I don't live in the States, so when I want to introduce my players to a new rule, I usually have to translate a bulk of the player-facing material to their language first before I can even attempt to sell them on it. Shadowdark's super-simple writing style made it a cinch to prepare the material and sell to my players. I am fully convinced that one of the most important aspect of Shadowdark is the simplicity of its presentation, and consequently, how it welcomes, and not intimidate, newcomers.
As an editor, this was the most impressive part to me. The tight, economical writing is very clear. I basically can’t use A5e for the opposite reason - that work is an example of heavy overwriting.
The "don't answer a question that is not asked" advice is bunk, and, to my mind, counter to the Shadowdark philosophy, which is "Dispense information freely." The GM should clearly telegraph a point of interest for the player to investigate, not just ask for a Perception check.
@@epee11c I guess it's a fine line between 5e's constant and almost automatic use of Passive Perception (which isn't what I would do here if I'd run the game) and the fact that, as Sly points out, "characters will automatically succeed at anything their class would be good at". So, help them follow the action and point them out in the right direction, yet don't give them everything keys in hand all the time either, maybe ? As I said: a fine line.
"Dispense information freely. If the characters test the floor where there's a trap, they find it." (p104) So freely but not TOO freely. There's a balance to strive for.
Thanks for a great overview! My campaign ran 5e for years and after a single Shadowdark one shot, THEY voted to switch to Shadowdark going forward and we haven't looked back. So easy for new players to pick up and enjoy, intense combat with low HP and fun classes that don't get boxed in to cookie-cutter min-max templates. I hope you run a campaign with it too. I think you're going to find it's like a breath of fresh air.
I just got back into D&D after having not played for 40(!) years. So I'm coming from having played AD&D 1E and then leaping to 5E. I discovered Shadowdark and love everything I'm hearing - the real-world light timers, the limited gear slots, the simplified everything, the random components to character building... It really looks like a perfect blend of old-school and new, while preserving (and I think likely enhancing) that gritty, dangerous (i.e. fun!) experience I remember from the 80s. Can't wait to play!
Don’t forget about Reaction rolls for Monsters. Some of the most fun playing this as a GM is getting to role play monsters when positive reactions are rolled.
Great video. One thing to remember is that because characters are not getting lots of abilities, every level magic items are where their characters will get what makes them special and different from the next guy.
Looking forward to a followup video on how the gauntlet went. As one of those kickstarter backers, I've been waiting until I get the physical book before running it myself.
There's absolutely a bag of holding. I got it in a random treasure roll. It's sentient, it's name is Sacko, it hates Dwarves (which is the race of the only other player), and it's awesome. Sacko saved our asses. My goblin theif was sandwiched between two enemies, the dwarf preist was busy with another enemy across the room, I pulled out Sacko, said "DON'T LET GO!!" and put Sacko over the head of one of the enemies. DM loved it, got to use my Backstab feature because the enemy couldn't see the attacks. Totally turned the tide of that encounter.
I played a couple of sessions with my 5e group and we really enjoyed it. In shadowdark our are a neutral arbiter, thats why telegrafing dangers is so important! The sign of a sprung trap or the blood dripping trophys on the orcs belt... My advice: check out the Principia Apocrypha OSR primer 🤟 Have fun with shadowdark!!
I am very interested in Shadowdark, having already been a fan of ICRPG, 5TD, and EXD6. The stripped down rules and less powerful characters really appeal to me. I heard the tables alone in this game are amazing. The one thing that kept me from backing the Kickstarter was the price point. It felt like a bit too much for the core book. Anyways, I’m still on the fence and might make a late pledge. Looking forward to your next video on the gauntlet.
I was on the fence too, but ultimately I decided (later) that since I could afford the little extra, it was worth supporting the insane amount of work Kelsey put into this, but even more, I want a competitor in this area to wotc, and I really like what this game does. I think there is value there even beyond what is apparent. And real books, man. So much nicer to flip through when I want.
My copy is in the mail. I"ll have my hands on it tomorrow! Currently running a OSE Greyhawk campaign, but I'm looking forward to trying this out w my group!
I'm glad you're doing this series! Shadowdark is the game that is setting my brain on fire lately, I am finishing up current campaigns and setting up some Cairn one shots to get my players more familiar with OSR style play and then planning on transitioning my home game(s) to Shadowdark. I would love to see you bring Kelsey on to discuss her thought behind her design. I always appreciate how thoughtful you are with why GMs should do things and I find Kelsey has a similar thoughtfulness in how she designs the game and the adventures. I bet a conversation between you two would be really engaging.
I'm thinking of mixing Cairn (3 stats: Strength, Agility & Wits; automatic hits; armor reduces damage) and Shadowdark (ancestry, classes and levels). Do you think that could work?
i have used pieces of Shadowdark for my Old-School Essentials (Basic D&D) game and been very impressed. i am not sure i want to switch all the way to it when my group is perfectly happy with B/X, but i'll probably do what you're doing and try a one or two shot game of it at some point. i certainly appreciate the flat math.
@@hillerm i play on a VTT where using the detailed encumbrance rules is mostly automated, so i haven't tried slot-based encumbrance, but the version in Shadowdark is a simplified version of the item-based encumbrance rules in Carcass Crawler #2, so i think that would probably work just fine! the carousing rules and luck tokens are the pieces from Shadowdark that i've used in OSE.
I've been playing Shadowdark for a few months now and really enjoying it. At first I was excited about the Real-Time Light mechanic; however, it was a huge disappointment to me. It is annoying how you can light an oil lantern in one room, take a while there because a player is asking the GM for detailed descriptions about things in the room, go into next room, run into an encounter and mid-combat your lantern goes out because one hour in real time has passed, even though in-game it was 15 minutes at most. The rule is supposed to make players hurry up and play (in theory), but in practice it just rushes the game in the bad way (making PCs not want to RP, ask for detailed descriptions of our surroundings, etc) and punishes the players unnecessarily. I'm GM'ing a SD game now; got rid of that rule and it is running much better without it. And yes, there are Bag of Holdings in SD, but instead of being infinite, they can hold 10 gear slots; a good compromise.
To each his or her own (and their play group) but the situation you described is exactly what she was going for in game design. I think that time takes account for your characters really taking their time in an alien environment that is life threatening.
I also think it provides interesting situations and gear considerations. I also don’t think it’s crazy to say someone is going to spend an hour searching a room for noises, traps, hidden secrets, all while going slow enough to listen for incoming danger and be careful not to make excess noise.
We've played a few sessions, and it's pretty brutal if you go 100% RAW. Our second playthrough we used the pregens instead of rolling random and it was much less brutal, because the pregen characters have REALLY good stats that would be almost impossible to roll using the 3d6 in order method (which is curious to me). The players also made better decisions and asked better questions than in the first gauntlet scenario we ran. I am really looking forward to your debrief of the gauntlet session!
How did I convinced my group: “Hey, do y’all wanna give Shadowdark a try?” “What is that?” “It’s like AD&D without THAC0” “Sure!” And we’re having a blast, particularly when spell fail
There was a ShadowDark game jam recently and one of the 119(ish) supplements was a point buy system. So it's easily hackable (and encouraged to do so) in order to fit the needs of your group.
Can't wait to hear how it went! I love that art!! (My first d&d book ever was the AD&D Monster Manual, which I would pour over for hours as a kid, and this looks like a good sequel to that just in terms of art alone!!)
The Lone Wolf Adventure System also used a backpack system for what you could carry and were very limited when it came to gear and weapons. I implemented that idea based off of that. Glad to see another system using something similar. I really like it
PCs taking turns exploring a dungeon is such a great idea. i've used it in my b/x dnd campaign before and it really helps with the pace of the game as well as tracking time.
I backed shadowdark after a video from Prof DM . I love the simplicity and every video of Kelsey and her enthusiasm makes me love what Arcane library does more and more. The black am white images and esthetic of the world it portrays really energizes my imagination. The discord server is also full of the friendliest people. Play what ever makes you happy but for me shadowdark just plays into everything I really enjoy.
Love the deep dive. Having already run my first session of SD it's interesting to hear what take-aways you got that I didn't. Much more informative than most of the review videos out there.
Thanks for doing these Shadowdark videos- backed it on KS but haven't run it yet, and I've been running 99% 5e for so long now that your talking about the different mentality needed really helps. One thing, and it's not an exact comparison, but I'm not entirely sure that the Gauntlet is the best one-shot to run for players that you're trying to get on-board, and I'll explain why: Years ago I played a demo of DCC at GAMA and I *loved* it (so much so that I would go on to buy a ton of DCC stuff over the years, despite not running it). Earlier this year I finally ran a session for some players using the Funnel that the book recommended, using Sailors on the Starless Sea. It wasn't great. Why? Because when I played that demo, we had level 3 or 4 characters! The things that those characters could do were very cool, I loved the spell tables, etc. But with the funnel, there was none of the stuff that I thought made DCC character so interesting, you were just playing a dozen or so farmers/tradesmen that had to get lucky to live/succeed. I don't know if it'd be the same for Shadowdark, they're not the same game after all, but running a funnel to try to sell the game to my players, when the funnel isn't what sold ME on the game, is a regret 😢
Happy to see you covering Shadowdark!! What are your thoughts on adjusting current modules or other 3rd party modules (Shadowed Keep for example) to run well in Shadowdark?
OSR modules are basically drop-in and run. I extensively compared the OSE adventure Hole in the Oak, and they are so compatible that you could use either game’s monsters.
@@johnmickey5017 One thing to note is that gold/treasure value is much higher in most OSR modules. I've found that dividing a modules treasure values by 10 is a good kludge to bring the economy in line for SD.
Just finished reading the free version, and I gotta say, the rules don't seem tight in the way that Dungeon World or Blades is. There's a section about how "play time = game time," but later there's a confusing section in which rounds are both 6 minutes long (10 per hour) and "one complete set of player/GM turns." There's all this talk about torches and light, which I get, but seems pretty self-explanatory given the slot-based resources. At one point it says initiative is rolled at the start of the game (by which I assume means session), and then it's rolled again at the start of combat (but it also says "you're free to ignore the initiative order"). I want this game to work, but I don't feel confident in it the way I did with DW or Blades. The system just seems very simple. Looking forward to seeing the breakdown, though.
I've alread run a lot of different games and systems, so my players are usually (unless they're new) open to several options. I'm just going to add Shadowdark to those options. I'll often put it to a vote and if we get tie votes, etc., then we can roll a die to select a game. Most of the players most of the time have been very open to that approach, especially when testing a new game.
I am looking forward to this immensely! I collect RPG’s now and haven’t played in years. I started with D&D in the late 70’s. I really like playing low level characters and I think I may start playing again with this rule set.
I like the gritty survival of old school RPGs, but I dislike the limited character options that most of them have. I really like the subclass options in 5E, but dislike how overpowered some of them can be...
With Shadowdark’s turn system, you need to make player turns matter. Player time / turns are an economy. The DM should be generous with clues and treasure that players take turns to get - there does not need to be an obstacle or check every time. This is why you should often simply let players succeed. They have already expended a resource to do the action. Also note the Regroup rules, which greatly speed up play.
I already have a one shot planned for september for Shadowdark. My group will end their 5e campaign and we will introduce a new player to the hobby and I decided to try SD, but I will run the Scarlet Minotaur adventure. This video helped me a lot with it, and I look forward for your impressions of the gauntlet. Did not see that abilitiies modifier don´t add to damage, so thanks for that.
Oui oui, as a proud frenchman I fully condone Sly's pronunciation of the word piton as 'pee-tawns'. Scrumptious ! (p.s: as a proud frenchman trying to speak english, I always assumed you lot said 'pie-tones' instead... oh, well...)
Wow! 1.3 million! I knew it was successful but that's awesome. I love this system, Kelsey's great, and this looks like fun. Can't wait to hear how it goes with you.
The question of how to get your players to try is really interesting to me, because trying Shadowdark shouldn't be any different than asking them to try Torchbearer or Five Torches Deep or BECMI. But there are a lot more videos about Shadowdark than the others, and it makes me wonder, what was the right place right time mojo that is attracting people to Stadowdark over retroclones or other OSR adjacent games? I'm super lucky in that I've been gaming with largely the same core group of friends for 30 years, and they will try just about anything, and I know not everybody has that, so discussing how to gauge interest is valuable, but it's also really interesting to me to ask why are we gauging interest for this particular game but never did with those others?
An important difference between the Shadowdark (osr) style of play and the modern dnd style of play is how we view character stories. I'm very fond of the 5e (lazy dm) character focused game, where we center our campaign around the characters and their stories. This makes sense in a heroic system: the characters are special and powerful, so they get a lot of influence and attention. In the old school style that Shadowdark goes for, i get the impression that backstory doesn't matter that much. The characters are basically normal people at 1st level. They aren't that special and having an extensive backstory or character doesn't get any attention in the rules. The PC is more a tool to engage with the world, not the focus itself. Things like random character generation and high lethality only seem to enforce this. This might be an important difference to keep in mind and it's one of the reasons that i'm not that interested anymore in the old school style.
Id love to know how well you could play a story based game with this system? Given characters often rapid mortality i imagine itd be hard to make character given plots.
I assume it is old school, where it does not work particularly well with RP, drama and large plots unfolding. Main reason I passed it on KS. I was not sad to move from Basic to 2e and then to 3e. I don't intend to go back
Doesn't sound like my cup of tea, but I downloaded the Quickstarter and will read it. Sounds a bit like someone got their hands on Oe Whitebox and the 1e dmg or the old dragon magazine articles. Tracking torches, the way exploration is done, no passive perception... This is how I am running my d&d since the 80s. What I do is rolling for doors when elves are in the party if it applies. I like that versatility of d&d, it's a multifunctional tool and I can apply the detail I want as I see fit ruleswise. Oe can be much more advanced using the full set of supplements than 1e without UA and survival guides or 2e without optional rules and splats
Now that you have played both Numenera/Cypher and Shadowdark, i would be curious how you would compared them feom a rule perspective. Its clear they arw VERY different game feel, but when it comes to ease of play, ease of GMing and such, the comparison would be interesting.
Great video! A quick comment, character level is not equivalent in power to the same monster level, though the "1:1", in a glance, might give that impression. You should multiply the sum of character levels by roughly 2/3 to get the total of monster levels.
I am running Hoard of the Seawolf King for a group of nine (!) Players. Session 1 we had I think three character deaths. Maybe four. One got killed by a ghost, one got bit by a spider, and one got cursed to eat until he died of starvation. It was pretty wild and I don't recommend running it for so many people haha but otherwise it was a lot of fun.
Re: all the flat math and no bonuses from stats, i wonder what would happen if you adopted that in 5e for certain aspects, say hp and damage... It'd probably break everything, but itd be nice if it didn't and instead you got a better experience 😂
It was expressed to focus on real world time for torches. There is also an encouragement to set timers for torches and not to use multiple timers. When only 1 torch would apply for lighting and not be necessary for its range. That way in the middle of combat, or a means to cause uncertainty among the players exploring. Yet, when it comes to spells each one has its duration set by a number of rounds. I believe if the goal is to increase tension. Then, when a timer for a spell ends when its most needed. This may do just that.
I dont think that Shadow Dark is under the assumption that you cant tell the player: "Give me a WIS check .... your PC sees a shadow that moves behind that pillar" The "Dont answer any question that is not asked" is a style of GMing, not something a Shadow Dark (or any system) demands that you MUST do it.
Shadowdark assumes character competency and favors giving information over not sharing information. In the case you presented, you might just tell the player with a character on watch without a check at all.
@@johnmickey5017 Whoever told him that was misinforming him. It runs counter to the liveplays and even the examples given in the book about how to run the game.
I need to read through this. By and large it sounds like something pretty much opposite to what I'd like to play, but on the other hand if I'm going in with a different mindset... almost like going into a board game... Just gonna play for fun and see what happens and not worry about roleplaying really... Yeah maybe I'd enjoy it.
Compared to 5e, Shadowdark is like running a half-marathon in shorts and trainers, whilst 5e is running it dressed as a wookiee wearing steel-toe cap boots and carrying his granny on his back. My experienced players really enjoyed their characters emerging from the rolls and that they get to use their noggins when puzzling out traps and obstacles. Fantastic for dungeon crawls. The free adventure dungeon in the starter pack is great. And it was wonderful when the lights would run out in the middle of a combat - the ensuing panic and chaos was hilarious.
If you get a tickle out of "double near," the Tarrasque can move TRIPLE near and make melee attacks, like biting, out to Near range. So it can technically reach you at QUADRUPLE NEAR distance. How many Nears can you fit into a Far?! I suppose it depends on how far you can see... (jk, I love the game, but I do get a tickle out of "double near," too.)
I would err in between telling the players stuff and not. The super dangerous stuff yes. Over describe it. But not giving the players everything forces them to be more engaged.
Rolling for Melee Combat damage, page 88 "Roll 1d20 +your Strength modifier + talent bonuses" So you still get that extra damage, and Strength Matters on your damage. Same goes for Ranged attack and Dex
Very excited to hear back about your reflections on the system. I've REALLY enjoyed the system as a player, but less so as a GM. I'm definitely going to keep going with it to continue to hone my skills and "learn the system", which is odd since it's so rules lite but so style heavy.
One question is adventure design for like a published module, I can't find the right balance for the players to fight on an adventuring day or like how many encounters they can handle for each day or per level, how would you go for something like that?
I really like a lot of what Shadowdark brings to the 5E/OSR table, Including the designer's unflappable positivity. The two things I don't like are rolled HP at level one (why invest in the session if you have 1 HP to start?) and the "no hidden rolls" rule. Hiding information from the players is a great DM tool to increase tension and heroic RP. Fudging a to hit roll on that character that keeps having bad luck is NOT a bad thing.
I disagree. As a player it's extremely rewarding to keep your 1 HP character alive long enough to level up, you become very attached to that character. I also don't agree with fudging rolls ever.
With low hit points, the tension in combats are high. You'll find every player waiting anxiously for every roll in combat. I don't hide my rolls, even for 5e. I find players respect the outcome of the dice, even when it goes against them. Remember, this is a different way to play from 5e. Survival is the goal here and make the players understand that deaths are a normal part of the game. Discourage 5 page backgrounds, a paragraph is all you need if even that. 5e is about the character's story ... these games are about living through the adventure!
Thank you for this video. It convinced me that I have no interest in this game so it was valuable to me. I have come to the conclusion that the whole OSR movement seems to boil down to "You know what I really miss about RPGs...the really annoying parts like encumbrance! I also miss dying a lot". I'm pretty old compared to most of you and I actually played all those old-school games and I would rather play games that have moved forward in game theory and mechanics. Newer games (some of them at least) are just plain better TO ME (YMMV) and are more fast paced and make better sense to me. I'm glad we have a large range of game types to meet the needs of lots of different gamers. This type is just not for me.
Same. I started with the red box D&D, and that's what we played because that's what we had, not because it was a good game. I have zero desire to go back to those days, and Shadowdark has done nothing to change my mind 😂
I think the idea of not answering questions not asked pertains more to what players can do. Another words don't suggest to players while you could try using your ten-foot pole to get out of a pit. It doesn't mean don't tell players there is now a growling sound from a monster unless they ask do I hear anything. Portraying the world as it is means letting them know and they sent something new and threatening without them having to ask, and I think the game designer assumed that. It does mean don't say to a player I wouldn't do that if I were you. Is the designer says, let them find their own trouble.
I absolutely hate the WotC stat scaling, I would never in a million years let a first level character have a +4 to anything. If ran as written, you could end up with +5 to hit at first level, which absolutely absurd when first level enemies have like 12-15 ac.
I think anyone wanting a change of pace from 5E should probably leave the D20 mechanics behind , any system, and try something different. All these 'OSR' type clones are just variations of D&D and aren't actually different to me. Try Fantasy AGE, try the first couple editions of Warhammer, try Genesys, try any other system that gets away from the D20 curve if you truly want something different, otherwise it's just D&D to me. Most of these Shadowdark differences can just be home brewed into 5E easily. Spells might need a little more thought on a GMs part, but it's not building a nuclear reactor with coconuts complicated, and it's also cheaper if someone already has a stack of 5E books.
There are people who dont want to homebrew everything and have disposable income for books. And yes, of course they are D&D clones, they never claim to be something different. I am not sure what you are arguing against here.
I don’t understand how buying a $20 PDF is cheaper than studying the PHB, designing and playtesting a massive homebrew ruleset, then writing it in way that players can understand.
@@TheOriginalDogLP One of the main points of the video is how it's different then D&D, and the differences are pretty minor, aside from the spells. Most of the differences cited are very simple tweaks to 5E. I'm not arguing or telling anyone anything, I am stating my opinion, which is what was asked for by Mike. What are you doing to contribute to that?
@@johnmickey5017 If someone is already playing 5E I am of couse assuming they already have some level of investment in the product, so it's cheaper because $20 more would be $20 more for what I think are pretty minor rule changes in 5E. I point out magic is a different line of thought, although implementing an Arcana check when you use a spell in 5E, and maybe reducing the number of spells known isn't what I would call 'massive', I just wrote it in a single sentence.
@@johnmickey5017 I mean if $ is the only concern, you can homebrew all day to get the same result. I think for the vast majority of adults though, time is MUCH more precious a resource than 20 or 50 or 200$ is. I COULD do dozens of hours of homebrew creating good random tables, but this already has that, it's succinct, playtested, has lore, has adventures, has dungeons, all of it.
I would argue against opinionated/lots of diffrent way to play 5e statement. The machanics that are actually flushed out are going to push towards a certain play style. 5e gives the appearance of not giving a damn but in my experience the players don’t want high danger, they feel cheated. They expect to be gods.
If you're going to run a gauntlet in this, for it to be fun, you have to have the Dungeon Crawl Classic attitude, and play like it's Paranoia. It's kind of a One-Shot played for laughs sort of game. If you're not into that, a gauntlet is not going to be fun.
Shadowdark is a great system, specifically for players. My players have really enjoyed the pace of character creation and gameplay, which are fast and furious. That said, I have found it to be somewhat cumbersome as a GM because there are lots of rules that are (purposefully) vague; swimming is a good example. If a GM doesn't have experience running B/X style games, they might find themselves at a loss for how to adjudicate a particular rule at the table.
This is typical of all OSR games (which is why it also exists to some extent in 5E). The idea is to not feel pressure to get the perfect rule in a situation that rarely comes up. Just use something that works for the moment and move on to what the game wants to focus on.
@@grahamward7 You've misunderstood what I was saying. Because Shadowdark is pulling a lot of people into their first OSR-style game, they aren't arriving with the same preconceived notions or expectations as someone who has read lots of OSR rulesets. Even having run an extensive number of OSR style games/sessions I was confused by some elements of the rules (e.g. treasure/XP) because they leave so much unsaid/implied.
@@mattbruner5942 But every OSR game has this problem, that is what the previous commentor said. Its in the philosphy of OSR do leave a lot open to GM ruling.
Hey man, just a little feedback on these TH-cam videos: the thumbnails all look the same and repeat the text the video title already has. I love these videos, but it’s really hard to navigate the channel trying to find one that’s interesting. I recommend making your thumbnails more distinct in color with less text, and even just a single descriptive graphic on it. This would make it a lot easier for people to find a Sly Flourish video that interests them.
Love your videos, but your title by use of the possessive apostrophe implies ownership - ie that you created Shadowdark. I know it was not intended, keep doing what your doing. I also am really looking forward to your take on the high fantasy / campaign possibilities with SD. My fear is that some areas such as character creation, choices of abilities when leveling, etc turn this more into a meat grind than 1st edition did.
Looks interesting, but some weird grammar in the book. For example the Archdevil's soulbind power: "All targets within near DC 20 CHA or fall..." what the heck does that mean? Are the writers not primary-English speakers?
I would read that as “All targets within 30 ft need to pass a DC 20 charisma save or fall…,” but yeah, I get what you are saying. The author has a background in crime journalism, so that probably explains the economic word count. Probability does count as a different language, haha!
"All targets within near" defines the target of the action. "DC20 CHA or..." defines the save to avoid the result which is described next. It's thankfully not prose, so that the stat blocks are quickly usable during the game.
8 minutes in and I can already tell that it ain't gonna be good. Torche as mecanic to push forward : It can work but it also can and will create frustration as roleplaying a gritty individual able to face those odds and being one are completely different situation. You cannot expect from your players unless they are veteran of hardcore type of ttrpg to keep such a pace in the long run. Random "everything" : No. If the goal is to prevent mini maxing then it only mean you're diagnosing something as a disease when it isn't one in the first place. If the goal is to play a rogue like or rogue light ? Then video game will do better then any ttrpg hands down. Also trying to present the scaling down of health as an inherently good thing is also kind of funny it mean you could literally have a 6 hit point minotaur which is completely asinine. The same goes for the damage. It increases the amount of luck in your game to such an extent that the game can be summarized as gambling but with a story attached. And, in case this hasn't hit you on the head yet, player want the consequence to be the result of their decision making first and foremost, luck is meant to be secondary not primary. If you want to gamble you do not need any specific game for that that hasn't been developed already, we even have special places for that called casinos.
Torch mechanics are easier and more fun to track than rolling for it, adds unique type of tension that can also effect play at the table to be fast paced. Random everything is so its quick and easy to make a character and less nerving to die. Think like old arcade games like mario where you start over in 1:1 each time you die and you try to get deeper into the game per $0.25. Luck is when you attempt something risky, if you attempt something without risk, there is no punishment for your decisions. Lower HP doesn't mean no scaling, just means the saling is single digits and
@@SkittleBombs It's not about randomness for torches it's about the omnipresent tension being something that cater only to hardcore player and will easily end up being a negative for other people. Yeah and TTRPG are not supposed to be casinos where you get your fix. wether or not it allows to churn out "characters" quick is beside the point although it is one more negative as it reduce the narrative value of each character precisely because they're made "nice and quick". Considering how the game is designed anything that has impact will be completely luck based and you know it. Even the use of torches will be based on luck because how and when you use your torches will be the result of tons of decision all linked to luck to an incredible degree so even torches, in the end, has luck in it albeit indirectly. I don't know how you can think this answer of yours to be any kind of proper rebuttal you're actually proving me right. Even increasing the amount of point I have to leverage.
@@TrueAryador torches going out adds a narrative moment and tension. This is called taste, if you don’t have people who want tension in their games, dont play shadow dark. If you don’t want character death, shadow darks early game is not to your taste. Doing things with risk involved requires luck to be introduced so you cannot meta game the outcome and let the dice make the trials and tribulations you face more interesting
The game tries too many things and introduces too many new takes at once; and mostly for the sake of it, from the sounds of it. I’d just go play ANY other OSR game at this point.
I don't live in the States, so when I want to introduce my players to a new rule, I usually have to translate a bulk of the player-facing material to their language first before I can even attempt to sell them on it. Shadowdark's super-simple writing style made it a cinch to prepare the material and sell to my players. I am fully convinced that one of the most important aspect of Shadowdark is the simplicity of its presentation, and consequently, how it welcomes, and not intimidate, newcomers.
As an editor, this was the most impressive part to me. The tight, economical writing is very clear.
I basically can’t use A5e for the opposite reason - that work is an example of heavy overwriting.
That sucks to hear you have extra work on top of everything else. Thanks for making new players and driving more interest in translated works!!
The "don't answer a question that is not asked" advice is bunk, and, to my mind, counter to the Shadowdark philosophy, which is "Dispense information freely." The GM should clearly telegraph a point of interest for the player to investigate, not just ask for a Perception check.
I think you're absolutely correct.
I would second this. I think the game wants you to provide any information the characters would know even if the players don't think to ask.
Yeah. I take that back.
@@epee11c I guess it's a fine line between 5e's constant and almost automatic use of Passive Perception (which isn't what I would do here if I'd run the game) and the fact that, as Sly points out, "characters will automatically succeed at anything their class would be good at". So, help them follow the action and point them out in the right direction, yet don't give them everything keys in hand all the time either, maybe ? As I said: a fine line.
"Dispense information freely.
If the characters test the floor
where there's a trap, they find it." (p104) So freely but not TOO freely. There's a balance to strive for.
Thanks for a great overview! My campaign ran 5e for years and after a single Shadowdark one shot, THEY voted to switch to Shadowdark going forward and we haven't looked back. So easy for new players to pick up and enjoy, intense combat with low HP and fun classes that don't get boxed in to cookie-cutter min-max templates. I hope you run a campaign with it too. I think you're going to find it's like a breath of fresh air.
I just got back into D&D after having not played for 40(!) years. So I'm coming from having played AD&D 1E and then leaping to 5E. I discovered Shadowdark and love everything I'm hearing - the real-world light timers, the limited gear slots, the simplified everything, the random components to character building... It really looks like a perfect blend of old-school and new, while preserving (and I think likely enhancing) that gritty, dangerous (i.e. fun!) experience I remember from the 80s. Can't wait to play!
Don’t forget about Reaction rolls for Monsters. Some of the most fun playing this as a GM is getting to role play monsters when positive reactions are rolled.
Remember the comic strip about insulting the scourge of the north? Love that so much.
Great video. One thing to remember is that because characters are not getting lots of abilities, every level magic items are where their characters will get what makes them special and different from the next guy.
Looking forward to a followup video on how the gauntlet went. As one of those kickstarter backers, I've been waiting until I get the physical book before running it myself.
Same here. I had Covid when the PDFs dropped, so my staycation was spent reading every damn supplement and the core book. 😁
Another thing i love about Shadowdark is how easy and fun it is to design/produce third party content for
There's absolutely a bag of holding. I got it in a random treasure roll. It's sentient, it's name is Sacko, it hates Dwarves (which is the race of the only other player), and it's awesome. Sacko saved our asses. My goblin theif was sandwiched between two enemies, the dwarf preist was busy with another enemy across the room, I pulled out Sacko, said "DON'T LET GO!!" and put Sacko over the head of one of the enemies. DM loved it, got to use my Backstab feature because the enemy couldn't see the attacks. Totally turned the tide of that encounter.
I played a couple of sessions with my 5e group and we really enjoyed it.
In shadowdark our are a neutral arbiter, thats why telegrafing dangers is so important! The sign of a sprung trap or the blood dripping trophys on the orcs belt...
My advice: check out the Principia Apocrypha OSR primer 🤟
Have fun with shadowdark!!
I'm totally engrossed in Shadowdark lately. Absolutely love playing and writing adventures for it.
I am very interested in Shadowdark, having already been a fan of ICRPG, 5TD, and EXD6. The stripped down rules and less powerful characters really appeal to me. I heard the tables alone in this game are amazing.
The one thing that kept me from backing the Kickstarter was the price point. It felt like a bit too much for the core book. Anyways, I’m still on the fence and might make a late pledge.
Looking forward to your next video on the gauntlet.
I was on the fence too, but ultimately I decided (later) that since I could afford the little extra, it was worth supporting the insane amount of work Kelsey put into this, but even more, I want a competitor in this area to wotc, and I really like what this game does. I think there is value there even beyond what is apparent. And real books, man. So much nicer to flip through when I want.
My copy is in the mail. I"ll have my hands on it tomorrow! Currently running a OSE Greyhawk campaign, but I'm looking forward to trying this out w my group!
Think you might like Black Lodge Games Shadow Dark supplement called the Shucked Oyster. It’s on Kickstarter now.
I'm glad you're doing this series! Shadowdark is the game that is setting my brain on fire lately, I am finishing up current campaigns and setting up some Cairn one shots to get my players more familiar with OSR style play and then planning on transitioning my home game(s) to Shadowdark. I would love to see you bring Kelsey on to discuss her thought behind her design. I always appreciate how thoughtful you are with why GMs should do things and I find Kelsey has a similar thoughtfulness in how she designs the game and the adventures. I bet a conversation between you two would be really engaging.
I'm thinking of mixing Cairn (3 stats: Strength, Agility & Wits; automatic hits; armor reduces damage) and Shadowdark (ancestry, classes and levels). Do you think that could work?
i have used pieces of Shadowdark for my Old-School Essentials (Basic D&D) game and been very impressed. i am not sure i want to switch all the way to it when my group is perfectly happy with B/X, but i'll probably do what you're doing and try a one or two shot game of it at some point. i certainly appreciate the flat math.
I’m intrigued by the idea of incorporating slot-based inventory into OSE. Which pieces did you go with?
@@hillerm i play on a VTT where using the detailed encumbrance rules is mostly automated, so i haven't tried slot-based encumbrance, but the version in Shadowdark is a simplified version of the item-based encumbrance rules in Carcass Crawler #2, so i think that would probably work just fine! the carousing rules and luck tokens are the pieces from Shadowdark that i've used in OSE.
I've been playing Shadowdark for a few months now and really enjoying it. At first I was excited about the Real-Time Light mechanic; however, it was a huge disappointment to me. It is annoying how you can light an oil lantern in one room, take a while there because a player is asking the GM for detailed descriptions about things in the room, go into next room, run into an encounter and mid-combat your lantern goes out because one hour in real time has passed, even though in-game it was 15 minutes at most. The rule is supposed to make players hurry up and play (in theory), but in practice it just rushes the game in the bad way (making PCs not want to RP, ask for detailed descriptions of our surroundings, etc) and punishes the players unnecessarily. I'm GM'ing a SD game now; got rid of that rule and it is running much better without it. And yes, there are Bag of Holdings in SD, but instead of being infinite, they can hold 10 gear slots; a good compromise.
To each his or her own (and their play group) but the situation you described is exactly what she was going for in game design. I think that time takes account for your characters really taking their time in an alien environment that is life threatening.
I also think it provides interesting situations and gear considerations. I also don’t think it’s crazy to say someone is going to spend an hour searching a room for noises, traps, hidden secrets, all while going slow enough to listen for incoming danger and be careful not to make excess noise.
Why didn't they reload and relight the lantern before moving to the next room?
We've played a few sessions, and it's pretty brutal if you go 100% RAW. Our second playthrough we used the pregens instead of rolling random and it was much less brutal, because the pregen characters have REALLY good stats that would be almost impossible to roll using the 3d6 in order method (which is curious to me). The players also made better decisions and asked better questions than in the first gauntlet scenario we ran. I am really looking forward to your debrief of the gauntlet session!
How did I convinced my group:
“Hey, do y’all wanna give Shadowdark a try?”
“What is that?”
“It’s like AD&D without THAC0”
“Sure!”
And we’re having a blast, particularly when spell fail
AD&D without THAC0, hilarious, succinct summary!
There was a ShadowDark game jam recently and one of the 119(ish) supplements was a point buy system. So it's easily hackable (and encouraged to do so) in order to fit the needs of your group.
Can't wait to hear how it went! I love that art!! (My first d&d book ever was the AD&D Monster Manual, which I would pour over for hours as a kid, and this looks like a good sequel to that just in terms of art alone!!)
The Lone Wolf Adventure System also used a backpack system for what you could carry and were very limited when it came to gear and weapons. I implemented that idea based off of that. Glad to see another system using something similar. I really like it
PCs taking turns exploring a dungeon is such a great idea. i've used it in my b/x dnd campaign before and it really helps with the pace of the game as well as tracking time.
I backed shadowdark after a video from Prof DM . I love the simplicity and every video of Kelsey and her enthusiasm makes me love what Arcane library does more and more. The black am white images and esthetic of the world it portrays really energizes my imagination. The discord server is also full of the friendliest people. Play what ever makes you happy but for me shadowdark just plays into everything I really enjoy.
Subscribed. Very nice down breaking down Shadowdark RPG. This is the way.
Love the deep dive. Having already run my first session of SD it's interesting to hear what take-aways you got that I didn't. Much more informative than most of the review videos out there.
Thanks for doing these Shadowdark videos- backed it on KS but haven't run it yet, and I've been running 99% 5e for so long now that your talking about the different mentality needed really helps.
One thing, and it's not an exact comparison, but I'm not entirely sure that the Gauntlet is the best one-shot to run for players that you're trying to get on-board, and I'll explain why:
Years ago I played a demo of DCC at GAMA and I *loved* it (so much so that I would go on to buy a ton of DCC stuff over the years, despite not running it). Earlier this year I finally ran a session for some players using the Funnel that the book recommended, using Sailors on the Starless Sea.
It wasn't great. Why? Because when I played that demo, we had level 3 or 4 characters! The things that those characters could do were very cool, I loved the spell tables, etc. But with the funnel, there was none of the stuff that I thought made DCC character so interesting, you were just playing a dozen or so farmers/tradesmen that had to get lucky to live/succeed.
I don't know if it'd be the same for Shadowdark, they're not the same game after all, but running a funnel to try to sell the game to my players, when the funnel isn't what sold ME on the game, is a regret 😢
Happy to see you covering Shadowdark!! What are your thoughts on adjusting current modules or other 3rd party modules (Shadowed Keep for example) to run well in Shadowdark?
OSR modules are basically drop-in and run. I extensively compared the OSE adventure Hole in the Oak, and they are so compatible that you could use either game’s monsters.
@@johnmickey5017 One thing to note is that gold/treasure value is much higher in most OSR modules. I've found that dividing a modules treasure values by 10 is a good kludge to bring the economy in line for SD.
The core book is worth the purchase simply for the TONS of tables. Sly, please go over those next video.
Just finished reading the free version, and I gotta say, the rules don't seem tight in the way that Dungeon World or Blades is. There's a section about how "play time = game time," but later there's a confusing section in which rounds are both 6 minutes long (10 per hour) and "one complete set of player/GM turns." There's all this talk about torches and light, which I get, but seems pretty self-explanatory given the slot-based resources. At one point it says initiative is rolled at the start of the game (by which I assume means session), and then it's rolled again at the start of combat (but it also says "you're free to ignore the initiative order").
I want this game to work, but I don't feel confident in it the way I did with DW or Blades. The system just seems very simple. Looking forward to seeing the breakdown, though.
I've alread run a lot of different games and systems, so my players are usually (unless they're new) open to several options. I'm just going to add Shadowdark to those options. I'll often put it to a vote and if we get tie votes, etc., then we can roll a die to select a game. Most of the players most of the time have been very open to that approach, especially when testing a new game.
Really looking forward to your video over the Gauntlet! Maybe soon? 👀
I’ve kickstarted shadowdark! Really looking forwards to an update of how it was to DM for you!
I am looking forward to this immensely! I collect RPG’s now and haven’t played in years. I started with D&D in the late 70’s. I really like playing low level characters and I think I may start playing again with this rule set.
I like the gritty survival of old school RPGs, but I dislike the limited character options that most of them have. I really like the subclass options in 5E, but dislike how overpowered some of them can be...
I've run 3-4 groups through one shot dungeons with SD and I'm about to start a long term game using the Cursed Scroll 3 island map and setting.
Torches and darkness: wasn't that done in Torchbearer 1 and 2? I like it. (Btw that's inspired Darkest Dungeon pc game)
With Shadowdark’s turn system, you need to make player turns matter. Player time / turns are an economy. The DM should be generous with clues and treasure that players take turns to get - there does not need to be an obstacle or check every time.
This is why you should often simply let players succeed. They have already expended a resource to do the action.
Also note the Regroup rules, which greatly speed up play.
I already have a one shot planned for september for Shadowdark. My group will end their 5e campaign and we will introduce a new player to the hobby and I decided to try SD, but I will run the Scarlet Minotaur adventure. This video helped me a lot with it, and I look forward for your impressions of the gauntlet. Did not see that abilitiies modifier don´t add to damage, so thanks for that.
This is def not a good fit for my group and will probably never run it, but I like listening to your explanation anyways :)
great job, Sly -- thanks!
This one looks very interesting. I need the check the Quick Start. Btw. what are you using for your digital notes?
There are bags of holding in Shadowdark, but they only add another 10 inventory slots, the equivalent of bringing a henchman along.
Not only is there a Bag of Holding, but if you've found the Wandering Merchant, he has a Bottomless Bag with 200 gear slots.
Oui oui, as a proud frenchman I fully condone Sly's pronunciation of the word piton as 'pee-tawns'. Scrumptious ! (p.s: as a proud frenchman trying to speak english, I always assumed you lot said 'pie-tones' instead... oh, well...)
Wow! 1.3 million! I knew it was successful but that's awesome. I love this system, Kelsey's great, and this looks like fun. Can't wait to hear how it goes with you.
The question of how to get your players to try is really interesting to me, because trying Shadowdark shouldn't be any different than asking them to try Torchbearer or Five Torches Deep or BECMI. But there are a lot more videos about Shadowdark than the others, and it makes me wonder, what was the right place right time mojo that is attracting people to Stadowdark over retroclones or other OSR adjacent games?
I'm super lucky in that I've been gaming with largely the same core group of friends for 30 years, and they will try just about anything, and I know not everybody has that, so discussing how to gauge interest is valuable, but it's also really interesting to me to ask why are we gauging interest for this particular game but never did with those others?
An important difference between the Shadowdark (osr) style of play and the modern dnd style of play is how we view character stories.
I'm very fond of the 5e (lazy dm) character focused game, where we center our campaign around the characters and their stories. This makes sense in a heroic system: the characters are special and powerful, so they get a lot of influence and attention.
In the old school style that Shadowdark goes for, i get the impression that backstory doesn't matter that much. The characters are basically normal people at 1st level. They aren't that special and having an extensive backstory or character doesn't get any attention in the rules. The PC is more a tool to engage with the world, not the focus itself. Things like random character generation and high lethality only seem to enforce this.
This might be an important difference to keep in mind and it's one of the reasons that i'm not that interested anymore in the old school style.
Does Sly Flourish post his "live games" for streaming view? I'd like to see his table "live".
5e is definitely super-hero fantasy. No question about it at all.
Id love to know how well you could play a story based game with this system? Given characters often rapid mortality i imagine itd be hard to make character given plots.
I assume it is old school, where it does not work particularly well with RP, drama and large plots unfolding. Main reason I passed it on KS. I was not sad to move from Basic to 2e and then to 3e. I don't intend to go back
Ship of theseus. It's group based. The group has a story. Characters may come and go. But the group decides the story.
You think I would run Shadowed Keep on the Borderlands with this system?
Doesn't sound like my cup of tea, but I downloaded the Quickstarter and will read it. Sounds a bit like someone got their hands on Oe Whitebox and the 1e dmg or the old dragon magazine articles. Tracking torches, the way exploration is done, no passive perception... This is how I am running my d&d since the 80s. What I do is rolling for doors when elves are in the party if it applies. I like that versatility of d&d, it's a multifunctional tool and I can apply the detail I want as I see fit ruleswise. Oe can be much more advanced using the full set of supplements than 1e without UA and survival guides or 2e without optional rules and splats
Now that you have played both Numenera/Cypher and Shadowdark, i would be curious how you would compared them feom a rule perspective. Its clear they arw VERY different game feel, but when it comes to ease of play, ease of GMing and such, the comparison would be interesting.
thanks for this video. we are trying Knaive and Shadwodark ... welcome change from 5E .. and Mouseguard.
Great video! A quick comment, character level is not equivalent in power to the same monster level, though the "1:1", in a glance, might give that impression. You should multiply the sum of character levels by roughly 2/3 to get the total of monster levels.
I am running Hoard of the Seawolf King for a group of nine (!) Players. Session 1 we had I think three character deaths. Maybe four. One got killed by a ghost, one got bit by a spider, and one got cursed to eat until he died of starvation. It was pretty wild and I don't recommend running it for so many people haha but otherwise it was a lot of fun.
Re: all the flat math and no bonuses from stats, i wonder what would happen if you adopted that in 5e for certain aspects, say hp and damage... It'd probably break everything, but itd be nice if it didn't and instead you got a better experience 😂
It was expressed to focus on real world time for torches. There is also an encouragement to set timers for torches and not to use multiple timers. When only 1 torch would apply for lighting and not be necessary for its range. That way in the middle of combat, or a means to cause uncertainty among the players exploring. Yet, when it comes to spells each one has its duration set by a number of rounds.
I believe if the goal is to increase tension. Then, when a timer for a spell ends when its most needed. This may do just that.
I dont think that Shadow Dark is under the assumption that you cant tell the player: "Give me a WIS check .... your PC sees a shadow that moves behind that pillar"
The "Dont answer any question that is not asked" is a style of GMing, not something a Shadow Dark (or any system) demands that you MUST do it.
Shadowdark assumes character competency and favors giving information over not sharing information. In the case you presented, you might just tell the player with a character on watch without a check at all.
Yeah I see he got that from the Discord, that isn’t a philosophy I’ve seen in the books. It sounds like overcorrection to me.
@@johnmickey5017 Whoever told him that was misinforming him. It runs counter to the liveplays and even the examples given in the book about how to run the game.
I need to read through this. By and large it sounds like something pretty much opposite to what I'd like to play, but on the other hand if I'm going in with a different mindset... almost like going into a board game... Just gonna play for fun and see what happens and not worry about roleplaying really... Yeah maybe I'd enjoy it.
As u said double near is about up to 60 feet.
Compared to 5e, Shadowdark is like running a half-marathon in shorts and trainers, whilst 5e is running it dressed as a wookiee wearing steel-toe cap boots and carrying his granny on his back. My experienced players really enjoyed their characters emerging from the rolls and that they get to use their noggins when puzzling out traps and obstacles.
Fantastic for dungeon crawls. The free adventure dungeon in the starter pack is great. And it was wonderful when the lights would run out in the middle of a combat - the ensuing panic and chaos was hilarious.
Close, near, far, and farther.
If you get a tickle out of "double near," the Tarrasque can move TRIPLE near and make melee attacks, like biting, out to Near range. So it can technically reach you at QUADRUPLE NEAR distance. How many Nears can you fit into a Far?! I suppose it depends on how far you can see... (jk, I love the game, but I do get a tickle out of "double near," too.)
I would err in between telling the players stuff and not. The super dangerous stuff yes. Over describe it. But not giving the players everything forces them to be more engaged.
Nobody talk about the fact that there is no saving throw...the sleep spell simply work?? No resistance??
Sleep often doesn't have a saving throw. It's never had one in D&D, as I recall.
Rolling for Melee Combat damage, page 88
"Roll 1d20 +your Strength modifier + talent bonuses"
So you still get that extra damage, and Strength Matters on your damage. Same goes for Ranged attack and Dex
Where's the art from the thumbnail from? The dark-elf character?
Ruins of the Grendleroot.
I look forward to record a game of ShadowDark on our channel
So double near should be "wherever you are"? So you have near far and....
Hey Sly, Got to this vid late.
I'm not trolling here - just pointing out - this vid is an OVERVIEW, NOT a Deep Dive.
Very excited to hear back about your reflections on the system. I've REALLY enjoyed the system as a player, but less so as a GM. I'm definitely going to keep going with it to continue to hone my skills and "learn the system", which is odd since it's so rules lite but so style heavy.
29:42
There are:
7 lv 10 monsters.
2 lv 11
5 lv 12
3 lv 13
1 lv 14
2 lv 15
5 lv 16
2 lv 17
1 lv 18
2 lv 19
Pre watch hype!
Mothership does distance well: Adjacent, Close, Long, Extreme
If anyone needs more in depth lore, get the 2e Monster Manual.
0:01 seconds in. GREAT THUMB, clicked right away!
One question is adventure design for like a published module, I can't find the right balance for the players to fight on an adventuring day or like how many encounters they can handle for each day or per level, how would you go for something like that?
I really like a lot of what Shadowdark brings to the 5E/OSR table, Including the designer's unflappable positivity.
The two things I don't like are rolled HP at level one (why invest in the session if you have 1 HP to start?) and the "no hidden rolls" rule. Hiding information from the players is a great DM tool to increase tension and heroic RP. Fudging a to hit roll on that character that keeps having bad luck is NOT a bad thing.
I disagree. As a player it's extremely rewarding to keep your 1 HP character alive long enough to level up, you become very attached to that character. I also don't agree with fudging rolls ever.
With low hit points, the tension in combats are high. You'll find every player waiting anxiously for every roll in combat. I don't hide my rolls, even for 5e. I find players respect the outcome of the dice, even when it goes against them. Remember, this is a different way to play from 5e. Survival is the goal here and make the players understand that deaths are a normal part of the game. Discourage 5 page backgrounds, a paragraph is all you need if even that. 5e is about the character's story ... these games are about living through the adventure!
There is a bag of h9lding and it gives you 10 extra slots If I remember correctly
Thank you for this video. It convinced me that I have no interest in this game so it was valuable to me. I have come to the conclusion that the whole OSR movement seems to boil down to "You know what I really miss about RPGs...the really annoying parts like encumbrance! I also miss dying a lot". I'm pretty old compared to most of you and I actually played all those old-school games and I would rather play games that have moved forward in game theory and mechanics. Newer games (some of them at least) are just plain better TO ME (YMMV) and are more fast paced and make better sense to me. I'm glad we have a large range of game types to meet the needs of lots of different gamers. This type is just not for me.
Same. I started with the red box D&D, and that's what we played because that's what we had, not because it was a good game. I have zero desire to go back to those days, and Shadowdark has done nothing to change my mind 😂
I think the idea of not answering questions not asked pertains more to what players can do. Another words don't suggest to players while you could try using your ten-foot pole to get out of a pit. It doesn't mean don't tell players there is now a growling sound from a monster unless they ask do I hear anything. Portraying the world as it is means letting them know and they sent something new and threatening without them having to ask, and I think the game designer assumed that. It does mean don't say to a player I wouldn't do that if I were you. Is the designer says, let them find their own trouble.
I absolutely hate the WotC stat scaling, I would never in a million years let a first level character have a +4 to anything. If ran as written, you could end up with +5 to hit at first level, which absolutely absurd when first level enemies have like 12-15 ac.
I think anyone wanting a change of pace from 5E should probably leave the D20 mechanics behind , any system, and try something different. All these 'OSR' type clones are just variations of D&D and aren't actually different to me. Try Fantasy AGE, try the first couple editions of Warhammer, try Genesys, try any other system that gets away from the D20 curve if you truly want something different, otherwise it's just D&D to me. Most of these Shadowdark differences can just be home brewed into 5E easily. Spells might need a little more thought on a GMs part, but it's not building a nuclear reactor with coconuts complicated, and it's also cheaper if someone already has a stack of 5E books.
There are people who dont want to homebrew everything and have disposable income for books. And yes, of course they are D&D clones, they never claim to be something different. I am not sure what you are arguing against here.
I don’t understand how buying a $20 PDF is cheaper than studying the PHB, designing and playtesting a massive homebrew ruleset, then writing it in way that players can understand.
@@TheOriginalDogLP One of the main points of the video is how it's different then D&D, and the differences are pretty minor, aside from the spells. Most of the differences cited are very simple tweaks to 5E. I'm not arguing or telling anyone anything, I am stating my opinion, which is what was asked for by Mike. What are you doing to contribute to that?
@@johnmickey5017 If someone is already playing 5E I am of couse assuming they already have some level of investment in the product, so it's cheaper because $20 more would be $20 more for what I think are pretty minor rule changes in 5E. I point out magic is a different line of thought, although implementing an Arcana check when you use a spell in 5E, and maybe reducing the number of spells known isn't what I would call 'massive', I just wrote it in a single sentence.
@@johnmickey5017 I mean if $ is the only concern, you can homebrew all day to get the same result. I think for the vast majority of adults though, time is MUCH more precious a resource than 20 or 50 or 200$ is. I COULD do dozens of hours of homebrew creating good random tables, but this already has that, it's succinct, playtested, has lore, has adventures, has dungeons, all of it.
I would argue against opinionated/lots of diffrent way to play 5e statement. The machanics that are actually flushed out are going to push towards a certain play style. 5e gives the appearance of not giving a damn but in my experience the players don’t want high danger, they feel cheated. They expect to be gods.
If you're going to run a gauntlet in this, for it to be fun, you have to have the Dungeon Crawl Classic attitude, and play like it's Paranoia. It's kind of a One-Shot played for laughs sort of game. If you're not into that, a gauntlet is not going to be fun.
Shadowdark is a great system, specifically for players. My players have really enjoyed the pace of character creation and gameplay, which are fast and furious. That said, I have found it to be somewhat cumbersome as a GM because there are lots of rules that are (purposefully) vague; swimming is a good example. If a GM doesn't have experience running B/X style games, they might find themselves at a loss for how to adjudicate a particular rule at the table.
This is typical of all OSR games (which is why it also exists to some extent in 5E). The idea is to not feel pressure to get the perfect rule in a situation that rarely comes up. Just use something that works for the moment and move on to what the game wants to focus on.
@@grahamward7 You've misunderstood what I was saying. Because Shadowdark is pulling a lot of people into their first OSR-style game, they aren't arriving with the same preconceived notions or expectations as someone who has read lots of OSR rulesets. Even having run an extensive number of OSR style games/sessions I was confused by some elements of the rules (e.g. treasure/XP) because they leave so much unsaid/implied.
@@mattbruner5942 But every OSR game has this problem, that is what the previous commentor said. Its in the philosphy of OSR do leave a lot open to GM ruling.
@@mattbruner5942 all good. I just thought it might be helpful.
Hey man, just a little feedback on these TH-cam videos: the thumbnails all look the same and repeat the text the video title already has. I love these videos, but it’s really hard to navigate the channel trying to find one that’s interesting. I recommend making your thumbnails more distinct in color with less text, and even just a single descriptive graphic on it. This would make it a lot easier for people to find a Sly Flourish video that interests them.
I am so mad I didn't have the money for this Kickstarter.
Love your videos, but your title by use of the possessive apostrophe implies ownership - ie that you created Shadowdark. I know it was not intended, keep doing what your doing.
I also am really looking forward to your take on the high fantasy / campaign possibilities with SD. My fear is that some areas such as character creation, choices of abilities when leveling, etc turn this more into a meat grind than 1st edition did.
Looks interesting, but some weird grammar in the book. For example the Archdevil's soulbind power: "All targets within near DC 20 CHA or fall..." what the heck does that mean? Are the writers not primary-English speakers?
I would read that as “All targets within 30 ft need to pass a DC 20 charisma save or fall…,” but yeah, I get what you are saying. The author has a background in crime journalism, so that probably explains the economic word count. Probability does count as a different language, haha!
Near is a defined game term and should be capitalized and it means within 30ft
"All targets within near" defines the target of the action. "DC20 CHA or..." defines the save to avoid the result which is described next. It's thankfully not prose, so that the stat blocks are quickly usable during the game.
I think it is just shorthand to keep stat blocks small. Just the information you need is presented.
8 minutes in and I can already tell that it ain't gonna be good.
Torche as mecanic to push forward : It can work but it also can and will create frustration as roleplaying a gritty individual able to face those odds and being one are completely different situation. You cannot expect from your players unless they are veteran of hardcore type of ttrpg to keep such a pace in the long run.
Random "everything" : No. If the goal is to prevent mini maxing then it only mean you're diagnosing something as a disease when it isn't one in the first place. If the goal is to play a rogue like or rogue light ? Then video game will do better then any ttrpg hands down. Also trying to present the scaling down of health as an inherently good thing is also kind of funny it mean you could literally have a 6 hit point minotaur which is completely asinine. The same goes for the damage. It increases the amount of luck in your game to such an extent that the game can be summarized as gambling but with a story attached.
And, in case this hasn't hit you on the head yet, player want the consequence to be the result of their decision making first and foremost, luck is meant to be secondary not primary. If you want to gamble you do not need any specific game for that that hasn't been developed already, we even have special places for that called casinos.
Torch mechanics are easier and more fun to track than rolling for it, adds unique type of tension that can also effect play at the table to be fast paced. Random everything is so its quick and easy to make a character and less nerving to die. Think like old arcade games like mario where you start over in 1:1 each time you die and you try to get deeper into the game per $0.25.
Luck is when you attempt something risky, if you attempt something without risk, there is no punishment for your decisions.
Lower HP doesn't mean no scaling, just means the saling is single digits and
@@SkittleBombs
It's not about randomness for torches it's about the omnipresent tension being something that cater only to hardcore player and will easily end up being a negative for other people.
Yeah and TTRPG are not supposed to be casinos where you get your fix. wether or not it allows to churn out "characters" quick is beside the point although it is one more negative as it reduce the narrative value of each character precisely because they're made "nice and quick".
Considering how the game is designed anything that has impact will be completely luck based and you know it. Even the use of torches will be based on luck because how and when you use your torches will be the result of tons of decision all linked to luck to an incredible degree so even torches, in the end, has luck in it albeit indirectly.
I don't know how you can think this answer of yours to be any kind of proper rebuttal you're actually proving me right. Even increasing the amount of point I have to leverage.
@@TrueAryador torches going out adds a narrative moment and tension. This is called taste, if you don’t have people who want tension in their games, dont play shadow dark. If you don’t want character death, shadow darks early game is not to your taste.
Doing things with risk involved requires luck to be introduced so you cannot meta game the outcome and let the dice make the trials and tribulations you face more interesting
Tried it, meh, it was a little too bland for me. Worlds Without Number and Knave are my old school vibe games.
"Half-Far"
"wherever you are-point-five"
"It's one demi-near away from half far"
The layout of the book is awful. Makes it difficult to read on my tablet.
How so? Nothing ever goes more than two pages, and the font is a good size and easy to read. I find it's one of the easiest pdfs I've ever read 🤷♂️
The game tries too many things and introduces too many new takes at once; and mostly for the sake of it, from the sounds of it. I’d just go play ANY other OSR game at this point.
Is there or going to be a physical copy of Lazy DM's Companion?