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British Cavalry Swords: The 1853 And 1864 Patterns In Context
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 เม.ย. 2020
- The British 1864 pattern cavalry sword replaced the 1853 pattern... Or did it? In this video I examine the mystery of where all the 1864 patterns have gone and whether the 1864 pattern really replaced the 1853 pattern in general use.
Swords of the British Army, Robson (Amazon UK): amzn.to/3e97Hiw
The British Cavalry Sword, Dellar (Amazon UK): amzn.to/2RmcUtO
![[UNCUT] หวั่นขาดความเชื่อมั่น ศาล รธน. วินิจฉัยคดีถอนถอนนายกฯ เศรษฐา | คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ | 14 ส.ค. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8hKvQe_vh3o/mqdefault.jpg)
I firmly believe that when the zombie apocalypse beaks out that Matt could outfit his entire neighbourhood with sabres and not even make a dent in his collection.
I thought I was in a sword shop,
Melee weapons in general would be useless because of infectious fluids
He needs to sell some of them. I blame Patreon!
You actually think your audience will be put off by minutiae?
Man, that's why we watch you! Please continue.
You see that well into the modern day. During WWII, the US Army adopted the M1943 uniform in, somewhat obviously, late 1943. It consisted of trousers, a field jacket with separate liner, a sweater, and the new double-buckle boots (among other items, but this is the core of the new uniform). This uniform isn’t seen in wide usage in the ETO until Operation Market Garden in late 1944 and some divisions (the 28th ID for instance) never received the new uniform in great number before the war was over. Many units received some pieces, but not the whole thing. Military logistics are more complicated than producing the item and having it magically appear in the hands of soldiers.
I feel like I'm being, "deconstructed with age". It sounds better than falling to bits.
Matt, "I'll be brief..." Twenty-four and a half minutes later, "... its all about the guard."
Fascinating stuff as usual.
😅😆
If it's the same: Why should I bother upgrading?
If it's different: Why should I go to the trouble of replacing something familiar that does the job?
In Canada we see 1853. 64, 82 and ‘90 pattern swords in excellent condition due to lack of use but this gives us excellent examples showing original blade polish etc.
I concur; I have an 1890 and an 1899 that, while not in "unissued" condition, could easily be used today and would pass "parade-muster" if the inspecting officer didn't get any closer than 10-15 feet! 😁
Agree with your comment on the use of the 1953 sword in the 1979 Zulu War. I purchased an 1853 (REEVES) cavalry troopers sword about 20 years ago near Cape Town, South Africa. The inside/top of the guard is marked with the date 2/1979 and N6RA, for N Battery 6th Brigade Royal Artillery who served in the Zulu War at the Battle of Ulundi. It is also stamped C/I\G, Cape Government. The blade is marked REEVES on the back and a crown B/13 near the hilt.
Honestly, sounds like one of those situations we see with some modern weapons. 'This is the new super awesome improvement.' Roll out in small numbers to a few units to test. Possibly keep some elements as modifications of the existing model, but in the end only those units ever actually get the real deal. At least here in the US we've been doing that with rifles since the 60's at the very least...not sure if we're actually going to STOP and switch fully to a new weapon or just keep altering things incrementally ever at this point. If it isn't popular, or simply is deemed too expensive for the amount of gain, just don't bother continuing the procurement orders.
Yeah, if its just an slightly upgraded version it may just as well be introduced on an ”as needed”-plan. That is when a blade breaks or othewise needs to be replaced its done with the new pattern. But up til then everyone keeps the old verision.
I love the second saber with the Maltese cross. The grip looks comfortable.
Hi there. The second sword you are talking about at was probably an officers sword from one of the Scottish Yeomanry units. I am the trumpet major of the Scottish and North Irish Yeomanry an Army reserve unit based In Edinburgh. I have an 1885 pattern Cavalry sword which was used extensively by Yeomanry units all over the country. The one I have is a troopers sword made in1886 by Wisberg Kirshbaum and Cle. It has the same basket decoration as your sword and a war department arrow stamp and all the blade proofing stamps . I can show you photos of this sword. It is used on all our ceremonial parades and is in excellent condition for a sword that is130 ish years old. I have also done mounted skill at arms with it.
Kind regards
S/Sgt Kieran Forsyth
Trumpet Major/ Master Saddler
SNIY
Edinburgh
Well, Matt, after very many, many videos, you finally managed to bore the socks off of me. No matter, I'll still watch every new offering.
I suspect that the attachment a soldier has with their sword might've played a part in the lack of proliferation with the 1864 pattern. After all, I can imagine that once I get used to the weight and balance of a particular patter of sword, I'd be extremely reluctant to exchange it with a newer model sword which could differ in all these aspects. And when my life's on the line, I'd rather go with the blade with which I am most familiar instead of trying to break in a replacement.
You labor under the belief that an enlisted soldier has a choice in the matter. They do not, they use what is provided. Officers have "some" choice, but come Parade the officer had better match closely enough.
@@EldarKinSlayer I labor under no such belief. If enlisted soldiers are forced to reequip to the new standard issue, that's one thing, but I know there's a tendency amongst soldiers in general to go with the weapon whose weight, length and handling are most familiar. We see this in modern times as well. Take, for example, when the Marine Corps switched from the Colt 1911 to the Beretta M9 as their standard issue sidearm, a large section of the USMC refused to equip the M9 in favor of the 1911, not out of an inability to acquire the M9, but out of personal preference. And if you had paid closer attention to what I wrote, I stated that this tendency may have played a part, not that it had solely contributed to the lack of proliferation fo the 1864 pattern.
@@julianadeau5797 except in Special Forces the enlisted man's opinion in what they carry counts for less than nothing. If it did the US Military would never have adopted the M16. It would also mean the US Army would not be experimenting with a new 6,5mm cartridge.
@@EldarKinSlayer I agree. Having been in the Marines I can say unequivocally that as an enlisted man, even as an officer below the rank of General, you have 0 choice in what weapon you are issued and can use. While the Corps as an institution resisted the change over from the 1911 to the M9, that doesn't mean that the individual Marine had any choice. When it came time to switch over, the next time you went to the armory to draw a pistol, you would have been given an M9 in place of the 1911 that you used to draw, simple as that.
The same thing would have almost certainly have applied to the cavalry trooper back in the 1800s. An enlisted trooper was issued his sword by his regiment and when a new pattern comes out and the regiment decides to adopt it, the officers are going to make damn sure to collect all of the old pattern swords from the troopers and in return issue them the new one. And if a trooper refused to turn their old sword, they probably would have been disciplined in some way, at the very least fined the cost of their old sword.
Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if a good number of officers simply had their swords fitted with a new hilt and guard since, in this case, that was the only difference between the old pattern and the new pattern sword.
@@julianadeau5797 That's true, but in this period the swords were held by the regimental armoury and dispensed as and when they were needed. If a regiment acquired new swords, they would be issued to the men as soon as they were available; the enlisted trooper wouldn't have access to the old ones, which would be mothballed in the regimental stores.
You know what would be cool and something I haven't found yet on TH-cam? One video that talks about all the British military saber patterns, along with their pros and cons.
Longgg
Actually had a 1864 pattern i found in a jumble store in Durban South Africa for less than 30 pounds. Sold it when I needed cash, for 400 pounds. Still miss it. Hopefully, someday, I can collect another. Knowledge is power. thanks for the great video.
6 words. Say them and I’m yours: “Hey folks, Matt Easton here. Scholagladiatoria”
Underrated.
Maybe that was how he proposed to Lucy.
On the ship I was on had M14s and Ithaca shotguns in old school configurations. I've heard of marines rocking the duck tail rifle since it was available. It's possible that the old guard officers said keep their old stuff till it breaks.
Everyone saying "oh, it's because soldiers wouldn't want to switch"
1) all of the same points you're making apply to the 1853 replacing previous patterns, and as Matt said, the 1853 was only around for about a decade (not long, by British pattern standards). The 1821 was around for 30 years, and yet it was successfully phased out for the 1853
2) as others have stated, private soldiers (aka enlisted) did not have a choice. They were issued their blades by the military. officers had more leeway, but not a lot, and the vast majority of swords made were for enlisted.
My assumption is that quartermasters looked at the two swords, basically the same, and decided to save some money by not bothering to update the weapons.
I'm very interested in how these manufacturers like Wilkinson exactly made the swords. Did they forge every blade by hand or did they use forging dies. Can you give an in-depth description of the making process? I'm actually professionally interested, so details would be great.
Check out these little beauties. Got to love that their all wearing a shirt, tie and vest.
I love this ones 'power hammer', and you cant go past old tom 1946
th-cam.com/video/Wyk1NQZ9FqM/w-d-xo.html
Making the Eisenhower sword 1946. Silent but shows more indepth aspects
th-cam.com/video/7YbwDFwF3NY/w-d-xo.html
1955 in colour, i like mrs may fry (the only woman in the industry)
th-cam.com/video/K8kJiydhRHg/w-d-xo.html
1965 casting hilts and handle, the rollers are wicked. They use whale oil then moultern lead to quench.
th-cam.com/video/XtpMAUf65UQ/w-d-xo.html
Hope this was as good for you as it was for me when i found them
Heres a bonus traditional American pioneer axe making. The sit on grinder is my favorite
th-cam.com/video/Qr4VTCwEfko/w-d-xo.html
The first half of this video is super fun! Not that this is an area that I have any very specific interest in compared to other sword-related issues - but seeing someone talking about something with such passion, is always great.
I remember reading somewhere that the major complaint of the P.1864 sword was that of the hilt which damaged the trooper’s tunics. To rectify that problem, they cut away the inner edge to lessen the chafing on the uniform.
I have seen at least 1 or 2 "Canadian" examples of this!
I really enjoy most of your content but this video was particularly interesting. Thanks Matt!
I was watching with my earpieces on when a friend tapped my shoulder and asked me, why did he flip the bird? I was like what? Then I saw it at 20:13 I guess this is what happens when you see things out of context haha
You can't forget context.
Thank you for this fantastic tutorial.
Looking forward to see special regulation Cold stream guard swords of the Crimea.
In context: An autobiography by Matt Easton.
First chapter is about how he decided to sit down and write his life story today, with lots of obscure detail that he promises to talk about later. All other chapters are just trying to explain the decisions outlined in the first chapter.
@@johnladuke6475 In the preface, it explains that he'll try to keep it short.
Maybe the army shrunk down in size after the Crimean war, so not as many swords were required in the 1860s than the 1850s?
Highly informative video ! Thanks a lot Matt :)
A video on Lifeguard cavalry swords :)
On the whole, makes me suspect that regiments weren't *required* to switch, just that they were *able* to get the new pattern. Perhaps they didn't go out the door to a regiment until they actually requisitioned a new batch of swords, and then ta-da, a slightly different pattern comes out of the box when it arrives. If the 1853 hadn't universally replaced the 1821 in the middle of a war when it was perceived to be a vast improvement, there might not have been much drive to make the swap in peacetime.
How long does it generally take for the new patterns to arrive at the regiments? Especially if they're stationed outside of the British Isles.
Arthurian Knight I’ve often wondered that myself.
It depended on when that pattern was issued.
Before the Cardwell reforms whole regiments could be stationed outside the UK for extended periods of time and they would not generally be ree quipped whilst abroad, it was expensive to transport whole regiments prior to steamships and the opening of the Suez Canal and rendered them unavailable for service until they had regained fitness after their long voyage.
After Cardwell's 1870/1871 reforms most regiments had two regular battalions, one would be in depot training and reequipping as necessary, whilst the other could be anywhere. The battalions would be rotated regularly so there equipment would be fairly up to date provided the regiment had adopted it.
With the rapidly increasing speed of transport it became possible to send new equipment out however it's not until WW1 that new equipment starts to be issued to regiments in the field in large quantities.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot Deng, so there were probably cases where entire campaigns were fought with older equipment and uniforms.
@@arthurpendragonsyt Yes! I'm currently trying to find out to what extent this was the case for the Royal Fusiliers during the British Expidition to Tibet of 1903/4.
Different regiments on the same campaign can also be equipped differently even today. It's happened in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Two possibilities. Many regiments didn't like the 1864 because of of the wear it would cause to uniforms and officers didn't want to look that out of step just for the sake if a change if hilt. That private purchase 1864 may have been for a post Cardwell reform warrant officer or commission from the ranks which would place it into an extremely limited time frame before the later pattern was issued, perhaps accounting for its rarity.
Damn it! Now I want one of each!
even though this is indeed a very specific topic, Matt makes anything interesting.
I would like to see the actual cost to the units of the 1864 with the new guard verse the 1863 guard. If it was 4p MORE per sword....
I got a 1853cavalry trooper sword on one side it's got a crown and b and 13 ex on and on the over side it's got a 10/78 and a small 46 stamp on it but no maker's mark
an odd one recently sold at auction, an 1864p but has the rolled edge of the 1882p, went relatively high £
Matt would you consider the officierized version of the 64 equal to the 1821/1896 heavy cavalry swords ?
My old Yeomanry regiment took their 1885 Pattern swords to war in 1914.
Cavalry Lance designs have a history, for Matt to bring alive.
15:33 - A question from a lefty: how many british pattern swords had regulation symmetrical guards?
Would a possible reason for the lack of 1864 pattern swords today is simply attrition? As described, they were supposed to be used for over 20 years. Especially with a ready supply of 1853 pattern swords, it was deemed not economical to order new batches of 1864 pattern swords?
Oh how some things never change...The US Military can still takes years to fully adopt new equipment. (Not to mention over & under issue of certain equipment in equal measure) lol
Sort of o.t. but have you ever had difficulty sharpening a sabre? I have a (rather poor) reproduction of one in terms of balance but it is not bad, but I've had difficulty getting it to cut well and take an edge, tho it thrusts wickedly. Stores are kind of limited now so all I have is a grinding wheel, sandpaper, files, and sharpening stones. I'm not having much luck with the hand tools should I risk the grinder?
That's a lovely sword.
Who bore the cost of re-equipping troopers with new swords? My understanding is that at one point, regimental colonels would have been responsible, and may have been reluctant to pay for re-arming their entire regiment.
sorry off topic but has anyone tried a kickboxing tournament in full plate armour ?
This just made the video off topic.
I really like the guard design
Hi Mat, an interesting theory and possibly with significant merit. Can you please present some of the primary source evidence to support your assertion? Many thanks.
Very interesting as usual Mr. Easton - thank you. I haven't come across many 1864s either so I think you have a strong case there.
On a different but related topic have you come across much of the 1886 pattern Prussian trials Versuchsdegen (sabel/sabre or actually sword) and its influence on the British 1908 pattern cavalry troopers sword? I realise the information is long gone/lost/bombed out, but I just wondered what your thoughts might be?
I do think shirt and tie should be worn in all videos about victorian swords. It looks much more in line with the swords.
Another Schola video watched en garde. Sound historical and martial information (to the best of my knowledge), as always. I really like that Wilkinson grew out of Henry-Knox's gun making business. Shame they didn't keep making both, right up through the Modern epoch to today. I might be using English weapons!
Could 1864s have been modified en-mass to the newer versions- re-hilted, etc? Could that explain the scarcity?
the 1853 entered mass production just in time for the Crimean War. I'm sure production was massive and a lot of very low use swords were left come 1856 and units just used those instead of the 1860s patterns. US Army National Guard used 1945ish production guns into the 1970s for the same reason.
Question: When an officer wanted an 1895 hilt put on an 1845 blade did they buy new or send their sword off for an upgrade? If upgrade did they just use a different sword while waiting?
I'm happy to be corrected... In a duel!
What is a price of British antique sword from early century in good condition or with rebuild guard ?
I'm curious .
I Am by no means an expert, but are affordable depending on how common a model is. I would say $250-$500, maybe more, maybe less. Easton Antique Arms has had affordable models as well as Fagan Arms.
@@mallardtheduck406
Thanks . That's British Pounds of course ?
If regiments stocked up on 1853's for the Crimean war and had plenty leftover, why spend money replacing or rehilting them?
@scholagladiatoria Very interesting video. Do you know what version of sword was carried by the 17th Lancers and 1st Dragoon Guards in Zululand in 1879?
Almost certainly the 1853.
Details make all the difference.
Only thing missing is a brief explanation of the 1885 and why that change was successful when the 1864 had not been so.
Where can you buy a good quality 1853 or 1864 pattern sabre.
What do you consider as the altogether best pattern British military sabre?
Under what context is 5 greater than 5? He says that the 1864 has more pins in the handle than the 1853. Yet both have 5 pins visible. The pins are arranged differently (2-1-2 vs. 3-1-1).
Edit: At 18:49 he shows them side-by-side.
Very nice topic! More please!
It is interesting to watch this video and at the same time hold in hand pattern 1853 sabre(.../sword?). Video is much better this way...
My 1853 pattern is stambed: W.S.Y 357. What is this?
Good timing on this video. I just recently posted some photos of an 1890 pattern cavalry sword I cam across on the military and classical sabre group on FB. Same design-ish as the 1864 but with some "improvements." That particular example has etching on just the left side of the blade but in all other ways it appears to be a typical troopers sword. It has multiple issued dates too which I think lends weight to it not being a private purchase, but I have no idea why there would be etching on a troopers sword? Do you have any idea as to what could be going on here? Thank you!
i am trying to buy a sword but the seller does not know enough about it to give me a price .. it is some kind of sabre with a etched or scroll worked blade and a brass hilt . looks pretty old . can i send you a photo ? its definetly a sabre of some kind , pretty light
How can you manage to memorise so much information?
I bet most regiments didn't take up the '64 because the '53's were fine and the '64's (to them) just didn't look very attractive, compared to the gorgeous sweeping lines of the 3 bar hilt.
Looks like that 1864 Pattern has a distally tapered tang, no? Classy! Although, I could be underestimating how common this is on 19th century military swords. Both of my 2 swords have concealed tangs, so I don't even know what they have in terms of tapering. Regarding the '53 Pattern: Is it possible that it was more desirable because it had seen combat in the Crimean War? Is it possible that the '64s were sold to the American military in the last year or so of our Civil War?
~22:00 minute. Officers were distinguishing themselves from other troops until snipers started deliberately shooting them.
Amazing vid any chance of the same kinda thing but for 1650 ish
That 1864 guard looks thick. How thick it is, matt?
Hi Matt, I'm sure it was you're other 1864 I got last year, I've always wanted to ask if the fixed rings on the scabbard were a later modification to bring it in line with the 1885/90 patterns?
Is there any as detailed information in your arsenal about military swords 90-100yrs older?
@21:42 - 55.5 inch blade! I believe you meant 35.5"?
Just imagine Matt, an abandoned warehouse full of 1864 pattern swords, wouldn't that be a find. When all this nonsense is over, I'm going to have a good look at Easton Antiques and purchase a nice sword.
You had me at "pattern"
Were any of the 1864 swords sold to the US?
Maybe they shipped off all the 1864s to allies? That happens with US weapons sometimes. The entire stock gets sent to a different country.
You want to replace my as used by the light brigade sword with a new one, no thanks.
Why did Wilkenson swords go out of business, being an American, even I was aware of Wilkinson swords as a young child being a sword fanatic.
War... War has changed
Sadly in 2005.
As far as i know, some oft the Wilkinson saber machinry is still in use, by the german WKC company (Weyersberg, Kirschbaum u. Cie.).
Is it possible the swords were simply lost at sea while in transit? If you could find shipping records that may shed some light on the mystery.
Shipping records could help regardless, they could identify if the swords were sent out as a trickle, or as a flood.
"Lost at sea" might be feasible for one or two regiments' worth of swords. But for thousands of swords, produced in factories all over Britain, over a period of 20 years? That seems like a stretch.
@@Philistine47 Well we're talking about an age when getting things to the other side of the world took half a year, and production levels weren't as high as they might be today. They would ship them in larger batches and any that were lost may never be replaced, just due to logistics. Either way shipping records will shed light on the mystery.
sometimes regiments only march on paper...….
MAY BE THE SHIPMENT WENT DOWN AT SEA ?___NOT YELLING GPING BLIND .
Ooo this should be good.
Hey who were you flipping off sir? Oh that's just the international hand gesture indicating a through tang on cavalry sabers!
During the American Civil War they used the 1864p and without inspection markings.
Will Notnow The 1853 pattern was exported to the US during the ACW. Not the 1864
@@johnspettell1853 actual examples sourced in the US without British inspection marks say otherwise
Awwwww, not The British 1864 pattern cavalry sword again!!!!
So were they still using the 1853 during the Zulu wars?
Yes
@@scholagladiatoria thank you im surprised the 1853 is still being used as late as 1879
@@lionheart3916 I imagin that they would still be making that pattern for a long while
@@kitrose1001 yeah i suppose so you dont really hear much about sword use during the zulu war
Noice
Just kidding!
It's because they weren't fucking relivent. Guns were the new hotness. They were what were the thing. Swads had literally thousands of years for this to get good. Guns needed to get good. Swords were swords. Nothing needed to be perfected. Just minor tweaks. That's it
Say "in theory" one more time... I dare you...
First.
Absolutley annoying how the sound wobbling back and forth between the two channels. Makes your videos almost entirely unwatchable.