hmmmm...it is interesting, indeed🤔. I think the history of Karate is in fact complex and not so easy to write down. For me personally, it started with commerce, traiding and socialcultural exchanges. We shouldn´t forget that Kumemura was an established cultural and political centre of chinese origin since the 14th.century. Difficult to imagine that the okinawan warrios never learned or trained with the residents of Kume. Of course, japanese martial arts had been even trained and practiced in old Ryukyu- Kingdom. But the idea of this Oni Oshiro is fascinating!! Thank you, Tim. 🙏🙏 PS: Where is "my" Flash? 😂 I miss him 🤣🤣
There is evidence of Japanese martial arts present as early as the 12th century. This is what helped the Sho dynasty take power in Ryukyu. I haven’t studied Kume’s influence yet, maybe later… “Flash” will return 😉 EDIT: I’ve got something really fun for the next bunkai video, quite brutal too 😁
Any other supporting references of this? Probably depends on style as well. We know Uechi ryu was from China. Originally called Pangainoon and renamed after Kanbun Uechi (who brought back the system from China) around the time of his death. Goju, I believe is also from Fujian province and is derived from white crane. The Japanese arts you referenced are not Empty Hand (or Chinese hand). I wouldn't call them "Karate" just because they are martial arts from Japan. From what I understand there is little to none written history on karate dating back a century or more as well. I am always ready to be educated, but I need to see written documents, essays, thoughts, from the past rather than oral stories passed down. Then we get what's known as "telephone".
Other supporting references can be found in the works of Andreas Quast, or Ryan Parker, both noted Karate historians. Concerning “karate” as a term, that’s what I open with, the term was officially instated in 1936 in Japan, but can be used for convenience sake when talking about unarmed combat from Okinawa because there simply were many different terms. Also, Chibana, Nagamine, Funakoshi etc all called it Karate in their works. Who are we to say different, right? I never claim that Karate “only” came from Japan either, Chinese influence is clearly there, so is Okinawan influence (and other south east asian martial arts)… I just thought it interesting that the Japanese input was already there so early…
Based on what I’m reading, “Ti” was more like Kenjutsu, whereas “Toti” was more like Kempo… it’s however almost impossible to know for sure, because though we have written sources, much of it is either biased, incomplete, or just straight up changed deliberately for mostly political reasons. Don’t forget that sources from that time had to go through either a Chinese (communist), or a Japanese (fascist) filter long before they got to us! I love diving in history, but fact and fiction are sometimes hard to tell apart…
of course unarmed, but I mean certain movements can be translated to unarmed fighting… then again, as I’m rereading this… you have a point 😅 you know what, I’m going to ask around, maybe I can make a future video clarifying this 🤷♂️
I have not heard this before that's awesome
Andi Quast's little book on Oni Oshiro is indeed well worth reading! :-)
It is, right? 😁
hmmmm...it is interesting, indeed🤔.
I think the history of Karate is in fact complex and not so easy to write down.
For me personally, it started with commerce, traiding and socialcultural exchanges.
We shouldn´t forget that Kumemura was an established cultural and political centre of chinese origin since the 14th.century.
Difficult to imagine that the okinawan warrios never learned or trained with the residents of Kume.
Of course, japanese martial arts had been even trained and practiced in old Ryukyu- Kingdom.
But the idea of this Oni Oshiro is fascinating!!
Thank you, Tim. 🙏🙏
PS: Where is "my" Flash? 😂 I miss him 🤣🤣
There is evidence of Japanese martial arts present as early as the 12th century. This is what helped the Sho dynasty take power in Ryukyu.
I haven’t studied Kume’s influence yet, maybe later…
“Flash” will return 😉
EDIT: I’ve got something really fun for the next bunkai video, quite brutal too 😁
Any other supporting references of this? Probably depends on style as well. We know Uechi ryu was from China. Originally called Pangainoon and renamed after Kanbun Uechi (who brought back the system from China) around the time of his death. Goju, I believe is also from Fujian province and is derived from white crane. The Japanese arts you referenced are not Empty Hand (or Chinese hand). I wouldn't call them "Karate" just because they are martial arts from Japan. From what I understand there is little to none written history on karate dating back a century or more as well. I am always ready to be educated, but I need to see written documents, essays, thoughts, from the past rather than oral stories passed down. Then we get what's known as "telephone".
I suppose they learned some Atemi from Japanese mainlanders, but only as a supplement to their traditional wrestling.
Other supporting references can be found in the works of Andreas Quast, or Ryan Parker, both noted Karate historians.
Concerning “karate” as a term, that’s what I open with, the term was officially instated in 1936 in Japan, but can be used for convenience sake when talking about unarmed combat from Okinawa because there simply were many different terms. Also, Chibana, Nagamine, Funakoshi etc all called it Karate in their works. Who are we to say different, right?
I never claim that Karate “only” came from Japan either, Chinese influence is clearly there, so is Okinawan influence (and other south east asian martial arts)… I just thought it interesting that the Japanese input was already there so early…
Wasn’t he the predecessor of Kenwa Mabuni sensei
Yes, as I say in the video, both the Mabuni and Hokama families are part of Oshiro’s lineage
Ti and Toti aren't the same thing.
Indeed, that’s what I say in the video… or to be more exact, that’s what Chibana said.
@@timthenunes I've heard speculation that Ti was like May Thai... I doubt it myself.
It would have been good to see it, but it seems to have died out.
Based on what I’m reading, “Ti” was more like Kenjutsu, whereas “Toti” was more like Kempo… it’s however almost impossible to know for sure, because though we have written sources, much of it is either biased, incomplete, or just straight up changed deliberately for mostly political reasons. Don’t forget that sources from that time had to go through either a Chinese (communist), or a Japanese (fascist) filter long before they got to us! I love diving in history, but fact and fiction are sometimes hard to tell apart…
@@timthenunes why would an art called "hand" be like sword fighting?
of course unarmed, but I mean certain movements can be translated to unarmed fighting… then again, as I’m rereading this… you have a point 😅 you know what, I’m going to ask around, maybe I can make a future video clarifying this 🤷♂️