Thank you for this video. Few hams actually use spectrum analyzers in a professional setting, so having a template to use when making their own measurements is helpful. Interesting that you knew about the torque requirements when using SMA connectors!
According to R&L Electronics the TinySA Ultra (for $129) will be back in stock in about a month. The 50 ohm RF attenuators available from Amazon are only available up to 30dB even though their description shows 1 - 40dB.
Good video showing how to use affordable tools to test for spurious emissions. That said, I think you may have gotten tripped up by the same nuance in §97.307(e) that I did when I first started looking at radios for spurs. The rule says "For a transmitter having a mean power of 25 W or less, the mean power of any spurious emission supplied to the antenna transmission line must not exceed 25 µW and must be at least 40 dB below the mean power of the fundamental emission, but need not be reduced below the power of 10 µW." You checked for the second part of the rule "must be at least 40 dB below the mean power of the fundamental". I did the same thing when I first started testing radios. But, the other part of the rule, "must not exceed 25 µW", still applies. 25 µW is -16 dBm. In my testing few radios can meet that part of the rule.
Any brand name mobile or handheld I have ever tested easy reached this level, any Chinese crap radio doesn't. Never use a Chinese crap radio on an external antenna without a low pass filter.
No worries, when I filmed this one the firmware didn't support the harmonics option well enough. My newer vids that do tinySA tests use the latest firmware and the option you mention. Its really nice. @@klejb
There aren't any regulations for 70cm and above. It really depends on what is "nearby" that you'll interfere with, because you won't be putting out much power at that harmonic. Usually the 3rd is the worst
I just got one of these things. And while it is a little bit overwhelming. I figured out most of the basic stuff. For the signal generator It does not seem to be working well on hf frequencies.
You should calibrate out all of the parts you are using to connect to your DUT (device under test). You won't always be able to get them all, but you can get most. I now don't use any coax to connect my radio to the TinySA... But I would still need to use at least one wire to do the calibration. Work with what you can and have fun!
All you have to do is switch the ports since the high port does 300+. You won't see the fundamental, but you'll see the harmonic. Make note of the fundamental's db, check the second, swap ports and check the 3rd.
@@temporarilyoffline Thank you! So the measurements is comparable between the high and low input after calibration. I got some strange measurements when doing as you describe, but I think I was a bit sloppy.
@@Ivarsson68 splitting hairs for science here: "comparable" isn't really the right word - when you're on the high port, you're measuring the 3x145 frequency for what it is. Its just "data". Not arguing, just making sure we're on the same page.
You don't need an attenuator or a dummy load with a power sniffer. You can use an open (no metal shield,) resistor dummy load on the HT, and a small antenna or piece of wire for the TinySA, and key up and look on the TinySA at the difference between the fundamental and the harmonics as detected by the TinySA. Just adjust the proximity of the 2 units till you have clear signals. The key is that you want the fundamental carrier to be 45 dB or better above the noise floor so you can see any illegal harmonics. That's the only critical aspect of such tests. Or you can use the same setup, but with an antenna on the HT, and announce that you are testing, and give your call sign, read the TinySA, then say "Test complete," and sign off with your call sign. If you have a TinySA it's the easiest thing in the world to detect and measure harmonics. They are just the difference in decibels (dB) between the fundamental carrier frequency and the harmonic. You can even measure them on other close by stations over the air. You just need to feed your TinySA a good strong signal from the other station. As long as you can measure the other station's signal 45 or 50 dB above the noise floor so you can see illegal harmonics above the noise floor you're in business. That's it. BTW, you don''t need to calibrate the NanoVNA either. The relationship between the 2 signals will be close enough for this test. Calibration is needed for absolute power measurements, (which is what accurate attenuators are also used for,) while these measurements are relative. - Elmer
@@temporarilyoffline, my apologies. I'm on a new medication that is making me dumb. The ways I described above won't work. While one can 'see' harmonics that way, only a direct connection via attenuators will give accurate dB measurements across the wide range of frequencies involved, as the receiving input must have the same sensitivity at all frequencies being measured. But I'll leave the post up, and this correction, for the benefit of others who may be thinking the same thing.
You can, but the readings would be a bit off - you'd be fighting with front end overload, so even if the radio was "clean", it might still look dirty. My buddy Hayden just did a video on this: th-cam.com/video/xP7r0g8ZFYs/w-d-xo.html
Well, this was enlightening. I did not know of the calibration feature. That's rather important. Now a question. After you calibrate, can you just go on the menu to "Measure" then "Harmonics", then enter your fundamental frequency and it puts it in the middle for you? Will that give you the same results?
Doesn't really matter as long as its between the TinySA and the radio to absorb the power that the TinySA can't handle. In future testing, I've stopped using coax altogether.
To calibrate...use only 1!!!! cable not two especially using the Ultra. The reason being is that with 2 cables harmonics are more attenuated and the tiny is being thrown of. The harmonics used for the regular unit is up to 300Mhz and the ultra up to 3Ghz. This is not a NanoVNA where it matters to have both cables in line for calibration.
“For best measurements keep input power below -25dBm” - tinysaDOTorg One may also combine SMA attenuation devices until the appropriate dBm is achieved.
Read the FCC & ETSI test procedures. These TinySA tests don’t mean anything really- unless it’s tested *with the supplied antenna* in to a log-periodic 3 Metres away the test proves nothing. There’s no need to get quite so wound up about conductive testing - the FCC requires nothing of the sort of HTs. Ultimately it’s what’s radiating that matters, nobody cares about conductive testing as if its getting “lost” by a poor antenna match at x-harmonic it’s not radiating and thus in no way harmful.
@@temporarilyoffline No trouble mate, I’m going to make a video about it - but as far as I can tell conductive testing really isn’t that helpful when you read the test procedures. You can see pretty pictures of the tests on the Knowledge Base too and you can see spurious and harmonics are being tested at 3 metres *with* an antenna. At 300MHz by UV5R standard antenna is about 32:1 so the second harmonic isn’t really as bad as it seems on a conductive test. That’s not to say they all pass and that there aren’t issues, but if it’s not radiating to 3 metres, I don’t think it’s a problem? ETSI procedure is basically the same as FCC.
Great video! It would probably get the Ape stamp of approval!
I hope so!
Thank you for this video. Few hams actually use spectrum analyzers in a professional setting, so having a template to use when making their own measurements is helpful. Interesting that you knew about the torque requirements when using SMA connectors!
I have some trivia knocking around the ole noggin! Thanks!
Short and usefull. Exactly as I like ;) Thanks for video !
You're welcome!
According to R&L Electronics the TinySA Ultra (for $129) will be back in stock in about a month. The 50 ohm RF attenuators available from Amazon are only available up to 30dB even though their description shows 1 - 40dB.
Thanks for the heads up!
@@temporarilyoffline No big deal, just get a 10 or 20db 2w attenuator and put it after the main attenuator
Steve…. Very nice video! Glad you methodically showed the calibration process. 73 de KD6UYK (Tim).
Glad it was helpful!
Good video showing how to use affordable tools to test for spurious emissions.
That said, I think you may have gotten tripped up by the same nuance in §97.307(e) that I did when I first started looking at radios for spurs. The rule says "For a transmitter having a mean power of 25 W or less, the mean power of any spurious emission supplied to the antenna transmission line must not exceed 25 µW and must be at least 40 dB below the mean power of the fundamental emission, but need not be reduced below the power of 10 µW."
You checked for the second part of the rule "must be at least 40 dB below the mean power of the fundamental". I did the same thing when I first started testing radios. But, the other part of the rule, "must not exceed 25 µW", still applies. 25 µW is -16 dBm. In my testing few radios can meet that part of the rule.
Very interesting! I've got some thinking to do.
@@temporarilyoffline at 2.5w= -50dB at 25w= -60dB -40dB is ok if the transmitter is les then 250 mw. :)
Any brand name mobile or handheld I have ever tested easy reached this level, any Chinese crap radio doesn't. Never use a Chinese crap radio on an external antenna without a low pass filter.
Dummy load😂
In the menu you can click "measure" and then "harmonic". Then you just enter your fundamental frequency and you are good to go.
Yep, thanks. Notice the title says "the manual way"
Now I noticed 😊
No worries, when I filmed this one the firmware didn't support the harmonics option well enough. My newer vids that do tinySA tests use the latest firmware and the option you mention. Its really nice. @@klejb
Great video!
Thanks!
Great job Steve
Thanks!
Hello dear, can I use tinysa to measure the power of my gd-88? And swr? And how, today I purchased this tinysa but I don't know how it works for now
There are a million ways to use the TinySA. I'll have more videos coming out on it soon.
An "entry level" TinySA goes up 960Mhz, which would only get you up to the 2nd harmonic of 440Mhz. For practical purposes how high should you go?
There aren't any regulations for 70cm and above. It really depends on what is "nearby" that you'll interfere with, because you won't be putting out much power at that harmonic. Usually the 3rd is the worst
Great video, good explanations!
Thank you!
I just got one of these things. And while it is a little bit overwhelming. I figured out most of the basic stuff. For the signal generator It does not seem to be working well on hf frequencies.
Also the audio monitor function does not work right
That stinks. I still need to try those functions out on mine. This thing can do so much!
When you started calibrating why did you connect both of the leads together instead of just using one to do it? What’s the advantage of that?
You should calibrate out all of the parts you are using to connect to your DUT (device under test). You won't always be able to get them all, but you can get most. I now don't use any coax to connect my radio to the TinySA... But I would still need to use at least one wire to do the calibration. Work with what you can and have fun!
How do you measure the 3:rd harmonic (for example 3x145 MHz) with the TinySA?
All you have to do is switch the ports since the high port does 300+. You won't see the fundamental, but you'll see the harmonic. Make note of the fundamental's db, check the second, swap ports and check the 3rd.
@@temporarilyoffline Thank you! So the measurements is comparable between the high and low input after calibration. I got some strange measurements when doing as you describe, but I think I was a bit sloppy.
@@Ivarsson68 splitting hairs for science here: "comparable" isn't really the right word - when you're on the high port, you're measuring the 3x145 frequency for what it is. Its just "data". Not arguing, just making sure we're on the same page.
As far as I know, those 40dB attenuators are directional! You are feeding the signal into output terminal 🙃
Thanks for the tip!
You don't need an attenuator or a dummy load with a power sniffer. You can use an open (no metal shield,) resistor dummy load on the HT, and a small antenna or piece of wire for the TinySA, and key up and look on the TinySA at the difference between the fundamental and the harmonics as detected by the TinySA. Just adjust the proximity of the 2 units till you have clear signals. The key is that you want the fundamental carrier to be 45 dB or better above the noise floor so you can see any illegal harmonics. That's the only critical aspect of such tests.
Or you can use the same setup, but with an antenna on the HT, and announce that you are testing, and give your call sign, read the TinySA, then say "Test complete," and sign off with your call sign.
If you have a TinySA it's the easiest thing in the world to detect and measure harmonics. They are just the difference in decibels (dB) between the fundamental carrier frequency and the harmonic. You can even measure them on other close by stations over the air. You just need to feed your TinySA a good strong signal from the other station. As long as you can measure the other station's signal 45 or 50 dB above the noise floor so you can see illegal harmonics above the noise floor you're in business. That's it.
BTW, you don''t need to calibrate the NanoVNA either. The relationship between the 2 signals will be close enough for this test. Calibration is needed for absolute power measurements, (which is what accurate attenuators are also used for,) while these measurements are relative. - Elmer
Thanks for the info John
@@temporarilyoffline, my apologies. I'm on a new medication that is making me dumb. The ways I described above won't work. While one can 'see' harmonics that way, only a direct connection via attenuators will give accurate dB measurements across the wide range of frequencies involved, as the receiving input must have the same sensitivity at all frequencies being measured. But I'll leave the post up, and this correction, for the benefit of others who may be thinking the same thing.
@johnwest7993 thanks John, feel better soon!
Hi , could you have done this using the TinySA's antenna? . without the need of the attenuator?
Cheers
You can, but the readings would be a bit off - you'd be fighting with front end overload, so even if the radio was "clean", it might still look dirty. My buddy Hayden just did a video on this: th-cam.com/video/xP7r0g8ZFYs/w-d-xo.html
@temporarilyoffline cheers m8 , just easier to test an am/ ssb cb radio quickly for a spike /carrier when buying a second hand radio.
Cheers m8.
@@andrewverran3498 definitely good for that! I use it to find all the signals around me, hunt for interference, etc. it's a fun tool
@@temporarilyoffline buying attenuators is like falling into the rabbit hole 🕳 ..totally sux.
@@andrewverran3498 it's all a rabbit hole man, just embrace it 😎
Well, this was enlightening. I did not know of the calibration feature. That's rather important. Now a question. After you calibrate, can you just go on the menu to "Measure" then "Harmonics", then enter your fundamental frequency and it puts it in the middle for you? Will that give you the same results?
Yes, I've been meaning to make another video about it. So much other shiny stuff has gotten in the way! 🤣
A dummy load? Is that when you forget to enter -40db attenuation?
Yess!
I thought the attenuator needed to be on the radio end, so the wire doesn't get heated?
Doesn't really matter as long as its between the TinySA and the radio to absorb the power that the TinySA can't handle. In future testing, I've stopped using coax altogether.
Can the tinysa be used to find drones?
Sure could
To calibrate...use only 1!!!! cable not two especially using the Ultra. The reason being is that with 2 cables harmonics are more attenuated and the tiny is being thrown of. The harmonics used for the regular unit is up to 300Mhz and the ultra up to 3Ghz. This is not a NanoVNA where it matters to have both cables in line for calibration.
Thanks for the tip!
“For best measurements keep input power below -25dBm” - tinysaDOTorg One may also combine SMA attenuation devices until the appropriate dBm is achieved.
Thanks Markus!
Excellent!
Many thanks!
The TINYSAULTRA 100kHz-5.3GHz Spectrum Analyzer 4" Touchscreen is back in stock at R&L Electronics. $129.95 before tax.
Thanks for the tip!
Very cool, I like actual "scientifical" video's. :)
Would this work on my NanoVNA-F ?
Nope, completely different purposes
@@temporarilyoffline dang it. Thanks Steve.👍
Just got mine and it fails Cal... Not going to bother...Kind of hit an miss...Did not expect to be a HP...;)
If it fails with either cable, time for a return!
@@temporarilyoffline It passed this time and it works great. I had to give a good twist to one of the SMA connectors...
@@solarflare4259 excellent! These things are a bit finicky when it comes to lose cables!
2nd again....
Still counts :-D
Read the FCC & ETSI test procedures.
These TinySA tests don’t mean anything really- unless it’s tested *with the supplied antenna* in to a log-periodic 3 Metres away the test proves nothing.
There’s no need to get quite so wound up about conductive testing - the FCC requires nothing of the sort of HTs.
Ultimately it’s what’s radiating that matters, nobody cares about conductive testing as if its getting “lost” by a poor antenna match at x-harmonic it’s not radiating and thus in no way harmful.
Thanks for the info!
@@temporarilyoffline No trouble mate, I’m going to make a video about it - but as far as I can tell conductive testing really isn’t that helpful when you read the test procedures. You can see pretty pictures of the tests on the Knowledge Base too and you can see spurious and harmonics are being tested at 3 metres *with* an antenna.
At 300MHz by UV5R standard antenna is about 32:1 so the second harmonic isn’t really as bad as it seems on a conductive test.
That’s not to say they all pass and that there aren’t issues, but if it’s not radiating to 3 metres, I don’t think it’s a problem?
ETSI procedure is basically the same as FCC.
Tres bien, mais vous parlez trop vite, et allez trop vite dans votre démonstration
Thanks!