It was a huge mistake to close the second avenue el, and an even bigger one to close the third avenue el. Now, the Bronx must rely on the Lexington Avenue trains, causing them to be the most overcrowded trains IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY. What is worse is that ONLY NOW there is a subway being built that will accommodate the load, and while it is working, it would have been MUCH better and wasted MUCH less time if either on of the els were left untouched.
The 3rd ave El would have been too redundant to the current Lexington line but I completely agree with that the unnecessary haste to remove the 2nd avenue EL was a huge mistake. The 2nd Ave subways is STILL delayed. It took almost 70 years just to get 3 stops on the line. For some reason its going to take until 2029 or later for phase 2. There's a large portion of existing tunnel in East Harlem that should expedite the process.
@IsaiahCarroll95 To redundant??? The 3rd Avenue El line would have been more than efficient to compensate for the Lexington line! If they even built a new elevated 3rd Avenue line (which is my dream) coming from South Water St to 128th Street in Harlem, it would be a Godsend!
I wish they rebuilt all els in New York, but with floating slab track, pillars relocated to outside of the curbside, and wheels with variable taper in order to prevent flage contact altogether just like with upgraded trains and bullet trains in Asia and Europe. That would enable New York to return the iconic aesthetics of its historic els while still ensuring a whisper quiet experience and giving a unique world-class sightseeing experience just like with Chicago's Loop. Unlike the CTA L however, my proposal would have a Business Class car in every trainset (just like with commuter rail in Asia, especially Green Cars in Japan) that travels on elevated lines in order to ensure that sightseers get a great experience from having a comfortable ride with a luxurious interior free from homeless. The Business Class fares for tourists and upper class commuters would also cost many (perhaps a dozen) times more than a standard fare in order to subsidize the low-income commuters in order to ensure the financial security of the railway operator so that future generations can continue to enjoy the elevated signseeing experience on infrastructure maintained to certified pre-owned like-new condition. I bet that such a modern el (but with historic aesthetics) built to my high standards would still be way cheaper than tunnelling the Second Avenue Subway through ultra-hard metamorphic schist rock hundreds of feet underground. After all, even the economically much-worse-off Philly was able to completely rebuild the Market Street western elevated portion of the Market-Frankford Line (including the foundations of the pillars) in the 2000s to a modern concrete structure, though I'm not sure whether floating slab track was used or not. Perhaps Chicago's el's weren't demolished because the original builders went the extra mile to lengthen the transverse girders in order to be able to place the pillars on the sidewalk or place the els over alleys alltogether, both in order to not block horse and automotive traffic? That is unlike New York, where the pillars were placed in the middle of the street on most elevated lines presumable to save money on having shorter transverse girders.
@@Interscope100 When I went to the High School on 96th Street between 2nd and first avenues back in the 70's , I did not take the Lexington Avenue line because it was too crowded. And taking the bus I had to worry if the bus would make it up the hill between 103rd and 102nd Streets on Lexington Avenue. The 3rd and 2nd Avenue Els would have given me more choices to get to school. They should not have gotten rid of them as well as the 9th Avenue El.
What great footage, this brings me right to my childhood growing up in New York. I loved the elevated trains being outside enjoying the ride and sights . Subways are ok but you cant see anything under the ground no natural light coming in. Now for years I live in the Smokey Mountain's . I like it very much here too. but definitely miss mass transit
City is too docile to understand the perpetuance behind such projects … worse part is the labor inflation that would follow if these were all brought back 😩😳🙌🏾
Wonderful narration. Had to salvage what I could from a magnificently botched publishing job ("The Kingdom of New York," a scrapbook of the old New York Observer), which had been turned into a scrapheap of almost-invisible type (size), faint ink density and some other standard features of the chichi/incompetent Manhattan publishing Mafia. Much clipping, taping and finally, page numbering and xeoxing. I kept the sound on to this even though I had to pay attention to the rehab work, as it evokes, to me, born in 1952 in the Da Bronx, the sound of people speaking way back when, before the Bronx was savaged and destroyed. And I thank you many times. You made my work go by faster, lending a cadence to the task that help move things along in a steady, enjoyable fashion.
During the 40s-50s i entrained at 3rd Ave EL for a long round trip down to the Bowery and all the way up to 128th St before returning to detrain at 34th St. I recall the fare covered the entire trip as being 25 cents. We lived at 139 E 35th St, at Lexington Ave.
What gets me is the old tenements lining the els. Rents were cheap in those days 50 a month was a palace compare that to today's rents in the thousands
Transit made a bad decision to dismantle most of the els. We need some of those routes today coz the bus lines that replaced them, especially in the Bronx, is lackluster. Wish we still had the 3 Av el between 3 Av-149 St to Gun Hill Rd.
I guess one of those stations is 149th and Grand Concourse, which had a different name back then. I was expecting the Yankee Stadium. Since they keep switching avenues, it would be useful to tell the whole intersection, 106St and Ave?, 116 AveSt and? Ave. Really nice videos.
@@bengaliinplatforms1268 But not so in over half a century's safe operation of multiple elevated lines, plus structurally obsolete portions can be more easily replaced than building a new subway tunnel. There are many elevated subway lines remaining in NYC that are differentiated by historians from these old "els" in that the existing structures can bear modern steel subway cars, so upgrading rather than demolition could have been the case for at least some of the old el branches.
I wish they rebuilt all els in New York, but with floating slab track or under-sleeper rubber pads, pillars relocated to outside of the curbside, and wheels with variable taper in order to prevent flage contact altogether just like with upgraded trains and bullet trains in Asia and Europe. That would enable New York to return the iconic aesthetics of its historic els while still ensuring a whisper quiet experience and giving a unique world-class sightseeing experience just like with Chicago's Loop. Unlike the CTA L however, my proposal would have a Business Class car in every trainset (just like with commuter rail in Asia, especially Green Cars in Japan) that travels on elevated lines in order to ensure that sightseers get a great experience from having a comfortable ride with a luxurious interior free from homeless. The Business Class fares for tourists and upper class commuters would also cost many (perhaps a dozen) times more than a standard fare in order to subsidize the low-income commuters in order to ensure the financial security of the railway operator so that future generations can continue to enjoy the elevated signseeing experience on infrastructure maintained to certified pre-owned like-new condition. I bet that such a modern el (but with historic aesthetics) built to my high standards would still be way cheaper than tunnelling the Second Avenue Subway through ultra-hard metamorphic schist rock hundreds of feet underground. After all, even the economically much-worse-off Philly was able to completely rebuild the Market Street western elevated portion of the Market-Frankford Line (including the foundations of the pillars) in the 2000s to a modern concrete structure, though I'm not sure whether floating slab track or Sonneville Low Vibration Track was used or not. The lack of progressive wheel taper isn't a problem in Philadelphia's case because there are no substantially sharp curves on its elevated sections, so the wheel flages don't touch the tracks anyway. Perhaps Chicago's el's weren't demolished because the original builders went the extra mile to lengthen the transverse girders in order to be able to place the pillars on the sidewalk or place the els over alleys alltogether, both in order to not block horse and automotive traffic? That is unlike New York, where the pillars were placed in the middle of the street on most elevated lines presumable to save money on having shorter transverse girders.
For the cost of constructing one section of that overly expensive 2nd Avenue Line, all the demolished ELs in Manhattan could be rebuilt, which change left over.
The only IRT elevated section left in Manhattan sadly is the Broadway local #1 train from Broadway at W 122nd St to W 136 St. This section having been constructed in 1904 is actually older than the 2nd and 3rd Av IRT El structures rebuilt in 1915 and 1916. The stupid NYC planners should've at least kept the 2nd Av El, it was the newest of the four Manhattan Els and went to Queens and the Bronx. Only in full operation for 25 years before dismantling, what a freakin waste. Could've been upgraded like Chicago did theirs instead of building a short, non-express tracked 2nd Av subway for 5 billion dollars.
Your statements are very incorrect , the 2nd ,3rd, 6th and 9th Ave. ELS were not built by the I.R.T. They were built primarily by the N.Y. ELEVATED RR. & the METROPOLITAN ELEVATED RR. COMPANIES. in the 1870's .By 1903 August Belmont and the I.R.T. COMPANY brought the 4 ELS which was since 1879 under the ownership of the MANHATTAN RAILWAY COMPANY , into the I.R.T. And as for the BROADWAY I.R.T. ELEVATED LINE ? THERE WAS NO SUCH THING. This line have never been a true ELEVATED LINE .The route is so branded by how it runs thru the main business part of the city, which is Mid-town & Lower Manhattan. This Broadway VAN CORTLANDT LINE ,ALONG WITH THE PELHAM & NEW LOTS /LAVONIA AVE.LINES, ARE THE ONLY I.R.T. EL STRUCTURES THAT NEVER DIRECTLY CONNECTED WITH A TRUE ELEVATED LINE, BUT RAN STRICTLY SUBWAY STYLE TRAINS (all steel cars) THE USE OF WOODEN OR PARTIAL WOODEN CARS WAS BANNED FROM TUNNELS SINCE 1915.ALL OF THE REST OF THE I.R.T. STRUCTURES, AT ONE TIME HAD BOTH SUBWAY & ELEVATED SERVICE ON THE SAME EL STRUCTURE AS THEY HAD CONNECTIONS TO BOTH TUNNEL LINES AND FULL BLOODED (THRU MID-TOWN & LOWER MANHATTAN ) ELEVATED LINES. SOME EXAMPLES OF SOME DUEL SERVICE OF BOTH SUBWAY AND ELEVATED TRAINS LINES ARE THE JEROME AVE. LINE ,THE WHITE PLAINS RD LINE , THE FLUSHING LINE , THE ASTORIA LINE , AND THE GRAND DADDY OF THEM ALL, THE WESTCHESTER AVE./ WEST FARMS LINE.
@@sunstarsunstar4184 Thanks for the correction. I never said the IRT built them, they were part of the IRT that part is correct because they were incorporated during the dual contracts period. Now take a chill pill, pal.
@@sunstarsunstar4184 also, I know the B'way line was never part of the El system, but it is elevated from 122 to 135th just the same. Good attention to factual detail, I was being a bit more casual about it than you, Mr. History guy.
There is a second elevated section on the #1 line in Manhattan from just north of Dyckman St. to the Broadway Bridge over the Spuyten Duyvil creek. It has stations at 207th and 215th Streets. There is a yard lead just south of the 207th St. station which leads to the 207th St. yard and was opened in 1988.
Not to mention the co-existent trolleys whose street level tracks ran over all the East River bridges also, connecting Manhattan with Queens and Brooklyn. It was a much more comprehensive rail transit grid than we have today.
It was a huge mistake to close the second avenue el, and an even bigger one to close the third avenue el. Now, the Bronx must rely on the Lexington Avenue trains, causing them to be the most overcrowded trains IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY.
What is worse is that ONLY NOW there is a subway being built that will accommodate the load, and while it is working, it would have been MUCH better and wasted MUCH less time if either on of the els were left untouched.
Yes Chicago kept theirs
The 3rd ave El would have been too redundant to the current Lexington line but I completely agree with that the unnecessary haste to remove the 2nd avenue EL was a huge mistake. The 2nd Ave subways is STILL delayed. It took almost 70 years just to get 3 stops on the line. For some reason its going to take until 2029 or later for phase 2. There's a large portion of existing tunnel in East Harlem that should expedite the process.
@IsaiahCarroll95 To redundant??? The 3rd Avenue El line would have been more than efficient to compensate for the Lexington line! If they even built a new elevated 3rd Avenue line (which is my dream) coming from South Water St to 128th Street in Harlem, it would be a Godsend!
I wish they rebuilt all els in New York, but with floating slab track, pillars relocated to outside of the curbside, and wheels with variable taper in order to prevent flage contact altogether just like with upgraded trains and bullet trains in Asia and Europe. That would enable New York to return the iconic aesthetics of its historic els while still ensuring a whisper quiet experience and giving a unique world-class sightseeing experience just like with Chicago's Loop. Unlike the CTA L however, my proposal would have a Business Class car in every trainset (just like with commuter rail in Asia, especially Green Cars in Japan) that travels on elevated lines in order to ensure that sightseers get a great experience from having a comfortable ride with a luxurious interior free from homeless. The Business Class fares for tourists and upper class commuters would also cost many (perhaps a dozen) times more than a standard fare in order to subsidize the low-income commuters in order to ensure the financial security of the railway operator so that future generations can continue to enjoy the elevated signseeing experience on infrastructure maintained to certified pre-owned like-new condition. I bet that such a modern el (but with historic aesthetics) built to my high standards would still be way cheaper than tunnelling the Second Avenue Subway through ultra-hard metamorphic schist rock hundreds of feet underground.
After all, even the economically much-worse-off Philly was able to completely rebuild the Market Street western elevated portion of the Market-Frankford Line (including the foundations of the pillars) in the 2000s to a modern concrete structure, though I'm not sure whether floating slab track was used or not. Perhaps Chicago's el's weren't demolished because the original builders went the extra mile to lengthen the transverse girders in order to be able to place the pillars on the sidewalk or place the els over alleys alltogether, both in order to not block horse and automotive traffic? That is unlike New York, where the pillars were placed in the middle of the street on most elevated lines presumable to save money on having shorter transverse girders.
@@Interscope100 When I went to the High School on 96th Street between 2nd and first avenues back in the 70's , I did not take the Lexington Avenue line because it was too crowded. And taking the bus I had to worry if the bus would make it up the hill between 103rd and 102nd Streets on Lexington Avenue.
The 3rd and 2nd Avenue Els would have given me more choices to get to school. They should not have gotten rid of them as well as the 9th Avenue El.
There is nothing sweeter than being immersed in old melodies, full of poetry and emotion. 🌹
Dang...all that trackage gone because SOMEBODY THOUGHT it was a smart IDEA to remove the lines.
Promises to replace them never appeared.
Real estate interests were behind this teardown and bus builders gmc
What great footage, this brings me right to my childhood growing up in New York.
I loved the elevated trains being outside enjoying the ride and sights . Subways are ok but you cant see anything under the ground no natural light coming in.
Now for years I live in the Smokey Mountain's . I like it very much here too. but definitely miss mass transit
Exactly 💯
Brings back memories of White Plaines Rd. & 3rd, Ave, lines as I grew up on Carpenter Ave, at 228th St.
We need these els today.
As soon as possible!
City is too docile to understand the perpetuance behind such projects … worse part is the labor inflation that would follow if these were all brought back 😩😳🙌🏾
@@tylortaylor6124Many people are looking for jobs. They'd fill up quickly.
Wonderful narration. Had to salvage what I could from a magnificently botched publishing job ("The Kingdom of New York," a scrapbook of the old New York Observer), which had been turned into a scrapheap of almost-invisible type (size), faint ink density and some other standard features of the chichi/incompetent Manhattan publishing Mafia. Much clipping, taping and finally, page numbering and xeoxing. I kept the sound on to this even though I had to pay attention to the rehab work, as it evokes, to me, born in 1952 in the Da Bronx, the sound of people speaking way back when, before the Bronx was savaged and destroyed. And I thank you many times. You made my work go by faster, lending a cadence to the task that help move things along in a steady, enjoyable fashion.
What do you mean Da Bronx was savaged? Who owned all that property and who benefited?
During the 40s-50s i entrained at 3rd Ave EL for a long round trip down to the Bowery and all the way up to 128th St before returning to detrain at 34th St. I recall the fare covered the entire trip as being 25 cents. We lived at 139 E 35th St, at Lexington Ave.
What gets me is the old tenements lining the els. Rents were cheap in those days 50 a month was a palace compare that to today's rents in the thousands
Transit made a bad decision to dismantle most of the els. We need some of those routes today coz the bus lines that replaced them, especially in the Bronx, is lackluster. Wish we still had the 3 Av el between 3 Av-149 St to Gun Hill Rd.
It was NYC officials who made that decision (Robert Moses, LaGuardia and others). The MTA was not formed yet.
NYC use to be one big rollercoaster ride!
I guess one of those stations is 149th and Grand Concourse, which had a different name back then. I was expecting the Yankee Stadium. Since they keep switching avenues, it would be useful to tell the whole intersection, 106St and Ave?, 116 AveSt and? Ave. Really nice videos.
The 149th Street-Grand Concourse station on the lower level was originally called 149th Street-Mott Avenue.
yeah you can see where the second level would have been in places. must have been pretty shaky rattling along up there sometimes
Looked like a death trap tbh
@@bengaliinplatforms1268 But not so in over half a century's safe operation of multiple elevated lines, plus structurally obsolete portions can be more easily replaced than building a new subway tunnel. There are many elevated subway lines remaining in NYC that are differentiated by historians from these old "els" in that the existing structures can bear modern steel subway cars, so upgrading rather than demolition could have been the case for at least some of the old el branches.
I wish they rebuilt all els in New York, but with floating slab track or under-sleeper rubber pads, pillars relocated to outside of the curbside, and wheels with variable taper in order to prevent flage contact altogether just like with upgraded trains and bullet trains in Asia and Europe. That would enable New York to return the iconic aesthetics of its historic els while still ensuring a whisper quiet experience and giving a unique world-class sightseeing experience just like with Chicago's Loop. Unlike the CTA L however, my proposal would have a Business Class car in every trainset (just like with commuter rail in Asia, especially Green Cars in Japan) that travels on elevated lines in order to ensure that sightseers get a great experience from having a comfortable ride with a luxurious interior free from homeless. The Business Class fares for tourists and upper class commuters would also cost many (perhaps a dozen) times more than a standard fare in order to subsidize the low-income commuters in order to ensure the financial security of the railway operator so that future generations can continue to enjoy the elevated signseeing experience on infrastructure maintained to certified pre-owned like-new condition. I bet that such a modern el (but with historic aesthetics) built to my high standards would still be way cheaper than tunnelling the Second Avenue Subway through ultra-hard metamorphic schist rock hundreds of feet underground.
After all, even the economically much-worse-off Philly was able to completely rebuild the Market Street western elevated portion of the Market-Frankford Line (including the foundations of the pillars) in the 2000s to a modern concrete structure, though I'm not sure whether floating slab track or Sonneville Low Vibration Track was used or not. The lack of progressive wheel taper isn't a problem in Philadelphia's case because there are no substantially sharp curves on its elevated sections, so the wheel flages don't touch the tracks anyway. Perhaps Chicago's el's weren't demolished because the original builders went the extra mile to lengthen the transverse girders in order to be able to place the pillars on the sidewalk or place the els over alleys alltogether, both in order to not block horse and automotive traffic? That is unlike New York, where the pillars were placed in the middle of the street on most elevated lines presumable to save money on having shorter transverse girders.
For the cost of constructing one section of that overly expensive 2nd Avenue Line, all the demolished ELs in Manhattan could be rebuilt, which change left over.
Wish these lines were still running taranctula remembers
What happened to the second avenue bridge?
It was torn down with the rest of the 3rd avenue el south of 149th St in 1955
What a ride
The only IRT elevated section left in Manhattan sadly is the Broadway local #1 train from Broadway at W 122nd St to W 136 St. This section having been constructed in 1904 is actually older than the 2nd and 3rd Av IRT El structures rebuilt in 1915 and 1916. The stupid NYC planners should've at least kept the 2nd Av El, it was the newest of the four Manhattan Els and went to Queens and the Bronx. Only in full operation for 25 years before dismantling, what a freakin waste. Could've been upgraded like Chicago did theirs instead of building a short, non-express tracked 2nd Av subway for 5 billion dollars.
Your statements are very incorrect , the 2nd ,3rd, 6th and 9th Ave. ELS were not built by the I.R.T. They were built primarily by the N.Y. ELEVATED RR. & the METROPOLITAN ELEVATED RR. COMPANIES. in the 1870's .By 1903 August Belmont and the I.R.T. COMPANY brought the 4 ELS which was since 1879 under the ownership of the MANHATTAN RAILWAY COMPANY , into the I.R.T. And as for the BROADWAY I.R.T. ELEVATED LINE ? THERE WAS NO SUCH THING. This line have never been a true ELEVATED LINE .The route is so branded by how it runs thru the main business part of the city, which is Mid-town & Lower Manhattan. This Broadway VAN CORTLANDT LINE ,ALONG WITH THE PELHAM & NEW LOTS /LAVONIA AVE.LINES, ARE THE ONLY I.R.T. EL STRUCTURES THAT NEVER DIRECTLY CONNECTED WITH A TRUE ELEVATED LINE, BUT RAN STRICTLY SUBWAY STYLE TRAINS (all steel cars) THE USE OF WOODEN OR PARTIAL WOODEN CARS WAS BANNED FROM TUNNELS SINCE 1915.ALL OF THE REST OF THE I.R.T. STRUCTURES, AT ONE TIME HAD BOTH SUBWAY & ELEVATED SERVICE ON THE SAME EL STRUCTURE AS THEY HAD CONNECTIONS TO BOTH TUNNEL LINES AND FULL BLOODED (THRU MID-TOWN & LOWER MANHATTAN ) ELEVATED LINES. SOME EXAMPLES OF SOME DUEL SERVICE OF BOTH SUBWAY AND ELEVATED TRAINS LINES ARE THE JEROME AVE. LINE ,THE WHITE PLAINS RD LINE , THE FLUSHING LINE , THE ASTORIA LINE , AND THE GRAND DADDY OF THEM ALL, THE WESTCHESTER AVE./ WEST FARMS LINE.
@@sunstarsunstar4184 Thanks for the correction. I never said the IRT built them, they were part of the IRT that part is correct because they were incorporated during the dual contracts period. Now take a chill pill, pal.
@@sunstarsunstar4184 also, I know the B'way line was never part of the El system, but it is elevated from 122 to 135th just the same. Good attention to factual detail, I was being a bit more casual about it than you, Mr. History guy.
There is a second elevated section on the #1 line in Manhattan from just north of Dyckman St. to the Broadway Bridge over the Spuyten Duyvil creek. It has stations at 207th and 215th Streets. There is a yard lead just south of the 207th St. station which leads to the 207th St. yard and was opened in 1988.
@@1575murray Good one! True.
Thos gate cars were amazing
retired in 2013
This was a very efficient subway system then. Pointless to take it down later on with population increase.
Not to mention the co-existent trolleys whose street level tracks ran over all the East River bridges also, connecting Manhattan with Queens and Brooklyn. It was a much more comprehensive rail transit grid than we have today.
@Bread And Circuses You're absolutely right, I just checked it!
looks like miserable times
It’s hard to believe that this actually ran above Wall Street etc