Why "Cocktail Piano" Is Lamer than Jazz Piano 😱
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2023
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Pianist, author, educator, and tiny dancer Jeremy Siskind describes why "cocktail piano" (if that is even a real style) is not really as compelling as real jazz piano, and how we can use the differences to learn about what constitutes good rubato ballad playing. He uses the Vernon Duke/Ira Gershwin tune "I Can't Get Started" (with you)" as an example. - เพลง
A lot of people called Hank Jones a cocktail pianist because of his smooth and relaxed touch. It’s not until you try to duplicate it that you realize how impossible much of it was.
Mmm, that totally makes sense. If you don't *really* listen, I can totally see that. Also, Hank was often wearing a tux and looking a bit like a cocktail pianist...
As someone who, on their best day, rose to the level of passable cocktail pianist, this is explaining the self-loathing I felt after gigs 😅 What a great video, Jeremy.
Hey Jeff! Great to see your name pop up here. I'm sure your passable cocktail pianist sounded pretty good....
Jeremy I would love to watch a tut where you take this song, break it down slowly and explain different approaches how to perform it in such elegant way like you. This was wonderful 😊
Critically important lesson about ballad playing, Jeremy! Never heard it so well articulated! Thank you again!
I'm so glad it was useful for you, Ken! Happy practicing!
This video couldn’t have been more perfectly timed…. I’m on a cruise this week with my family and discovering these differences up close!! I appreciate your textbook-like perspective of the matter! The cocktail pianists who are *really* interesting are the ones who fake having a full band by using backing tracks or the iReal pro tracks. The atmosphere feels cheap and cheesy, but I’d rather have it than the alternative of just reading the chart without proper arranging or even improvisation!!
Enjoy your cruise and try not to get distracted by mediocre piano playing lol.
Good stuff JS, and gave me a few good laughs too !! I've really enjoyed how you teach, and are also entertaining to watch at the same time. in fact I can't stop watching this it's so hilarious.
Lol, I'm glad you're enjoying it, Joe!
Nice one Jeremy, your deliberate demonstration of mistakes and bad practice is a great way to show us what we should be doing instead!
That's great feedback! Thank you, Richard!
Ever inspiring, my friend! Time to practice💃🕺💃
Aw, yay! Happy to hear that and looking forward to seeing you before too long!
Pour me a martini I'm not a pianist but I used to hear Teddy Wilson, Dave Mckenna Adam Mackowitz and many other greats playing in Hotels and cruise ship lounges...I don't think they were playing any less ..they were great! Art Tatum used to play in a supermarket! My friends used to use playing in Hotels to try new voicings and try new reharmonizations...since many times nobody appeared to be listening... The only drawback in playing in hotels is you might have to entertain requests for "feelings" (that dates me!) or some pop song...but why not use that to create a fresh new take on whatever trite melody is requested. By the way fantastic playing on Can't get started!
There's definitely nothing wrong with playing cocktail piano and lots of the greats did! It's amazing how you'll find great musicians playing in all kinds of settings.
Don't pour me a martini please - I'm Old Fashioned. Really appreciate how you distilled the difference here.
Well done, Patrick! Thanks much "I love the moonlight, and all those old fashioned things."
Thanks Jeremy. Im 61. Just started piano 3 years ago. Learned a lot from this...
Great! Good luck on your journey!!!
Good lesson. I'm working on adding all the cocktail piano runs now, figure that might get me an entry into your amazing OP version someday.
One step at a time! Thanks for watching, Dan! (assuming you're Dan?)
Jeremy, it would be great if you made a video about how to practice and use these arpeggiated run ups to « fill » the entire piano. I hear them many times but struggle to learn how to practice and integrate then into my own playing
See it this does it for you: 6 Tips for Better Jazz Arpeggios (ft. "When I Fall in Love")
th-cam.com/video/u_bNE6rtuNc/w-d-xo.html
By the way, I replied to your email and got lots of error messages. Did you ever get my reply?
Great video. Explained a lot for me.
Thanks for the nice comment, Dan! Thanks for watching.
Great lesson!
Many thanks for watching, Sander!
It's so HARD for you to be UNHIP! Even when trying to. 😍Love this!
Haha, that's generous. I'm grateful - thanks, Mark!
Jeremy you play so fast that even when I slow down the video I still can't make out what you are doing exactly, 😊regarding the runs mainly. Would be great to see a tut and explanation of those runs you were doing. Thanks for the lesson
the twelve step plan for a recovering cocktail pianist
step 1: Bach
step 2: Bach
…
step 12: Bach
Bach is always the answer!
I like La Campanella during cicktails but I end up interrupting guests with the loud trill and with the coda. Moonlight sonata is good too for this situation but then you turn heads when getting to third movement.
Lol...it's all about balance...
You are so amazing. Great explanation
I'm honored - thank you, Anastasia!
A Piano Colada, please!
Seems like both versions were played somewhat Heavy handed with frills. It’s been my experience that most people enjoy hearing a good jazz standard with lush chords and not straying too far off the range in terms of the melody. The “artsy” jazz pianist can also get carried away and completely butcher the song till the melody is unrecognizable….in a jazz bar setting that might be cool but most people would pay you to stop playing… hahaha
You’re a marvellous and very talented pianist.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Robert! I much appreciate it!
Fantastic tutorial, Jeremy. Buying a martini and leaving a fat tip for those non-cliched solo pianists. 4 hours per night:ouch.🌹🌹🌹🌹😎
Many many thanks! Enjoy your practicing, Brenda!
That was really useful!
Yay, I'm happy it was useful for you, Franklin!
For those who are not aware...
I think it would be remiss to NOT bring up the incredible work of Jonathan and Darlene Edwards in light of your video.
NOTE the pianist's hand in THIS album cover
th-cam.com/video/NySAbB2JLII/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUdam9uYXRoYW4gYW5kIGRhcmxlbmUgZWR3YXJkcyA%3D
Jonathan and Darlene Edwards were a musical comedy double act developed by American conductor and arranger Paul Weston ( March 12, 1912 - September 20, 1996), and his wife, singer Jo Stafford (November 12, 1917 - July 16, 2008). The routine was conceived in the 1950s, and involved Weston playing songs on the piano in unconventional rhythms, while Stafford sang off-key in a high pitched voice. The couple released five albums and one single as the Edwards, and their 1960 album, Jonathan and Darlene Edwards in Paris won that year's Grammy Award for Best Comedy Album.
Jonathan and Darlene Edwards is total gold!!!!! 😂
Thank you, Bobby! 😊
I have always wondered what the difference was...but I never would attend cocktail affairs so the only reference I had was from movies/TV. Thanks for showing us...and yes, stay off the sustain pedal.
Really interesting comparison. I only would have added another important point, namely listoning to oneself when playing piano. If you are bored by your playing yourself, you will hardly create emotions in your audience. I think this applies more to cocktail pianists than to jazz pianists, although there are certainly also exceptions from this rule.
Great point! Nothing works unless you’re listening to yourself!
What's the goal for the jazz/cocktail competition?
I'm not even a cocktail pianist (certainly not a professional pianist), but the "bad"cocktail pianist you describe is me!. But the tips you give about what the proper jazz pianist does are really useful. Thanks.
Great! Let's get you "reformed" and playing more tastefully! 😉
Your cocktail demonstrations kinda reminded me Liberace.
Haha, thank you! I do my best!
Haha, same!
German pianist Christian Fuchs says cocktail piano requires a lifetime of experience to play with style and taste.
I believe it! There are certainly incredible cocktail pianists and not-so-incredible ones...
@@JeremySiskind In fact, he specifically mentions classically trained pianists who play arpeggios and call it cocktail piano as being fakers.
@@codetech5598 I buy that!
I really enjoy Christian's music. He was longtime cocktail pianist in London before he began his blues tutorials. I understand his personal improvs as well, but he has to concentrate on current trends to earn a living. One size will never fit all and I tend not to criticise if I don't like something, just search around for something which suits my mood. There are good and bad in all genres.
i like the stereotyped cocktail piano example ha! But then after he explained it, i realized i would grow bored with it, because the frequent flourishes tend to homogenize the melodic content and diminish the novelty of each piece.. and then listening to him play authentically was so much better
Yay - it sounded like my video worked! 😆
Whats the secert to playing all the arpegios ???
You might like this: 6 Tips for Better Jazz Arpeggios (ft. "When I Fall in Love")
th-cam.com/video/u_bNE6rtuNc/w-d-xo.html
Playing bad cocktail piano ain't easy. I would much rather play bad cocktail piano than work my crappy low paying job. Ever onward!
Haha, fair enough! There's not so much around anymore, unfortunately.
I play cocktail piano and I don't play an arrpegio as frequently as you showed. As a cocktail piano player I don't play to entertain I play to set the mood for whatever event., A jazz piano player plays to entertain. As a cocktail piano player you're there to be in the background. not the focus of attention.
Great comment! Yes - I'm talking about the "stereotypical" hacky cocktail pianist. There are great people playing in all genres (and bad ones too. 😂)
Nice !
Your interpretation of cocktail piano sounded soooooo schmaltzy.
Martini, shaken not stirred.
Bachelor, Bob Bachelor. Thanks much, Bob!
Clear as bell Jeremy … thank you.
Many thanks for watching, Mark!
Great to listen to some real (albeit a little uncharacteristic for you) criticism, especially after the most recent podcast from Peter and Adam went out on Kenny G! Maybe you need to change the bmc link to bmam (buy me a martini)--headed there now.
Thanks much, Greg! I'm abstaining on the subject of Kenny G. He seems litigious...
Ah, a martini sounds great ;). I'm still considerably beneath the level of "bad" cocktail playing demonstrated here. I've had to learn (and am still learning) as an aspiring artist and musician to allow myself to pass through the "bad" techniques and not avoid progress simply because it's leading me toward styles that have been (rightly) criticized by others. If we're lucky, our tastes and ears will improve before our technical facility will be able to catch up. Some of my favorite artists gnash their teeth in interviews at their "low" level of skill, because they know where they want to get, and they're not there yet. A lifelong quest!
If I could only achieve 10% of this gorgeous standard I would feel quite accomplished! Often jazz players are too intent on showing off their chops with no regard for the melody. IMO without melody you got nothing! BTW would you consider the great Liberace whose style used so much flourishing arpegio a cocktail pianist?
I'm honored, Gerald! You can do it! Liberace is certainly at least related to the cocktail piano style...except that cocktail piano is meant to fade into the background whereas Liberace was meant to gain a lot of attention through his virtuosity.
Brilliant.
Gonna spend this rainy Sunday to start my journey to become a bad cocktail pianist.
This is very lowbrow, but my best memory of a Cocktail Pianist is Bill Murray on SNL and his “Auto Train” skit!
Haha love it!
Mocktail, please 😀🍓💚
Absolutely, Veena! 🍸 Thanks for watching!
Ohhh my favourite martini/cocktail is a Monkey Gland... interesting etymology and also delicious!
A Monkey Gland...I'll have to look that up! 🙉
When I sung in South Africa they had "monkey gland" sauce and burgers.😂😂
Pretty much any solo gig is a cocktail gig and some are really long - eg six sets switching between rooms. The main distinction is that you solo less and you're not supposed to draw people's attention when you do. You're not "the act", you're not much more than a waiter. The main problem is "turnaround tune tedium".
I used to use those soul destroying gigs to learn new repertoire and practice unfamiliar keys - you're not supposed to scare the horses but you can modulate pretty much anywhere without calling attention to yourself. Down by steps or semitones are options but you also move by minor or major thirds as well.
A great example of major third modulations - though definitely not cocktail - is Bill Evans on Rainy Day. Even good ears might not notice that he's Giant Stepping between choruses.
Great comment! Thanks for the insight - yep, you've got to keep it interesting, right?
@@JeremySiskind Meant to add a point from experience. You often get mistaken for a waiter on these gigs. Don't get uppity. Best to listen to what they want, say "of course, I'll send you someone right away" then tell one of the wait staff. On some residencies, I've even actually served drinks...
2:46 😂😂😂😂
Since you forgot the lyric, allow me to remind you. It goes
“I can’t get started with you…”
"I've been around the world in a plane
I've settled revolutions in Spain
The North Pole I have charted
But I can't get started with you"
Yes, it's a classic list song! Such an Ira Gershwin lyric...
Any good examples of beer jazz out there?
Lol, all jazz is beer jazz?
“ Good pianists think like an arranger… ”
I believe it! Especially in the case of solo piano.
You don’t even play bad when you try! I’d be happy if I could be as good as your version of a bad cocktail pianist
Martini please!
Coming right up! 🍸
Please pour me a pineapple juice.! Thank you for the thoughts on OP and no p (edal).
Haha, thanks Don. One 🍍 juice coming right up.
Yay martini!
Thanks for watching, Mary!
"...nobody, of course, would sing it that way"
Madeline Kahn (Blazing Saddles) begs to differ.
Haha, touche. Nobody in their right mind, maybe? 😆
I havnt even got the sound up on this video, and i can see his hands are flying all over the place ,, how can this be a tutorial?
I'm not sure it is a tutorial?
I feel personally attacked.
🫣😬 🤣😅
Lol, you're right, John, this video *was* about you! 😆 😆 😆
Jazz is the art of surprise and fresh avenues of cerebral stimulation… don’t go stale baby🎶
what about cocktail piano as interpreted by the Keith Jarret that lives within us (Kohn Concert style)? and not the typical songs, try Steel Dan cocktail...YA BABY!!
you might flunk your cocktail piano audition due to "YECCH face"
lol, I never stood a chance. Thanks for watching, Wade!
🍸🍹
Cheers, Lucius!
@@JeremySiskind Cheers, Jeremy!
to me it sounds like eubie blake vs art tatum
Interesting! I can't claim to be a big enough expert on either's playing (but particularly Eubie's playing) to comment intelligently.
haha if coctail and even te so callcd solo pianists in my coutry were better..this place would be different
Lol it actually sounded good in the cocktail version. Just appreciate different styles because they are beautifull in their own way instead of labelling "good or bad". Sometimes as a musician you forget that most audience dont know shit about music so they just hear and see if it feels good to them.
Interesting but you really need to treat your room.
Actual real jazz (true Scotsman logical fallacy)
Hmmmm, I'll have to think on that one. Thanks for watching, Kieran!
The terms “Jazz Musician” and “Cocktail Pianist” were used to separate the classical musicians by race. Black classical musicians were called jazz musicians because they “didn’t respect tradition” and were called cocktail pianists because they “couldn’t cut it in the orchestra” (they weren’t *allowed* to play) and had to play for the after hours instead of just enjoying the party
This sounds fishy to me. When and where was this happening?
@@ScottDuncan53 which part? Barry Harris explicitly states that he let people call him a jazz musician, but he knew he was the continuation of classical theory-people just labeled him jazz because he was black. There’s also video of hank jones saying he doesn’t like the term bebop because it’s demeaning to the musicians.
Barry said he would stand at the door and listen to the orchestra from outside because he wasn’t allowed in the theater. When all the white folks came out and headed to the corner bar for cocktails, he would be there playing the harmonies he had just heard in the orchestra. So yes. Black musicians were forced into cocktail positions because they weren’t allowed to even set foot in the theater. And the stereotype of cocktail musicians being inherently inferior was born!
@@ScottDuncan53 also, just a question… Why would any instance of anti-black racism in American music history “sound fishy” to you??
@@kajlundolsen I understand you better now. Your use of the terms"Classical" and "orchestra" are different from my usual understanding. I don't argue that there has been racism in American music, and in the case of Jazz, racism has gone in both directions. The part that seems fishy to me is where you write "didn't respect tradition", but that might be because I am mostly familiar with modern jazz players such as Winton Marsalis and many others who greatly respect the classical traditions.
Interesting comment! Thank for the knowledge!
Pour me an old-fashioned!
Any time, Chris!
This video would have been helpful in the 1940's... Now, I'm afraid it might be too late. Not sure.
Wow, you could've said basic or beginner rather than bad. People need somewhere to start!
Great point, Bethany! I'm just talking about genres in general, not specific pianists. 😉
I like the title of this video. Why cocktail is LAMER than jazz piano. Jazz piano is also lame! But cocktail piano is EVEN LAMER!
Pour me a martini!
I will, Paul! But you're not here, so I guess I'll have to drink it myself....
@@JeremySiskind Now I'm sad 😪
I call the bad cocktail pianist a "Nordstrom" piano player. You can't even tell what they are playing. Overdone and annoying. They add constant flourishes and frills to show off their lame style. I would never add those lame frills, which are always overdone.
Yep, I think that's very fair! Most people enjoy virtuosity, but there's some virtuosity that serves the tune...and other types that does not. And, in the end, it's gotta be all about the tune, right?
I would like a small glass of fernet. 🍻
Ooh, so classy! 😜
😁🍻
Well, your crappy cocktail playing was actually pretty lush to my ears and way better than anything I can play!
Haha, I appreciate it, Solar Mumuns! Hopefully you liked the later parts of the video even more...
It was lush and technically correct, but the point was that it was not done tastefully so it sounds corny and pretentious.
Pour me a martini please
Coming right up, Roger! 🍸
Jeremy.....I am one of COCKTAILERS.....and you simply exaggerate with those "arpeggios" and PEDAL.....please...some of us have a little TASTE...
Like I said, Adam, there are some good cocktail pianists and some very, very bad ones lol. Also, I think many just play 5 hour gigs and get tired. I would!
Agree...
Can you please pour me a double scotch?
I can...but I'll have to drink it myself since you're not here! 😉
If you're gonna clickbait in the title, get to the point within 30 seconds 👎
Cocktail version is better. Jazz version sounds wrong
You sound great regardless. But I do hear the difference that most people wouldn't have picked up on, had you not explained.
You're awesome on the piano. You demonstrated Oscar Peterson's style so well.
𝕋𝕙𝕒𝕟𝕜 𝕪𝕠𝕦 for 𝓼𝓱𝓪𝓻𝓲𝓷𝓰 this 𝕧𝕚𝕕𝕖𝕠.
That’s very kind, Joseph! I’m glad you enjoyed!