CORRECTIONS: 4:25 Maxed out MP reduces division size by 33% not 50% 5:55 ALSO reduces infantry equiptment and manpower by a sizable amount 8:25 GALAXY BRAIN
Here is the thing, by using MP you are switching manpower for support equipment, and manpower is endless while support equipment is not, you can ask for garrisons support in other countries and in your puppets. Also you get more manpower from garrisons then you "waste" look at the garrison supply and you will see the manpower you "waste" right above it is the manpower you gain. The best garrison is not 50 width armored car with MP Its also not 50 width horse with MP Its just 1 horse with no MP. You also should only use civilian adm or local police, never the others because you wanna max compliance as soon as possible.
@@magni5648 ways to get more manpower: Train puppet divisions then annex then disband them, free manpower Ask for garrison support from puppets or allies Up your conscription Annex land, the garrison manpower cost is lesser then the gain, you get even more manpower with prince of terror, and you get even more as compliance goes up, and you get even even more when the compliance reaches the volunteers Btw prince of terror is underrated If you are at the point that you need the manpower from the garrisons then you already lost the war, infantry is supposed to defend not attack, do that and you will conserve manpower.
@@RedSander_BR First two require puppets and drains their manpower. Upping conscription comes at a price in productivity and cannot be done infinitely. Annexing non-cores does not provide infinite manpower - in fact, it provides rather little. And yes, if you start running low on manpower, a very much finite resource, you lose.
@@magni5648 there are also other ways of gaining manpower, like doctrines, and Focus trees. Here is the answer i gave on reddit. -There is just 1 thing i think feedback and most of the community is wrong, the use of military police. I don't think its worth it, by using mp you are switching manpower for support equipment, and manpower is endless because you can puppet nations and ask for garrison support from other countries. You can also ask from your faction for garrisons. Also of note you get more manpower then you waste garrisoning, just hover over the garrison supply and you will see the manpower you "waste" and above it you will see the manpower you gain from the non core pop. There is no extra resistence repression, 1 cav is the same repression as 50 width armored car with MP, the difference is in manpower and equipment, 1 cav uses only manpower and infantry equipment 50 cav uses the same but wastes xp 1 cav with MP uses manpower, infantry equipment and support equipment 50 cav with MP uses the same as above but is more efficient with support equipment. 1 armored car uses manpower infantry equipment and armored cars 50 armored car uses the same but wastes xp 1 armored car with MP uses manpower, infantry equipment, support equipment and armored cars 50 armored cars with MP uses the same but is more efficient All of those suppress the same amount of resistence, the difference is the first uses more manpower and the last uses less manpower and more equipment. As manpower is endless the 1° one is better then the last. Yeah but still, you have endless manpower as a major, and as a minor you don't have enough production By the time you as a minor have enough production, you will also have enough compliance and get manpower from ocuppations, because the manpower gain from ocuppations is greater then the loss from ocuppying in the first place. They need to rework suppression and make it so that higher suppression divisions actually increase the suppression. And make it so that the ocuppation polices instead of suppressing resistence, make it require manpower to increase compliance faster. Maybe like this: Emergencial aid, uses 50% more manpower adds 0.05 daily compliance. Send the doctors, uses 100% more manpower adds 0.1 daily compliance. The numbers would need to be reworked but you get the idea, the policys we have now are useless with the exception of civilian adm and local police. Also of note, daily manpower loss is diminished by mothtly grow.
So I tested this by annexing the entire world. 2W cav without MP is pretty much the same as 50W without MP. 50W saved me a grand total of 7 manpower. The difference comes with MPs. going from 2W cav with MP to 50W cav with MP saves me 434713 manpower (out of 1,3 million, so roughly 1/3), 52890 infantry equipment (out of 108K, so about half) and 8713 support equipment (out of 9.08K, about 95%). From this I can only conclude that 50W is superior IF you add MP. If not, then 2W is cheaper on MIL XP
bottom line is support equipment loses who can be huge if your germany and your anexing a lot as support equipment is quite slow to make , its equivalent of 1.2 artylery or 8 lv1 infantry equipment , also due "small numbers" it gets more loses becouse of low number of it , if you dont want to spend a lot xp make 10WMP or 20MP , it wont ruin your budget , especialy if your using exiting templates as baseline
you could also grab certain officer doctrines like the ones that give you unlimited horse division designs for 35xp, so 100+ army xp for 35xp, make a 50w horse template...switch to motorized effort and do the same with a tank template or motorized. well, it will only save you 30 or more xp each time but just a thought.
Sorry i still dont understand. How come you save manpower by adding more width ? Isnt more width=more manpower used in a single division ? (I'm a noob, just starting to learn this game)
@@tebetmania Yeah, I don't exactly understand the mathemagics around that myself. Especially since the extra width reduces manpower usage by ~33% but infantry equipment by ~50%. Those two should be linked and thus the reduction *should* be similar. My best guess is that it has to do with how the game handles fractions. Since you don't use an entire division to occupy every single state, but rather a portion of it, like "This province requires 0.15 division". Something with how Military Police works makes it so that the chunckier the division you have for the garrison, to less manpower and equipment each individual province needs in order to be considered fully occupied. There are probably people who know exactly why this works the way it does who could explain it for you. I just know that it works and that you can see it working in game and that's good enough for me. Edit: Actually, having given it some more thought, here's how I think it works: each province has a set amount of suppression it requires to keep resistance in check. Since adding additional units to the division only adds a flat amount to that division's suppression stat, the numbers remain the same. MPs give a percentage bonus, meaning each new unit you add, adds it's base amount + the MP bonus to the division's suppression stat. As such, the bigger you make it, the more you are taking advantage of that percentage bonus from MPs, and that's why you need less manpower per province, since the suppression stat is based on the entire division.
I was worried you wouldn't mention the support equipment reduction when using big templates. But you did! KUDOZ, CONGRATS and HAVE A HEATLHY and FULFILLING LIFE BRO.
@@richy2837 Manpower??? What??? His point is that it costs over 100 XP to create a 50w garrison horse division. So you're putting yourself behind on your strategy research for... what? 2w horses is exactly the same suppression, doesn't require support equipment, so just don't waste the XP and make little horsies.
Using less support equipment was always the reason you went for 50 widths. You were dilluting the MP's support equipment. So you're telling me people went for big divisions because they thought it boosted the stats? It was also why earlier in the game's history people went for big divisions, you'd dillute the support companies cost while having it effect more infantry. Of course we learned more and the widths also changed.
Thank god somebody understood something about this game. Yes, feedback is right saying: don't waste XP for Garrison divisions. But when you are 2 year into the war, and you have waay more XP than equipment and manpower, than change your division to 50W+MP2 is worth it.
I've only been playing the game for a month, but I thought that people only used the 50 width garrison to dilute support equipment/support manpower. I'm really surprised anyone thought different because I thought it was well known that's why they exist.
Your way of accepting that being wrong is ok and essential for self improvement is so good and healthy. I have been using this way of thinking for years now and found that it really boosts my ability to learn and grasp new concepts. For example (i'we become a student again, couldn't do my job in the army due to health reasons), while in lectures i will make a claim to my professor about the current subject. If its wrong i get an explanation as to why it's wrong and i learn. If the claim is right it's a simple yes and i revive conformation about my understanding. it's a win-win. Failure truly is the greatest teacher. Lastly: love ur stuff, keep up the good work :)
This comment just changed me. Thank you so much man. I've always known failure is a learning opportunity but something about this comment just hit me differently right now. I've failed a lot in life, in college, relationships etc. But I don't think I ever truly took the idea to heart until now. Thank you so much again. Hope you have a great day!
It would help if he practiced what he preached. 50W with MP is objectively best (if you have the army experience for it) because it saves the most manpower and support equipment.
Feedback in a nutshell: 1. makes video thinking he's debunking outdated templates or designs 2. realises he's got it wrong after reading the comments and corrects himself in the next video 3. moves on to another topic he knows little about, repeat step 1 Maybe slow down a second, talk to people who know better or just do the math instead of talking out of your hat every time. IW tanks are both better and much cheaper than AC1 (with NSB that is), been that way since 1.11.5, it's stupid and has been reported to the devs while the patch was in beta but they're ignoring it. They completely fumbled tanks and said those wouldn't see any major rebalances despite the many complaints; I don't see it changing any time soon.
I kinda gave up honestly, I had to correct him on all the videos he did lately. This is what happens when your knowledge about a topic relies on an outdated reddit post. I like feedback as an entertainer but I feel really bad about new players trying to learn stuff only to get it wrong. Its nearly impossible to relearn something when you learned it wrong first, thats why old advice from 6 years ago floats around. Some people havent even noticed yet we are past the 20w meta.
To be fair, it’s far better than most content creator’s processes of repeating step one over and over again and never bothering to learn/correct themselves. You do have a fair point, though.
@@patropro Everybody got it wrong. Interwar medium tank with 1-man turret, heavy machine gun and riveted armor is the answer. 3.2 IC per tank, 160 per battalion, 85% hardness. That's 2/3 of the cost of an armored car battalion. With higher hardness, equal suppression and manpower requirement. All of this means not only the medium tank template costs less upfront, it will also cost less equipment and manpower over time as casualties are reduced. For an in-depth understanding of what are the tradeoffs in a garrison template, search for Reman's Paradox. He got an in-depth guide to resistance and compliance ; the core mechanics haven't changed since July 2020, when this video was posted. What changed is the cost of tanks in NSB, making the trashiest IW medium tank possible actually the best vehicle for a garrison template. Also, the recon comment at the end of the video should come with a caveat ; the test was performed with a specific type of infantry division and a specific level of recon, with divisions on adjacent tiles and starting a fight. While the value of recon is greatly limited by the way tactics work, one aspect that isn't properly assessed is the increased speed, with a recon company giving about +10% movement across most terrains. This means that if you've defeated an enemy, you'll move to occupy the tile potentially faster. The extra speed is also useful if you need to shuffle some divisions from one tile to another when defending. Other situations where the extra speed may come in handy is when trying to overrun a fleeing enemy or making large pincer movements with mobile divisions. Heck, it may even save a retreating division from being overrun. Another subtle effect with recon in the late game is that it opens a possibility to pack roughly an extra 50 soft attack to your division, assuming your division has already reached the maximum width you want ; that's because if you got Superior Firepower's integrated support, that's +50% soft attack to your support companies, and it's possible to design a light tank with close support gun, 1 secondary small cannon turret, 3 MGs and a tank designer giving more soft attack. Though it should be noted it's a costly support company in that case and is really suitable for costly armored divisions that you'd want to improve. So the real question about the recon company is whether it's worth compared to alternative ways of spending IC and research time at a given time in the game, and with the current industrial and strategic situation of your country.
@@KenshiroPlayDotA I wasn't able to get the cost of meds lower than 3.6 but maybe im doing something wrong. But yea, since i didnt/dont fully understand the complete impact hardness has on the garisons, for me the 5% increase for a (calculating with the 3.6) 33% increase in cost did not seem worth it, but if the video is right and that 5% halves the casualties over time I think it's worth it. EDIT: After a little bit more calculations the 33% increase I wrote is wrong, it should be calculated per batallion, so the real cost would be 2.4*60= 144 ic per light tank and 3.6*50= 180 ic per medium. which means that a med batallion is 25% more expensive.
@@KenshiroPlayDotA Light tank can be way cheaper at 2.4 IC From my testing, medium are not worth it. The 10% hardness doesn't make enough difference. LT will cost 2.4 IC and medium 3.2 IC. That's 50% more IC. The issue is that all resistance activity always destroy at least 1 unit of each equipment. So the 10% more hardness make it so in most resistance activity, you still lose the same amount of tank. I found that I lost 46% more IC with medium compared to light. (it does save ~24% manpower over the same period)
The "meta community" never said you should use 50w cav without MP. We always told you to use cav or 50w cav with MP. I even explained this in one of your last videos.
When you're at the divison designer, if you mouse over the "save" button, it tells you how much manpower and equipment are refunded with your change. I'm pretty sure with MP there are significant manpower and equipment refund with each battalion added, but almost none without MP.
Light Tank are cheaper and better than armored car for garrison NSB If you make an interwar light tank with the following design, it will cost 2.4 IC. This make it 40% cheaper than armored car ( and has a higher hardness and the same suppression). It also only cost 1xp to design. Small armaments - Heavy Machine Gun One man turret (is by default) Boggie suspension (is by default) Riveted armor (is by default) Gasoline engine (is by default) Diesel has the same production cost, but will cost 6xp to change. Light tank and armored car have the same suppression value, but light has more hardness, so it will take less loss to resistance activities. This is still more IC expensive than cavalry, but at least it's closer (57.6IC vs 25.8IC per suppression) The only research needed is the 1918 gun (which nation has on start) and interwar tank design.
I like how he went out of his way at 1:35 to say someone was wrong by just ignoring what they said, then at 6:00 went on to AGREE with them after calling them an idiot.
If you have the army xp to waste 50w Cav + MP is definitely better than 2w Cav + MP. Let's say you need 1 full 50w Cav + MP to suppress a province that means you would need 25 2w Cav + MP to do the same job. So you are saving the equipment of 24 MPs unit and a significant amount of guns.
It's actually quite a bit cheaper to build light tanks than armored cars after one of the latest patches. They reduced the base cost of light and medium tanks, but didn't reduce the cost of armored cars. You do of course have to create a tank design that's as cheap as possible specifically for garrison duty. You get more hardness as well. Even medium tanks cost less than armored cars, unless they changed it again recently and I missed it.
You think it might be possible to use old type one tanks Garrison duty since you are replacing them anyway and Germany will capture a bunch of them when Czechoslovakia is taken over. That might be a better use than giving it away as aid to Spain or Japan or Japans puppet. Just set it to not receive more modern tanks. When you upgrade the old stuff can go to the Garrison unit.
Another way to think of it is a 2 width with military police uses 25 times more support equipment than a 50 width. So you can spend military points to save on support equipment basically. Adding a few units is worth it but there is diminishing returns the more you add. Going all the way up to 50 width usually isn’t needed.
Yup, the biggest savings is going from 2W to 4W. Each step after that is less than the previous 2->4: saves 1/2 sup eq 4->6: saves 1/3 sup eq 6->8: saves 1/4 … 48->50: saves 1/25 50W is overall the best, but with opportunity cost it is probably best to start at 2W then add battalions if you need support eq
yes, pure cav 2 width is as good as 50 width cav, but with MP the bigger division takes less support equipment and manpower than the small one, i know this because you can see this in game, you can see how much mp and production cost is required for the garrison when choosing the template for garrison
You missed a very important point. Which nullify most of what you said in the videos. MP doesn't just cost support equip. It also cost Manpower (500) and some guns. So adding MP to a 1 bat armored car double the manpower. You can see it at 05:06 Div has a suppression of 2.5 for 500 manpower. When you add the support company, the manpower is raised to 1000 for 3.0 suppression. Respectively, you had 200 manpower per suppresion and then 333.333 Manpower per suppression. So adding MP to a 1AC division will raise the manpower requirements by ~50% I made an occupation calculator, if you want to see the exact equipment/manpower required for garrisons and the estimated lost manpower docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BCGSa8v3it6x40ucTlmDJP6SrESNa0jVlqWZxWskQFw/edit#gid=848288542 It's still missing the math for the equipment loss and I'm considering some aspect of resistance (like resistance spreading or governement in exile) As calculating them is too complicated.
Ah, someone else made my point already. Kinda annoying that I went to all that effort to write an essay on why exactly Dave is wrong and someone has presented the facts already.
some extra thoughts to add to this video: 1. always check the suppression stat of your garrison divisions, and remember to mouse over the save button and check how manpower and equipment usages change before you save the template (e: experiment with garrison divisions. what works for on country may not necessarily work for another. 50W with MPs is certainly a great general solution, but you may be able to find alternatives that can make use of spare equipment or a completely different equipment from anything your actual divisions use. armored cars babyyyyyyyyy) 2. changing garrison templates, unless it's to a smaller division that uses the same equipment as before but with less manpower, will always necessitate at least one reinforcement tick, meaning that your garrisons will be briefly considered unfulfilled, so keep that in mind in high resistance scenarios 3. garrison division size only really matters if you have MPs, e.g. while 50W horses with MP1s and 2W horses with MP1s both gain 20% more suppression, the ratio of equipment and manpower works out in the 50W with MP1s favor, given that the 2W with MPs will be using 10 Support Equipment and 160 Infantry Equipment per full division, while the 50W with MPs will be using 10 Support Equipment and 3040 Infantry Equipment per full division, meaning the ratio of SE/IE in a 2W is 10/160 = 0.0625 in 2W with MPs, while the ratio in a 50W with MPs is 10/3040 = 0.00328947368, making the 50W more equipment efficient. this also ties into point one; you can see that if you *add* battalions to a garrison template with MPs, the required manpower and equipment will often go *down* due to the smaller ratio of SE to IE. You can also think of it like a distribution multiplication problem: a 2W MP1 is only 1.2 * 2 = 2.4, while a 50W MP1 is 1.2 * (2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + ... + 2) = 60, meaning that in the 2W, each horse has to have their own MP unit, while in the 50W, all 25 battalions share a single MP unit. maybe thats not the best way to explain it but hopefully you get the gist 4. Spirit of the Army in the Officer Corps tab (the 35 xp one, the middle one) has Proper Heritage, a buff available regardless of doctrine or ideology, that reduces the cost for adding and removing cavalry battalions by 100%, making them free. thus, you actually only need 45 xp to create a 50W + MP garrison template from scratch. there are a few of these kinds of spirits too, like ones that make adding tanks free or adding artillery free, etc. 5. each ideology (aside from non-aligned because pdx hates non-aligned i guess) gets their own unique garrison law. Communists get Liberated Workers, which gives +30% local resources, +20% local factories, and -15% resistance target, but increases damage to garrisons by 25%, while actually only reducing garrisons required by 20%, and reducing daily compliance gain by 0.025, same as local police force. Fascists get Brutal Oppression which reduces resistance target by a whopping 75% but also doubles garrisons required and damage to garrisons, as well as granting -0.110%(!!!!!!) compliance gain. and lastly, Democracies get my personal favorite, Local Autonomy, which does not lower resistance target, but requires -60% garrisons and adds a +0.020% compliance gain bonus, the only garrison law to actually increase compliance gain as far as I am aware. 6. I think that Local Police Force is usually the most effective garrison law given its -20% resistance target, -65% required garrisons, and -50% damage to garrisons with its only real drawback being -0.025% compliance gain, which is also only an "issue" once compliance grows to levels that basically negate the need for that garrison law.
One thing I definitely disagree with is 50 width with MP is definitely worth it. You do not rush it though. Eventually you will fill your military spirits and get the important parts of the doctrine finished.
@@erke7835 That is an interesting but how much exp you actually save from doing that won't be much. 35to pick it and I am going to assume 35 to switch back off unless you want the horse lord memes. That's the cost of adding 14 cav already. Best case scenario is you save 55 army exp if you start with a brand new template. I guess every little bit helps.
@@danielgloyd4529 you forget you'd be spending 35 anyway for an alternative spirit of the army so it's only a 35 army xp cost for lemme see, 25x5xp=125xp if you don't have a cavalry division in the first place. So I personally do think it's worth it in some situations but after this video obviously 50 width cavalry is only useful in the rare situation that you want MPs but have a support equipment deficit. Said it more for the memes than anything else tbh
The real point is that it's not worthy to using that much XP and I agree because 25 cav alone cost from scratch 125 XP(5x5x5). But if you are assigning thanks to NSB "Proper Heritage" in Officer Corps you can admit cavalry battalions for free for just 35 XP. For example Finland: a 50 cav width+ MP division cost 125 XP but with "Proper Heritage" on just 45 XP.
If manpower is an issue. Tier 1 tank or prewar tank (same cost); basic machine guns, one man turret and bolted armor. Diesel or gas doesn't matter, and reliability does not affect losses on suppression. Don't do wheeled chassis as hardness is important. IC cost of 3.2 per unit. Half the cost of armored cars. 50w+mp. you'll lose very little manpower overall.
Adding more batts to garrison template is profitable only if used with military police, and you can see how much stuff you save by hovering over "save" button, if that template is already chosed in "occupied territories" menu as garrison div. Making bigger divs with MP also reduces inf equipment and manpower usage.
The main benefit of larger suppression divisions is that you can adjust composition to your production. Adding or subtracting cavalry to adjust the amount of armored cars needed mainly.
Thank you for your wise words. It took me a very long time to realize that I need to accept that sometimes I'm wrong and I need to accept new facts or ideas with sufficient arguments and evidence. Here you are, just spreading it out there.
Light tanks can be pretty effective too. With No Step Back you can make some extremely cheap light tanks dedicated to garrison (with an inter-war chassis, a machine gun, bogie suspension, riveted armour, ...) and despite being cheap it still counts as a tank, with the same suppression and some decent hardness. Same suppression and manpower as the armoured car, hardness at least as good (better if you go for the basic chassis instead of inter-war) and same quantity of equipment but cheaper (2 point something for the cheapest tank versus 4 in production cost for an armoured car). I only realised that yesterday, until now I was still using cavalry all the time (I don't have La Résistance). The cheapest tank will also have very high reliability, but this I don't know whether or not it affects the losses.
8:00 No, effectiveness doesnt matter because suppression scales the units. 1 inf is just as "effective". Its all about efficiency and 50w MP is way more efficient. 1 cav with MP is rubbish because you need the MP cost 50 times.
A 50w cav with mp and a 2w cav with mp is not even comparable. You dont just save the manpower but the guns aswell if you require 25k manpower and 5k guns per cav div you will save half of both per division garrisoning with mp
The reason you go for 50 width is because you need less support equipment when adding MP (literally 25 times less). Adding MP then means you need fewer divisions for garrison, saving you manpower and guns. 50 width cavalry with MP is the best template for garrisons. But if you cannot afford to research MP (or get the free cavalry division designer), then just create a 1 battallion cavalry division, or use a pre-existing cavalry division without any support battallions if you have something like that. Personally I like to make the 50 width cavalry with MP and then switch individual battallions to armoured cars as I produce more of them to further increase suppression effectiveness and further reduce manpower requirement (manpower is usually the first thing I run out of as Germany).
Thank you for taking the time to go in depth on the mechanics of the game, always looking forward for your takes and your knowledge of the game, cheers!
Isn't the special forces cap entirely based on battallions? So 25 2 width division have the same number of battallions as 1 50 width division, so they provide the same special forces cap?
The way I usually handle all this garrison chaos is by 2-width cav, while creating an armored car 40-50 width with military police, but not putting it in an effect yet. As Germany, you grind a ton of army xp so you can be preparing that template in the background and applying this new, much more effective division to regions where it's needed, like Poland for example, as they tend to get very pissed (who would've guessed), while maintaining a 2-width cav garrison for countries like Czechoslovakia - taken before the conflict - completely annexed, with some additional compliance (around 40%) if the right decision got taken.
You also need to factor in the annoyance and inefficiency of having a totally separate production line and research line for armored cars. Yes, armored cars with MPs may technically be better but it's much more efficient to put those extra couple of factories into infantry equipment. The only countries I can think of that would want armored cars are tiny countries where very single manpower is precious. You are trading research time and equipment production efficiency for manpower.
depends , lots people use armored cars as recon (as its best recon) ,you can also subsidy cars by making "tank" police rather then armored cars , light tanks are incredibly cheap in this version of the game
@@VarenvelDarakus A lot of people also use Recon incorrectly too. As Feedback mentioned, Recon is a defensive company, but a lot of people build them into their offense companies - and waste all of that Support EQ and sometimes trucks, ACs, etc. - when they don't need to. If more people were utilizing Recon in its optimal way, far less people would bother with Armored Cars at all because the benefits the AC gives to the Recon over other forms of Recon aren't as significant as they seem. This is greatly compounded by your recommendation of using Tankette garrisons. You can produce Tankettes faster, cheaper, and with practically the same effectiveness as ACs if you're really desperate to have a mechanized component to your police forces. ACs are not a particularly beneficial tech and I don't believe they're worth investing production in over the other things you could be making more of instead. ACs feel like a "win harder" unit to me; they're rarely the difference between winning and losing, but if you're already ahead, it just helps push you even further ahead. While subjective, my personal experience is that they're not even particularly valuable to low-manpower countries either as originally suggested. If I'm one of those small nations and I have even reached the point of taking land that needs garrisoning afterwards, I find that I'm usually starved for more of the frontline equipment that I used to actually wage that war and I can't afford to split off factories to make ACs. Very rarely are you a low-manpower nation that actually has a strong economic base. Usually being low in one means you're low in the other. It's only after the point in global conquest of "I can produce whatever I want and it doesn't really matter anymore" that I find ACs to really be something worth spinning up production for, but by that point you already own so much of the world and have defeated so many of the strongest nations that rushing that Compliance value to full means less; after all, there's nobody who can honestly contest you by the time ACs feel more valuable to produce over simply getting more war materiel.
Wow thanks I never really thought that I should put that many super heavy tanks in a garrison, but you put it so eloquently, I guess I will be importing the entire world economy to flex on the polish.
I use 50W cav with MP just because it's the cheapest on resources/support equipment. That's it. For the record, I do use support companies in my regular templates and the reduced usage of support equipment is what I want. As for the exp, I tend to make the garrison divisions after I have finished my standard divisions, so it's not a problem.
I miss the old days when my occupation divisions was chonky horsies and when it had line AA or at least support AA as well as support artillery and doubled as invasion protection and enemy air power reducer. Worked well and in emergencies you had divisions with some actual combat value.
I posted this as much on other youtuber videos that i had a single battalion or 5 of armored cars to test this. Since the cars were brand new only being a week old. With a single factory as germany producing them i was able to maintain all of mainland France, but the moment i had annexed all of these far flung territories i went negative 8k in armored cars when previously i had +1.2k in stock. Adding an MP company to either saved me exactly 2.3k in armored cars needed since i had sufficient support equipment. When i added MP but had no support equipment or sufficient cars all of my garrisons continually drained manpower, equipment, and revolted entirely. I messaged Bittersteel its just better to use 5 exp in a single battalion and to use any else you got in either doctrines or in updating your templates/tanks. An alternative solution is to have an ally in your faction and you request raw manpower to assist in garrison duty. Although ironically Portugal is the only nation in the game that can achieve 44% non-core manpower recruitment.
With bigger width and MP (vs small width and MP) you not only save support eq. but also the rest of the equipment and a ton of manpower except the armored cars I tested that myself and you can literary see it in the video at 5:22 and 6:04 (43/23 manpower for example) The difference between 2W and 20W is about 50% but 20W and 50W is almost unnoticeable so 20W armored cars with MP is superior same goes for cavlary so no.. 2W cavlary with MP is NOT just as effective as 50W cavlary with MP... more width is always better at the expense of xp I use any excess xp to save that equipment or manpower if needed (bear in mind that garrisons can easily eat tens of guns a day and by adding more cavlary to the template you can even halve that number - speaking from experience)
What I took from this. All garrison templates supress the same but 50 width with MP costs more in XP terms but 2 width with MP costs more in support equipment terms so its a pick what you want to spend more of which is sort of another choice of somthing luke dispersed or concentrated, it depends on factors like country and economic cost for you to pick which is better for you to use
One exception is, some mods (OWB, CWIC) add Suppression multiplier to (some) frontline battalions. In this case, big garrison division is much more efficient. Recon may not improve attacking divisions, but it makes them faster and that's useful too.
yea kinda weird mechanics for the MP company imo. Sometimes i use AC if i have surplus but MP very rarely. in my head, in order for MP to use lesser support equipment is to make bigger division template (the percent bonus), but if i dont use MP, i dont need support equipment at all.
While I agree with what you are saying here I would word it a little differently. In absolute terms a 50w car template with MP is the most efficient garrison in terms of production. This is indisputable. However that efficiency comes at the cost of army xp, and unless you are in late game or otherwise just sitting on a glut of army xp that you have no further use for it's probably not ideal to waste the army xp just to save a bit of support equipment. All that being said when you get to the point that you've finished your doctrines and maxed your mechs and cars and dialed in all your templates you absolutely should up your garrison templates to 50w to maximize production efficiency assuming you are using MP.
It’s all about the trade off between inf equipment or armored cars vs support equipment. If you have the industry, go for armored cars otherwise go for cav. If you have a surplus of support quip, use MP so you get more bangs for your bucks on your inf equipment loss (aka cost X% less inf equipment to suppress the same region) If you have a shortage in support equipment, don’t use MP.
@Feedback Look at the "manpower and production per suppression point" in the garrison selection dropdown, the game is 'finalizing' suppression prior to the "micro divisions" which appear to handle fractional math... as you well know otherwse in HOI4 the remainders are dropped. This is clear as there is a difference in manpower and production numbers on suppression divisions varying in size between 47-50. Also, using the "large" divisions for garrison gives you a finer level to pull to adjust the number of horses vs armored cars vs light tanks. The MP mechanic is the one that causes the large divisions to be advantageous the most.
Is... Is the point of the big suppression template not to get less support equipment used on military police? Edit: Oh thank God he ends up mentioning it.
The only time you need recon support is if you go Superior Firepower Doctrine which benefits from it late in the tree that gives it a powerful buff so it doesn't suck anymore. So not worth picking it up till then and only if you're forced to fight defensively against an opponent using Grand Battleplan or Mass Assault while looking for opportunities to breakthrough to reach supply hubs, which pretty much boils down to just 3 countries in the entire game and you won't need it till roughly 1942.
I use 10 width cavalry divisions with MP, infantry equipment, and artillery for garrison. The reason why is I use it is because I can also use it for coastal defense as a rapid, easily deployed unit. That way, I’m not wasting XP on it while also getting a unit that can achieve a 2-for-1 purpose. However, with the evidence in this video, I might end up using armored cars in its place for that dual purpose, especially as Germany, the US, or the USSR.
I play modded and changing templates does not cost XP, so I always go 50w horse or car division with MP, but in vanilla, you might want to keep your XP instead of the extra support eq. Also for recon: I use armored recon on panzer divisions to give them extra piercing, as my medium tanks are maxing soft attack/breakthrough. That's the only use I have for light tanks/recon company. And of course, flame tanks, because they are OP.
So with imperial Britain, you just take the stock cav. Brigade and change the cav recon for mp. If you need extra support equipment, add extra cav. If you have extra support equipment and need guns, subtract cav battalions.
I am not a very experienced hoi4 player, but coming from eu4 I always look for things like this instinctively, so it never crossed my mind that people would think making a 50w division for garrisons makes it better at supression than a 2w one
With NSB you can make a light tank with 80% hardness for around 2.5 production cost. It requires the same amount of equipment, provides the same suppression and everything.
Reconissance is still usefull because When u are invading a country the enemy will try to counterattsck at some places, so ur divs will be defending, at some point. May also be usefull if the tables turn and you are on the defensive instead of attaking.
The most cost effective template is early light tanks stripped to nothing but a heavy MG. They cost less production than armor cars (2.5 vs 4 if I remember correctly), have same suppression and 80% Hardness.
Regarding the width, when he is speaking of 50 width is the same effectiveness as 2 width, that means 25x2 width divisions vs 1x50 width division? It can't be that if you need a total of 25 cav units, that 1 will do the same job. You can either build 25, 2 width division or 1, 50 width, right?
@@Jacmac1 Yes but the cost difference is the MP support unit cost. 1 * (25 Cav + 1 MP) = 25 * (1 Cav +1 MP). 1 * (25 * 2.5 * 1.5) = 25 * (1 * 2.5 * 1.5) = 93.75 suppression. The cost is the same for the number of Cavs, but the MP cost(10 support material per MP) is allot higher since you are using 25 MP units instead of just one.
What I hate is in France you can never get rid of underground. I would have max armor cars and M.P, and even drop a few of my spy's there. And nothing, as if the French underground was that effective in the real world. But I will give it a try again.
Did people actually thought this is how garrisons worked? I remember that when LaR came out, community understood garrisons pretty much instantly. Not like in a meta way, what type of unit to use or how to mix them, but in the support equipement cost. Suppresion stays the same no matter the unit size because fractions, but cost of support companies is smaller the bigger division gets, simple as that What about support recon armoured cars? I remember that they too gave suppresion, so making big div with mp and car recon was a good idea. But I didnt look into it recently, Im just usually using big cav with mp and collab govs on biggest enemies
I'm actually pretty curious about that recon armored car question. In a 50 width, my suspicion is that the support company will be worse than a regular battalion of armored car so it'll worsen slightly
So is Recon is excellent if you use a specially created cheap light tank with heavy pierce attack to basically add a little recon and a lot of pierce? "Adding a tank recon company gives your division a movement bonus, extra recon (not so important) AND high piercing (it can mount the same piercing cannon as a medium tank). This design is made fast so that it can be used in motorized divisions too. This support company is much better than anti-tank, since it provides both breakthrough and much more piercing for the same price (~100 IC)" ~Vezachs. So an armored recon support company specifically is not useless as it adds the much needed piercing more effectively than an anti-tank support, while holding true to the recon stat itself is almost useless.
To save military experience you should buy the military idea which makes templete changes free through the MW doctrin. And then use 50 witdh light tanks, or light TD, or medium tanks, or medium TD with MP. Dont use heavy tanks as hardness is capped at 90 procent. If you can do this and still want to save military experience use a single caverly or armoured car templete
Awful. There's a glut of way better alternatives already which is why some players feel compelled to play with increase support company slots through mods. lol
MP does not just require support equipment, but manpower and I believe some guns as well. Also, 50% more suppression is only a 33% reduction of stuff needed
The argument of it works is the same as saying "well yes I can measure and use the exact amount of mortar needed to give this wall stability, but just slathering a lot of every time works."
Sign of intelligence number 1: The ability to admit you are wrong. number 2: To question what you think you know. number 3: To adapt to knew information. number 4: To be comfortable with and able to admit you do not know something. number 5: Because of 1 through 4, the willingness/drive to seek out knew information. number 6: If your second toe appears to be longer than your big toe a.k.a. "Greek Foot"...or so I've heard.
ok i knew about the part where you devide your units for garrison. but it didn´t cross my mind to refund support equip by upgreating the with. but by making your garrison with bigger, you get more support equipment back meaning that larger with is more cost efficient.
Air volunteer exploit, split airwings before sending them. Send tiny airwings at the top of the list to the airport you want then combing them before you send. Can send your full airforce to Spain for xp
You are right that the MPs do reduce the number of divisions to garrison, however the 1/2 (half) is wrong, it should be 2/3 (two thirds), not a big deal but you don't get 100% return on a 50% increase in effectiveness.
Going from 2w w/MP to 50w w/ MP reduced guns and support equipment requirement to 1/10, but not the armored car requirement. So if you're in desperate need of guns then it's viable I guess.
Just did a Raj game. It starts with quite a few Interwar Tanks. WTH? With the armoured division already selected as your garrison division. Surprisingly good, for the same reason as armoured cars for garrisons.
effective? the larger div is more efficient, therefore also more effective the former is cheaper in terms of XP and requires no support kit, the latter is better in every other way
Bigger divisions with MP mean less support equipment AND manpower is needed. Because MP division need manpower too. A 2 width with a MP will actually need more production and manpower than a 2 width with no MP.
Watching your videos makes me want to have a different hobby. But then I'd have to spend years learning the scrimshaw meta or whatever. Basket weaving. Eff it. I guess I'll just keep playing Paradox games and play them poorly. I appreciate what you do. Cheers, from Canada.
If you want a really good hack for garrisons post NSB, use a single interwar medium tank with as low cost as possible (lock the template to use only these old trash tanks). It will be much cheaper than armored cars and will have higher hardness. In fact, you can make them so cheap they're barely more than cavalry if you take all the cost reductions in the new tank designer.
Whenever I'd do a 50w+MP garrison division I'd only ever notice an extremely marginal difference as I increase the horse/armoured car brigades (I'd usually check the difference by hovering the mouse over the button to confirm the changes) - talking differences in the double or triple digits, here. I thought maybe it included infantry equipment, but I realize I could be misremembering and only actually saw manpower and support equipment. Usually I'd just make some garrison division with MPs, put garrisons on high priority reinforcement, and just forget about it. *Maybe* use spies to suppress resistance if it gets really bad, but for the most part it's one of those things I put into the back of my mind and forget, lmao.
I always assumed it, I always used any cavalry division with military police support And that's it, i don't think about garrison anymore, if i think about garrison I'm screwing it up with production or human resources, it's the only way
Personally I found that max armored car division plus MP results in less manpower (and losses). I usually start out with 5x AC and add AC's and MP as the game goes on, and manpower (and equipment requirements, all equipment) go down. In modded games, Mechanized might be better at supression and recon and engineers might also add supression. But it is usually a mono full stack of some unit type plus any support that adds supression that goes on MP duty. In Iron Curtain I think it is/was Air Cav all the way. I don't care about relialbility (As I don't think it has any influence on losses taken on occupation duty, it's not like these troops really exist). Recon: To be honest, all I care about is movement speed increase. Speed is encirclement. If I can encircle the actual quality of my troops is almost irrelevant. Recon gets thrown on because adding it is usually stuff I am already building anyways and every little bit helps. Also some support companies just don't get added for the same reason (late game): When all my AA needs are met with AA tanks (or attached fighers) I'm not going to bother with a line for AA guns. Or if running rocket trucks artillery support doesn't happen
50w interwar tank with MG and MP iv is the best garrison div right now. The only reason why you would not up the div count is its earlier in the game and the large amount of army xp is more useful elsewhere. (Embrace the future fixes this)
But XP is easy to get and manpower is precious to 50 width horses with MP is still better, or armored cars. I would only ever use this early game when I'm still developing other templates and my doctrine, but by 42 I can see zero reason not to just use the 50 width but there is a very good reason not to use the 2 width because the 2 width will cost you more manpower or equipment, one or the other. So 50 is still the really what you need to go for eventually.
I would've said that the stats change based on the ACTUAL division size (as in an entire division vs. half of a division) because people always cling to the template stats (I certainly did, lol). I would've then added that as long as the total amount of suppressions fills the need, the suppression composition doesn't matter (aka template doesn't matter) because 10+10 = 5+5+5+5.
I can only talk about me but i usually done have any support equip (at least most of the time) but am playing with mods that allow free unit templates, so in that case 50w+MP is still the best div
The easiest way to check it out is to make a x width without MP, a 2 W MP and a 10+ W MP. Then go to the button where you can change the garrison template and it tells you how many manpower and production are required for each suppression. 2 W MP is worse than 2 W without MP, because the production cost of the MP is the same as cav while you only get half a cav of suppression.
The easy broad explanation. It doesnt care about the divisions, just manpower. You can have 10 divs with one horse or one div with 10 horses in an aread that needs 10 horses. And then MP adjust your cost becaues of support eq use.
The full horse one is bascally free if you get the proper spirit of the army. You can put 1 or 25, the cost would only be the military police. Plus you don't need to build armored cars with horses.
Adding fully upgraded MPs to 2W cars gives you 50% supression bonus but increases the size by 100%, making it manpower-inefficient. Adding them to 50W cars also gives you 50% bonus while only increasing the size by 4%. Please tell me why I'm wrong or change your mind. Also, 50% increase will only reduce the divisions needed by 1/3 and not by 1/2 (since it should be calculated by 100%/(100%+50%) and not by simply substracting the bonus).
CORRECTIONS:
4:25 Maxed out MP reduces division size by 33% not 50%
5:55 ALSO reduces infantry equiptment and manpower by a sizable amount
8:25 GALAXY BRAIN
Here is the thing, by using MP you are switching manpower for support equipment, and manpower is endless while support equipment is not, you can ask for garrisons support in other countries and in your puppets.
Also you get more manpower from garrisons then you "waste" look at the garrison supply and you will see the manpower you "waste" right above it is the manpower you gain.
The best garrison is not 50 width armored car with MP
Its also not 50 width horse with MP
Its just 1 horse with no MP.
You also should only use civilian adm or local police, never the others because you wanna max compliance as soon as possible.
@@RedSander_BR Manpower is endless? Well, I guess if you're playing China. Perhaps USSR or US. Otherwise? Ha, no.
@@magni5648 ways to get more manpower:
Train puppet divisions then annex then disband them, free manpower
Ask for garrison support from puppets or allies
Up your conscription
Annex land, the garrison manpower cost is lesser then the gain, you get even more manpower with prince of terror, and you get even more as compliance goes up, and you get even even more when the compliance reaches the volunteers
Btw prince of terror is underrated
If you are at the point that you need the manpower from the garrisons then you already lost the war, infantry is supposed to defend not attack, do that and you will conserve manpower.
@@RedSander_BR First two require puppets and drains their manpower.
Upping conscription comes at a price in productivity and cannot be done infinitely.
Annexing non-cores does not provide infinite manpower - in fact, it provides rather little.
And yes, if you start running low on manpower, a very much finite resource, you lose.
@@magni5648 there are also other ways of gaining manpower, like doctrines, and Focus trees.
Here is the answer i gave on reddit.
-There is just 1 thing i think feedback and most of the community is wrong, the use of military police.
I don't think its worth it, by using mp you are switching manpower for support equipment, and manpower is endless because you can puppet nations and ask for garrison support from other countries.
You can also ask from your faction for garrisons.
Also of note you get more manpower then you waste garrisoning, just hover over the garrison supply and you will see the manpower you "waste" and above it you will see the manpower you gain from the non core pop.
There is no extra resistence repression, 1 cav is the same repression as 50 width armored car with MP, the difference is in manpower and equipment,
1 cav uses only manpower and infantry equipment
50 cav uses the same but wastes xp
1 cav with MP uses manpower, infantry equipment and support equipment
50 cav with MP uses the same as above but is more efficient with support equipment.
1 armored car uses manpower infantry equipment and armored cars
50 armored car uses the same but wastes xp
1 armored car with MP uses manpower, infantry equipment, support equipment and armored cars
50 armored cars with MP uses the same but is more efficient
All of those suppress the same amount of resistence, the difference is the first uses more manpower and the last uses less manpower and more equipment.
As manpower is endless the 1° one is better then the last.
Yeah but still, you have endless manpower as a major, and as a minor you don't have enough production
By the time you as a minor have enough production, you will also have enough compliance and get manpower from ocuppations, because the manpower gain from ocuppations is greater then the loss from ocuppying in the first place.
They need to rework suppression and make it so that higher suppression divisions actually increase the suppression.
And make it so that the ocuppation polices instead of suppressing resistence, make it require manpower to increase compliance faster.
Maybe like this:
Emergencial aid, uses 50% more manpower adds 0.05 daily compliance.
Send the doctors, uses 100% more manpower adds 0.1 daily compliance.
The numbers would need to be reworked but you get the idea, the policys we have now are useless with the exception of civilian adm and local police.
Also of note, daily manpower loss is diminished by mothtly grow.
So I tested this by annexing the entire world. 2W cav without MP is pretty much the same as 50W without MP. 50W saved me a grand total of 7 manpower.
The difference comes with MPs. going from 2W cav with MP to 50W cav with MP saves me 434713 manpower (out of 1,3 million, so roughly 1/3), 52890 infantry equipment (out of 108K, so about half) and 8713 support equipment (out of 9.08K, about 95%).
From this I can only conclude that 50W is superior IF you add MP. If not, then 2W is cheaper on MIL XP
bottom line is support equipment loses who can be huge if your germany and your anexing a lot as support equipment is quite slow to make , its equivalent of 1.2 artylery or 8 lv1 infantry equipment , also due "small numbers" it gets more loses becouse of low number of it , if you dont want to spend a lot xp make 10WMP or 20MP , it wont ruin your budget , especialy if your using exiting templates as baseline
you could also grab certain officer doctrines like the ones that give you unlimited horse division designs for 35xp, so 100+ army xp for 35xp, make a 50w horse template...switch to motorized effort and do the same with a tank template or motorized. well, it will only save you 30 or more xp each time but just a thought.
Also you can get Heinrich Himmler for the -25% damage to garrisons and a bonus 2% non core manpower
Sorry i still dont understand. How come you save manpower by adding more width ? Isnt more width=more manpower used in a single division ? (I'm a noob, just starting to learn this game)
@@tebetmania Yeah, I don't exactly understand the mathemagics around that myself. Especially since the extra width reduces manpower usage by ~33% but infantry equipment by ~50%. Those two should be linked and thus the reduction *should* be similar.
My best guess is that it has to do with how the game handles fractions. Since you don't use an entire division to occupy every single state, but rather a portion of it, like "This province requires 0.15 division". Something with how Military Police works makes it so that the chunckier the division you have for the garrison, to less manpower and equipment each individual province needs in order to be considered fully occupied.
There are probably people who know exactly why this works the way it does who could explain it for you. I just know that it works and that you can see it working in game and that's good enough for me.
Edit: Actually, having given it some more thought, here's how I think it works: each province has a set amount of suppression it requires to keep resistance in check. Since adding additional units to the division only adds a flat amount to that division's suppression stat, the numbers remain the same. MPs give a percentage bonus, meaning each new unit you add, adds it's base amount + the MP bonus to the division's suppression stat. As such, the bigger you make it, the more you are taking advantage of that percentage bonus from MPs, and that's why you need less manpower per province, since the suppression stat is based on the entire division.
I was worried you wouldn't mention the support equipment reduction when using big templates. But you did! KUDOZ, CONGRATS and HAVE A HEATLHY and FULFILLING LIFE BRO.
What's weird is he understood that big templates refund support equipment but did not understand that that refund translates to lower cost.
@@Yeoldevideos Yes but you have to factor in the XP cost which can be better spent elsewhere is his point but it's a bit poorly explained.
@@richy2837 Manpower??? What???
His point is that it costs over 100 XP to create a 50w garrison horse division. So you're putting yourself behind on your strategy research for... what? 2w horses is exactly the same suppression, doesn't require support equipment, so just don't waste the XP and make little horsies.
Using less support equipment was always the reason you went for 50 widths. You were dilluting the MP's support equipment.
So you're telling me people went for big divisions because they thought it boosted the stats?
It was also why earlier in the game's history people went for big divisions, you'd dillute the support companies cost while having it effect more infantry. Of course we learned more and the widths also changed.
Thank god somebody understood something about this game.
Yes, feedback is right saying: don't waste XP for Garrison divisions. But when you are 2 year into the war, and you have waay more XP than equipment and manpower, than change your division to 50W+MP2 is worth it.
wait people actually believed that?????
Eh shit, a lot of people actually believed that, me included, at least the garrison stuff
@@Ian501st well, so now you have a big brain: you understood the error and reconsidered your position. Big props
I've only been playing the game for a month, but I thought that people only used the 50 width garrison to dilute support equipment/support manpower.
I'm really surprised anyone thought different because I thought it was well known that's why they exist.
Your way of accepting that being wrong is ok and essential for self improvement is so good and healthy. I have been using this way of thinking for years now and found that it really boosts my ability to learn and grasp new concepts. For example (i'we become a student again, couldn't do my job in the army due to health reasons), while in lectures i will make a claim to my professor about the current subject. If its wrong i get an explanation as to why it's wrong and i learn. If the claim is right it's a simple yes and i revive conformation about my understanding. it's a win-win. Failure truly is the greatest teacher. Lastly: love ur stuff, keep up the good work :)
❤️❤️❤️
@@FeedbackIRL This attitude used to get taught in schools (at least it did in the 90s)
This comment just changed me. Thank you so much man. I've always known failure is a learning opportunity but something about this comment just hit me differently right now. I've failed a lot in life, in college, relationships etc. But I don't think I ever truly took the idea to heart until now. Thank you so much again. Hope you have a great day!
I hate the fact that culture and society frown upon being able to change our minds
It would help if he practiced what he preached.
50W with MP is objectively best (if you have the army experience for it) because it saves the most manpower and support equipment.
Feedback in a nutshell:
1. makes video thinking he's debunking outdated templates or designs
2. realises he's got it wrong after reading the comments and corrects himself in the next video
3. moves on to another topic he knows little about, repeat step 1
Maybe slow down a second, talk to people who know better or just do the math instead of talking out of your hat every time. IW tanks are both better and much cheaper than AC1 (with NSB that is), been that way since 1.11.5, it's stupid and has been reported to the devs while the patch was in beta but they're ignoring it. They completely fumbled tanks and said those wouldn't see any major rebalances despite the many complaints; I don't see it changing any time soon.
I kinda gave up honestly, I had to correct him on all the videos he did lately. This is what happens when your knowledge about a topic relies on an outdated reddit post. I like feedback as an entertainer but I feel really bad about new players trying to learn stuff only to get it wrong. Its nearly impossible to relearn something when you learned it wrong first, thats why old advice from 6 years ago floats around. Some people havent even noticed yet we are past the 20w meta.
To be fair, it’s far better than most content creator’s processes of repeating step one over and over again and never bothering to learn/correct themselves. You do have a fair point, though.
WHAT light tanks are good for garrisons? VIDEO SOON
great war lights go brrrr over the amored cars
@@patropro Everybody got it wrong. Interwar medium tank with 1-man turret, heavy machine gun and riveted armor is the answer. 3.2 IC per tank, 160 per battalion, 85% hardness. That's 2/3 of the cost of an armored car battalion. With higher hardness, equal suppression and manpower requirement.
All of this means not only the medium tank template costs less upfront, it will also cost less equipment and manpower over time as casualties are reduced. For an in-depth understanding of what are the tradeoffs in a garrison template, search for Reman's Paradox. He got an in-depth guide to resistance and compliance ; the core mechanics haven't changed since July 2020, when this video was posted. What changed is the cost of tanks in NSB, making the trashiest IW medium tank possible actually the best vehicle for a garrison template.
Also, the recon comment at the end of the video should come with a caveat ; the test was performed with a specific type of infantry division and a specific level of recon, with divisions on adjacent tiles and starting a fight. While the value of recon is greatly limited by the way tactics work, one aspect that isn't properly assessed is the increased speed, with a recon company giving about +10% movement across most terrains. This means that if you've defeated an enemy, you'll move to occupy the tile potentially faster. The extra speed is also useful if you need to shuffle some divisions from one tile to another when defending. Other situations where the extra speed may come in handy is when trying to overrun a fleeing enemy or making large pincer movements with mobile divisions. Heck, it may even save a retreating division from being overrun. Another subtle effect with recon in the late game is that it opens a possibility to pack roughly an extra 50 soft attack to your division, assuming your division has already reached the maximum width you want ; that's because if you got Superior Firepower's integrated support, that's +50% soft attack to your support companies, and it's possible to design a light tank with close support gun, 1 secondary small cannon turret, 3 MGs and a tank designer giving more soft attack. Though it should be noted it's a costly support company in that case and is really suitable for costly armored divisions that you'd want to improve.
So the real question about the recon company is whether it's worth compared to alternative ways of spending IC and research time at a given time in the game, and with the current industrial and strategic situation of your country.
I feel like its a good italy strat if you're not going to upgrade your crappy yet BEAUTIFUL L33's.
@@KenshiroPlayDotA I wasn't able to get the cost of meds lower than 3.6 but maybe im doing something wrong. But yea, since i didnt/dont fully understand the complete impact hardness has on the garisons, for me the 5% increase for a (calculating with the 3.6) 33% increase in cost did not seem worth it, but if the video is right and that 5% halves the casualties over time I think it's worth it.
EDIT: After a little bit more calculations the 33% increase I wrote is wrong, it should be calculated per batallion, so the real cost would be 2.4*60= 144 ic per light tank and 3.6*50= 180 ic per medium. which means that a med batallion is 25% more expensive.
@@KenshiroPlayDotA Light tank can be way cheaper at 2.4 IC
From my testing, medium are not worth it. The 10% hardness doesn't make enough difference. LT will cost 2.4 IC and medium 3.2 IC. That's 50% more IC.
The issue is that all resistance activity always destroy at least 1 unit of each equipment. So the 10% more hardness make it so in most resistance activity, you still lose the same amount of tank. I found that I lost 46% more IC with medium compared to light. (it does save ~24% manpower over the same period)
When you increase the suppression by with MPs by 50% it only lowers the man power needed by 33% (not by 50%).
The "meta community" never said you should use 50w cav without MP. We always told you to use cav or 50w cav with MP. I even explained this in one of your last videos.
Support company equipment gets x25’d if you make the templete 2 width instead of 50
@@anate9 yes.. hence why I said either you drop it entirely or you use it on max width horses..
When you're at the divison designer, if you mouse over the "save" button, it tells you how much manpower and equipment are refunded with your change. I'm pretty sure with MP there are significant manpower and equipment refund with each battalion added, but almost none without MP.
Yeah, that is the big point Feedback missed
Light Tank are cheaper and better than armored car for garrison NSB
If you make an interwar light tank with the following design, it will cost 2.4 IC. This make it 40% cheaper than armored car ( and has a higher hardness and the same suppression).
It also only cost 1xp to design.
Small armaments - Heavy Machine Gun
One man turret (is by default)
Boggie suspension (is by default)
Riveted armor (is by default)
Gasoline engine (is by default) Diesel has the same production cost, but will cost 6xp to change.
Light tank and armored car have the same suppression value, but light has more hardness, so it will take less loss to resistance activities.
This is still more IC expensive than cavalry, but at least it's closer (57.6IC vs 25.8IC per suppression)
The only research needed is the 1918 gun (which nation has on start) and interwar tank design.
I like how he went out of his way at 1:35 to say someone was wrong by just ignoring what they said, then at 6:00 went on to AGREE with them after calling them an idiot.
A 50% increase in suppression won’t halve the amount of manpower and infantry equipment you need. Closer to a 33% decrease.
If you have the army xp to waste 50w Cav + MP is definitely better than 2w Cav + MP. Let's say you need 1 full 50w Cav + MP to suppress a province that means you would need 25 2w Cav + MP to do the same job. So you are saving the equipment of 24 MPs unit and a significant amount of guns.
It's funny how I can watch two different guides for the same game and be told opposite things. HOI4 is just great.
Test it by yourself :D
It's actually quite a bit cheaper to build light tanks than armored cars after one of the latest patches. They reduced the base cost of light and medium tanks, but didn't reduce the cost of armored cars. You do of course have to create a tank design that's as cheap as possible specifically for garrison duty. You get more hardness as well. Even medium tanks cost less than armored cars, unless they changed it again recently and I missed it.
You think it might be possible to use old type one tanks Garrison duty since you are replacing them anyway and Germany will capture a bunch of them when Czechoslovakia is taken over. That might be a better use than giving it away as aid to Spain or Japan or Japans puppet. Just set it to not receive more modern tanks. When you upgrade the old stuff can go to the Garrison unit.
Another way to think of it is a 2 width with military police uses 25 times more support equipment than a 50 width. So you can spend military points to save on support equipment basically. Adding a few units is worth it but there is diminishing returns the more you add. Going all the way up to 50 width usually isn’t needed.
Yup, the biggest savings is going from 2W to 4W. Each step after that is less than the previous
2->4: saves 1/2 sup eq
4->6: saves 1/3 sup eq
6->8: saves 1/4
…
48->50: saves 1/25
50W is overall the best, but with opportunity cost it is probably best to start at 2W then add battalions if you need support eq
yes, pure cav 2 width is as good as 50 width cav, but with MP the bigger division takes less support equipment and manpower than the small one, i know this because you can see this in game, you can see how much mp and production cost is required for the garrison when choosing the template for garrison
Tell me you didn't make it to the end of the video, without telling me you didn't make to the end of the video
@@FeedbackIRL sorry dad
You missed a very important point. Which nullify most of what you said in the videos.
MP doesn't just cost support equip.
It also cost Manpower (500) and some guns.
So adding MP to a 1 bat armored car double the manpower.
You can see it at 05:06
Div has a suppression of 2.5 for 500 manpower. When you add the support company, the manpower is raised to 1000 for 3.0 suppression.
Respectively, you had 200 manpower per suppresion and then 333.333 Manpower per suppression.
So adding MP to a 1AC division will raise the manpower requirements by ~50%
I made an occupation calculator, if you want to see the exact equipment/manpower required for garrisons and the estimated lost manpower
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BCGSa8v3it6x40ucTlmDJP6SrESNa0jVlqWZxWskQFw/edit#gid=848288542
It's still missing the math for the equipment loss and I'm considering some aspect of resistance (like resistance spreading or governement in exile) As calculating them is too complicated.
thanks. makes sense. suppression/manpower.
Ah, someone else made my point already. Kinda annoying that I went to all that effort to write an essay on why exactly Dave is wrong and someone has presented the facts already.
some extra thoughts to add to this video:
1. always check the suppression stat of your garrison divisions, and remember to mouse over the save button and check how manpower and equipment usages change before you save the template (e: experiment with garrison divisions. what works for on country may not necessarily work for another. 50W with MPs is certainly a great general solution, but you may be able to find alternatives that can make use of spare equipment or a completely different equipment from anything your actual divisions use. armored cars babyyyyyyyyy)
2. changing garrison templates, unless it's to a smaller division that uses the same equipment as before but with less manpower, will always necessitate at least one reinforcement tick, meaning that your garrisons will be briefly considered unfulfilled, so keep that in mind in high resistance scenarios
3. garrison division size only really matters if you have MPs, e.g. while 50W horses with MP1s and 2W horses with MP1s both gain 20% more suppression, the ratio of equipment and manpower works out in the 50W with MP1s favor, given that the 2W with MPs will be using 10 Support Equipment and 160 Infantry Equipment per full division, while the 50W with MPs will be using 10 Support Equipment and 3040 Infantry Equipment per full division, meaning the ratio of SE/IE in a 2W is 10/160 = 0.0625 in 2W with MPs, while the ratio in a 50W with MPs is 10/3040 = 0.00328947368, making the 50W more equipment efficient. this also ties into point one; you can see that if you *add* battalions to a garrison template with MPs, the required manpower and equipment will often go *down* due to the smaller ratio of SE to IE. You can also think of it like a distribution multiplication problem: a 2W MP1 is only 1.2 * 2 = 2.4, while a 50W MP1 is 1.2 * (2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + ... + 2) = 60, meaning that in the 2W, each horse has to have their own MP unit, while in the 50W, all 25 battalions share a single MP unit. maybe thats not the best way to explain it but hopefully you get the gist
4. Spirit of the Army in the Officer Corps tab (the 35 xp one, the middle one) has Proper Heritage, a buff available regardless of doctrine or ideology, that reduces the cost for adding and removing cavalry battalions by 100%, making them free. thus, you actually only need 45 xp to create a 50W + MP garrison template from scratch. there are a few of these kinds of spirits too, like ones that make adding tanks free or adding artillery free, etc.
5. each ideology (aside from non-aligned because pdx hates non-aligned i guess) gets their own unique garrison law. Communists get Liberated Workers, which gives +30% local resources, +20% local factories, and -15% resistance target, but increases damage to garrisons by 25%, while actually only reducing garrisons required by 20%, and reducing daily compliance gain by 0.025, same as local police force. Fascists get Brutal Oppression which reduces resistance target by a whopping 75% but also doubles garrisons required and damage to garrisons, as well as granting -0.110%(!!!!!!) compliance gain. and lastly, Democracies get my personal favorite, Local Autonomy, which does not lower resistance target, but requires -60% garrisons and adds a +0.020% compliance gain bonus, the only garrison law to actually increase compliance gain as far as I am aware.
6. I think that Local Police Force is usually the most effective garrison law given its -20% resistance target, -65% required garrisons, and -50% damage to garrisons with its only real drawback being -0.025% compliance gain, which is also only an "issue" once compliance grows to levels that basically negate the need for that garrison law.
One thing I definitely disagree with is 50 width with MP is definitely worth it. You do not rush it though. Eventually you will fill your military spirits and get the important parts of the doctrine finished.
Thats true. At first the xp is too valuable, but later as the fighting keep going and xp is flowing, might as well boost the division to full width
Proper heritage go brrrr
@@erke7835 That is an interesting but how much exp you actually save from doing that won't be much. 35to pick it and I am going to assume 35 to switch back off unless you want the horse lord memes. That's the cost of adding 14 cav already. Best case scenario is you save 55 army exp if you start with a brand new template.
I guess every little bit helps.
@@danielgloyd4529 you forget you'd be spending 35 anyway for an alternative spirit of the army so it's only a 35 army xp cost for lemme see, 25x5xp=125xp if you don't have a cavalry division in the first place. So I personally do think it's worth it in some situations but after this video obviously 50 width cavalry is only useful in the rare situation that you want MPs but have a support equipment deficit. Said it more for the memes than anything else tbh
The real point is that it's not worthy to using that much XP and I agree because 25 cav alone cost from scratch 125 XP(5x5x5). But if you are assigning thanks to NSB "Proper Heritage" in Officer Corps you can admit cavalry battalions for free for just 35 XP. For example Finland: a 50 cav width+ MP division cost 125 XP but with "Proper Heritage" on just 45 XP.
If manpower is an issue. Tier 1 tank or prewar tank (same cost); basic machine guns, one man turret and bolted armor. Diesel or gas doesn't matter, and reliability does not affect losses on suppression. Don't do wheeled chassis as hardness is important. IC cost of 3.2 per unit. Half the cost of armored cars. 50w+mp. you'll lose very little manpower overall.
2w+mp
Adding more batts to garrison template is profitable only if used with military police, and you can see how much stuff you save by hovering over "save" button, if that template is already chosed in "occupied territories" menu as garrison div.
Making bigger divs with MP also reduces inf equipment and manpower usage.
The main benefit of larger suppression divisions is that you can adjust composition to your production. Adding or subtracting cavalry to adjust the amount of armored cars needed mainly.
Thank you for your wise words. It took me a very long time to realize that I need to accept that sometimes I'm wrong and I need to accept new facts or ideas with sufficient arguments and evidence. Here you are, just spreading it out there.
Light tanks can be pretty effective too.
With No Step Back you can make some extremely cheap light tanks dedicated to garrison (with an inter-war chassis, a machine gun, bogie suspension, riveted armour, ...) and despite being cheap it still counts as a tank, with the same suppression and some decent hardness.
Same suppression and manpower as the armoured car, hardness at least as good (better if you go for the basic chassis instead of inter-war) and same quantity of equipment but cheaper (2 point something for the cheapest tank versus 4 in production cost for an armoured car).
I only realised that yesterday, until now I was still using cavalry all the time (I don't have La Résistance).
The cheapest tank will also have very high reliability, but this I don't know whether or not it affects the losses.
Start of video: 50 w Mp is wrong
End of video: 50 w Mp most cost efficient...
10 minutes of life wasted
8:00 No, effectiveness doesnt matter because suppression scales the units. 1 inf is just as "effective". Its all about efficiency and 50w MP is way more efficient. 1 cav with MP is rubbish because you need the MP cost 50 times.
A 50w cav with mp and a 2w cav with mp is not even comparable. You dont just save the manpower but the guns aswell if you require 25k manpower and 5k guns per cav div you will save half of both per division garrisoning with mp
Super Heavy tanks as garrisons, got it!
The reason you go for 50 width is because you need less support equipment when adding MP (literally 25 times less).
Adding MP then means you need fewer divisions for garrison, saving you manpower and guns.
50 width cavalry with MP is the best template for garrisons.
But if you cannot afford to research MP (or get the free cavalry division designer), then just create a 1 battallion cavalry division, or use a pre-existing cavalry division without any support battallions if you have something like that.
Personally I like to make the 50 width cavalry with MP and then switch individual battallions to armoured cars as I produce more of them to further increase suppression effectiveness and further reduce manpower requirement (manpower is usually the first thing I run out of as Germany).
Thank you for taking the time to go in depth on the mechanics of the game, always looking forward for your takes and your knowledge of the game, cheers!
It's also important to realize that garrison divisions contribute to total number of divisions, which increases your special forces cap.
Isn't the special forces cap entirely based on battallions? So 25 2 width division have the same number of battallions as 1 50 width division, so they provide the same special forces cap?
The way I usually handle all this garrison chaos is by 2-width cav, while creating an armored car 40-50 width with military police, but not putting it in an effect yet. As Germany, you grind a ton of army xp so you can be preparing that template in the background and applying this new, much more effective division to regions where it's needed, like Poland for example, as they tend to get very pissed (who would've guessed), while maintaining a 2-width cav garrison for countries like Czechoslovakia - taken before the conflict - completely annexed, with some additional compliance (around 40%) if the right decision got taken.
You also need to factor in the annoyance and inefficiency of having a totally separate production line and research line for armored cars. Yes, armored cars with MPs may technically be better but it's much more efficient to put those extra couple of factories into infantry equipment. The only countries I can think of that would want armored cars are tiny countries where very single manpower is precious. You are trading research time and equipment production efficiency for manpower.
depends , lots people use armored cars as recon (as its best recon) ,you can also subsidy cars by making "tank" police rather then armored cars , light tanks are incredibly cheap in this version of the game
@@VarenvelDarakus A lot of people also use Recon incorrectly too. As Feedback mentioned, Recon is a defensive company, but a lot of people build them into their offense companies - and waste all of that Support EQ and sometimes trucks, ACs, etc. - when they don't need to. If more people were utilizing Recon in its optimal way, far less people would bother with Armored Cars at all because the benefits the AC gives to the Recon over other forms of Recon aren't as significant as they seem. This is greatly compounded by your recommendation of using Tankette garrisons. You can produce Tankettes faster, cheaper, and with practically the same effectiveness as ACs if you're really desperate to have a mechanized component to your police forces.
ACs are not a particularly beneficial tech and I don't believe they're worth investing production in over the other things you could be making more of instead. ACs feel like a "win harder" unit to me; they're rarely the difference between winning and losing, but if you're already ahead, it just helps push you even further ahead.
While subjective, my personal experience is that they're not even particularly valuable to low-manpower countries either as originally suggested. If I'm one of those small nations and I have even reached the point of taking land that needs garrisoning afterwards, I find that I'm usually starved for more of the frontline equipment that I used to actually wage that war and I can't afford to split off factories to make ACs. Very rarely are you a low-manpower nation that actually has a strong economic base. Usually being low in one means you're low in the other.
It's only after the point in global conquest of "I can produce whatever I want and it doesn't really matter anymore" that I find ACs to really be something worth spinning up production for, but by that point you already own so much of the world and have defeated so many of the strongest nations that rushing that Compliance value to full means less; after all, there's nobody who can honestly contest you by the time ACs feel more valuable to produce over simply getting more war materiel.
4:43 - no, it only reduces the amount needed by 1/3
To garisson 300% of a normal state you need:
3 100%s
Or
2 150%
Wow thanks I never really thought that I should put that many super heavy tanks in a garrison, but you put it so eloquently, I guess I will be importing the entire world economy to flex on the polish.
I use 50W cav with MP just because it's the cheapest on resources/support equipment. That's it.
For the record, I do use support companies in my regular templates and the reduced usage of support equipment is what I want. As for the exp, I tend to make the garrison divisions after I have finished my standard divisions, so it's not a problem.
I miss the old days when my occupation divisions was chonky horsies and when it had line AA or at least support AA as well as support artillery and doubled as invasion protection and enemy air power reducer. Worked well and in emergencies you had divisions with some actual combat value.
That system did have charm. I enjoyed seeing garrisons on the map. But hated when the ai didn't put enough divisions on a city
I posted this as much on other youtuber videos that i had a single battalion or 5 of armored cars to test this. Since the cars were brand new only being a week old. With a single factory as germany producing them i was able to maintain all of mainland France, but the moment i had annexed all of these far flung territories i went negative 8k in armored cars when previously i had +1.2k in stock. Adding an MP company to either saved me exactly 2.3k in armored cars needed since i had sufficient support equipment. When i added MP but had no support equipment or sufficient cars all of my garrisons continually drained manpower, equipment, and revolted entirely.
I messaged Bittersteel its just better to use 5 exp in a single battalion and to use any else you got in either doctrines or in updating your templates/tanks. An alternative solution is to have an ally in your faction and you request raw manpower to assist in garrison duty.
Although ironically Portugal is the only nation in the game that can achieve 44% non-core manpower recruitment.
With bigger width and MP (vs small width and MP) you not only save support eq. but also the rest of the equipment and a ton of manpower except the armored cars
I tested that myself and you can literary see it in the video at 5:22 and 6:04 (43/23 manpower for example)
The difference between 2W and 20W is about 50% but 20W and 50W is almost unnoticeable
so 20W armored cars with MP is superior
same goes for cavlary so no.. 2W cavlary with MP is NOT just as effective as 50W cavlary with MP... more width is always better at the expense of xp
I use any excess xp to save that equipment or manpower if needed (bear in mind that garrisons can easily eat tens of guns a day and by adding more cavlary to the template you can even halve that number - speaking from experience)
I don't know I just put one cav and don't care about resistance for the whole game again.
what i do and ive never had problems also collab governments make it so you have pretty much no resistance anyways so idk why anyone has a problem tbh
What I took from this. All garrison templates supress the same but 50 width with MP costs more in XP terms but 2 width with MP costs more in support equipment terms so its a pick what you want to spend more of which is sort of another choice of somthing luke dispersed or concentrated, it depends on factors like country and economic cost for you to pick which is better for you to use
thanks for this
That last point is so bloody important. Having an open mind is so important!
I use Recon on my coastal defence divisions.
One exception is, some mods (OWB, CWIC) add Suppression multiplier to (some) frontline battalions. In this case, big garrison division is much more efficient.
Recon may not improve attacking divisions, but it makes them faster and that's useful too.
The real meta is to use 75-width self propelled super heavy tanks as garrison.
yea kinda weird mechanics for the MP company imo. Sometimes i use AC if i have surplus but MP very rarely. in my head, in order for MP to use lesser support equipment is to make bigger division template (the percent bonus), but if i dont use MP, i dont need support equipment at all.
While I agree with what you are saying here I would word it a little differently. In absolute terms a 50w car template with MP is the most efficient garrison in terms of production. This is indisputable. However that efficiency comes at the cost of army xp, and unless you are in late game or otherwise just sitting on a glut of army xp that you have no further use for it's probably not ideal to waste the army xp just to save a bit of support equipment. All that being said when you get to the point that you've finished your doctrines and maxed your mechs and cars and dialed in all your templates you absolutely should up your garrison templates to 50w to maximize production efficiency assuming you are using MP.
It’s all about the trade off between inf equipment or armored cars vs support equipment. If you have the industry, go for armored cars otherwise go for cav. If you have a surplus of support quip, use MP so you get more bangs for your bucks on your inf equipment loss (aka cost X% less inf equipment to suppress the same region) If you have a shortage in support equipment, don’t use MP.
@Feedback Look at the "manpower and production per suppression point" in the garrison selection dropdown, the game is 'finalizing' suppression prior to the "micro divisions" which appear to handle fractional math... as you well know otherwse in HOI4 the remainders are dropped.
This is clear as there is a difference in manpower and production numbers on suppression divisions varying in size between 47-50.
Also, using the "large" divisions for garrison gives you a finer level to pull to adjust the number of horses vs armored cars vs light tanks. The MP mechanic is the one that causes the large divisions to be advantageous the most.
I got it as soon as you noted the Garrison percentages. Got it and thanks. So a 50 cav with MP will also reduce Support Equipment.
Is... Is the point of the big suppression template not to get less support equipment used on military police?
Edit: Oh thank God he ends up mentioning it.
Super helpful! I never understood garrisons at all
Bruh
Here I am creating 52 width horse and light tank divisions with MP
The only time you need recon support is if you go Superior Firepower Doctrine which benefits from it late in the tree that gives it a powerful buff so it doesn't suck anymore. So not worth picking it up till then and only if you're forced to fight defensively against an opponent using Grand Battleplan or Mass Assault while looking for opportunities to breakthrough to reach supply hubs, which pretty much boils down to just 3 countries in the entire game and you won't need it till roughly 1942.
I use 10 width cavalry divisions with MP, infantry equipment, and artillery for garrison.
The reason why is I use it is because I can also use it for coastal defense as a rapid, easily deployed unit. That way, I’m not wasting XP on it while also getting a unit that can achieve a 2-for-1 purpose.
However, with the evidence in this video, I might end up using armored cars in its place for that dual purpose, especially as Germany, the US, or the USSR.
I play modded and changing templates does not cost XP, so I always go 50w horse or car division with MP, but in vanilla, you might want to keep your XP instead of the extra support eq. Also for recon: I use armored recon on panzer divisions to give them extra piercing, as my medium tanks are maxing soft attack/breakthrough. That's the only use I have for light tanks/recon company. And of course, flame tanks, because they are OP.
So with imperial Britain, you just take the stock cav. Brigade and change the cav recon for mp. If you need extra support equipment, add extra cav. If you have extra support equipment and need guns, subtract cav battalions.
I am not a very experienced hoi4 player, but coming from eu4 I always look for things like this instinctively, so it never crossed my mind that people would think making a 50w division for garrisons makes it better at supression than a 2w one
Nobody thought that. People use 50w to make maximum use of the MP support company.
With NSB you can make a light tank with 80% hardness for around 2.5 production cost. It requires the same amount of equipment, provides the same suppression and everything.
Reconissance is still usefull because
When u are invading a country the enemy will try to counterattsck at some places, so ur divs will be defending, at some point.
May also be usefull if the tables turn and you are on the defensive instead of attaking.
And the speed boost
The most cost effective template is early light tanks stripped to nothing but a heavy MG. They cost less production than armor cars (2.5 vs 4 if I remember correctly), have same suppression and 80% Hardness.
Regarding the width, when he is speaking of 50 width is the same effectiveness as 2 width, that means 25x2 width divisions vs 1x50 width division? It can't be that if you need a total of 25 cav units, that 1 will do the same job. You can either build 25, 2 width division or 1, 50 width, right?
@@Jacmac1 Yes but the cost difference is the MP support unit cost.
1 * (25 Cav + 1 MP) = 25 * (1 Cav +1 MP).
1 * (25 * 2.5 * 1.5) = 25 * (1 * 2.5 * 1.5) = 93.75 suppression.
The cost is the same for the number of Cavs, but the MP cost(10 support material per MP) is allot higher since you are using 25 MP units instead of just one.
What I hate is in France you can never get rid of underground. I would have max armor cars and M.P, and even drop a few of my spy's there. And nothing, as if the French underground was that effective in the real world. But I will give it a try again.
I don't bother with 50w mp divisions because it's a huge waste of army xp
Big Garrision IS the way to go as soon as you have MPs
Did people actually thought this is how garrisons worked? I remember that when LaR came out, community understood garrisons pretty much instantly. Not like in a meta way, what type of unit to use or how to mix them, but in the support equipement cost. Suppresion stays the same no matter the unit size because fractions, but cost of support companies is smaller the bigger division gets, simple as that
What about support recon armoured cars? I remember that they too gave suppresion, so making big div with mp and car recon was a good idea. But I didnt look into it recently, Im just usually using big cav with mp and collab govs on biggest enemies
I'm actually pretty curious about that recon armored car question. In a 50 width, my suspicion is that the support company will be worse than a regular battalion of armored car so it'll worsen slightly
So is Recon is excellent if you use a specially created cheap light tank with heavy pierce attack to basically add a little recon and a lot of pierce? "Adding a tank recon company gives your division a movement bonus, extra recon (not so important) AND high piercing (it can mount the same piercing cannon as a medium tank). This design is made fast so that it can be used in motorized divisions too. This support company is much better than anti-tank, since it provides both breakthrough and much more piercing for the same price (~100 IC)" ~Vezachs. So an armored recon support company specifically is not useless as it adds the much needed piercing more effectively than an anti-tank support, while holding true to the recon stat itself is almost useless.
To save military experience you should buy the military idea which makes templete changes free through the MW doctrin. And then use 50 witdh light tanks, or light TD, or medium tanks, or medium TD with MP. Dont use heavy tanks as hardness is capped at 90 procent.
If you can do this and still want to save military experience use a single caverly or armoured car templete
Feedback you should try MP on units for the offensive they give more soft attack stats then most of the support companies (engineer company etc.)
Military police only
thats because MPs add a bunch of dudes with guns, really thats it. Thats also why adding logistics raises your stats a little
Awful. There's a glut of way better alternatives already which is why some players feel compelled to play with increase support company slots through mods. lol
MP does not just require support equipment, but manpower and I believe some guns as well.
Also, 50% more suppression is only a 33% reduction of stuff needed
Check pinned comment for corrections
The argument of it works is the same as saying "well yes I can measure and use the exact amount of mortar needed to give this wall stability, but just slathering a lot of every time works."
Dave. This is what I needed Dave. Well done Dave.
Sign of intelligence number 1: The ability to admit you are wrong.
number 2: To question what you think you know.
number 3: To adapt to knew information.
number 4: To be comfortable with and able to admit you do not know something.
number 5: Because of 1 through 4, the willingness/drive to seek out knew information.
number 6: If your second toe appears to be longer than your big toe a.k.a. "Greek Foot"...or so I've heard.
Great video, man. Beautiful outtake as well, greetings from Mexico.
ok i knew about the part where you devide your units for garrison. but it didn´t cross my mind to refund support equip by upgreating the with. but by making your garrison with bigger, you get more support equipment back meaning that larger with is more cost efficient.
Air volunteer exploit, split airwings before sending them. Send tiny airwings at the top of the list to the airport you want then combing them before you send. Can send your full airforce to Spain for xp
You are right that the MPs do reduce the number of divisions to garrison, however the 1/2 (half) is wrong, it should be 2/3 (two thirds), not a big deal but you don't get 100% return on a 50% increase in effectiveness.
Going from 2w w/MP to 50w w/ MP reduced guns and support equipment requirement to 1/10, but not the armored car requirement.
So if you're in desperate need of guns then it's viable I guess.
Just did a Raj game. It starts with quite a few Interwar Tanks. WTH? With the armoured division already selected as your garrison division. Surprisingly good, for the same reason as armoured cars for garrisons.
It's all about wording. 2 width is as effective as 50 width+MP, but the later is more efficient.
effective? the larger div is more efficient, therefore also more effective
the former is cheaper in terms of XP and requires no support kit, the latter is better in every other way
十分有趣，MP 跟50W 的軍隊還是有效的
儘管在"壓制力的需求"還是不變的，但是(MP)額外的壓制力 可以減少的一般裝備與人力的使用
而且50W有更少的支援裝備 需求
所以 最高的編制還是有用的，實際上更好，因為新的軍隊加成不需要消耗經驗值擴編，就能減少裝備的使用，基本上你只需要消耗10點經驗跟一點點時間去點擊
Bigger divisions with MP mean less support equipment AND manpower is needed. Because MP division need manpower too. A 2 width with a MP will actually need more production and manpower than a 2 width with no MP.
Watching your videos makes me want to have a different hobby. But then I'd have to spend years learning the scrimshaw meta or whatever. Basket weaving. Eff it. I guess I'll just keep playing Paradox games and play them poorly. I appreciate what you do. Cheers, from Canada.
I believe in your basket weaving dreams
If you want a really good hack for garrisons post NSB, use a single interwar medium tank with as low cost as possible (lock the template to use only these old trash tanks). It will be much cheaper than armored cars and will have higher hardness. In fact, you can make them so cheap they're barely more than cavalry if you take all the cost reductions in the new tank designer.
This is the 2022 equivalent of watching Aristotle create a new philosophy in the acropolis
Whenever I'd do a 50w+MP garrison division I'd only ever notice an extremely marginal difference as I increase the horse/armoured car brigades (I'd usually check the difference by hovering the mouse over the button to confirm the changes) - talking differences in the double or triple digits, here. I thought maybe it included infantry equipment, but I realize I could be misremembering and only actually saw manpower and support equipment. Usually I'd just make some garrison division with MPs, put garrisons on high priority reinforcement, and just forget about it. *Maybe* use spies to suppress resistance if it gets really bad, but for the most part it's one of those things I put into the back of my mind and forget, lmao.
Feedback telling me why everything I know is wrong. And proceeds to explain exactly what I already knew, and already meta.
I always assumed it, I always used any cavalry division with military police support
And that's it, i don't think about garrison anymore, if i think about garrison I'm screwing it up with production or human resources, it's the only way
the True galaxy brain, when queried "what's your source" will reply simply, "the universe revealed it to me" or "i made it up"
SOURCE: "Dude, just trust me"
Personally I found that max armored car division plus MP results in less manpower (and losses). I usually start out with 5x AC and add AC's and MP as the game goes on, and manpower (and equipment requirements, all equipment) go down.
In modded games, Mechanized might be better at supression and recon and engineers might also add supression. But it is usually a mono full stack of some unit type plus any support that adds supression that goes on MP duty. In Iron Curtain I think it is/was Air Cav all the way.
I don't care about relialbility (As I don't think it has any influence on losses taken on occupation duty, it's not like these troops really exist).
Recon: To be honest, all I care about is movement speed increase. Speed is encirclement. If I can encircle the actual quality of my troops is almost irrelevant. Recon gets thrown on because adding it is usually stuff I am already building anyways and every little bit helps. Also some support companies just don't get added for the same reason (late game): When all my AA needs are met with AA tanks (or attached fighers) I'm not going to bother with a line for AA guns. Or if running rocket trucks artillery support doesn't happen
50w interwar tank with MG and MP iv is the best garrison div right now. The only reason why you would not up the div count is its earlier in the game and the large amount of army xp is more useful elsewhere. (Embrace the future fixes this)
why tanks?
But XP is easy to get and manpower is precious to 50 width horses with MP is still better, or armored cars. I would only ever use this early game when I'm still developing other templates and my doctrine, but by 42 I can see zero reason not to just use the 50 width but there is a very good reason not to use the 2 width because the 2 width will cost you more manpower or equipment, one or the other. So 50 is still the really what you need to go for eventually.
I would've said that the stats change based on the ACTUAL division size (as in an entire division vs. half of a division) because people always cling to the template stats (I certainly did, lol).
I would've then added that as long as the total amount of suppressions fills the need, the suppression composition doesn't matter (aka template doesn't matter) because 10+10 = 5+5+5+5.
The 4th division template is a combination of armoured cars and cavalry to have a combination of cost and hardness
I can only talk about me but i usually done have any support equip (at least most of the time) but am playing with mods that allow free unit templates, so in that case 50w+MP is still the best div
The easiest way to check it out is to make a x width without MP, a 2 W MP and a 10+ W MP. Then go to the button where you can change the garrison template and it tells you how many manpower and production are required for each suppression. 2 W MP is worse than 2 W without MP, because the production cost of the MP is the same as cav while you only get half a cav of suppression.
The easy broad explanation. It doesnt care about the divisions, just manpower. You can have 10 divs with one horse or one div with 10 horses in an aread that needs 10 horses. And then MP adjust your cost becaues of support eq use.
The full horse one is bascally free if you get the proper spirit of the army. You can put 1 or 25, the cost would only be the military police.
Plus you don't need to build armored cars with horses.
Adding fully upgraded MPs to 2W cars gives you 50% supression bonus but increases the size by 100%, making it manpower-inefficient. Adding them to 50W cars also gives you 50% bonus while only increasing the size by 4%. Please tell me why I'm wrong or change your mind. Also, 50% increase will only reduce the divisions needed by 1/3 and not by 1/2 (since it should be calculated by 100%/(100%+50%) and not by simply substracting the bonus).