Games Without End & New Game Plus
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มี.ค. 2024
- I talk about my thoughts on designing games that do not end when you finish the main story line as well as games with new game plus features.
You might want to watch this video too:
Implementing Endgame Slides: • Implementing Endgame S... - เกม
It is funny how much of Tim's advice comes down to "if you want to succeed, you need to plan for this feature/mechanic early"
its not necessary for success, but if you have "everything" planned from the beginning it can be noticed how separate things come together during the game session, and anyone who pays attention will appreciate the details
VTMB taught him that
how many games I have seen where the devs have deliberately undermined their own planning/mechanics once it became inconvenient, or hastily added something in that felt like an afterthought, like a NG+ where they just added +x levels to everything with a script...
And yet people STILL don't do it
@@Anonymous8421 too much work, they want to make another flappy bird/amongus/vampire survivor so they dont have to put actual effort into it and just harvest money
On the subject of going back to a town that hasn't reacted to you winning the game: I really like how the first Dragon Quest gives you the opportunity to walk back to the starting town after beating the Dragonlord. All the poison is now flowers, and everybody in every town is super happy that you won.
I am so sorely tempted to isolate Tim rolling his eyes saying, "... I'll explain why..." at the tip beginning of the video to use as a hotkey'd reaction on Twitch.
Also “Munny” clip
There is so much you can compile , many thumbnails are pure meme potential and stuff like 'Thanks Windows' a running joke at this point
@@malik740 Probably.
There's a mod for New Vegas that lets you play past the end, it even makes changes that reflect who you sided with, but all it really does is underline why the game ending was the right choice, without a lot of post game content you're left wandering a empty dead world, instead of the game ending on a high it just sort of peters out.
Lets hope this mod is playable with the hd realese
Hey i loved the empty world of vegas
The Blade Runner game (from 1997) randomises the targets each time you play, for detective games it sounds like a perfect option.
Considering the constraints it was under during development, Morrowind really nailed the feeling of becoming the hero after finishing the game. You'll get a big boost to disposition with all NPCs and new greetings are added to show characters worshipping you as the prophesied reincarnation of one of their people's founding figures. Haven't quite seen something like that in any other crafted RPG experience. Only other games that come to mind are more sandboxy procedural titles where you write the story through your own actions, like the Mount & Blade games.
As for new game plus, I can't really see how you could really implement that well in RPGs, but that's probably just because I'm not creative enough, certainly someone will do it some day. It's great for more linear and mechanically complex games like immersive sims, with Dishonored 2 being arguably even more fun on subsequent playthroughs where you can start with all abilities, unlocking whole new playstyles and paths through the levels only really limited by your own skill and imagination.
People replay Rpgs to see the different narrative choice results
New game plus has existed in JRPGS for a while. The Persona series starting from 3 onwards has had this as a core feature. To 100% social links and max out your "summoning" compendium you would have to do a new game + usually. Also secret boss fights that test the player or higher difficulties are locked behind new game + as well in those titles.
Honestly, NG+ in RPGs can tie into removing level cap as a reward for playing the intended way and then basically handing the car keys to the player after. You can always make a new character to experience the intended design after and then just have constant NG+ cycles for the sake of leveling endlessly
The witcher 3 is one of the many RPG's with new game plus, its simple to implement, you start a new game with the levels, equipment and items that your old game had.
@@TheJpf79 thats the minimum viable ng+, i see people overthinking it and try to make levels increase and balance another game basically from that point. I just want to pwn everything with op character but those balanced designs ruin that. I think thats why I never replayed mass effect games.
I'd love a "New" Game+ that starts in the usual spot, but as you continue to explore familiar locations you start to piece together changes that reveal the outcome of minor and major decisions. Theoretically this kind of project would probably be best suited for Sandbox/Immersive RPGs where traditional writing is minimal.
I think a "hub" based RPG without full voice acting could pull off that trick with enough new content to fill the entire original campaign. For instance if you have a "first town" the devs could write 3 version of the dialogs and quests for the population, once you finish the game and load that automated last save to restart the adventure (or continue forward), depending on the ending for that town, it would fire up the specific version of that town you will revisit. Again I am speaking about writing alone, not environment changes and whatnot.
@@PointReflex or more simply, a Roguelite.
Mr. Tim,
Could you tell us some more about your pen and paper rpg experiences? Things you learned as a DM?
Since there's a lot of cross-over between role-playing game design and video games?
Ive liked the stories he has told so far about that. More sounds fun.
Well, the main difference between ttRPG and cRPG is that in ttRPG the GM usually seeks to usurp the position of god, while in cRPG the GM is totally dead... or at least he certainly should be.
I found the new game+ in Armored Core 6 interesting, unlocking new levels, choices, and even a new ending after new game++. I know NieR: Automata does something similar but I've never played it myself. Love your videos Tim
Yes, I really liked this NG+ design. It's a "what if this event had gone differently?", where the events are things that are usually out of the player's control.
I personally wouldn't call the other endings in the Nier games an ng+. It's less of another playthrough and more just the entire second half of the game.
@@uriel7395until you realize casuals font care to see the rest of the story when the game pulls an unprecedented trick and has you replay it again. Its done for most of them already.
Fallout (2) let you keep playing, I even remember a hidden book that leveled everything up so you could go and do anything you might have missed.
*picks the book up from the reno wedding guy* well *this* would have been useful to have found earlier in the game
And interestingly enough, it makes sense that most of the world doesn't react to you defeating the big bad, since most of the world wasn't really aware of the threat that was the Enclave.
Yeah and in my current replays i already have my postgame planned out.
I'm not selling the excavator chip, i'm keeping it for myself. Vic kept shooting me early game so i sentenced him to eternal slavery in Cassidy Mine (who died fighting the wannamingo queen).
My current char is super rich and greedy, being my first in 25 years to ever exploit the gambling perk.
Sunless Sea had a version of new game plus where you could unlock legacies you could pass down to your next captain, but most of them were very limited and you only got to pick one of them.
For example the map is usually procedurally generated, but you could pass down a map and it wouldn't generate a new map for that run.
Several of the legacies were hard to unlock so they were more like challenge runs and involved going through multiple entire questlines.
For a game made up mostly of small quests, this helped provide a sense of purpose and also made it more replayable.
This is also an in between solution that I wish more games did (just for ease of use)... After the final ending asking if the player wants to reset to back just before the end sequence. That way new assets don't need to be created for "playing after the end" but it gives an easy path to playing through any missed side quests. This allows me to 100% the game when I just want to hang out in the game world longer -- usually after I let the need to finish and see the ending push me into finishing before doing everything else :)
It feels like old games used to do this more and I miss it (as I'm a bit compulsive on games I'm enjoying and really want to at least try to 100% them unless I really don't enjoy some of the activities/side quests/challenges/whatever)
Horizon Zero Dawn did this, and people were generally unhappy or confused with it. Then the sequel let you play past the ending rather than revert to before.
Cyberpunk 2077 does this too. After you finish the game, you can either go to the main menu or return to the world before the final mission (you keep all the rewards you receive on the final mission). And people are generally alright with this, at least in the Cyberpunk community. There is a running joke between the fans that Hanako is forever stuck at Embers waiting for you.
before watching: I'd _love_ a NG+ mode in cRPG's like Pillars of Eternity. You feel a bit snubbed when you've meticulously planned out a build, and when it's finished, there's hardly any content left to unleash it on. I actually did this with mods in PoE2, scaled the whole game up to max, and gave myself all the gear and XP to replicate my builds from the start. The game still wasn't quite up for it though ;)
Oh, another thing I'd love in RTwP cRPGs: The possibility to watch a finished battle in real time. After you've defeated an encounter, you can click a button to see the real time replay. Would mesh well with today's sharing culture too.
I'm not a game designer, just a lifelong gamer, mate your videos are always thought provoking and relaxing.
From a guy lying in bed right now with covid nuking me, stuff like this is getting me through it,.
I hope you feel better soon
One remark about characters growing up indefinitely: In Darklands, you could age and that would damage your stats. If you go that way, you could even die of old age. That requires long times however, where most games don't track your character age.
Hey Tim, it's us everyone (sorry) I really love the insight you give on this channel and I hope dev's are watching too. Thank you for the 100's of hours of joy in your games.
It's already mentioned multiple times in the comments but it's true: Chrono Trigger. Easily best example of New Game + I've played in my lifetime. SO many endings, many of which are dependent on NG+.
Playing past level cap depends on when the player hits it. If the player can game the system before the main story plays out then its broken. But if the player is left in a 'completed' world then level cap doesn't really matter. There shouldn't be a problem with a walking god beating up goblins in a cave or bandits in a camp after the main story is solved. The game designer has done their part and its up to the player if thy choose to screw around beyond it. Perhaps one solution to prevent premature gods is have the leveling capped. But once the big bad is gone the player is unchained. If the player wants to persist in the post game world that's fine. But if the story is open ended enough the player would be encouraged to go back and play a different route. Perhaps even having the player unchained at the end might allow the player to experiment on different forms of combat so when they go back through the game they'll spec themselves into something they'll really enjoy.
When it comes to roguelikes they basically randomize every run and aren't restricted to traditional game design. It's pretty unique how slay the spire handles progress for each character to unlock harder modifiers after each win but also there's a separate non random daily challenge. It keeps the same modifiers and seed for the run for the day, and it does check with a time server so you can't just cheese it with windows time.
The fact that it locks the seed means we do get to explore alternative paths and see just how much is dependent on the seed (cards and enemies are the same no matter which path, only the floor matters)
As someone who loves crafting in games, the only NG+ feature I have ever cared about was in Dragon Age: Inquisition, it shared any crafting schematics you've ever found across all your playthroughs. I love it because a) it's a way of giving me the *option* to have gear that's OP for my level (but not too OP based on which crafting resources are accessible earlier in the game), so fights are usually easier to beat, without completely taking away the other experiences of leveling up, and b) some schematics are quest specific, and some quests are mutually exclusive, so I think it's funny to have an item during the other quests that I technically shouldn't have.
I absolutely love this channel by an absolute legend sharing his wisdom and experience. Keep it up Tim!
The main thing I love about these videos are Tim's insights based on his personal experiences as a developer and on his time in the industry in general.
Another thing I love though is hearing him suggest things and thinking "hey! I think someone somewhere did something like that!"
The interactive art medium we call "gaming" is so vast and I don't think we're even close to getting everything out of it yet.
It might be interesting to know, that after people asked me over and over again I recently implemented a way to continue playing Bloodlines after the end if you survived. But as Tim stated correctly, without new dialogues I can only do so much, so important NPCs won't say anything new and of course I had to lock off some of them in the first place.
Thank you for your work, your mod breathe life into this game to this day.
It'd be cool if a few select NPC's in new game plus could remember that all of the events had already happened. If somehow the resetting of the story was like a strange, in-game occurence that introduced time travel elements. You'd be chugging along doing the same stuff that you already did the first time, but then out of nowhere some NPC would be like "why is this happening again?" or "I had a dream all of this already occured". It doesn't need to be anything major, just small episodes here and there where people seem to become vaguely aware that they are stuck in a time loop. Or maybe the villain is using new game plus to bring himself back to life and he comments on it on each subsequent run.
I generally like a NG+ feature, especially if it's more considered than just "now you can play through the campaign again with your endgame character." Like in a game where you have classes, do like Mass Effect where you can play as another class, but borrow a skill from the class you beat the game with (if it's a pretty rigid class/skill system).
Alternatively, I like what the Souls games or a few other JRPGs do, where NG+ is a loop through a powered up version of the previous campaign. Tougher enemies, different obstacles, etc.
I won't really get too far into it, but Nier Automata basically requires you to play through the campaign twice (as each of the main characters) before you get the rest of the story... which would be a bigger drag if they didn't make the two main characters play so differently, and if the payoff wasn't so good. That doesn't feel as much like a NG+ as most of the other games with it do, though.
This is the most interesting video you have made yet! Thank you!
Starfield had a really interesting take on New Game+ it just wasn't fleshed out enough. Would have loved more dialogue bits that react to the fact your character knows whats going to happen. Especially if they could change the story more drastically than it did.
I'm glad you addressed this, it helped me think about how to do it with my own games. I LOVE open-ended games (it's actually one of the few things I don't like about your games), I love living in the world I helped to change, but it presents some really interesting challenges.
I like the way some games have tackled it, like Dragon's Dogma, but I have some better ideas I'm eager to try.
I really liked the way that dark souls 2 did ng+. By adding new items and encounters exclusive to ng+ it incentivised me to replay it and have a lot of fun doing it. I may have gotten 100+ extra hours of enjoyment out of the game because of this.
There's a new game called Withering Rooms that I recently fell in love with, and it has an interesting approach to NG+. The player will end up with one of three endings, but none of them completely resolve the conflict. NG+ is actually incorporated into the story as a way to let the main character try again to fully fix things, so it adds a new fourth ending. Problem is, this ending is accessible like 15% of the way through the game, beyond which there's no reason to play.
They added a few new monsters in NG+, an accessory that makes the game harder, and bunch of new equipment to earn, but even if you wanted to ignore the new ending and keep playing anyway, it's kinda pointless because there is a level cap and diminishing returns before you hit it. There's also a companion creature you can unlock with its own customization and upgrade system, but you only unlock it just before the ending, so there's no opportunity to use it. Same thing with the new equipment -- so much of it is locked behind completing the bestiary in NG+, after which you have literally nothing to do anymore.
It's just a super interesting case, imho. Fantastic game (go check it out!) but it's kinda tragic how they put sooo much effort into the NG+ mode, only to have it hamstrung by a few poor choices.
NG+ is under-explored in modern AAA space. Some of these games with collectathons would feel really different if instead of doing 4 hours of grinding out different things at the end of the game you could just start at the beginning, with your good stuff, and collect them while exploring the game’s narrative again, fighting bosses again or doing quests different ways, and actually playing enjoyable content not just “now to mop up the last of my riddler trophies while I listen to a podcast.”
I appreciate the willingness to caveat advice with, "it depends"
If you were feeling it, I'd love to see that full video on NG+. It's one of my favourite RPG features and more insight from you would be great.
Dishonored 2 and Death of the Outsider both had new powers available in NG+. All powers were available in Dishonored 2, instead of just your character's power set. Love that series.
My favourite take on new game plus is when it ties directly into narrative like Dark Souls where the player is essentially trapped in an endless cycle of civilizations rising and falling over and over and each run has slight changes to enemy placement or loot drops.
does it though ? i remember ng+ feeling the same , except maybe key items resetting.
@@yourstruly5013dark souls 2 does it best
This is one of the only good things starfield did
@1:29 AFAIK there is only one Fallout 4 DLC that takes this approach, Far Harbor.
@9:38 Final Fantasy X has a New Game Plus mechanic, you can go over 100% completion and take a different route. It is less rewarding than getting 100% completion first try which is difficult because even the guide you can find only doesn't explain every detail. Overlook one detail that triggers another event and you will never achieve it, whereas on a New Game Plus save game the amount of extra percentage points is so generous that you probably won't fail.
4:19 genuinely LOL'd at this
if you see this, I'm interested in your take on it. I've never seen this in a game and not sure if anyone tried it.
one ng+ idea I've seen in a manga was a character reset the world so many times they were no longer themselves, lost all of their powers, ended up as the bad guy they had defeated, and were now competing against their past self to reset the world for some "perfect" end in which everyone they cared for survived but each time they reset they lost more of what made them who they were so they were more willing to engage in evil acts to accomplish their goals.
Without spoiling it, there's a movie called Timecrimes (2007) that sort of plays on this.
@@HerbertFilby interesting, i shall check it out
@@scp2539 Caveat though, I think it's Spanish so it'll be subtitled, and there are some triggers at first glance if you're sensitive to that stuff, it's Rated R, but I will tell you that it all makes sense by the end and isn't what it seems. Just a heads up.
Sounds way too complicated, theres a reason story altering resets or reversals are very rare. Dont think anone exected the Nier Automata to have multiple parts based on how many times you played it.
@@635574 it was complicated, the manga was very confusing XD
Great video mate. I agree with you about the aliens (and the rest).
Leveling based stat/skill points, in addition to their primary use, can be used as a special shop currency, expended in the process of enchanting/powering of magical items or abilities, used to "rebuild" your character/s, perhaps as a key to access an infinite dungeon or its chests, or to rerun a completed dungeon. Exp and level ups have been used as a resource since early arcades, and if you look at them like that you can easily come up with endless use cases that will last long after your well balanced build system is maxed out.
Playing past the end of the game is something that needs a lot of planning as a high level character might very quickly exhaust content because most of the world isn't setup for high level adventuring, and then you need to spend time on adding high level encounters and spend even more time trying to balance things for the wildly different high level builds the players might have. NG+ has the same sorts of problems. The concept of a low level area doesn't make much sense in ng+ if it needs to scale to the level of an endgame character. Though there is something to be said of just letting a high level player steamroll through everything in NG+ for fun. It's a bit like playing with cheats but the game says it's ok. it's a nice bonus for a player who wants to replay for the story/atmosphere and doesn't want to have to deal with annoyance of low level gameplay where you miss and fail more than you hit
Thanks for answering my question. In part I was thinking about new game plus because I had just played a game where money carried over and the second time through meant that things I had to save or grind for the first time through were now handed to he on a silver platter. Which was a bit unsatisfying. I've played others which unlock harder difficulties justifying the need for carrying things over or ones that unlock new endings you can't get the fist time but otherwise it feels like there is plenty of room for new concepts.
That said your ideas here sound interesting and I for one would love a video where you focused on this even if it is entirely theoretical.
diablo 2 did new game plus very good. The game is 95% about gameplay and gameplay really changes from normal, to ng+ (nightmare), to ng++(hell, the game mode, not location). There're almost several types of games inside the game, and that's awesome
The best approach to this in my opinion is the Yakuza series' premium adventure mode. It allows you to play in a version of the game world where the main quest doesn't exist and you can clean up all the side content you missed. It allows a definitive ending while not annoying the player by having the main quest be perpetually unfinished (Something I despise about the open world Zeldas).
Nier: Replicant does this well by expanding the story. On subsequent playthrough the enemy language is translated and it takes a completely new meaning and on the 3rd or 4th playthrough with the knowledge of everything you have to delete your save and completely end the game. They did a similar thing with Nier: Automata but that first time blew me away
There is also games, that use a Rogue Lite formula that also has a narrative. Everspace 1 is an example of that. The missions and narrative progression persist after death, but the player restarts in the gameworld from the beginning. However, the player can keep credits collected and invest those progressively to new perks, and skills, so new starts are getting easier and the starting area can be quickly bypassed. To keep the gameworld fresh, it has a mix of handcrafted and procedural arrangement of areas, and certain locations only appearing after a few deaths. Overall its pretty much a neverending singleplayer game (unless you count unlocking all narrative parts the game end).
I really like your take on New Game Plus. The idea of the game locking certain features behind a completely play through would be really interesting. You see a bunch of games that have character classes or races that they have to insert the warning of "this meant for advanced players" and you could circumvent that entirely by not even allowing that class/race of character to be chosen until the player has shown they know enough about the base game to be able to complete it once.
regarding the wacky wasteland idea, bastion did this with stuff like one of the turrets from Portal being purchasable from the shop as a summonable companion
I liked the witcher3 NG+ that super cool endgame gear becomes the starter gear, your exp and potions are there but the entire game scales to your new start point. Basic early game monsters are now... proper monsters. Some of the highest end skill combos need 2 playthroughs worth of skill points to get to though you do get a bit OP.
I've always prefered games being highly replayable rather than "infinite content" or NG+.
Here's a question!
Older games like Fallout and Arcanum had character progression system put combat and non-combat skills on the same field. At the same time these systems tried to realistically represent character traits. E.g. Intellect meant in-universe smarts of the character. Compare it to most RPGs where Intelligence isn't supposed to reflect character's smarts but magical ability, charismatic characters are not necessary prominent, and as a whole characters are defined by their fighting style with some added social skills on top that serve to skip combat. Even in a game like Pillars of Eternity 2 where you can evade most conflicts your character is defined by a class, and every class is a killing machine. Are roleplaying systems like Fallout or Arcanum failed experiments? Is designing an RPG where systems are fully interconnected a fool's errand?
the money hand motion @2:55 is extremely memeable
that scene is going to be someones twitch emote someday
I prefer having a new game plus that doesn't have things you need to unlock. The soulsbourne series is extremely minimal with its new game pluses (they just change enemy stats and the amount of souls you get when you kill them) and I'm fine with stuff like that. Generally after I beat a game and see the credits my motivation to keep playing plummets so hearing about how some games add exclusive benefits and things that tell you you have to be in new game plus to use sounds really frustrating, I'd rather take advantage of them in new game where I'm more motivated to play. What really exhausts me is when there is a postgame, most games that do that tend to set up the postgame like a surprise or give you an ending with loose ends hanging intentionally, but I feel like it's just an extra grind either way and the best way to have your cake and eat it too is to just do the normal thing and end the game when the credits roll.
New Game + would be a great mechanic for a parallel universe/across time narrative with a solid ending. Imagine you play a game to an end then restart but your choices in previous run affects your new game. Its a different branching strategy.........good luck testing that though 😂
I think the Japanese have pretty much mastered NG+ as a concept, and all you say can be found in most games that feature NG+ there. It's a bit unfortunate that most people's experience of NG+, seem to be soulslikes, which does NG+ the worst (only increasing difficulty while maintaining your progress).
I really liked Duel Saviour's NG+, you start with 2 routes being available, once you finish both, you unlock another 2, which will gives progressively more lore, but also adds more questions to the lore. Then by the last route (5th or 6th, I can't remember), all the lose threads are basically answered, as the last route is kind of an accumilation of all the routes happening simultaniously (in-universe, there is no such thing as NG+ though, it is only for the players 'benefit').
Also liked Way of the Samurai 4's NG+, which is as you say. You do some events in the game, and the outcome of these events persist in the other playtroughs.
The first instance I ever saw of New Game+ might still be the best I've ever seen, and that was Chrono Trigger. You start at the beginning with all levels, most gear (some storyline stuff is removed), and it gives you the ability to run through the game lightning fast but also added in something like 20 more endings because you were strong enough to beat the last boss already. So depending when you did it you got totally different endings. More recently I appreciated how Armored Core 6 handled it where more new content came in each playthrough that was usually quite tough and showed more or different story.
Hey Tim, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on "Hazing Ritual" encounter design/"Trolling the player" with cheap-shots in RPGs? Aside from the infamous early game Bandit Ambush random-encounter in the OG Baldur's Gate, there's been a lot of talk in my social-circles this past week concerning a recently released action-RPG, where mid-game an ambush is placed near a town's Class-Change/Respec NPC, which ejects the player's entire party and forces them to duel the ambusher without preparation - Resulting in a scenario where many who've mentioned going through it were playing a non-melee class that was immediately stunlocked until the fight was scripted to end (Of which, ironically, they went to this location to switch to a melee class).
- Would you consider it to be "bad practice" for a game to engage in deliberately placing the player in stacked/guaranteed-loss scenarios through arbitrary-means (Be it through RNG or a sudden "altering the deal" in the game's rules), or rather *in general* said recently-released-ARPG's tendency towards "Trolling the player"?
There should be a way through. You see this sort of thing in TRPGs pretty frequently (assuming no perma-death). The party gets put in an apparently unwinnable situation usually for narrative reasons. However, many also have a way to win--it's just dependent on knowing the game mechanics very well indeed. Whether it's from positioning, party composition, or simply perfectly executing the fight (or all of the above--looking at Vandal Hearts here), there still should be a way through.
There are 2 big points for me about post game content:
One is the problem that I have with the end slides. Which is that they're done in a different medium than the game proper. Namely, the game is interactive, the ending slides are not.
That difference for me is enough to not care. I don't care if I do the bad thing in game if it makes me more powerful/is more fun because the disconnect in media means that the consequences aren't real to me.
I will always pick Primm Slim as the Sherriff of Primm because I don't care about the non-interactive slideshow that says: "that is bad".
Another big point is that the free roaming tag on a game is largely something that rebels against the norms of linear design so, unless there is a specific reason like player character death, I don't see a reason to include a fundamental aspect of linear design i.e. game ending stopping continued gameplay.
Fallout 3 and New Vegas compared to Brutal Legend for its "affects on the world" or Mass Effect 2 compared to its contemporaries for its full utilization of free roaming as opposed to linear are both good exaples of this.
I think...
As a player, I really don't like locked features. There are some exceptions, like when car games lock certain cars for the progression. I never knew how to feel about that. I still wonder how those games could've been without that. But for the most part, I think locked features are just choices that might have been fun to experiment with. And then they're also feature I may never get to play with, because I may not even re-play the game at all. Or I may never feel like playing the game in whatever way is required to unlock those features.
Most NG+ modes I've come across just up the difficulty level but sometimes also add new enemy movesets and other challenges. I also like games that are made around NG+ like the Nier series or the first Dead Rising
A compromise i like is where games go back before the final mission but let you keep your rewards from it
Yeah there are a lot of things i've been thinking a lot and since i'm making a FO4 mod set in Rome, is something really focus me on giving the right concept, despite is just a hobby and not a real job since no one is paying me for do that. What route must be done, always cause a high study for the ballance and not ruin the experience. Is very challenging but also a hard study to avoid mistakes and eventual errors.
I am trying to get the vase from the shopkeep that didn't give AF about someone that beat the big bad.....they must have seen some stuff.
I feel like the main thing Id want a New Game Plus in an RPG to do is track what sidequests I did in previous runs, what choices I made, what locations I never visited etc. but this doesn't seem common. I don't necessarily remember everything I've done before when actively playing but I might realize I've locked myself into repeating some exclusive decision path over again too late...as in repeating myself making one choice and missing other content and only remembering too late.
Though not a huge problem as I've never spent enough time on one game for it to be, when I do a new run in a game like New Vegas I have a habit of repeating myself
I can't believe there are people who criticize Fallout 1 and Fallout New Vegas for actually ending. I'd rather finish an RPG wanting more, not because I'm sick of playing it. That's why Fallout 3 and 4 ended on a sour note for me. When I think about them, I have no desire to subject myself to that kind of endless, solipsistic skinner box gameplay again. When I think about Fallout 1, Fallout 2, and Fallout New Vegas, on the other hand, I get excited thinking about playing them again.
One of the things this video once again highlighted for me was your focus on delivering narrative, and not just games. Have you ever been tempted to explore that talent outside of game development? E.g. speculative fiction or other forms of writing?
thank you king !
I know this community doesn't consider souls games rpgs but one thing i like about ng+ in them is that besides letting you use your character on harder versions of the enemies you can do the story with the other factions you got locked out of with the same character.
This triggered a random thought: a RTS/construction style game centered around using the GECK to rebuild Arroyo would be super cool.
One of the best NG+ I've seen was Bastion. I won't say why :)
You can also design player-levels as a finite progression, that stops intentionally before the game ending. Basically the player defines how the characters skillset is over a limited number of levels. After that the progression comes mainly from improvements from acquired equipment and minor perks that can be upgraded over time. Enough games are fun even without further character development, but applying the skill and playing the mechanics itself. Exploring and doing quests.
Games will have a natural end, when the content "dries up" anyhow. But meta mechanics, like playing the game economy, having a building system or having some political influence could extend that a lot.
I absolutely agree that if game is made with new game plus mode, its mechanics should be designed around that, but it absolutely should be communicated with player. One game designed around idea of playing the game two or three times with same set of characters, but doesn't properly communicate that to player is Wasteland 2. It tells your skill challenge targets, that were often impossible on first play thru and that almost turned me off from the game completely because failing at almost everything is so much fun and so rewarding.
Hey Sir, love your videos! My first episode of a Fallout Friday Podcast is releasing today at Noon EST, and I mention you and Arcanum quite a bit in addition to Fallout, and left a link to your channel and your video, I hope that's alright! I look forward to your videos, and you are welcome on the podcast as an honored guest anytime you'd like, hope your next piece of chocolate is mind blowing!- Tiki
Bethesda sort of dipped their toes into what you said about new game plus with Starfield, but man did they not commit fully. Honestly level cap removal and things like this should really be kept for a post game/NG+ scenario. Treat it like a “okay, you did it our way, now do it your way” kind of deal. Same reason I love sequence breaking. Letting the player go ham should be the end game reward. Some games even do optional NG+ where you start it when you want and the biggest change is really some stats and enemy patterns.
How would you approach a game without an end? Like an MMO where there are periodic releases/expansions that keep it going.
Hi Tim, it's us, everyone.
I've sort of wanted for a while a system that instead of level advancement where stats increase, you have a list of capabilities that broadens as you gain experience or whatever, gaining new ways to solve puzzles or ways to fight enemies, types of infiltration or personal interaction are awarded or trained by the player character. You can have encounters throughout the world that are tougher than the player character, or weaker, but things are already balanced because PC stats don't increase, player knowledge of systems and player character capabilities increase. You could have a post main story with challenging and easy encounters just like before without worrying about level caps.
What possible pitfalls would such a system have, do you think? I can imagine some people who go into an RPG-like game expecting to increase stats and maybe grind to get by an encounter that's too hard might hate the idea that there is no way to do that, but I imagine there might be solutions to every tough encounter if a player picks up on environmental and lore clues, or gains new abilities, for example. An endgame character is likely to have at least some of the toolkit necessary to revisit old encounters, in a similar way to a leveled character, only there are more options. Maybe it'd be a QA nightmare if there are too many options?
I would love to see an NG cycle that changed the BBEG or item locations. I know Dark Souls 2 did a thing with NG+ where Duke's Dear Freya will run into you earlier than their boss fight which was cool and DS3 has NG+ and NG++ specific upgraded items in new locations but something that feels like an almost parallel world would be brilliant.
Armored core 6 does this
@@flymanwind9446 thats rad. Its on my wishlist to play soon too
My brother is in the planning stage for an rpg that involved some factions that have fights at points in the story and the player can either choose to influence them or let them play out
First play through will have a difined way that it'll happen assuming no player interaction but ng+ would make them all random
With cases like this where it comes down to "it depends", I feel like it's worth asking -- what're some favorite and least favorite examples of NG+?
(And that question goes for everyone in theses comments, not just Tim!)
It seems to me that often playing after the ending is considered a "bonus" and added interactivity is just sort of a little plus and not completely expected. That it is seen as a way to wrap up loose ends like unfinished side quests with out having to start a new game.
And I am fine with that.
I just finished 100% Infinite Wealth and actually felt a little sad I don’t have a reason to go back apart from seeing the cut scenes again.
I’m max level, all jobs maxed with almost everything unlocked.
I’m a walking god. So I do understand putting restrictions in place as it would give me more reasons to play again.
Actually this week i discovered that Tyranny has sort of New Game+
so yeah.. you kinda did do it Tim :P
Hi Tim,
I have a question about funding games. I often advise people to be cautious about pre-ordering games, and especially about donating large sums to Kickstarter or similar crowdfunding campaigns.
In my opinion, there are other funding options available for game development. If developers are struggling to secure funding through traditional channels, it might be a sign that investors are hesitant about the project's viability. In such cases, it's worth considering why someone would be willing to pre-order or donate significant amounts of money, rather than the developers taking on a calculated risk themselves.
Given your experience working on Pillars of Eternity, I'd be interested in your perspective on this topic. For example, some gamers who pledged $500 for Ashes of Creation are understandably concerned by delays in Alpha 2 and the lack of a confirmed release date.
Is crowdfunding truly the only viable funding option for some games, or does it simply represent a low-risk way for developers to secure funding, without them needing to fully commit to more expensive financing methods?
I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. Love you, cheers from Brazil.
ooooorrrr mayyybe I don't restart the world at the end of the game, I just restart the player and give the player AMNESIA (reference: the only 1 time you give permission to use amnesia in the game), turning the player an actual NPC hehe
Have a nice day Tim! cheers!
New game plus in Shadow of the Colossus allows to climb on top of tower by getting more stamina with more plays.
In theory, I think the idea of locking certain content behind NG+ is good, but in practice? I dunno. There are plenty of games I'd've loved to do quick NG+ runs through, but had to start over from zero simply because the savedata either got lost, or I was playing the game on a different platform. On PC you can typically get around this by borrowing other players' savedata, but that's not always an option, and even when it is, it feels kinda weird to me -- like stepping into someone else's shoes.
Thanks Tim!
I liked Starfield's new game plus (minor spoiler ahead) where you see a slightly different version of the world every time, but the fact that you can join every single faction in that game without consequences was a huge turn off for me.
I got a question Tim. What's your take on importing save files into sequels? Like what they did in Mass Effect and Witcher series where some of the story elements change, or NPCs react differently if you import a save file from the last game. And why do you think they went away? It was such a cool idea! We don't get games like those anymore...
Canonical Endings
th-cam.com/video/V6rDgA5NXQc/w-d-xo.html
If I really like a game not being able to play past the end or having NG+ is a huge bummer. I get invested in my characters so having them locked out of play from beating the game sucks to me. Restarting a game from 0 is not usually very fun for me
Yeah and who cares about continuity, shepard can play dlc by jumpin into a save befroe the final push in ME3 and they had some sort of NG+ but it was boring in all ME games. Wish more games werent so strict and not even try to NG+
Paused at 7:20 while listening, open the tab to see Tim judging me fiercely for listening to this instead of working 😂😂
I slightly prefer ending, but.. I can't deny that new game plus is great for those who just want to dominate and feel powerful. In games that are action focused, having the ability to bring your overpowered character and gear to a higher level of difficulty with the bonus of being able to fight more powerful variants of the old enemies (but the story is the same) means you can still take pride in the previous achievements of the past run, while feeling weak-enough that its still challenging, despite already knowing what the basic events are to come in future. It is like you are an undead character who was brought back to life by God to experience war again. (time was manipulated just for you the chosen one to make you suffer the trials of life as punishment ...and just for the amusment by the cruel god that seeks entertainment lol)
The fun of action rpg is in the combat so new game plus feels like a test of your skill as a player more than a test of your player-character's stats. You see why it's fun to play New Game plus in castlevania? Because it lets you re-experience the boss fights knowing their patterns and seeing how much you progressed since your first playthrough when you can read their attack patterns and destroy them like psychic with ninja reflexes. It's your confirmation of being a badass by reaffirming what you already know and refining and perfecting your skills. You first run through is full of mistakes and trials. Ups and downs. Your second playthrough is that of the hero who has been on the heroes journey and completed it but wants to train himself using enemies you've defeated as training dummies. The consequences for making a mistake are smaller, but the emphasis is now on EFFICIENCY not on whether you can succeed or fail. (ie the time it takes to destroy a boss in as few steps as possible is your focus now, not just winning the game)
There are multiple ways to do a new game plus. And most of us just want the chance to be a lot stronger in a non canon version of events. But game designers are afraid(often rightly so) that it will break the balance.
personally I love games like resident evil 4 where you unlock higher difficulties, alternate outfits, new gamemodes etc. when you beat the game multiple times. as a player I don't feel like I'm being locked out of content, I feel like I'm being rewarded for beating the game.
the best NG+-es are those that forgo "prestige mode" and have some level of self-awareness that you're playing NG+. what's the point of playing again with all your shiny gear, but you have to trade it in immediately for new versions of the starting "questing greens"...
Hi Tim, would you share some of the brainstorming notes you had about fallout?
When playing Fallout 1, I really wished I could keep playing after the ending (I did use the "start combat and run for the exit trick" a few times). But in Fallout 2, I realized it's not really all that fun (For me). I much prefer instead games that let me take my time before I engage in the end (or the main) quest. However, I must admit I tend to replay those games a lot less as well once I've finished them once.
Tim mentioning "maybe the 20 gems you need to find are in a different place" when talking about NG+ randomizing stuff in the reset world was hilarious to me. that's exactly what Starfield does with its magic rocks, except the shame is that the most interesting randomizations on Starfield's NG+ grind are based on luck, are limited in scope (only the main faction HQ has a % chance to change?) and finding all the mcguffins in slightly different procedurally generated worlds does not fundamentally make the experience any better, if anything it just makes the artificiality of the game world show through more, the more you do it. It always comes down to diminishing returns when it comes to trying to extract infinite value and play time from any given game, the design tries to account for that but doesn't solve the issue.
Often when I can play beyond the end, I'll eventually get bored and restart. Sometimes it might take awhile, but I will eventually restart or quit, especially if the world doesn't react to my character anymore or whatever arbitrary goal has been achieved (like get a million caps in Fallout, or something).
Hey Tim, do you have any thoughts on cheat codes / console commands in games, and their slow disappearance from most modern games?
Aliens aka Zetans have been one of the antagonist Bethesda has done since getting the I.P. so I’m glad they took that “literal”.
Tim, I'd love to know your favourite game OSTs, and what you look for when it comes to videogame music