How GOOD Is Nell ACTUALLY?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.ค. 2024
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How GOOD Is Nell ACTUALLY?
#awbw #advancewars #nintendo - เกม
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I have severe a gambling addiction.
considering the TES and Fallout games yeah its a Huge Gamble alright
Dont worry todd, it just works
Well, buddy, you came to the right place
Nice!
Oh my gawd, Todd Howard!
About Nell being all luck:
"Most opportunities are created by luck, but it takes skill to grasp those opportunities and turn them into success".
Ooh good comment!
Good point!
Reminds me of people who play games like FTL, Slay the Spire or XCOM and decry the game as only being about luck. RNG plays a big role in those games, but skillful play is about managing your luck. Knowing what risks to take, and what not to take, and knowing that 99% != 100%.
ayoooo only a fake gambler will stop gambling !
Right. It's like the Machiavellian concepts of 'virtus' and 'fortuna'... One has to have fortune in order for the virtuosity to reap from the opportunity.
Get ready everyone. It’s time for Math with Mangs.
Mangs infused with the power of math is too big of a threat. We need to do something about him!
Anyone who plays D&D will tell you; it's not about rolling high. It's about rolling at the right time. About being in a position to tank low rolls, and capitalize on high rolls. If you can't do that, you can't win, no matter how lucky you are.
So what you're saying is... luck is a skill?
@@YourFunkiness So... luck issue?
so basicly that called luck
Nice devil survivor pfp
@@YourFunkiness he says that “luck” is not rolling a high but doing what he is saying, it’s still “luck” but not just getting the highest number
As a CO: Not as good as people would think
As a waifu: Best
Damn she's cute on that remake art style
History of Nell in Competitive Advance Wars
I don't know why this was recommended to me, I've never even played these games. But I still enjoyed the video, everything was explained well enough that I got the basic idea of what was being discussed and it was delivered in a clear, concise, and entertaining way that held my attention. Excellent job!
I think that Nell is roughly tier 1.5-1.8, I think that properly played she actually is around the top of tier 2 and the bottom of tier 1. The thing is, you don't *have* to play her any differently than a "stock" CO with no abilities, since she has zero weaknesses. She just randomly gives you extra surprise damage. Now, with her powers active that means that on average you can take extra risks, and get a lot of bonus damage (and you should, like risking an infantry for a tank), but you can also play conservative and it still works. That's her big meta strength, I think; you can play carefully or go for glory and she has the ability to work, as long as you're not outright stupid about it.
She's literally just a better flak and this is how you play flak.
I like her placement on this video, Nell being a midcard T2 is probably as close to accurate as one can get. No one wants to play against her, T4 feels wrong as she can wreck all other T4s and is also mostly favorable against T3s, putting her as T2 on AWBW would carry the notion of her being balanced which would give admins headache when people start asking why is she banned, so her being a pseudo T0 on the website is probably for the best as they are all banned anyway. Lash is probably the T3 with the best chance against Nell on certain maps, but Lash air do not get terrain stars while Nell luck applies to everyone so I see Nell grinding Lash down little by little more than the opposite.
I disagree. Lash would have a hard time against Nell. Her d2d does nothing to prevent the luck damage and her SCOP is so expensive to do something with it consistenly, but Drake or Kindle would have a better time cuz of Global damage and in the case of Kindle extra features such as the city thingy power boost
I don't understand Advance Wars tier lists at all. Why is Max t2 when he is considered overpowered by the community? And Adder is most played, but he's in the same tier as Flak? And Jess is in the same tier as Flak?? 🤔
@@Eviscerator18 Max in AW2 was majorly nerfed from AW1 (losing his 50% firepower increase to a 20% increase D2D). Jess had the opposite fate, having a major buff in AWDS, yet AWBW has her AW2 stats, which means her infantry game and CO Powers(?) are weak.
@@Eviscerator18 Adder is same Tier as Flak even though Adder is most picked, especially at mixed base maps because:
1. Luck COs are always banned in Global League (AWBW's Competitive matchmaking), this include Flak
2. Flak (and Jugger)is T3 in High Funds for some reason (maybe someone that control the tierlist getting beaten by Flak's & Jugger's luck because Luck damage doesn't care high tech units (which are plemty for this gamemode) that have high defense / receive low % damage.
3. Adder is more consistent and unlike Flak in addition no weakness, in addition his movement give him first strike on direct units just 1-2 tiles away from in range and reinforce/capture 1-2 tiles closer.
4. COs just need to be weak in tier above but too strong in tier below, this make every COs have fighting chance in the same tier until T4 exist (which doesn't have tier below) so Jake & Adder is consistently strong in 9/10 maps despite other COs in the same tier are weaker due to they can't be put into T5 which doesn't exist for now, this may cahnce if the map favor certain COs like mixed base favor Adder which put him in T3 in most mixed base maps.
In Standard play she could definitely pass for Tier 2 as Mangs outlined. However her potential to utilize the deathball Strategy with Infantry dispersed throughout, aswell as set up ambushes tips the scale far enough to warrant Tier 1 in Fog imo.
She might not be any lower than bottom 2 in Tier 1 in Fog, however theoretically I imagine her potential is greatly increased when your opponent doesn't know your armies location. Due to that I would roughly rate her as a Tier 1 CO in FOW matches.
Granted bigger maps she will definitely be less terrifying, however wallbreaking her is going to hurt you more than just about any CO due to how Infantry and backup Recons become such vicious Glass Cannons. This is all theorizing though, I would love to see two very good players try a mid size Map with Nell vs Tier 1 FOW.
All things considered, Max is probably the best CO to compare her with in terms of pros and cons you could have picked to measure her Tier:
Max has a higher damage consistency with his direct vehicles, but Nell's bonuses can kick in from a distance, and in terms of Infantry and Mechs vs each other, Nell is prone to having a little more damage dealt leaning in her favor.
In terms of Powers and Supers, Max has what it takes to "snipe" at her with the extra movement range only he benefits from, but a Nell managing to time her Powers and Supers well may melt through his units once within range, at times with drastic cost-effective results.
Nell is otherwise relying purely on fundamentals with some Luck present, and she has no weaknesses of any kind either. She is a better Olaf than Olaf on base skill, except on Snow. She can't out-infantry Sami, but the rest of her army is a tough bar to deal with, and her Recons can certainly give Sami's own and her Infantry a hard time for relatively cheap to slow their advance. And only Eagle's flying units make Nell hold back a bit when the rest of his army is inferior overall without Super. Tier 2 seems alright for her.
Another thing about Nell is her counterattacks. While Lady Luck is up it's so scary to attack her units.
another thing to consider is, that when playing against nell, you can think around her power.
everyone likes to bring up the "nell infantry one-punching neotanks" argument, but when playing against nell on standard or fog, you most likely will not have to build a neotank, so just don't do it. If you rely on bread and butter units, the worst that can basically happen is losing a battlecopter(value wise), And building expensive units as nell is not really playing into her advantage, so i think most COs can simply try to keep their value per unit low as well, and stick to defensive terrain to keep nells powers to a minimum.
Sounds about right. Punishing her Medium Tanks is the best Nell can reliably do. If you're going to buy an expensive unit against Nell, just use Bombers, which are already super-weak to anything that is able to hit them.
@@Sines314 with her super powerr, infantry will on average do 5 damage to a tank.
You got his point and missed it a bit too.
That's a good idea, but that doesn't stop the Nell from teching up while you refuse too, and using her tech up to outscale you.
basically she will tech up forcing you to counter then she can try to grab value with her gamble.
I see you, Sensei Theme while talking about the B Copter rush❤
Flak and Jugger disliked this video.
Nels value doesn’t come from comparing tanks vs tank. Nels value comes from the fact that on average when she pops her superpower, any unit will deal 5hp on average or more to every other unit in the game. What effectively this means is on average it’s a global deal 5 damage to all enemy units if Nel has a unit within range.
Though i am inclined to agree with you at first, i do believe Mangs agree with that, and chooses to show only situations that are most likely to happen in AWBW competitive matches. Sure all of Nell's unit gain indiscriminate giant firepower boost from her powers and day to day, but trying to build and even spam units that are not as agile or as powerful as a tank, or a non-infantry, just to capitalize on Nell's ability is sure to get you an ass whoopin' by floods of tanks.
For example, other people have said that Nell's recon are highly mobile glass cannons that can easily be maneuvered to set a surprise wallbreak. While sure that is true because of her luck, spamming recon will guarantee a roll because recons don't stand against tank before Nell's power is popped. And even building just some few early on instead of tanks could break your pace and give your opponent an upper hand in the tempo, as they inevitably have more tanks and thus more area control and cities' funds, furthermore hampering you from actually popping your power and not get overwhelmed.
Looking at this, i just realized how aside from copters, tanks, and infantries, Nell's superpower are situational haymakers. Aside from those three units, could Nell really afford to have an army with other units as a core? Like mentioned before, recons are bad without the power. Anti Air? Sure you build one or two either way when there is an airport, but would you really risk leaving it in the open and sacking one just to sneak a considerable hit onto a tank or an MD tank? Especially when there's still air units? Mechs rarely engage enemies with their 3 movement speed and more often than not gets hit first down to low HP, rendering the luck useless (except for AW1).
Artilleries, rockets, and missiles? Nope, don't think so. Artys and rockets already do tremendous amount of damage to tanks and while the luck does help, the base damage of indirects without luck already scare away most tanks, or if they aren't scared, then your indirects are dead anyway. But what about the big ones? Like MD tanks, neotanks, and or Megatanks? Well, how can those units be hit in the first place? They need to be in range of your indirects, but not too close, meaning those units would have to stop by the wall of units near your indirects. And you know what those units does best? Smashing that wall to let other cheaper and or more agile units, like say, a tank, destroy the squishy indirects. And if there is no way for even those units to break your wall? Then those units won't be parked in range in the first place, and it certainly doesn't help that Nell's wall isn't strengthened by higher defense or farther indirects like Grit.
Then, air units. Copters, already mentioned in the video. Bombers and fighters? Overkill when high HP, underwhelming and less effective on mid-low HP. Sea units? I pray for your luck for the day naval battle actually happens.
TL;DR: True that most units can benefit from Nell's luck, but only tanks, infantries, and copters can feasibly engage with less risk and more profit, with few handful exceptions that can happen.
@@aereonexapprentice7205 The thing that people dont understand about
Nell, is that she can send chaffe against big units, and big units against chaffe utilizing the power of luck to mitigate the damage she would have received on her higher value units. As an example, lets pretend I have a Md. Tank and 2 tanks against an enemy Md. Tank and 2 tanks. With Nel's super CO power, I can send the tank against the MD tank, and deal on average 6.5 damage to it, meaning I'm now left with a 8hp tank, and have obliterated my enemy's 2 tanks and Md. Tank. the 3HP Md. Tank has effectively been taken out of the fight, without seeing any real risk to my own. Max Blast, which Mangs falsely compares this to, is only doing 2-3 damage to the medium tank in this scenario, forcing me to commit the Md. Tank against the Md. Tank. If you send Max's medium tank and Nell's medium tank against a medium tank it looks much more like Mangs describes, but the power of nell is the ability to use lower tech units against a single tier higher and still get a very desirable outcome.
Wait… didn’t Nell and Grit use to be a thing before the events of AW 1? If so that’s fascinating that the developers might have been hinting at a play style similar to grit.
You don’t hope for high luck. You use luck for unexpected damage. High rolls are the frosting; good matchups are the cake.
I would say AW 1 Nell is stronger, because it’s more likely that an engagement occurs where your unit is missing hp, than an engagement where your unit deals absolutely no damage. AW2 Nell has more meme potential though, with tanks sinking battleships and infantry nuking neotanks.
Well, as a Waifu, she's Tier 0. Specially with her new reboot design.
Agreed
False swipe gaming moment
I agree with Nell being at Tier 2, but I disagree it wouldn't be viable to have her on global league. See, as you said, using Nell is not all about luck, in most cases her day to day isn't threatening and her powers can hamper hard her infantry count. Her powers without movement bonus aren"t that great, I'd ague Max's are slightly better. One of the most common strategies to minimize Nell's powers is to stand on terrain, which you normally want to do anyway. Luck won't win you the game by its own, you'll still need the right positioning, builds, game aweraness and other skills to push her advantages. So, Nell and the other luck-based CO's can be viable on league, as an example, people is completely fine with Rachel's COP ( even though it gets outshined by her SCOP, it's a nice niche alternative I've seen some great players do). It just upsets me that we have a global league with 9 out of the 28 CO's unusable.
We do have High Fund where you can play most COs ;3
Nell becomes scary the more units she has to do her random number tricks.
Ye.
Nell as a CO is almost always better served by, say, buying 2 infantry than 1 mech, and that playstyle shift has to be looked at.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 EVERY CO does better buying 2 Infantry over 1 Mech though lol, even Sami.
Playing Nell doesn't mean you get any more units than anyone else because you're still base-limited, you just benefit relatively more from having more bases than others do. Her actual army composition doesn't change much from a bog-standard CO either because she still needs a functional army to fight with when her powers aren't active.
@@ShawFujikawa
Infantry vs Mechs was a bad comparison, I just picked it because of the simple value difference. 2 1000 being preferable to 1 3000, ect.
My bad.
I can't believe you did not mention the most broken ground unit for nell: Her recons. On turns before you pop lady luck, Build recons on road based map so once you pop her power, her recons become 8 movement killing machines. Sure, Tanks are usually better, but Sometimes you need that extra move to wallbreak Choke points.
In competitive Advance Wars you don't really have the base count to spam recons. You need to build infantry & tanks, and if you have leftover funds you want to get battle copters. There might be some maps where recons can perform well like Verdum of Valhalla, but on most maps, recons are only useful in fog as scouts and harassers. I don't see massing recons with Nell as a viable strategy.
@@Mangs1337 true and the strategy only work on road, what about the map without road or beach, is too specific
hmm that depend on map, and what opponent have
You can't spam enough Recons with Nell for this to matter, the only thing they can fight when her powers aren't active are footsolders. You're not winning any territory with that.
@@Mangs1337 I'd agree. Yes, Nell Recons are basically high movement Nell Infantry... but they need more luck power than tanks to do equivalent damage, and they don't have nearly the same functionality as Infantry or Tanks outside of her CO Powers.
It's hyper focusing on simply the ambush value of the Powered Recons, rather than noting that base damage is still important, and that there are turns outside of her CO Powers.
Wait this isn't falseswipegaming
Someone has been watching False Swipe Gaming
I'm a big fan of chaos. So i'd say, just let her loose in ranked in tier 2! And let's watch the world burn
I thought this would be a false swipe reference for a second, is still a good analysis, to bad I haven't get the reboot campaign yet.
I imagine that Nell would be a MONSTER in a hypothetical Advance Wars X Fire Emblem. Stacking AW luck mechanics onto FE hero units would result in devastating power, especially if Provoke is a skill. (Preventing any enemy in range from attacking any unit other than the hero who possesses it? All those tanks poised to smash your anti-air instead suicide on Haar.)
Even if you converted her bonuses into standard crit rates that would STILL be ridiculous
Seriously, passive +5-10 Crit on all units is already nice, and her powers would probably grant something obscene like +25 and +50 respectively
Toss in other crit bonuses from classes and weapons and you've got an utterly monstrous set of units that one shot basically everything they come across, guaranteed
Variable damage is always difficult to work with, as you indeed cannot be certain of where you're going to land. However, she does become more dangerous when her units themselves have a higher base damage, because she becomes that much more likely to instantly destroy enemy units.
Where her weaker units can land lucky hits to severely cripple enemies, her powerful units are very likely to take out anything in one go. This is what I feel makes Nell a dangerous opponent. Nell isn't good at defending nor is she particularly good at damaging things, but she's terrifying at killing things. Keep in mind that infantry can very easily kill units on 3 HP during her normal power, and even units on 5 HP during her super power.
However, setting something like this up in a competitive match is really difficult, as you're most likely fighting full-health units. Then again, Nell herself wouldn't be leading with Infantry in engagements either. Softening up a tank with a tank of your own, and then killing it using a nearby Infantry, would be one of the more common ways things would go.
Still, the fact she's not reliable is what I think is also her biggest drawback and, thus, prevents her from really being useful in high tiers.
Oh boy i am hyped for the video, nice one!
In my personal experience, I'm generally unlucky whenever I try Nell (and Flak/Jugger) so my views may be skewed; I'm on the camp that she's not tier 1 purely because of the unreliability of luck damage.
As a side note, if I face against luck COs, I try to avoid using expensive units to reduce the impact of good luck engagements (Neo Tanks for example, I would never purchase against Nell). However, I'm not sure if that's something you can get away with in the highest level of play.
The "Hidden" cost of running a lot of infantry in against Neotanks is "Factory Time". If you've got a bunch of factories and no money, infantry are cheap. If you have 20 cities and 2 factories, infantries become a lot more expensive because each infantry ISN'T another tank/artillery/AA.
False Swipe Manging
I think you finally got me into advance wars
I came to your channel to learn about the remake that still hasn't come out, but I'm loving it here! Your voice is just pleasant to listen to and your videos are very high quality! I appreciate the amount of time that goes into each one of your videos and I'm playing through dual strike and days of ruin for the first time right now =)
Fun video! Overall, I completely agree with the tier placement. The only thing I consider heavily is how one thinks when playing against Nell as well. As you said, copters and artillery due to the way they interact with that luck, and become pretty bread and butter units for the way she'll play offence and defense. But that also adds an element of predictability to the match up. It means the opposing player can expect certain things to happen, but Nell has the initiative in regard to mixing things up.
Do you keep your bets conservative and keep your bets safe? Or go play it more risky with an all in play that basically secures the win or gets you out of a tight spot?
Luck is definitely a skill. And while skill is definitely required to use any of the COs. I wouldn't say she needs more skill per se, but a deeper familiarity with the sort of gambits one needs to chance on push her toward as high as a 1.5 tier or a 2.5. She's capable of making plays you'd never make with a rational mind as the T2 COs. But a good player has the potential to tip the scales. At the same time, going crazy with the risks will probably land you in more trouble more often than not.
But I think that's the fun of it. You can play it safe all you want. But eventually you're just gonna throw your infantry at a Neo-tank and let lady luck decide.
The problem with Nell is that the first thing that comes to mind is trowing away Infantry
That is somewhat viable, but that doesnt means that you should allways go for it
I think that the big deal of Nell is her mirror match-ups, wich can outshine a lot of COs abilities
Nell can pack a punch with her tanks, even on 9-8 HP, her indirects are a lot more scarier, and her b-copters have a bigger chance of not taking 2 HP of damage on counter attacks, and also the fact that RNG is on her favor, meaning that she can easily kill submarines and T-Copters
She's definetly not strong, but that doesnt means that she's useless or bad, we just have this kind of image of her simply because nobody likes going up against her on a ranked game
Considering Advance Wars is mainly about map control and money, being able to send banzai charges of Infantry towards tanks in honor of War Mommy Nell becomes the meta strategy when the repair costs of a tank can sometimes cost more than multiple Infantry units.
Nell would be too OP for Tier 1.
@@MK_ULTRA420 then you probably dint read my comment, nor saw the video =w=
Nell is the weakest T0/T1 COs, simply because or they have Defense Bonus ( Sturm, Kanbei and Javier) or they dont care about money (Sasha, Colin and Hachi)
And then again, trowing away infantry banzai-wise is just ask to lose on AWBW, its all about capture game, and Infantry is the only unit who can capture
@@thebrazillianguytm2186 Yikes dude, maybe one day you'll find out about tank repair costs.
@@MK_ULTRA420
tanks repairs cost 700 funds per HP
you're welcome
@@thebrazillianguytm2186 Per HP; doing 2 HP of damage on a tank costs 1400 to repair. Worst case scenario, you lose 1000 funds to cost them 700. Nell also doesn't have bad luck rolls like Flak and Jugger.
Nell's best strategy is to spam Infantry whenever possible, at least to deny tiles to the enemy. Don't risk wasting them until her CO Power is activated.
forgot to give her waifu points
I hope this series of videos are uploaded regularly. I am particularly interested in watching those about Colin, Grit and Kanbei.
9:00 I know it's to give the most proposed value trade off, but does infantry have to always be the thing you consider plowing into tanks?
Won't other vehicles like your own tanks, AA, arty, and recons be way easier, cheaper, and safer to fight with instead?
I'd love to see a chart of every unit's average match-up outcomes with Nell's powers active. Sadly my web browser hates opening any AWBW match I start.
Nell is tough to place. that luck is just all over the place. The lack of predictability is probably her biggest weakness, i can see why the tier list makers rather not bother with her. somewhere between tier 1 and 2 seems okay
I'm surprised you didn't mention how on property-heavy or mountain-heavy maps lash hard counters nell, she will have the firepower to reduce nell's units to low hp on her turn and basically negate luck and the defence to negate her luck on nell's turn, especially when prime tactics procs. I never played advance wars, like, ever. But I think what I'm saying is right, if only slightly.
Lash does not hard-counter Nell. She doubles her defense once in a long while, but gets no extra defense outside of her superpower. That's not enough to negate Nell's luck damage. You just play defensively when Prime Tactics is popped.
@@Mangs1337 I see, I overestimated lash and probably underestimated nell.
Edit:thanks for clearing it up to me.
As with Hero in Smash.
Competitive hates fun. And so, goodbye luck.
I agree with you that Nell is probably about T2 as is used today. However, because she's been banned so often and overall, players don't get much experience using her, I think her real potential could be T1 or even T0 at some point in the future. I suspect it'll be something like chess where the pieces and rules are the same for thousands of years, but the strategy is so insanely more optimized that a kid today could slaughter the best players in the past. My reasoning is I think she requires a completely different playstyle and way of thinking than what people are used to today. As soon as she is about to get her super or regular powers, the objective value of her units start to get muddy and that's not something that other COs get to experience. This affects how you can/should position your units and how you should value them leading up to using her powers. Today, everyone pads their most valuable units with infantry to reduce value loss during engagement. As a thought experiment example, I could see a world where smart people have figured out that with Nell, it really doesn't matter and it's better to put valuable units in the front to bait unfavorable engagement and retaliate with infantry in the back to counter. (Not saying this actually works today, but saying it's one of many potential different ways of thinking that we haven't gotten much experience messing with because she's so frequently underused).
Great video! I think Nell gets a small edge in maps where you are fighting with a lot of cheap units, giving her more chances to roll well. Higher end units like bombers can be scary with the sudden 1-shot, but you don't gain as much from instantly finishing off a 2HP unit as you do from turning mirrors into higher advantage engagements.
I think a fun successor video to this would be something like "How broken is Tier 0 ACTUALLY?", highlighting just how much better the Tier 0 is than someone like Andy or Adder. The math breakdown on how Kanbei/Colin offset their weaknesses and Sensei getting so many free units would make for great content.
Nell breaks the rule of unit types countering each other, while other commanders all follow this rule, which makes her very hard be fair for competitive play. I agree using her correctly is actually very, very skill based since a lot of her luck damage can be overkill. To get the maximum value out of an engagement essentially encourages an engagement that would normally lose for one turn.
In a competitive game, having an entity that breaks the rules not only feels unfair for the other player but also confuses the audiences. For example the AWBW tournament with Jugger. In this game people are simply cheering for good luck roll rather than tactics and plays.
I agree with this analysis 100%. The opponent can't do anything concretely to defend against luck. While she's wildly varied in effectiveness, it's never fun for that instance where she demolishes your army completely beyond your control.
I think the key point you mention is that she breaks the rules; luck itself isn't the problem as every CO has access to 10% extra luck, but this doesn't impact what unit is effective against another in a matchup.
This is an extremely good point. She just plays so differently if you want to fully utilize her. It changes the fundamentals of the game. No other CO does that so it makes it extremely hard to compare. It is more like comparing different races in starcraft at that point.
If Luck was actually a percentage on top of total damage, rather than simply "add X damage, mitigated by attacker HP and defender Defence", not only Nell, but luck ITSELF would have far less impact.
@@KopperNeoman Unfortunately this wouldn't work with the way AW is designed. The vast majority of unit matchups have a damage value that ends in a 5 in order to make taking off an extra point of HP a coin toss.
Nel is in casino tier.
I would put Nell on her own about on par with Andy in just base power (as her units are at base 100%), but the fact that she is a bit unpredictable in her damage output does make her a wildcard. With her CO power she can be a bit more reckless in an offensive, and as mentioned her indirects would just absolutely become LETHAL. And also as you mentioned her Battle Copters become big threats with her power active.
I think Nell might truly shine in Dual Strike, where you can pair her up with another CO to cover for her weakness against more defensive COs. With a Dual Strike active you could either soften up the enemy with Nell's luck and finish off with a more reliable CO, or start with a CO that has some weaknesses on units, then finish with Nell, who is more neutral on her units to shield them a bit on the opposing turn.
So overall I'd rate Nell in a Wildcard Category rather than try and lock her into any particular tier. Combination of player skill and favorable map conditions may turn the tide against jsut about anyone. Especially in a Fog of War match.
advance wars was one of my favourite games growing up. i would go out of my way to S tier every map. this is the first i heard of Advance Wars by Web. cant wait for the remake to come out.
Commentary vs starflash match where?
I think proper risk taking and odd predictions are very much skill (as seen by the fact poker tournaments are an actual thing) and something already done to some degree in FOW. So in that regard I think banning luck based COs is not fair, furthermore there’s such a thing called statistically impossible and while games can be decided by unusually high or low rolls from Nell, unless she gets so incredibly lucky that it’s like a one in a thousand game or something, it’s probably at least close AND the other side probably failed to take proper precautions, which is already true for FOW.
Can you do an AWBW stream where you play nell
Ullr is the 150th great grandmother of Nell
Brigid is the 100th great grandmother of Nell
Nell is...
the 25th great grandmother of Samus Aran
Hi Mango, you seem to have a typo in the title... The word is spelt ACKCHYUALLY. The more you know!
I am so flabbergasted at seeing a game I loved in 2001 / 2002 showing up in my TH-cam feed
Pokemon Smogon Tiers have unique BL Tier (Aka: Banlist) which exists in this limbo state between two proper Tiers. For example a UUBL means they are banned in UU (Underused) while still not seeing enough play to bump them up to OU, the tier above UU.
I believe Nell exists in basically a BLT2 or some kind of weird T1.5 as regardless if certain T2 units have favorable matchups against her on matches where they can easily play to their strengths, a few high rolls and Nell can even the playing field. Is it consistent? No but still a major danger that warrants a footnoot when ever matchups in T2 are discussed. Other T2 units can struggle against Nell on certain maps meanwhile Nell can struggle *sometimes* if she gets lucky.
At the same time Nell just gets rolled over by majority of the more powerful, more consistent T1's so we know for a fact she doesn't belong there. T2 is the closest to a proper tier you could place her but for accuracy I think she's very much in a limbo tier between 1 ~ 2.
rolls a d20 instead of a d10 for damage despite everyone else using d10's. no one just has the guts to tell her off lol.
Nell is pretty much the Hero in Smash Bros of Advance Wars.
too random. people don't know how to deal with that, and certainly won't bother to try.
You should make a video where hachi and Colin fight against Nell with PERFECT luck
I think another way to look at her powers is a precise version of Olaf/Hawke superpowers. It deals (average) 5 damage but only to units you attack instead of all units. That said, I don't think this has an effect on her placement.
Since you made a video on one of the most controversial cos, how about making another. Try rating Grit appropriately on the tier list.
Taking advantage of luck is a fun skill.
If I do this thing, there's about a 90% chance it will fail and I've wasted an action. But a 10% it succeeds and puts me at a huge advantage.
In competitive Pokemon, I would often opt to not take the most likely move to succeed, and instead take the move that would potentially have the largest impact. Playing like this actually worked out really well for me.
Great video!
Nice analysis
Speaking of retrospective, has your opinion on Neotanks shifted since the video?
I get why you want to keep a luck-based CO out of competitive play... but I find that Advanced Wars is large scale enough that it evens out well enough. Battles are not often going to be decided by a few lucky hits. And if Nell is about to pop her SCO, you really shouldn't be leaving your defense in such a state that an above average Nell SCO will end your game.
Still, it can suck to lose a game just because your opponent got lucky time after time, and Nell is much better at luck swinging her game than anyone else is (even if you count non-mechanical luck). Personally, I think she'd be fine in Tier 1. Not because she IS Tier 1, but because she'd fit in Tier 1 on her best day, and it's really her best day that you should be worried about. If she loses against other T1 COs on average, and only wins when she's consistently above average, then even simply picking her at the start of a match is a risky move that'll likely be punished in MMR, or in 2 out of 3 match sets. But still, she'd be available, even if rarely picked, which is more interesting than the alternative.
The best way to compare Nell's gameplay I find is that
You're basically playing a TCG (trading card game)
Like
There's great potential and power, but, ultimately you're still cradled in lady lucks arms
But, you still need a great amount of skill despite the luck factor, because you have to establish a fighting force and arrange your battles that make it that you can really tighten the range of just how much the luck will affect you, and also, most importantly
Contingency in the event you whiff constantly
One missed point is player skill. She can take matches easier against those not well versed on their COs pros/cons without needing to know her that well.
Very interesting thoughts, thanks for your analysis
Well, even if the average damage is close to Max. You have to think of those situation when max cannot wall break at all while Nell has a chance to wall break with a 1HKO. And if the wall if big enough you have more tries/attemps to break it so even if you have bad rolls sometimes, you still do your regular damages, it's all just bonus. I think the ability to wall break, even if based on luck, is a great asset.
Cost efficient engagement are cool but are often a bit of a coin flip and can let you in a really bad position. It depends on wether you want to go high risk/high reward or you play it safe and just take engagement that you would take even without CO/SCOP and bonus damage just gets you that wall break.
I agree with your thoughts here on the video, either being a T2 CO very on par with Max. I can also see a An argument for her being a low T1 CO, only bc of the economic tradeoff a 1000g infantry can do to 16,000-22000g units.
A player with card counting/number crunching experience will make me believe, Nell is like Tsunade from Naruto who LOVES gambling but is terrifyingly smart about it.
What I got from this is Nell is an infantry commander with extra steps.
This video is part of a 7 year old scheme of mangs to convince the awbw creators to let him play Nell in tier 1.
I thought False swipe gaming made a spin off advance wars series for a second there. UNFORTUNATELY, I assume it's a coincidence
Hey Mangs. Can you recommend a good jump in point for the series? This content is making me curious and I want to try it out.
Start with Advance Wars 1 :)
Nell will be more dangerous if the secret of RNG manipulation in Advance War series unlocked.
Never played the game, never seen the game before, was still a fun and interesting video
Great Video! Though I'd say Nell has slightly good matchups against T2 CO's instead of slightly bad ones. The Exploitation of Nell's Luck based powers probably shouldn't be allowed to flourish so much as be a niche/fun/daring pick so I'd put her in T1. I'd imagine she wouldn't be picked much in that tier, but I'd say on a competitive level she would dominate T2 too much. The Meta-game with Nell in T2 would start centering around picking Nell and picking a god to pray to. It's a similar reason as to why Flak was banned, though likely more severe.
I just want the luck COs unbanned so we get to see how good they are.
For me, I just play Nell like the average 0/0 CO until her power pops. Any additional damage is just bonus unless I need them
having a luck stat is always underestimated which is why people fear it because it's unpredictable. Now you get to choose to be unpredictable? Yeah, that's a super power lol
It seems the proper way to use Nell is to win safe engagements.
Helicopter vs Any Tank except AA
Helicopter vs Any Navel Unit
Cruiser vs Battleship
Tank vs Any Navel Unit
Infantry vs Transport Copter/APC
Recon vs Transports/APC
Artillery vs Medium/Neo Tank
as someone that "cant be bothered" thank you very much for the summary. great vid
Extra Luck can deal more, equal, or less damage than a Firepower Increase depending on the Base Value of the attacker. If you look at a "Damage Table", a 10 % Extra Luck will deal the same damage as a 10 % Firepower Increase whenever the Base Value is set to 50. If this value exceeds 50, then the 10 % Firepower Increase is better. If the value is lower than 50, then 10% Extra Luck is better.
For example, a Rocket has a Base Value of 50 against a Neotank. This means that Nell's D2D of 10 % Extra Luck is the same as any CO with a +10 % Firepower. Her Power is equivalent to Max's Super (vehicles), Grimm's Power, Sami's Power (infantry), & Sensei's D2D (B-Copters). Her Super is 10 % greater than Grimm's Super, Kindle's Power (urban terrain), & Lash's Super (on 4-star terrain). Only Kindle's Super (urban terrain) & Collin's Super (funds) have a better Firepower.
Similarly, Flak's & Jugger's D2D is the equivalent of having a +6 % Firepower while Sonja has a -4.5 %! Moreover, Flak's & Jugger's Power is the equivalent of having a +21 % Firepower while Rachel has a +30 %! Lastly, Flak's & Jugger's Super is equivalent to having a +41 % Firepower. I think Flak & Jugger are similar to Jake (without using indirect units or extra movement) on Plains & Jess (without the extra movement).
If we look at mirror matchups, there are only 2 scenarios in which the Base Value is less than 50, Recons & Anti-Airs. In these matchups, you would prefer Extra Luck over Extra Firepower. In every other mirror matchup, you will prefer Extra Firepower over Extra Luck. If you can anticipate which engagements you are more likely to take and units you are more likely to use or encounter, then you can decide which type of CO is better, a Luck CO or a Firepower CO.
Move to tier 1 and see what happens. At least she has no negative luck.
She will still always be my favorite by far just because I will forever place my life in the hands of Lady Luck (and be rewarded).
Its not about how much more damage her luck does against units of the same class its her ability to send low hp infantry units to do bonkers damage in an infantry spam meta that makes her bonkers she is definitely a lot stronger than what is suggested in this video.
As the video mentions, defensive terrain and defensive D2D stats take a lot of the bite out of her powers. She's still good, but she has no place in Tier 0 and she'd have a tough time in Tier 1.
is there a way to change the color of the troops? i wish andy have black troops like black hole army.....I hope someone can answer me....
I find it quite telling that, in a lot of online debates, the people who claim to be exceptionally skilled, capable, tactical, etc, have all that fly out the window the moment odds go from 100 to 90. I feel like that may be something that needs accounting for here. You're comparing her as a CO in either static environments or against master players who are at the top of the game which may not be the case when dealing with less skilled players. I.E. players who have 'unbeatable strategies' that are little more than pale imitations of high-tier players. There her skills may, very well, be tier 0 since the players don't know how to deal with things being suddenly changed on them in such a manner and a player who knows how to capitalize on that opening provided by that luck can easily thwart players/CO's that are punching above her normaly.
IMO she should be tier 1-2 or 1-3, not as "in some tier between 1, 2 and 3" but as "tier 1-2 (or 1-3)", because if luck is on your side she can deal enough damage to be tier 1 (as unlikely as that is) but if you roll low all game I think could even be tier 3 in a bad game. Either way 2 sounds good since that's how strong she is on average, when played well.
I threw my arms up in delight when I saw this video, Mr. Mangs.
The title of this made me wonder if it was a collab with False Swipe Gaming lol
I don't play competitive, but I remember playing as Nell in Dual Strike (it's the only Advance Wars game I owned, sue me) and yeah - I thought she was good, at first.
I was reckless with my troops, thinking the good rolls made me unstoppable, until they didn't.
I didn't know the value of infantry back then, and that was my downfall.
She was the CO I would play for fun, not for serious battles.
I think nell is a special pick similar to sami where she's easy to counter pick. I'd put her at low tier 2 but tier 3 if they can counter pick.
The fact that folks use a "move planner" on a non-competitive game for fun and gimmicks... Blows my mind. I understand people love this game competitively, and I'll not take that away from anyone. But it still blows my mind.
In short, Nell is kinda weird to position, BUT is definitely an above average CO. She has a roughly 10% damage bonus but also is very reliant on numeric advantage to win. You can't really plan with her, only react, but she's also the most likely to make a comeback on battle. Luck is in this case mostly a tool, she doesn't need it to win but is worth if there's not another alternative.
Oh, btw, is there any more news on that lucky lady who managed to get the Advance Wars remake early?
12:39 Where's that AWBW game?
Treat her powers like a banzai charge for infantry lol they could work or they could wipe out your infantry. Shes the quintessential infantry CO