This guy somehow knows all of our personal experiences that would otherwise be unnoticed by most people Thanks a lot for helping me through life and how to not get entangled in abuse and teaching me about people.
He is a therapist after all, he's seen much. Edit: thinking back on my history of 100% bad therapists, I need to amend that has a GOOD therapist that's willing to listen and work with his clients instead of belittling them and talking about themselves and their history of drug and alcohol addiction for the first 5 sessions like mine did. Mind you, I was 13 at the time. The first alcohol I had in my life (after becoming legal) was 2 months ago).
I second this. Male abusers are numerous . Similarly female abusers are numerous. Psychology seeing female abuse of males validates our experiences and helps us put our experiences into words
It’s important to realize BOTH sexes abuse A LOT. In general, women abuse emotionally but it gets physical more than people realize. We all know men abuse but usually turn to violence sooner. I feel for everyone abused by men but I also feel for those abused by women. Whether it is physical or emotional they are both just as damaging.
Something missing from your analogy between the narcissist and the black hole. Throwing stars into a black hole doesn't fill it, it feeds the hole and grows it wider and deeper. Narcissists become worse when they have someone to feed on.
It sounds like it reinforces the idea that people are only there to "feed" them, to be controlled by them or otherwise used for their own personal interests.
Yuri Hageshi I think you’re thinking of neutron stars or other stars there chief. Black holes don’t collapse when they consume too much, but they do constantly emit energy via Hawking radiation until they just disappear, which I think is even better for the analogy, as not only do these people eventually become nonexistent, but when they do exist they constantly emit a uniform amount of energy which speeds up the process of entropy, chaos itself.
A black hole is the most collapsed state there is. It can't collapse further, it's already shrunk to nothing and fallen below the event horizon. A normal star is held up by electromagnetic forces. When it becomes too dense and gravity overcomes electromagnetism, the star is crushed into a neutron star. A neutron star is held up by the weak nuclear force. When it becomes too dense and gravity overcomes the weak force, the neutron star is crushed into a quark star. A quark star is held up by the strong nuclear force. When it becomes too dense and gravity overcomes the strong force, it collapses into a black hole. And that's all of the forces. There are no other forces which can act anymore. Gravity wins, completely and utterly, and the star falls into itself. Forever. Nothing is left to stop it, not even hitting the "middle". It keeps going down even after that.
I am the empath. My first husband was the abuser. He used my empathy against me until the day he threatened suicide and i offered to get a knife for him to do. That was a day of real personal growth. His expression turned to disgust and asked if i was crazy. A few days later he stole all my cash, birth certificate, a tv, credit card etc and left town. He pays his back child support but i haven't seen him since the day he left. The interesting thing is i only said it because i was exasperated. He had tried to commit suicide a few times before and i always took him serious. The look on his face and the tone of his voice brought me around to realize my emotions were being used to control me. That was 32 years ago, his absence is the best gift i ever gave myself
"...he threatened suicide and i offered to get a knife for him to do." That's seriously gangsta! Congrats on getting out. "Some people spread happiness wherever they go, and some people spread happiness whenever they *go* ."
@@DrownedInExile Late to the party but I enjoy the quote. I also like the one that says "I'd like to help you out -- which way did you come in?" To a certain type. Very little patience for ignorance.
@@brydie191 "Empaths" don't exist in clinical practice, as far as I know. It is a pop psychology term, usually used by people who might think of themselves as superior to others in terms of empathy, morality, etc...I've read articles from some analysists who even think someone calling themselves empat could actually mean they have high traits of narcissism or actually being a narcissist. Of course we can't judge this individual based on one comment.
Yip. In my mind I was a martyr when I broke contact with people to "teach" them a lesson. In reality I was triggered to relive a trauma and shielded myself from more triggers and unnecessarily hurt and confused people with my displaced reaction. I apologized to some of them, but never told them I would do better. I broke their trust and I'm only starting to have the trust in myself that I can do better and it's a long way before that's the new habit. Words would be empty and only put pressure on myself to force my progress. I can only hope that my actions will rebuild some of the trust I lost and the pain I caused fades into the background and that I can someday confidently say it is a thing of my past.
@@pauljimerson8218 Thanks! Yeah, I am making progress. I have been for quite some years and I'm finally confident enough to know that it's not just temporary but that I have built a solid basis to build on and fall back on, no matter what happens. With the help and support from medication, professionals and friends and family of course. And a lot has happened in those years and I found that I really have a solid basis and I'm much stronger than I had ever expected I could be. I'll always be aware of myself. I have to keep myself in order to maintain balance for "maximal profit", so to speak :) I'm still a sensitive wuss who's easily thrown off balance and that's just my genetic make up. So I have to keep an eye on myself to rest and eat well for the rest of my life, but it's finally not a constant struggle to do so, just to be able to function. I now do that because it allows me to enjoy life and be there for others and it helps me get up quicker in case I am thrown off balance, because that will and does happen, a lot, but I'm no longer afraid of it. Through the years I've learned I have an easier time accepting it, especially because I am very aware of the triggers I choose to allow and why I allow them. I no longer blame myself for feeling awful; I just make sure it's worth it and then treat myself well, pretty much the same way I would when I'm having a flu :) Eat well, rest up, drink lots of fluids and before you know it, you're ready to rock again :D
"Endlessly explaining to abusers how they make you feel has no positive effect." I'm close to tears now haha. This really struck a chord with me. You helped me get out of one of the worst and most abusive relationships I could have ever imagined. Thank you for that.
My therapist at some point told me that I need to be more "selfish" sometimes My family didn't really understand depression and always said I was only thinking about myself, which wasn't true, but put a wrong image in my head, just making me feel worse After hearing that from my therapist I started rethinking things
Self care too. I have been having problems about taking care of myself because I just knew how to take care of others and it felt "wrong" taking care of my needs.
Since I've found your channel by chance, my personal life has improved immensely. I left an abusive religious group. I broke up with my un-loving partner. I've started seeing the trappings of my mother and her infantalizing behavior. Thank you for helping me become myself, my real healthy self.
this hit super hard. reminded me of a time when i got high while in an abusive relationship (just weed, but i hallucinate when i smoke for w/e reason) and my hallucination was that i stopped existing when someone wasn't directly addressing me or i wasn't looking dead on in a mirror. fun times (/s)
@@GrayYeonWannabe My first experience with weed was the sensory hallucination that my legs became muddy and I could swing them through each other and the hallucination stopped every time I looked down and saw I was just moving them about half an inch, so obviously I just kept looking up to the sky :p So yeah, hallucinating on relatively mild drugs is entirely possible. Or no drugs at all it's possible as well. I have had this hallucination since forever where I would feel like I was pinching my thumb and index finger together and increasing the pressure far beyond what I could produce or physically endure. I always found that fascinating and just kept doing it. In reality the pressure was exactly the same or sometimes even less but I tensed up the rest of my hand only slightly, but making it seemingly perfectly rigid, giving the illusion that pressure between the two touching fingers increased to a "perfectly rigid" force, which makes as much sense as the colour purple, so your mind starts making shit up to fill in the blanks. I know, it's totally off topic, but hey, enjoy your weird mind :D We all have one :D And yours isn't any weirder than anyone else's :D We're all in this together :D I'm just happy we have people like Theramintrees who can help us make sense of it all. I once was tripping with my girlfriend on what I assume was food poisoning. I felt completely disconnected from the world and thought I would disappear if the world stopped interacting with me. I think this sensation was much like yours. I asked my girlfriend to keep talking with me so I would at least feel as if the world still existed. Phoning a doctor would have been the better choice and we probably could have both died, but we're still alive :) And happily married with 3 children and a dog. No, just kidding. We broke up a couple of years later. We were young and stupid and life happens and choices are made. We had our fun and grew into entirely different people than we were then. She might have saved my life. That's no reason to imprison her for the rest of her life out of sentiment :)
"When you get a look under their (the abuser) suit of armor, and you see there's nothing there." Very chilling sentence, revealing the abuser to be more like an immortal vampire than a human. There is nothing but a black hole that consumes. It consumed before you came along, and will continue when and if you leave.
Aw thanks my friend! And thanks for teaching me the word habibi. Having been initially struck by its phonetic charm, what a delight to then discover its meaning!
@Oh Hai *"There is no feature or quality to sexual activity that makes it importantly different from everything else children are brought to be involved in by their parents and caregivers and therefore treating it differently is unjustified."* There is, actually. We are born unable to feel pleasure from sex. Sexual activity is something that is harmful to immature people, and children each mature at their own pace. Some will be mature early. Others will stay immature until puberty. Others yet are asexual (a bisexual likes both men and women, while an asexual dislikes both), and will never want to have sex all their live. I personally matured early and would have had no problem with sleeping with an attractive woman, for as long as i remember. So i probably matured around five, or even four years old, and i understand that even a child can want and enjoy sex, because i did. However, what about the people that mature slowly, or if you're not attracted by your parents or caregivers? I'm not attracted to my mother, she was and is just too old for my liking. Even though i would have gladly slept with a woman much younger than her, i would have been disgusted to do it with her, and it would have definitely caused psychological harm to me. Furthermore, it would have been even worse if i had to sleep with my father, as i'm repulsed by men. And before you say something like "of course the caregiver of the same sex shouldn't be the one taking care of these things", i haven't said whether i am a man or a woman. Now, how do you know which children have matured early, and what they like? How do you know that the caregiver isn't mistaken about what the child wants, or worse, isn't ignoring it? How do you differentiate between a caregiver that guides the child healthily and happens to luckily be what the child is attracted to, and a caregiver that takes advantage of the child's lack of experience and inability to say no? You can't, especially when you consider that it is easy to force children to lie by threatening them. I have even heard some cults trained their children by setting up false policemen and then punishing the children that told the false policemen about their abuse. Therefore, we must not let caregivers be involved in the sexual activity of the child, because it's a lot less damaging to not have sex when you want to (if it is damaging at all, i had no problem with it), than to have sex when you don't want to.
@Oh Hai [QUOTE]There is no feature or quality to sexual activity that makes it importantly different from everything else children are brought to be involved in by their parents and caregivers and therefore treating it differently is unjustified.[/QUOTE] Wrong, children can't consent correctly. They are incapable of making necessary informed opinions on the topic. Remember the girl that killed herself because she missed her father? In order to meet him again 'she went to heaven' by killing herself. Your arguments are flawed, I dont want to go into that now though.
People would always set me up with guys who needed to be in therapy, as if I could love them back to mental health. My response was, " I didn't break it. I can't fix it. Plus, no ethical therapist would date a patient." It took years for friends and acquaintances to get the hint.
Abusers love the idea of feeding the savior complex and finding people who believe they can "fix" them. It's the carrot tied to the long stick that keep you moving fordward in the wrong direction. I think your friends have good intentions but they are not conscious about their magical thinking.
As a professional whose job it is to teach life skills to a large variety of individuals, it can be really easy for me to get caught up in narcissistic behaviors, whether it's from clients, their families, or sometimes coworkers. After a particularly bad month of cancellations and struggles, it's refreshing to watch a video that makes me take a step back and recognize that some of my clients are heavily resisting learning skills to change narcissistic behaviors, and that I'm not the one who's responsible for changing them. So thank you for posting this now.
I'm glad it's timely for you. And I do think as professionals in 'the trade', it's only human to sometimes have to wrestle with this stuff - some people pull very hard on us don't they! I wish you well.
@@TheraminTrees I discovered your channel some years ago during a tough time, which I thought I'd solve with a relapse into christianity. I was in the middle of reading Augustine's confessions when TH-cam drove me onto your videos. Honestly it wasn't pleasant, seeing you coldly break that fragile tool with which I was hoping to regain some inner stability. Though it did provoke some actual pain, I forced myself to watch for a while. The message sounded true and solid, and you're the one who fished me out of that intellectual dead-end. Which let me continue to tramp on across Ideasland and eventually start to build up a new and efficient personal toolbox, stealing ideas from every system and adhering to none. For those times I remain very fond of your channel. I now keep coming back for the simple pleasure of listening to those sound and superbly pedagogical online conferences that you offer to us. I guess a new-year congratulation might be an occasion as good as any other to express this gratefulness. Greetings from a French listener, all the best to you, whoever you are. :)
I've been conflicted over stepping away from a victim. She's been falling into narcissists traps all her life, she had a strong support system of friends who listened to her, advised her, tried to help, tried to get her into therapy, but over and over again she chose to ignore all of us and chose their abuser over the people who loved her. It's been like this for 15 years. Eventually, one by one people left, feeling drained after years of trying to fix someone who refused to be fixed. Now I'm the last one, and I've been feeling guilt because I want to leave too. This video reassured me in a lot of my emotions, thank you.
*This is my favorite video ever.* I'm a recovering Jehovah's witness. When I left that abusive organization, I thought I could "wake up" those still trapped inside. This video has helped me realize I need to focus on my own codependency. *I can't fix people* THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO.
Glad you're recovering. I often wonder how many JWs out in the world are having that internal epiphany right now and are about to start on that restorative road. Sad that many will remain in that loveless corrosive organisation. But great to see ever-growing thriving communities of ex-members providing a softer landing for the people who do want to change.
In case your haven’t heard of him already, there’s a channel called Telltale and he’s also an ex JW. His main thing is talking about cults and what makes a cult, but he has multiple videos on his life while still on the inside if you’re interested
A few years ago, I was in an emotionally abusive and exploitative relationship. I stayed because I wanted to "fix" their depression and help them with their low self-esteem. All my efforts to do this did absolutely nothing, and all they did was take more and more and cross my boundaries over and over. Eventually one day, after 2-3 years of abuse, I realized during another one of our fights that they called me names and accused me of things I would never say to anyone that I actually loved. It was all a facade. I broke up with them and felt freer and happier than ever, I remember likening it to a bird being freed from their cage. I have a new partner who treats me with respect, and I feel as though I've gained a lot more self-respect since then. This video was very helpful in reprocessing that experience. Thank you so much for your work! Edit: I did want to add another very important part of my experience while being abused was talking to my high school counselor at the time. I was very scared that if I would break up with them, they would commit suicide, and that it would be my fault. They helped me realize that it was entirely out of my hands what they chose to do in the end. That was a bit of a wake-up call, and though I stayed in the relationship for a while after that conversation, it gave me the courage to leave when I realized I'd had enough. I wasn't going to let them continue making my life miserable, especially when regardless of how hard I tried to help, empathize, understand... it didn't matter. And thankfully, they did not kill themselves as a result. Just wanted to put that piece of advice out there in case anyone else is struggling similarly to how I struggled.
Thank you so much for sharing. I feel like I'm going through a similar thing with my boyfriend right now. And I've overlooked all these red flags in pursuit of wanting to help him and love him. But it's so hard because I feel so confused and I do genuinely love him
I once lost a close friend to a terrible conflict. He had a breakup, and was feeling terrible, and i tried to confort him. He was abusive with everyone, but i kept telling myself that it was because of his mental illness, not out of evil intent. One day, i couldn't take it anymore, when i noticed that none of my suffering and effort made any difference. No matter how much i tried to acompany and support him, nothing would change. Thats when the rope snapped, and he sunk down, while i could finally float. It was such a weird feeling that i've never felt before... My emotions shut down. We had an abrupt goodbye through text, and then i felt nothing. I felt hollow and gray, as if my brain could not handle such strong emotional response and simply suspended itself. I went to sleep, without sadness nor joy. Then i woke up the next day, and tried to carry on with my life. Eventually, my feelings came back to me, and the group of friends that was torn appart from this break slowlly crawled back into chatrooms and gatherings. Its a strange mix of guilt and relief, but i assure you that you end up knowing it was the right thing. No need to sacrifice yourself trying to help somebody that doesn't want help.
"I can fix him/her" is often turned as a humoristic way to tell how love is so blinding it makes you act in super stupid ways. But hell, this is not love, this is a representation of the complete chokehold the abusive partner has on their victim. As much as i love dark humor on heavy topics, it makes me look at this joke in a different way.
Religion is an unspiritual person's attempt to be spiritual... to reach God... if you don't have your own relationship with God, religion may help you get started, but if you've tried and can't connect, sticking with religion won't help you. And if you have a relationship with God, you don't need religion. Anyone who slams religion without having a relationship with God is missing perception of that entire landscape. That's why ppl slam ppl who believe in God and think they believe in fairytales - it's like they're both blind and deaf to that dimension... they just can't feel it so they have no idea what we feel. As with all of these processes, it's all about what's going on inside a person, and 1 person's reality is never the same as another's...
@@KatarinaBohtana It CAN be used for that by unscrupulous manipulators, for God hits us right in the feels and we are SO easily weilded by them... Religion is like money, it's JUST a tool, no-one falls in love with their money but they sure learn to love what you can achieve with it and the same applies to religion - i have seen the most beautiful things achieved with "religion" or faith, it's not necessarily an evil thing, but of course wherever there are humans, there is potential for corruption and abuse and the fact is that that is more due to OUR nature and not due to religion itself... we are what we are and religion is just a tool, and if you have a problem with religion, take a good look at the human wielding and and how he is wielding it!!!
@@-JaggedGrace- Possibly... most definitely actually... Like i said, religion is just our attempt to reach and understand something SO MUCH BIGGER than ourselves and we use it like a ladder to reach a higher place so to speak, and get a glimpse of a taller more awesome being. Each person who uses that ladder will come down with a slightly different description of what they saw but no ONE person will have the full description coz some will have used a slightly different style of ladder and placed it somewhere different and hence come back with a slightly different revelation again. Just like any tool, religion yields different results based on the tradesman who picked it up, his skill and experience, his understanding of the limits of that tool and the quality of that tool etc for some tools have better features than others - some use Catholicism, some use Buddhism, some use New Age, some say "bugger this i'll make my own Spirituality". That's why some will drop one tool and pick up and try another, for they're just trying to get close enough to get a look at this amazing being which we can't see from down here. From his perspective, we are just like ants trying to fashion bigger and better ladders to get a closer look, and how can any tool truly do the proper job when WE make them and WE OURSELVES are flawed? Get it? 😊
It really saddens me that I feel I have a few friends who are a lot like this. One who's very dear to me and who keeps getting himself down to "help others", but ends up abused and broken, and I'm the one who ends up patching him up. I have no problem providing for him because he's shown to be a truly wonderful person who really does appreciate the help... but I'm afraid he's just too kind to people he shouldn't be. It hurts me every time he comes to me for comfort after taking harsh beating from other people and that he keeps doing that. I only wish he'd understood that he can't keep up getting himself hurt for people I know and have noticed don't give a dime about him.
I’d done a few stints in therapy, when a lovely counsellor rattled off a list of my good qualities, finishing with, “... but you beat yourself up”. Realisation hit me that it was an issue I needed to work on outside the counsellor’s office: catch those thoughts, question their validity and actively reject those not based in fact. It was hard work and it took time but I reaped the rewards of that process. Yes! People need to realise therapy isn’t something you get or have done to you; it’s something you do yourself, with some guidance and tools learned from you therapist.
the fact that no specific kind of relationship here is mentioned is actually kind of soothing. its not always partners - sometimes it's a best friend you've had since you were a kid, and sometimes its a parent. those kinds of situations are excessively difficult to deal with, and it feels like nobody ever takes it seriously, and oftentimes people take offense when victims of those sorts of things even try to refer it to abuse, or even extrapolate other explanations to justify why a parent or a close friend couldn't act as an abuser. it feels awfully isolating.
@@gayindianman9114 Because I dislike how black and white Theramin treats these situations. He tries to demonize the people that do these bad things, so that the victims can find enough reasons to pull away from them. Which is good. It's just annoying to me, because I'm a fixer. And I'm well aware of the downsides it has. But I do it anyways, because I've helped people. It's been a few years since I lost count of how many people I've talked down from suicide online. And I still have old friends who thank me for helping them become better people. Fixers aren't always helpless victims. We may come from being victimized, but that unique point of view can help us relate to people who need someone to listen.
The savior complex is rooted in our childhood and I believe sometimes it's a way to subconsciosly run out of our own problems and the idea that if we help, we will be finally loved 😢
I came to this realization not so long ago. I wish I had known this before, when I was trying to fix people that didn't want to be fixed. I really wanted to help but they seemed to be too stubborn to cooperate. Sometimes it felt as if I was close but then it all crumbled down, all progress lost. At some point I had to let go.
Same here. I tried so hard, but in the end, where I realised I sacrificed myself multiple times to help that someone, I realised it was all fruitless...
My ex threatened with suicide whenever I wanted to get out, quite literally he would text me "goodbye, I hope this works" implying he was attempting right then and there.. I had a big heart for him and it took me 7 years to figure out that what he was doing was inhumane. I am depressed too and sometimes I have really low days but no matter how low my days would get, I could never use it as a weapon against somebody I loved, its sick. I would never even let my depression show to him, I'd always be cheerful and uplifting, not him though, he would be miserable all the time. Anytime he drank he would become really strange and unpleasant, often would behave really rudely, mocking me, calling me all sorts of names, so I begged him to just not talk to me when he drank, a very simple request if you ask me, he would promise he wouldnt message me but he never, not ONCE kept his promise and I am not exaggerating. It shows how he truly felt about me and how truly horrible he is to his core. I'm very sad I let him waste 7 years of my life, not only that but now I find myself co.completely unable to trust anybody. I was raised by abusive parents, I never met anybody genuine in my life so I honestly find myself believing there isnt anybody in the world that womt abuse me..
Good people exist. I don't know if you were unlucky or if you live in a bad area (since abuse tends to spread to the victims and turn them into unknowing abusers it wouldn't surprising for it to concentrate in certain areas, see TheraminTrees' video "the after effects of abuse" : th-cam.com/video/YIQocoxv5tg/w-d-xo.html ), but there are people you can trust out there. I don't know how to tell that you can trust someone though, so i won't be able to help you find them, sorry. I wish you luck.
From the bottom of my bottomless empath heart, thank you for the beautiful illustration of the difficult path I had to take in order to salvage my own psyche. Your attention to visual detail is greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Yes - well said - i used to think being an empath was a good thing - but then i realised im a co-dep empath. Every 2 weeks i go to therapy and gently encouraged to 'back off the fixing him lady'. This video has pulled it all together for me - being the highly visual brain that i have. A thousand thankyous Theramintrees
Your videos literally light up my day. It's like getting a bite-sized course in psychology, presented in the most interesting way possible. Love your work as always.
Imagine a person, who watched this video and realized, they have little to no hope of ever getting better. And if they try it, even if they admit who they are and start working on themself, resisting enormous pressure of reality and their own sins. The life is just not long enough. How many people actually just sat silent, crying inside, while watching this video? Or wrote a comment with a coded scream for help in it? But nobody ever came.
A while ago I was having a hard time with a narcissistic ex. It was emotionally destroying me. We had broke up for a while but she was manipulative and I was too invested. When I was at my worst a friend of mine showed me this video and I decided to just move on and forget about her. I lost all of my friends but 6 months later I'm the happiest I've been in what seems like ages. This video literally changed my life for the better. I came here to say thank you for making this video.
It's more like the victims become the abusers because they know what it was like to be abused and now they are much wiser and knowledgeable of themselves enough not to try to make mistakes. When you make a joke out of somebodies lack of strength that's fine because then he will fix it, become stronger and push others to continue the cycle. When you make a joke of a disability however this is where the line should be cut and I wont take that in any way shape of form. Abuse people who are weak so they get strong, help people who werent fortunate
I was a codependent person. Even though I never suffered physical abuse, I’ve gone through emotional ones. For a very long time, I never understood why I got to the point of wanting to kill myself, until I got involved with good, respectful people and did a lot of reflection. You’re right-sometimes you just need somebody to show you that you don’t need to be treated the way you have been, that you don’t need to give yourself unconditionally to people who aren’t worth the time. I end up breaking off a toxic relationship and honestly, it’s the best decision I’ve made. My mental health is a lot better now. Sometimes suicidal, but a lot more manageable now.
18:05 I used this exact same empathy to try to save a former friend in myself too. In the end, I now realise I can't save him from himself. While being sad about not being able to save someone (that idea was just not possible for me), I nourished my own personality and used this same compassion on myself. I lost a friendship, but won myself. I now know where to put my foot, basically. And, I gotta tell you, I've never felt more powerful.
As the stoics teach, change what is in your power of control. Trying to change things like your height or getting someone to love you is a losing battle. Work on what you can control.
stoicism stifles change tho, why not frameworks that teach you WHY you're better off not worrying about your height or WHY it's wrong to try and make someone fall in love with you?
I crossed the denial line when I saw that my covert-ex’s behavior had not only affected me, but landed our son in the psychiatric hospital for contemplating suicide. I was packed up and gone within 4 months. We’re both fine, but still healing 4 years later! Thank you for your insightful videos!
Being exposed to a narcissistic mother and a narcissistic religion i developed the fear of being unwanted and i thought i was doing okay until i met someone and my fear of being unwanted is coming to surface. Thank you so much for posting this
"Why dont you just leave?" Because they've conditioned me to feel like I'm a bad person if I walk away. Ps, as of nov 23 I did walk away, and the toughest part was leaving "everyone" behind.
Ugh exactly. I feel so bad if I leave but I feel like things won't get better if I stay even though I keep saying but this but that but this but that..
I think the underlying and unconcious purpose behind fixing another, is in fact fixing one's self. For loving that person is what you want, but their love to you in turn only harms you, thus you blissfuly strive to correct their "defect" when it in fact cannot ever be corrected.
That is a part of it yes. The bigger picture is about being needed. When I help, I feel needed. And that in theory fills my hole more than anything. I don't know who I am if I don't help. I NEED to feel needed. And I know that it's also what is so damaging to me because when they don't get better, or don't accept my help, I'm just pouring all my energy into the other endless black hole. Because I do pour everything I have into it. Emptying myself more and more each time. It's not filling my own hole in the end. I don't know if it even /would/ fill my it if I found someone who I could "fix". I would be better off finding someone who fills it with equal love, support and help. But that is the other issue of not feeling deserved real love. Pushing them away because I know it would be too good to be true, that I'm not good enough, so I need to leave them before they leave me. I'm working on it but it's extremely hard.
When you approach situations from an adult state, you start finding yourself in less and less abusive situations. Interactions with abusive people tend to last just momentarily because they can't stir up drama with you. You don't feed their negativity and they usually go off to find other targets. As an adult you can still engage in drama with other adults but with a sense of playfulness and not trying to get anything out of the situation. Btw I absolutely love your videos. Much love.
As always, this reminded me of my metally unstable ex-girlfriend. She was not much of an obvious abuser (more like someone who wanted to make others feel guilty or sympathetic) but she was a good example for the whole issue of trying to fix people. Maybe she had some narcicistic traits but I am hardly qualified to diagnose these. Her father aranged therapy for her because of her frequent depressive episodes and some other issues. But she always only felt like the victim of a miserable situation. She always demanded that others should feel sympathy for her and never noticed when she hurt people during one of her emotional outbreaks or simply by showing no sign of empathy to people who approached her with their needs. She did not notice and did not want to hear that she herself was a major part of her own problem. The most frustrating part was that she could only see in black and white. Whenever I tried to mediate between her and her father or her and her therapist, I was one of the bad guys. To mediate, I needed to view things from other perspectives as hers. And whenever I tried to explain how the others viewed the situation, the very act of sympathizing with them made her angry at worst and very grumpy at best. I am actually very happy that she grew bored of me and discarded me before it could get even worse. She would have never tried to fix herself.
I didn't realise that manipulating people to place them in positions that would benefit one is a trait of narcissism. I have met several people like this who present this behaviour as sign of 'intelligence' and capability claiming basically that other people who don't think like this are plain stupid and incapable of managing their life. Thank you for this video, amazing work as always.
This probably sounds cliche, but I really felt like this video was for me. I grew up Mormon and only left last year when I started watching your videos back in March. I'm happy that I have left and can try to find what happiness looks like for me, but it is very hard. My whole life, my parents called me a pleaser/peacemaker, because I never wanted conflict and wanted to make others happy. Now that I'm out of the LDS church, I feel like I have no sense of self. The community I knew is gone, and I was so accustomed to it, that I don't know how to establish one outside of it. I've been thinking about going back to a counselor, and I think you have pushed me to do so. It's about time I try helping myself for once. I'm so glad you have kept making videos, otherwise, I would have never changed. Thanks again.
Congrats on getting out! I'm 15 years free. It was hard at first, but even in the darkest moments, it was all worth it. There is nothing more precious and wonderful than being free to discover and be yourself. Despite all of the warnings I received, I regret nothing. I'd make a thousand enemies more if it meant being true to myself.
I am a recovering narcissist... however I feel like I've been recovering by going to the other extreme and becoming a codependent empath... this video helps me put things into a bit of perspective, thank you.
Possibly your best one yet! It takes an especially gifted teacher to simplify and elucidate such complex concepts. You and your team do so masterfully. Many thanks to all of you.
2:56 Oh look, it's me. I went in and assumed the problem was all me... every bit of it. I fought with the therapist countless times trying to prove I'm the problem. It wasn't an obstacle course, but a single wall. Turns out, other than my wife bashing my self-esteem in a pile of rubble, I'm perfectly fine.
As a recovering codependent, learning to stop fixing people has been a massive challenge. If I hadn’t stopped I would have remained in the ongoing cycle of meeting manipulators and abusers forever more. I have chosen to do things differently. I love the content and animations, it is really powerful
I've had the misfortune of working for 3 narcissists over the years. Each time faced with the conundrum of knowing how the narcissist behaves, whilst acknowledging that I needed the money they paid me. It was like being hired to fulfill someone's torture fantasy.
Once or twice, I have seen people improve themselves after I decided to accept them as they are and focus on improving myself. Thank you for the wonderful video.
@@totaltotalmonkey That is extremely helpful, thank you. Sadly, too late for me. Nearly a year ago to the day I chose to remove someone from my life who admittedly told me early on that he has BPD. I didn't understand the significance of it at the time but I think he really has both BPD and NPD. He regularly bounced between sending me disturbing death threats for no apparent reason and spells of seeming almost normal. But deep down I knew he was evil, I just was foolish enough to think I could fix him. It's all very much in line with what the video here says. Maybe some day I won't be constantly looking over my shoulder because of his threats, but I'm not sure I'll ever get there. Thanks again for the eye-opening link.
I'm glad that you pointed out that you can have narcissistic tendencies without actually having the disorder. I feel like I should have realized that myself.
Another analogy to describe a relationship with narcissists is a hall of mirrors. They’re both projecting themselves onto you, and mirroring yourself back to you. You eventually forget what’s real.
This is still really relevant. I almost broke down today, thinking about a relationship I was in that was of the maladaptive empathic type. I kept thinking "I left him all alone, even though he's been through so much, I left him and it's going to break him more." then I found this channel today. I was fixing his problems all the time. It was goddamned textbook. And every single one of his insecurities, he has projected on me. Told me I was drama and a problem and always causing issues. That his life was simple when I wasn't there. Every time I gathered myself to leave, I saw the ray of hope. But it wasn't hope. He's already moved on. I was just a diversion. I even fell for the "curiosity" pitfall.
After a lifetime in an abusive family, it was hard to me for believe that people can genuinely change and see how much they've hurt their close ones. Thankfully, the first man I ever fell for, was precisely the antithesis of that - at the end, he saw me get angry and sobbing at him for his repeated behaviour, and when I cut myself off, he missed our closeness like crazy but realized it was the smart thing of me to do. It took lots of painfully honest talks, but now we're best friends one can imagine. On our respective ways, but giving each other tons of support. I still have a ton to learn about codependency in potential romantic relationships, but hey, that's why I stay in therapy. I don't want to repeat the same, I want some dang peace and quiet of my mind, haha. It's still hard to me to process that some people that were close to me DON'T have that desire to change. Somehow, I take it as default. And it's sadly often not the case.
this video has healed something very deep within me and made me feel seen in a way i didn’t know i could be. i am still struggling with feeling constantly as if i am actually a horrible person, and i find it difficult to trust my gut, though my gut is always right in the end. i am learning how to trust myself and fail all the time :) but i finally have a partner who hurts when i hurt and doesn’t scold me when i cry or show any sort of frustration or sadness or fear. emotions have always been a “dirty” thing, both for my parents and ex partners. my needs and wants and feelings were always an inconvenience, and i cared so deeply for their approval, to finally be “good,” that i was willing to accept being an inconvenience so i could rescue them. so i could save myself by saving them. but other people’s emotions never really scared me. it was easy for me to understand someone else’s reality, and that made me susceptible to empathizing with individuals who hurt me over and over and could not return the favor of basic human to human understanding. grief has always felt like its swallowed me whole and like my realities shatter and reform at lightning speed. i always knew deep down that narcissists were actually extremely fragile people, too petrified to face themselves and their reality that the truth felt like an insult. like facing their own flaws or the flaws of those around them would shatter their reality and they couldn’t recover. they were too weak, and it was too much for them. but at the same time i didn’t trust myself- i was taught not too. i was always “dramatic” or “too sensitive.” any way. i learned later in life that i’m autistic lol. hope this finds another late diagnosed autistic out there somewhere. your reality is fucking real don’t let anyone tell you different just because your feelings are bigger and deeper than theirs will ever be. you are not a bad person if you give up hope that they will ever be better than they are!! you do not have to sacrifice yourself over and over to please the world. i know you because i am you. love and light ♥️
Thank you for making this video. My mother had raised me to have no identity, I was whatever she needed at that moment & would berate me when others would do the same to me. She’s always told me that I was, “The child she needed not the child she wanted.” & that sentiment repulses me now that I understand how unhealthy that concept is. I am 23 & due to mental illness have been unable to live independently. But now I should be able to get out soon & my mother is adamant that I can’t handle it. Yet at the same time tells me all the time that she wants me out of the house. I think she honestly hates how over the past four years I have been able to truly know myself & understand that I have an identity. But because of my relationship with my mother had been too painful to keep. Your video has helped me to understand that I can never get too close to her & to not look back when I leave. I’m glad I didn’t have my personality as a child because it would have made my home life even worse. But I am ready to leave this behind & have a chance to be happy. I’m terrified & confused but I have to leave. She doesn’t want help & I do. She’s really mad at me because she thinks I was telling my therapists awful things about her so that I don’t have to take responsibility for my actions. I’m not sure why that is & I would love it if someone can help me figure that out. I am determined to never be in this situation again, it’s happened with too many people that have come into my life. So I don’t want anyone to worry about me too much. I’d hug you if I could & thank you for making this, because of how much this has helped me.
Some people give up on trying to help ("fix") you, simply because they tried 30 things you never asked for and keep ignoring the one you do ask for. But how could you know what's missing? Broken? Needed? You're the broken one, and acknowledging the thing you say is wrong or that you need, even just to entertain the thought and just do it to check whether you're right about it or it's another dud after all, would potentially mean acknowledging your real problem. This would mean either for your therapist you misdiagnosed or mistreats you otherwise having to acknowledge such an error, or such "helping friends" to acknowledge for example an abuser in their midst that they do not want to be true. Thus any requests in that area will always be denied. You will be told to need therapy (which likely you do, but for what they think), and they expect that therapy to "fix you" into welcoming your abuser(s), because they're such nice and fun people after all, and nobody else ever complained about them, so *you* must be wrong simply by lack of other victims (which, even if they exist, found and made to speak out, will be cast away as just another case like yours, especially when the abuser in question will spread the lie about all his/her victims that they're delusional, psychotic, the real abusers, and so on). I have had the same experience with many therapists, and some people working in the legal system, as well as social workers: They seem empathetic at first, but the moment they learn that the key abusers in my story are females... their eyes glaze over (especially when they're women themselves), their faces harden, they look away... and the sessions/chats take a very different, stonewalling turn from then on. It seems categorically impossible for many in the field to even consider women to be abusive. In general I keep wondering why so often in abuse stories (including mine), the drones and other brainwashed or otherwise ideologically possessed people do argue with presumption of innocence, but only ever in favour of the abusers, never in the favour of the abused - even when evidence is present (then minimization (at best) begins). You finally speak out, call out the abuse, the manipulative behaviour, your wounds: Presumption of innocence for the abuser, not you. The abuser spreads lies about you (usually beforehand, so you can only react much too late if at all), turning the abuser-victim narrative around, claims you are manipulative: Presumption of innocence for the abuser, not you. Why is this? On a personal note: I finally got good social workers. They feel like humans. Real humans. Politely pissed about the mess their predecessor made they have to clean up as well. Tiniest things I almost had to beg for, or got passive aggressively ridiculed for before are done proactively without even mentioning it. Every time such a tiniest thing is done and lifted from me, I have to go looking for my jaw, because it dropped so hard it bounced off into some other room. I now understand my old social worker was a passive-aggressive, vulnerable covert narcissist. Like my last trauma-therapist, though of a different level/combination of traits (who... didn't seem to know much about trauma... as it turned out by the end. He didn't even know what complex PTSD was, and was surprised at the intense breakdowns and symptoms, couldn't even identify a 'psychogenic cramp attack' for what it was, similar to the clinic I was in before that insisted I only had a depression - when most people there understood that I was dealing with a little bigger of a problem (almost noone got any help in that place, if anything it was the intelligent, knowledgable, empathetic patients giving therapy to each other by nature - we all soon understood we were on our own there; as I learned later that clinic is regularly being sued for malpractice. I bet it would be more, if mental patients had the time, nerves, resources, capacity for that while fighting their (inner) wars). I don't know what the future holds. Part of me feels it's too little too late. Still I'm happy people like this exist, that there is some company that vets who they employ. Had I had those from the start, the world would look much different. They even offered on their own to help me with dire core-issue things that the previous douche insisted, like a 12yo screeching girl "That is not part of my job!" - he did that with most things, including those that are in every info brochure and the website of his company. The company of course twists everything, believes him, and claims I'm the problem. When all your life you get through the same types of social groups and organizations that work like this, you do ask yourself whether you really might be the problem... by now, and after having found a few decent people, I am beginning to believe that we have a narcissism-pandemic, and neither correctly identified the source, nor a remedy. When your therapist or social worker, who refuses to do the job, especially the specialization, s/he was advertised to you, beg for that treatment eventually, but then at some points after that was refused to you for so long, you get told in an accusatory tone: "Why don't you want to do [special thing x] anymore!?" or simply a petulant "You never get better!" you should realize that something is very, very wrong. You want to do X, you got a specialist for X, the specialist withholds X from you, you decline further, and then get asked why you don't want to do X anymore. How are you not supposed to lose whatever is left of your mind? What do you think?
Yep my mother was co-dependent to my father and waited 13 years into my childhood before removing the narcissist from our lives. It hadn't been the first narcissist to take advantage of her either.
Mason Reppeto my mother went through exactly the same thing for 18 years, only to fall into abusive relationship after abusive relationship until many years later where she was on the verge of breaking. She’s a very different person now, but only after she lost everything. She has a very long road to recovery. Growing up in that environment has made me hyper aware of the things presented in the video and somewhat distant to others as a coping mechanism.... I also have a long road to travel but once you break free of that setting, you can at least somewhat heal despite the scars.
Thanks for this! What of people-pleasers who eventually become narcissists themselves? I'm sure you've covered this. I think this is what happened to my mother. She was a people-pleaser who let her own family walk all over her. She was raised to believe that family is family no matter what, so she took it. But with every slight, her anger grew and grew, until she exploded. Without a healthy outlet, her immediate family became targets for her rage, massively overreacting to any perceived slight. Unfortunately my father had fallen on hard times, so mother was the primary breadwinner. There was no one to hold her back. My mental landscape was that of a minefield in a meadow. I never knew when the next explosion would happen, but everything had to look pretty. There was this one time in my teen years, I woke to her raging at me because my father was outside in the -20 cold to shovel snow, and how dare I not help him? I got bundled up and went outside, and... no snow, and no dad. I angrily confronted her, and she just laughed at me. If I slighted her it was World War 3, but the reverse was clearly no big deal to her. Later in life I met a woman who became a close friend. But she was also very much a doormat, being used by her family. I worried that she might eventually turn out just like my mother, and I took on the "helper" persona. While she wasn't a narcissist, she wasn't profiting from my efforts either. My own mental health began to to suffer. Also despite my good intentions, I may have even become yet another person in her life trying to "mold" her in my own image. So I backed off, for both our sakes. Remember folks, you can't fix other people, and you can't help people who don't want to be helped.
I think this'll be very familiar territory to most folks with experience of narcissists. Narcissists throwing eggs freely all over the place - but targets expected to walk on the shells.
Can’t imagine someone who used to be a people pleaser would do something to make her own child miserable. That seems so against the definition of people pleasing. Having said that, in my last experience with a covert narc person in a relationship, which I didn’t know back then, she would call her “future faking” as “people pleasing” when confronted. It would be either that or gaslighting.😢
@@anantakesharipanda4085 It's the cycle of abuse. See also, poop rolls downhill. My mother couldn't or wouldn't strike back at her actual abusers, but someone had to get screamed at. Ironically while she did nothing but complain about everyone in her life, she once had a legit complaint about my father. He was always taking her car without permission. So I told her to stop bishing about it and take action. Take him off the insurance. She admitted she didn't have the resolve for that, she could only impotently complain about it. Make of that what you will.
When this video was released, I had been deep in the trauma bond to my abusive ex-partner. For 2 years after the break-up, there was little improvement. And the thing holding all of it together was my need of fixing him, saving him, and making it my life's meaning. I knew about it, fought it a lot, with many mental exercises. But I lost hope that I will ever 'cure' myself. Watching this video struck a cord though, deeply. One year later, in Jan 2021, I can say it's been >6 months that I'm free from the obsession of saving him, and free from having him in my mind. Mentally healthier than ever, or maybe somewhat healthy for the first time. While there's many things I can credit for this achievement (e.g. painful nihilistic realisations), this video was one of them. So, thank you. So much. I deeply appreciate every video that you share with us. It's hard to give it justice when destribing their value.
I'm always hoping I can fix my father... mostly because 90% of all days he is a great pal, he is indeed someone I would want to have the rest of my life by my side... but the thing is... that 10% of times is now enough to make me realize it's not my problem attempting to fix him, he should want to himself.
I’m an extremely empathetic person, and I’m surrounded by (mostly) good people. It was sobering, yet I think really important, to see that intense empathy could be self-damaging. ... Thank you for that. I think that knowledge will be extremely valuable to me.
I wish I had this video 4 years ago when I filed for divorce against my wife for the first time. I convinced myself I'd misunderstood her, and gave her endless chances to stop abusing me or those around us. It took another 2 years to admit I was right the first time and another year more after that to finalize the divorce. There's a lot of time I can't get back, but I feel immunized against it now so I know the time wasn't wasted. I know your work is going to help a lot of people to see and understand what the trap looks like and they'll get to where I am now much faster. Thank you.
I’m just finding you now. And holy shit. I needed to hear this. 5 years ago. I’ve become what I like to call the “ mom “ of my friend group, where if anyone needed someone to talk to, it was me. Which is fine and all until I’d take it upon myself to attempt to fix what ever problem they might have. It’s put a GREAT deal of stress and self loathing on myself when something doesn’t get “ fixed”. Even if I wasn’t asked to. I’ve become a little better I believe over the past few years at being a better listener instead of a fixer. But old habits die hard, and I’m constantly in a struggle. This is the first step on a greater journey of my self help. Thank you.
This video touched me deeply. I was already aware of my father's malignant narcissism, the relationship having ended years ago. However, the video made me realize that at the same time, as a vulnerable adolescent, my best friend at that time was also using me and was pulling all my energy, like a black hole. Seeing the mask "fall" was a good metaphor. In particular, seeing my Dad's mask fall once, and only seeing more empty mask underneath, absolutely broke everything for me and started a long healing journey that is only partly about him. I'll never forget coming to him the day after the death of my beloved grandmother (mom's family) to express my grief and literally the next thing out of his mouth was about how his son (my brother) was useless and effeminate and taking advantage of him. I broke down in tears and told him everything I thought about him, really. He broke off contact as soon as he couldn't complain about people to me and use me as his own personal therapist anymore have only just realized how maladaptive some of my behavior had become over so many years of this treatment. I'm trying to let go of "maladaptive problem solving" in particular. I find that I steamroller over my own self trying to fix everything for other people, and it's so destructive. I cannot express enough how you have helped me face the correct direction so I can adjust my behavior and tendencies to be more healthy. ❤️
part of why it works so well is that people freely choose to participate in it. So it's a pre-selection process, someone who is not going to let their mind changed is not going to agree in the first place.
@@silkwesir1444 Not necessarily. Someone may agree to a discussion if they are unwilling to change their mind, but believe they could change the other person's mind.
My conundrum is knowing that one of my abusers is not conscious of the abuse as it is tied into her complex trauma. I had to terminate contact regardless. Two years after watching this presentation for the first time, I'm still struggling with suicidal ideation. The best I can cling to is 'self-care' which is as comfortable to me as touching a slug. Please make more psychology videos. You are truely helpful.
I have huge conflicting feelings. I feel like almost in equal measure like the narcissist and the co-dependent strong empath... I feel like am the abuser and the abused all at once but I feel trapped and helpless without professional guidance.
It feels like I'm an empath forced to wear armour. I am trying to combat this by focussing on being more holistic and open minded and understanding and using my empathy to absorb, diminish and deflect narcissistic traits in myself and others.
all of this sounds like you guys are in a stormy sea, perpetual disorientation. dont beat yourself up. take some distance, cut contacts and try to find yourself: Draw a line in the sand, find out where you end and other people begin. maybe do get some psychological help. you do go to the doctor when you notice a physical problem/weirdness too, right?
It is entirely possible & not unreasonable that victims of narcissistic abusers can end up absorbing or "internalizing" 1 or more narcissistic personality traits from their abusers. 1 possible reason is that, in an effort 2 minimize the abuse, victims may (deliberately or unknowingly) adopt a few or more of the behaviors of their abusers as a result of prolonged exposure & close associative ties (such as familial bonds &/or cohabitation). This in no way *guarantees* that the targets of narcissistic abusers will in turn become narcissistic abusers ... but it does mean that survivors of such abuse need 2 identify & guard against those narcissistic tendencies within themselves as they walk that long & often difficult path of recovery. Obviously, therapy involving 1 or more qualified mental-health professionals can B invaluable.
How are you doing now? I hope you've reached out by now to get that professional guidance you wanted. I kind of felt the same way as you last year, but after starting therapy I realized that 1) a LOT of my guilt and worry about being a narcissist was just gaslighting by my ex-boyfriend. He made me feel selfish for feeling emotions that weren't directly under his control, and convinced me that I was the source of any and every problem. I must be a narcissist if my very emotions and instincts are hurting the one I love, right? This video perfectly describes what my struggle was like to finally realize that he just doesn't think the same way as I do, and that there's nothing I can or should do to change that. 2) my open-mindedness was not actual open-mindedness, it was self-flagellation. I relate SO MUCH to your statement of "I am trying to combat this by focussing on being more holistic and open minded". I used to have constant thoughts of "stop thinking that way" and "stop feeling that way" and "it's bad that you thought that" and I would readily accept any criticism from my abuser (because I was terrified of becoming that person who can't accept criticism). Guess what? Those were thought patterns that were ingrained in me over a lifetime of never feeling like I could express my emotions freely and safely. My emotions = bad, but for some reason, not only were other people allowed to feel emotions, but I was also responsible for theirs. The first thing I learned in therapy was to stop the negative self-talk and just get comfortable experiencing my own emotions. Those emotions, once freely experienced, can actually be trusted pretty well. It's okay to feel anger at the ex-boyfriend who violated me. Anger lets me finally accept that what he did was wrong and that it was not my fault, and it will protect me from allowing future abuse to happen to me. I cannot emphasize enough the relief I have been feeling lately: as my self-esteem and emotional boundaries have improved in therapy, my worries about being a bad person have just kind of... dissipated like mist. 3) even if I do have a couple narcissistic tendencies, it doesn't mean I'm a horribly terribly bad person. Most people have some degree of narcissistic traits; that does not mean everyone has a narcissistic personality disorder. My main adult role models as a kid had narcissistic traits, so of course I learned that it was normal to act that way (and why I thought it was perfectly okay to accept abuse). It doesn't mean there's anything intrinsically wrong with me, I just learned some bad habits, and now as a young adult I can choose to change them. I think if I hadn't realized this and made an effort to improve myself, those tendencies would have developed into habits/permanent mindset as I got older. As my self-esteem has improved, I no longer experience occasional feelings of aggrandized self-importance (maybe that seems contradictory, but an inflated sense of self importance was really just armor against deep-seated insecurity and vulnerability). I feel much more calm, grounded, and empowered than I ever have before. Writing all that out was mostly for my own benefit, but maybe you got something out of it too. My main point is, your contradictory feelings sound a lot like a symptom of having spent time around narcissists. The solution isn't to try to change your feelings, but rather to discover your inner self-worth and your right to experience your emotions and nobody else's.
I don't know whether to feel happy at the compassion I find in this video or cry because this so accurately recounts my experiences down the literal terms i used to describe my feelings (vicarious - my joy was so dependent on hers, and superstitious - she was my God in a religion where I was happy to be the sacrificial lamb at the altar of her supposed love, and rollercoaster as well). And the use of both genders to describe these situations is so beautiful, loads of other resources assume that only men are narcs (maybe there's a high probability but there are many male empaths dealing with female narcs as well).
Yup this one resonates. I've always wondered why I attract narcissists. I got told by a councilor that narcissism is fairly rare and that's probably just egotistical behavior misinterpreted. And I had to push back that they were self-aware narcissists who admitted to narcissistic tendencies. I wish I was given more information... That aside, wonderful video. I love the imagery, message, and tone. As someone who's had counseling fail on me more than once, these are an invaluable tool. If I had disposable income to donate to your patreon, I would. Sadly all you get is my admiration, and gratitude.
I'm sorry to say this but they probably WEREN'T narcissists. narcissism is classified by a pathological lack of self awareness. in most cases, a self aware narcissist would be an oxymoronic concept. your councilor was probably right to a degree.
@@hypergamous They were, and still are narcissists. They weren't NPD; narcissistic personality disorder. Probably not good to conflate the two. Also you're just wrong on the lack of self-awareness. Not all narcissists lack empathy to the degree that it effects their self-awareness. NPD isn't the same as general narcissism. Different points on a spectrum, and every narcissist is going to present differently.
This channel has really reminded me of how complex the human experience really is. It's incredibly exhausting to have to think about all these things so actively and in situations that prevent us from doing so but at the end of the day it will always be worth it and there will still be time to do other less exhausting things that we enjoy and care about. Thank you for your work.
Yes. The best thing about that is the more you think about that the faster you are able to identify abusers. Even if they are more intelligent than you, somewhen they will make a fail and you will be able to identify them. The best abusers will abuse you nondescript, you do not even have to feel bad while they are doing it. You have to thing about everything clearly even on the actions that are making you happy.
An abusive relationship I was in felt like being a circus animal with a particularly abusive owner. With an electric collar on my neck, no way to get it off, and guilted into not escaping.
"To create accurate high resolution mindmaps takes a lot of focus listening and observing. Failing to listen and observe can lead to huge errors. We might ignore important differences or overemphasize trivial ones." And you all should've listened to me when I was 6 years old and thought that my name was Steven. A lot of us might be fucked now.
This is an episode that feels like it was made specifically with me in mind. My draw to fix or save people is really intense, and has led me down a couple of very unhealthy relationships. And thanks to therapy and lot of introspection I have managed to recognize when that need arises. Last summer I noticed it as I was meeting a new potential relationship partner who was in dire need of fixing. And knowing what was happening made the draw even stronger. I managed to not contact them again.
I seem to be attracted to people who are "in need of fixing" as well. I'm guessing it's something I do because of my ultimate "saviour" fantasy that I noticed in my subconscious. How I picture myself as the ultimate emphatic helper and guide in romantic relationships and normal relationships. It's hard to know when to let your guard down, because to help others you need to be in vulnerable positions.
It feels like it was made for me, too. But I'm the black hole that's being endlessly demonized. Guess what, black holes used to be stars! And some of us don't WANT to be like this! This video just feels like I'm sinking in quicksand and rather than someone try to pull me out, they just say I deserve it and push me deeper.
@Tim, 5:36 note it's a spectrum. Also take note of the concept of "fleas" and google it (in relation to Narcissism) for further info. It may change how you see yourself.
I‘m not sure whether or not this fits the „obstacle course“ metaphor, but every TheraminTrees feels like a therapy session to me, pointing out what I‘m doing wrong.
i've been on and off of multiple abusive relationships, and am now fighting the urge to try to "fix" them. when you described the black hole analogy it made me feel guilty for seeing a person i love so much as something that drains me that much. it made me feel scared that they find out i see them as such. this feeling makes me realize how much energy someone can spend on other people, how much i put into being perfect to them that my own mind isn't safe anymore. thank you for making me see that.
The most underrated channel on TH-cam. I really needed to watch this video. I had no way to describe the my therapist a lot of the emotions I feel in relationships and I highly identify with the radical codependent empath. I broke off a 5 year friendship because I was the star and she was a blackhole and I watched her hurt (cheat on her girlfriend) when I saw the hurt in the girlfriend I knew my friend was toxic and the relationship needed to end and know I am still friends with her ex. The end of this video really hit me because I don't know how to get out of the cycle of radical empathy and trying to fix others. Definitely a lot to talk about in my next therapy session.
Looking at this makes me aware that frollo from the hunchback of Notre dame was an extreme narcissist, he could never do wrong and do everything he did was righteous. The only time he cracked was when the priest pointed out that all the statues on the cathedral were witness to his crime, so his fear of God attacked his belief that he was holy and made a crack in his armor that made him regret doing it. Course he managed to recover and went back to normal but it really showed the extreme circumstance needed to break through to someone like that.
You made me realise that my last relationship was abusive. I cannot thank you enough, TheraminTrees, for this. Maybe now I can stop blaming myself for not being enough for her and start seeing other mistakes, ones that once acknowledged, can be solved to become better. Thanks, truly.
I like your suit of armour analogy, it complements my perception of a codependent as an emotional mannequin, wearing all kinds of emotion and empathy for a response. Even polishing the armour won't work, it's still empty.
![infantilisation | a regressive abuse [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c39F04inLJ0/mqdefault.jpg)
![infantilisation | a regressive abuse [cc]](/img/tr.png)
![double binds | narcissistic ‘no-win’ mind games [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vnSiJOOdo30/mqdefault.jpg)
![that's a red flag? but I do that.... [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NkLM8HTYY1g/mqdefault.jpg)
![commanded to love | performing false emotions for tyrants [cc]](/img/n.gif)
This guy somehow knows all of our personal experiences that would otherwise be unnoticed by most people
Thanks a lot for helping me through life and how to not get entangled in abuse and teaching me about people.
He is a therapist after all, he's seen much.
Edit: thinking back on my history of 100% bad therapists, I need to amend that has a GOOD therapist that's willing to listen and work with his clients instead of belittling them and talking about themselves and their history of drug and alcohol addiction for the first 5 sessions like mine did. Mind you, I was 13 at the time. The first alcohol I had in my life (after becoming legal) was 2 months ago).
Excellent comment my friend
@@chriswhitt6685 thank you
I agree I wish you the best on your journey.
He's been there himself
This is a small thing but I really appreciate you using both male and female icons for abusers
I second this. Male abusers are numerous . Similarly female abusers are numerous. Psychology seeing female abuse of males validates our experiences and helps us put our experiences into words
It’s important to realize BOTH sexes abuse A LOT. In general, women abuse emotionally but it gets physical more than people realize. We all know men abuse but usually turn to violence sooner. I feel for everyone abused by men but I also feel for those abused by women. Whether it is physical or emotional they are both just as damaging.
Agreed, it's a welcome change from the normal way these things are talked about and I appreciate it too
Reverse woke is true woke
Try explaining this to a Brazilian audience.
Something missing from your analogy between the narcissist and the black hole.
Throwing stars into a black hole doesn't fill it, it feeds the hole and grows it wider and deeper.
Narcissists become worse when they have someone to feed on.
Wonderful point!
It sounds like it reinforces the idea that people are only there to "feed" them, to be controlled by them or otherwise used for their own personal interests.
Yes, and when the black hole eats to many stars, it collapses
Yuri Hageshi I think you’re thinking of neutron stars or other stars there chief. Black holes don’t collapse when they consume too much, but they do constantly emit energy via Hawking radiation until they just disappear, which I think is even better for the analogy, as not only do these people eventually become nonexistent, but when they do exist they constantly emit a uniform amount of energy which speeds up the process of entropy, chaos itself.
A black hole is the most collapsed state there is. It can't collapse further, it's already shrunk to nothing and fallen below the event horizon. A normal star is held up by electromagnetic forces. When it becomes too dense and gravity overcomes electromagnetism, the star is crushed into a neutron star. A neutron star is held up by the weak nuclear force. When it becomes too dense and gravity overcomes the weak force, the neutron star is crushed into a quark star. A quark star is held up by the strong nuclear force. When it becomes too dense and gravity overcomes the strong force, it collapses into a black hole.
And that's all of the forces. There are no other forces which can act anymore. Gravity wins, completely and utterly, and the star falls into itself. Forever. Nothing is left to stop it, not even hitting the "middle". It keeps going down even after that.
I am the empath. My first husband was the abuser. He used my empathy against me until the day he threatened suicide and i offered to get a knife for him to do. That was a day of real personal growth. His expression turned to disgust and asked if i was crazy. A few days later he stole all my cash, birth certificate, a tv, credit card etc and left town. He pays his back child support but i haven't seen him since the day he left.
The interesting thing is i only said it because i was exasperated. He had tried to commit suicide a few times before and i always took him serious. The look on his face and the tone of his voice brought me around to realize my emotions were being used to control me.
That was 32 years ago, his absence is the best gift i ever gave myself
"...he threatened suicide and i offered to get a knife for him to do."
That's seriously gangsta!
Congrats on getting out.
"Some people spread happiness wherever they go, and some people spread happiness whenever they *go* ."
@@DrownedInExile Late to the party but I enjoy the quote. I also like the one that says "I'd like to help you out -- which way did you come in?" To a certain type. Very little patience for ignorance.
I’m so happy for you. Hope all is well
@@AryaManIndia you don't know them personally, you cant make those judgments, lay off
@@brydie191 "Empaths" don't exist in clinical practice, as far as I know. It is a pop psychology term, usually used by people who might think of themselves as superior to others in terms of empathy, morality, etc...I've read articles from some analysists who even think someone calling themselves empat could actually mean they have high traits of narcissism or actually being a narcissist. Of course we can't judge this individual based on one comment.
People aren't objects that can be "fixed", they are subjects of their own heroic story even when they are the villain.
Yip. In my mind I was a martyr when I broke contact with people to "teach" them a lesson. In reality I was triggered to relive a trauma and shielded myself from more triggers and unnecessarily hurt and confused people with my displaced reaction. I apologized to some of them, but never told them I would do better. I broke their trust and I'm only starting to have the trust in myself that I can do better and it's a long way before that's the new habit. Words would be empty and only put pressure on myself to force my progress. I can only hope that my actions will rebuild some of the trust I lost and the pain I caused fades into the background and that I can someday confidently say it is a thing of my past.
A very good way of putting it.
@@stylis666 Sounds like you are making great progress, be aware and keep it up!
This is really an insightful comment.
@@pauljimerson8218 Thanks! Yeah, I am making progress. I have been for quite some years and I'm finally confident enough to know that it's not just temporary but that I have built a solid basis to build on and fall back on, no matter what happens. With the help and support from medication, professionals and friends and family of course. And a lot has happened in those years and I found that I really have a solid basis and I'm much stronger than I had ever expected I could be.
I'll always be aware of myself. I have to keep myself in order to maintain balance for "maximal profit", so to speak :) I'm still a sensitive wuss who's easily thrown off balance and that's just my genetic make up. So I have to keep an eye on myself to rest and eat well for the rest of my life, but it's finally not a constant struggle to do so, just to be able to function.
I now do that because it allows me to enjoy life and be there for others and it helps me get up quicker in case I am thrown off balance, because that will and does happen, a lot, but I'm no longer afraid of it. Through the years I've learned I have an easier time accepting it, especially because I am very aware of the triggers I choose to allow and why I allow them. I no longer blame myself for feeling awful; I just make sure it's worth it and then treat myself well, pretty much the same way I would when I'm having a flu :) Eat well, rest up, drink lots of fluids and before you know it, you're ready to rock again :D
"Endlessly explaining to abusers how they make you feel has no positive effect."
I'm close to tears now haha. This really struck a chord with me. You helped me get out of one of the worst and most abusive relationships I could have ever imagined. Thank you for that.
It's so tempting to explain ourselves so we can be validated and heard
Self-compassion feels like blasphemy.
This broke me. I sincerely thank you for that quote.
Reading this comment in bitter smile, idk why i find it depressing everytime i see everything that reminds me of my family
My therapist at some point told me that I need to be more "selfish" sometimes
My family didn't really understand depression and always said I was only thinking about myself, which wasn't true, but put a wrong image in my head, just making me feel worse
After hearing that from my therapist I started rethinking things
Right!! It got me too 😮💨
Yeah, that hit me like a brick too... I was raised not to give a crap about myself and I still struggle with it io this day!
Self care too. I have been having problems about taking care of myself because I just knew how to take care of others and it felt "wrong" taking care of my needs.
Since I've found your channel by chance, my personal life has improved immensely. I left an abusive religious group. I broke up with my un-loving partner. I've started seeing the trappings of my mother and her infantalizing behavior. Thank you for helping me become myself, my real healthy self.
"Sometimes just being heard and seen is the most important things a target can have."
*face dam breaks* Ngl, I cried a little with that line....
I feel u man/woman/other
this hit super hard. reminded me of a time when i got high while in an abusive relationship (just weed, but i hallucinate when i smoke for w/e reason) and my hallucination was that i stopped existing when someone wasn't directly addressing me or i wasn't looking dead on in a mirror. fun times (/s)
We see you Rukia.
@@craigstephenson7676 "other", LOL.
@@GrayYeonWannabe My first experience with weed was the sensory hallucination that my legs became muddy and I could swing them through each other and the hallucination stopped every time I looked down and saw I was just moving them about half an inch, so obviously I just kept looking up to the sky :p
So yeah, hallucinating on relatively mild drugs is entirely possible. Or no drugs at all it's possible as well. I have had this hallucination since forever where I would feel like I was pinching my thumb and index finger together and increasing the pressure far beyond what I could produce or physically endure. I always found that fascinating and just kept doing it. In reality the pressure was exactly the same or sometimes even less but I tensed up the rest of my hand only slightly, but making it seemingly perfectly rigid, giving the illusion that pressure between the two touching fingers increased to a "perfectly rigid" force, which makes as much sense as the colour purple, so your mind starts making shit up to fill in the blanks.
I know, it's totally off topic, but hey, enjoy your weird mind :D We all have one :D And yours isn't any weirder than anyone else's :D We're all in this together :D I'm just happy we have people like Theramintrees who can help us make sense of it all.
I once was tripping with my girlfriend on what I assume was food poisoning. I felt completely disconnected from the world and thought I would disappear if the world stopped interacting with me. I think this sensation was much like yours. I asked my girlfriend to keep talking with me so I would at least feel as if the world still existed. Phoning a doctor would have been the better choice and we probably could have both died, but we're still alive :) And happily married with 3 children and a dog. No, just kidding. We broke up a couple of years later. We were young and stupid and life happens and choices are made. We had our fun and grew into entirely different people than we were then. She might have saved my life. That's no reason to imprison her for the rest of her life out of sentiment :)
"They didn't realize they were empathizing with a hoax" ding ding ding you nailed it👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
For me it was when the facade dropped.......and I saw inside
"When you get a look under their (the abuser) suit of armor, and you see there's nothing there." Very chilling sentence, revealing the abuser to be more like an immortal vampire than a human. There is nothing but a black hole that consumes. It consumed before you came along, and will continue when and if you leave.
Chilling indeed. It might explain why I don't know the personality of "my mother", making it more chilling to me.
Very chilling indeed! I wonder if part of it is realisation from the reflection of gross misjudgements , an awakening of error.
@@TreespeakerOfTheLand Yes. Being a sperm donor or being a vessel doesn't make one qualified to be a parent.
@@spaceghost8995
Procreation is child abuse regardless.
Cubelarooso there, somebody said it!!!
I literally feel uplifted as soon as I see a new video by you - and am never disappointed. I feel uplifted but also want to cry.
Aw thanks my friend! And thanks for teaching me the word habibi. Having been initially struck by its phonetic charm, what a delight to then discover its meaning!
@Oh Hai Wow somebody sure doesn't like being called out for wanting to molest kids, that's a big wall of text right there. With death threats even!
@Oh Hai
*"There is no feature or quality to sexual activity that makes it importantly different from everything else children are brought to be involved in by their parents and caregivers and therefore treating it differently is unjustified."*
There is, actually. We are born unable to feel pleasure from sex. Sexual activity is something that is harmful to immature people, and children each mature at their own pace.
Some will be mature early. Others will stay immature until puberty. Others yet are asexual (a bisexual likes both men and women, while an asexual dislikes both), and will never want to have sex all their live.
I personally matured early and would have had no problem with sleeping with an attractive woman, for as long as i remember. So i probably matured around five, or even four years old, and i understand that even a child can want and enjoy sex, because i did. However, what about the people that mature slowly, or if you're not attracted by your parents or caregivers?
I'm not attracted to my mother, she was and is just too old for my liking. Even though i would have gladly slept with a woman much younger than her, i would have been disgusted to do it with her, and it would have definitely caused psychological harm to me. Furthermore, it would have been even worse if i had to sleep with my father, as i'm repulsed by men. And before you say something like "of course the caregiver of the same sex shouldn't be the one taking care of these things", i haven't said whether i am a man or a woman.
Now, how do you know which children have matured early, and what they like? How do you know that the caregiver isn't mistaken about what the child wants, or worse, isn't ignoring it? How do you differentiate between a caregiver that guides the child healthily and happens to luckily be what the child is attracted to, and a caregiver that takes advantage of the child's lack of experience and inability to say no?
You can't, especially when you consider that it is easy to force children to lie by threatening them. I have even heard some cults trained their children by setting up false policemen and then punishing the children that told the false policemen about their abuse.
Therefore, we must not let caregivers be involved in the sexual activity of the child, because it's a lot less damaging to not have sex when you want to (if it is damaging at all, i had no problem with it), than to have sex when you don't want to.
@Oh Hai [QUOTE]There is no feature or quality to sexual activity that makes it importantly different from everything else children are brought to be involved in by their parents and caregivers and therefore treating it differently is unjustified.[/QUOTE]
Wrong, children can't consent correctly. They are incapable of making necessary informed opinions on the topic.
Remember the girl that killed herself because she missed her father? In order to meet him again 'she went to heaven' by killing herself.
Your arguments are flawed, I dont want to go into that now though.
Hassan, based on the thread of comments below my comment is most benign, I just wanted to say about your comment, I fell uplifted too.
People would always set me up with guys who needed to be in therapy, as if I could love them back to mental health. My response was, " I didn't break it. I can't fix it. Plus, no ethical therapist would date a patient." It took years for friends and acquaintances to get the hint.
Abusers love the idea of feeding the savior complex and finding people who believe they can "fix" them. It's the carrot tied to the long stick that keep you moving fordward in the wrong direction.
I think your friends have good intentions but they are not conscious about their magical thinking.
When you learn to let go of fixing someone and corona be like "I hope you're ready to be economically dependent on them for 6 months!"
Mm. Many messages from folks who'd hoped to be leaving - including lots of students hoping to escape to college.
As a professional whose job it is to teach life skills to a large variety of individuals, it can be really easy for me to get caught up in narcissistic behaviors, whether it's from clients, their families, or sometimes coworkers. After a particularly bad month of cancellations and struggles, it's refreshing to watch a video that makes me take a step back and recognize that some of my clients are heavily resisting learning skills to change narcissistic behaviors, and that I'm not the one who's responsible for changing them. So thank you for posting this now.
I'm glad it's timely for you. And I do think as professionals in 'the trade', it's only human to sometimes have to wrestle with this stuff - some people pull very hard on us don't they! I wish you well.
have a lovely new year theramintrees
You too!
Sam, I second that thought. And add a healthy "Thank you" to Mr. Trees for this fine channel. Oh and a Happy New year to you Sam :)
@@Reason1717 ok reason!! thank you mr theramin trees
@@TheraminTrees I discovered your channel some years ago during a tough time, which I thought I'd solve with a relapse into christianity. I was in the middle of reading Augustine's confessions when TH-cam drove me onto your videos. Honestly it wasn't pleasant, seeing you coldly break that fragile tool with which I was hoping to regain some inner stability. Though it did provoke some actual pain, I forced myself to watch for a while. The message sounded true and solid, and you're the one who fished me out of that intellectual dead-end. Which let me continue to tramp on across Ideasland and eventually start to build up a new and efficient personal toolbox, stealing ideas from every system and adhering to none. For those times I remain very fond of your channel. I now keep coming back for the simple pleasure of listening to those sound and superbly pedagogical online conferences that you offer to us. I guess a new-year congratulation might be an occasion as good as any other to express this gratefulness. Greetings from a French listener, all the best to you, whoever you are. :)
Decade*
Every new video you post is a bit of sanity in this chaotic world : thank you so much, and I cannot wait to settle down and watch this one.
I've been conflicted over stepping away from a victim. She's been falling into narcissists traps all her life, she had a strong support system of friends who listened to her, advised her, tried to help, tried to get her into therapy, but over and over again she chose to ignore all of us and chose their abuser over the people who loved her. It's been like this for 15 years. Eventually, one by one people left, feeling drained after years of trying to fix someone who refused to be fixed. Now I'm the last one, and I've been feeling guilt because I want to leave too. This video reassured me in a lot of my emotions, thank you.
*This is my favorite video ever.* I'm a recovering Jehovah's witness. When I left that abusive organization, I thought I could "wake up" those still trapped inside. This video has helped me realize I need to focus on my own codependency. *I can't fix people*
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO.
Glad you're recovering. I often wonder how many JWs out in the world are having that internal epiphany right now and are about to start on that restorative road. Sad that many will remain in that loveless corrosive organisation. But great to see ever-growing thriving communities of ex-members providing a softer landing for the people who do want to change.
@@TheraminTrees your videos help lots of Exjws adjust and understand the challenges leaving the religion. Thank you so much
In case your haven’t heard of him already, there’s a channel called Telltale and he’s also an ex JW. His main thing is talking about cults and what makes a cult, but he has multiple videos on his life while still on the inside if you’re interested
I too was a JW.
A few years ago, I was in an emotionally abusive and exploitative relationship. I stayed because I wanted to "fix" their depression and help them with their low self-esteem. All my efforts to do this did absolutely nothing, and all they did was take more and more and cross my boundaries over and over. Eventually one day, after 2-3 years of abuse, I realized during another one of our fights that they called me names and accused me of things I would never say to anyone that I actually loved. It was all a facade. I broke up with them and felt freer and happier than ever, I remember likening it to a bird being freed from their cage. I have a new partner who treats me with respect, and I feel as though I've gained a lot more self-respect since then. This video was very helpful in reprocessing that experience. Thank you so much for your work!
Edit: I did want to add another very important part of my experience while being abused was talking to my high school counselor at the time. I was very scared that if I would break up with them, they would commit suicide, and that it would be my fault. They helped me realize that it was entirely out of my hands what they chose to do in the end. That was a bit of a wake-up call, and though I stayed in the relationship for a while after that conversation, it gave me the courage to leave when I realized I'd had enough. I wasn't going to let them continue making my life miserable, especially when regardless of how hard I tried to help, empathize, understand... it didn't matter. And thankfully, they did not kill themselves as a result. Just wanted to put that piece of advice out there in case anyone else is struggling similarly to how I struggled.
Thank you so much for sharing. I feel like I'm going through a similar thing with my boyfriend right now. And I've overlooked all these red flags in pursuit of wanting to help him and love him.
But it's so hard because I feel so confused and I do genuinely love him
I once lost a close friend to a terrible conflict. He had a breakup, and was feeling terrible, and i tried to confort him. He was abusive with everyone, but i kept telling myself that it was because of his mental illness, not out of evil intent. One day, i couldn't take it anymore, when i noticed that none of my suffering and effort made any difference. No matter how much i tried to acompany and support him, nothing would change. Thats when the rope snapped, and he sunk down, while i could finally float. It was such a weird feeling that i've never felt before... My emotions shut down. We had an abrupt goodbye through text, and then i felt nothing. I felt hollow and gray, as if my brain could not handle such strong emotional response and simply suspended itself. I went to sleep, without sadness nor joy. Then i woke up the next day, and tried to carry on with my life. Eventually, my feelings came back to me, and the group of friends that was torn appart from this break slowlly crawled back into chatrooms and gatherings. Its a strange mix of guilt and relief, but i assure you that you end up knowing it was the right thing. No need to sacrifice yourself trying to help somebody that doesn't want help.
"I can fix him/her" is often turned as a humoristic way to tell how love is so blinding it makes you act in super stupid ways. But hell, this is not love, this is a representation of the complete chokehold the abusive partner has on their victim. As much as i love dark humor on heavy topics, it makes me look at this joke in a different way.
Will you elaborate? I like how you talked about a chokehold
Thanks for being my sort of emotional guide as I gave up on religion. You're amazing dude.
Same, he helped me see religion for what it really is, a type of manipulation.
Religion is an unspiritual person's attempt to be spiritual... to reach God... if you don't have your own relationship with God, religion may help you get started, but if you've tried and can't connect, sticking with religion won't help you. And if you have a relationship with God, you don't need religion.
Anyone who slams religion without having a relationship with God is missing perception of that entire landscape. That's why ppl slam ppl who believe in God and think they believe in fairytales - it's like they're both blind and deaf to that dimension... they just can't feel it so they have no idea what we feel.
As with all of these processes, it's all about what's going on inside a person, and 1 person's reality is never the same as another's...
@@leighatkins22 are you saying there's a true god, but that no religion actually knows who it is?
@@KatarinaBohtana It CAN be used for that by unscrupulous manipulators, for God hits us right in the feels and we are SO easily weilded by them...
Religion is like money, it's JUST a tool, no-one falls in love with their money but they sure learn to love what you can achieve with it and the same applies to religion - i have seen the most beautiful things achieved with "religion" or faith, it's not necessarily an evil thing, but of course wherever there are humans, there is potential for corruption and abuse and the fact is that that is more due to OUR nature and not due to religion itself... we are what we are and religion is just a tool, and if you have a problem with religion, take a good look at the human wielding and and how he is wielding it!!!
@@-JaggedGrace- Possibly... most definitely actually...
Like i said, religion is just our attempt to reach and understand something SO MUCH BIGGER than ourselves and we use it like a ladder to reach a higher place so to speak, and get a glimpse of a taller more awesome being.
Each person who uses that ladder will come down with a slightly different description of what they saw but no ONE person will have the full description coz some will have used a slightly different style of ladder and placed it somewhere different and hence come back with a slightly different revelation again.
Just like any tool, religion yields different results based on the tradesman who picked it up, his skill and experience, his understanding of the limits of that tool and the quality of that tool etc for some tools have better features than others - some use Catholicism, some use Buddhism, some use New Age, some say "bugger this i'll make my own Spirituality". That's why some will drop one tool and pick up and try another, for they're just trying to get close enough to get a look at this amazing being which we can't see from down here.
From his perspective, we are just like ants trying to fashion bigger and better ladders to get a closer look, and how can any tool truly do the proper job when WE make them and WE OURSELVES are flawed? Get it? 😊
"self-compassion can feel like blasphemy" eek, I uh-- I felt that
It really saddens me that I feel I have a few friends who are a lot like this. One who's very dear to me and who keeps getting himself down to "help others", but ends up abused and broken, and I'm the one who ends up patching him up. I have no problem providing for him because he's shown to be a truly wonderful person who really does appreciate the help... but I'm afraid he's just too kind to people he shouldn't be.
It hurts me every time he comes to me for comfort after taking harsh beating from other people and that he keeps doing that. I only wish he'd understood that he can't keep up getting himself hurt for people I know and have noticed don't give a dime about him.
.. you could send him this video
So you try to help him and he doesn't listen as well?
Have you heard of Covert Narcs? They appear like codependents.
I’d done a few stints in therapy, when a lovely counsellor rattled off a list of my good qualities, finishing with, “... but you beat yourself up”. Realisation hit me that it was an issue I needed to work on outside the counsellor’s office: catch those thoughts, question their validity and actively reject those not based in fact. It was hard work and it took time but I reaped the rewards of that process.
Yes! People need to realise therapy isn’t something you get or have done to you; it’s something you do yourself, with some guidance and tools learned from you therapist.
the fact that no specific kind of relationship here is mentioned is actually kind of soothing. its not always partners - sometimes it's a best friend you've had since you were a kid, and sometimes its a parent. those kinds of situations are excessively difficult to deal with, and it feels like nobody ever takes it seriously, and oftentimes people take offense when victims of those sorts of things even try to refer it to abuse, or even extrapolate other explanations to justify why a parent or a close friend couldn't act as an abuser. it feels awfully isolating.
There's a variation of that poem
"Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there!
He wasn't there again today,
I think he's from the CIA."
I really like the star and black hole metaphor
Trailtracker Yeah its really accurate.
And they are accurate about empaths
Odd. That part specifically got on my nerves.
@@ten-xlegacy4033 why is that?
@@gayindianman9114 Because I dislike how black and white Theramin treats these situations. He tries to demonize the people that do these bad things, so that the victims can find enough reasons to pull away from them. Which is good.
It's just annoying to me, because I'm a fixer.
And I'm well aware of the downsides it has. But I do it anyways, because I've helped people.
It's been a few years since I lost count of how many people I've talked down from suicide online. And I still have old friends who thank me for helping them become better people.
Fixers aren't always helpless victims. We may come from being victimized, but that unique point of view can help us relate to people who need someone to listen.
"I can't carry it for you, Mr. Frodo... But I can carry you"
Fly...
...this comment to the top
What does this mean?
@@DOUBLE0SEVUN reference to lord of the rings
@@DOUBLE0SEVUN That friends can't overcome problems for you but they can help you get through them.
@@Kurostyle21 Ah! I see! Thanks for explaining!
The savior complex is rooted in our childhood and I believe sometimes it's a way to subconsciosly run out of our own problems and the idea that if we help, we will be finally loved 😢
This comment hits close to home
I came to this realization not so long ago. I wish I had known this before, when I was trying to fix people that didn't want to be fixed. I really wanted to help but they seemed to be too stubborn to cooperate. Sometimes it felt as if I was close but then it all crumbled down, all progress lost. At some point I had to let go.
Same here.
I tried so hard, but in the end, where I realised I sacrificed myself multiple times to help that someone, I realised it was all fruitless...
My ex threatened with suicide whenever I wanted to get out, quite literally he would text me "goodbye, I hope this works" implying he was attempting right then and there.. I had a big heart for him and it took me 7 years to figure out that what he was doing was inhumane. I am depressed too and sometimes I have really low days but no matter how low my days would get, I could never use it as a weapon against somebody I loved, its sick. I would never even let my depression show to him, I'd always be cheerful and uplifting, not him though, he would be miserable all the time. Anytime he drank he would become really strange and unpleasant, often would behave really rudely, mocking me, calling me all sorts of names, so I begged him to just not talk to me when he drank, a very simple request if you ask me, he would promise he wouldnt message me but he never, not ONCE kept his promise and I am not exaggerating. It shows how he truly felt about me and how truly horrible he is to his core. I'm very sad I let him waste 7 years of my life, not only that but now I find myself co.completely unable to trust anybody. I was raised by abusive parents, I never met anybody genuine in my life so I honestly find myself believing there isnt anybody in the world that womt abuse me..
Good people exist. I don't know if you were unlucky or if you live in a bad area (since abuse tends to spread to the victims and turn them into unknowing abusers it wouldn't surprising for it to concentrate in certain areas, see TheraminTrees' video "the after effects of abuse" : th-cam.com/video/YIQocoxv5tg/w-d-xo.html ), but there are people you can trust out there.
I don't know how to tell that you can trust someone though, so i won't be able to help you find them, sorry.
I wish you luck.
From the bottom of my bottomless empath heart, thank you for the beautiful illustration of the difficult path I had to take in order to salvage my own psyche. Your attention to visual detail is greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Thank you. And good for you that you salvaged it!
Yes - well said - i used to think being an empath was a good thing - but then i realised im a co-dep empath. Every 2 weeks i go to therapy and gently encouraged to 'back off the fixing him lady'. This video has pulled it all together for me - being the highly visual brain that i have. A thousand thankyous Theramintrees
Hurr Durr empath, you mean woman
@@imbetter599 Wot?
Your videos literally light up my day. It's like getting a bite-sized course in psychology, presented in the most interesting way possible. Love your work as always.
Imagine a person, who watched this video and realized, they have little to no hope of ever getting better. And if they try it, even if they admit who they are and start working on themself, resisting enormous pressure of reality and their own sins. The life is just not long enough. How many people actually just sat silent, crying inside, while watching this video? Or wrote a comment with a coded scream for help in it? But nobody ever came.
A while ago I was having a hard time with a narcissistic ex. It was emotionally destroying me. We had broke up for a while but she was manipulative and I was too invested. When I was at my worst a friend of mine showed me this video and I decided to just move on and forget about her. I lost all of my friends but 6 months later I'm the happiest I've been in what seems like ages. This video literally changed my life for the better. I came here to say thank you for making this video.
A good friend of mine likes to say,
“rescuers become victims”.
It's more like the victims become the abusers because they know what it was like to be abused and now they are much wiser and knowledgeable of themselves enough not to try to make mistakes.
When you make a joke out of somebodies lack of strength that's fine because then he will fix it, become stronger and push others to continue the cycle.
When you make a joke of a disability however this is where the line should be cut and I wont take that in any way shape of form.
Abuse people who are weak so they get strong, help people who werent fortunate
& Self Annointed Victims Often Victimize
I was a codependent person. Even though I never suffered physical abuse, I’ve gone through emotional ones. For a very long time, I never understood why I got to the point of wanting to kill myself, until I got involved with good, respectful people and did a lot of reflection. You’re right-sometimes you just need somebody to show you that you don’t need to be treated the way you have been, that you don’t need to give yourself unconditionally to people who aren’t worth the time. I end up breaking off a toxic relationship and honestly, it’s the best decision I’ve made. My mental health is a lot better now. Sometimes suicidal, but a lot more manageable now.
18:05
I used this exact same empathy to try to save a former friend in myself too. In the end, I now realise I can't save him from himself. While being sad about not being able to save someone (that idea was just not possible for me), I nourished my own personality and used this same compassion on myself. I lost a friendship, but won myself. I now know where to put my foot, basically. And, I gotta tell you, I've never felt more powerful.
As the stoics teach, change what is in your power of control. Trying to change things like your height or getting someone to love you is a losing battle. Work on what you can control.
#MarcusAurelius
I like this 😊
stoicism stifles change tho, why not frameworks that teach you WHY you're better off not worrying about your height or WHY it's wrong to try and make someone fall in love with you?
I crossed the denial line when I saw that my covert-ex’s behavior had not only affected me, but landed our son in the psychiatric hospital for contemplating suicide. I was packed up and gone within 4 months. We’re both fine, but still healing 4 years later! Thank you for your insightful videos!
Glad you made it out!
I saw the title
I saw your channel
I cancelled sleeping.
It's 12 : 36 AM here, I'll grab some food and tea and watch your video.
Thank you, man !
Violet Pskb It’s 2 a.m. where I am what am I doing here
make it 3 am :p
Same here!
Chamomile is the equivalent of chicken noodle soup. Highly recommend!
12:39 AM, New Jersey. Almost the same time!
Being exposed to a narcissistic mother and a narcissistic religion i developed the fear of being unwanted and i thought i was doing okay until i met someone and my fear of being unwanted is coming to surface. Thank you so much for posting this
"Why dont you just leave?" Because they've conditioned me to feel like I'm a bad person if I walk away.
Ps, as of nov 23 I did walk away, and the toughest part was leaving "everyone" behind.
Congratulations
Ugh exactly. I feel so bad if I leave but I feel like things won't get better if I stay even though I keep saying but this but that but this but that..
I think the underlying and unconcious purpose behind fixing another, is in fact fixing one's self. For loving that person is what you want, but their love to you in turn only harms you, thus you blissfuly strive to correct their "defect" when it in fact cannot ever be corrected.
That is a part of it yes. The bigger picture is about being needed. When I help, I feel needed. And that in theory fills my hole more than anything. I don't know who I am if I don't help. I NEED to feel needed.
And I know that it's also what is so damaging to me because when they don't get better, or don't accept my help, I'm just pouring all my energy into the other endless black hole. Because I do pour everything I have into it. Emptying myself more and more each time.
It's not filling my own hole in the end. I don't know if it even /would/ fill my it if I found someone who I could "fix".
I would be better off finding someone who fills it with equal love, support and help. But that is the other issue of not feeling deserved real love. Pushing them away because I know it would be too good to be true, that I'm not good enough, so I need to leave them before they leave me.
I'm working on it but it's extremely hard.
@@petrac2840omg this is me too
When you approach situations from an adult state, you start finding yourself in less and less abusive situations. Interactions with abusive people tend to last just momentarily because they can't stir up drama with you. You don't feed their negativity and they usually go off to find other targets. As an adult you can still engage in drama with other adults but with a sense of playfulness and not trying to get anything out of the situation. Btw I absolutely love your videos. Much love.
As always, this reminded me of my metally unstable ex-girlfriend. She was not much of an obvious abuser (more like someone who wanted to make others feel guilty or sympathetic) but she was a good example for the whole issue of trying to fix people. Maybe she had some narcicistic traits but I am hardly qualified to diagnose these.
Her father aranged therapy for her because of her frequent depressive episodes and some other issues. But she always only felt like the victim of a miserable situation. She always demanded that others should feel sympathy for her and never noticed when she hurt people during one of her emotional outbreaks or simply by showing no sign of empathy to people who approached her with their needs. She did not notice and did not want to hear that she herself was a major part of her own problem.
The most frustrating part was that she could only see in black and white. Whenever I tried to mediate between her and her father or her and her therapist, I was one of the bad guys. To mediate, I needed to view things from other perspectives as hers. And whenever I tried to explain how the others viewed the situation, the very act of sympathizing with them made her angry at worst and very grumpy at best. I am actually very happy that she grew bored of me and discarded me before it could get even worse. She would have never tried to fix herself.
I didn't realise that manipulating people to place them in positions that would benefit one is a trait of narcissism. I have met several people like this who present this behaviour as sign of 'intelligence' and capability claiming basically that other people who don't think like this are plain stupid and incapable of managing their life. Thank you for this video, amazing work as always.
I feel so silly for the years of abuse that i constantly made excuses for... that small light every once and a while was so blindingly bright for me.
I agree!!
This probably sounds cliche, but I really felt like this video was for me.
I grew up Mormon and only left last year when I started watching your videos back in March.
I'm happy that I have left and can try to find what happiness looks like for me, but it is very hard.
My whole life, my parents called me a pleaser/peacemaker, because I never wanted conflict and wanted to make others happy.
Now that I'm out of the LDS church, I feel like I have no sense of self. The community I knew is gone, and I was so accustomed to it, that I don't know how to establish one outside of it.
I've been thinking about going back to a counselor, and I think you have pushed me to do so. It's about time I try helping myself for once.
I'm so glad you have kept making videos, otherwise, I would have never changed. Thanks again.
The exmo community is huge. Reach out to Bryce at Nakedmormonismpodcast he may have some great resources for you. Congrats and good luck free thinker.
Congrats on getting out! I'm 15 years free. It was hard at first, but even in the darkest moments, it was all worth it. There is nothing more precious and wonderful than being free to discover and be yourself. Despite all of the warnings I received, I regret nothing.
I'd make a thousand enemies more if it meant being true to myself.
You are a badass for leaving! You are in charge of yourself now. I respect that and you should too.
DK weeks, Not sure if this will mean anything to you, but your comment here helped me. Wishing you the best on your journey... you are not alone.
Why did you leave?
Was there any abuse?
This gave me a whole new understanding of how hard it is to be a good therapist
Every time I finish one of these essays, I feel like I need to clap for the experience and a new understanding. Truely brilliant.
I am a recovering narcissist... however I feel like I've been recovering by going to the other extreme and becoming a codependent empath... this video helps me put things into a bit of perspective, thank you.
Funny.. I'm went from being a codependent empath to being a recovering narcissist.
Possibly your best one yet!
It takes an especially gifted teacher to simplify and elucidate such complex concepts.
You and your team do so masterfully.
Many thanks to all of you.
Thank you. There's no team by the way - just me.
TheraminTrees many times more impressive!
2:56 Oh look, it's me.
I went in and assumed the problem was all me... every bit of it.
I fought with the therapist countless times trying to prove I'm the problem.
It wasn't an obstacle course, but a single wall.
Turns out, other than my wife bashing my self-esteem in a pile of rubble, I'm perfectly fine.
Its January 2nd, 2020, and my Birthday. A Theremin Trees video is the best present I have gotten all day
Happy birthday Nathan
@@TheraminTrees Thanks and Happy New Year.
Happy birthday and happy New year!
Happy late birthday.
Happy belated birthday!:)
As a recovering codependent, learning to stop fixing people has been a massive challenge. If I hadn’t stopped I would have remained in the ongoing cycle of meeting manipulators and abusers forever more. I have chosen to do things differently. I love the content and animations, it is really powerful
I think the whole thing can be summarized into the famous saying: "You can only lead a horse to a water hole. It's up to them to drink it."
I've had the misfortune of working for 3 narcissists over the years. Each time faced with the conundrum of knowing how the narcissist behaves, whilst acknowledging that I needed the money they paid me. It was like being hired to fulfill someone's torture fantasy.
Once or twice, I have seen people improve themselves after I decided to accept them as they are and focus on improving myself.
Thank you for the wonderful video.
Cluster B personality disorders should be required learning
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_B_personality_disorders
it’s 2012 you dumbass
Government bureaucrats would never allow that. It diminishes sociopaths' power when people can see behind their mask.
Wise words from There's Poop In My Butt
@@totaltotalmonkey That is extremely helpful, thank you. Sadly, too late for me. Nearly a year ago to the day I chose to remove someone from my life who admittedly told me early on that he has BPD. I didn't understand the significance of it at the time but I think he really has both BPD and NPD. He regularly bounced between sending me disturbing death threats for no apparent reason and spells of seeming almost normal. But deep down I knew he was evil, I just was foolish enough to think I could fix him. It's all very much in line with what the video here says. Maybe some day I won't be constantly looking over my shoulder because of his threats, but I'm not sure I'll ever get there. Thanks again for the eye-opening link.
I'm glad that you pointed out that you can have narcissistic tendencies without actually having the disorder. I feel like I should have realized that myself.
Another analogy to describe a relationship with narcissists is a hall of mirrors. They’re both projecting themselves onto you, and mirroring yourself back to you. You eventually forget what’s real.
It's so hard dealing with this
This is still really relevant. I almost broke down today, thinking about a relationship I was in that was of the maladaptive empathic type. I kept thinking "I left him all alone, even though he's been through so much, I left him and it's going to break him more." then I found this channel today. I was fixing his problems all the time. It was goddamned textbook. And every single one of his insecurities, he has projected on me. Told me I was drama and a problem and always causing issues. That his life was simple when I wasn't there.
Every time I gathered myself to leave, I saw the ray of hope. But it wasn't hope. He's already moved on. I was just a diversion. I even fell for the "curiosity" pitfall.
Can you describe what happened
After a lifetime in an abusive family, it was hard to me for believe that people can genuinely change and see how much they've hurt their close ones. Thankfully, the first man I ever fell for, was precisely the antithesis of that - at the end, he saw me get angry and sobbing at him for his repeated behaviour, and when I cut myself off, he missed our closeness like crazy but realized it was the smart thing of me to do. It took lots of painfully honest talks, but now we're best friends one can imagine. On our respective ways, but giving each other tons of support. I still have a ton to learn about codependency in potential romantic relationships, but hey, that's why I stay in therapy. I don't want to repeat the same, I want some dang peace and quiet of my mind, haha. It's still hard to me to process that some people that were close to me DON'T have that desire to change. Somehow, I take it as default. And it's sadly often not the case.
this video has healed something very deep within me and made me feel seen in a way i didn’t know i could be. i am still struggling with feeling constantly as if i am actually a horrible person, and i find it difficult to trust my gut, though my gut is always right in the end. i am learning how to trust myself and fail all the time :) but i finally have a partner who hurts when i hurt and doesn’t scold me when i cry or show any sort of frustration or sadness or fear. emotions have always been a “dirty” thing, both for my parents and ex partners. my needs and wants and feelings were always an inconvenience, and i cared so deeply for their approval, to finally be “good,” that i was willing to accept being an inconvenience so i could rescue them. so i could save myself by saving them. but other people’s emotions never really scared me. it was easy for me to understand someone else’s reality, and that made me susceptible to empathizing with individuals who hurt me over and over and could not return the favor of basic human to human understanding. grief has always felt like its swallowed me whole and like my realities shatter and reform at lightning speed. i always knew deep down that narcissists were actually extremely fragile people, too petrified to face themselves and their reality that the truth felt like an insult. like facing their own flaws or the flaws of those around them would shatter their reality and they couldn’t recover. they were too weak, and it was too much for them. but at the same time i didn’t trust myself- i was taught not too. i was always “dramatic” or “too sensitive.” any way. i learned later in life that i’m autistic lol. hope this finds another late diagnosed autistic out there somewhere. your reality is fucking real don’t let anyone tell you different just because your feelings are bigger and deeper than theirs will ever be. you are not a bad person if you give up hope that they will ever be better than they are!! you do not have to sacrifice yourself over and over to please the world. i know you because i am you. love and light ♥️
Thank you so much for writing this. This video really resonated with me too
Thank you for making this video. My mother had raised me to have no identity, I was whatever she needed at that moment & would berate me when others would do the same to me. She’s always told me that I was, “The child she needed not the child she wanted.” & that sentiment repulses me now that I understand how unhealthy that concept is. I am 23 & due to mental illness have been unable to live independently. But now I should be able to get out soon & my mother is adamant that I can’t handle it. Yet at the same time tells me all the time that she wants me out of the house. I think she honestly hates how over the past four years I have been able to truly know myself & understand that I have an identity. But because of my relationship with my mother had been too painful to keep. Your video has helped me to understand that I can never get too close to her & to not look back when I leave. I’m glad I didn’t have my personality as a child because it would have made my home life even worse. But I am ready to leave this behind & have a chance to be happy. I’m terrified & confused but I have to leave. She doesn’t want help & I do. She’s really mad at me because she thinks I was telling my therapists awful things about her so that I don’t have to take responsibility for my actions. I’m not sure why that is & I would love it if someone can help me figure that out. I am determined to never be in this situation again, it’s happened with too many people that have come into my life. So I don’t want anyone to worry about me too much. I’d hug you if I could & thank you for making this, because of how much this has helped me.
revisiting this video as I've been talking to a new partner, currently caught in their own cycle. thank you for all you do.
Some people give up on trying to help ("fix") you, simply because they tried 30 things you never asked for and keep ignoring the one you do ask for. But how could you know what's missing? Broken? Needed? You're the broken one, and acknowledging the thing you say is wrong or that you need, even just to entertain the thought and just do it to check whether you're right about it or it's another dud after all, would potentially mean acknowledging your real problem. This would mean either for your therapist you misdiagnosed or mistreats you otherwise having to acknowledge such an error, or such "helping friends" to acknowledge for example an abuser in their midst that they do not want to be true. Thus any requests in that area will always be denied. You will be told to need therapy (which likely you do, but for what they think), and they expect that therapy to "fix you" into welcoming your abuser(s), because they're such nice and fun people after all, and nobody else ever complained about them, so *you* must be wrong simply by lack of other victims (which, even if they exist, found and made to speak out, will be cast away as just another case like yours, especially when the abuser in question will spread the lie about all his/her victims that they're delusional, psychotic, the real abusers, and so on).
I have had the same experience with many therapists, and some people working in the legal system, as well as social workers: They seem empathetic at first, but the moment they learn that the key abusers in my story are females... their eyes glaze over (especially when they're women themselves), their faces harden, they look away... and the sessions/chats take a very different, stonewalling turn from then on. It seems categorically impossible for many in the field to even consider women to be abusive.
In general I keep wondering why so often in abuse stories (including mine), the drones and other brainwashed or otherwise ideologically possessed people do argue with presumption of innocence, but only ever in favour of the abusers, never in the favour of the abused - even when evidence is present (then minimization (at best) begins).
You finally speak out, call out the abuse, the manipulative behaviour, your wounds: Presumption of innocence for the abuser, not you.
The abuser spreads lies about you (usually beforehand, so you can only react much too late if at all), turning the abuser-victim narrative around, claims you are manipulative: Presumption of innocence for the abuser, not you.
Why is this?
On a personal note: I finally got good social workers. They feel like humans. Real humans. Politely pissed about the mess their predecessor made they have to clean up as well. Tiniest things I almost had to beg for, or got passive aggressively ridiculed for before are done proactively without even mentioning it. Every time such a tiniest thing is done and lifted from me, I have to go looking for my jaw, because it dropped so hard it bounced off into some other room.
I now understand my old social worker was a passive-aggressive, vulnerable covert narcissist. Like my last trauma-therapist, though of a different level/combination of traits (who... didn't seem to know much about trauma... as it turned out by the end. He didn't even know what complex PTSD was, and was surprised at the intense breakdowns and symptoms, couldn't even identify a 'psychogenic cramp attack' for what it was, similar to the clinic I was in before that insisted I only had a depression - when most people there understood that I was dealing with a little bigger of a problem (almost noone got any help in that place, if anything it was the intelligent, knowledgable, empathetic patients giving therapy to each other by nature - we all soon understood we were on our own there; as I learned later that clinic is regularly being sued for malpractice. I bet it would be more, if mental patients had the time, nerves, resources, capacity for that while fighting their (inner) wars).
I don't know what the future holds. Part of me feels it's too little too late. Still I'm happy people like this exist, that there is some company that vets who they employ. Had I had those from the start, the world would look much different. They even offered on their own to help me with dire core-issue things that the previous douche insisted, like a 12yo screeching girl "That is not part of my job!" - he did that with most things, including those that are in every info brochure and the website of his company. The company of course twists everything, believes him, and claims I'm the problem.
When all your life you get through the same types of social groups and organizations that work like this, you do ask yourself whether you really might be the problem... by now, and after having found a few decent people, I am beginning to believe that we have a narcissism-pandemic, and neither correctly identified the source, nor a remedy.
When your therapist or social worker, who refuses to do the job, especially the specialization, s/he was advertised to you, beg for that treatment eventually, but then at some points after that was refused to you for so long, you get told in an accusatory tone: "Why don't you want to do [special thing x] anymore!?" or simply a petulant "You never get better!" you should realize that something is very, very wrong. You want to do X, you got a specialist for X, the specialist withholds X from you, you decline further, and then get asked why you don't want to do X anymore. How are you not supposed to lose whatever is left of your mind?
What do you think?
Yep my mother was co-dependent to my father and waited 13 years into my childhood before removing the narcissist from our lives. It hadn't been the first narcissist to take advantage of her either.
Mason Reppeto my mother went through exactly the same thing for 18 years, only to fall into abusive relationship after abusive relationship until many years later where she was on the verge of breaking. She’s a very different person now, but only after she lost everything. She has a very long road to recovery. Growing up in that environment has made me hyper aware of the things presented in the video and somewhat distant to others as a coping mechanism.... I also have a long road to travel but once you break free of that setting, you can at least somewhat heal despite the scars.
It was really hard to acknowledge that i myself was an narcissistic abuser in my relationship.
Same. How was that realization?
@@funkchurches "Wait. Why did I do that? Oh. Oh no. I am the asshole"
Good on you both for self reflecting and trying to change!
Thanks for this!
What of people-pleasers who eventually become narcissists themselves? I'm sure you've covered this.
I think this is what happened to my mother. She was a people-pleaser who let her own family walk all over her. She was raised to believe that family is family no matter what, so she took it. But with every slight, her anger grew and grew, until she exploded. Without a healthy outlet, her immediate family became targets for her rage, massively overreacting to any perceived slight. Unfortunately my father had fallen on hard times, so mother was the primary breadwinner. There was no one to hold her back. My mental landscape was that of a minefield in a meadow. I never knew when the next explosion would happen, but everything had to look pretty.
There was this one time in my teen years, I woke to her raging at me because my father was outside in the -20 cold to shovel snow, and how dare I not help him? I got bundled up and went outside, and... no snow, and no dad. I angrily confronted her, and she just laughed at me. If I slighted her it was World War 3, but the reverse was clearly no big deal to her.
Later in life I met a woman who became a close friend. But she was also very much a doormat, being used by her family. I worried that she might eventually turn out just like my mother, and I took on the "helper" persona. While she wasn't a narcissist, she wasn't profiting from my efforts either. My own mental health began to to suffer. Also despite my good intentions, I may have even become yet another person in her life trying to "mold" her in my own image. So I backed off, for both our sakes.
Remember folks, you can't fix other people, and you can't help people who don't want to be helped.
I think this'll be very familiar territory to most folks with experience of narcissists. Narcissists throwing eggs freely all over the place - but targets expected to walk on the shells.
Can’t imagine someone who used to be a people pleaser would do something to make her own child miserable. That seems so against the definition of people pleasing.
Having said that, in my last experience with a covert narc person in a relationship, which I didn’t know back then, she would call her “future faking” as “people pleasing” when confronted. It would be either that or gaslighting.😢
@@anantakesharipanda4085 It's the cycle of abuse. See also, poop rolls downhill. My mother couldn't or wouldn't strike back at her actual abusers, but someone had to get screamed at. Ironically while she did nothing but complain about everyone in her life, she once had a legit complaint about my father. He was always taking her car without permission. So I told her to stop bishing about it and take action. Take him off the insurance. She admitted she didn't have the resolve for that, she could only impotently complain about it. Make of that what you will.
When this video was released, I had been deep in the trauma bond to my abusive ex-partner. For 2 years after the break-up, there was little improvement. And the thing holding all of it together was my need of fixing him, saving him, and making it my life's meaning.
I knew about it, fought it a lot, with many mental exercises. But I lost hope that I will ever 'cure' myself. Watching this video struck a cord though, deeply. One year later, in Jan 2021, I can say it's been >6 months that I'm free from the obsession of saving him, and free from having him in my mind. Mentally healthier than ever, or maybe somewhat healthy for the first time. While there's many things I can credit for this achievement (e.g. painful nihilistic realisations), this video was one of them.
So, thank you. So much.
I deeply appreciate every video that you share with us. It's hard to give it justice when destribing their value.
I’m happy you’re in a better place!
I'm always hoping I can fix my father... mostly because 90% of all days he is a great pal, he is indeed someone I would want to have the rest of my life by my side... but the thing is... that 10% of times is now enough to make me realize it's not my problem attempting to fix him, he should want to himself.
I continue to gain value from your videos, thank you for all your thoughtful work and explanations.
Thanks Curtis!
I’m an extremely empathetic person, and I’m surrounded by (mostly) good people. It was sobering, yet I think really important, to see that intense empathy could be self-damaging. ... Thank you for that. I think that knowledge will be extremely valuable to me.
I wish I had this video 4 years ago when I filed for divorce against my wife for the first time. I convinced myself I'd misunderstood her, and gave her endless chances to stop abusing me or those around us. It took another 2 years to admit I was right the first time and another year more after that to finalize the divorce. There's a lot of time I can't get back, but I feel immunized against it now so I know the time wasn't wasted. I know your work is going to help a lot of people to see and understand what the trap looks like and they'll get to where I am now much faster. Thank you.
Showed this video to a friend who recently escaped from an abusive situation. It helped them a lot.
I’m just finding you now. And holy shit. I needed to hear this. 5 years ago. I’ve become what I like to call the “ mom “ of my friend group, where if anyone needed someone to talk to, it was me. Which is fine and all until I’d take it upon myself to attempt to fix what ever problem they might have. It’s put a GREAT deal of stress and self loathing on myself when something doesn’t get “ fixed”. Even if I wasn’t asked to. I’ve become a little better I believe over the past few years at being a better listener instead of a fixer. But old habits die hard, and I’m constantly in a struggle. This is the first step on a greater journey of my self help. Thank you.
This video touched me deeply. I was already aware of my father's malignant narcissism, the relationship having ended years ago. However, the video made me realize that at the same time, as a vulnerable adolescent, my best friend at that time was also using me and was pulling all my energy, like a black hole. Seeing the mask "fall" was a good metaphor. In particular, seeing my Dad's mask fall once, and only seeing more empty mask underneath, absolutely broke everything for me and started a long healing journey that is only partly about him. I'll never forget coming to him the day after the death of my beloved grandmother (mom's family) to express my grief and literally the next thing out of his mouth was about how his son (my brother) was useless and effeminate and taking advantage of him. I broke down in tears and told him everything I thought about him, really. He broke off contact as soon as he couldn't complain about people to me and use me as his own personal therapist anymore have only just realized how maladaptive some of my behavior had become over so many years of this treatment. I'm trying to let go of "maladaptive problem solving" in particular. I find that I steamroller over my own self trying to fix everything for other people, and it's so destructive. I cannot express enough how you have helped me face the correct direction so I can adjust my behavior and tendencies to be more healthy. ❤️
And that’s why Street Epistemology is the best way to change someone’s mind
part of why it works so well is that people freely choose to participate in it. So it's a pre-selection process, someone who is not going to let their mind changed is not going to agree in the first place.
@@silkwesir1444 Not necessarily. Someone may agree to a discussion if they are unwilling to change their mind, but believe they could change the other person's mind.
Welp… this made me cry over trying to fix an abuser for 11 years just to be left destroyed with nothing 💔 this grief over my own part to play is awful
My conundrum is knowing that one of my abusers is not conscious of the abuse as it is tied into her complex trauma. I had to terminate contact regardless. Two years after watching this presentation for the first time, I'm still struggling with suicidal ideation. The best I can cling to is 'self-care' which is as comfortable to me as touching a slug. Please make more psychology videos. You are truely helpful.
I have huge conflicting feelings. I feel like almost in equal measure like the narcissist and the co-dependent strong empath... I feel like am the abuser and the abused all at once but I feel trapped and helpless without professional guidance.
It feels like I'm an empath forced to wear armour. I am trying to combat this by focussing on being more holistic and open minded and understanding and using my empathy to absorb, diminish and deflect narcissistic traits in myself and others.
I don’t know what my armor is, what my own self is. I have no answers, only questions and I can’t say if I am /right/.
all of this sounds like you guys are in a stormy sea, perpetual disorientation. dont beat yourself up. take some distance, cut contacts and try to find yourself: Draw a line in the sand, find out where you end and other people begin. maybe do get some psychological help. you do go to the doctor when you notice a physical problem/weirdness too, right?
It is entirely possible & not unreasonable that victims of narcissistic abusers can end up absorbing or "internalizing" 1 or more narcissistic personality traits from their abusers. 1 possible reason is that, in an effort 2 minimize the abuse, victims may (deliberately or unknowingly) adopt a few or more of the behaviors of their abusers as a result of prolonged exposure & close associative ties (such as familial bonds &/or cohabitation).
This in no way *guarantees* that the targets of narcissistic abusers will in turn become narcissistic abusers ... but it does mean that survivors of such abuse need 2 identify & guard against those narcissistic tendencies within themselves as they walk that long & often difficult path of recovery. Obviously, therapy involving 1 or more qualified mental-health professionals can B invaluable.
How are you doing now? I hope you've reached out by now to get that professional guidance you wanted. I kind of felt the same way as you last year, but after starting therapy I realized that
1) a LOT of my guilt and worry about being a narcissist was just gaslighting by my ex-boyfriend. He made me feel selfish for feeling emotions that weren't directly under his control, and convinced me that I was the source of any and every problem. I must be a narcissist if my very emotions and instincts are hurting the one I love, right? This video perfectly describes what my struggle was like to finally realize that he just doesn't think the same way as I do, and that there's nothing I can or should do to change that.
2) my open-mindedness was not actual open-mindedness, it was self-flagellation. I relate SO MUCH to your statement of "I am trying to combat this by focussing on being more holistic and open minded". I used to have constant thoughts of "stop thinking that way" and "stop feeling that way" and "it's bad that you thought that" and I would readily accept any criticism from my abuser (because I was terrified of becoming that person who can't accept criticism). Guess what? Those were thought patterns that were ingrained in me over a lifetime of never feeling like I could express my emotions freely and safely. My emotions = bad, but for some reason, not only were other people allowed to feel emotions, but I was also responsible for theirs. The first thing I learned in therapy was to stop the negative self-talk and just get comfortable experiencing my own emotions. Those emotions, once freely experienced, can actually be trusted pretty well. It's okay to feel anger at the ex-boyfriend who violated me. Anger lets me finally accept that what he did was wrong and that it was not my fault, and it will protect me from allowing future abuse to happen to me. I cannot emphasize enough the relief I have been feeling lately: as my self-esteem and emotional boundaries have improved in therapy, my worries about being a bad person have just kind of... dissipated like mist.
3) even if I do have a couple narcissistic tendencies, it doesn't mean I'm a horribly terribly bad person. Most people have some degree of narcissistic traits; that does not mean everyone has a narcissistic personality disorder. My main adult role models as a kid had narcissistic traits, so of course I learned that it was normal to act that way (and why I thought it was perfectly okay to accept abuse). It doesn't mean there's anything intrinsically wrong with me, I just learned some bad habits, and now as a young adult I can choose to change them. I think if I hadn't realized this and made an effort to improve myself, those tendencies would have developed into habits/permanent mindset as I got older. As my self-esteem has improved, I no longer experience occasional feelings of aggrandized self-importance (maybe that seems contradictory, but an inflated sense of self importance was really just armor against deep-seated insecurity and vulnerability). I feel much more calm, grounded, and empowered than I ever have before.
Writing all that out was mostly for my own benefit, but maybe you got something out of it too. My main point is, your contradictory feelings sound a lot like a symptom of having spent time around narcissists. The solution isn't to try to change your feelings, but rather to discover your inner self-worth and your right to experience your emotions and nobody else's.
I don't know whether to feel happy at the compassion I find in this video or cry because this so accurately recounts my experiences down the literal terms i used to describe my feelings (vicarious - my joy was so dependent on hers, and superstitious - she was my God in a religion where I was happy to be the sacrificial lamb at the altar of her supposed love, and rollercoaster as well). And the use of both genders to describe these situations is so beautiful, loads of other resources assume that only men are narcs (maybe there's a high probability but there are many male empaths dealing with female narcs as well).
Yup this one resonates. I've always wondered why I attract narcissists. I got told by a councilor that narcissism is fairly rare and that's probably just egotistical behavior misinterpreted. And I had to push back that they were self-aware narcissists who admitted to narcissistic tendencies. I wish I was given more information... That aside, wonderful video. I love the imagery, message, and tone. As someone who's had counseling fail on me more than once, these are an invaluable tool. If I had disposable income to donate to your patreon, I would. Sadly all you get is my admiration, and gratitude.
I wish this vid was part of school curriculum. If we were all more aware of abuse, perhaps it wouldn't be so prevalent.
I'm sorry to say this but they probably WEREN'T narcissists. narcissism is classified by a pathological lack of self awareness. in most cases, a self aware narcissist would be an oxymoronic concept. your councilor was probably right to a degree.
@@hypergamous They were, and still are narcissists. They weren't NPD; narcissistic personality disorder. Probably not good to conflate the two.
Also you're just wrong on the lack of self-awareness. Not all narcissists lack empathy to the degree that it effects their self-awareness. NPD isn't the same as general narcissism. Different points on a spectrum, and every narcissist is going to present differently.
@kadran3263 so true. They don't teach about this kind of thing yet so many people end up in these crazy relationships, including me
This channel has really reminded me of how complex the human experience really is. It's incredibly exhausting to have to think about all these things so actively and in situations that prevent us from doing so but at the end of the day it will always be worth it and there will still be time to do other less exhausting things that we enjoy and care about. Thank you for your work.
Yes. The best thing about that is the more you think about that the faster you are able to identify abusers. Even if they are more intelligent than you, somewhen they will make a fail and you will be able to identify them. The best abusers will abuse you nondescript, you do not even have to feel bad while they are doing it. You have to thing about everything clearly even on the actions that are making you happy.
An abusive relationship I was in felt like being a circus animal with a particularly abusive owner. With an electric collar on my neck, no way to get it off, and guilted into not escaping.
"To create accurate high resolution mindmaps takes a lot of focus listening and observing. Failing to listen and observe can lead to huge errors. We might ignore important differences or overemphasize trivial ones."
And you all should've listened to me when I was 6 years old and thought that my name was Steven. A lot of us might be fucked now.
This is an episode that feels like it was made specifically with me in mind. My draw to fix or save people is really intense, and has led me down a couple of very unhealthy relationships. And thanks to therapy and lot of introspection I have managed to recognize when that need arises. Last summer I noticed it as I was meeting a new potential relationship partner who was in dire need of fixing. And knowing what was happening made the draw even stronger. I managed to not contact them again.
I seem to be attracted to people who are "in need of fixing" as well.
I'm guessing it's something I do because of my ultimate "saviour" fantasy that I noticed in my subconscious. How I picture myself as the ultimate emphatic helper and guide in romantic relationships and normal relationships.
It's hard to know when to let your guard down, because to help others you need to be in vulnerable positions.
It feels like it was made for me, too. But I'm the black hole that's being endlessly demonized. Guess what, black holes used to be stars! And some of us don't WANT to be like this! This video just feels like I'm sinking in quicksand and rather than someone try to pull me out, they just say I deserve it and push me deeper.
@@MentalParadox They don't say you deserve it. They say that you should get therapy.
@Tim, 5:36 note it's a spectrum. Also take note of the concept of "fleas" and google it (in relation to Narcissism) for further info. It may change how you see yourself.
This honestly helped me understand my empathy a lot more.
I‘m not sure whether or not this fits the „obstacle course“ metaphor, but every TheraminTrees feels like a therapy session to me, pointing out what I‘m doing wrong.
i've been on and off of multiple abusive relationships, and am now fighting the urge to try to "fix" them. when you described the black hole analogy it made me feel guilty for seeing a person i love so much as something that drains me that much. it made me feel scared that they find out i see them as such. this feeling makes me realize how much energy someone can spend on other people, how much i put into being perfect to them that my own mind isn't safe anymore. thank you for making me see that.
It's heartbreaking really
The most underrated channel on TH-cam. I really needed to watch this video. I had no way to describe the my therapist a lot of the emotions I feel in relationships and I highly identify with the radical codependent empath. I broke off a 5 year friendship because I was the star and she was a blackhole and I watched her hurt (cheat on her girlfriend) when I saw the hurt in the girlfriend I knew my friend was toxic and the relationship needed to end and know I am still friends with her ex. The end of this video really hit me because I don't know how to get out of the cycle of radical empathy and trying to fix others. Definitely a lot to talk about in my next therapy session.
Looking at this makes me aware that frollo from the hunchback of Notre dame was an extreme narcissist, he could never do wrong and do everything he did was righteous. The only time he cracked was when the priest pointed out that all the statues on the cathedral were witness to his crime, so his fear of God attacked his belief that he was holy and made a crack in his armor that made him regret doing it. Course he managed to recover and went back to normal but it really showed the extreme circumstance needed to break through to someone like that.
You made me realise that my last relationship was abusive. I cannot thank you enough, TheraminTrees, for this.
Maybe now I can stop blaming myself for not being enough for her and start seeing other mistakes, ones that once acknowledged, can be solved to become better.
Thanks, truly.
I like your suit of armour analogy, it complements my perception of a codependent as an emotional mannequin, wearing all kinds of emotion and empathy for a response. Even polishing the armour won't work, it's still empty.
oh blessed be the day theramintrees and contrapoints both uploaded
Don't try to save those that don't want to be saved but be there for them when they do.