I believe internet archive are behind their own “hack”. They lost a suit and been in constant battle with the gov so this would send a message how much IA is needed.
IMHO reselling an open source product and then not fairly contributing back is fucked up and i won't be sad of their venture burns to the ground. On the other hand Mr. Mullenweg should have been talking to a lawyer and a PR consultant because he's making himself look like a child despite having a valid point. Edit: Please also understand that there is a world of difference between using an open source project as one of many subcomponents for a novel product or system you put a lot of time and effort into building yourself and then selling that, and what WP Engine is doing; outright taking an open source project as your sole selling point, making tens of millions, and keeping it all to yourself. I don't think that "providing hosting services" is transformative or novel in the slightest. Edit edit: Not using donated communal effort for self enrichment IS a moral requirement to me and i will die on that hill. Matt has gone insane but that does not excuse what WP Engine is doing either. Edit edit edit: Special request for MarkEm
The morality is irrelevant to the legality of the situation. The licence said anyone can copy change and proffit off the code, so long as it's still using a gpl3 license. If you want people to be forced to contribute, use a non-commercial license
I completely agree. I think he is definitely on the right and what he is standing for is definitely a go but the way it has been handled gonna probably bite him in the ***.
@@crypnosis9871 No there is nothing deceptive about it. Many WordPress related software and services use "WP" in their brand. It's an easy way to let people know that you offer WordPress related software or services, which DOES NOT infringe upon the WordPress trademark. Such businesses also, by necessity have to refer to WordPress in some way, otherwise know one would know their product/service is useful for WordPress. I, as a long time WordPress user have never confused any such service as being officially affiliated with WordPress. Furthermore if anyone is confused by that, it's not the fault of the entity using "WP" in their brand.
Yes, I was previously under this impression too. It’s very unusual to have a company name with another trademark abbreviation in it but unaffiliated in practice.
there are numerous self-hosted open source products with companies dedicated to providing services around them and uses some associative naming.... is reading the skill issue?
Same, I was a 20 year old tasked with making a website for my church, learned a ton and part of it was realizing straight-up html was faster and easier.
same. wordpress started as plogging system and this is all it is. all those plugins and nonsense is just confusing. i used to make websites around 2010 til like 2018, i used other systems, such as e107, phpbb, opencart ..etc, but wordpress was horrible. some customers asked for it and it was nightmare to make, they later complained that this doesn't work and that's wrong ..etc, but i just said "nope, not my problem, i told you it's a bad idea". some of them even got "hacked" due known vulnerabilities, i just refused to deal with them. i checked some of those websites years later and guess what? doesn't look like wordpress anymore, guess they finally realized how bad it was.
Never side with private equity firms. They'll make your life miserable as their employee or their customer, they'll stab you in the back and fire you the minute they think it will be profitable (which will probably be seconds after they acquire the company you work for). This doesn't take from the point that you might not want to side with Automattic either. That's valid too.
Runescape was bought by one of these and they immediately forced in LGBT pride events. Prior to this every single update was polled and needed 75%+ of player votes to get added to the game.
@@Kinnr_ That's horrible! Not having ever been laid, Runescape players still fear cooties, it's too much for their mental health to introduce the idea of homosexual relationships!
@@TheUncannyObserver Even if we don't have a problem with LGBT and even if we support it, let's not pretend like this isn't just a company trying to make profit and will turn it's back on the idea should it not be profitable, It's a very bad foundation and I wouldn't really be making much comments considering how the opperate
They exist but you won't hear about them in the news. The main issues are bad bets on whom PE invests in, or investing in companies that depend on exploiting the end user for their business model.
@@SlimShady-gs8pl and yet you named no examples; the degredation of open source software by private interests who soley care about money demands free-loading at some point. Matt may be playing some of his cards wrong, but I think protecting the meaning of FOSS is more important
It does feel like the WordPress ecosystem is getting more chaotic, especially with the constant updates and plugin conflicts. It's hard to keep track of what works and what breaks.
Agreed. They’re focusing too much on the block editor (Gutenberg) and neglecting other aspects. Many users didn’t even ask for half the changes they're rolling out.
It's not just the core WordPress changes. The plugin developers are all over the place too. Some updates fix bugs, while others introduce more issues. I think WordPress needs to set clearer guidelines for plugin development.
It’s also frustrating that themes are constantly affected by these updates. You build a site, everything works fine, and then a WordPress or theme update throws it all off.
I feel like WordPress is chasing trends without considering the needs of long-term users. Not everyone needs a full-fledged page builder. Simplicity and stability are being sacrificed
I agree with everyone here. WordPress has been a great platform, but they need to strike a balance between innovation and stability. Otherwise, they risk alienating their core user base.
Yup. We use wordpress and wp-engine. I have zero idea how to explain this to high-ups. If these two cannot resolve their differences, the only thing we can do is leave wordpress.
@@charetjc Also, we tried doing the Azure route. It's akin to a pre-baked setup, but what you're actually doing it self-hosting it. But wow, is Azure's support for wordpress absolute crap. We spent hours on with support techs and literally never got it to work. Multiple people, multiple days. Never got it running in a way that was acceptable for a production site.
@@nocturnalbreadwinner To everyone in this chat, Jesus is calling you today. Come to him, repent from your sins, bear his cross and live the victorious life
Normies are really missing out imo. All theyve got is drama between rich idiots, meanwhile we get to enjoy drama between rich idiots that also happen to have a lot of influence over the economy
yup, so many CMS sites are produced for clients who in all likelihood are never gonna make an edit or even log in. Also probably a lot securer to just serve plain old HTML
WordPress still has some of the best visual page builders, which can be used by developers to achieve what 90% of websites could ever want. And yeah they could export the site with SimplyStatic for example, to make a static site hosted from a CDN with very little bloat. Most businesses want forms on their sites, which most static hosts have some kind of profession for. But why bother, WP is solid as a rock if you keep it all updated. And caching plugins can basically turn each page into static pages on the fly, all provided through a cdn for that speed we all crave.
Except most WP devs are developers, not pluggers, have good knowledge of ux/ui and seo, and are far superior as professionals to JS fanboys like yourself.
The reason companies have legal departments is to help stop the CEO from violating the law. Pretty sure the Automattic legal team was asleep at the wheel - or was this Mullengweg acting as the non-profit CEO, thereby potentially violating laws that specifically govern THAT space? From everything I've seen, it does not appear Mullenweg has a legal case given one requirement of trademark law is to defend the trademark and it doesn't appear he did (and that whole "we don't own WP" is really going to bite him). Of course, I'm also just now learning that the guy was involved in the WP Engine before the sale to Silver Lake, which also raises the question of whether they essentially had an implied license to the trademark and it was just never formalized. (Again, pretty sure that would negate the Mullenweg position as well.)
Matt declined a phone call from his attorney while he was on a pretty damning livestream. It seems like he just doesn't take the legal advice given to him.
Talk of ethics only becomes relevant once those in powerful and cushy positions start to get affected. Before that, ethics is either a selling point or regarded as noise.
No matter how many modern frameworks I use or how many times I change my frontend stack, I'll always be thankful to the site that enabled me to create (and host) my first website.
3:06 I'm a FLOSS guy and has been for years but NO ONE is forced to give back unless they make modifications and distribute the code (in the GPL). Donations aren't mandatory either. It's good manners to give back but you're not forced to do it. Matt just wants more money.
I think it's more about the fact that afaik wpengine is purely in it for profit, while wordpress and automattic want to uphold the value of FOSS. I'm sure that if wpengine contributed more, not even financially but towards the codebase, this would have been far less of an issue, but because they've only focused on profit and done so by taking a FOSS project and seemingly provided a worse product it's seen as sort of sullying the name of wordpress.
He is the founder. 8% feels like bare minimum for a parasite company that leeches off of him. Since trademark is his, he has right to shut them off. Legal or otherwise
@@ProtectedClassTest What the GPL _does_ say as far as I remember, is that you can charge money for your software. However, no "forces" are ever applied onto the user.
Blatant leeching should never be allowed. Yes, the software is open source but WP engine is profiting millions and contributing jackshit, that stuff is bound to piss off Matt. Especially since that leeching has been for years prior to the drama so clearly he had enough.
Unfortunately, as scummy as PE companies are, it doesn't appear that they've broken any law here. Being a cheapskate and using Open Source without contributing is not illegal.
@@veryStupidInternet The fact that such companies and what they do are legal isn't a defense, so much as a damning indictment of our political system and the money that now openly corrupts it.
@@ichijofestival2576 Actually it IS a defense. They are acting legally. Don't like it? Lobby your local congress-critter to make it a crime. Otherwise, you're just 'wishing' someone would do good for the world, which is a waste of time because these companies won't do anything they aren't legally compelled to do.
@@veryStupidInternet "Lobby your local congress-critter to make it a crime." You are right, let me open up my spare vault of a million dollar so i can lobby congress people.
@@edwardroh89 Lobbying can take many forms -- writing letters, volunteering, etc. Just because you can't do EVERYTHING doesn't mean you can't do ANYTHING. All of the previous would be better than just complaining in the TH-cam comment section!
Thanks for the summary. I've been seeing WordPress being mentioned all around but I didn't want to go search for the reasons why it was appearing so much.
I think DHH said it best tbh - "That's the deal. That's open source. I give you a gift of code, you accept the terms of the license. There cannot be a second set of shadow obligations that might suddenly apply, if you strike it rich using the software. Then the license is meaningless."
Exactly. If you don't like people taking your software without giving anything back, don't release it under a license that says, "You can take this software and not give anything back."
@@thegodofalldragons This was indeed a mistake on Matt's part. I still take his side though, but you're right a deal is a deal. I think WP engine operated legally under the license but they're shitty for not giving anything back.
@@jimbernard3289 But it wasn't a mistake for matt to license it under the og license. If he hadn't wordpress never would have climbed the ranks of popularity and neither him nor wp engine would be mega multi millionaires.
the thing is no one would ever have a desire to make open source software at that point. it's quite irrelevant what the strict legal terms say because there is a cultural contract that if you heavily profit from some tool that you have an obligation to return value to the software. there are no free lunches.
Yup. We use HUGO too. I picked it over the other static site generators because the instant turn around for the developer to see their changes. That is, the developer does not need to wait for a build to see their changes.
So who is really controlling these f*king three companies as they have the highest equity shares of each other. It seems like the whole word is running like a chain by a system a basterd created to f*kup the world.
I’m in the side of the Wordpress founder… you have to understand someone creates an open source project with the thought of that other developers will use it and contribute to it but if you using my code and making billions off my name and my project you either have to contribute to it since you have the resources to do so or pay a fee to use our software. We don’t have to build software for anyone to become rich off our backs a lot of people see this like you do this for the love but you can’t just become rich someone else’s code and then donate $2 for a coffee. Open source projects should be available to everyone but once you hit a threshold you need to payback to the people creating the code. You can’t expect me or anyone to work free that’s crazy it’s literally we wouldn’t ask for anyone in any industry to do this… again support your open source projects.
Thoughts are great, but does the GNU license require WP Engine to contribute x hours or dollars to the open source base? I don't think so, and then Automattic has no claim at all. He should have thought of that before, when he permitted WP Engine to use WP under GNU.
The freedom resulting from getting something by abiding only the written agreement is more important to me than maintaining fairness in open source programs. The problem of somebody taking open software and making entire business out of it it is at least a decade old. Nothing prevented WordPress from changing the license long fucking time ago.
@ahmedshebani8452 they're probably RedHat or Suse Enterprise Linux servers which again are in an Enterprise space. RedHat and Suse pay lots of money to the Linux Foundation and hire open source kernel maintainers because it is a SYMBIOTIC relationship.
I agree with Matt's sentiment, private companies often become leeches on open-source projects. But I completely disagree with his approach, its doing more harm to Wordpress and open-source than good.
Matt also owns a private company. Just because he put WP itself out into open source doesn't make the company itself public. And his hosting company is private. This is two private companies going after each other. Matt is just playing the political game by talking about open source which many other commenters have pointed out the hypocrisy in how much other open source he relies on
@@JosephMcMurray1984 That's why I said I don't agree with his approach. In open source, contributing back is a moral obligation not a legal one, so you can't force someone to do it, especially not when you were initially okay with them not contributing.
I don't understand this attitude. If you release something under the GPL, you are explicitly granting companies permission to do exactly what WP Engine did. They're not "leeches". They are following the license. If you don't want that, don't release code under the GPL. Release it under a proprietary license. Also, I don't think companies that use open-source software have any obligation to contribute back, moral or otherwise. People choose the GPL to guarantee the freedom of end-users, not to force contributions back.
Shouldn't have ever published Wordpress as GPL if you're pissed someone's using it without contributing to the project. IMO Vercel's approach to commercializing an open source project like Next.js is a much smarter one and something wordpress needed to migrate to way back then if he wanted to make money out of it.
@@Axiasart Because the creator also makes money hosting the service, just like Vercel. But Vercel makes the project better for their own hosting, if someone wants better service for self hosting, they need to contribute, and that's the problem with Wordpress by the creator's claims. (That's my understanding of it)
As somebody who has used WordPress for years, but as a retired sys admin runs his own LAMP stack on AWS-EC2, I'm very concerned. My biggest concern is that penis-length contests like this will degrade operational security by causing loss of focus, loss of critical employees, and just needless general chaos. Can we all just not be forced to be co-dependents of those that fiend over money like crackheads? Sadly WordPress is not something you can cook up like if you were Linus Torvalds. Excellent report, thank you!
WordPress itself is very simple. In fact plenty developers could build something better given that the core team absolutely REFUSES to update the architecture and abide by PHP industry standards. The real problem isn't core, but the million 3rd party plugins and themes that get stacked on top. It's that ecosystem that would take a very long time to replicate without major profit incentive to those devs.
I can’t really like anyone in this conflict. One is private equity and the other spat his dummy out and impacted customers and users of Wordpress as a move.
I mean, yea, but most people using Wordpress are non-technical. If you know HTML feel free to use that instead. Would you rather everyone use Wix and Squarespace to release websites lol
@@honkhonk8009 weel then go and do it on google slides and then converted into a png or pdf and just put that into an HTML xd stop the cap. you are just lazy
"Capitalism bad" aside, I think it's becoming a bit too common for open-source products to suddenly decide companies are supposed to pay for the product they specifically said was free for everyone to use Like seriously, if you don't want people to use your software without giving back then don't release it under a license that states they can do exactly that
Big difference. I've been confused about wordpress's origins for a while now. This ruffling of feathers has made it appearent to me. As a fan of wordpress, its founders and loyal contributors its great to see them distance themselves. All wpengine had to do was to make it sufficiently clear that they were distinct. The immaturity shown comes from the idiots in wpengine, who thought that being a parasite is moral. Be distinct wpengine, you are free to do that. Why must you try to be wordpress and grow like a cancer. Once you shadow wp ypu kill all those who contributed, the project dies like the host with cancer.
It seems likely that Matt's organization is having some kind of financial crisis. That explains BOTH the licensing extortion, AND the finding of an excuse to lay off employees.
Hot take: if freeloading is a problem you should be releasing proprietary software with hefty royalties and license fees attached. The *entire point* of the GPL is that freedom is more important than freeloading.
They can duke it out as much as they want in court. They've got the beef (or at least Matt does). Just not sure of Matt's thought process in attempting to deliberately sabotage my ability to maintain sites on WP Engine. My only crime was choosing to host for clients on a platform that didn't agree to follow Matt's arbitrary set of rules (that would only apply to them).
I don’t care what anyone says, WP is a blogging CMS. It’s not a website builder. Out of the box, vanilla WP wants you to create a blog page. The community saw the value of a CMS and started developing plugins and extensions to force WP to be a website builder. In today’s CMS market (many aimed at native website building), I don’t know why people still use WP. I’d rather build a site from scratch using Next.js than force a blogging platform to act like a website. Not to mention, you can always tell when you’re on a site that was built in WP.
A pretty popular use case for Next.js is to have a Wordpress backend, because the actual value of WP is it's versatility as a CMS. In it's core is a blogging system, but has grown quite a bit from there and you can deliver content of pretty much any nature. Of course it is meant to be something that speeds up processes and for that it's going to be a bit blotted, nobody will try to argue in favor of using it in some state of the art tech, but for most sites it brings a lot to the table. You can tell sites are made with material UI quite quickly, or with bootstrap, or with shopify, etc. It's only natural that you can tell a site is made with Wordpress because half the sites in the world are made with it, and also... people often are not focused in making things different, they want it to work. A site is medium for a set of objectives, not the objective by itself.
Every time I see someone complain about Wordpress and then bang on about building their sites from scratch with Next.js (or whatever the new shiny js thing is) means they totally miss the point of the CMS part of Wordpress which is the main reason it’s so popular..you can give clients the ability to edit and manage their own content..it also makes it easy for agencies to update content on the fly…(which is huge if you’re running hundreds of sites)…yes, you could hook up a headless cms but why would you spend all that time when it’s there out of the box?…now, is Wordpress a good CMS…hell no! It’s not even in the same league as the likes of craft, Drupal etc etc..but it’s simplicity is why it’s so popular and it can be extended via its plugin architecture (which is a blessing and a curse)…as bad and clunky as it is there’s nothing else even remotely like it out there…(FOR FREE) which is quite baffling in this day and age…and btw Im not a fan of it, but I can totally understand it’s popularity
@@nicolaslandgraf7317 And don’t forget to mention all the restrictions that come with using a CMS in the first place. Add the fact that WP’s CMS was developed specifically for blogging, I’m sure any developer who has even an ounce of creativity or a client who wants something out of the norm would quickly run into the limitations and roadblocks of using WP for site development. Plus, any respectable developer will have an established toolbox that can do what many of the bloated WP plugins can do, and probably better. Just my 2 cents.
@@ragtop63 I don't really get the idea of critizing Wordpress based on it's plugins, they are made by other people, and you can make them too. Some are garbage, some are pretty amazing. Wordpress it's a tool, meant to be an standarized solution that works for people with or without technical knowledge. What I can tell you is, if you think it limits you in any way, you don't know enough of it, because it really doesn't... which doesn't mean you have to use it for everything or even depend on it, or that is perfect in any way. I don't know, I find it weird to slander a tool that powers half the websites on the internet since forever.
This is fascinating, and this video was excellent. The only observation I have is that an open stock company, publicly traded, is a thousand times better than a private equity firm, and both are pretty bad. Both of them our models for extracting capital from other people's labor, and we see that on full display in this fight. Brilliant video, keep doing what you do.
What would be a good open source license to exclude companies like WP Engine that are basically just reselling someone else's work for a profit? I know of AGPL which makes it harder for these companies to adopt. Anything else?
There is no way to introduce such a restriction under an OSI-compliant license, since it by definition restricts the freedom of users (regardless of whether we like those users and their use). AGPL was designed to stop another (ab)use case, namely a company taking FLOSS code, hacking it up locally, running it themselves, and then never publishing the changes or contributing them upstream, because they didn't 'distribute' under terms of GPL and so weren't bound to also distribute source code. The recent attempt to introduce a source-available license that prohibits freeloaders like cloud providers from just taking the code and selling it as a service while contributing nothing back is called the BSL (and various other names) and is being used by Sentry, various DBs and so on. It is *not*, however, considered open source by the OSI or anyone in the FLOSS community. Personally, I consider it acceptable and a positive development. Unless you're a maximalist, like RMS/OSI/GNU/etc, a license that preserves all the freedoms of open source *except* undermining the ability of the original authors/maintainers to fund development by offering their code as a service commercially in direct competition and without recompense, and thereby enables a number of important, large projects to keep going and outcompeting proprietary alternatives, ought to make a great deal of sense. It is not an option for Wordpress because the copyright to code contributions belongs to contributors and Mullenweg can't just relicense it (nor, it would appear, does he want to, since the point he's making is that users like WPEngine need to contribute voluntarily to make big open source projects viable).
By definition open source licenses must allow for commercial use. Freedom means freedom, end of story. No exceptions. If you don't like freedom, then you shouldn't use an open source license.
@@SchemingGoldberg Open source software and free software can be two separate things, depending on which definition you follow. Turns out, Stallman was probably right from the beginning.
If I was a wordpress theme or plugin dev, I'd probably switch to something like webflow. It's fast growing and offers the same business model. Create themes and apps, plug them into the ecosystem, and earn income.
@03:36 - The AI LLM models all used open-source code from every "public" code-base... so in that situation I agree with Matt - These VC firms fund and take from open-source when it suits them - but give very little back to the source. (funds, percentage of revenue, developer contributions, etc)
I used to be a big WordPress user but eventually switched to a static site generator. Much less work, far more secure and faster. As the video mentioned, the only loser are the users.
SilverLake might not have the moral high ground, but they certainly have the legal one. Last time I saw a CEO melt down and fuck up so badly in public, doubling, then tripling down on it was when some guy bought Twitter.
Bottom line: Nobody forced you to make an open source product. There is a mountain of legal work to protect proprietary products from this sort of competition. You chose not to utilize basic business protections. You chose to publish the most important part of your business for the world to see. So what if you want to monetize it. So what if someone is better at monetizing it than you. Have you not heard of second mover advantage? The only one at fault for not knowing how economy works is Wordpress. You had better be darn sure you can take on the competition _before_ open sourcing. Competition is a constant.
Not a bluff, he paid up for everyone. Wordpress has a mission and he's completely understanding of people who don't see themselves aligned with that mission. Open Source projects die when stuff like this happens, and WP is simply too big to risk that.
Honestly, if we get more and more bots chugging out ai-generated content faster and faster, the internet will become that much more unbearable and useless
Because WordPress has this policy that if you are not buying WordPress paid support then it should be as difficult as possible to use their product. This is a total invite for third parties to step in. And as Automattic themselves sold their share of WP engine to Silverlake I have ZERO sympathy.
@@thepottmi but the trademark seems to be used to try to achieve the same results. Because of this, right now I think it would be better if it was closed source. The same I think about all AGPL software too.
One interesting thing that was mentioned in one of the Primeagen videos was that if Automatic wins the case they could theoretically go for others who use the WP name so others might be in danger as well.
Nope. Automattic case lies on wordpress trademark within hosting context. Bluehost also paid license to provide wordpress hosting and woocommerce hosting. While others like Hostinger and GoDaddy avoid using the name and instead offer cpanel-based wp hosting.
WordPress is hot garbage so I don't know why I'd be on either side of this dispute. The one thing I'm sure of though, is that nothing makes me NOT want to do business with an organization more than its top management throwing a public tantrum like a child in a grocery store who didn't get the sugary cereal they wanted.
I bet that WP is going to lose 6-11% of its web presence in the next 10 years because of this drama. And objectively speaking, this percentage was not at risk before this drama. The loss would come from technically skilled users, who had no issues with the software, but are now disappointed.
I my opinion technical skilled users wouldnt use wordpress in the beginning... Seriously, i dont think that most 'developers' / agencies hacking together wordpress sites care at all (as far as they dont use wpengine) about bis drama.
Someone must be the visionary behind any product. WordPress has Matt behind it. There are other content management systems available, but most of them aren't as popular - and for good reason. Ultimately, for any company that wants to remain on WordPress but refuses to accept the license agreement for the current version there are two options: 1) Remain on an older version that is governed by a different license agreement. This isn't a good option since bugs won't be fixed and updated plugins and themes won't run on the old code base. 2) Move your website to a different platform and live with the limitations (and let's face reality, websites are built on WordPress for a reason).
Thanks God I never followed my lazy high school teacher path of being a "no coding wordpress web developer", and instead follow With Code React Web Developer path.
The idea that WordPress being open-source makes Automattic the "good guy" doesn't hold up, especially since one person (Matt) could tank the whole project if he wanted to. What really matters is the ecosystem-the plugins and everything around it. No one could just fork WordPress tomorrow and make it successful. In this context, the fact that it's open-source is pretty much irrelevant.
I have refused to host many WordPress sites in the past. As a developer working in the government (a government, not your government) when asked to do WordPress have basically said "no its too insecure, we cannot use it to host a government agencies website."
TH-cam is blocking me from liking comments I agree with here: I think DHH said it best tbh - "That's the deal. That's open source. I give you a gift of code, you accept the terms of the license. There cannot be a second set of shadow obligations that might suddenly apply, if you strike it rich using the software. Then the license is meaningless." It is either open source or it isn't. If people make money from something you released for free BE GRATEFUL. The money they made feeds families and creates and drives more business. Mullenweg making billions and people are mad at WP Engine for making millions.
One can do whatever they want with open source within the parameters of the license... that's the point of open source. Giving back is encouraged, not required, and an argument can be made that creating a company around an open source-based product that fills a niche and generates value for customers is in itself indirectly giving back. If the product didn't add value, people wouldn't buy it and would instead keep using the free version or use another product. It sucks that private equity benefits in the end, but if that cost outweighs the benefits then customers can find another product or project, or create their own. Matt deciding to weaponize the non-profit arm of WordPress to broadcast his position and force users to pick a side is puzzling at best. If the case goes to court (doesn't settle outside of court) then the justice system will decide whether Matt's actions were unlawful. We shall see.
Regardless of whether WP Engine is PE backed or not, mullenwag is a megalomaniac who in my opinion would have done the same thing regardless as to whether WP engine was contributing all its time to WP time. Also, at least according to WP Engine’s claims, it gives a reasonable amount of money to sponsoring WP events, so it’s not “nothing”. If Mullenwag didn’t want WP to actually be open source, he wouldn’t have made it open source. Then he could have done what he liked.
The whole thing gives "how dare you not giving money to my foundation" vibes. They are also using countless FOSS projects in their infrastructure. Should they contribute to all of them? If each one of them would get 8%, I would guess that it would add up to over 100%, so it's impossible. Maybe split this 8% between them? It would be impossible to split this by "how much we use them", as it is impossible to measure. If it was even for everyone, WordPress would be left with almost nothing. To top that off, many of those foundations have serious issues with how they are spending their money, including really weird political activism. And even if I wouldn't mind contributing to the software they represent, I specifically wouldn't want to give them any money.
If you want your software to be freely shared and used, and release it as open source, you can't then change your mind when someone does that and then demand a ransom. Don't release it as open source if you don't want people to use it as such.
That's ridiculous. The entire point of open source is that anybody (yes ANYBODY) can use it for any purpose, including commercial purposes. If you don't like that... just don't use an open source license. It's the fault of Matt for choosing to use an open source license.
This is just a case study of the limitations of the GPL, and similar licenses. The GPL is great for software that needs to be distributed, not so great for software that is interacted with over the network. And the AGPL only partially addresses that - if all you do is host the software, and provide closed-source plugins, it could be hard to argue that you're producing a combined work. Needing the agreement of every contributor to switch licenses is good because it guarantees to contributors that their contributions will be protected by copyleft, but also means that WordPress can't simply change the license now (except in ways the GPL has provisions for).
0:58 It's on October 11, 2024 or Rabi' al-Akhir 8, 1446 AH and you're watching Fireship Videos about WordPress Ecosystem W4r on the Code Report Series.
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The wayback machine is under attack, and wordpress is practically imploding.... what a time.
I just hope they don’t lose data
I believe internet archive are behind their own “hack”. They lost a suit and been in constant battle with the gov so this would send a message how much IA is needed.
JUst the usual recession period. Gonna get much worse before it gets better.
Don’t forget Godot self sabotaging its chance to grab the entire Unity user base like apples from a tree.
Yeah, I never thought that I will live to see such event happen
IMHO reselling an open source product and then not fairly contributing back is fucked up and i won't be sad of their venture burns to the ground. On the other hand Mr. Mullenweg should have been talking to a lawyer and a PR consultant because he's making himself look like a child despite having a valid point.
Edit: Please also understand that there is a world of difference between using an open source project as one of many subcomponents for a novel product or system you put a lot of time and effort into building yourself and then selling that, and what WP Engine is doing; outright taking an open source project as your sole selling point, making tens of millions, and keeping it all to yourself. I don't think that "providing hosting services" is transformative or novel in the slightest.
Edit edit: Not using donated communal effort for self enrichment IS a moral requirement to me and i will die on that hill. Matt has gone insane but that does not excuse what WP Engine is doing either.
Edit edit edit: Special request for MarkEm
Let me introduce you to the BSD, MIT and Apache licences...
Copyleft is for commies (sorta). Forced redistribution.
💯
Just consuming without contributing is very egoistic. Regardless of what the licenses say, this is simply dishonorable!
The morality is irrelevant to the legality of the situation. The licence said anyone can copy change and proffit off the code, so long as it's still using a gpl3 license. If you want people to be forced to contribute, use a non-commercial license
I completely agree. I think he is definitely on the right and what he is standing for is definitely a go but the way it has been handled gonna probably bite him in the ***.
sorry bucko. open source means open source.
They fact that check box had a class lawsuit 💀💀
would have been funnier if it was ``
@@wchorski yooo lmao
@@wchorski😂😂😂😂 instant lawsuit
That's very classy
@@wchorski No it wouldn't because they wouldn't be filing a class action lawsuit.
I'll be honest. I always thought WP Engine was affiliated with WordPress, so the anger from WordPress about confusion isn't misplaced...IMO.
Yep, i would call it deceptive marketing practices so im in agreement with him.
@@crypnosis9871 No there is nothing deceptive about it. Many WordPress related software and services use "WP" in their brand. It's an easy way to let people know that you offer WordPress related software or services, which DOES NOT infringe upon the WordPress trademark.
Such businesses also, by necessity have to refer to WordPress in some way, otherwise know one would know their product/service is useful for WordPress.
I, as a long time WordPress user have never confused any such service as being officially affiliated with WordPress.
Furthermore if anyone is confused by that, it's not the fault of the entity using "WP" in their brand.
Yes, I was previously under this impression too. It’s very unusual to have a company name with another trademark abbreviation in it but unaffiliated in practice.
no it is misplaced... we should all be mad at YOU!
there are numerous self-hosted open source products with companies dedicated to providing services around them and uses some associative naming.... is reading the skill issue?
First wordpress versions were so confusing to me as kid that I found it easier to start making websites myself and still going strong lol
Same, I was a 20 year old tasked with making a website for my church, learned a ton and part of it was realizing straight-up html was faster and easier.
same. wordpress started as plogging system and this is all it is. all those plugins and nonsense is just confusing. i used to make websites around 2010 til like 2018, i used other systems, such as e107, phpbb, opencart ..etc, but wordpress was horrible.
some customers asked for it and it was nightmare to make, they later complained that this doesn't work and that's wrong ..etc, but i just said "nope, not my problem, i told you it's a bad idea".
some of them even got "hacked" due known vulnerabilities, i just refused to deal with them.
i checked some of those websites years later and guess what? doesn't look like wordpress anymore, guess they finally realized how bad it was.
You know the internet is burning when Fireship uploads faster than I can deploy my Supabase project...
Never side with private equity firms. They'll make your life miserable as their employee or their customer, they'll stab you in the back and fire you the minute they think it will be profitable (which will probably be seconds after they acquire the company you work for).
This doesn't take from the point that you might not want to side with Automattic either. That's valid too.
Automattic is also backed by Private Equity though.
Runescape was bought by one of these and they immediately forced in LGBT pride events. Prior to this every single update was polled and needed 75%+ of player votes to get added to the game.
@@Kinnr_ That's horrible! Not having ever been laid, Runescape players still fear cooties, it's too much for their mental health to introduce the idea of homosexual relationships!
@@TheUncannyObserver Even if we don't have a problem with LGBT and even if we support it, let's not pretend like this isn't just a company trying to make profit and will turn it's back on the idea should it not be profitable, It's a very bad foundation and I wouldn't really be making much comments considering how the opperate
@@TheUncannyObserverWonder how you'd fare with straight pride events
I'd love to hear stories of private equities actually having a net positive effect to a community.
Lol
They exist but you won't hear about them in the news. The main issues are bad bets on whom PE invests in, or investing in companies that depend on exploiting the end user for their business model.
@@SlimShady-gs8pl tell me where to learn about them.
@@SlimShady-gs8pl and yet you named no examples; the degredation of open source software by private interests who soley care about money demands free-loading at some point. Matt may be playing some of his cards wrong, but I think protecting the meaning of FOSS is more important
@@SlimShady-gs8plso it should be easy to find a single example. Right?
It does feel like the WordPress ecosystem is getting more chaotic, especially with the constant updates and plugin conflicts. It's hard to keep track of what works and what breaks.
Agreed. They’re focusing too much on the block editor (Gutenberg) and neglecting other aspects. Many users didn’t even ask for half the changes they're rolling out.
It's not just the core WordPress changes. The plugin developers are all over the place too. Some updates fix bugs, while others introduce more issues. I think WordPress needs to set clearer guidelines for plugin development.
It’s also frustrating that themes are constantly affected by these updates. You build a site, everything works fine, and then a WordPress or theme update throws it all off.
I feel like WordPress is chasing trends without considering the needs of long-term users. Not everyone needs a full-fledged page builder. Simplicity and stability are being sacrificed
I agree with everyone here. WordPress has been a great platform, but they need to strike a balance between innovation and stability. Otherwise, they risk alienating their core user base.
Sadly, it seems the average user is getting caught in the crossfire of this corporate feud.
Yup. We use wordpress and wp-engine. I have zero idea how to explain this to high-ups. If these two cannot resolve their differences, the only thing we can do is leave wordpress.
@@SixOThree Self hosting isn't an option?
@@charetjc That's the good thing. We could export the site and move it elsewhere. But everyone has other stuff to work on.
@@charetjc Also, we tried doing the Azure route. It's akin to a pre-baked setup, but what you're actually doing it self-hosting it. But wow, is Azure's support for wordpress absolute crap. We spent hours on with support techs and literally never got it to work. Multiple people, multiple days. Never got it running in a way that was acceptable for a production site.
@@SixOThree if you have other stuff to work on, leaving wordpress for another system will be much more time consuming, than just self hosting.
Primeagen and Theo's drawings ....(Chef's kiss)
Absolute cinema
I spat my drink when I saw these
That's art
spitting images
I can't believe Richard Hendricks would do this
I thought I was alone, dude looks like Hendricks so much
that's why people save his number as bitchard.
@@nocturnalbreadwinner
To everyone in this chat, Jesus is calling you today. Come to him, repent from your sins, bear his cross and live the victorious life
No... this is the ending that the show should have had. Richard Hendricks would totally do this to us
Imagine how big WP would be if they implemented middle-out compression.
Matt vs WP Engine is crazier than Drake vs Kendrick beef
new Dev drama just dropped
Nerd fight!
Normies are really missing out imo. All theyve got is drama between rich idiots, meanwhile we get to enjoy drama between rich idiots that also happen to have a lot of influence over the economy
and more interesting imho
Gnark vs Blorf is crazier than Dingus vs Mugg
I support Matt. Private equity freeloads on open software and pays nothing.
He built it
I bet 90% of Wordpress sites should just be static sites served from a cdn
I did used wp once...and it was an almost static website 😆
Mine 100% is, unfortunately I lack the skill to set it up other than WordPress.
yup, so many CMS sites are produced for clients who in all likelihood are never gonna make an edit or even log in. Also probably a lot securer to just serve plain old HTML
WordPress still has some of the best visual page builders, which can be used by developers to achieve what 90% of websites could ever want. And yeah they could export the site with SimplyStatic for example, to make a static site hosted from a CDN with very little bloat. Most businesses want forms on their sites, which most static hosts have some kind of profession for. But why bother, WP is solid as a rock if you keep it all updated. And caching plugins can basically turn each page into static pages on the fly, all provided through a cdn for that speed we all crave.
@@keaton718wp is solid as a rock 😭
fight all you want between yourselves, but rule number one, don't let it affect users. Without them you are fighting over nothing
Bro... Even we; the users; do not need them... I'll just run an AWS free instance for a year and leave my WP site there...
@@prometheus6001wordpress is nothing without its maintainers.
while users are a vital part of any service or product, they should not dictate actions that go against ethical or moral standards.
I doubt that either side cares about the lowly end-user.
@@mumbojumbotrallalaethics and morals are subjective, which is why code is regulated based on licensing and not the whims of anyone's feelings.
It’s better to be an html developer than Wordpress plugger
It feels better to me too but objectively depends
It's better to be an AI prompter
Is better to be rich, just do both, normie.
Except most WP devs are developers, not pluggers, have good knowledge of ux/ui and seo, and are far superior as professionals to JS fanboys like yourself.
lmao facts. I feel like flexbox/grid, and some other basic CSS, could achieve the same ux/ui for over 90% of WP sites.
The reason companies have legal departments is to help stop the CEO from violating the law. Pretty sure the Automattic legal team was asleep at the wheel - or was this Mullengweg acting as the non-profit CEO, thereby potentially violating laws that specifically govern THAT space? From everything I've seen, it does not appear Mullenweg has a legal case given one requirement of trademark law is to defend the trademark and it doesn't appear he did (and that whole "we don't own WP" is really going to bite him). Of course, I'm also just now learning that the guy was involved in the WP Engine before the sale to Silver Lake, which also raises the question of whether they essentially had an implied license to the trademark and it was just never formalized. (Again, pretty sure that would negate the Mullenweg position as well.)
Matt Mullenweg seems to have simply stopped caring what his lawyers say to him.
Matt declined a phone call from his attorney while he was on a pretty damning livestream. It seems like he just doesn't take the legal advice given to him.
STOP! You've violated the law, pay the court a fine...
2:34 tells me exactly who I should be rooting for
The topic of "Ethics and foundations of what we call open source" has been facing a lot of controversy lately and I love it
Talk of ethics only becomes relevant once those in powerful and cushy positions start to get affected. Before that, ethics is either a selling point or regarded as noise.
No matter how many modern frameworks I use or how many times I change my frontend stack, I'll always be thankful to the site that enabled me to create (and host) my first website.
Geocities?
low iq shit
Myspace?
@Dryblack1 that was a social media platform. Not a site hosting platform.
Microsoft word and any computer that is connected to the internet?
3:06 I'm a FLOSS guy and has been for years but NO ONE is forced to give back unless they make modifications and distribute the code (in the GPL). Donations aren't mandatory either. It's good manners to give back but you're not forced to do it. Matt just wants more money.
I think it's more about the fact that afaik wpengine is purely in it for profit, while wordpress and automattic want to uphold the value of FOSS. I'm sure that if wpengine contributed more, not even financially but towards the codebase, this would have been far less of an issue, but because they've only focused on profit and done so by taking a FOSS project and seemingly provided a worse product it's seen as sort of sullying the name of wordpress.
Are donations part of the GPL license? I havent heard of that till now.
He is the founder. 8% feels like bare minimum for a parasite company that leeches off of him. Since trademark is his, he has right to shut them off. Legal or otherwise
@@ProtectedClassTest What the GPL _does_ say as far as I remember, is that you can charge money for your software. However, no "forces" are ever applied onto the user.
Blatant leeching should never be allowed. Yes, the software is open source but WP engine is profiting millions and contributing jackshit, that stuff is bound to piss off Matt. Especially since that leeching has been for years prior to the drama so clearly he had enough.
Yes, private equity is cancer of the highest order. That's all I have to say on this matter.
Unfortunately, as scummy as PE companies are, it doesn't appear that they've broken any law here. Being a cheapskate and using Open Source without contributing is not illegal.
@@veryStupidInternet The fact that such companies and what they do are legal isn't a defense, so much as a damning indictment of our political system and the money that now openly corrupts it.
@@ichijofestival2576 Actually it IS a defense. They are acting legally. Don't like it? Lobby your local congress-critter to make it a crime. Otherwise, you're just 'wishing' someone would do good for the world, which is a waste of time because these companies won't do anything they aren't legally compelled to do.
@@veryStupidInternet "Lobby your local congress-critter to make it a crime." You are right, let me open up my spare vault of a million dollar so i can lobby congress people.
@@edwardroh89 Lobbying can take many forms -- writing letters, volunteering, etc. Just because you can't do EVERYTHING doesn't mean you can't do ANYTHING. All of the previous would be better than just complaining in the TH-cam comment section!
You know is bad when Fireship has to change the thumbnail three times.
Thanks for the summary. I've been seeing WordPress being mentioned all around but I didn't want to go search for the reasons why it was appearing so much.
I think DHH said it best tbh - "That's the deal. That's open source. I give you a gift of code, you accept the terms of the license. There cannot be a second set of shadow obligations that might suddenly apply, if you strike it rich using the software. Then the license is meaningless."
Exactly. If you don't like people taking your software without giving anything back, don't release it under a license that says, "You can take this software and not give anything back."
Not to mention that he also got rich with Wordpress, so it’s not like he’s a poor maintainer that is barely making enough money to live.
@@thegodofalldragons This was indeed a mistake on Matt's part. I still take his side though, but you're right a deal is a deal. I think WP engine operated legally under the license but they're shitty for not giving anything back.
@@jimbernard3289 But it wasn't a mistake for matt to license it under the og license. If he hadn't wordpress never would have climbed the ranks of popularity and neither him nor wp engine would be mega multi millionaires.
the thing is no one would ever have a desire to make open source software at that point. it's quite irrelevant what the strict legal terms say because there is a cultural contract that if you heavily profit from some tool that you have an obligation to return value to the software. there are no free lunches.
pls cover the fandom/wiki drama next !!
What drama?
Fireship is now a drama channel
@@LuisSierra42
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Turn to him and repent from your sins today!
Yes
yeah, what drama?
Seeing all this drama just made me *so dang grateful* that I learned Hugo from you in 100 seconds.
Yup. We use HUGO too. I picked it over the other static site generators because the instant turn around for the developer to see their changes. That is, the developer does not need to wait for a build to see their changes.
The whole equity issue is ridiculous because Automattic is funded by Blackrock
Who isn't?
So who is really controlling these f*king three companies as they have the highest equity shares of each other. It seems like the whole word is running like a chain by a system a basterd created to f*kup the world.
I’m in the side of the Wordpress founder… you have to understand someone creates an open source project with the thought of that other developers will use it and contribute to it but if you using my code and making billions off my name and my project you either have to contribute to it since you have the resources to do so or pay a fee to use our software. We don’t have to build software for anyone to become rich off our backs a lot of people see this like you do this for the love but you can’t just become rich someone else’s code and then donate $2 for a coffee. Open source projects should be available to everyone but once you hit a threshold you need to payback to the people creating the code. You can’t expect me or anyone to work free that’s crazy it’s literally we wouldn’t ask for anyone in any industry to do this… again support your open source projects.
Thoughts are great, but does the GNU license require WP Engine to contribute x hours or dollars to the open source base? I don't think so, and then Automattic has no claim at all. He should have thought of that before, when he permitted WP Engine to use WP under GNU.
The freedom resulting from getting something by abiding only the written agreement is more important to me than maintaining fairness in open source programs.
The problem of somebody taking open software and making entire business out of it it is at least a decade old. Nothing prevented WordPress from changing the license long fucking time ago.
My company servers run on linux, do we have to pay Linus Torvalds a monthly salary?
@@ahmedshebani8452 if your entire business is made of running bare-bone Linux kernel then yes.
@ahmedshebani8452 they're probably RedHat or Suse Enterprise Linux servers which again are in an Enterprise space. RedHat and Suse pay lots of money to the Linux Foundation and hire open source kernel maintainers because it is a SYMBIOTIC relationship.
I agree with Matt's sentiment, private companies often become leeches on open-source projects. But I completely disagree with his approach, its doing more harm to Wordpress and open-source than good.
If Matt isn't contributing to PHP, Linux and the many other open source tools he profits off of, then he is no different.
Matt also owns a private company. Just because he put WP itself out into open source doesn't make the company itself public. And his hosting company is private. This is two private companies going after each other. Matt is just playing the political game by talking about open source which many other commenters have pointed out the hypocrisy in how much other open source he relies on
@@JosephMcMurray1984 That's why I said I don't agree with his approach. In open source, contributing back is a moral obligation not a legal one, so you can't force someone to do it, especially not when you were initially okay with them not contributing.
@@Jabberwockybird Yes it's very shady and people are rightfully bashing him for it.
I don't understand this attitude. If you release something under the GPL, you are explicitly granting companies permission to do exactly what WP Engine did. They're not "leeches". They are following the license.
If you don't want that, don't release code under the GPL. Release it under a proprietary license.
Also, I don't think companies that use open-source software have any obligation to contribute back, moral or otherwise. People choose the GPL to guarantee the freedom of end-users, not to force contributions back.
5:47 Did you draw that @Fireship? Its very good
he used a wordpress plugin to generate it
Shouldn't have ever published Wordpress as GPL if you're pissed someone's using it without contributing to the project. IMO Vercel's approach to commercializing an open source project like Next.js is a much smarter one and something wordpress needed to migrate to way back then if he wanted to make money out of it.
tbh that's something I don't understand, how is Wordpress open source if they are going to act against companies making money from it?
@@Axiasart Because the creator also makes money hosting the service, just like Vercel. But Vercel makes the project better for their own hosting, if someone wants better service for self hosting, they need to contribute, and that's the problem with Wordpress by the creator's claims. (That's my understanding of it)
The good thing to do is to burry wordpress once for all
Wordpress is a fork of b2/cafelog and that’s the reason it is gpl
Not contributing just one small part of it. The bigger part is the WP trademark in which Matt later added and asking wpengine to pay for license.
Matt is great. He took time to talk to me and advise me out of his insane schedule. He was/is super nice about everything.
Good coverage of the complex topic. Thank you!
5:10 i know this is stock footage but my god the elbow patches....
He bought the shirt from a programming clothing store 😂
I had a habit of putting elbow on table while typing, almost all of my shirta have holes in the elbow.. patch is better than holes
As somebody who has used WordPress for years, but as a retired sys admin runs his own LAMP stack on AWS-EC2, I'm very concerned. My biggest concern is that penis-length contests like this will degrade operational security by causing loss of focus, loss of critical employees, and just needless general chaos. Can we all just not be forced to be co-dependents of those that fiend over money like crackheads?
Sadly WordPress is not something you can cook up like if you were Linus Torvalds. Excellent report, thank you!
WordPress itself is very simple. In fact plenty developers could build something better given that the core team absolutely REFUSES to update the architecture and abide by PHP industry standards. The real problem isn't core, but the million 3rd party plugins and themes that get stacked on top. It's that ecosystem that would take a very long time to replicate without major profit incentive to those devs.
5:44 this primeagen wojak hits so hard xD
Best thing of the video 😂
I can’t really like anyone in this conflict. One is private equity and the other spat his dummy out and impacted customers and users of Wordpress as a move.
Both sides are private equity and one is also stupid
Glad to see you clarify whats going on, good job!
This is what we get for abandoning our first love, LiveJournal.
Live Journal is still around, but I think it's owned by a Russian company. Not really sure, though. It's changed hands so many times.
Geocities anyone?
More like Movable Type, Movable Type killing off their free version is what led to the rise of WordPress in the first place.
my first love (and probably yours) is html and her sister, css
@@bmanpuraThere's a spiritual successor that exists called NeoCities.
Truth is 99% of the websites running wordpress dont need wordpress
I mean, yea, but most people using Wordpress are non-technical. If you know HTML feel free to use that instead. Would you rather everyone use Wix and Squarespace to release websites lol
@@guerra_dos_bichos what do they need?
Honestly im a dev and I hate frontend shit.
I just wanna make a website the same way you would design stuff on google slides.
what does that even mean
@@honkhonk8009 weel then go and do it on google slides and then converted into a png or pdf and just put that into an HTML xd stop the cap. you are just lazy
The pronunciation of 'simulacra' was MUAH! chef's kiss.
such a weird word to use in that context too, like i'm PRETTY sure he could have said "facsimile" or some shit
"Capitalism bad" aside, I think it's becoming a bit too common for open-source products to suddenly decide companies are supposed to pay for the product they specifically said was free for everyone to use
Like seriously, if you don't want people to use your software without giving back then don't release it under a license that states they can do exactly that
Stop sucking on the boot so much.
this
if they want to enforce things, put them in the license
@@user-xl5kd6il6c they should have those licenses of free till first million revenue or something like that.
AGPL would be good. But in this case it's not even needed because WPe did nothing morally wrong. They do contribute back.
Big difference. I've been confused about wordpress's origins for a while now. This ruffling of feathers has made it appearent to me. As a fan of wordpress, its founders and loyal contributors its great to see them distance themselves. All wpengine had to do was to make it sufficiently clear that they were distinct.
The immaturity shown comes from the idiots in wpengine, who thought that being a parasite is moral. Be distinct wpengine, you are free to do that. Why must you try to be wordpress and grow like a cancer. Once you shadow wp ypu kill all those who contributed, the project dies like the host with cancer.
That Primeagen picture @5:46 is epic.
6:36 The fact that you mentioned the CSS class name for that checkbox is killing me 😂😂
Why? Not everyone studies Java or HTML
@@DamnThatsFunny308what about Java?
@@celebraces2 ithink he forgot to add Script...😁😁
We got official Primagen and Theo mention in Fireship video before GTA 6
It seems likely that Matt's organization is having some kind of financial crisis.
That explains BOTH the licensing extortion, AND the finding of an excuse to lay off employees.
Hot take: if freeloading is a problem you should be releasing proprietary software with hefty royalties and license fees attached. The *entire point* of the GPL is that freedom is more important than freeloading.
I stand with Matt. Down with private equity! 🔦🔥🔥🔥
They can duke it out as much as they want in court. They've got the beef (or at least Matt does). Just not sure of Matt's thought process in attempting to deliberately sabotage my ability to maintain sites on WP Engine. My only crime was choosing to host for clients on a platform that didn't agree to follow Matt's arbitrary set of rules (that would only apply to them).
Yep you are a noob
So did WP Engine violate any licenses or not?
6 months ago, no. Now? Yes because they're changing the terms 😂
@@joeAnon796you mean to say like 2 weeks ago.
The terms changed literally just some 2 weeks ago
No. And that's despite the recent license update since WPE can still use the og license.
Never, they violate trademarks.
@@bepamungkas what trademark did they violate? WP is not a violation of WordPress
I don’t care what anyone says, WP is a blogging CMS. It’s not a website builder. Out of the box, vanilla WP wants you to create a blog page. The community saw the value of a CMS and started developing plugins and extensions to force WP to be a website builder. In today’s CMS market (many aimed at native website building), I don’t know why people still use WP. I’d rather build a site from scratch using Next.js than force a blogging platform to act like a website. Not to mention, you can always tell when you’re on a site that was built in WP.
A pretty popular use case for Next.js is to have a Wordpress backend, because the actual value of WP is it's versatility as a CMS.
In it's core is a blogging system, but has grown quite a bit from there and you can deliver content of pretty much any nature.
Of course it is meant to be something that speeds up processes and for that it's going to be a bit blotted, nobody will try to argue in favor of using it in some state of the art tech, but for most sites it brings a lot to the table.
You can tell sites are made with material UI quite quickly, or with bootstrap, or with shopify, etc. It's only natural that you can tell a site is made with Wordpress because half the sites in the world are made with it, and also... people often are not focused in making things different, they want it to work. A site is medium for a set of objectives, not the objective by itself.
It's true. If you try to make anything other than a blog, Wordpress will drive you insane!
Every time I see someone complain about Wordpress and then bang on about building their sites from scratch with Next.js (or whatever the new shiny js thing is) means they totally miss the point of the CMS part of Wordpress which is the main reason it’s so popular..you can give clients the ability to edit and manage their own content..it also makes it easy for agencies to update content on the fly…(which is huge if you’re running hundreds of sites)…yes, you could hook up a headless cms but why would you spend all that time when it’s there out of the box?…now, is Wordpress a good CMS…hell no! It’s not even in the same league as the likes of craft, Drupal etc etc..but it’s simplicity is why it’s so popular and it can be extended via its plugin architecture (which is a blessing and a curse)…as bad and clunky as it is there’s nothing else even remotely like it out there…(FOR FREE) which is quite baffling in this day and age…and btw Im not a fan of it, but I can totally understand it’s popularity
@@nicolaslandgraf7317 And don’t forget to mention all the restrictions that come with using a CMS in the first place. Add the fact that WP’s CMS was developed specifically for blogging, I’m sure any developer who has even an ounce of creativity or a client who wants something out of the norm would quickly run into the limitations and roadblocks of using WP for site development.
Plus, any respectable developer will have an established toolbox that can do what many of the bloated WP plugins can do, and probably better.
Just my 2 cents.
@@ragtop63 I don't really get the idea of critizing Wordpress based on it's plugins, they are made by other people, and you can make them too.
Some are garbage, some are pretty amazing.
Wordpress it's a tool, meant to be an standarized solution that works for people with or without technical knowledge.
What I can tell you is, if you think it limits you in any way, you don't know enough of it, because it really doesn't... which doesn't mean you have to use it for everything or even depend on it, or that is perfect in any way.
I don't know, I find it weird to slander a tool that powers half the websites on the internet since forever.
This is fascinating, and this video was excellent. The only observation I have is that an open stock company, publicly traded, is a thousand times better than a private equity firm, and both are pretty bad. Both of them our models for extracting capital from other people's labor, and we see that on full display in this fight. Brilliant video, keep doing what you do.
I've always hated Wordpress.
ok
Thanks BIlly - you'll get your gold star if you don't piss your shorts and stop licking the windows
do it
The crazy thing is that it has gotten WAY WAY crazier since this video
exblain
What would be a good open source license to exclude companies like WP Engine that are basically just reselling someone else's work for a profit? I know of AGPL which makes it harder for these companies to adopt. Anything else?
There is no way to introduce such a restriction under an OSI-compliant license, since it by definition restricts the freedom of users (regardless of whether we like those users and their use). AGPL was designed to stop another (ab)use case, namely a company taking FLOSS code, hacking it up locally, running it themselves, and then never publishing the changes or contributing them upstream, because they didn't 'distribute' under terms of GPL and so weren't bound to also distribute source code. The recent attempt to introduce a source-available license that prohibits freeloaders like cloud providers from just taking the code and selling it as a service while contributing nothing back is called the BSL (and various other names) and is being used by Sentry, various DBs and so on. It is *not*, however, considered open source by the OSI or anyone in the FLOSS community.
Personally, I consider it acceptable and a positive development. Unless you're a maximalist, like RMS/OSI/GNU/etc, a license that preserves all the freedoms of open source *except* undermining the ability of the original authors/maintainers to fund development by offering their code as a service commercially in direct competition and without recompense, and thereby enables a number of important, large projects to keep going and outcompeting proprietary alternatives, ought to make a great deal of sense.
It is not an option for Wordpress because the copyright to code contributions belongs to contributors and Mullenweg can't just relicense it (nor, it would appear, does he want to, since the point he's making is that users like WPEngine need to contribute voluntarily to make big open source projects viable).
By definition open source licenses must allow for commercial use. Freedom means freedom, end of story. No exceptions. If you don't like freedom, then you shouldn't use an open source license.
@@SchemingGoldberg Open source software and free software can be two separate things, depending on which definition you follow. Turns out, Stallman was probably right from the beginning.
Which part of the Internet is not engulfed in drama these days?
If I was a wordpress theme or plugin dev, I'd probably switch to something like webflow. It's fast growing and offers the same business model. Create themes and apps, plug them into the ecosystem, and earn income.
@03:36 - The AI LLM models all used open-source code from every "public" code-base... so in that situation I agree with Matt - These VC firms fund and take from open-source when it suits them - but give very little back to the source. (funds, percentage of revenue, developer contributions, etc)
I used to be a big WordPress user but eventually switched to a static site generator. Much less work, far more secure and faster. As the video mentioned, the only loser are the users.
Static sites are underrated.
Limited, but if that's all you need there is nothing better then that.
Are you serving websites for clients or just own projects?
SilverLake might not have the moral high ground, but they certainly have the legal one. Last time I saw a CEO melt down and fuck up so badly in public, doubling, then tripling down on it was when some guy bought Twitter.
Fun fact this guy bought Tumblr
As a Tumblr user, it is wild to hear about Matt Walsh’s ongoing insanity from one of my favorite tech TH-cam channels.
Bottom line: Nobody forced you to make an open source product.
There is a mountain of legal work to protect proprietary products from this sort of competition. You chose not to utilize basic business protections. You chose to publish the most important part of your business for the world to see. So what if you want to monetize it. So what if someone is better at monetizing it than you. Have you not heard of second mover advantage?
The only one at fault for not knowing how economy works is Wordpress. You had better be darn sure you can take on the competition _before_ open sourcing. Competition is a constant.
How is 63.3% "nearly half"? It's nearly two-thirds!
Its 43.3 not 63.3
@@jimmangefrida5207 The pie chart at 1 minute and 4 seconds shows 63.3% and he says "nearly half" while showing that image.
I love how his team called his $30k bluff and took the money
Not a bluff, he paid up for everyone. Wordpress has a mission and he's completely understanding of people who don't see themselves aligned with that mission. Open Source projects die when stuff like this happens, and WP is simply too big to risk that.
How is it a bluff when it's real money?
Is… the internet… dying?
Yes. Corporate interests are going to destroy the modern internet for the almighty dollar.
It is.
What does this sentence even mean. No nuthead, the internet isn't dying. Smaller websites are harder to find thanks to seo and google.
Always has been
Honestly, if we get more and more bots chugging out ai-generated content faster and faster, the internet will become that much more unbearable and useless
well damn...
Made my mind up the moment "private equities" was mentioned.
Because WordPress has this policy that if you are not buying WordPress paid support then it should be as difficult as possible to use their product. This is a total invite for third parties to step in. And as Automattic themselves sold their share of WP engine to Silverlake I have ZERO sympathy.
And that‘s why I make my websites in HTML, CSS and JS
web-components ftw
Hot take: we all do.. its layers all the way down, or something about an onion.. or turtles; I don’t know, it’s late
how do you build online shops with only html? just curious if this is in your business and how to solve it without a cms
@@tldw8354 I don‘t, sorry
I mean, AGPL3 would've solved this problem for Mullenweg. Stupid is as stupid does, I guess.
He wants to make GPL act as AGPL.
@@carolinas8886 That's closing the barn door after the horse had bolted.
@@dannyarcher6370 isn't it? As he can't tell WPE to opensource their entire platform...
Wordpress would have never thrived under AGPL. We would be having this same conversation about another CRM right now if WP would have been AGPL.
@@thepottmi but the trademark seems to be used to try to achieve the same results. Because of this, right now I think it would be better if it was closed source. The same I think about all AGPL software too.
One interesting thing that was mentioned in one of the Primeagen videos was that if Automatic wins the case they could theoretically go for others who use the WP name so others might be in danger as well.
Can't they just change their names?
@@futuza They might do so, but the WP name was useful for them
Nope. Automattic case lies on wordpress trademark within hosting context. Bluehost also paid license to provide wordpress hosting and woocommerce hosting. While others like Hostinger and GoDaddy avoid using the name and instead offer cpanel-based wp hosting.
I'm fine getting my daily dev news from Code Report 😁.
Anyone else get strong John McAfee vibes from Matt Mullenweg?
Wow, .. yes. Now that you mention it ...
Also Zuckerberg.
The guy gives weird vibes, definitely not to be trusted.
Also : Imagine if you're using WordPress in 1446 AH.
Yes, you're Correct 👍👍
Muhammed m0lested goats
THEY EXPLICITLY STATED "WP" WAS OK TO USE.
Every fireship video ever made is an epic, historic mic drop. No pressure. ❤
Thank you for this report! Love it - tbh I totally got lost in the past week - WP & Wordpress AND wayback under attack? Too much for me to read up.
WordPress is hot garbage so I don't know why I'd be on either side of this dispute. The one thing I'm sure of though, is that nothing makes me NOT want to do business with an organization more than its top management throwing a public tantrum like a child in a grocery store who didn't get the sugary cereal they wanted.
I bet that WP is going to lose 6-11% of its web presence in the next 10 years because of this drama.
And objectively speaking, this percentage was not at risk before this drama. The loss would come from technically skilled users, who had no issues with the software, but are now disappointed.
I my opinion technical skilled users wouldnt use wordpress in the beginning...
Seriously, i dont think that most 'developers' / agencies hacking together wordpress sites care at all (as far as they dont use wpengine) about bis drama.
I cannot believe that Matt Mullenweg was the Bay Harbor Butcher all along.
Someone must be the visionary behind any product. WordPress has Matt behind it. There are other content management systems available, but most of them aren't as popular - and for good reason. Ultimately, for any company that wants to remain on WordPress but refuses to accept the license agreement for the current version there are two options:
1) Remain on an older version that is governed by a different license agreement. This isn't a good option since bugs won't be fixed and updated plugins and themes won't run on the old code base.
2) Move your website to a different platform and live with the limitations (and let's face reality, websites are built on WordPress for a reason).
Went into this with one perspective and an open mind, left with a different perspective. Thanks Fireship! Very educational
Thanks God I never followed my lazy high school teacher path of being a "no coding wordpress web developer", and instead follow With Code React Web Developer path.
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Turn to him and repent from your sins today!
@@JesusPlsSaveMe is Jesus a Dev and what Software does He Code
@@ADeeSHUPA You wouldn't understand anyway, no point in explaining, and this guy on top said, "react web developer path", get a grip.
@@williamgrgorio React sometimes, Vue sometimes
@@FEED_EZ Do you create pages for clients? How do you host them? Do you use any headless CMS?
you missed a big question. how does this affect people who built their website on a host like hostinger using the wordpress plugin
It shouldn't. Your fine bro.
Dude is going McAfee levels of nuts.
i don't understand 80% of what this guy is saying in his vids...but he has the most mesmerising voice ever...almost like a robot but with feelings...
.login-lawsuit css class got me rolling. That is some professional development right there.
The idea that WordPress being open-source makes Automattic the "good guy" doesn't hold up, especially since one person (Matt) could tank the whole project if he wanted to. What really matters is the ecosystem-the plugins and everything around it. No one could just fork WordPress tomorrow and make it successful. In this context, the fact that it's open-source is pretty much irrelevant.
I have refused to host many WordPress sites in the past. As a developer working in the government (a government, not your government) when asked to do WordPress have basically said "no its too insecure, we cannot use it to host a government agencies website."
Who gives a crap what random people on Twitter are saying? Their opinions mean nothing.
agreed. Matt's opinion means nothing.
Fuck yeah brother - you tell 'em. TH-cam keyboard warriors unite.
TH-cam is blocking me from liking comments I agree with here:
I think DHH said it best tbh - "That's the deal. That's open source. I give you a gift of code, you accept the terms of the license. There cannot be a second set of shadow obligations that might suddenly apply, if you strike it rich using the software. Then the license is meaningless."
It is either open source or it isn't. If people make money from something you released for free BE GRATEFUL. The money they made feeds families and creates and drives more business.
Mullenweg making billions and people are mad at WP Engine for making millions.
One can do whatever they want with open source within the parameters of the license... that's the point of open source. Giving back is encouraged, not required, and an argument can be made that creating a company around an open source-based product that fills a niche and generates value for customers is in itself indirectly giving back. If the product didn't add value, people wouldn't buy it and would instead keep using the free version or use another product. It sucks that private equity benefits in the end, but if that cost outweighs the benefits then customers can find another product or project, or create their own. Matt deciding to weaponize the non-profit arm of WordPress to broadcast his position and force users to pick a side is puzzling at best. If the case goes to court (doesn't settle outside of court) then the justice system will decide whether Matt's actions were unlawful. We shall see.
Regardless of whether WP Engine is PE backed or not, mullenwag is a megalomaniac who in my opinion would have done the same thing regardless as to whether WP engine was contributing all its time to WP time. Also, at least according to WP Engine’s claims, it gives a reasonable amount of money to sponsoring WP events, so it’s not “nothing”. If Mullenwag didn’t want WP to actually be open source, he wouldn’t have made it open source. Then he could have done what he liked.
The whole thing gives "how dare you not giving money to my foundation" vibes.
They are also using countless FOSS projects in their infrastructure. Should they contribute to all of them?
If each one of them would get 8%, I would guess that it would add up to over 100%, so it's impossible.
Maybe split this 8% between them? It would be impossible to split this by "how much we use them", as it is impossible to measure. If it was even for everyone, WordPress would be left with almost nothing.
To top that off, many of those foundations have serious issues with how they are spending their money, including really weird political activism. And even if I wouldn't mind contributing to the software they represent, I specifically wouldn't want to give them any money.
Without OpenSource WP would be already dead (and it should have died way long ago)
If you want your software to be freely shared and used, and release it as open source, you can't then change your mind when someone does that and then demand a ransom. Don't release it as open source if you don't want people to use it as such.
The ultimate unresolved issue here is Corporate greed stealing open source gains.
That's ridiculous. The entire point of open source is that anybody (yes ANYBODY) can use it for any purpose, including commercial purposes. If you don't like that... just don't use an open source license. It's the fault of Matt for choosing to use an open source license.
This is just a case study of the limitations of the GPL, and similar licenses.
The GPL is great for software that needs to be distributed, not so great for software that is interacted with over the network.
And the AGPL only partially addresses that - if all you do is host the software, and provide closed-source plugins, it could be hard to argue that you're producing a combined work.
Needing the agreement of every contributor to switch licenses is good because it guarantees to contributors that their contributions will be protected by copyleft, but also means that WordPress can't simply change the license now (except in ways the GPL has provisions for).
mandela was not a freeedom fighter. he was a terry and his actions cost the lives innocent women and children,
0:58 It's on October 11, 2024 or Rabi' al-Akhir 8, 1446 AH and you're watching Fireship Videos about WordPress Ecosystem W4r on the Code Report Series.
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