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Why Is Lash So Overrated?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ม.ค. 2023
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Why Is Lash So Overrated?
#switch #advancewars #nintendo
![[Official Music Video] ฝังใจ - BOW Maylada [Prod. By Tan LIPTA]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rSjk1jKWRN4/mqdefault.jpg)
The real question is, can you fix her?
Andy can fix her
There is nothing that duct tape, flex tape, nails, a screwdriver, a wrench and a rusty shovel can't fix!
something like 1 less normal star so super power becomes 6 stars and power 3.
Or give her super power a +1 movement
I'd lower the costs of her powers from 4/7 to 3/6 and snow won't affect her Powers anymore. If that's too weak, I'd give her Air units half the Firepower boosts (So +5 plains, +10 on forests, +15 on cities, +20 on mountains), not the defense though. The Firepower Increses of her SCOP would also effect Air units
Do you need to fix perfection?
The biggest problem I always encounter while playing Lash is that you want to use CO powers offensively, but prime tactics doesn't really work for that. Your opponent probably isn't going to park all their units right next to forests and properties and leave those tiles unoccupied, they'll stand on them and take the terrain stars for themselves, then you have to attack them from the adjacent roads or plains. It works great defensively, which makes it feel oppressive in campaign since you're trying to get your speed stars and don't want to take a turn off, but you very rarely want to use your own super power just to make your opponent hang back for a turn and then kill you.
Yeah this is a solid point. It's very easy to play around her CO powers by denying her terrain.
6:38 Or in other words, a terrain star doesn't give you +10% extra defence, it gives you +HP% extra defence.
that's a good point. never thought of it that way before
It gives you 1% of defense per hp per star
You know, considering she invented basically everything black hole uses it's kinda strange she doesn't utilize any of those inventions directly. Imagine if her CO power let her strike a single enemy unit with an off-map black cannon strike in addition to it normal effects. Maybe her Super CO power would let her aim a laser beam instead of doubling terrain stars?
I think this is a huge missed opportunity for her. Her powers should absolutely have revolved around technological gadgets. Honestly, she should have gotten Rachel's superpower and be able to fire missiles at the enemy. Or maybe summon 3 random beams of laser that strikes parts of the map. She should have been able to "modify" her units temporarily with her super, allowing them to break the rules a little.
@@Mangs1337 Flak also should have leaned more into the drug kingpin role the devs surely planned for him. His tanks should get extra movement through forests when on panzerschocolade and infantry firepower should not be affected by how much hp they have when barbaric blow is on. Also spawning naval units in lakes should totally be a thing.
I think the idea that the knows her technology so well, that she can do things that are seen as impossible/very odd, like straight ignoring terrain, and making them super buffed
The condition of having to be on a certain terrain reinforces her trait of "being so smart to see something others aren't", that's why her power isn't as direct as other COs, like Sonja's
I get it what you mean, but I still think it fits her IMO
it never did make sense that she invented all of black hole's insane inventions but her D2D and powers have nothing to do with them.
@@gombe793 like the advance wars story flak.
Day to day: -20% firepower: 30 luck
Normal power: naval units can move across land for 2 movement points
Super power: Direct units have +1 range.
Another weakness is that air units don't benefit at all from her strong points and most maps tend to have at least one airport. Other T3 do not have especially strong air units but they scale as well as land units during powers while Lash ones don't.
As for naval units, well they're memed for good reasons and if you play on a map where you 're forced to build those, reefs are rare enough and Drake is better overall.
Lash could really use either a better normal power or it being cheaper.
Personally I pick CO's not based on skills/CO power but out of preference. Sure on maps with mostly plain terrain Lash is not the best choice, but what from campaign mode has taught me is how to work with what you got and enjoy playing with your favorite CO.
Thanks for the dono
for fun play, you play whatever. but for competitve in any game, you are forced to look for stat if you want to win. in cartridge game, lash isnt that bad because there are more heavy terrain compared to competitive awbw.
Honestly the main reason why I am hyped for Reboot Camp is because I think Lash will actually be good in her tier in that format. No coom towers means slower and more defensive playstyles being stronger, and no Kindle that can scare Lash off her cities sound like Lash could actually find a good place there.
I think comm towers are just awful and the more AWBW I play the worse my opinion of them becomes. Overpowered artillery pieces. The ability to knock tanks off a city without a luck roll. The fact that Eagle isn't unique in having the only transport coptor that won't die to a battle coptor by dice roll while everyone else has to roll the dice. Andy's repair being so bad because units die so much. Nell losing power because her power in AWBW is much more often to be overkill than in AW2. Collin in AWBW can wallbreak without indirects of his own while he struggles to do so in AW2. The 55% damage in a mirror matchup on roads is perfect balance and AWDS ruined it. And one of the worst interactions I complain about is AA wiping Mechs when they have some terrain stars as opposed to leaving them crippled.
Huh, I thought the new CO artstyle would lead to a lot more coom towers.
@@alex_zetsu I do think that coom towers are nice in that they make games less stally and defensive.
But at the same time I think you are right with all the characters who get screwed by them. Aside from maybe Eagle. I don't think I've ever seen a battle copter attack a transport in 250 games lul
coom towers.
my god...
@@tom-ate Eagle, the stalliest of all COs, gets screwed by com towers regardless of whether they affect the air battle specifically.
An interesting idea to buff her powers is to make them override the defense scaling for their duration: basically, it doesn't matter if a unit is at full HP, or at 10%, the damage you're gonna do is the same.
I had no idea that terrain stars scaled with health :O A great informational video about Lash, and why to not often pick her. Thanks!
The game does a very poor job teaching this. Not sure if its even directly mentioned. Makes sense though. Fewer troops you have the weaker your defenses would be.
I never knew about that hidden mechanic of damaged units getting less defense on properties. This was a really interesting video Mangs.
Hello Mangs and Thanks for the video. As a map maker i try that's everything is okay. That's why on my map "The legend is born" (the 10 map of the egg cup season 2) there an area with heavy terrain and the center is open with shoals mainly. So Lash and kiddle can perform very well on T3 on the hq side, while the other co like Rachel and drake will be far better on the center creating 2 type of gameplay on the same map on the same tiers.
So for me lash to be really balanced should have power cost inverted (3 stars PO, and 4 the SCOP) so it would be way more easly to spam power for situational effect
What if both of her powers would always grant her units the full 10% defence per terrain star while they are active? Like a 2 health unit on a city would still get 30/60% defence instead of the 6/12% it would normally get
I remember having a custom CO idea that was the opposite of that. Units not only don’t lose firepower with damage during superpower, but actually GAIN +10% firepower per health point lost.
You forgot to mention an important factor for her overrated status : the psychological factor.
1 - Lash is a goth girl. Goth girls always get extra points.
2 - Using her ability right feels extremely satisfying, rewarding
3 - Her theme is a banger
Valid and solid points.
I used to play Lash quite a fair bit before settling with the other T3 COs and not really touching Lash afterwards.
Some thoughts:
1. Lash is a CO that I see as needing much better skill and map understanding than your opponent to use correctly and win games with. You notice you can snag some wins with her on certain maps as a favourite, but you will need to plan really far in advance. Now, against newer or beginner level players (700-850), I find that the unit positioning done whether forced or not often sets up Lash to take advantage of her D2D. Against more experienced players, you either don't get that at all, or you have to think of a risky forcing strategy 2-3 turns in advance for it to work, and her power toolkit does not make this easier to execute.
2. Even with her power boosts, it''s important to link it to tactical and strategic ideas that win games. The reason why Deejus squees over 20% firepower and 2HKOs on cities is because it is a very common scenario you will face in game, whether to capture the property or just use its terrain benefits with a followup unit. You can get it with Lash with forests or plains + 1 comm tower, but that means you need to look at the contested properties and see if it is even possible to fight over it. Chances are, you won't always get it, and your opponent will know that if they are skilled enough. (1k rated upwards from my experience) Any firepower boosts that do not meet either objective is seen as laughable, as you pointed out.
For Lash therefore to take an aggressive advantage (she has to vs any CO in T3, for different reasons), they either need to property rush or have a 3 unit vs 1 ratio to dislodge the city unit. Sure, she may have it easier at times, but when this is your central gimmick (Andy's Unit Preservation, Drake's stall, Rachel is a mix of stall and unit preservation, Kindle's city aggro and city strats) from the start, it can often put you in a tight spot.
That's assuming you are playing on most GL maps.
3.For strategic elements, I found that Lash's package is not as forcing compared to the rest. To bridge the gap:
a. Andy may not have a D2D, but the threat of his powers is enough to force you into killing wounded units or taking unfavourable trades on select turns. (over the course of a full turn).
b. Kindle's CO Power offer good tactical benefits, but even vs a strong player, the 3HP of damage on properties can either disrupt a funding approach enough into sub-optimal moves (like sacrificing unit count for the ideal deployment) or delay income increase or disruption. With how some maps have inconvenient or highly contested properties (Vadum of Valhalla, Celeste, Golden Probe Redux), this creates more issues than what it appears. Furthermore, newly deployed units won't be going into combat fresh at 10 HP. You can still do most things with it, but for critical game winning ideas, this is subtly harmful.
And her firepower on cities basically makes it unfavourable to fight when she is on it on equal terms, It forces more expensive units to attack the city infantry, which you can then wipe with your tanks. That property can wait anyways.
c. Drake enjoys the Global Damage association, which already does what Kindle's does and creates other niggling problems, especially at Typhoon. Reduced ground vehicle movement can mean certain units become free for one turn, which is very impactful. Reduced B Copter power can hurt, but if you use your B Copters defensively, this creates problems for your opponent.
d. Rachel... If you are forced to ball units to divert a covering fire, you may be forced to give up tempo, not to mention those that do get hit could be picked off if they are near to you. Her 3 HP repairs also allow for more aggressive posturing, so long as she is sane with unit quality.
Lash? You need to hope the map is nice to you and your opponent either does not know what they are doing, or forced into your 4D plan.
4. Lastly, her air units receive no benefits. Only Drake has it worse, the rest of them can use it far better, which means your air units are operating at a disadvantage. It is terrible when you want to create a compelling unit mix to tackle your opponent.
Personally, I feel like you should also do one on grimm, given that he also looks alluring on paper, but as soon as you actually play him, you find out just how bad the defence reduction is.
Sidenote: My personal suggestion to fix grimm is to make his units not lose firepower when injured.
Reduce the firepower increase if that's too strong.
Alternatively, Grimm could be given a scaling attack buff the lower his units' HP is, starting at 130% at full HP, and increasing by, say, 5% for every HP under 10 his unit is, reaching 175% at 1 HP.
@@ShadowWolfTJC that is...
Great!
Imagine 1 mech wiping out 5 tanks with a single rpg
@@SamMidence heroism shows itself in the direst of circumstances.
Mangs already covered Grimm in his Dual Strike tier list. And unlike Lash, it's a pretty open-and-shut case: The extra attack he has is simply not worth the defense he loses. Especially since his units taking damage faster means that their extra attack will soon be meaningless.
Goth gf so 10/10 tbh
Real
But she not big tiddy 0/10
Really great breakdown of the Lash situation, as it were. It really highlights why she tends to not be able to pull it out in the late game. My experience with her in AWBW definitely leans to her being very strong at the onset of the match and favoring aggressive playstyles, but she falls off hard starting in the mid game. If they want to make her more competitive in T3 they should consider making her power and super both one star cheaper so they at least come in a little more frequently.
One point in Lash's favor that I think you may have overlooked is how important an early advantage is to snowballing a substantially larger lead. Even something as small as being able to contest capturing infantry with, say, a 20% boost from an adjacent forest tile and coming out ahead can lead to a stronger capture game, which leads to more funds, higher quality units, better engagements, etc. It's why Von Bolt, a character with an absolutely horrendous SCoP and literally no CoP still gets to be tier 1 - because his early game presence from his d2d power is just that impactful. Lash's d2d, while obviously worse, uses the same principle, and is why she's viable.
von bolt is T1 only because of his 10% defense, he would probably be top T4 or bottom T3 if you cut off his defense.
I think changing Lash like this will make her less disadvantageous in terrains with no defensive stars. Zero star terrain renders Lash's SCOP literally useless.
Keep the same 5% fire bonus for each terrain star BUT Lash adds 1 terrain star for day-to-day ability. This helps Lash will have basic terrains of 1 star, plains of 2 stars, forests of 3 stars, cities of 4 stars and HQ/mountains of 5 stars. (1-2-3-4-5)
Air units STILL get the terrain star effect, different from other COs.
As such, all units of Lash will have a day-to-day increment of at least 105/110 and a maximum of 125/150.
COP: Movement is 1 for all terrain. Plus 1 terrain star. (2-3-4-5-6)
(The unit of Lash in COP state will be: lowest 110/120 and maximum 130/160)
SCOP: Movement is 1 for all terrain. Plus 2 terrain stars. (3-4-5-6-7) The terrain star's defense effects are not affected by the unit's HP.
(The unit of Lash in SCOP state will be: lowest 115/130 and maximum 135/170)
SOP: become 5 stars
SCOP: become 9 stars
Lash legit was my favorite character in dual strike growing up
Lash is indeed in a very awkward position.
When you match her against Cos like the tier 4 she easily wins because none of them are good at weakening her units without direct confrontation, but sadly for her every CO in tier 3 can do it exept andy, and even in tier 2 there is olaf.
I'd even say Kindle being the top pick of tier 3 hurts lash even more, because Kindle is already very strong in general, but her Urban blight forcing you to avoid properties very often hurts Lash in particular even more.
I'd be curious to see if Lash overall win rate would improve if Kindle was bumped to tier 2 as it was discussed before.
I feel like lash vs andy is winnable, lash vs Rachel is delicate but winnable too and lash vs Drake is hard but winnable if you get enough of an early game advantage.
So she might become a good tier 3 in such a world.
My inexperienced take is, that it sounds like we're seeing this situation:
• As Ignis Bad said in the replies from Mags' pinned comment, devs and meta make much different looking maps, so her already temperamental design is much more temperamental.
• Movement cost benefits are close to worthless in nature. While it's definitely more out of the way in the naturalistic maps, woods and cities are necessarily more 'out of the way' tiles regardless. While indirects benefit from the power, you would in theory want to be blasting with them while they're getting the terrain buff in PT, not moving them.
• In general Lash suffers from a CO that has a strong intimidation game, but not so much in gameplay. When the shock factor wears off, you see the lackluster CO, but until then it's like *"You'd keep the person that moves through ANYTHING and blasts with terrain bonuses BUFFED?"*
• Terrain Tactics costs way too much for what it does, and prime tactics is sincerely impressive, but only to suffer that temperamental nature.
As at least an initial testing version, I would suggest this:
• Day-to-day should increase stars by 1 across the board, but the DtD bonus takes half the terrain benefit. Common fighting areas should be expected to be plains, sometimes forests, but also roads and bridges around choke points or major areas. These areas are really just not helpful to Lash. Also, air (and realistically) sea units just don't benefit. This helps Lash's general performance, makes her air and sea units start benefiting, but the counter-nerf keeps initially high star areas from going wildly out of hand.
• Terrain Tactics is a total joke as-is, and hearing 'reduced to 1' on movement costs blows the power out of proportion, so a merely reduced cost sounds more modest, giving devs and novices a more level head when looking at the power, without benefiting in most circumstances. Reduction BY 1 should fix the intimidation factor, hopefully. In terms of actually making this useful, making it basically a 'same but better' with her DtD seems like it would make it overall better than where it stood in the previous version, even considering the terrain movement nerf. (100% firepower instead of 50%, +2 terrain stars instead of +1) I sincerely think that your CO/SCO power should be when your indirects are fighting the ENEMY, not the PLAINS AND FORESTS, so I feel like how much indirects benefit from the freer movement doesn't deserve much consideration.
• Prime Tactics should have 100% star->firepower like original!Lash, but double the terrain stars she has. With DtD giving a star now, suddenly that benefit means something more substantial in many common circumstances. It should still get the -1 movement costs effect.
• Because of the flatly added add terrain stars, air and sea units now can benefit from her CO and super CO powers, making her airforce/seaforce not feel like it's uniquely lagging behind bad.
• Because she still strictly plays with the terrain mechanics (their def stars and movement), her thematic nature as a terrain-based fighter is retained while making her have a decent presence in gameplay.
• Snow shouldn't really slow her down, because it's just another form of difficult terrain, and her SCO is her being smart enough to work around difficulties of difficult terrain. Olaf shows that in-universe, snow making movement difficult can be overcome, so this doesn't seem out of possibility for Lash. This also makes her a more substantial threat to Olaf, compared to the current "lollol now u slo and less HP" relationship. (Also fits in well with the way she seems rather dismissive of Olaf and how painful she is to him) ...and finally, not being penalized in snow movements means that her movement bonus means something for more than indirects and the occasional forest.
• I'm aware that this doesn't deal with the central weakness of Lash, in that units are penalized harsher for being hurt, but that this is thanks to how terrain applies to gameplay, and that Lash is a terrain mastery character, I feel like it should be taken as part of how Lash is explicitly balanced as advantage/disadvantage attributes. Also, because 'maneuvering' is used, it gives a subtle (possibly too subtle) hint that her benefits are weaker with hurt units, since you don't typically move as well when you're hurt bad.
Her entry should look like this, then, accordingly:
Skilled at maneuvering in terrain. Terrain turns into some power, and always gains a star.
Terrain Tactics:
Reduces terrain movement by 1, and increases power and stars from terrain.
Prime Tactics:
Terrain stars are doubled, while reducing movement by 1 and giving firepower.
I don't really have a way to really check if that fits in the game properly, but I tried to make sure it'd fit with the wording.
What do you all think?
I think most people remeber her from AW2 where most the maps are designed to make her daily and super really effective. You had to plan around knowing her super was coming up. Her nerf in AW:DS and maps not being as suited for her shows. This carries over to By Web where few maps scream "Lash will thrive here." I am honestly okay with this and think she is in a fine ranking. She is just in that odd spot of too strong for one tier to weak for the other. Every compative game has this.
A few ways I can think of buffing her would be, as suggested by someone in the comment section, to reduce the price of her powers from 4/7 to 3/6.
Another is that her units are still treated as full hp units for that hidden calculation of defense from terrain stars.
Granted, this may be a pretty small buff, but hey, a buff is a buff.
Let's change 2 details about Lash to make her better:
First, reduce the cost of both her powers by 1 star, so now she has a 6 Star long meter cut in half for her powers
Second and most importantly, her D2D and COSP just cancel de scalling of Terrain Stars with the Unit's HP, meaning they always get the full benefit of them
Ah Lash, when I first played AW2's campaign, I thought she was a busted CO. Being exposed more to AWBW showed me her weaknesses really show in a competitive format. Very informative vid!
Lash is my favorite casual CO. When I'm just playing CPU to have fun i just play her. I like the character's background, her music is awesome especially in reboot camp and shes one of my favorites to play local with my wife against cpu.
I wish she was more viable competitive wise. Hopefully with reboot camp we'll see a new advance wars with some interesting changes.
I think Lash could be improved in two ways.
Either make her power cheaper, for 3/3 as her super power is super condition. Compared to mass damage/mass heal+boons and so fourth.
Alternatively, Lash being able to move through rivers or mountains, by employing crazy tactics or whatever, to fundamentally break the rules of movement for one turn. The advantage of this should be obvious; Lash can front switch in ways she wouldn’t usually be able to and initiate engagement like Hannabal coming through the mountains. I’m not sure whether this should replace part of her ability (doubling stars or terrain ignoring) but given most supers fundamentally breaks the games rules in some way (greater range, healing, mass damage etc), one way to improve Lash would be to give her something that no one else can replicate. Personally I feel mass damage already breaks the rules far harder then most abilities ought to.
Though of course if a unit gets trapped in the mountains or rivers? They are stuck there and are ignored until her next super power. Also totally a lash thing to do. XD
I'd agree for a lot of the standard mappool, as many maps are too big for Lash to be able to bully the other Tier 3s with her Day-to-Day. On smaller or mixed base maps, however, her extra firepower becomes a lot more relevant, especially if it's a single comm-tower map, as getting to 20% firepower d2d on most terrain allows her to wallbreak into cities very easily. A very good example actually is the map for round 1 of Amarriner cup, Harsher Truths. It basically gives her everything she wants to succeed. (Mixed base, lots of forests [especially next to cities], single Comm tower).
The other thing is her Superpower basically turns plains into Cities, so its like attacking into Kanbei units. The numbers don't need to be that high to still be devastatingly powerful, even if its just for one turn.
I wonder why they made this “defense scales with health” mechanic. Is it just for players to rally through enemy defence lines quicker?
I think it make the game more interesting that way. The fresh, 1st HP is more durable and strong than the last HP. Making global damage and first strike more important, choosing which units to attack more thoughtful, and make merging a rational option.
Conclusion: More fun!
ex: should my artillery attack 10HP Mdtank to 7HP or 5HP Mdtank to 0HP?
On a more serious note here’s my thoughts:
Terrain Tactics: all movement costs for terrain are 1 for all units. All units get +1 movement. Units get terrain defense boost as normal defensive boost instead of Star boost.
Prime Tactics: Movement costs are reduced to 1 for all units. +1 movement for all units. Terrain defensive boost is 20% per star and is normal defensive boost, not terrain stars. Firepower boost corresponds to 20% per terrain star. No movement penalties for weather.
I like Lash's character. Brilliant, free and fun
From my experience, enemy Lash always seems to be strong on campaign, so perhaps the map design and conditions leaned in favor for her. Plus getting S rank probably make her power more frustrating to deal with. I guessing that's where the view of her being strong comes from.
From all the pvp videos I've seen, I don't see as many terrains as there would be on campaign mode.
Campaign tends to have stuff like 'here is an entire massive forest' more than competitive maps, yeah.
reminds me of the time i had to defend Lash from getting nerfs in the comment section of Mangs's CO balance videos. As much as i like playing her. She has many weaknesses.
Even her day to day forces you to limit your unit placement. Something that Max etc don't have to deal with. If anything. Lash needs a straight up buff. And we don't even talk about DS Lash.
Two very simple fixes to bring Lash up to parity with other t3 COs would be to
1) adjust her day to day so that it affects air units like the dual strike COs
2) change her SCOP to be an attack and defense bonus based on terrain stars instead of just doubling them.
It still leaves her as being relatively weak overall and a heavily map dependant pick, but it boosts her from being a glorified t4 CO to being maybe comparable to drake or andy.
Man, Shiddy Mic Mangs takes me back 😂
I can't wait for Mangs to create a video about why Olaf is underrated. :D
I have never gotten into the new Advance Wars online, but I was huge into Days of Ruin back in the day. Having to use CO zone to charge powers negates so much bullshit of these games and I still don't know why it's so underutilized and under appreciated for what it did.
A bit off-topic, but Lash's power got me thinking: is there a CO (a fanmade one most likely) who has a power that makes them keep terrain stars even when moving off of a terrain? As in, a Tank that starts in a forest can move into plains/roads, but still keeps 2 terrain stars when attacking. It would essentially be an "ambush"-type power, independent of fog-of-war mechanics. Or I guess it would be like Lash's D2D, but it uses the terrain stars of a unit's starting position (at the start of the turn), as opposed to their position after moving. Though if you make it use the best of either position (use the highest stars between starting terrain and current terrain), it could work as a buffed Lash. I'm pretty blind when it comes to competitive AW though, so I don't know if this change would make Lash any more worthwhile to use.
Mangs, they may seem weird but I picked this video to comment because it is your most recent video. I thought about your balancing the fe games videos and I got an idea for fe 9, mostly how in your fe 7 video made some NPCs playable charecters I thought about making 4 boss characters as enemy recruitanle allies and them being Nedata, Shiaram, Kasatai, and Tomenami. In Nedatas odd backstory he had a 12 year old archer son who was killed by a rival bandit gang, and he wants to get close to someone simular to him which is why you recruit him with Rolf. His growth rates are going to be 80% HP, 60% strenght, 5% magic, 25% skill, 40% speed, 5% luck, 50% defense and 45% resistance. This would make him a tanky bandit and I'm going to reduce his level to 10 and his axe rank is going to be D. For Shihariam, he's going to be very difficult to recruit as it revolves around talking to him with Jill who is going to need an A support with Mist and deafeting him with Ike ( simular to how you recruit Shinon). His growth rates are going to be 50% HP, 50% strenght, 5% magic, 35% skill, 25% speed, 55% luck, 60% defense, and 50% resistance. He is going to have an A in lances and an A in axses. This makes him a flying tank but to slow to double most enimes, so he's meant more for baiting. Kasatai, is going to be recruited by Tauroneo, and he is going to be ass, with a 45% HP growth, 15% strenght growth, 55% magic growth, 45% skill growth, 60% speed growth, 80% luck growth, 5% defense growth, and 55% resistance growth. He at least good with the flame lance, and he's going to have a B in lances and a C in swords. Finally Tomenami is recruited by not getting killed in chapter 22. His bases are dogshit, but his growths are going to be insane, and his level is going to be 1. He is going to have a 90% HP growth, 25% strenght growth, 110% magic growth, 45% skill growth, 80% speed growth, 60% luck growth, 40% defense growth, and 50% resistance growth. He's going to be painfully mediocre but he will have a C in staves/light magic. (Because they are combined into the same rank). I hope you eaither reply or someone else does because I thought this would be cool. Also, if Kassati or Shiharim are above level 10, make them level 10.
Also a newbie trap - consider the difference between PvE and PvP. In PvE game modes, you're generally engaged in a long engaged battle across an asymmetrical map with constant fighting - there, the day-to-day power is incredibly important, since you won't only be fighting at critical moments (especially with the AI's willingness to yeet units into you without regard for their safety in AW2, while AW:DS's AI is somehow more aggressive but also more intelligent about being aggressive.) In a PvP game mode, the entire match is generally determined by one engagement in the center of the board - a single successful push is generally enough to give you the ijncome lead, and if you come away from a single fight at an unquestioned advantage, you've already won and the opponent is probably about to resign. That means that CO powers are much more important there because it all comes down to a single high-leverage moment. Just something I thought of that would cause new players to overvalue day-to-day (and we've established that Lash's day-to-day is the best in T3) and undervalue CO powers (and Lash's is pretty much the worst in T3, I don't think anyone disagrees on that?)
I had assumed that the attack bonus was static with the number of terrain stars, but scaling with the defense HP modifier makes her passive borderline worthless in most scenarios. Cheers for this!
Having used her a fair bit, she is a gamble on when she is useful. Easy to counter as you force her to attack on roads or plains. Her first power is almost never useful and her 2nd takes for ever to charge up. Now her super is really strong it's just not something you can spam. IF she is facing someone like grim he gets to use his +60 easily twice before she gets a chance to use her own.
If her first power gave flat movement speed then she would be top of tier 3 but no dice.
She works best as an arty, fog of war commander as her arty hits fairly hard because you can get them in cover first.
To balance Lash, make her SCOP add 4 terrain stars instead of doubling them and make her base power add 2 terrain stars. Makes her base power at least relevant at 4 stars cost and gives her SCOP more pushing power.
Essentially Lash is a CO that is frontloaded with powers that only slightly alter the tactical situation. It all comes down to the map balance, most maps have a lot of plains with a few forests and cities and a handful of carefully placed mountains. Her air units get no bonuses ever and her sea units only benefit from reefs. This makes her a landlocked CO with good terrain bonuses but her powers are too expensive for what they do.
I would make her Terrain tactics 1 star less and give her 4 terrain stars on all terrain during Prime Tactics. This would give her a decent power-up everywhere and let her use it a little more often, maybe one extra time per match. Would also let her position her units better during super by getting rid of her day to day bonus application problem for a turn. That would mean nixing the double terrain star effect but a +40% firepower and defense everywhere is easier to use effectively than 60% on cities and 40% on forests and reefs. If that is too strong for this tier then only raise the terrain stars for terrain that already has at least 1 star to keep her from abusing bridges, roads, and beaches (seas for naval units, otherwise her naval game would get a huge burst on super) so she can't Kanbei her way through chokes at such a low tier.
It always struck me as weird that Lash's super power is a defensive one, it doesn't fit her personality. I'd make her more offensive:
1) Terrain Tactics: xxxx Can move freely along any terrain, and during her power, when making engagements against Lash, the enemy doesn't have any terrain stars. Also the usual 10/10 that all CO powers get in AWBW.
2) Prime Tactics: xxxxXX Same as her CO power, except it also doubles the damage she does per terrain star (so 20% per star), instead of doubling her terrain stars.
I think this would make her better without making her broken. She'll be able to get a lot more OHKOs: during her COP, she can guarantee a OHKO on an infantry with a tank attacking from a city (and do it most of the time on a forest, 70% chance), and during her SCOP, she can guarantee a OHKO on an infantry from a forest (and do it most of the time from plains). It'll give her SCOP more bite, as the enemy loses a lot of defence; there will be no hunkering down on defensive terrain, and she can easily pick off tanks on cities which would otherwise be unfavourable engagements. I think she'll most likely only usually her CO power most of the time, however her SCOP is there if she needs that extra kick as it's not much more expensive.
Terrain tactics should cost 3 stars and add 1 terrain star to all her units while keeping her mobility bonus. So that she will get something even on roads.
Her SOP should just add 2 stars to all her units and should cost 6 stars, while negating movement penalties like terrain tactics does. So that she won't get a whopping 6 stars (5 instead) on properties and 8 stars (6 instead) on mountains, but will get enough firepower and mobility overall to make a good push during SOP.
This way she can definitely be on par with other tier 3 guys.
And yeah, air units should get these firepower bonuses too.
Kindle will no longer be able to cripple lash during SOP by keeping her away from her cities, she will get a good firepower bonus even from plains (3 starts instead of 2) and roads (2 stars instead of 0)
I think another problem is that new players skim through the co descriptions, see defence in her text and think her units are flat out tougher for no actual reason(at least thats what my baboon brain did)
As someone who mains Lash, you have to play defensively with her and force the enemy to play your game.
Take a good look at the map before a battle and plan out where you want the engagements to occur so that your units make the most use of her powers. Knowing when to pull back and when to expect certain units to appear (like B-Copters) is crucial. You cant just fire and forget her CO Power to save you if you screw up like most other CO's, her powers are deceptively built around defense, not offense, and are best used as a disruptive tool to stop huge pushes before they happen. And of course, keeping an eye on the enemy's CO Meter to plan your next move.
Lash is hard because the way to make her work is for the player to plan ahead and preserve her units. That's actually why I like her. Ironically she's at her best when she cares for each deployed unit on the map.
i don't think this is the case at all, Lash gains absolutely nothing from playing defensive (unlike Olaf, Eagle, and other COs who benefit from stalling)
on the contrary you should be playing aggresively with her D2D firepower bonus and try to secure a huge lead before enemy SCOP comes into play
because at that point the enemy SCOP will grind your troops down and Lash's lackluster SCOP will never let you catch up
sometimes i even use Lash COP to further secure that early lead, especially when i think my opponent will get his SCOP first before mine (which usually is what happens, 7 stars is incredibly expensive and Lash winning the early game means your opponent builds their power meter faster than Lash does)
@@Xaltt Yep, agreed! Lash should be the most aggressive around her tier. She needs secure income fast and early like Sami to gain advantage
May be overrated but her theme is an absolute banger
they way terrain stars actually work is that they pultiply the stars with the HP of the unit
i defended Lash against nerfs in your previous CO tier list for a reason.
Aside from hard counters in HP damage COs. Her expensive but weak powers , the fact her air units get no bonus and her day to day requires careful unit placement. all help drag her down.
girl just needs a buff
Lash is a CO that wants to have very few counterattacks so it keeps her units healthier on good terrain preferably. I think Lash players want to combine units more often than other COs to increase staying power rather than immediate satisfaction before her prime tactics. Her terrain tactics is a bluff COP surprises the opponent over rough terrain giving her Sturm movement with COP + D2D bonus attack power. I think she can be really strong with multiples of the same unit, but can be predictable before her power activation.
I feel, if it must be changed, maybe just make her CO power faster, but we already have two Black Hole CO with quick extra movement power... To differentiate, maybe move the terrain move penalty removal only for her super instead, because most COs have bonus movements on their supers anyway, and bring the defence boost for early, so she can use it with her normal CO power. This would make Lash player care more about the terrain, as intended, but of course, her powers costs would have to be rebalanced.
So, CO power, double defence stars, CO super power, double defence stars, ignore terrain movement cost would be my bet for rebalance
Crime Tactics!
I think it's obvious that defence increases are scaled by the unit's health. It doesn't look like a hidden mechanic to me.
You definitely forgot the strongest part about her! ... her theme is hands down the best in the game!
One thing about her that’s definitely not overrated is her music
It would've been better if Terrain Tactics cost only 2 stars and Prime Tactics 5 stars.
That would have made Lash pretty strong, maybe even better than Kindle. 2 stars is pretty bonkers. I think 3 stars/5 stars is good enough.
She's still one of my favourite COs 😢
Great video!
Lash and Adder could be completely broken as a dual strike if you could keep the first CO’s power. Adder with Prime Tactics on top of his +2 movement would make any push the FINAL push as nothing’s going to stop that.
As it stands I think they’re still really good because you can clear terrain with Prime Tactics THEN zip out on open terrain to further the advance.
It would be a nice buff if she ignored the "terrain stars scaling with unit hp" entirely, at least for her attack.
Here's the thing with lash many people miss.
A lack of weaknesses is not the same as the presence of strength. Yeah, she's not weak at anything but nor is she Strong at anything that matters. She's good at holding property and defense, but those things don't passively win ground or property and therefore don't win maps.
Yeah, thinking about it, Lash's Crime Tactics...I mean, Prime Tactics could be foiled if most of her units are below certain HP values, which is something that happens often.
The fact that Lash or no Lash any opponent will still try to take good terrain before you doesn't help.
Wow can't believe I didn't know it! Lash needs her units at full HP to be on cities or mountains to utilize Prime Tactics well. Most of the maps have more plains, woods, and roads compared to cities. I thought her defense gets boosted with her offense in a weaker version to Samurai Spirit, but I didn't know the game mechanics ruined her. When her units loses health, the defense decreases. Her normal power gets free movement from penalties from terrain, but not strong enough compared to other CO's like Andy and Rachel. Why the hell is Hawke higher tiered than Lash? His super CO power, Black Storm is 9 stars long plus his damage is not increased that much.
Regarding Hawke:
1. Most of the maps will have a securable comm tower, which gives him enough firepower to 2HKO units on cities, which is important in denying cities or using its terrain to attack other units. No exceptions. This part is what stands him out from most other COs who either don't have the D2D option or have it but it is very conditional (Jake as an example. Max as well since he gets the boost, but his artillery is undeployable. Literally a big issue on some maps and at the higher levels)
2. Even without comm towers, 5 stars at Black Wave is enough to secure that decisive advantage. 1 dmg to opponent and 1 healing to you nullifies the first strike advantage your opponent will get. (Tanks go from 8-6/7-5 to 7/7 or 6/6 and then you attack the tank, which means they yeeted that tank for nothing). More of a mid game concept, but it does force your opponent to have second thoughts regarding how aggressive they want to be then. Not to mention powers also give that 10% firepower boost on top of your D2D. So you can break through at key moments.
Also helps if you have a somewhat preserved army not at full health too (5HP or higher tends to work better. Anything lower and you need repairs still). Other global damage COs don't hold both benefits, not to mention the absent firepower boost.
I think letting Lash have a more techno-babble style power would be better. But, if that's too much to ask for, knocking her power down to 6 Stars would make her considerably more viable. The biggest issue is that she needs high HP units, good terrain, and for the enemy to actually be in range. To get all three is basically impossible, because I doubt the opponent won't keep tabs on her Power Meter. If they see she's close to a Prime Tactics, they'll calc the range, back off, and let her walk herself into death. If she's going to be in range regardless, but the terrain sucks, then her power loses a lot of its OOMPH. And, well... Both require her units to have good HP to full.
Again, she could really use a better set of powers... Or just knock her down to 6 Stars instead of 7.
At least she got a banger theme song; can’t take that from her.
maybe change it so that she ignores terrain star scaling and gets a minimum +20% fire power during her Prime tactics(while also reducing the cost to 6*s or reduce power usage fatigue a bit so she eventually catches up to being bullied earlier game?).
In her tier the other powers (baring Andy) also counter her super power by dealing damage that doesn't get reduced by defense, making it's effect worse once the actual combat starts.
Furthermore, while her infantry may get 8 terrain stars on mountains, the fact remains that the tile IS a mountain and can thus only be accessed by infantry and air units. Your main fighting force is going to be vehicles that can't move onto that tile to begin with. That means that, while such an infantry unit can be annoying, killing it is rarely going to be a priority as you'll want to kill off units on tiles that the rest of your army can move onto to further push into the enemy's position. Air units often also have the mobility to reach another good position to attack from so the mountain isn't necessarily a priority for them either.
Hmmm, awesome video regarding Lash!!
I had no clue about defense from terrain being less for a weaken unit
It's a shame because she's my favorite CO. I think just making her COP and SCOP each a little cheaper would balance her pretty well with the other t3 COs. Hopefully AWBW does this someday.
also note that competitve map in awbw tend to have less heavy terrain compared to the cartridge game so lash is indirectly weaker in awbw.
Imagine if lash had a SCOP like kindle COP. It would punish enemies who camp her terrain. Maybe a tsunami/kindle hybrid - global dmg to enemies equal to their terrain stars.
Fix her? Let her move through terrain without penalty (like Sturm). Lash really deserves that d2d ability as Terrain-Specialist.
I like how you barely talk about her normal power.
Which makes sense, because other CO's in the same tier all have better normal powers.
Yes terrain tactics can theoretically give you an good turn if you are a mastermind planner... but like... it just does not compare to the other normal powers.
I love Lash as a character, and i want to pick her whenever i play on a map where she is viable, but damn is it hard to go up against that mass of Kindles in T3
One of the issues with Lash is the competitive maps are mostly plains, roads, and cities with a major river or two to divide up the map. Often the maps have more cities than forests or mountains. With the abundance of cities and lack of other terrain in decent positions, why pick Lash over Kindle. Also Lash's powers are expensive for what they do.
If the maps tended to have a lot of forest and mountains, Lash would be a lot better. In the game her campaign maps are almost always made to favor her abilities.
If npthing else id reduce the CO power stars to 2 stars. Its basicLly a less consistent more situational sideslip. It can be great for say rockets moving over grass or esp forests. But a MD. Tank trying to go over an open field will see no benefit. Also bring her back to her AW2 day to day.
I'd have thrown in a tiny bit about her match ups against tier 4 and why she's more powerful than them after finishing why she's worse than other tier three.
But this matches my experience with her, first few turns I'm surprised by her damage and then get used to it and laugh when I'm popping powers
Honestly, I feel like Lash is not getting the love she deserves. her D2D is really there to push and hold until you get SCOP, then you get to start captures with 60% bonus defense + SCOP bonus (I think you get 10% in AW2 and DS), so during SCOP, interupting your caps required a huge amount of resources. However, her D2D is highly map dependent. You not only need hard terrain, you also need said terrain to be adjacent to tiles you need to attack, and competitive maps rarely gives you more than plains next to a city, so your are actually a very defensive CO, waiting for SCOP to push forward, but by the time you get your SCOP, you took 3 missiles, a typhon and you so loved cities and their +30% attacks just backstabbed you.
You may however, surprise your opponent with a COP but again, very situational, and that's why she falls into the bottom of T3, you need the stars to align to get full effectiveness of her kit while others just have a big red button with the letters "FUN" written on.
Prime Tactics is great for HQ captures! …and that’s about it lol
I have a counterpoint to make this entire video go SPLAT: *she's cute and valid*
No, seriously, she's a massive inspiration to me. ENFP villains best villains
There's a single problem in the video.
Perfectly explained the character, and the Tier 3 characters being better in general.
Why is she not Tier 4 isn't answered as precisely.
What if her super costed the same but the normal 3 stars? And in both scenarios your air units are also affected by terrain stars?
My second option would be to make her inmune to weather when she uses any of her powers.
Normal arguably needs to be 2* because there's not many maps with a long string of forests leading to tactical locations
Now I’ll be simple be built different and win with her.
Instead of a fix it'd rather be a complete rework because 'becoming sturm for a turn' and 'becoming somewhat better sturm for a turn' just aren't gonna cut it. No idea what it would be though but our only leads are her personality with low ethics and mad genius.
Still my favourite CO, would play even if she was worse than flakk
That said, to Buff her up, I'd lower the cost of Terrain Tactics to 2 or 3 Stars, and Prime Tactics to 5 or 6
maps in the campaign of the game are often rigged for Lash. Competitive maps are much more open with more roads and plains, and with properties, its often about getting to them first, and less trading on top of them. when you think about it that way, Lash basically has a 10% bonus to firepower most of the time and has an eh power
Loved this video. It's basically "why you are a noob" in 10 minutes. 😁
She's one of the best COs in the game, not in terms of power but in terms of enjoyable gameplay.
I think, if I were to 'fix' her I would do two things.
First, make her power meter 3/6 vs 4/7. Second I would give Terrain Tactics a +10% Defense Boost and Prime Tactics the same +1 Move on Infantry and Mechs.
I would really like to see a video like this on Kindle.
Personally, I wouldn't say she is overrated because I never see her being played.
An easy fix for awbw would be to separate her from kindle in the tier list (either moving her down or kindle up. maybe to a new tier?).
With kindle gone she would have a better use case for terrain/city heavy maps.
Her D2D is imo what makes her interesting so I wouldn’t touch that. However i would make her SCOP turn defense star into « true defense ». Sure that would means for one turn she can be almost immune to damage on city HQ and Mountain but I don’t think she would be suddenly OP pr broken
She’s actually the most versatile. Not the weakest, nor the strongest.
She's not really though. Versatility means you are a flexible CO that can work on many different maps. Lash NEEDS tons of forests and other heavy terrain to be viable, that's the opposite of versatile.
Lash didn't get nerfed in dual strike
she got way cuter, that's a plus for me
what? mechanics? day to day? powers?
Come on guys, you are supposed to play the COs you find the coolest or cutest
regards: a Rachel main
I think you've done CO tier ranks...but since the music is getting an overhaul, why not rank the CO music themes before the new game comes out?
Loving this new series
Fix Lash? Have day-to-day add one terrain star to all terrain for her units. This is not only makes sense thematically, this also makes roads/shoals better while scaling the Super Power
Offtopic, using Lash logic, why is Hawke Tier 1 instead of Tier 2? Lash has a better day-to-day than hawke and hawke's ability costs a metric ton while being on par with Drake's ability.
If we could just get Kindle the heck out of Tier 3, Lash would be able to shine. I've been looking through a bunch of maps in standard and fog and I can't find a single one where Kindle's win rate is below 50 percent and a few of them she is 60. If she is too weak for tier 2 then let Max and Olaf beat her up a few times. I am so tired of playing against Kindle.
I agree.