organically take advantage of opportunities and limitations that crop up (i.e. an actor/character works better/worse than expected, so they adjust the plotlines accordingly). Season 1 was planned and executed brilliantly. Then they brilliantly planned and executed the 13 episodes of season 2.0. But after that, the production schedule for 26 episodes per year took a toll on their ability to plan and optimize the arcs, so you got things like them not knowing what to do with Pegasus, or in season 3 making Apollo FAT and never getting around to finishing his plot-arc that would have had him joining the marines and as RDM put it, "get hard" again - instead Jaime Bamber suffered through episode after episode of fat prosthetics until they finally just gave up and had Apollo lose all the weight and get ripped off-screen between episodes. And let's not forget Baltar's wasted potential - such a brilliant actor and character, that the writers had no idea what to do with after season 2.0. Basically, the show got lost for 1.5 seasons (season 2.5 and season 3/3.5), and then managed to kinda get its act together for season 4 and cross the finish line with some dignity.
I used to own the whole series on Bluray, but I sold it off last year after watching it for the final time, Having rewatched the show several times over the years, it becomes more clear that story wise, the writers (Moore and Eick) really had no clue what they were doing by around the end of season 1. The show really needed a roadmap and a "Bible" (like Babylon 5) before shooting began. Also I think some of the grounded Military tech (like bullets as opposed to some sort of energy based weapons) and nerfing the Cylons (just how they did the Cylons in general) hurt the show, alot.
in the original series, the Pegasus and the Galactica were sister ships, and Adama and Cain were equal ranks. The biggest differnce was that Cain was cast with more of a George Patton style blood and guts no quarter given or asked, while Adama was was more calculating with bigger responsibilities. all together totally different story lines
Imagine if Barry Garner was still alive and acting captain of the Pegasus, and the ships last battle was her suffering extensive damage to her midsection, but retaining the ability to do FTL, if her front section was intact. It would be interesting to see Garner's ark moved here, where instead of dying saving the ship, his ark would culminate with him deciding that the crew is more important than the ship, and choosing to use explosives to separate the rear with the FTL from the front sections. With this the explosion would allow what remains of Pegasus and its crew to FTL out, but also render the ship no longer combat worthy, or as useful as an industrial producer. This way you'd take its relevance of the plot table, and avoid the final battle debacle.
I like the crippled ship idea. Or my bad fanfic, let the OG Galactica be destroyed. And because the stain of Cain, Pegasus is rechristened Galactica and in the Old Ship's honor and the name continues on. And most of the story beats cam still happen.
From what I remember, wasn’t new tech supposed to be more vulnerable than legacy which is why the Galactica and old vipers survived. Analogous to vacuum tubes vs integrated circuitry in a nuclear war. Would’ve been more internally consistent if the writers wrote Pegasus out using the premise they setup from the get go. OP vs Galactica, vulnerable vs Cylons. By the end of the show, wasn’t everyone a Cylon?
Once you get to Earth, be sure to stop by any of the rivers to quench your thirst, jump up several feet to snatch fruit from a tree, and most importantly bring a spare Pegasus incase you need to smash a couple of wayward Basestars.
Yeah, if she could jump but not maneuver and had to be towed but towing slowed everyone down it could have been interesting. You can't leave her because she can manufacture items but they don't have any ore to do it yet would have done so much for the story. But I think at Season 3 they told the show it wasn't going past Season 5 and they needed to wrap this all up and it stopped being about the harshness of travel and getting to the end as quickly as possible.
I felt the pegasus was brought in to fool the audience into thinking the fleet finally had a real chance at surviving due to its ability to produce new weapons/ships then its destruction brought this whole feeling of complete hopelessness, but thats just my opinion
Fabricators without raw materials would be useless the problems would shift to getting enough raw materials. The vast amounts of parts and equipment needed to keep the refugee fleet operational could easily balance out the existence of the Pegasus's production.
I haven't watched the new series aside from clips, but the closest to surviving I can see the pegasus is in a crippled or salvage state, where now you would have a militant wing of people to incorporate, but no full capable ship, makes for a faction point I find missing, that of the true military hardline, the ultimate pragmatist.
I completely argee that ppl need to get off lee adama's ass about what happened. And I feel he was also done dirty. Ive seen a few discussions on the BSG deadlock discord coming down on him about it.
About the fabrication, what about making the new vipers with parts salvaged during the Great Cylon Turkey Shoot? A viper with Cylon engines and guns would really show how desperate the colonials are to get something up and running.
I would change story for that: Adama was once an Admiral and in charge of Pegasus for decade before fall of Twelve Colonies, during tests of Stealthstar he ordered to shoot on Novacek, but he autodestruct Stealthstar before that and ejected himself into space. Without Stealthstar missiles aimed and destroyed Cylon Raiders. That gives Cylons green light to begin The Plan. Adama is disgraced by Colonial Fleet and he is demoted to Commander during martial court. Fleet prosecutor Major Helena Cain wants death sentence for him but due to recent death of Zack Adama, jury puts William in charge of Battlestar Galactica along with his crew as honorable discharged from active duty as "Flagship" officer. Here comes Cain who is promoted in place of Adama and given command of Pegasus. Later it would be shown through flashback (for example in Razor) that Cain with Gina Inviere (Number Six seduced president) were blackmailing Adar to push Admirals to promote her to rank of Admiral and Gina to head of IT of Modernizing the Fleet. So Adama would not only face again a woman that destroyed his life, wanted to take it (twice, sic!) now on his place with his old ship in command.
I've always thought Pegasus was an essential part of Galactica's hero's journey. Yes, the ship's capabilities were poorly considered. Think of the character development the main cast underwent because of Pegasus though. Particularly Adama. Without his jarring split from the old Colonial military ways would that character have successfully metamorphosized into the leader that made later and better storylines believable and powerful? I don't think so. Doesn't his willingness to go to war with Cain over Helo and Tyrol lend credibility to the idea that this is the type of fiercely but sentimentally loyal man that would one day wait all alone in a Raptor for someone that may never return? The entire Pegasus arc was a singularly transformative time for most of the characters. In the grand scheme of things, indispensable. It is true that they treated it like so much eye-candy, however, and the real world cost led to Pegasus' strangely handled demise. I do not think it reaches the level of contrivance this video portrays though. The greatly diminished crews and therefore capabilities of the ships were established far enough in advance that they hardly seemed shoehorned in. Apollo was not exactly a tactical genius with years of experience commanding a fighting Battlestar either. No, Pegasus' destruction was done neatly enough to give it a bit more credit than this. Not perfect but not as bad as all this certainly. The one thing I agree with completely is that Apollo did not fire any nukes and that was just baffling. If I were at the helm of a mile-long, nuclear-armed, space-faring war machine, in a target rich environment, and headed for certain death... well, it would be atomic gotterdammerung start to finish. Hell, I'd have detonated the last one in the tube during that kamikaze maneuver just to ensure the total annihilation of my final enemy. But I'm the type that thinks the only important part of "pyrrhic victory" is "victory".
If you're going to die anyway, there is no reason to save ammo. _Take them with you._ In such situations, Maxim 37 applies more than ever: "There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'reload.'"
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
I absolutely LOVE the 'battered and beaten Pegasus' idea. That would have made the situations involving it way more believable and interesting.
Agreed
Agreed
Agreed
Yes. You could occupy 3 or 4 episodes involving two factions forming. Each one wants to cannibalize the other ship for repairs or upgrades where applicable. Taking a nuke before leaving could have meant the destruction of their manufacturing capabilities thus the ability to make full repairs. You could have some drama about Pegasus's stores being radiated and will make the crew sick if they try to repair with them... but some go ahead and sacrifice.
100% that is indeed a great idea.
I am actually with you on the idea of making the Pegasus a wounded giant and show it almost looking like Galactica from Season 4, I also think that if it's sacrifice going out guns blazing to have been a planned distraction rather than a surprise rescue would have felt better narratively. Galactica doing the whole Adama Maneuver while the Pegasus is going 1v6 with the Cylons providing a ticking clock before it is destroyed and the Cylons come to whip out Galactica and the escaping colony ships. Also yeah, could have been a moment of redemption for Cain if she had lived that long
I, too, like your "wounded Pegasus" idea. They could have even used it as an emotional hammer-blow when it appeared. Imagine the vipers move in towards the Pegasus. There are some battle scars visible, but the ship mostly looks intact. "It's like a dream." "It is a dream." And then the vipers pass to the opposite side, and there is the massive nuclear crater in a burned-out flight pod. The armor on that side is tattered with dozens of impacts from where the Cylons have been focusing their attacks against the compromised defenses. Hull frames are visible where armor has been stripped from less critical sections to plate back over strikes to the main hull. The music turns ominous and the camera zooms in to the pilots' faces, their expressions of joy turning to horror at the state of the ship. Nobody has to say it - it's not a dream, it's a nightmare. If they wanted to make it REALLY ominous, some of the plating over battle damage could have had recognizable markings similar to some of the civilian ships in the Rag Tag Fleet, strongly implying what we later learned about Cain's actions.
So basically, what happened when they found Earth in season 4.
The "plating from civilian fleet" patching up Pegasus is a cool and honestly creepy idea. Imagine Galactica's civilian fleet never knew about what Pegasus did to the Scyllia fleet, but rumors float around evertime they look at Pegasus's hull....they see a section on the Alligator head has Scyllia's name plate on it, the section of plate it was attached to used to patch damage on the wounded giant....and everyone can only wonder "Where DID they get that plating?"
In the novelization of "The Living Legend" (original series episode with Cain and the Pegasus), the Pegasus was a slightly older model of battlestar, and *was * found by Galactica & the fleet in much worse shape.
"..her hull was scarred and pitted, and Apollo could see where she had taken serious damage amidships... damage that had been repaired, but would have sent any other battlestar back for refitting. The Pegasus looked like an old, battered warrior. 'My Gods!' said Starbuck, 'What is holding her together? Spit?"
@@deloreanrc Would also make the story in Razor better. Give Cain no real choice. We either cannibalize the Scyllia fleet or we are done. At this point, the Pegasus is more or less dead in the water. FTL is down and they don't really have the resources to make replacement parts. They would have to cannibalize parts of the Pegasus to fix the FTL and until then the Cylons could jump in and finish them off... then they find the Scyllia fleet... All those replacement parts...
Now they have a real reason to be picked apart with bits slapped onto the Pegasus. Their FTL cannibalized to fix the damaged Pegasus' FTL drive, the hulls used as makeshift platting, the useful civilians drafted, food, water, and ammunition taken and whatever is left is melted down to fuel the Pegasus' refinery capabilities. She can still make new parts and vipers so long as she has the usable material to do it... and the Scyllia fleet just so happened to be usable material.
@@mattstorm360 I would add to that, that Cain's husband (or very important family member) is on the scyllia fleet but is lost during a "My ship is dead in the water, the cylons are bearing down on us, either your ship/the fleet jumps or we all die" forcing cain to make another hard choice, which adds to Cain's mental instability.
you brought up some good points i hadn’t considered before. i think the whole suicide run over new caprica would have been a lot less stupid if the ship had already been on its last legs, then it could have been properly part of the rescue plan and not some spur of the moment decision.
That would have required better writing sadly.
Another way to handle the destruction of the Pegasus is *random bad luck* by having a BaseStar _accidentally_ jump in directly in its path and the collision cripple the Pegasus.
That gives the "if only" _they could have won this_ if the ship had been a hundred metres to the side.
Have Apollo use a sound strategy and be winning the battle up until that moment when the dice just landed the wrong way and he got snake eyes.
He's lined up the BaseStars on approach so that they are in a line obscuring each other from him and can't bring their full firepower to bear because they're blocking each other (having been focused on Galactica in a perpendicular firing line formation to pound Galactica with concentrated fire) and he's taking them out one by one with everything Pegasus has got.
Such as firing nukes with a simultaneous salvo of regular missiles to soak up the AA, through the gaps to detonate near BaseStars further back in the line formation to take out their raiders and mess with their systems _as his opening move._ ....
Or a couple of nuke armed Raptors jumping in and going 'suprise' while also launching drones ect to confuse the Cylons for a few seconds.
Basically a clever strategy so the fans don't want Apollo court-martialled.
Apollo's plan is working, the Cylons have been put in a bad position and his misdirection (the hallmark of all the BSG wins against the odds) is working.
Remember the Cylons expected to take on both BattleStars at once, they would have a lot of firepower there, that's why Galactica is taking such a hit.
Then the BaseStar reserves jump in but Apollo had planned for that as it was only two BaseStars ...
"Watch the countdown clock, the two BaseStars guarding the far side of the planet will jump in blind in _X_ (nods to Sharon).
Have the tubes reloaded with nukes by then.
Remember we can take them as long as we take down at least _Y_ BaseStars already here beforehand."
It's working, the first BaseStar went up straight away with bullseyes on its central junction, and others are variously damaged and crippled as they get hit with overshots from the first BaseStar.
They stop firing on Galactica as they desperately manoeuvre to try and get clear shots at Pegasus while false drone readings have them confused.
Raptors had created fake Pegasus readings opposite side from Galactica and then on the far side of the firing line of BaseStars, so the Cylons assumed the readings of the real Pegasus were another fake until the BaseStar first in line could see it directly, which was the same moment it started taking hits.
Have it a showcase of how Raptors as scouts and EW platforms (and stand off launchers) are useful in harrassment if used intelligently.
They've thrown the Cylons into disarray and inflicted enough damage to the BaseStars present that the reinforcements can be handled.
Except when the two BaseStars jump in one is in a direct collision course and it's not a deliberate kamikaze strategy by the Cylons - the BaseStar also tries to evade but its too late for both ships.
The BaseStar actually does more damage by trying to get out of the way as one of its spires impacts behind the armoured head of Pegasus, hitting the flank of the ship that's not as reinforced and going in deep, maybe hitting the engine clusters.
[this is to explain while later on Galactica can ram the station, the prow of the ship is tough enough, in _this case_ it was a offside hit]. It could also jump in with its spires entangled or whatever, but that might give the impression it was deliberate. This wasn't superior Cylon planning, this was a fluke.
The BaseStar is completely destroyed and Pegasus is now a write off, it's never going to jump again (at least not with battlefield repairs).
*How the dialogue could play out.*
"Frack..damage report"
"The lower brace [sound of horror] _is gone,_... we even get the jump drives back online, we're splitting in two."
Apollo makes the call to abandon ship and is smart about that as well.
Over the PA: "Raptors launch at your call, the shuttles jump from inside the flight pods once the Raptors are gone [foreshadowing the _final_ battle]. It doesn't matter anymore.
There's nothing that can save her.
(Save yourselves, we still need you for Galactica.)"
Then to the Bridge crew "Is Galactica going to make it? We need to buy them the time"
Looks at Pegasus "The cost has already been too high, let's at least make it worth it."
Minor character(s) from Pegasus "Galactica's starting to spool up its jump drives.
We can set everything here to automatic. Galactica needs you too sir, go. We'll leave _when we're able."_
Apollo understands "you sure...?" and salutes them with tears in the corners of his eyes.
And then runs like hell for his Raptor.
The minor characters as they aim Pegasus to inflict maximum damage on the remaining BaseStars "Y'know we almost had this. Luck is .... well luck."
[What about the second BaseStar that jumped in near but didn't collide? The remaining crew could wait till everyone's clear and then fire all the nukes at too close a range at it]
Then Pegasus's sacrifice isn't like the death of a character in the Aliens franchise, ie down to their own stupidity.
It's fate cruelly taking down a magnificent character when they had so much potential left, but they still make a damn good accounting of themselves.
It's a heroic death.
Better planned and written than the 'writers' for the show.
Get a life!
@@DonWan47being a badass writer sounds like a pretty good life to me.
This sounds so much better honestly. Thank you for the good read man!
My checklist for how I'd use the Pegasus.
1 make it newer but comparable to the Galactiga.
2 have damage and limits for its capabilities.
3 have it's fate unknown. Either the ship disappears during the battle ( or destroyed with heroic sacrifice by it's crew) or it's fate is unknown by virtue of the fleet leaving the colony during the battle.
Either way limits are it's greatest strength here.
As far as i remember, your point 3 is exactly what happend in the original. After a heroic fight the pegasus vanished, never to be seen again - but no wreackage was found. So it might appear at a later date (never happend though).
@@oliverurbanik9647 yes but in my version for the redo either it's destroyed on screen or the exodus fleet leave before the Battle is over leaving it's fate unknown.
I want to believe that when the Pegasus showed up, which was also being hunted by Cylon Basestars, that the two perusing Cylons fleets combined which is why we see the Basestar fleets just simply balloon in size.
Somebody once said that the Galactica herself (not the President) was the dying leader from the prophesy.
I really like this.
if they had upgraded Galactica and "pulled a HMS Hood" where Lee was not on board it would be better. the lucky shot no one saw coming.
It is a glorious ship and i will allow no slander of the Pegasus Slander of its captains On the other hand will be endorsed and the decision to sacrifice it was moronic
Especially the way they did it. Nobody with a week of tactical experience would fight that battle the way Lee did. At least try survive not just go and ram that basestar. Charge in the way he did was the way to go, bringing into play that insane forward battery ( which is indeed a glorious scene with that zoom out and Bear's music ) but then maneuver to either shield the Galactica thus taking off some pressure or just onto the opposite side of the basestars like they did during the battle of the Resurrection ship. It was shown that the Pegasus itself can handle 4 basestars so the two of them would've had a solid chance. If things go south you can always ram them but at least try.
I agree, it was done dirty and I will never forgive them. That being said, its still my favourite scifi show and nobody was able to come up with a better looking ship than the RDM version of Pegasus.
I always questioned why a Battlestar has fabricators and raw material silos when it’s primary job is to have lots of guns and armour and fly in hard and fast. Those fabricators and raw materials add mass that doesn’t serve a function in an active firefight. After action or before action, sure replenishing vipers or fanning spare parts make sense, and the simulators ought to be standard on any ship for practice and simulating practice engagements… but Pegasus always smacked of a mobile training base. A ship that can fight but is to valuable to commit in war time when ground target viper fab and pilot training bases would be vulnerable. Pegasus has a good blitz ability when she runs forward, but since Adama failed to keep up momentum I have to assume her forward guns are her party piece and her other guns lack the slugging power of Galactica… something people have cited as wrong, but when I look at her silhouette I notice her back is overshadowed by her engines and alligator head…
Either way, Pegasus is one ship that you ideally don’t want getting damaged if it is your only source of viper and pilot replacement. More battle lean BS’s whose only function is to fight an enemy can fill that role. Pegasus can fill that role but if the battle outcome is uncertain Pegasus would be the first ship pulled off the front line… and thus it is Cains perfect command ship that allows the top brass to pull her out of tactical engagements and keep her bloodlust in check.
I wish a "the other batttlestar" line could of made it into the episodes.
An interesting question that has bugged me for a while. Is why didn't the Colonies refurbished Galactica's unused flight pod into a version of The Pegasus's fabrication matrices.
The same fabrication matrices could build something as complex as a Viper mark 7, There is no way they couldn't reprogram them to fabricate the components for a new one.
Especially with the colonization of New Caprica. During the first few months when the Colonias were breaking ground.
That would have been the best place to start increasing the colonial's industrial capacity needed for the next stage of colonization of the planet.
Then again maybe that's just the Factorio player in me talking.
No scholar on bsg, but I'm assuming it would be handwaved bc "that level of sophistication would require mid level equipment that they didn't have" i.e. mercury foundries required planet based support to construct in the first place.
(Though honestly, that level of tech on basically a battlecarrier never made sense in the first place. They're frigging huge and already packed to the gills just to function. How the hell you going to shoehorn an industrial plant into an even smaller one?)
And I get it, first time I found out that it could mfr, I went into mental starcrack mode. Up the tech tree we go lol
Baltar just wanted hot and cold interns and couldn't be bothered to do things like provide enough food or keep a defense perimeter on the planet.
@@blackc1479 TBF, the Galactica is 1,500 meter long, and that flight pod is about 1/3rd the length of the ship, so you could fit something in there if you really wanted to.
a better argument is that they might not of had the spare power to run a onboard factory
@@8vantor8they likely had power because Galatica was stripped down in prep for museum service
@@paulrasmussen8953 and one of the things you would do for that is off load fuel and possibly strip down power plants for parts on other ships
Part of this is, I think, due to Moore's habit of introducing things into the story without having a clear idea of how they resolve going forward. The problem with the Pegasus on its introduction to the reboot series is not the ship itself, but that Admiral Caine and her crew have broken in a bad way morally and that Caine outranks Adama. The original series Caine was not a bad person, but a glory hound and very charismatic over Adama's cautiousness on preserving the remnant of known humanity. Once the reboot series gets rid of Caine, without losing the Pegasus with her, they had written themselves into a bit of a corner with a now OP ship with the human problem somewhat mitigated. Also, the battle scarred Pegasus idea could have been introduced anytime after she joins the fleet, especially during the incident where Lee is forced to take command of the Pegasus.
Given the remake series was far more fleshed out in its world, and the military far more organized and professional in military function, making Caine outrank Adama was really the only way to introduce believable drama / conflict into the mix. If Caine had been subordinate to Adama, he would have just used his authority to keep her in line.
Also, the series already had its share of underhanded undermining underlings in Zarek and Baltar; another one would have been unnecessarily repetitive.
Caine could still "outrank" Adama without actually needing to be an Admiral. Now this would have likely needed a much older Commander to have achieved that rank before Adama but instead we got the incredibly aggressive version of Caine. @@AaronCMounts
I like the idea of a damaged Pegasus, one that’s structural members are shot and jumps are limited. It would give more impetus to stay on New Caprica and when she sacrificed herself it was with the knowledge she would likely never jump again anyway.
It would have also provided more impact to the compound damage that Galactica was taking over the later series.
I think that the problem with the Pegasus is that it was too far advanced in comparison to the Galactica. If it had been the same model (as it was in the original show) as the Galactica or a single generation ahead it would have been a lot more balanced. However, with a lack of visible damage, not using its capabilities during a deadly fight and it being a far more capable platform than the ship it was sacrificing itself for the episode where it is destroyed just seems so nonsensical that I would rather go back to the original series where it got lost trying to divert some Cylon base-stars away from the Colonial fleet.
I agree. Though I think it would have been far better if the Pegasus was a FAR SMALLER vessel so it automatically fit into a secondary support role. That way it being lost in combat or being sacrificed in a wildly insane maneuver would have been far more believable and acceptable.
@@tom95001ah, like the Orion Class that sacrifices itself in Blood&Chrome? Or maybe it could have been a Gunstar!
4 minutes in and I already have images of upgunned and uparmored Galactica thanks to Pegasus fabricating new components for her. Oh, what could've been. From season 3 onwards Galacitca could've easily had both her flight pods operational.
But the show as is is still the best s-f that graced our television ever. Well, perhaps joint number 1 with The Expanse.
If I remember TOS correctly, after escaping the genocide, the Galactica was in desperate need of rebuilding its Viper corps, but what they actually needed was more pilots, not more Vipers as they had plenty of latter and lacked the former, leading to a Cylon pilot whining about how human tactics suddenly turned bizarre and they couldn't turkey-shoot them anymore. The implication, I think, was that they could always build more Vipers. This was actually backed up by several episodes. In one, it was stated that they needed a month on a suitable planet to replenish the fleet's food stocks, their agriculture was that good, which spoke of a high technological level. They built/established the agro ship because they couldn't afford the month, what with the Cylons chasing them. And then, in a later episode they revealed the Delta Flyer before the Delta Flyer was a thing with an upgraded recon Viper that included a fully functional AI.
So their manufacturing ability was high but not omnipotent. In one episode, they permanently lost Long Scan, forcing them to use more and longer-ranged patrols, which increased overall fuel consumption.
But that was all years ago and I don't know if I'm remembering everything right.
One of the differences between TOS BSG and the reboot, was that you could see things improving and changing in the fleet (as much as a show of the time would allow). Vipers could be replaced without any difficulty. Yes, it was people that was the limiting factor, that's why women became pilots.
We can't talk about the Pegasus without mentioning Razor. That movie should have been incorporated into seasons 3 and 4 in the form of a series of flashbacks. Would have made the later seasons (that had too many filler episodes anyway) on par with season 1.
That, and make the Pegasus equal in strength to the Galactica. That way it doesn't seem so illogical for Adama to keep his flag on the Galactica instead of moving it to the more modern and more valuable battlestar.
Flag officers are rarely purely llogical. In fact, many old men are oddly sentamental.
I agree with what you're saying about a broken down Pegasus would have been a better intro to the ship. But honestly I think that the events of Razor could have happened in the series proper and given the Pegasus the out that the original ship had. Or having the Hybrid Basestar showing up around New Caprica and getting a Razor Part Deux and that's where we lose the girl, it'd give the setup more meaning and tie things together.
I think a better idea would have balanced it out with the Pegasus is to make it a resource hog. This ship was made post-Cylon War and was built with the industrial might of the colonials to back it up. Give it enough times (ten years or so) and people will forget logistics and think just having a big enough gun will win wars (looking at you Russia). Meanwhile, the Galactica was made during the Cylon War when resources were more scarce, therefore it was made to be more self-reliant. Therefore the Pegasus is more powerful than the Galactica but it burns through resources faster than the Galactica and will only be able to fight a few battles before having to refuel and rearm while the Galactica is able to fight.
Therefore, instead of a weird sacrifice, the Colonials sent it to its death trying to take as many Cylons with it as they could not afford to keep it as it brought the fleet in the red due to the amount of resources it was burning through. (Though this only works if the show slowly converts the civilian fleet and modifies them to support manufacturing facilities to support each other and the fleet. Like repair ships to modified workshops and hospital ships).
I really like the idea of the networking and hacking being more of an issue and leading to the ship's ultimate downfall. While the whole "death by a thousand cuts" idea sounds really cool, I think having the Pegasus and Cain initially appear to be anything other than the model of peak colonial military does too much to weaken its initial arc. The impossibility of victory and Cain's blatant superiority over Adama in rank, armament, and seemingly discipline brings a lot both to the stakes, and to shine a light on the very human flaws and sins of the characters aboard. Cain and crew didn't turn cruel because they were forced to entirely by circumstance and the need to survive; they did it because it was ultimately a very human thing to do, and that doesn't really work if it shows up looking like it just flew through "Year of Hell".
I think the networking could fix the severe amount of ass pull needed to cause the ship to lose, while making Lee's decision still somewhat stupid, but not unbelievably so. It'd still feel like an ass pull, but basically any way of killing the Pegasus would.
Also a deus ex machina isn't always a storytelling mistake.
I really, really like the idea of Pegasus arriving as a broken colossus. Imposing limits, and remembering to work within them always makes storytelling more interesting. A huge, modern, heavily armed warship capable of doing her own replenishment and some limited repair on the run would be a HUGE Cylon target. She should have arrived with a patchwork of hasty field repairs, damaged weapons systems, I quite like the image that popped into my head when you described her being short an engine nacelle and a flight pod, all this damage pulling her inexorably towards a death by a thousand cuts, but in her arrival still bringing the Colonial Fleet a massive dose of hope as, even battered and broken, she's at least as well equipped to protect this last remaining gathering of humanity as their current defender, the Galactica. It makes writing her out of the story easier too, as, if her back's broken already, she's got a glass jaw. Every hit could very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back
It would have worked better regarding the Pegasus if she had been just as old as Galactica or even the same class of ship. Maybe have her be even more worn down than Galactica was. The sacrifice of Pegasus could have easily been accepted for me if that had been the case.
My idea is that she's a newer ship but of similar size to the Galactiga. They could have even used an update of the original Columbia Battlestar to show the two. But overall limit it's capabilities and make it's sacrifice worth it.
In og Pegasus and Galatica were the same class
@@paulrasmussen8953 I was referring to the re-imagined BSG.
@chrisdufresne9359 yes and i was agreeing. At best pegasus could be one gen removed for the jupiters.
Something else they could’ve done is instead of the Pegasus being destroyed at new caprica, it instead is heavily wounded and in a similar state as the rebel baseship, with maybe a base star piercing the center of the Pegasus with one of its prongs completely ripping out the fabrication bays and maybe tearing off a flight pod or at least damaging a large chunk of the ship. while the fleet is celebrating, admiral adama is grieving over what he assumes to be the loss of Pegasus with all hands until they jump back, Pegasus barley survived but is in even worse condition than the galactica, Pegasus retains a lot of its weapons but can barley take anymore hits without completely caving in, practically a glass canon, Then galactica has to once again do the heavy lifting and I’d say geata and zareck wouldn’t have much trouble with Pegasus anymore when they throw their mutiny since Pegasus can’t take any serious hits from galactica batteries, then at the battle of the Ionian nebula Pegasus has to practically hide behind galactica as it tries to hit the basestars. That way we can still have the cool ass bits of a battlestar firing offensively instead of being completely on the defense with flak. And during the battle of the colony Pegasus can either remain with the fleet as they make way to “earth” or they could join galactica in doing a double pronged assault, each ship on opposite sides of the colony with galactica ramming it while Pegasus tries to draw its fire with its main batteries firing at non critical components of the colony. Idk I just wish so badly Pegasus wasn’t destroyed and made it to the finale alongside the grand old lady
I loved the final battle of the reboot Pegasus. It was a hybrid with a little bit of the last battle of the Pegasus seen in the original TV series mixed with a lot of the ship's final battle in the Richard Hatch post original series novels.
3:24 that is incorrect. There is a scene where Adamma and Roselin are talking and one of them states that the manufacturing on Pegasus just turned out their first Viper MK.VII. and the other replies, "we are starting to rebuild" or something. It was well after Cains death etc. After that, i dont remember the manufacturing being mentioned.
I despised the way Caine was handled in the reboot. She was a Military Officer, as written by a civilian that has clue zero , about how a real Military works.
Technically, they remade Cain into an Ahab character that had a massive hate for Cylons and that is what drove her. She was not acting like a cold calculating millitary commander of a Battlestar (contrasting her from Adama) but gifted but obsessed character that had been broken by the events in the “war”. I can understand why others don’t like it but it is not uncommon in military characters in fiction.
RONALD D MOORE was in the Navy
@@mem1701movies Did he have a direct hand in adapting the character? If so then I am really disappointed.
I think there's ample precedent for characters like Cain. Cf. SSG Robert E. Lee Barnes from Platoon.
@@erikawhelan4673 I'm sure there is. Though I've never heard of any Admiral summarily executing their XO on the Bridge. However, the list of Badmirals in fiction is certainly longer then the list of good Flag Officers.
I do agree that the Pegasus was waisted but only provisionally. The only reason for its appearance was to resupply the Galactica with pilots , Raptors and Vipers. As far as the story goes there’s no other reason for it to be there.
Really, they could’ve, maybe should’ve, had a small group of ships encounter the Fleet, maybe with a small hastily converted transport serving as an ad hoc carrier. If the show had been written after Deadlock, I’d even suggest this newer, smaller fleet being protected by a couple of Adamants or even a hastily reactivated Artemis or Atlas (they could’ve played it off as those ships also being converted to serve as museums or something)
Of course, such a thing can only exist in the realm of fan fiction now, but it’s still cool to think about.
@@themightyalpaca313As a _Deadlock_ player, I shudder to imagine an _Atlas_ joining the fleet. Rarely used them, because even compared to a battlestar, they are so _slow!_ Might as well transfer the Vipers to _Galactica_ and abandon the damn thing.
@@ReddwarfIV "The army you've got is never the army you want." Gotta make do with what you have.
That said, as someone who hasn't watched the series, I have to ask: could _all_ of the civilian ships keep up with Galactica at full sublight? Or was she already the slowest ship in the convoy? If not, Galactica could speed ahead to "become the battle line," as a previous episode of SCI put it, and the Atlas could stay back with the convoy to pick off anything that gets past Galactica's defenses or tries to flank.
@@CiaranMaxwell The general idea was that the Fleet would jump away as soon as the enemy appeared, they would never have to keep up with Galactica during a battle. That said, they don't have nearly as much mass to shift, so most civilian vessels in BSG actually have far more favourable acceleration curves than battlestars do.
Certainly, all the civilian vessels you get to control in _Deadlock_ are capable of covering a _lot_ of space in one turn, whilst being quite maneuverable as well.
@@ReddwarfIV Expanding on this, the Colonial One (or its similar class of ships) can easily outrun an Artemis on full burn (Boost Thrusters, which iirc disables the weapons as well). The Artemis-class was faster than the Jupiters at their prime, can't even imagine how slower Galactica would've been with her age.
As a lot of others are saying, I too agree that the idea of the Pegasus being a battered wounded and torn up leviathan that has limped its way to the fleet would of done wonders for the issues. At that point it not some over powered super ship, it would provide some help and be useful yet as you stated be something that is clearly dying a slow and painful death. It would also of made the worse lady ever's choices to start stripping civi-ships for materials made more sense, cause I mean still stupid as hell but at least then it adds a layer of the psycho trying to get enough material to get her revenge boat back up to snuff.
And it would of made the Pegasus's death more well interesting and cool, instead of a super ship just getting tossed aside or lost for idiotic reasons. It is a ship and crew doing a final stand, a one final voyage to make a difference. A ship going down with a fight, instead of dying with a whimper.
Eh... he's right. I hate to admit it, but he's right.
Another class of Battlestar showing up, like one of the other main-line Battlestars, would have worked out better for plot reasons.
Yeah, the sacrifice of the Pagasus was stupid in the miniseries the way it was handled. They introduced this highly advanced ship, eventually solved the loyality issues by killing Caine way too early - for my taste - and then they had this ship and did not know what to do with it. From a logical standpoint it would have made much more sence to move most of the staff and the civilians to the Pegasus und when they tried to settle on New Caprtica they could have salvaged the way more damaged Galactica for parts to bulld up the colony. And when the Cylons returned they could have used the now almost useless Galactica for the distraction suicide run. Making the Pegasus the same class as the Galactica, like in the orginal show - or using the wounded giant approach would have made it more believable.
In universe, what if _one_ of the reasons that the Cylons attacked was because the newest BattleStars were so overpowered versus BaseStars?
The Cylons had modelled that the Colonial fleet would soon be able to beat the Cylon fleet in a straight shooting match.
Add that to the Bulldog storyline and the Cylons came up with The Plan out of fear.
@@kresnik_ssGiven they all could resurrect why focus on defense when they could swarm an enemy with waves of fighters that shoot nukes? They could hyperjump around their enemies all day and bomb them even without electronic warfare or hacking abilities.
👌😎👍Very cool and very nicely greatly well done and informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and format provided on every thing on and about the Battlestar Pegasus and of the reson for Her demise, A job very fabulously well done indeed Sir!.
A lot of your points are ill thought-out. 1) The Pegasus construction systems aren't replicators, they need resources that require a full mining team because it's one thing to mine an ice-like substance, something else entirely to dig into a planet's crust to extract minerals that themselves then need to be refined. There's a whole process before you get to construction. 2) Re-arming and Re-armouring Galactica would require a dry dock, that isn't something you can do in the field, especially when the Cylons are hunting you.
3) A sneak attack could have finished off the Cylons for good just as easily as a brute force attack from Pegasus. The decision not to was based upon a moral code rather than a military code so the outcome would be no different. 4) Costs. An entirely spurious critique given that's part of a show runner's job. 5) Not killing off Galactica because the titular ship. This is precisely what RDM wanted to do to Voyager in Star Trek Voyager. I get that you didn't like it and that's your opinion but don't make spurious arguments to justify your dislike.
Whilst not mentioned in the show, I think it kinda obvious that as Adama Older left for his suicide mission, he left all the nukes for Adama Younger. And again when Adama Younger left for his suicide mission, he again left the nukes for the Vipers as the Vipers would basically hapless knocking out Basestars with kinetics and chemicals only when protecting the small fleet for jump prep.
This is a really good view of things that totally slipped my mind. That makes a lot more sense than just not using them.
@@scienceinsanity6927 Yeah the nukes are probably the only thing Pegasus can't make more - that's why they use them so sparingly. They are basically only employed by Colonials when their use is justified by the main goal - finding Earth before Cylons in a way that Cylons don't find it too, not actually when the number of survivors actually getting to Earth is at risk.
Pretty much the only time when they differ from this is when taking out the Resurrection hub, and if I remember it right then they use Cylon warheads and in the finale when attacking the Colony - even then it is linked to finding the new Earth.
And on later times they often make a big deal out of getting the political approve to use nuclear weapons (and/or weapons off mass destruction) from the president - that might have made them politically unusable as Roslin was on New Caprica. The actual launch procedure doesn't feed physical input from civilian authorities if remember it right.
So many things I don't remember - clear indication I have to rewatch the series!
Pegasus being such a beast was actually a huge problem until the death of Cain. The problems with her death are problems with the writing of Cain's death, not the Pegasus. Once new Caprica became settled both ships were equally worthless with inadequate skeleton crews thanks to President Baltar. BSG had a lot of great writing and some bad writing; the decision to give the audience the beast only to take it away was great writing and timed to happen at the same time as losing 1/5th of the human race at the same time was a powerful combination and falls under great writing.
Still, way Pegsus was sent off was just bad.
My mom got me the BSG Collector's Edition for Christmas (no idea where she managed to find that) and ive been watching an episode or two every day.
Just finished Season 1 and im a bit anxious to continue. Such an amazing cliffhanger.
You may enjoy, personally I found it more and more of a slog to get through as the show progressed. I won't say more in case of spoilers.
I agree the battered pegasus would make a lot more sense. A story plot of we are always getting hacked so have to keep running and couldn't save all the civillians we could. Then trying to fix the hacking problems only to have them fail during a battle. Would really keep to the theme of the show and just not have every fix onboard. The influx in trained pilots and crew would allow the addition of a bunch of cast memebers and also solved some training issues. perhaps some crew that know how to fabricate. Instead of a machine its a group of dedicated engineers that can keep old galatica afloat easier as its not relying on the networking tech they aren't as good as fabricating but pits them against baltar to solve the computer issues.
3:20 I find the arguement, that the Pegasus' production line could be retooled to basically produce everything needed, to be pretty weak. The Pegasus' production line was likely highly limited. She is a batllestar after all, not an industrial ship. As such, her production line was likely highly specialized to take up as little room as possible and need as little energy as possible. Especially complex parts, such as different engine designs, or parts that simply aren't part of a Viper, like heavy armor, likely couldn't have been produced on the Pegasus.
And the argument that Pegasus got nuked and needed repairs, thus making it highly likely that they used the production line to make those repairs, is also pretty weak, considering Galactica ate a nuke just as Pegasus did at the very start of the war, and she kept on trucking as well. Add to that that Pegasus just enetered a yard period and probably had replacement parts rolled onto it and you have yourself a good argument why Pegasus did not use her production line to repair her own damage.
Agreed. Even if the machinery itself was theoretically capable of being adapted to produce a wide range of items, there would have been a number of items for which physical constraints from the size of the machinery, and the space available to store the material inputs and outputs, would have made fabrication impossible. There's also the issue of obtaining the necessary materials to fabricate certain items to begin with.
About the fabrication thing. Well I could imagne you say you don't have the resources. I could imagne that being on the run could prevent you from mining or gather resources other ways.
Still I agree it could have been used in a lot of ways.
I like the idea you present with the Pegasus being heavly damaged.
Did you know, that the German actress Nastassia KInski was rumored to have been offered the part of Admiral Kane, but she declined. I personally think she would have made an awesome, and evil, Admiral Kane.
Dude this argument literally popped up in a Facebook group I was in the other day.
Had Pegasus survived, would the fleet even needed to have found another planet to colonize? Build some space colonies and new fabrication facilities in the middle of nowhere, and every generation or two build another small group of habs and fabrication facilities somewhere else as a sort of civilizational von Neumann probe.
I always wish they would've let the original Galactica get destroyed as a season finale, and move the flag to the Pegasus (maybe a battered one... great huge battle with damage, maybe still even the New Caprica line, just done differently), and rename it Galactica. the "factory" opens up the storyline, etc. However, given they were limiting seasons, it really wasn't necessary. But one could dream... :)
I do agree with your analysis about character and such, my version would've been a different show, and I do love the show, it did have to go.
6:42 the issue is how it was removed It was only destroyed because lee had Avoided using any tactical sense during the battle of new caprica, not to mention he left his vipers behind. While, you can argue that it was to defend the civilian ships. I can tell you that the moment a baseship was deployed. All those viper pilots would die screaming And the civilian ships not long after A better option would Be to make it appear as if they had been taken out in battle. But rather have it be an emergency jump This could split the narrative Making it so lee has to learn how to command it in. The absence of his father And still giving the fleet the same amount of hopelessness and the necessity of cooperating with the rebels
You could have a season finale of them. Finally meeting up.
A great reunion between the two ships I am also biased I think the mercury class is cooler than tree jupiter class
Cylon fighters can hyperjump. It would be really dangerous to leave civilians unprotected for any time. A basestar can deploy fighters very quickly.
@@richardarriaga6271 Said civilian ships have remained more or less undetected in that nebula for months And even then, as I said, if they were found by a raider, it's a only a matter of time before a base star is deployed. And the moment it's there everyone's gonna die screaming
There's one very simple change I'd make to balance Galactica vs Pegasus:
Galactica was made to work with minimal automation, Pegasus wasn't. Sure, Pegasus has more raw brute force available but with its automated systems compromized, it's a lot less efficient running on its fallback solutions, needs more personnel per horsepower so to speak.
A few lines added here or there how they tried to reactivate automated systems and they went haywire from trojans re-emerging from who knows where into systems thought to be running on clean code. About how hard it was to manually reload the improvized magazines shoved into lobotomized autoloaders, manually input firing solutions with far too few juryrigged old systems bolted into places they never were made for.
And bingo, as long as there's unity, Pegasus is the big bad toastershredder we know and love, but throw some (inner?) conflict into the situation and Pegasus grinds to a screeching halt while Galactica barely changes.
What a neat way! :)
I think another good idea could of been to make the Pegasus a nother old battle star maybe even an Artemis class as a nod to the old series and giving the og Pegasus a spiritual one last gun hoe hurra
Pegasus was brought in for one reason only. in the original series that was one of the most popular arcs. But the original story wasn't that Galactica was being decommissioned, it was the Capricia Flagship. so in the original finding a second of the 12 Battlestars was a big thing. The remake made it worse for them. Instead of a old but fully functional Battlestar they were in a borderline gutted ship. A museum and gift shops in place of a flight pod no real armaments, it was very much implied that the only reason Galactica survived was because it wasn't worth prioritizing as a target. for Pegasus it was a desperate call for a blind jump and grandfathered "tactical genius" of General Cain that resulted in the Pegasus avoiding the Cylon fleet. Admiral Cain then begins to plan for revenge very much as Adama had planned and stopped because Lee said the president was alive?
It's kinda weird to compare original and reboot as the original Adama seemed like he was a council member and the military commander so chairman of the joint chiefs type. where in the reboot Adama was just one commander among many which required the President role to fill the gap of what the character design of this Adama lacked.
To fix the fabrication issue, have Pegasus with a self repair system and a cache of Vipers they had secured. The self repair system was one of the many new features which made Galactica obsolete, and the Vipers, well, are self explanatory.
Pegasus in many ways was a Mary Sue ship of the series. It seemed that no matter how much damage the Cylons threw at it, it just seemed to make her angrier and stronger.
Unlike Galactica which slowly fell apart with every engagement.
There was reason behind Cylon CNP, you know....
Whenever you get to the second part with your rewrite, here's a thought: not only have her come in beaten and bruised, limping and licking her wounds... Have them having to make the decision to juggle using their fabrication and other resources focused on not ONLY the Pegasus AND the Galactica... But trying to keep the civilian vessels I'm sure could use some help, too. Death by a thousand cuts.
Clearly I don't understand BSGboot fans, because I'm not sure what about this is supposed to be upsetting and prompt me to unsubscribe. But given how often it gets suggested, maybe it's time to un-ring the bell and leave.
How I'd have handled it: keep the arrival of the Pegasus as is. It's the newest version of a Battlestar, has all the bells and whistles. By end of the two parter over the Resurrection Ship, she's taken a beating, but her fabricators are fine, and both she and Galactica are brought back to their "base specs", but there's underlying issues with the subframe of Pegasus that they got during that battle that will limit things, and they have to keep on top of - things that they cannot fix "on the fly" without a dry dock.
They get to New Caprica and think, "Great: we can dry dock the Beast AND then the Bucket to fix the big things in the Beast, and retrofit the Bucket with some fabs." They ACTUALLY put a small fabricator onto Galactica first, something to allow for SMALL scale production, in the sealed off unused launch wing, as bringing THAT back to spec would have taken too long and been needless with the overguned and staffed Pegasus. They get this done and dusted, launch Galactica back up to orbit, then are about to bring down Pegasus (who was on guard) when the Cylons find New Caprica. Both Battlestars fly away with half the warriors of the fleet, and the show continues to the end of that situation as it did IN the shown episodes.
Except that the Pegasus is used more completely IN the rescue, holding off the Basestars, and when it comes time to leave, BOTH manage to FTL away.
However, on arrival with the rescued rag-tag fleet, the spine of Pegasus breaks (al la what WILL happen to Galactica in the future... basically, show us a forshadowing without being too in your face). They strip down Pegasus, and manage to save a lot of it's parts and bits - even manage to build a SMALL fabricator ship out of part of it.
By the end, Pegasus "died a heroes death" and with two SMALL fabricator ships (one Galactica herself) for repairing and making new Vipers, maybe Raptors, but not to wholesale reclad the outside of Galactica again, and the other being for spare parts and Fleet repairs... it would allow the show to retain it's "if we take TOO much damage we're done", rather than "if we continue to gain damage we're done", but not have it be the same refrain over and over.
We have a new ship made from Pegasus, maybe two... they might have been able to salvage enough to have a "flying wing" Carrier for more Viper launches, but it wouldn't be a tankie ship like it was... add some versitility to Galactica, and allow for the writers to no longer need to focus QUITE so much on "repairs are an issue". That part would come back as a big problem in the last season when the Cylon Rebels discover that Galactica has the beginnings of her own "broken back" issue.
8:27 Damn, Galactica with full armour plating sure look beautiful. Second to the Blood & Chrome version Galactica, of course.
I love the introduction of Pegesus. It is a great scene. I love that it stuck around because it sticks a finger in the eye of status quo is god trope.
You are correct it is over the top in terms of ability like fabrication. They could have had it escape with half the crew and missing viper pilots.
I like the idea of the wounded beast because, as you said, it required stupidity to kill off the ship vs a loss that doesn't make people look stupid.
Imagine Cain wanting to transfer her flag to Galactica because it was the better ship. Imagine the oh shit when the assessment is done and the better ship on paper is revealed to be worse off than Galactica. More fights and more bad hits. The sacrifice play makes more sense when Pegesus is on borrowed time anyway.
I do disagree with what you say about disposing of plot elements once the story is done because it makes for bad continuity. Character has sibling is shown once never again. Makes it look like the writers forgot. Its good to revisit those stories for b plots that continue through the show.
I generally agree with everything you say though i do irk a little with the Deus Ex Machina being a negative. Yes it can be done poorly and has been done poorly on numerous occasions but I get a little annoyed at the assumption that it's always a bad thing. It's fine if used appropriately. I personally had no issues with the introduction of Pegasus. I'm more annoyed that they barely used it to any good affect in show. Largely just relegated to examples of poor command structure and the occasional side story. Least we can all agree the death of Pegasus was bloody horrendous.
Adding on to everyone else, I'm loving the idea of a catered barely limping giant, a shell of what was the hopes of colonial fleet.
Discovering a battered Pegasus resolves the issue of its eventual demise while also still allowing the fun storytelling of Adama suddenly being second-in-command.
10:19 There is another option have the cylons field another form of base ship in deadlock the cylons regularly role out counters to the colonials with the argos and cratus class basestars
i thought i was going to disagree with this. I Didnt, you raised many good points. Great video
This video answers its own questions very capably. So a lot of this is just bad criticism. On some of the other points:
> First moments of unquestionable hope
This is already a misreading. You Can't Go Home Again, Hand of God, Colonial Day, Home Part 2, Final Cut and Flight of the Pheonix all have extremely strong moments of hope and payoff in the series.
Also I don't like engaging with "plot hole" criticisms unless they're massive plot holes (which I don't think this ship presents), but what the hell, let's do it on a couple points.
> Fabricating new armor panels
If we take as read that "fabricating new vipers" necessarily means the Pegasus has sufficient capacity to repair itself (not clear and not established; fixing the damage of the nuke from Scorpia isn't shown and could just as well mean "fixing the electronic wiring and nuclear shielding" as it could "making gigantic new armor panels"). Also, I'd note that the pegasus doesn't turn out its first viper for weeks after it's introduced into the fleet, implying that its manufacturing capacities are slower than you give it credit for or that it doesn't have the manpower sans Galactica to effectively replace its losses.
> If there was more ambiguity about the capacity of the ship
There is, see above. The show only mentions the Pegasus's manufacturing abilities a couple of times; most of its power comes from its initial introduction in the Pegasus extended cut, where they show the technicians and spare parts being given to Galactica or the software upgrades it has, which are one-time things. Other than that the most we see of its abilities are in its guns, which are nice, but at the point when it's destroyed, we've mostly moved past every encounter with a Cylon basestar being a shooting war.
> What if the ship had shown more damage when it was found?
This a fair criticism, and I'd welcome it. It would also work with Cain's extreme militarism where she keeps picking fights she can't win. So, point.
> Pegasus showing up is a deus ex machina
This is simply wrong. Lee's tendency to disobey orders is well-established at this point, it's clearly within jump range, the Galactica's exfil of New Caprica being hopeless is well-established, and it only solves one problem with its destruction: the Galactica needs to get away, the Pegasus allows it that open door. This simply isn't what DEM actually means, which is a hallmark of bad internet criticism.
> Literal character assassination
1. Not what "character assassination" means, literally or figuratively.
2. Cain being the authoritarian who runs the ship is also well-established, and when authoritarians disappear, it's not that far of a stretch to say that the militarism they bring with them disappears or is mitigated too. Hell, the militarism isn't even totally gone: Cain's XO runs the ship pretty heavy-handedly until he's murdered for being a corrupt prick, and some of the Pegasus's officers and pilots in later S2 episodes still act more militaristically than Galactica's service members.
3. Pegasus-Six being extremely competent with weapons and knowing the Pegasus's layout is established in Razor (which, sure, you could say was a retcon, although I wouldn't, but it's there regardless), and the payoff of Cain being murdered by a lover she abused and tortured because she couldn't see her humanity is appropriate for that character.
actually OG cain took off into deep space trying to draw some of the cylons with him
"Flippity-fuck" just before 14:40... LOVED it!
I absolutely despise where the reboot BSG ended up, so I'm not especially sympathetic to even more effectively gutting the Colonial's hopes. Though I do think you've made quite a few decent points for some version of BSG that didn't end up with a doomed people meandering to their pointless deaths out into those Smilodon infested grasslands. As for the reboot sticking to story beats from the original BSG, I'd argue that the original continuity did NOT lead to a hopeless outcome. It depicted a Fleet which had survived well enough to build at least that one new generation vessel - the one similar to the Ship of Light vessel. Something I've taken as the Colonials being on an ascendant path, whereas the reboot took a path of oblivion.
Something to consider , even though the Pegasus is not moving at the Speed of Light it is covering large distances in space so it is moving very fast. That much mass at that velocity would be like a fully loaded freight Train moving at full speed crashing into a building.
I just want to say, I absolutely love the video I agree with all the plot points
But I would like to offer a solution to Pegasus first option is a adama could’ve renamed Pegasus to Galactica yes, that does does take away some of the problems in the later episodes like we’re Starbuck mentioned you need to watch out because a lot of the raptors are running clapped out jump drives referring to a lot of the jump drives on the raptors are completely shot the high heavens, and barely operational. It’s a miracle that they’re even still running.
But I have an easy solution for that, and it’s quite a logical one. Yeah, you could replace the mechanical equipment to repair the machinery, but over time the machines themselves would fail and the tooling to replace the moulding themselves would just get cracked on it. It’ll reversible damaged. The word become a point where I eventually Pegasus can’t repair itself. No matter how hard they try. Even if you had the materials you can’t repair the mould on the ship, because eventually they would get completely corroded. Eventually, you have to source new moulding and build it yourself, which could take time and more resources which could be used for other things.
That’s how I would solve Pegasus staying in the show
But everything else in the video I really enjoyed didn’t like the fact they killed off Helena And I’m sorry but how the heck did a Cylon get from the bridge all the way up to her quarters I’m sorry you’re going to tell me no one saw her and don’t even get me started on. How the heck did she get off the ship what are you gonna tell me no one on the hanger Bay Saw the Cylon on, and when you know what she looks like the one and I’ll bring wait a minute she is the one in the brig stop her
Yeah I can see the potential issues later on getting a little more hard to write, but then again if we don’t question why they destroyed the Pegasus or why it should not be in the show on the first place or shouldn’t be careful why it should’ve been kept with Galactica Then what are you? I have watched Star Trek Star Wars Stargate, since I was eight years old out of all those shows I have to write Battlestar Galactica on the top of them. I like the shits I like the atmosphere I like the fear factor. I wish the silence for a little more in your face like every once in awhile don’t have to worry about them but other than that I have to say your video completely shows why they should’ve done a better job with Pegasus. Do I agree shouldn’t of been in the show or should’ve been destroyed no
But then again, the mercury class is my favourite ship and the Jupiter class. I have a soft spot for the client to get you. You can’t not like one without the other in my opinion 😊.
I've loved reading and seeing the many suggestions about how the Pegasus twist in BSG could have gone so much better. She comes in as a very definite Mary Sue with the only visible drawback being her CO which everyone who say the original series knew was going to be some kind of issue.
Moore's BSG came about when hollywood was beginning to openly no longer care how piss-poor their writers were becoming.
There've always been bad movies and badly written shows, we just don't remember the older ones because they weren't worth remembering.
Being that I was a kid who got my family to watch the original due to a Smithsonian article on IML, I knew as soon as I saw that big beautiful ship she was doomed and tried to remain emotionally unattached to her; I knew her fate. Still, a shame but yeah, if ya knew ya knew and just prepped for the day she left or was destroyed.
When I was watching the show way back when - I thought another colonial surviving Battlestar arrived to save Galactica (alerted by the same nuke that the cylons saw over new caprica). It would have also been awesome if Lee Adama vanished like commander Cain and fate of Pegasus unknown
That Palpatine tie in was well played 😅
Imagine what a fleet of Mercury class battlestars could have done to the cylinder.
The concern with the Pegasus fabrication facilities being considered a Star Trek replicator could be easily resolved by a simple lack of raw materials to make things with. I would also have liked the Peg, when it initially appeared, to be fairly undamaged but unarmed. It was in dock after all, the story could be that it’s armament was offloaded during the attack. Cain then ordering Adama “Give me all your bullets” setting up the first confrontation.
The alternative I can think of for how to make the Pegasus work would be to make it a Valkyrie. A modern, but smaller and less capable ship than the Galactica. It being more modern and in full working order would give the argument that it might be better than the old and under armored Galatica but being smaller and less armored in general might make it arguable that it isn't. It also wouldn't come with foundries to fix every problem the fleet has but does bring in relief forces for the exhausted crew of Galatica.
What I would have liked instead is that the Pegasus looses their engines but it's FTL malfunctions and jumps to a random point or back to the refugee fleet badly damaged, and the evacuation on NC still worked, and then the next episode is to scuttle or salvage the Pegasus, and give Galactica a rough retro fit look for the ending.
The best solution is to make them sacrifice the pegasus for the civilian fleet, not just Galactica. For example:
Jumping from the atmosphere is dangerous and can damage a ship therefore civilian ships need a couple of minutes to get high enough to jump without breaking after the jump. Now that the additional 4 basestarts did jump there is a lot of raider heading for the civilian fleet. One of the ships jumps from the atmosphere to inform the pegasus what is happening and we can see that ship breaking in half and suffering massive damage. Then Pegasus jumps in and takes a nuke that destroys its FTL.
i think they could have let the Pegasus hang around, even get Galatica destroyed and in honour, they rename the Pegasus, after a time the production facilities get damaged beyond repair by a virus or sabotaged, maybe in the mutiny and they could only produce ammunition.
A beaten Pegasus would also instill into the audience that there’s no fighting the Cylons in a stand-up fight, and that there’s no going back.
Also, if Cain is still hellbent on her revenge trip-that she’s literally in charge of something that’s falling apart because of it, it makes her out to be more of an Ahab like character
🤔 Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. They also could have made the Pegasus a Valkyrie class; smaller ship with built in limitations. Still...the Mercury class Peggy was a seksi deus ex machina.
There are so many ways to fix the sacrifice of the Pegasus over New Caprica:
They could have always planned to take both ships in, but one would jump first, alert the Cylons, then lead them off while the other jumped directly into atmosphere to recieve the evacuees. The Pegasus could have been ship 1 either because it was tougher and more likely to survive the pounding it would take (only to not quite make it), or because the oler Battlestars from the first Cylon war might have been designed with atmospheric entry in mind, making Galactica the only option for that role
Or both ships could have jumped in to engage the Cylons directly, and the Cylons chose to focus on Pegasus as the more significant threat. Hoping that if Pegasus was destroyed, Galactica wouldn't last much passed that, or that if only one ship could be destroyed before the other jumped out, they'd rather down the more powerful of the two
Alternatively, the Galactica could have taken on Religious significance as the vessel chosen by the gods to deliver the people to their new home, and so Pegasus, despite being a more powerful asset, could have been the more bearable psycological loss
And those are just what I came up with. I'm sure other folks have even better ideas
The 13 episodes of season 1 were BRILLIANT. The 13 episodes of half-season 2.0 were BRILLIANT. The Pegasus embodied how BSG went OFF THE RAILS after that, because of RDM's dynamic plot arc approach to running the show. He didn't believe in Babylon 5 style plot arcs that were planned out in detail years in advance - he's right that doing it that way made B5 feel "on rails" and many episodes and plot threads were just there to put various plot-points on screen in a forced manner. Instead, RDM believed in having ongoing plot-arcs, but they only planned ahead for half a season at a time or so, which enables the episodes to organically take advantage of opportunities and limitations that crop up (i.e. an actor/character works better/worse than expected, so they adjust the plotlines accordingly). Season 1 was planned and executed brilliantly. Then they brilliantly planned and executed the 13 episodes of season 2.0. But after that, the production schedule for 26 episodes per year took a toll on their ability to plan and optimize the arcs, so you got things like them not knowing what to do with Pegasus, or in season 3 making Apollo FAT and never getting around to finishing his plot-arc that would have had him joining the marines and as RDM put it, "get hard" again - instead Jaime Bamber suffered through episode after episode of fat prosthetics until they finally just gave up and had Apollo lose all the weight and get ripped off-screen between episodes. And let's not forget Baltar's wasted potential - such a brilliant actor and character, that the writers had no idea what to do with after season 2.0. Basically, the show got lost for 1.5 seasons (season 2.5 and season 3/3.5), and then managed to kinda get its act together for season 4 and cross the finish line with some dignity.
IIRC the cast and crew even had a large banner made “Save the Pegasus” when filming was being done for the first few episodes of season 3.
I used to own the whole series on Bluray, but I sold it off last year after watching it for the final time, Having rewatched the show several times over the years, it becomes more clear that story wise, the writers (Moore and Eick) really had no clue what they were doing by around the end of season 1. The show really needed a roadmap and a "Bible" (like Babylon 5) before shooting began. Also I think some of the grounded Military tech (like bullets as opposed to some sort of energy based weapons) and nerfing the Cylons (just how they did the Cylons in general) hurt the show, alot.
in the original series, the Pegasus and the Galactica were sister ships, and Adama and Cain were equal ranks. The biggest differnce was that Cain was cast with more of a George Patton style blood and guts no quarter given or asked, while Adama was was more calculating with bigger responsibilities. all together totally different story lines
Imagine if Barry Garner was still alive and acting captain of the Pegasus, and the ships last battle was her suffering extensive damage to her midsection, but retaining the ability to do FTL, if her front section was intact.
It would be interesting to see Garner's ark moved here, where instead of dying saving the ship, his ark would culminate with him deciding that the crew is more important than the ship, and choosing to use explosives to separate the rear with the FTL from the front sections.
With this the explosion would allow what remains of Pegasus and its crew to FTL out, but also render the ship no longer combat worthy, or as useful as an industrial producer.
This way you'd take its relevance of the plot table, and avoid the final battle debacle.
I like the crippled ship idea. Or my bad fanfic, let the OG Galactica be destroyed. And because the stain of Cain, Pegasus is rechristened Galactica and in the Old Ship's honor and the name continues on. And most of the story beats cam still happen.
From what I remember, wasn’t new tech supposed to be more vulnerable than legacy which is why the Galactica and old vipers survived. Analogous to vacuum tubes vs integrated circuitry in a nuclear war. Would’ve been more internally consistent if the writers wrote Pegasus out using the premise they setup from the get go. OP vs Galactica, vulnerable vs Cylons. By the end of the show, wasn’t everyone a Cylon?
Once you get to Earth, be sure to stop by any of the rivers to quench your thirst, jump up several feet to snatch fruit from a tree, and most importantly bring a spare Pegasus incase you need to smash a couple of wayward Basestars.
yeahhh so I guess it wasnt just me that realized a nearly intact pegasus being bodied was pretty fucking odd.
Yeah, if she could jump but not maneuver and had to be towed but towing slowed everyone down it could have been interesting.
You can't leave her because she can manufacture items but they don't have any ore to do it yet would have done so much for the story.
But I think at Season 3 they told the show it wasn't going past Season 5 and they needed to wrap this all up and it stopped being about the harshness of travel and getting to the end as quickly as possible.
I felt the pegasus was brought in to fool the audience into thinking the fleet finally had a real chance at surviving due to its ability to produce new weapons/ships then its destruction brought this whole feeling of complete hopelessness, but thats just my opinion
The original Pegasus flew in during a crucial battle, assisted Galactica, then flew off, drawing a big part of the cylon fleet with her.
Fabricators without raw materials would be useless the problems would shift to getting enough raw materials. The vast amounts of parts and equipment needed to keep the refugee fleet operational could easily balance out the existence of the Pegasus's production.
I haven't watched the new series aside from clips, but the closest to surviving I can see the pegasus is in a crippled or salvage state, where now you would have a militant wing of people to incorporate, but no full capable ship, makes for a faction point I find missing, that of the true military hardline, the ultimate pragmatist.
I completely argee that ppl need to get off lee adama's ass about what happened. And I feel he was also done dirty.
Ive seen a few discussions on the BSG deadlock discord coming down on him about it.
Couldn't believe I wasn't subscribed. issue rectified.
About the fabrication, what about making the new vipers with parts salvaged during the Great Cylon Turkey Shoot? A viper with Cylon engines and guns would really show how desperate the colonials are to get something up and running.
your story points are well presented.
I would change story for that:
Adama was once an Admiral and in charge of Pegasus for decade before fall of Twelve Colonies, during tests of Stealthstar he ordered to shoot on Novacek, but he autodestruct Stealthstar before that and ejected himself into space.
Without Stealthstar missiles aimed and destroyed Cylon Raiders. That gives Cylons green light to begin The Plan. Adama is disgraced by Colonial Fleet and he is demoted to Commander during martial court.
Fleet prosecutor Major Helena Cain wants death sentence for him but due to recent death of Zack Adama, jury puts William in charge of Battlestar Galactica along with his crew as honorable discharged from active duty as "Flagship" officer.
Here comes Cain who is promoted in place of Adama and given command of Pegasus.
Later it would be shown through flashback (for example in Razor) that Cain with Gina Inviere (Number Six seduced president) were blackmailing Adar to push Admirals to promote her to rank of Admiral and Gina to head of IT of Modernizing the Fleet.
So Adama would not only face again a woman that destroyed his life, wanted to take it (twice, sic!) now on his place with his old ship in command.
I've always thought Pegasus was an essential part of Galactica's hero's journey. Yes, the ship's capabilities were poorly considered. Think of the character development the main cast underwent because of Pegasus though. Particularly Adama. Without his jarring split from the old Colonial military ways would that character have successfully metamorphosized into the leader that made later and better storylines believable and powerful? I don't think so. Doesn't his willingness to go to war with Cain over Helo and Tyrol lend credibility to the idea that this is the type of fiercely but sentimentally loyal man that would one day wait all alone in a Raptor for someone that may never return?
The entire Pegasus arc was a singularly transformative time for most of the characters. In the grand scheme of things, indispensable.
It is true that they treated it like so much eye-candy, however, and the real world cost led to Pegasus' strangely handled demise. I do not think it reaches the level of contrivance this video portrays though. The greatly diminished crews and therefore capabilities of the ships were established far enough in advance that they hardly seemed shoehorned in. Apollo was not exactly a tactical genius with years of experience commanding a fighting Battlestar either. No, Pegasus' destruction was done neatly enough to give it a bit more credit than this. Not perfect but not as bad as all this certainly.
The one thing I agree with completely is that Apollo did not fire any nukes and that was just baffling. If I were at the helm of a mile-long, nuclear-armed, space-faring war machine, in a target rich environment, and headed for certain death... well, it would be atomic gotterdammerung start to finish. Hell, I'd have detonated the last one in the tube during that kamikaze maneuver just to ensure the total annihilation of my final enemy. But I'm the type that thinks the only important part of "pyrrhic victory" is "victory".
If you're going to die anyway, there is no reason to save ammo. _Take them with you._ In such situations, Maxim 37 applies more than ever: "There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'reload.'"
@@CiaranMaxwell Exactly. Well said! A giant middle finger is still a salute of sorts to those about to die.