Richard.. ive been the "Other Guy" for close to 40 years...Yanking 4bbl Clevelands out of Torinos and jamming them into early 70s Capri 1's...Didn't take long To graduate to Big Block 460 Lincoln Motors...i was soon Running in the 9 second Zone with factory blocks and Cylinderheads.... My Modo for years was "Go Fast with Junk"...i still do it today...loved your 460 Ford and 500 Caddy Builds...Good Stuff..👍💪🇺🇸
When Detroit had to retard the cams to meet emissions so many motors stumbled on their nose. Please consider videos showing what putting in a multi index timing chain with the cam advanced 4-6 degrees can do. A good chain should always be on your eventual upgrade plan so a brief stop for a very low buck mod might be an eye opener. Would like to see some info on brake fuel specifics if you're collecting it anyway. Thanks for many good articles.
If the motor in question were a flat tappet cam motor I would just throw a sub $200 cam and lifter kit at it. But the other killer was the sad 8.5:1 compression a lot of them had 😬.
@@geoffmooregm it might be a good idea to leave carbon buildup in the engine and use an 89 to 94 octane gas to prevent knock, for a low budget old engine. I have found they often run better with more timing advance, to adjust for timing chain wear and higher quality fuel.
@Paul Schwartz True but advancing the cam has the effect of opening the intake a little sooner and more importantly closing it sooner which effectively traps more air in the cylinder which is why you see a higher cranking compression. With these old low compression engines and small cams this will likely translate to more usable power. You will never rev them much past 5000 RPM so making the best of a bad situation is all you can do without shelling out some money for better hardware.
@Paul Schwartz Well As Someone who Specialized in Building Ford engines (specifically 351Ws and 460s in Various power levels) The Compression hurt YES...But Getting the "Emissions" Timing Retarded Gears...AND the Retarded Ignition timing, and EGR tuned Carburetor. Makes a HUGE Difference on a Chassis Dyno where you can actually PULL the engine down to say 1500RPM...and see how much torque that the emissions... One Fine example was MY PERSONAL 1978 Lincoln Mark V with 31,000 miles on it *Rated SAE Gross* at 210@4200/357@2200, on the Chassis Dyno (where you Have Transmission and 9" rearend loss) in STOCK Configuration it made PEAK 151hp@4500~ and 270tq@2300 (I am pretty sure the torque converter was giving us a few RPM "advantage") but at 1500RPM it really didn't have any LESS power, the torque band is fairly flat... But I put new Timing Chain set and actually went from 8° Retarded to 4° Advanced... And from the pathetic factory ignition timing to 20° base timing, and 34° all in at 2500RPM without vacuum hooked up (low turning motor so its not 3500 or 4000) I deleted the EGR, the Factory Carb, and Deleted the Cats...I got 203hp@4300, and 344lb-ft of torque at 2000RPM... So it picked up 52hp and 74lb-ft of torque...With The FACTORY CAM! - The problem with YOUR theory that Retarded Cam Timing will kill high RPM horsepower....Is The Lack of understanding that YOU'LL NEVER Get The SLUG to Turn the 6500 RPM that the Retarded cam timing pushed the power peak to...So advancing cam timing 12° (and base ignition timing 19°) gave my engine far better performance where it was designed to run. They Castrated the Smog Engines to give them NO TORQUE...and cut horsepower because you can never spin it fast enough to USE the RETARDED cam. I also went from 11mpg hwy...to 17mpg hwy!
Speaking of "the other guys", a comparison of the Buick, Olds, Pontiac and Chevy 350's would be cool, especially since their bores and strokes vary so much
Most of the other 350s aside from the SBC are large “small blocks”. Hell the Buick has a damn external oiling system. Also Most dont make any power to speak of; Pontiac made a High Output 350 that was “OK” for a 350 of that time, but it’s no SBC. IMO the 350 CID “class” of stock engines is ruled in popularity by the 350 SBC and in performance by the 351C SBF. As far as build potential, the sky is the limit with any of them; I have seen even the little old aluminum 215 CID Olds make 600 HP with boost so anything is possible in that regard.
@@richardholdener1727 Richard I would love to see a LA pre-magnum and Magnum done side-by-side if that's at all possible. Also I would love to see a street build done with say, Atomic EFI or similar vs 4-barrel carb build. Thanks mate.
Honestly that's why I love my Pontiac 350. Put down 97hp to the wheels when I got it. Now its at least 50% more. Its more impressive if you don't do the math.
When I was a teen n had a hand-me-down big ol 81 chrysler newport I blew the pathetic 2 bbl leanburn 318 up so got another 318 did a re ring bearing rebuild put a mild summit racing performance cam an a factory aluminum 4bbl intake of an 82 diplomat police car and topped it with a quadrajet, ditched the leanburn for a 70s oem electronic ignition of a junkyard dodge van, tore all emissions off air pump, egr, miles of old leakie vacuum lines ect, replaced the entire exhaust (3 plugged converter deleat!) from manifolds back to 2.25" duals and it prob added (and or free'd up) 100+hp the power or more... Starting from choked up prob 140 new hp down 20hp wouldn't b mind blowing... It actually ran really strong actually pretty fast for the day. Also swapped in slant 6 tourque converter on the 904 it raised the stall up a few 2 or 300 rpm and helped get it's big ass moving. 235/60s on the cop cars steel slot wheels looked kinda cool and that 20' exhaust with bombs n 2" aft sounded glorious.
Earlier this year I yanked the TBI 350 out of my truck and replaced it with a Vortec. The old motor was rusty and trashed, but after seeing it on the garage floor for a month, I decided to see if the machinist could clean it up, after all, it's free. One of the heads is too far gone, but everything else cleaned up nicely. Originally it was optimistically advertised as 210 hp and 300 lb/ft torque, but with some porting work, a mild cam, and a decent intake it should be a great runner.
We all like the max HP builds to watch bench racing, but honestly, this is a good example of what 75% of us go with when we build engines. A good rebuild and HCI. Shows how you can get a lot of bang for the buck and enjoy a good increase in power even if you don't have 20k to throw at an engine.
Love the videos and info, one suggestion is to include clips of all these things running..I know it doesnt sound exciting but I think it would make a huge difference. If you could split screen them while you are discussing each engine or put it on screen somehow that would be great... I would love to actually see the setups..
It was freaky how long that Chevy cranked out 225 hp. From 3600 to 4800 rpm. You could pull a 6000 pound trailer up some pretty steep hills all day every day with that thing. Nicely tuned factory truck engine. Not enough power to hurt itself. It would be cool to put a turbo and intercooler running 8 psi on it and bring the power up to about 330, and it would still not have enough power to hurt itself. And it would still make 330 hp at 10,000 ft.
Here is a shootout idea to consider. A junkyard 318 Magnum vs a 5.3 LS. Both are roller motors with about 10 to 1 compression. Put a dual plane on each with a carb to an apples to apples. 1/ 5/8 headers, stock heads to stock heads. Then add some. Ported EQ heads to the 318 and some TEA heads to the 5.3 as well. Do as close to the same came as possible for each as well, a BTR stage 1 truck spec or similar and then a 230ish cam for both. The 318 may not like as wide a split as the LS engines seem to like?
@@richardholdener1727 I guess that will have to do? Some properly ported EQ's (Bryce M.?) will be Great street heads or a set of his new CNC aluminum works of art would be cool to see with a proper hyd roller & a Perf RPM would be cool. I will still call you Chicken though. I have heard someone say, "That is why we test", quite often. Unless my memory has as I achieve true antiquity failed me again? Idle vacuum would be an interesting additional piece of information to provide on the cams over 230 degrees as well, especially on the mini motors?
Have you seen any of the videos Richard has made? He has literally done hundreds of variants to make power on LS engines and many others. Not sure about Yotes.
I tend to follow a similar mindset, then I ran into the 255cid Windsor from a late 70's Granada. The sleeves are nigh impossible to hone out. The heads have severely undersized combustion chamders, so you have to score new ones from a 289 or 302. Also, the intake is an odd proprietary arrangement. Only thing builders seem interested in when it comes to the fuel crunch era 255 are the extra lightweight sodium filled valves and as i recall those are undersized because of the tiny combustion chamber. There's my challenge to you, make a high rev 255 that can breathe.
Great video. Basically where we all started back in high school. Take what we had and go up. I still have my 5.0 from my 83 mustang GT. Originally a 165ish hp motor that I got up to over 400hp and kept it super reliable. I still run it but it is in my street Rod and doesn’t get the daily driver miles like it used to. Also, I was impressed by all of these because they all seemed to out power the factory ratings for when they were new. 5.0s from that era were only rated at 225-235hp. Seems the factory rounded down on all of these. I bet the 350 and 360 were advertised at under 200hp.
The LA 360 has the better of the exhaust ports for its heads. You really needed a magnum 360. The LA 360 doesn't compare to the newer magnum generation.
@DaveCaresForYou They have grams lighter internal components like connecting rods and the rotating assembly. They have heads with better intake and exhaust ports. The heads are so well made that I can run 10.5:1 compression on regular pump gas without detonation issues.
@@youcanbesmartaskhow3857 I can get a magnum engine for the same price as an LA. Parts for the LA are a little bit cheaper because they made so many 360s and 318s before 1992. A magnum offers the greatest value in all.
@@youcanbesmartaskhow3857 Yes. But each engine came from a different time period. It's just an ok comparison when you consider what each engine came stock.
Great Info Richard as always... No one on TH-cam give us the information that we need like Rich period... Can't wait till you max out the 455 Buick tho Brody💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
Some people might think I'm cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs but I'm a big Buick 350 guy. As a matter of fact I talked to a friend here in the Boise Idaho area and hopefully soon I'll be picking up a complete Buick 350 from a 69 LeSabre with the 400 package. I see another Comp Cams 468H and s Carter 675 in the near future :-)
Nothing Cookoo at all about the Buick 350 - gobs of torque and a bulletproof lower end. Only drawback is limited performance parts because it never got the respect of the 455.
I know they’re not a common build anymore outside of nostalgia racing, but you really should do an “other guys” series on fords first big block- the FE series. Preferably a 390 for us guys without Rockefeller dollars
See the Carsthatlast TH-cam videos for which older vehicles are overall more reliable. More power really only matters if you are racing. The street is more about how it feels taking off from a stoplight, and economy. For older vehicles, I am a fan of the Jeep Cherokee with an inline 6, 4.0 liter, except the stock front seats bent back after rough roads from having a weak steel frame.
Got my 350 outta wrecked 78 sub for 0$ like 20 years ago. Put a rebuilt quad on it and haven't needed to do anything but change the oil since. Makes my 82' shortbed go just as fast as I need it to go.
Lol, most of my women friends have two barrels. Every now and then there's one with three. Always potential. Yep, happy horsepower hour can happen at any time of the day!!
What if you'd do the same thing with more recent V8's? I would choose a junkyard Mopar V8 4.7 PowerTech made after 2008. It makes 310 hp and 334 lb-ft of torque which is more than any stock 3rd and 4th generation LS 4.8. It also make more power and torque than any 5.3 LS from the 3rd generation small block except the L33 (the L33 produces 1 lb-ft more at 335) and the LS4-LH8, from the 4th generation small block. If it can be modified easily it could interesting to compare the 4.7 (2008 and later) to what the others have to offer.
In reality it all comes down to Funding the project ! We would all love to have that "Unlimited " Funds deal going on ! But OMG $ 1000 per every 100 HP Gain is rediculous !
Steve's shed on entry level builds perhaps $10 per Hp is a bit much. On higher level builds on NA motors it's a steal. You can give me 50 more HP for $500 on my built 455 Pontiac? Where's my wallet?
Horsepower has its own supply-demand curve... the more you demand out of a platform the more it tends to cost and the last 10-20 ponies can cost every bit as much as all the hp that preceded it. The first increases are always the cheapest, maybe even free. The one exception in my mind is nitrous, where jet changes are cheap although taking it to or over the edge usually means a short life motor. I will say that for many people out here over power their street cars or build engines to specs not really needed and often they spend a lot for those last few ponies which they might use 10 times in the vehicles life. The junkyard is a great way to put together a very strong package for street use and even friendly track use. When you get into hard core race engines, you might be talking $10,000+ for those last couple of HP, but you have to accommodate class restrictions in those cases. Without any restriction on block, there are several ways you can get 500hp in the $2-$4 cost range from existing salvaged parts.
I could understand someone looking at a Ford 5.0 and thinking that's too small to make HP, since a 5.8/351W is about as cheap and easy to pick in a boneyard. I think a better "starting point" comparo would be a 5.0 Chevy and a 318 Mopar, those are engines most pass over to grab a 5.7 or a 360. But he's going with what he has on file, and as a Fordanatic I should be pleased it did well :) A junkyard that allows you to bolt on Explorer GT40P heads and their Cobra style intake but charge you as one purchase, let's you have a nice power-to-weight ratio purchase.
I want to see the difference in low end torque between a sbc edelbrock eps vs rpm manifold with mild cam and mild stock pre vortec head. Some say the rpm intake doesn't kill low end torque.
I think your videos are awesome. They give you alternatives to think about. What is the difference in the power curve of a stock vs stroked engine. Is it worth stroking an engine? The reason I ask, I want to take a 302 roller and stroke it to a 331 for a jeep application. I'd like to keep the original drive train so I'm limited on the amount of power I want to make. I'm after the torque.
Richard love these videos you do ... theres just too much work involved and its just awesome 👌👌 i have a 95 gt mustang 5.0 .. i wish i could get some kind of cams/heads just to make it run about 300 hp ..i live in qatar and im really short on spares and engine parts
i like the video,but,i think you really stacked the deck with that particular ford motor. a fair test would have been a bone stock 302 out of a passenger car,OR if you had tossed a lm-3 or a ls chevy 350 and a 360 Magnum motor out of a truck into that test,it would have been a Fair comparison. just a few thoughts. actually,i would be very interested to hear Your thoughts on the magnum 318 and 360 from the 1995 and up truck series generation of motors. a lot of us have been using them for swaps. cheers
Fair one comparisson could be similar displacement with the ford 351. I like what you suggest, comparing the ford 5.8 - vortec 5.7 and magnum 5.9, last version of those pushrod v8s
@@richardholdener1727 i would be very interested to hear Your thoughts on the magnum 318 and 360 from the 1995 and up truck series generation of motors. a lot of us have been using them for swaps. cheers
@@richardholdener1727 I and several others apreciate your work, showing what works and not when upgrading parts. When you took a crate sbc then swapped cam, intake and vortec heads and got big numbers. Your 360 a real underdog, cam, intake and ported heads, impressive numbers too.
Why do people ask, "why didn't you use a better engine?", when he repeatedly told us why he used crap [with POTENTIAL] as a starting point??? Keep showing us what to do when we DON'T have our pick/unlimited budget Richard!!!
spraying the old oil from the oil change onto parts that can rust, is a vary cheep way to make the car or truck last longer. the little bit of rust that the oil finds, will stick good to the ruff structure of rust.
I find it entertaining that he used a Ford 302 to compete with a chevy 350 and a Dodge 360 😂😂😂. Dodge has a 318 and Chevy has a 305. It's a good thing he didn't compare those against the 302 😂🤣😂🤣😂 I'm sorry, but in this era, Ford DOMINATED the competition. This should have been a Ford 351 vs Chevy 350vl vs Dodge 360! Even though the 351's vs the 302's wasn't a huge difference it still attests to Ford's superiority over the competition 😊. True haters comment. True enthusiasts just like 👍
Yeeaah.. the Ford pushrods dominated. And I'm pretty sure it's due to the port locations and orientation. Ford's being all evenly spaced and the competition were not, that spacing allowed for better flow.. circle back, the 351 is still a viable option for a build against the LS, I still believe we need to be able to build up mod motors now. A built 6.2 ford vs an LS 6.2….
I don't that was his goal. To compare each together. Think.. he just picked 3 popular small blocks and tested each with bolt ons. Not to see which was better.
I don’t have much mechanical background but I’ve always been one of the other guys at heart haha I’ve got a 350 sbc cherry and I’ve done some very minor upgrades like the air filter frequent oil changes spark plugs wires cap and rotor very basic stuff anyone know where to start for some more basic but intermediate engine upgrades just looking for the right place to start really
Mr. Holdener, someday could you do a Cost VS Power analysis of engines built since 1990??? It would be cool to see just what you could expect to get for $1500 or $2000 plus a junkyard engine. I imagine you could do this with data you already have. I'm pretty sure I know who the best and worst are...........poor Ford 4 valves, ya can't even change the cams for 1500.
The 350 manifolds were C4 corvette stainless, I've mig welded a couple sets. Log manifolds would of been maybe about 10-15hp less. I'm surprised the mild port 882's did so well
Yeah, those c4 manifolds aren't too bad as everyone says they are. It think Lingerfelt said they were decent in one of his books. Much better then the logs that came on the 3rd gen f body cars.
@@mcqueenfanman I think its cause they only really fit corvettes is why you don't hear much bout them. I always hear LT1 manifolds are the best but I've never seen them compared to these. Be a cool shoot-out, I'd also toss in 2.5" ramhorns & an aftermarket block hugger shorty.
Richard what "small cam" did you use on the 350 chevy build? 422 foot pounds is pretty impressive from the rest of the combo. Love the videos. Like other have said do a 318 dodge video. Thanks
i have an 02 dodge ram 1500 with the 360 engine and i would love to build the most powerful 360 that will run on 87. its fuel injected and I'm not sure on what my tuning options are if i start building this engine.
No it won't. I'm a Mopar fan but even I know the 5.9L/360 can't hang with the 350s. 5.9/360s are dog motors and there aren't nearly as many performance parts available for the 5.9/360 as there is the 5.7/350
@@tskraj3190 bull fucking shit bud. mopar head design is FAR better than a sbc. raised exhaust ports, 23 degree valves, etc...360 beats a 350 every time. hell, a 351w beats a 350 chevy every time.
We wrote back and forth before I'm the Mopar Nut from Vermont "THE VERMONSTER" thank you for this demo question I heard that the 360 cylinder head 1988 1989 I believe this was claimed to be the best head factory set up please write back let me know thanks BUB
Now, do the same with the sbc 267 motor. no guts, no glory and lots of potential with more cam. ported heds and dual plane intake on it. choose something like Roller cam ( 212 /216 ) that will fit under stock heads. like maybe valve lift of .485 . Back in the day if I was blessed with it ratherthan the 305 ( which got a Cam Dynamics cam with an operating range of 2200 to6500 ) the actual cam specs I have long ago forgotten. sure woke up the 305 and surely would have done the same with a 267. And by 267 I mean the one that was offered between '79 and '81 . 3.48 stroke, 3.50 bore.
@Jackson P. Storm If I had the opportunity to build one. That is pretty much how I would do it as well. I may be a bit overboard on the 222@050 cam. but hey, i've done wilder in a 305 and got away with it. As for a lot of the publications, they see its a 120Horse motor and scoff at it because they don't see the challenge in it.
I put a "starter motor " $50 110hp 260 Olds in my Cutlass, looking to at least double the factory HP with two turbos! Have you tested any of the small v8s? Under 300ci?
I have a question i have a 302 in my ranger from a 87 truck, the piston has valve reliefs. Is this stock or after market because it also has some sort of pretty aggresive cam
A 351w would have been a better "apples to apples" than the 302 vs 350vs 360. I'd like to see a ford v ford shootout with 352 (or 360) FE vs 351W vs 351C vs 351 clevor ! Then stroke each to 4.00". Add good heads and.... boost!
@@richardholdener1727 my son is probably gonna buy a 396 from the machine shop we use for a 1988 Chevy truck. Truck = heavy... Big Block = torque to move heavy.. lol😂😂😂
are those 40 over pistons in that 302? I'm a mopar guy and 360's are cool but me I would rather have the 318 I have made big power with those engines and many think they are the throw away engine and want the 360 over the 318 but I like proving people wrong and take a 318 and build a little power house out of it.
@Richard Holdener can I put hypereutectic flat top pistons in my stock 400 small chevy and get away with not having it rebalanced? I know it’s not ideal but is it really the end of the world that guys say it is? Talking razor blade rebuild. Thanks for the great videos.
I would have rather seeing a comparison with closer CID engines like the 351W Ford , 360 Dodge , and 350 Chevy or a baby V8 of the Big 3 ...... 302 Ford , 318 Dodge , and a 307 Chevy
Long live the small block American v 8s.
Gonna miss em when there gone one day.
Richard making old v8's great again!
Richard.. ive been the "Other Guy" for close to 40 years...Yanking 4bbl Clevelands out of Torinos and jamming them into early 70s Capri 1's...Didn't take long To graduate to Big Block 460 Lincoln Motors...i was soon Running in the 9 second Zone with factory blocks and Cylinderheads.... My Modo for years was "Go Fast with Junk"...i still do it today...loved your 460 Ford and 500 Caddy Builds...Good Stuff..👍💪🇺🇸
I like those Capris
@@richardholdener1727 ...had a long nose for a little car...it would except sbc..sbf...and 351 Cleveland pretty easily....
Great video! One of my favorites. Im a younger guy, but i still like the older stuff.
8👍's up thanks again for taking us all along with you for the great show
Kinda impressed by the stock 2b Chevy making 350ftlbs. Not shabby for what It was.
log manifold woulda been worse, those C4 ones are pretty much a shorty header
Agreed
Yes very impressive. 👍🏻
shorty headers usually add nothing compared to stock cast manifolds (those vette manifolds were only used for the photo)
Im still blown away Richards 4.6 npi making 341ft lbs.
When Detroit had to retard the cams to meet emissions so many motors stumbled on their nose. Please consider videos showing what putting in a multi index timing chain with the cam advanced 4-6 degrees can do. A good chain should always be on your eventual upgrade plan so a brief stop for a very low buck mod might be an eye opener. Would like to see some info on brake fuel specifics if you're collecting it anyway. Thanks for many good articles.
If the motor in question were a flat tappet cam motor I would just throw a sub $200 cam and lifter kit at it. But the other killer was the sad 8.5:1 compression a lot of them had 😬.
@@geoffmooregm it might be a good idea to leave carbon buildup in the engine and use an 89 to 94 octane gas to prevent knock, for a low budget old engine. I have found they often run better with more timing advance, to adjust for timing chain wear and higher quality fuel.
@Paul Schwartz True but advancing the cam has the effect of opening the intake a little sooner and more importantly closing it sooner which effectively traps more air in the cylinder which is why you see a higher cranking compression. With these old low compression engines and small cams this will likely translate to more usable power. You will never rev them much past 5000 RPM so making the best of a bad situation is all you can do without shelling out some money for better hardware.
He has a video on adjustable chains using the LS9 cam. It does next to nothing.
@Paul Schwartz Well As Someone who Specialized in Building Ford engines (specifically 351Ws and 460s in Various power levels) The Compression hurt YES...But Getting the "Emissions" Timing Retarded Gears...AND the Retarded Ignition timing, and EGR tuned Carburetor. Makes a HUGE Difference on a Chassis Dyno where you can actually PULL the engine down to say 1500RPM...and see how much torque that the emissions... One Fine example was MY PERSONAL 1978 Lincoln Mark V with 31,000 miles on it *Rated SAE Gross* at 210@4200/357@2200, on the Chassis Dyno (where you Have Transmission and 9" rearend loss) in STOCK Configuration it made PEAK 151hp@4500~ and 270tq@2300 (I am pretty sure the torque converter was giving us a few RPM "advantage") but at 1500RPM it really didn't have any LESS power, the torque band is fairly flat... But I put new Timing Chain set and actually went from 8° Retarded to 4° Advanced... And from the pathetic factory ignition timing to 20° base timing, and 34° all in at 2500RPM without vacuum hooked up (low turning motor so its not 3500 or 4000) I deleted the EGR, the Factory Carb, and Deleted the Cats...I got 203hp@4300, and 344lb-ft of torque at 2000RPM... So it picked up 52hp and 74lb-ft of torque...With The FACTORY CAM! - The problem with YOUR theory that Retarded Cam Timing will kill high RPM horsepower....Is The Lack of understanding that YOU'LL NEVER Get The SLUG to Turn the 6500 RPM that the Retarded cam timing pushed the power peak to...So advancing cam timing 12° (and base ignition timing 19°) gave my engine far better performance where it was designed to run.
They Castrated the Smog Engines to give them NO TORQUE...and cut horsepower because you can never spin it fast enough to USE the RETARDED cam.
I also went from 11mpg hwy...to 17mpg hwy!
Congratulations on reaching 100K Richard, looks like “The other Guys” are subscribing now :D
Thanks! 😃
Speaking of "the other guys", a comparison of the Buick, Olds, Pontiac and Chevy 350's would be cool, especially since their bores and strokes vary so much
This would be super neat
Most of the other 350s aside from the SBC are large “small blocks”. Hell the Buick has a damn external oiling system. Also Most dont make any power to speak of; Pontiac made a High Output 350 that was “OK” for a 350 of that time, but it’s no SBC. IMO the 350 CID “class” of stock engines is ruled in popularity by the 350 SBC and in performance by the 351C SBF. As far as build potential, the sky is the limit with any of them; I have seen even the little old aluminum 215 CID Olds make 600 HP with boost so anything is possible in that regard.
Yep Richard you are absolutely right. And the really good thing about those engines, is they don't make enough power to hurt themselves.
Richard, can you please, please, please do a Chrysler 318 build!!! Please!
Good idea. They made more of those than anything else, I bet.
I'm getting a magnum soon
@@richardholdener1727 can you do that build with a carburetor and. The factory efi
@@richardholdener1727 Richard I would love to see a LA pre-magnum and Magnum done side-by-side if that's at all possible. Also I would love to see a street build done with say, Atomic EFI or similar vs 4-barrel carb build. Thanks mate.
YES!!
I can listen to this guy all day. Awesome info.
Honestly that's why I love my Pontiac 350. Put down 97hp to the wheels when I got it. Now its at least 50% more. Its more impressive if you don't do the math.
When I was a teen n had a hand-me-down big ol 81 chrysler newport I blew the pathetic 2 bbl leanburn 318 up so got another 318 did a re ring bearing rebuild put a mild summit racing performance cam an a factory aluminum 4bbl intake of an 82 diplomat police car and topped it with a quadrajet, ditched the leanburn for a 70s oem electronic ignition of a junkyard dodge van, tore all emissions off air pump, egr, miles of old leakie vacuum lines ect, replaced the entire exhaust (3 plugged converter deleat!) from manifolds back to 2.25" duals and it prob added (and or free'd up) 100+hp the power or more... Starting from choked up prob 140 new hp down 20hp wouldn't b mind blowing... It actually ran really strong actually pretty fast for the day. Also swapped in slant 6 tourque converter on the 904 it raised the stall up a few 2 or 300 rpm and helped get it's big ass moving. 235/60s on the cop cars steel slot wheels looked kinda cool and that 20' exhaust with bombs n 2" aft sounded glorious.
Earlier this year I yanked the TBI 350 out of my truck and replaced it with a Vortec. The old motor was rusty and trashed, but after seeing it on the garage floor for a month, I decided to see if the machinist could clean it up, after all, it's free. One of the heads is too far gone, but everything else cleaned up nicely. Originally it was optimistically advertised as 210 hp and 300 lb/ft torque, but with some porting work, a mild cam, and a decent intake it should be a great runner.
We all like the max HP builds to watch bench racing, but honestly, this is a good example of what 75% of us go with when we build engines. A good rebuild and HCI. Shows how you can get a lot of bang for the buck and enjoy a good increase in power even if you don't have 20k to throw at an engine.
Love the videos and info, one suggestion is to include clips of all these things running..I know it doesnt sound exciting but I think it would make a huge difference. If you could split screen them while you are discussing each engine or put it on screen somehow that would be great... I would love to actually see the setups..
the videos where there is no clip of the engine running is because there was none shot-most we done for magazine stories before You Tube existed
It was freaky how long that Chevy cranked out 225 hp. From 3600 to 4800 rpm. You could pull a 6000 pound trailer up some pretty steep hills all day every day with that thing. Nicely tuned factory truck engine. Not enough power to hurt itself. It would be cool to put a turbo and intercooler running 8 psi on it and bring the power up to about 330, and it would still not have enough power to hurt itself. And it would still make 330 hp at 10,000 ft.
Here is a shootout idea to consider. A junkyard 318 Magnum vs a 5.3 LS. Both are roller motors with about 10 to 1 compression. Put a dual plane on each with a carb to an apples to apples. 1/ 5/8 headers, stock heads to stock heads. Then add some. Ported EQ heads to the 318 and some TEA heads to the 5.3 as well. Do as close to the same came as possible for each as well, a BTR stage 1 truck spec or similar and then a 230ish cam for both. The 318 may not like as wide a split as the LS engines seem to like?
a 318 won't even be close to the 5.3L-but I plan on testing a magnum 360
@@richardholdener1727 I guess that will have to do? Some properly ported EQ's (Bryce M.?) will be Great street heads or a set of his new CNC aluminum works of art would be cool to see with a proper hyd roller & a Perf RPM would be cool. I will still call you Chicken though. I have heard someone say, "That is why we test", quite often. Unless my memory has as I achieve true antiquity failed me again? Idle vacuum would be an interesting additional piece of information to provide on the cams over 230 degrees as well, especially on the mini motors?
Great video. Now you should do one with the new engines. The Yotes, LS and the New Gen Hemi. Aka the yea 2000 - 2009 series of motors.
Plenty of videos.
Have you seen any of the videos Richard has made? He has literally done hundreds of variants to make power on LS engines and many others. Not sure about Yotes.
Cktime ThirtyTwo yote is not from 2000-2009
Have you thought of making a vid of it the next time you pull a motor out of a junkyard? I'd like to see some of the process.
Same here
You do good videos. Thank you.
My van had a stock 5.2 and I loved it. Perfect power band for a van.
I tend to follow a similar mindset, then I ran into the 255cid Windsor from a late 70's Granada.
The sleeves are nigh impossible to hone out. The heads have severely undersized combustion chamders, so you have to score new ones from a 289 or 302. Also, the intake is an odd proprietary arrangement.
Only thing builders seem interested in when it comes to the fuel crunch era 255 are the extra lightweight sodium filled valves and as i recall those are undersized because of the tiny combustion chamber.
There's my challenge to you, make a high rev 255 that can breathe.
Great video. Basically where we all started back in high school. Take what we had and go up. I still have my 5.0 from my 83 mustang GT. Originally a 165ish hp motor that I got up to over 400hp and kept it super reliable. I still run it but it is in my street Rod and doesn’t get the daily driver miles like it used to. Also, I was impressed by all of these because they all seemed to out power the factory ratings for when they were new. 5.0s from that era were only rated at 225-235hp. Seems the factory rounded down on all of these. I bet the 350 and 360 were advertised at under 200hp.
The LA 360 has the better of the exhaust ports for its heads. You really needed a magnum 360. The LA 360 doesn't compare to the newer magnum generation.
Watch the video. The answer is in the first 2 minutes. Picked crap on purpose and tells you why. Potential
@DaveCaresForYou They have grams lighter internal components like connecting rods and the rotating assembly. They have heads with better intake and exhaust ports. The heads are so well made that I can run 10.5:1 compression on regular pump gas without detonation issues.
@@youcanbesmartaskhow3857 I can get a magnum engine for the same price as an LA. Parts for the LA are a little bit cheaper because they made so many 360s and 318s before 1992. A magnum offers the greatest
value in all.
@@beniamino939 correct. Which is why he picked the one he did. Potential.
@@youcanbesmartaskhow3857 Yes. But each engine came from a different time period. It's just an ok comparison when you consider what each engine came stock.
I like the video but my only complaint as a ford fan was using the 302 instead of the 351w. of course the Chevy guys would get upset lol
"Take me home and make me awesome!"
Keep the genius coming Richard.
Can you do a 5.0 Ford cam test? B,E,F,X vs xe274 vs crane that you like!! Lol
yes
Thank God for Richard! This is MUCH better TV than the debates LOL!
Great Info Richard as always... No one on TH-cam give us the information that we need like Rich period... Can't wait till you max out the 455 Buick tho Brody💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
The power of positive thinking! 👍
Some people might think I'm cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs but I'm a big Buick 350 guy. As a matter of fact I talked to a friend here in the Boise Idaho area and hopefully soon I'll be picking up a complete Buick 350 from a 69 LeSabre with the 400 package. I see another Comp Cams 468H and s Carter 675 in the near future :-)
Nothing Cookoo at all about the Buick 350 - gobs of torque and a bulletproof lower end. Only drawback is limited performance parts because it never got the respect of the 455.
Hey Rich try a 305 with a small solid roller something like a mag.555 or 575 comp cam and ported tfs heads or vortex heads
that video is up
I know they’re not a common build anymore outside of nostalgia racing, but you really should do an “other guys” series on fords first big block- the FE series. Preferably a 390 for us guys without Rockefeller dollars
yes on fe
Steve Martin from My Blue Heaven: "you see a problem, I see potential"
Its almost a stationary industrial engine shootout. Still awesome lol
See the Carsthatlast TH-cam videos for which older vehicles are overall more reliable. More power really only matters if you are racing. The street is more about how it feels taking off from a stoplight, and economy. For older vehicles, I am a fan of the Jeep Cherokee with an inline 6, 4.0 liter, except the stock front seats bent back after rough roads from having a weak steel frame.
Got my 350 outta wrecked 78 sub for 0$ like 20 years ago. Put a rebuilt quad on it and haven't needed to do anything but change the oil since. Makes my 82' shortbed go just as fast as I need it to go.
I follow the same mind set, every engine is just a starting point.
Cool test, kinda have to wonder why you didn't compare one of your 351 Windsor junkyard engines in similar trim to the 350 and 360?
You made almost as much hp N/a than the $ 699 sbc turbo kit episode. 546hp 619 tq.
I’d like to see a 430 Buick or a 389 Pontiac. Even a roller cam 351 Cleveland with the Parker funnel web intake!
I just realised these way underpowered stock engined probably never really stressed their components.
I mean parts won't be very fatigued.
Thanks, inspiration at its best!
I hope everyone that watches this channel is " the other guy".
something about squirrels??
Lol, most of my women friends have two barrels. Every now and then there's one with three. Always potential. Yep, happy horsepower hour can happen at any time of the day!!
Factory E7 headed EFI 302’s had a factory forged piston from TRW anyway; so the fact that you added a forged piston doesn’t change anything at all.
except valve relief for bigger cams
A 351 Windsor would have been a better pick for the Ford motor.
Looks like the other 2 motors were truck motors
What if you'd do the same thing with more recent V8's? I would choose a junkyard Mopar V8 4.7 PowerTech made after 2008. It makes 310 hp and 334 lb-ft of torque which is more than any stock 3rd and 4th generation LS 4.8. It also make more power and torque than any 5.3 LS from the 3rd generation small block except the L33 (the L33 produces 1 lb-ft more at 335) and the LS4-LH8, from the 4th generation small block. If it can be modified easily it could interesting to compare the 4.7 (2008 and later) to what the others have to offer.
In reality it all comes down to Funding the project !
We would all love to have that "Unlimited "
Funds deal going on !
But OMG $ 1000 per every 100 HP Gain is rediculous !
Exactly why I love these junk yard builds. Doing head swaps ect.
Steve's shed on entry level builds perhaps $10 per Hp is a bit much. On higher level builds on NA motors it's a steal. You can give me 50 more HP for $500 on my built 455 Pontiac? Where's my wallet?
@@johnbecay6887 I agree. That's a bargain --$500 bucks for 50 hp? Sign me up--as long as theres no laughing gas involved!!!!!
Horsepower has its own supply-demand curve... the more you demand out of a platform the more it tends to cost and the last 10-20 ponies can cost every bit as much as all the hp that preceded it. The first increases are always the cheapest, maybe even free. The one exception in my mind is nitrous, where jet changes are cheap although taking it to or over the edge usually means a short life motor. I will say that for many people out here over power their street cars or build engines to specs not really needed and often they spend a lot for those last few ponies which they might use 10 times in the vehicles life. The junkyard is a great way to put together a very strong package for street use and even friendly track use. When you get into hard core race engines, you might be talking $10,000+ for those last couple of HP, but you have to accommodate class restrictions in those cases. Without any restriction on block, there are several ways you can get 500hp in the $2-$4 cost range from existing salvaged parts.
I added 100 hp from just minor bolt ons and tuning. Total cost 800$. Stock cam and heads. About 8$ a hp. 231ci Buick v6.
I love at of them I love engines good job 👏
You should try products like compression restore and see if so many hours of use actually increase horsepower by helping low cylinder compression
I could understand someone looking at a Ford 5.0 and thinking that's too small to make HP, since a 5.8/351W is about as cheap and easy to pick in a boneyard. I think a better "starting point" comparo would be a 5.0 Chevy and a 318 Mopar, those are engines most pass over to grab a 5.7 or a 360. But he's going with what he has on file, and as a Fordanatic I should be pleased it did well :)
A junkyard that allows you to bolt on Explorer GT40P heads and their Cobra style intake but charge you as one purchase, let's you have a nice power-to-weight ratio purchase.
I want to see the difference in low end torque between a sbc edelbrock eps vs rpm manifold with mild cam and mild stock pre vortec head. Some say the rpm intake doesn't kill low end torque.
I think your videos are awesome. They give you alternatives to think about. What is the difference in the power curve of a stock vs stroked engine. Is it worth stroking an engine? The reason I ask, I want to take a 302 roller and stroke it to a 331 for a jeep application. I'd like to keep the original drive train so I'm limited on the amount of power I want to make. I'm after the torque.
look at the 4.8L vs 5.3l vs 6.0L vs 6.2l to see the effect of displacement (works the same on a Ford)
@@richardholdener1727 Ok, How does the multi port inject fair against the TBI? Example Holley Sniper vs Holley muti port.
I seen the video and had to comment. Currently watching the rest of the video now
Great video as always
I've always said find out what's the short comings of a engine improve those and it will make some power
Eh, you think that's a unique train of thought? That's the basis of all tuning and optimizing.
Richard love these videos you do ... theres just too much work involved and its just awesome 👌👌 i have a 95 gt mustang 5.0 .. i wish i could get some kind of cams/heads just to make it run about 300 hp ..i live in qatar and im really short on spares and engine parts
i like the video,but,i think you really stacked the deck with that particular ford motor.
a fair test would have been a bone stock 302 out of a passenger car,OR
if you had tossed a lm-3 or a ls chevy 350 and a 360 Magnum motor out of a truck into that test,it would have been a Fair comparison.
just a few thoughts.
actually,i would be very interested to hear Your thoughts on the magnum 318 and 360 from the 1995 and up truck series generation of motors.
a lot of us have been using them for swaps.
cheers
Fair one comparisson could be similar displacement with the ford 351. I like what you suggest, comparing the ford 5.8 - vortec 5.7 and magnum 5.9, last version of those pushrod v8s
o irsenol agree. Richard always drags the smallest displacement ford instead of comparing similar displacemts
these are just three motors I ran-not a competition
@@richardholdener1727 i would be very interested to hear Your thoughts on the magnum 318 and 360 from the 1995 and up truck series generation of motors.
a lot of us have been using them for swaps.
cheers
@@richardholdener1727 I and several others apreciate your work, showing what works and not when upgrading parts. When you took a crate sbc then swapped cam, intake and vortec heads and got big numbers. Your 360 a real underdog, cam, intake and ported heads, impressive numbers too.
Why do people ask, "why didn't you use a better engine?", when he repeatedly told us why he used crap [with POTENTIAL] as a starting point??? Keep showing us what to do when we DON'T have our pick/unlimited budget Richard!!!
spraying the old oil from the oil change onto parts that can rust, is a vary cheep way to make the car or truck last longer. the little bit of rust that the oil finds, will stick good to the ruff structure of rust.
I find it entertaining that he used a Ford 302 to compete with a chevy 350 and a Dodge 360 😂😂😂. Dodge has a 318 and Chevy has a 305. It's a good thing he didn't compare those against the 302 😂🤣😂🤣😂 I'm sorry, but in this era, Ford DOMINATED the competition. This should have been a Ford 351 vs Chevy 350vl vs Dodge 360! Even though the 351's vs the 302's wasn't a huge difference it still attests to Ford's superiority over the competition 😊. True haters comment. True enthusiasts just like 👍
Yeeaah.. the Ford pushrods dominated. And I'm pretty sure it's due to the port locations and orientation. Ford's being all evenly spaced and the competition were not, that spacing allowed for better flow.. circle back, the 351 is still a viable option for a build against the LS, I still believe we need to be able to build up mod motors now. A built 6.2 ford vs an LS 6.2….
ill have to agree 100percent.
Stock 351W are generally underwhelming. Spend a fair amount on it and then it will go ok.BUT 351W and 400M,, 3" dia mains so dont rev them too hard.
I don't that was his goal. To compare each together. Think.. he just picked 3 popular small blocks and tested each with bolt ons. Not to see which was better.
it was not a contest-just three starter motors I happen to run
I don’t have much mechanical background but I’ve always been one of the other guys at heart haha I’ve got a 350 sbc cherry and I’ve done some very minor upgrades like the air filter frequent oil changes spark plugs wires cap and rotor very basic stuff anyone know where to start for some more basic but intermediate engine upgrades just looking for the right place to start really
In the process of putting a re ringed 5.9 magnum into my dart. Cheap and able to improve greatly.
Mr. Holdener, someday could you do a Cost VS Power analysis of engines built since 1990???
It would be cool to see just what you could expect to get for $1500 or $2000 plus a junkyard engine.
I imagine you could do this with data you already have.
I'm pretty sure I know who the best and worst are...........poor Ford 4 valves, ya can't even change the cams for 1500.
The 350 manifolds were C4 corvette stainless, I've mig welded a couple sets. Log manifolds would of been maybe about 10-15hp less. I'm surprised the mild port 882's did so well
Yeah, those c4 manifolds aren't too bad as everyone says they are. It think Lingerfelt said they were decent in one of his books. Much better then the logs that came on the 3rd gen f body cars.
@@mcqueenfanman I think its cause they only really fit corvettes is why you don't hear much bout them. I always hear LT1 manifolds are the best but I've never seen them compared to these. Be a cool shoot-out, I'd also toss in 2.5" ramhorns & an aftermarket block hugger shorty.
cast manifolds don't make 10-hp less
I like to think that I am a one of the otherguys that is why I am rebuilding a 331 HEMI Chrysler Fire Power for my 46 Chevy Drift Truck on my channel
That's a very unique build
Richard what "small cam" did you use on the 350 chevy build? 422 foot pounds is pretty impressive from the rest of the combo. Love the videos. Like other have said do a 318 dodge video. Thanks
think it was a 218
I would love to see a video of just the cam timing advanced 2 then 4 degrees to see what the difference is
Would love to see you build a 9 to 1 351 Windsor for a truck that pulls
They put out decent power when built up but you will still get more power out of the 350s because there are better performance parts available.
Had an 88 iroc-z ,5.7 corvette tpi v8 stock rating of 230 hp
Grats on 100k,
Thanks!
i have an 02 dodge ram 1500 with the 360 engine and i would love to build the most powerful 360 that will run on 87. its fuel injected and I'm not sure on what my tuning options are if i start building this engine.
I'd be interested to see chassis dyno results where nothing is done to engine, only drivetrain changes.
Put some flat tops in the 360 and some Trickflow 190s on it not eddelbrock and it'll rock that chevy.
No it won't. I'm a Mopar fan but even I know the 5.9L/360 can't hang with the 350s. 5.9/360s are dog motors and there aren't nearly as many performance parts available for the 5.9/360 as there is the 5.7/350
@@tskraj3190 bull fucking shit bud. mopar head design is FAR better than a sbc. raised exhaust ports, 23 degree valves, etc...360 beats a 350 every time. hell, a 351w beats a 350 chevy every time.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 😆😆😆😆😆 I haven't laughed that hard in a long time!!! Thanks for that.
@Jackson P. Storm While your laughing, I'm laughing at the fact that I'm still driving my Chevy trouble free while you're pushing your Ford. 😆
@Jackson P. Storm Ok ... towed your Fords. Big difference.
We wrote back and forth before I'm the Mopar Nut from Vermont "THE VERMONSTER" thank you for this demo question I heard that the 360 cylinder head 1988 1989 I believe this was claimed to be the best head factory set up please write back let me know thanks BUB
I have no idea about the best factory 360 head
Ask Uncle Tony’s Garage
Now, do the same with the sbc 267 motor. no guts, no glory and lots of potential with more cam. ported heds and dual plane intake on it. choose something like Roller cam ( 212 /216 ) that will fit under stock heads. like maybe valve lift of .485 . Back in the day if I was blessed with it ratherthan the 305 ( which got a Cam Dynamics cam with an operating range of 2200 to6500 ) the actual cam specs I have long ago forgotten. sure woke up the 305 and surely would have done the same with a 267. And by 267 I mean the one that was offered between '79 and '81 . 3.48 stroke, 3.50 bore.
@Jackson P. Storm If I had the opportunity to build one. That is pretty much how I would do it as well. I may be a bit overboard on the 222@050 cam. but hey, i've done wilder in a 305 and got away with it. As for a lot of the publications, they see its a 120Horse motor and scoff at it because they don't see the challenge in it.
Would love to see a Jeep 4.0 inline 6 built
I put a "starter motor " $50 110hp 260 Olds in my Cutlass, looking to at least double the factory HP with two turbos! Have you tested any of the small v8s? Under 300ci?
only 289s so far
I have a question i have a 302 in my ranger from a 87 truck, the piston has valve reliefs. Is this stock or after market because it also has some sort of pretty aggresive cam
300 inline 6 next?👍👍👍
Why are the pistons in the Chevy motor installed upside down?
Another excellent video!
I still wish you could do a 318 chrysler. Dime a dozen and I've made good horse power with cam intake and a little grinding on the heads.
A 351w would have been a better "apples to apples" than the 302 vs 350vs 360.
I'd like to see a ford v ford shootout with 352 (or 360) FE vs 351W vs 351C vs 351 clevor ! Then stroke each to 4.00". Add good heads and.... boost!
don t understand why you did t use a 351 w or 351 m or 351 c for the FORD build lots of 2vs around
Wish you could do a vid on a 396 Chevy rat engine or a destroked 454 with a 396 crank to a 427.
I have a 427 build vid coming (have not run a 396-hard to find)
@@richardholdener1727 my son is probably gonna buy a 396 from the machine shop we use for a 1988 Chevy truck. Truck = heavy... Big Block = torque to move heavy.. lol😂😂😂
Wanna see what you could do with an AMC 360 from the 80s
Richard please do a 180 degree header test , they sound exotic when done right .
hard to fit in the dyno
are those 40 over pistons in that 302? I'm a mopar guy and 360's are cool but me I would rather have the 318 I have made big power with those engines and many think they are the throw away engine and want the 360 over the 318 but I like proving people wrong and take a 318 and build a little power house out of it.
I have to see potential in junkyard engines because that’s all I can afford. 😄
What's the compression ratio of the 350 with the AFR heads? 10:1?
yes-near that
So will a big cam and head 360 Chrysler make 550hp like the Chevy?
@Richard Holdener can I put hypereutectic flat top pistons in my stock 400 small chevy and get away with not having it rebalanced? I know it’s not ideal but is it really the end of the world that guys say it is? Talking razor blade rebuild. Thanks for the great videos.
As far as I was told from my machinist you can do it if you keep it under 5k rpms
depends on how far off they are compared to what came out
What about Buick 215/Rover v8? Cheap lightweigt v8 that alot of people use in Europe.
do a 318
I would have rather seeing a comparison with closer CID engines like the 351W Ford , 360 Dodge , and 350 Chevy or a baby V8 of the Big 3 ...... 302 Ford , 318 Dodge , and a 307 Chevy
cool stuff,but i still wanna see some y block stuff
FE first.