Getting a couple EW/jammer aircraft up before the F-14s in order to spoof some of the incoming vampires might have made a difference. Realistically the US fleet is automatically on the back foot unless they have CAP and a strike package up and engaging the Soviet fleet before they could get in ASHM range.
The first production model of the AIM-54 was designed specifically to shoot down Soviet anti-ship missiles. It could shoot down aircraft, but its intended purpose was to kill anti-ship missiles before they got close to a carrier. Like they did in this video. By focusing the Tomcats on the Soviet air wing, the whole point of the Phoenix missile was ignored. The first squadron of Tomcats should have been vectored onto the missiles, the second squadron should have been sent against the air wing. The AIM-54C entered service in 1986, which is when this scenario would have taken place. If the first squadron had been sent after the first missile salvo, odds are you wouldn't have lost the carrier. If you replay it, send the fighters after the missiles first.
My understanding is that 80's US carrier defense doctrine very much relied on F-14's launching against the vampires, and then missile defense cleaned up afterwards. Phoenix was very much optimized for that role. In this scenario, you relied on the missile defense system alone. Might get better results if you set it up to where the F-14's could play a role in launching against the vampires.
Exactly correct. The Russian "Saturation Missile Doctrine" isn't a joke. Cap starting the groups at ~300+ miles would have been more of a compromise, and would allow for longer positioning/screening, least i think. Can't wait to play this game and work out these situations.
@@Ereshkigal616 The Shipwrecks can still hit at almost 300nm. The key is to not let them find you. In reality, not only would you get hit by the massive wave of shipwrecks and sandboxes if found, but just a few hours later you'd be facing regiments of Backfires to boot. Keep in mind, in reality, USN doctrine of the era was that any carriers operating anywhere in the vicinity of Iceland during open hostilities would be in task forces of 3 flat tops.
as if IRL the soviet-russian carrier group would be sinking before the US Navy carrier group got in range why? because there's always a attack submarine nearby where the US Navy battle-groups sail
I was a dev in 02-03 for NWS Janes Fleet Command, which this game is a brilliantly modernized version of. I put a lot of tips and tricks in here for how to prosecute this battle, but youtube in it's wisdom (or Cap?) deleted the posts. 1 on 1 USN CVBG vs a Russian CV is a total curb stomp exercise if you do it right. Pro tip: *Always* lead with your prowlers if you have AWACs already aloft. If you don't have AEW up, you want to launch 2 E-2Cs followed by 2 EA-6Bs in nearly every conceivable scenario. As a dev in JFC (which is an extremely similar predecessor), I have fought this sort of battle literally thousands of times. There is definitely a wrong way to do this.
TH-cam likes to delete posts that it's poorly written AI deems bad. Google is failing at the AI race so hard, wish Microsoft would launch a proper TH-cam competitor with their superior AI tools.
Won't lie, strong 'I am desperate and I have no clue what my weapons can do' vibes in the last 10 minutes. Even in the tincan era, 76 mm guns are still pretty much pea shooters if having to work against CV armour on their vital area's. They try to build them to take one or two torp hits and /or missile hits and be recoverable.
AEGIS is a bit underpowered in this game.. considering the first VLS version of the Tico came out in 1986 i hope they add it to the game. The MK-26 twin arm launcher just isnt good enough to get the job done, guess thats why they only made 5 of that version
A big part of this game is locating targets. By having the US CSG start in range of those soviet AShMs and having everything be detected right away you gave the soviets a MASSIVE advantage over the US group. Soviet anti-ship missiles are no joke, and there's a reason why you keep ships and aircraft armed with them as far away a possible. Also, I would shake the habit of calling EA-8's 'SEAD' aircraft, because jamming can be used on far more then just air defenses. Not launching them to try and jam out the initial missile strike was a mistake.
Too close for an actual US carrier group engagement, this kind of set up works in favor of the Soviet doctrine. The carrier would launch waay before the Soviets get in range (Exlusion zone?). Plus you need EW aircraft to deal with those missiles before they are in the air. The Naval Institute has some good articles on why EW is mission critical.
I think the issue you're having Cap, is that these fights are always like, in the 'terminal' phase, 2 carrier groups within 150nm of eachother, there just simply isn't time to react to anything. I think a better way to do it in this game at least, would be to create a scenario where the battle groups are cat & mousing eachother, trying to pinpoint eachother at a greater range and see if you can get the drop on the Reds. I just don't think this game works as well in the 'turn everything on and let it run' style like DCS does.
Incredible job Cap! You’re doing an excellent job running these. Once you get more experienced a larger carrier on carrier battle with iowas and Kirov class escorts plus submarines would be the ultimate carrier battle
hey cap, you can use SEAD against ships, shrikes will home for any radar including those on ships (also leaving damage control in auto might be the best idea)
I never thought I would say this, but I never realized how close 150 nmi actually was. I feel like this distance between the fleets should've been increased, oh well I suppose that can wait for the "real" wargame scenarios. Also, the fact that the AI at this time still can't perform carrier ops properly is an issue. No to mention how ineffective damage control seems to be (there's no way almost all her damage control teams died in those two hits, considering the entire crew knows DC).
An additional comment regarding _Peachtree Road_ on vinyl: This album was released at the nadir of vinyl record manufacturing and Elton’s albums were being released on CD and Cassette only. About 8 months after the album’s release, the “Special Edition” was released on vinyl and CD with the 3 bonus _Billy Elliot_ songs. I don’t know how many were pressed, but apparently very few of them made it into consumers’ hands as Record Collector estimates its value at £350 even after the 2022 vinyl reissue, making it perhaps the most valuable regular issue Elton LP (I would place the value closer to £200-250). Who would have guessed that??
When it comes to your damage control in these games you put it on what is on fire and flooding first then move on to critical systems that need repair and with more dc parties on on area the fast it is fixed
Remember your Standard missiles (all versions) also have a very effective antiship missile mode. Once they are in range, a Tico is going to overwhelm any target with Standards pretty fast.
This episode actually shows one of the reasons why the Soviets may have favoured "aviation cruisers" rather than full fledged carriers in the 70s when they might have been able to crank out an Orel. A MiG-23 just isn't competitive against an F-14, so even if they build one carrier, it'd be significantly inferior to its American counterpart. And then any anti-ship aircraft, even if they have them, would be massacred. Any carrier will need to be backed by substantial numbers of land based aircraft to match the combat potential of a single American carrier. If this Orel had a heavier set of P-700s instead of those vulnerable anti-ship aircraft, at least according to Sea Power your carrier might have gone down completely, along with the escorts. In the 80s with the introduction of the Flanker series, there's more hope of equality, and the Soviet carrier program began to move towards bigger and better ships. Then the USSR ran out of time and broke up. Had that not happened, we might actually have considered that whole sequence a sound move.
CAP: The *EA-6B is enormously powerful* in this game (as in real life) ALWAYS launch your EA-6B first, they are incredibly effective against incoming missile strikes, and just as effective "escorting" your own missiles in on your own strikes. In this game EA-6Bs can also pretty much entirely shut down the IADS of en enemy fleet.
@@julhelm1821 I tend to agree, but as they exist right now, in game the EA-6B is an incredibly powerful tool. I was a dev for NWS Janes Fleet Command back around 2002-03. I am really impressed with what you guys have built here. Once you get the AI right, WOW.
@@Valorius Standard missiles are much better in the game now, but people need to realize that at the time they still had limitations against sea-skimming targets, and the very large Soviet AShMs like P500 and P700 carry their own onboard DECM and decoys.
@@julhelm1821 Understood and agreed, however the SPY-1 had incredibly impressive burn through capability compared to any other system of it's era. I'm not saying the Standards should be "magic wands" by any means though. I definitely agree with you there. Of course the flip side for the large soviet AShMs is that even with their impressive onboard systems, they were massive targets with equally massive RCS and IR signatures. I look forward to seeing how you guys refine the game over time.
You spent a minute right at the start just watching the Russian missiles launch. Then you spent 5 minutes just chitchatting before actually setting up the US ships. The Russian missiles are halfway here. Then you started launching F14s. Other than a basic CAP, which should have been in place BEFORE the Russian missiles launch, the F14s were secondary, because any threat from Russian planes would be second to arrive. Remember those Russian ship-killing missiles launched right at the start? They're going to arrive before you even start launching the A6s, which are your only anti-ship response. So you should have been launching A6s FIRST, so that you at least have a counterstrike in the air even if the soon-to-arrive missile disable your carrier. Send up the Prowlers with them--that's what they're for. Then the rest of your F14s, followed by S3s (which can also launch Harpoons). If your carrier's still capable, launch the A7s with any mix of air-to-surface weapons to finish off damaged ships. Lack of Harpoons doesn't make them useless. It does suck that you have to set up each plane individually. Are you sure you can't assign instructions to each flight of aircraft, at least? And can you do so during a pause? That would be realistic, since you are the task force commander, not the many junior officers issuing the detail instructions.
When you're under missile attack, you go to full ahead and turn your stern towards the missile. When you're about half way through the turn you shoot your chaff. Remember that chaff is there to make a bigger radar contact for the missile than your ship is. I'm a RN vet and have been under missile attack more than once.
I think you should have used an actual carrier group the Soviets had during that period. I’m 52 and grew up in the 70’-80’s with the “real” threat of war with the Soviets. Funny enough, since I was a young boy I always wanted to join the USAF. By the time I graduated High School in 1990, Soviets weren’t a threat anymore, I started basic training on Aug.2 1990, the day Iraq invaded Kuwait. FML! 🤦♂️
ELINT is a must, I didn't know enough on how to use it setting up DCS missions. I play a lot of CMO's, there I learned very fast to use it to protect the fleet. Seems in Sea Power is going to be a must with supporting AWAC's
When you lost the A-6s you should have tried to launch the S-3s with Harpoon. The Prowler jammers should have been helpful during US anti-ship attack. In DCS and Sea Power the missile exchanges always come down to depletion of the enemies' SAM capability. Aegis should be able to handle the high speed Soviet threats. Too bad the US only has subsonic anti-ship missiles. This is a tough era as the only Aegis are Ticos and the low end OHP and Spruance are relatively defenseless. Use your Kidd class and any other major missile cruiser/destroyer to their fullest.
I still need to finish the battle, but a couple of comments already from the start. I have to imagine US carrier battle group would’ve already had its planes in the air. By the time it was 150 nautical miles from the Soviet carrier group. The AWACs would’ve already seen the ships and the Nimitz have already launched a strike package against the Soviet group. An A6 intruder has an over 800 nautical mile range and then the harpoons go even further. The Soviet carriers group should have already been subjected to multiple waves of American attack air aircraft by now. The American task force would’ve tried everything it could to stay outside the Soviet missile range and hit it with planes from further away, never mind that there would have been an F14 cap up already. finally, a repeat complaint from the Iowa versus Kirov battle: start ordering your American ships when the game is paused at the beginning. The US is losing precious minutes at the start while all the orders are issued. Meanwhile, the Soviets have already launched their attacks because they aren’t waiting for a human to tell them what to do. “ why can’t the Americans have bigger guns?” My brother in Christ, you seem to have forgotten that an Iowa could have been put with this TF. Also can the MK 46 torpedoes be used against surface ships? Maybe could’ve tried firing those.
Hey Cap @GrimReapers. The F-14s should have also been able to intercept those anti-ship missiles. Perhaps send one squadron of Tomcats into a MigCap and the second could have been sent to counter the incoming ASW missiles.
Questions: 1. If both sides start fully aware of each other's position, then shouldn't there already be a CAP in the air at the start of the mission? 2. Can the fighter wing be set to BARCAP or CAP over a station so that you shouldn't micro them at all times? 3. Can the F-14's engage cruise missiles?
Letting that one ship chip away and destroy your frigate to get rounds on the carrier wasn't at all frustrating. Poor digital sea men 😢 . Definitely seemed like an unbalanced start to the game with the Russians onslaught. Putting a wall of interceptors up to engage the incoming vampires seems like the way to go. Seems like DCS carrier groups have much higher pk ratio
No EW aircraft were used, no torpedoes were launched by Tico and destroyers, started too close together which benefited Soviets, used F14 only to attack air wing instead of missile waves. I think you could have a better chance at winning with some of these.
It feels so odd, those P-700’s with all their bells and whistles should perform well- I won’t deny that- but they seem unavoidable in this game. Like, you might as well just abandon ship at the first vampire call if you know they’re P-700’s.
How about late 80's, during the Iran-Iraq War. As you know Iran shares a shoreline with the Black Sea, although it was very much the Soviet's bathtub. Let's say for fun that Iran has some of it's major combatants off their coast with boghammers. They messed around and sunk Soviet merchants. Now Russia is pissed, and they're sending the Black Sea fleet to send a lesson. The fleet consists of two parts. At the vanguard is a battle group centered around the Kiev with a versatile group of escorts, particularly air defense, because Iran will have 2 airbases and a port. Those will be the primary objectives. In trail of the main fleet will be a large amphibian group tasked with sailing to the landing point next to the port. They will have escorts, but not to the extent of the main force. You may place a diesel sub if you like. To the best of my knowledge Russia never used nukes in the Black Sea due to it's limited size and depth. Since I still have 2 weeks to wait until I can even buy the game, then have to spend even more time learning how to play it. I would love if you can put this together. Then I can learn from your experience at the same time. Thank you for all the great content your channel has been producing over the years.
"Minor" correction, Iran doesn't have maritime borders with the Black Sea. It has maritime borders with the Caspian Sea which was at the time a Soviet Bathtub like you said.
I mean... at least the AI has learned to actually launch any aircraft beside AWACS from its carriers xD one or two versions ago, this battle might have gone quite a bit different
6:26 That should be 1 Slava (strike/aa) + 2 Sovremenny(aa/strike) + 1 Udaloi(asw). Or 2 Kara (asw/aa) + 3 Sovremenny (aa/strike). Or, if went completely mad, 1 Kirov(strike/aa/asw) + 1 Udaloi(asw) + 2 Krivak(asw)
Could you have used the MK16s or are they just for sub-surface? also you should have used the jamming aircraft as they do more than just jam SAMs, atleast IRL
It's a real design that pretty much would have been equal to a Forrestal. That's what makes it interesting to add and see how developing that could have changed things compared to the real Kiev VTOL carrier hybrids they actually built. We will be adding what-if US units such as CSGN as well down the road for the same reason.
"what are you supposed to do to defeat [P-700s]". - keep your distance: carrier aircraft with harpoons have a much greater strike range than soviet ASMS (this is why the carrier air wing is the USN's principal offensive tool) - see the enemy before they see you: make full use of EMCON and your recon aircraft. Been studying naval warfare for a long while, post WW2, the winners and losers are usually determined by positioning and recon before the first shot is even fired. Most naval battles are extremely one sided, mutual destruction isn't really a thing Basically, as the USN, every battle should be fought by the carrier aircraft. Strike aircraft for anti-surface and tomcats far out against bombers before they launch their missiles. SAMs are your get-out-of-jail card and if they're being fired something's already gone very wrong. 18:14
definitely need to increase the ranges. this game is much more realistic with ranges so 150nm is way too close to deal with. Way better than DCS though. feels a lot more believable
This has probably been said, but this game models jamming. Those old small soviet missile radars were easy to jam. Launch your prowlers and most of those missiles will prob miss.
You should probably stop immediately giving both sides full awacs coverage. Thats a masisve advantage to the soviets especially at the "closer" ranges you already start the battles at
It was infuriating seeing how long it took from the scenario starting before you even started launching planes from the carrier. Gave the other team an enormous advantage. Can you not pause the game to issue a bunch of commands before going to watch the red missile launches?
sorry to be that guy, but that is not a 1980s carrier group. as of 1985 the soviet union had 5 carriers, namely three Kiev class carriers and two moskva class ships. as you said yourselv, the orel never went past the planning stage. id be interested to see an actual 1980s strike force compete here.
So, these Soviet Carrier assets (the Carrier itself and it's aircraft) seem pure fantasy... Why have the dev's added them? Thought this was going to be a realistic game?
@@christopherchartier3017 In comparable numbers sure. But the soviet doctrine was supposed to pit 100s of missiles against a CSG and employ diversion and jamming to break trough its defences. It is arguable if it would have worked, because of the "leaky" nature of soviet intelligence and the amount of people a raid like that would involve but that was the plan. On the other hand submarines look rather underpowered in this game, given how easy they get detected. Compared to real world case of two subs literally bumping into each other without knowing. Submarines were the real chance soviets had for an all out war with US/NATO, and that was not just for nukes. That is why they were constantly surveyed and shadowed, and it was a serious concern if you had some unaccounted for.
Cap the only thing i see wrong with this senario is the tactis used, America wouldnt sail its carrier without jets already being in the air, they would be expecting this! You hamstrung the US from the beginning
This is ridiculous I keep having 3-4 minutes of ads before the video even plays,it is so so very annoying Sorry Cap I'm not waiting that long every video I watch I'll go over to rumble
Every time I watch this guy play in this system, all the damage control parties are wiped out. EVERY TIME. I don't know from battleships, and Russian Battlecruisers, but an american Aircraft carrier carries 5,000 people. You CANNOT wipe out all but one damage control team. This simulator is complete trash. And an American CAG would send his strike forces in as a group not one at a time as they are launched from the carrier. The AI of this simulation is just too stupid.
Getting a couple EW/jammer aircraft up before the F-14s in order to spoof some of the incoming vampires might have made a difference. Realistically the US fleet is automatically on the back foot unless they have CAP and a strike package up and engaging the Soviet fleet before they could get in ASHM range.
It makes an enormous difference. 2 EA-6Bs should almost always go up first, with few exceptions.
@@Valorius Yep. I also want to add that the F14s also can attack missiles in flight.
The first production model of the AIM-54 was designed specifically to shoot down Soviet anti-ship missiles. It could shoot down aircraft, but its intended purpose was to kill anti-ship missiles before they got close to a carrier. Like they did in this video. By focusing the Tomcats on the Soviet air wing, the whole point of the Phoenix missile was ignored. The first squadron of Tomcats should have been vectored onto the missiles, the second squadron should have been sent against the air wing. The AIM-54C entered service in 1986, which is when this scenario would have taken place. If the first squadron had been sent after the first missile salvo, odds are you wouldn't have lost the carrier.
If you replay it, send the fighters after the missiles first.
"we're at an impass" while less than 1km from enemy carrier with a ship loaded with 16 mark 46 torpedos....
I was like what the hell, torpedoes dude
My understanding is that 80's US carrier defense doctrine very much relied on F-14's launching against the vampires, and then missile defense cleaned up afterwards. Phoenix was very much optimized for that role. In this scenario, you relied on the missile defense system alone. Might get better results if you set it up to where the F-14's could play a role in launching against the vampires.
There is a reason the US Navy doesn't let the Russian surface forces get that close.
Exactly correct. The Russian "Saturation Missile Doctrine" isn't a joke. Cap starting the groups at ~300+ miles would have been more of a compromise, and would allow for longer positioning/screening, least i think. Can't wait to play this game and work out these situations.
@@Ereshkigal616 The Shipwrecks can still hit at almost 300nm. The key is to not let them find you.
In reality, not only would you get hit by the massive wave of shipwrecks and sandboxes if found, but just a few hours later you'd be facing regiments of Backfires to boot.
Keep in mind, in reality, USN doctrine of the era was that any carriers operating anywhere in the vicinity of Iceland during open hostilities would be in task forces of 3 flat tops.
as if
IRL the soviet-russian carrier group would be sinking before the US Navy carrier group got in range
why?
because there's always a attack submarine nearby where the US Navy battle-groups sail
@@armandorodrigues144same for US carrier groups.
I was a dev in 02-03 for NWS Janes Fleet Command, which this game is a brilliantly modernized version of. I put a lot of tips and tricks in here for how to prosecute this battle, but youtube in it's wisdom (or Cap?) deleted the posts.
1 on 1 USN CVBG vs a Russian CV is a total curb stomp exercise if you do it right. Pro tip: *Always* lead with your prowlers if you have AWACs already aloft. If you don't have AEW up, you want to launch 2 E-2Cs followed by 2 EA-6Bs in nearly every conceivable scenario.
As a dev in JFC (which is an extremely similar predecessor), I have fought this sort of battle literally thousands of times. There is definitely a wrong way to do this.
TH-cam likes to delete posts that it's poorly written AI deems bad.
Google is failing at the AI race so hard, wish Microsoft would launch a proper TH-cam competitor with their superior AI tools.
@@NemoGraynameA8 Supposedly X is going to do that. We can only hope.
Won't lie, strong 'I am desperate and I have no clue what my weapons can do' vibes in the last 10 minutes. Even in the tincan era, 76 mm guns are still pretty much pea shooters if having to work against CV armour on their vital area's. They try to build them to take one or two torp hits and /or missile hits and be recoverable.
AEGIS is a bit underpowered in this game.. considering the first VLS version of the Tico came out in 1986 i hope they add it to the game. The MK-26 twin arm launcher just isnt good enough to get the job done, guess thats why they only made 5 of that version
I do think SAM’s need to be buffed on both sides. Particularly US but even soviet SAM’s seem unreliable.
The game takes place in 1983 the latest I think
@papatango2362 yeah hopefully they get it figured out in the full release
@@christopherchartier3017 oh ok.. well maybe they'll buff the Tico lol it was state of the art back in the 80s
Sp current cut off date is 1985
A big part of this game is locating targets. By having the US CSG start in range of those soviet AShMs and having everything be detected right away you gave the soviets a MASSIVE advantage over the US group. Soviet anti-ship missiles are no joke, and there's a reason why you keep ships and aircraft armed with them as far away a possible. Also, I would shake the habit of calling EA-8's 'SEAD' aircraft, because jamming can be used on far more then just air defenses. Not launching them to try and jam out the initial missile strike was a mistake.
Too close for an actual US carrier group engagement, this kind of set up works in favor of the Soviet doctrine. The carrier would launch waay before the Soviets get in range (Exlusion zone?). Plus you need EW aircraft to deal with those missiles before they are in the air.
The Naval Institute has some good articles on why EW is mission critical.
I think the issue you're having Cap, is that these fights are always like, in the 'terminal' phase, 2 carrier groups within 150nm of eachother, there just simply isn't time to react to anything. I think a better way to do it in this game at least, would be to create a scenario where the battle groups are cat & mousing eachother, trying to pinpoint eachother at a greater range and see if you can get the drop on the Reds. I just don't think this game works as well in the 'turn everything on and let it run' style like DCS does.
Incredible job Cap! You’re doing an excellent job running these. Once you get more experienced a larger carrier on carrier battle with iowas and Kirov class escorts plus submarines would be the ultimate carrier battle
Thank you for making my request come true, I hope to see you make another one of these when the game is fully released
hey cap, you can use SEAD against ships, shrikes will home for any radar including those on ships
(also leaving damage control in auto might be the best idea)
I’m digging these sealer videos. It opens up a whole new line of videos for you guys.
I never thought I would say this, but I never realized how close 150 nmi actually was. I feel like this distance between the fleets should've been increased, oh well I suppose that can wait for the "real" wargame scenarios.
Also, the fact that the AI at this time still can't perform carrier ops properly is an issue. No to mention how ineffective damage control seems to be (there's no way almost all her damage control teams died in those two hits, considering the entire crew knows DC).
Yes! Hell yes. Best battle of many others creators of Sea Power. Feel like u step up an level - so greatful. Many Thanks for all hard work.
Brilliant video cap and a nice look at the same DCS Scenarios but run in other games. Very refreshing!
That's what I was waiting for, perfect ❤
Finally, someone uploaded carrier vs carrier gameplay.
An additional comment regarding _Peachtree Road_ on vinyl: This album was released at the nadir of vinyl record manufacturing and Elton’s albums were being released on CD and Cassette only. About 8 months after the album’s release, the “Special Edition” was released on vinyl and CD with the 3 bonus _Billy Elliot_ songs. I don’t know how many were pressed, but apparently very few of them made it into consumers’ hands as Record Collector estimates its value at £350 even after the 2022 vinyl reissue, making it perhaps the most valuable regular issue Elton LP (I would place the value closer to £200-250). Who would have guessed that??
When it comes to your damage control in these games you put it on what is on fire and flooding first then move on to critical systems that need repair and with more dc parties on on area the fast it is fixed
Been looking forward for this!
This game has way more of a tension to it than DCS naval simulations. Think I need this in my life.
Remember your Standard missiles (all versions) also have a very effective antiship missile mode. Once they are in range, a Tico is going to overwhelm any target with Standards pretty fast.
I can’t wait for the full release of this game
“We might hit the carrier” I Lied!. Nice one Cap , great entertainment thanks.
Another Soviet fantasy comes into play. Iinventive as always, Cap! I never miss an episode!
This episode actually shows one of the reasons why the Soviets may have favoured "aviation cruisers" rather than full fledged carriers in the 70s when they might have been able to crank out an Orel. A MiG-23 just isn't competitive against an F-14, so even if they build one carrier, it'd be significantly inferior to its American counterpart. And then any anti-ship aircraft, even if they have them, would be massacred. Any carrier will need to be backed by substantial numbers of land based aircraft to match the combat potential of a single American carrier.
If this Orel had a heavier set of P-700s instead of those vulnerable anti-ship aircraft, at least according to Sea Power your carrier might have gone down completely, along with the escorts.
In the 80s with the introduction of the Flanker series, there's more hope of equality, and the Soviet carrier program began to move towards bigger and better ships. Then the USSR ran out of time and broke up. Had that not happened, we might actually have considered that whole sequence a sound move.
Love these massive size scenarios
CAP: The *EA-6B is enormously powerful* in this game (as in real life) ALWAYS launch your EA-6B first, they are incredibly effective against incoming missile strikes, and just as effective "escorting" your own missiles in on your own strikes. In this game EA-6Bs can also pretty much entirely shut down the IADS of en enemy fleet.
We might have made the offensive jammers a little too powerful actually.
@@julhelm1821 I tend to agree, but as they exist right now, in game the EA-6B is an incredibly powerful tool.
I was a dev for NWS Janes Fleet Command back around 2002-03. I am really impressed with what you guys have built here. Once you get the AI right, WOW.
@@julhelm1821 I think the Standard missiles should probably be a bit better too.
@@Valorius Standard missiles are much better in the game now, but people need to realize that at the time they still had limitations against sea-skimming targets, and the very large Soviet AShMs like P500 and P700 carry their own onboard DECM and decoys.
@@julhelm1821 Understood and agreed, however the SPY-1 had incredibly impressive burn through capability compared to any other system of it's era. I'm not saying the Standards should be "magic wands" by any means though. I definitely agree with you there.
Of course the flip side for the large soviet AShMs is that even with their impressive onboard systems, they were massive targets with equally massive RCS and IR signatures.
I look forward to seeing how you guys refine the game over time.
You spent a minute right at the start just watching the Russian missiles launch. Then you spent 5 minutes just chitchatting before actually setting up the US ships. The Russian missiles are halfway here. Then you started launching F14s. Other than a basic CAP, which should have been in place BEFORE the Russian missiles launch, the F14s were secondary, because any threat from Russian planes would be second to arrive. Remember those Russian ship-killing missiles launched right at the start? They're going to arrive before you even start launching the A6s, which are your only anti-ship response. So you should have been launching A6s FIRST, so that you at least have a counterstrike in the air even if the soon-to-arrive missile disable your carrier. Send up the Prowlers with them--that's what they're for. Then the rest of your F14s, followed by S3s (which can also launch Harpoons). If your carrier's still capable, launch the A7s with any mix of air-to-surface weapons to finish off damaged ships. Lack of Harpoons doesn't make them useless.
It does suck that you have to set up each plane individually. Are you sure you can't assign instructions to each flight of aircraft, at least? And can you do so during a pause? That would be realistic, since you are the task force commander, not the many junior officers issuing the detail instructions.
In the early 80s all US carrier groups included 2 Nuke cruisers. For the Nimitz it was usually the Texas and the California.
When you're under missile attack, you go to full ahead and turn your stern towards the missile. When you're about half way through the turn you shoot your chaff. Remember that chaff is there to make a bigger radar contact for the missile than your ship is. I'm a RN vet and have been under missile attack more than once.
You should redo this scenario and player control both sides because the EW aircraft are essential for jamming incoming missiles
Next time should do one where there distance is vast and it’s down to the aircraft to find each others fleet
I think you should have used an actual carrier group the Soviets had during that period. I’m 52 and grew up in the 70’-80’s with the “real” threat of war with the Soviets. Funny enough, since I was a young boy I always wanted to join the USAF. By the time I graduated High School in 1990, Soviets weren’t a threat anymore, I started basic training on Aug.2 1990, the day Iraq invaded Kuwait. FML! 🤦♂️
ELINT is a must, I didn't know enough on how to use it setting up DCS missions. I play a lot of CMO's, there I learned very fast to use it to protect the fleet. Seems in Sea Power is going to be a must with supporting AWAC's
I doubt they would have performed as per specs. From what I've seen post cold war the USA and NATO over estimated almost all of the USSR's toys.
When you lost the A-6s you should have tried to launch the S-3s with Harpoon. The Prowler jammers should have been helpful during US anti-ship attack.
In DCS and Sea Power the missile exchanges always come down to depletion of the enemies' SAM capability. Aegis should be able to handle the high speed Soviet threats. Too bad the US only has subsonic anti-ship missiles.
This is a tough era as the only Aegis are Ticos and the low end OHP and Spruance are relatively defenseless. Use your Kidd class and any other major missile cruiser/destroyer to their fullest.
I still need to finish the battle, but a couple of comments already from the start. I have to imagine US carrier battle group would’ve already had its planes in the air. By the time it was 150 nautical miles from the Soviet carrier group. The AWACs would’ve already seen the ships and the Nimitz have already launched a strike package against the Soviet group. An A6 intruder has an over 800 nautical mile range and then the harpoons go even further. The Soviet carriers group should have already been subjected to multiple waves of American attack air aircraft by now. The American task force would’ve tried everything it could to stay outside the Soviet missile range and hit it with planes from further away, never mind that there would have been an F14 cap up already. finally, a repeat complaint from the Iowa versus Kirov battle: start ordering your American ships when the game is paused at the beginning. The US is losing precious minutes at the start while all the orders are issued. Meanwhile, the Soviets have already launched their attacks because they aren’t waiting for a human to tell them what to do.
“ why can’t the Americans have bigger guns?” My brother in Christ, you seem to have forgotten that an Iowa could have been put with this TF.
Also can the MK 46 torpedoes be used against surface ships? Maybe could’ve tried firing those.
I love how the Soviets crammed missiles into every ship, even carriers had super potent missiles
Let the Damage Control do their job automatically; there is no reason to try repair when you still had a heavy fire in two compartments.
Hey Cap @GrimReapers. The F-14s should have also been able to intercept those anti-ship missiles. Perhaps send one squadron of Tomcats into a MigCap and the second could have been sent to counter the incoming ASW missiles.
Questions:
1. If both sides start fully aware of each other's position, then shouldn't there already be a CAP in the air at the start of the mission?
2. Can the fighter wing be set to BARCAP or CAP over a station so that you shouldn't micro them at all times?
3. Can the F-14's engage cruise missiles?
Letting that one ship chip away and destroy your frigate to get rounds on the carrier wasn't at all frustrating. Poor digital sea men 😢 . Definitely seemed like an unbalanced start to the game with the Russians onslaught. Putting a wall of interceptors up to engage the incoming vampires seems like the way to go. Seems like DCS carrier groups have much higher pk ratio
No EW aircraft were used, no torpedoes were launched by Tico and destroyers, started too close together which benefited Soviets, used F14 only to attack air wing instead of missile waves. I think you could have a better chance at winning with some of these.
I prefer the battles where both sides are more or less AI since they reduces the element of human skill. Hopefully there’ll be a spectator mode soon?
I have seen one of these content creators know to use jamming. Clearly never plated Harpoon.
More Harpoon classics!
It feels so odd, those P-700’s with all their bells and whistles should perform well- I won’t deny that- but they seem unavoidable in this game. Like, you might as well just abandon ship at the first vampire call if you know they’re P-700’s.
because thats what they are irl lol
those missiles were created to destroy us carrier groups, no shit they are strong
The 1980’s US Navy had legacy Hornets too.
How about late 80's, during the Iran-Iraq War. As you know Iran shares a shoreline with the Black Sea, although it was very much the Soviet's bathtub. Let's say for fun that Iran has some of it's major combatants off their coast with boghammers. They messed around and sunk Soviet merchants. Now Russia is pissed, and they're sending the Black Sea fleet to send a lesson. The fleet consists of two parts. At the vanguard is a battle group centered around the Kiev with a versatile group of escorts, particularly air defense, because Iran will have 2 airbases and a port. Those will be the primary objectives. In trail of the main fleet will be a large amphibian group tasked with sailing to the landing point next to the port. They will have escorts, but not to the extent of the main force. You may place a diesel sub if you like. To the best of my knowledge Russia never used nukes in the Black Sea due to it's limited size and depth. Since I still have 2 weeks to wait until I can even buy the game, then have to spend even more time learning how to play it. I would love if you can put this together. Then I can learn from your experience at the same time. Thank you for all the great content your channel has been producing over the years.
"Minor" correction, Iran doesn't have maritime borders with the Black Sea. It has maritime borders with the Caspian Sea which was at the time a Soviet Bathtub like you said.
I think CAP is a descendant of the commanders of the Light Brigade. :)
Cap electronic warfare are important in this.
I mean... at least the AI has learned to actually launch any aircraft beside AWACS from its carriers xD
one or two versions ago, this battle might have gone quite a bit different
Were the tomcats not able to intercept ASM’s with their Phoenix missiles?
6:26 That should be 1 Slava (strike/aa) + 2 Sovremenny(aa/strike) + 1 Udaloi(asw). Or 2 Kara (asw/aa) + 3 Sovremenny (aa/strike). Or, if went completely mad, 1 Kirov(strike/aa/asw) + 1 Udaloi(asw) + 2 Krivak(asw)
Ha, you did read my comment from the previous video 👌
Could you have used the MK16s or are they just for sub-surface? also you should have used the jamming aircraft as they do more than just jam SAMs, atleast IRL
Hi Cap, you didn't use any jamming aircraft!
Cap,, don't know if your squadron is aware of this, but in WW2, the 493rd fighter squadron, 9th Air Force, was known as the Grim Reapers.
I live next to 493rd in real life now.
FC should have been on Auto for the CV...Did you forget you had Mk46 torps on your ships in the end battle?
I feel like to counter stuff like the kirov or orel they need to add the vls tico or flight 1 arleigh burke which were both 1989 vehicles
The opposite to snakeeyes is boxcars, round this neck of the woods.
Wait so the game added a carrier that the Soviets never made? In that case I know of some ufo designs the navy considered maybe we can add them?
It's a "What if" scenario
It's a real design that pretty much would have been equal to a Forrestal. That's what makes it interesting to add and see how developing that could have changed things compared to the real Kiev VTOL carrier hybrids they actually built. We will be adding what-if US units such as CSGN as well down the road for the same reason.
helicopters with torpedos?
The Perry has torpedoes right?, or are they only anti sub?
"what are you supposed to do to defeat [P-700s]".
- keep your distance: carrier aircraft with harpoons have a much greater strike range than soviet ASMS (this is why the carrier air wing is the USN's principal offensive tool)
- see the enemy before they see you: make full use of EMCON and your recon aircraft. Been studying naval warfare for a long while, post WW2, the winners and losers are usually determined by positioning and recon before the first shot is even fired. Most naval battles are extremely one sided, mutual destruction isn't really a thing
Basically, as the USN, every battle should be fought by the carrier aircraft. Strike aircraft for anti-surface and tomcats far out against bombers before they launch their missiles. SAMs are your get-out-of-jail card and if they're being fired something's already gone very wrong. 18:14
The ships will automatically chaff at the optimal moment.
5 mins to launch US Aircraft ?
definitely need to increase the ranges. this game is much more realistic with ranges so 150nm is way too close to deal with.
Way better than DCS though. feels a lot more believable
HOHOO IT BEGINS
This is driving me nuts… what is the Soviet twin engine strike/awacs aircraft??? Viking-ski?
This has probably been said, but this game models jamming. Those old small soviet missile radars were easy to jam. Launch your prowlers and most of those missiles will prob miss.
1980s US carrier fleet with the Iowa or New Jersey BB
You should probably stop immediately giving both sides full awacs coverage. Thats a masisve advantage to the soviets especially at the "closer" ranges you already start the battles at
It was infuriating seeing how long it took from the scenario starting before you even started launching planes from the carrier. Gave the other team an enormous advantage. Can you not pause the game to issue a bunch of commands before going to watch the red missile launches?
Doesn't that last surviving frigate have torpedo's?
sorry to be that guy, but that is not a 1980s carrier group. as of 1985 the soviet union had 5 carriers, namely three Kiev class carriers and two moskva class ships. as you said yourselv, the orel never went past the planning stage. id be interested to see an actual 1980s strike force compete here.
So, these Soviet Carrier assets (the Carrier itself and it's aircraft) seem pure fantasy... Why have the dev's added them? Thought this was going to be a realistic game?
with every video this seem to be one more of those games that have the soviets over-performing
Thanks!
Still no submarines?
This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
Impasse “Torpedoes”
Could you play as russians next time?
500 iranian balistic missile vs israeli air defense can u ?
Do some scenarios out of Tom Clancy’s “Red Storm Rising” please & thank you
Could not Growlers be used to intervene, electronically, with russian missiles?
Weird a game insisting on realistic simulation has imaginary units. Developers always feel they need to inject some confused sense of balance....
Because if they used solely real units then the USSR would get leveled every time
where is it "insisting on realistic simulation"? Because i can't find one thing on the steam page indicating that. It's a game, get over it.
@@christopherchartier3017 In comparable numbers sure. But the soviet doctrine was supposed to pit 100s of missiles against a CSG and employ diversion and jamming to break trough its defences. It is arguable if it would have worked, because of the "leaky" nature of soviet intelligence and the amount of people a raid like that would involve but that was the plan. On the other hand submarines look rather underpowered in this game, given how easy they get detected. Compared to real world case of two subs literally bumping into each other without knowing. Submarines were the real chance soviets had for an all out war with US/NATO, and that was not just for nukes. That is why they were constantly surveyed and shadowed, and it was a serious concern if you had some unaccounted for.
@@iamjames8200 The entirety of the gameplay design? But it's ok, I get that you don't get it.
Your more than welcome to make your own game.
its not very grim reapers is it? i mean no synchronised ejections after landing or losing a wing on take off.
"Synchronised ejection"?
Is that a euphemism for something?
Why no torpedoes
Cap the only thing i see wrong with this senario is the tactis used, America wouldnt sail its carrier without jets already being in the air, they would be expecting this! You hamstrung the US from the beginning
This is ridiculous I keep having 3-4 minutes of ads before the video even plays,it is so so very annoying Sorry Cap I'm not waiting that long every video I watch I'll go over to rumble
First! As always, thank you for the content!!
you didnt ram the Orel with the frigates at the end, disliked xd
Every time I watch this guy play in this system, all the damage control parties are wiped out. EVERY TIME. I don't know from battleships, and Russian Battlecruisers, but an american Aircraft carrier carries 5,000 people. You CANNOT wipe out all but one damage control team. This simulator is complete trash.
And an American CAG would send his strike forces in as a group not one at a time as they are launched from the carrier. The AI of this simulation is just too stupid.
😂
Just a minor sidenote: It is Oryol in english phonetic, not Orel. Орёл pr: "Or'yol" means Eagle.