Why Martin Scorsese is Right About Marvel Movies
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2019
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// Are Marvel Movies Cinema? //
In this essay I explore Martin Scorsese' claim that Marvel films and other big budget franchise pictures are something different than classical cinema.
With the support of Creative Europe - MEDIA Programme of the European Union
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Films I reference:
1:16 Touch of Evil
1:22 Taxi Driver
1:42 Days of Heaven
2:29 Vivre Sa Vie
2:57 The Godfather
3:43 There Will Be Blood
4:28 Her
4:57 Inside Llewyn Davis
5:33 Barry Lyndon
6:21 The Grand Budapest Hotel
7:49 The Place Beyond The Pines
7:57 The Ballad of Buster Scruggs
8:13 Parasite
8:31 Breathless
8:35 Tree of Life
8:38 Days of Heaven
8:58 Taxi Driver
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OK - So I know the #1 criticism I'm going to receive is for comparing action sequences from Marvel movies to dramatic moments from other films. Here's my justification:
1. As I say immediately after that section, it's not that Marvel films don't have those kinds of moments, it's that those moments aren't the dramatic core. For any of the "cinema clips" I could have chosen dozens of other similar moments from those films that illustrated similar emotional exploration. Any given Marvel film might have 1-3 of those scenes, and dozens and dozens of such action clips. It's not about whether or not the Marvel films have such moments, it's about what's at the heart of each.
2. I'm being a little hyperbolic intentionally to make my point. The video is about feeling the contrast between the two. I expect my audience to know it's not a 1:1 comparison, and understand what I'm trying to get at.
Unfortunately, this video will not really convince anyone to change positions on the matter. Someone who already agrees with you won't have to make an effort to interpret your argument in good faith. But someone who disagrees will only see this as another example of snobbish gatekeeping.
Thomas Flight
Others versed in film analysis would call the juxtaposition of these scenes to deliver your point, "academically dishonest".
i.e: misrepresenting facts by comparing the peak action points with the peak dramatic points.
Not that you care; as I'm just one, but this lost you my subscription.
@@nimkeejoshproductions Well said!
DId you read what you replied to? He directly addresses your point. Fifty Shades of Grey isn't Literature and the Marvel movies aren't Cinema and that's O.K. - they don't have to be.
both dramatic scenes and action scenes from marvel movies are equally stupid and unnecessary, why wear gloves ?
What pisses me off is people focusing on the quote and not on Scorsese's real concern : Disney slowly destroying independent theaters.
Agreed.
disney isnt destroying more like disney is buying everything tbh
The funny thing is that back in the day Disney was largely responsible for legitimising animated cinema. They made daring and risky projects like Fantasia, even though they were uncertain if though were uncertain whether they would get their money back.
@@itstrending8440 and that's still destroying other people's hard work. I like marvel and star wars but because Disney now owns them I'm highly disappointed how kids no nothing about the origins and how different the movie characters from the original writers point of views. Everything gets political, and silly in the MCU movies. And nerfed thanos, hulk, Captain America.
@@christianhenry4173 it's weird to complain about the characters being different from the original writers' pov, and also complain about the movies being political. marvel comics have always been super political, and not just in the way that all art inherently is. it's worth looking up the origins of captain america, why he was created and what he represented to his original creators.
Chris Evans actually complained about this himself. There were two non-Marvel films he did during his Capt America period and he liked them and thought they were very good but he said nobody went to see them. Capt America was colossal and though people love Chris, they didn't want to see him if he wasn't carrying the shield.
Anthony Mackie said that too
Well imagine the build-up people had reading comics and imagining being able to be a superhero, to then hearing the news that their favorite superhero is coming to the big screen with all the tools possible from a big production, that's the thing, maybe it's not as artistic but it has fundamentals in the story of the character since forever
i watched some of his non marvel movies like gifted n the red sea resort. they are very very good but both are really overshadowed by his role as capt america
To be fair, he's not a really dynamic actor. He's always been "the adonis" character in most of his films.
Does knives out count? Cause he was very good in that I thought.
Marvel fans are very sensitive to criticisms of Marvel, I’ve found.
It's gotten worse after Black Panther 2 was released
deep down they know their stories are shallow
@@DarkTemplar981 that first black panther was straight garbage . I thought it was supposed to be good
Let’s not blame marvel. It’s Disney that ruined Marvel, Star Wars, Willow and so on…. They were even so desperate to offer a deal to that trash family that starts with a K. These are the same people that sell the Bachelor and made two more good morning America shows just to promote their BS. Fuk disney and their political views on ABCs world news . Little do you guys know by 2036 disney plans on pumping out 1 marvel movie a week
Martin criticised not only Marvel, but superhero movies in general. That includes DC too. I hate how DC Fanbois are acting like Martin only hated on Marvel and not DC.
I find it funny how people are saying that this video has been proven right since audiences don't like phase 4 of Marvel, when Marvel has been like this the whole time. This video was always right, most people were just attracted to spectacle or references to their favorite comics to notice. Now that Marvel has run out of original ideas or big superheros to draw attention, these things are becoming more obvious and people feel like they're being cheated.
These movies have always been different than Cinema and everyone called them summer blockbusters. These movies made to be spectacular, appealing to all audiences, and profitable. Before Marvel it was the occasional Roland Emmerich movie or Transformers, but Marvel took the summer blockbuster concept into hyperdrive and burned everyone out on them. And Top Gun Maverick shows us that it's possible to make a summer blockbuster that is also quality cinema, unfortunately Marvel just isn't interested in trying that
I don‘t think that the art of cinema has been lost (Everything Everywhere All At Once and Drive My Car both came out this year), but I do think that the art of the summer blockbuster has been lost. You look at the blockbusters of the 80s- the Terminator films, Star Wars, and you compare them to the blockbusters today- it's tragic.
Its kind of pretentious, but I would generally agree with Scorsese on this as MCU films basically shifted to design by committee
Honestly, I agree. People act like it was some amazing thing before Phase Four ruined everything. The only amazing thing about it is that they made a fully connected story over 11 years of movies with 22 of the damn things. At heart, superhero movies are made to be entertaining. To most, story and characters are secondary. Only really exceptional ones are actually good enough to just be good movies.
Like, name the last time before Jonathan Majors became an Ezra Miller level threat that you watched one of the Ant-Man movies. Then compare it to something like Logan or Sam Raimi’s Spider-Man. I’m not saying superhero movies can’t be cinema. I’m just saying that that’s not what they are at heart, and that you have to really care and put a shit ton of heart and soul into it to make it that, and that’s not what Marvel Studios has done a lot of the time.
Also saying I like superhero movies that’re entertaining. I enjoyed Quantumania and L&T; you may now beat me up.
Most people don’t realize or recognize that there’s a huge difference between being entertaining and being good. Sometimes they feed into each other, but other times, like my favorite James Wan films Malignant and Aquaman, there is next to no quality (story-wise) and yet both of those are much more entertaining to me compared to his two Conjuring movies (which are much better films.
Bet lots of those Marvel fans feel real dumb right now - heh, honestly it's kinda the same thing for remakes esp for Disney. While I'm kinda nonchalantly amused audiences and even some fans are agreeing with Martin now, but hey at least better late than never.
What hurts me the most is knowing how much hate is Scorsese getting by only giving his opinion, defending the type of film that he loves
There's a difference between having an opinion and insulting people for what they like. His opinion should have been a sentence, not a rant about moviegoers.
@@sonofblackwidow3765 when did he ever say that MCU viewers are brainless dolts? By claiming that franchise blockbusters are market researched, test screened, and vetted for approval? That's just how it is. He said they were well made in his original comments and in the Times piece said they were worked on by many people with considerable talent. I like the MCU just fine but don't think it's a personal attack on me.
yourfavoritepizzaboy idk if he should’ve worded it differently or what but to say marvel movies aren’t cinema is just flat out wrong. Just because you don’t enjoy a certain type of film doesn’t mean it’s not cinema.
When did he defend the films he loves? Where was he put in a position where he had others were attacking "his cinema?" He was going on the offensive towards films that people enjoy. I love Scorsese but the man shat where people ate. There's no defending him here.
Specially since he is talented
Martin Scorsese seeking attention? Dude's literally one of the greatest directors of all time
And "The greatest" director of our times...
Amen to that 🙌🏻
@@MrNo-dc2wp na..what about Terrance Malick? And William Friedkin, pt Anderson, coen brothers? They're all truly great....not sure of MS is on the very top. Still one of the greatest tho
@@TxxT33 They, QT, Chris Nolan, Fincher and others comes under "One of the greatest". I mean, none of the directors from the early 90s era are as consistent and influential as Mr.Scorcese
@@TxxT33 You seriously think pta can be better than Scorsese? That's hilarious.
Mallick and Friedken? Maybe, but Scorsese still has a much stronger case.
Then there are others who you could make an equally great case as Scorsese like Francis Coppola or Roman Polanski or Jean Luc Godard and few more.
I’m very lucky I’ve got a classic cinema near me that does replays of old films and try’s to run all the most known Arthouse films that came out that year. Let’s hope cinema never dies
@@Ophelia_-bl7mi Perth, Australia. Love it here
@@Ophelia_-bl7mi they do these Monday doubles that go for the month where you pay $15aud to see two films played back to back and they’ve always got an amazing line up of all sorts of films that are usually related to each other. They also do just randoms specials, like they play the movie The Room and other similar cult movies often which draws in huge crowds. It’s all a real treat with how the cinema was designed too being so old, there’s even balconies you can sit and watch as I presume it was just an art theatre once upon a time
@@Ophelia_-bl7mi sorry g that’s a huge message, I just love my local town ahah
@@bigpoppa9737 That's okay, i'd wish such local cinema:(
I wish I had a movie theater near where I live that showed nothing but old classic movies like that. You’re a lucky guy.
There are a number of Scorsese pictures, that I know will stay with me for the remainder of my time on earth, and if there’s an afterlife I’ll still be thinking about them.
After a Marvel movie, I forget what happened before I even leave the theater.
you dont ever trash talk tobey he learnget!!!
sir why did u call me loser
sir why did u call me loser
sir why did u call me loser
sir why did u call me loser
Imagine saying that Martin Scorcese is seeking attention. I am a Marvel fan, but that's Martin Freakin Scorcese, saying he seeks attention makes you look very stupid.
Indeed. And i liked rdj's response to this. He just said: "Of course, he is fricking Martin Scorsese, he can say whatever he wants." and that is true. Rdj gets it, but mcu fans don't. But you can't get them to understand... They are all 14 year old dorks who think no film is greater than Endgame.
One Ordinary Guy idk what u did at 14 but I know for me 14 year olds don’t think end games the best movie ever and they don’t care the more concerned with other teenage shit like girls and drinking neither do I think little kids give a shit weather what they’re watching is ‘cinema’ or not the people getting triggered are probably fat nerds who sit in their parents basement surrounded by comics
Strangely enough, it's a lot of millennials and tasteless 20 somethings who are also offended and call Scorsese "pretentious" or an attention seeker
@@oneordinaryguy5088 *fanboys im honestly with RDJ on this and I like marvel films (im more of a casual mcu film but I would like to watch all the movies as i've seen most of them by now)
@@samihasan2572 what does a wrestler have to do with this?
Even RDJ wasn't pissed at Scorsese, he appreciated his opinion
Yes because RdJ is a very smart man who knows that an opinion is not to be taken as an offense
Mr. Downey is what I like to refer to as a class-act.
@@greylithwolf yeah but he still cannot compare to actors like Leo,Bale,Daniel Day-Lewis or McConaughey. these are the best classy men of hollywood. i personally do not like RDJ's personality but i do like his movies Charlie Chaplin and Kiss Kiss Bang Bang,he used to be my crush as a teen girl.
He did disagree with Scorsese but he still respected his opinion
He was just playing the game. The man may have been a drug-addict in the past but he ain't that stupid to make a rant of names like Scorsese, Cameron or Coppola.
Of course he was right, and time proved him right. Just look at how everyone sees the marvel movies for what they are now, because the hype has already passed.
This comment is not comments
Sorry, but you don't speak for me. I loved Phase IV.
@@theilluminatibenefactor Have you looked outside of Marvel movies? Like for example watching The Grand Budapest Hotel, or for movies with more action Pulp Fiction or Kill Bill? For me, whenever I look outside of the Marvel and other popular movies bubble, I see where these films are lacking. Or are you aware of their weaknesses and enjoy them regardless? I would like to know because I can't overlook these flaws anymore.
Edit: Or watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail for more comedy.
Marvel movies are just spectacle and spectacle without stakes, character or consistency is worthless on its own.
@@salty_3k506 If you seriously think people can't like "good" movies and marvel movies at the same time, you're very close minded. You'd probably be shocked that people can listen to more than one genre of music too LMAO.
@@eggsbaconchiz i never said that though or at least that wasn't my intention. i was saying that i think that a lot of people only know marvel movies and have nothing to compare them against so they think they are the best movies out there. i was actually encouraging people to diversify their film palette, to not close in on one specific genre or whatever.
of course you can like both marvel movies and anything else, i just think that it's important to recognize these films' shortcomings and that they are nowadays mostly made to make money, not as genuine works of art.
I so agree with this video essay, I've been reminiscing movies like The Fugitive with Harrison Ford, Seven with Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt, and Shawshank Redemption. Thinking about those movies I remember the genuine journeys and emotional revelations these characters go through. For Marvel in general it feels more like a Saturday morning cartoon from back in my day
That’s so spot on it isn’t even funny, I recently watched the Godfather for the first time in years and it made me sad to think a movie like that probably wouldn’t even be made now because film studios would be too concerned about the length and pace of the film, that’s why we rarely get masterpiece films anymore
I mean there's still tons of movies nowadays that are like that, they just make more money.
@@ploopy8780 there isn’t really and they sell less than what they used to so boring remakes are becoming more popular
Beat me to it with the Saturday morning cartoon bit. Was thinking the exact same thing.
Imagine a whole generation raised on that media as the sole product being consumed. As an elder millennial, I feel like the last generation of a dead world, the world without internet, cell phones and social media …. Its kinda unbelievable that all happened within my 30something lifetime
When the theatre is filled with noisy crowd who shouts and claps every 10 minutes, it's indeed a theme park movie.
It’s quite simple these “superhero” movies are made to have fun,not to reflect later back at home or in the bed.Why are these movies so popular? Because i think(tell me if i am wrong) Marvel and DC got a tremenduos number of comicbook fans and it’s quite obvious why superhero genre movies dominate the cinema at the moment.
Weebs are a disgrace Christopher Nolan’s Dark Knight Trilogy is definitely quality cinema
And that's not really an insult. But Scorsese doesn't want them to overshadow non-franchise movies completely
Disney would rather focus on making Jokey Jokes then actual cinema
I'll never forget those moments in my life 😥 when i was at the edge of my seat
The difference between movies made by film makers and movies made by studios.
I like that name bd cooper😉
@@kevinenriquez688 Thank you, Kevin! Glad, you like it. 😊
Bingo
I agree; that's a simple and good distinction.
Very true.
3 years later and his comment is Aging like "Fine Wine"
If someone said this back when the first iron man was released would you say they were right all along?
@@WL1264 Yes.
Every MCU movie is exactly same movie as the first Ironman
@@themanwithnothingtolose so iron man, winter soldier, civil war, spiderman homecoming, guardians of the galaxy and black panther are all the same to you?
@@WL1264 do you know what a formula is?
This movies follow the exact same formula and people are finally waking up to that and getting tired of it.
It's all Disneys fault. Every big Blockbuster movie coming out now is nothing but Brainless Popcorn entertainment. Nothing original or thought provoking. Cinema is dead and Money Killed it. Every movie that's making money are superheroes, Sequels and remakes. Nothing original. Nothing new.
In the 90s we had movies like Forest Gump, Shawshank redemption, Pulp Fiction, Fight Club, The Matrix, Goodfellas. The 2000s; Lord of the rings trilogy, Harry Potter, Gladiator, Troy, 300.
@@WL1264 you are just a marvel theme park bandwagoner who's mad that one of the greatest film makers of our time called out your favorite movies for what they really are.
"Brainless Popcorn Entertainment"
I actually agree. The emotional depth and moments you could build up in all of these comic book movies are wasted to being a few small scenes whereas the fight scenes last minutes upon minutes and honestly, it's sometimes hard to keep up with as a viewer. I like some Marvel films but I also like tv and films that take their time to build and reveal.
Scorsese : Being cordial and respectful, carefully voicing his opinion
Most of Internet: *throws him under the bus*
the loudest voices were not born when Scorsese started studying film.
Gatekeeping what is and isn't art isn't respectful.
SightNinja He literally said they are a new art-form. Did you watch the video?
@@sethprestenback8617 He also says that they lack substance (emotional danger, revelation, mystery). And that's false.
Great. A good portion of great films are gonna die off and go unnoticed because a few Marvel fanboys keep getting their panties in a twist. Thanks a lot, you pussies.
I love how he specifies exactly why he feels that way, they really do lack any sort of tension or risk. We all know that Spiderman is going to be brought back to life in the Endgame sequel.
Exactly, they are crowd-pleasing fan service movies made by big studios. There is no art or great message in any of them
I know, right? The fact that Chris Evans and Robert Downey Jr. were leaving the MCU after Endgame was known for weeks. That wasn't much of a surprise either. Nothing is a surprise when you already have the next 5 movies in production.
I dont think the mere presenceof tension or risk constitues cinema. The avengers took risks by taking the stone to Thanos on titan. We didnt predict that he would actually snap
Marvel film have only moment, you may see a lot of their movie but very little of it stay in your mind and force you to think or revoke any kind of emotion. Too safe, too little thing that matter.... a perfect kind of escapism (until they force feed the audience with political and trend). That why i find myself looking forward to see more realistic take on this genre, start with Watch Men because I know Zack Snyder from this movie.
@@unamedunamed7384 that's why infinity war is their best movie.
A thing to note is that for a majority of people, superhero movies or movies of their nature are comfortable and familiar. It’s a sort of “guarantee” that the couple hours you watch are not wasted.
Art films are a bit of a risk. They are sometimes nonconventional in their presentation and structure and most people will pass on seeing them because they don’t know what they’re in for. It’s like getting a box of chocolates vs getting a Hershey’s bar. You’re in for a treat but you know for a fact what you’re getting with one of them.
Thank you for making that distinction. I find that true with my own watching habits. For a few years, I genuinely only looked forward to Marvel movies, because I could expect a certain feeling from them. There were other movies I wanted to watch, but I didn't really look forward to them, it was more giving them the benefit of the doubt. Sure-thing entertainment vs. speculative, and for me, comfort is certainty, and at that time I needed comfort more than anything else in my entertainment.
@Shinshocks555Yeah, more or less. Marvel is as much cinema as McDonald's is food.
Most of Scorsese's films aren't art films, and he wasn't just defending art films. They're good popcorn movies which were standard for many decades. It never took a whole lot of thought to enjoy his films, and they didn't stray too far from conventional storytelling. The gangster genre is especially formulaic even after The Sopranos. But you could still get into them without having to be overwhelmed with spectacle, and typically no one showed up to save the day. He allowed people to be uncomfortable throughout the entire story, and usually it was expected that the protagonists would lose bigly. And permanently.
It seems like the comic book, Star Wars, Harry Potter, and LOTR films are about ensuring that all is right in the world or will be as soon as soneone punches the problems in the face, shoots them with lasers, or literally wave a magic wand to make them go away. It's as if those kinds of movies are some sort of grotesque lullabies.
Yeah, like the vvitch. I can not get past the dialogue and slow tempo, even tho i like the concept of that movie.
3 years later and Scorsese’s criticism still has merit
I remember seeing so many people defend Thor: Love and Thunder with terms like “fun and enjoyable” when that’s literally what Martin claimed these movies were
the more I grew more the more I find the whole Idea of the superhero genre really really dumb. a man dressing up in a weird flashy costume to save the world common 😂 Kick Ass tried to make fun of that but it end up becoming one of them.
@@tareklegrand7747 Just because somethings ridiculous and outlandish doesn't make it dumb.
@@projekttaku1 It is dumb even if it's not ridiculous isn't really a compliment.
Superman is from another planet okay we get, where he's from they wear underwear over pants okay why not 😂 other superheros use it to hide their own identities that's why they also wear underwear above their pants and a mask to cover the their faces cause that's why they wear costumes in the first place right ? well Superman doesn't need a Mask he has glasses 👓
@@tareklegrand7747 so what?
So what if they wear flashy costumes?
They simply aren't trying to restrict themselves and their stories.
Doesn't make it dumb, just experimental.
@@projekttaku1 it's actually the other way around
just because they are experimental doesn't mean they aren't dumb.
He was right. Disney is oversaturating the film market. And as many other film studios attempts to follow the "Marvel Formula", it is just driving other genres of films away from hitting the theaters
The funny thing is Marty kinda got exposed later on when he admitted he hadn't seen any Marvel movie....
It's hilarious he judge stuff without even seeing it.
Exactly 👌
@@kennethcole7657 Ok fair enough. So what do you say to people who have seen them and agree with with Scorsese? Super hero movies are so over done because every other studio keeps trying to follow in Marvels footsteps.
He's wrong. People like to be entertained and Marvel films entertain millions. Endgame was able to do the impossible and break Avatar's record.
Scorsese may never make a movie that's very popular and he's jealous.
@@justiceloa208 Yet Scorsese knows he's never gonna make a blockbuster movie.
It’s funny how people think that Scorsese needs to defend himself. He is a cornerstone in film history y’all. Lol
It's like Hitchcock complaining about blockbusters like Jaws and Star wars.
Some people are delusional and are content to be so.
Tbh hes right though.
@@claudiataylor2955 true
Hitchcock liked Smokey and the bandit btw.
Scorsese is getting more and more correct with each MCU movie. They used to be impactful and well crafted, now they are all the same: same personalities, same quippy humor, same plot, basically fun to watch in the moment until afterwards
Yes like the early Thor had an epic, Shakespearean way of speaking. He was a god. Then they turned him into a 4th wall breaker who quips like Iron Man. And then I can't take it seriously
He was always right.
Honestly, the movies were catered towards kids and teenagers. Like 90s kid loved old Disney movies. But everyone eventually grows up.
The marvel and superhero films are fun. But they are popcorn flicks with extremely high budgets. They have no substance and the acting and writing is very flat
@@lightup6751 IMO they could be really good, if they knew when to be serious and when to make a joke. If the jokes were included in the story. Like the "sycophantic suck ups" speech in Batman Begins is funny, but it's also character building - Bruce will destroy his home and reputation for others. If Marvel limited its humor it could be great
@@oliverford5367
I think the movies are not bad. They embrace what they are. Superhero movies. Big blockbuster flicks with high budgets and tons of CGI. Focusing on heroics and hype moments.
They are not movies that give a deeper understanding of the human condition.
The writing and acting is very simple and formulaic, the plots are recycled and there is barely any stakes. Its a cartoon. And in their own right the greatest comic book adaption of all time. But from a film making point they are one dimensional action blockbusters.
My problem isnt with superhero films. Its with people being ignorant to admit the nature of these films. Or claiming they are deep character studies that are rich of depth and profound meaning.
The reason the Batman trilogy was critically praised was because Nolan as someone who never cared for comics or superheroes managed to give Batman and the world of Batman a new interpretation. These films felt like well directed and well acted crime thrillers rather than another cartoonish battle of superheroes to save the world.
@@oliverford5367Thor and the dark world were boring movies.
There's a good reason the directing of Spider-Man 2 and the MCU feel so far apart. One is a drama that happens to have a superhero element - the other is a Rollercoaster thrill ride meant to wow you. They're both valuable, but they aren't the same.
I hate how people manipulated Martin's words into hate when he was spitting facts
Exactly, its on both ends too
Ricky Thomas yeah it's sad
@@waldokleynhans6977 I understand
@Peder Hansen Nope facts now go cry about ot fanboy 😂😂
Even me, who is a huge fan of old school cinema, and huge fan of Marvel movies, and usually like to take a step back when controversy hits, after watching his interview and other videos I still misinterpreted what he said until I saw this vid. Really hard to stay calm and see facevalue on things when the media wants controversy and ratings everywhere.
Only problem I have with Marvel films is the sensitive fanbase. I had to deal with the attitude that every person has to love Marvel films or something is wrong with them.
Their online fanbase consists of really weird kids who groupthink. The teenage fans of the franchise are the worst and yet the adults aren't much better because they can't fathom that there's deeper stuff to obsesses over than Marvel.
As a marvel myself it is pretty stupid when "marvel fans" do and say toxic things. I myself love marvel, but wouldn't advertise for every single person I meet.
DC is better than Marvel in every aspect!
Your comment perfectly describes DCEU
Right? It's GOOD to criticize things, especially things you like, especially things that should be better than they are.
Scorcese is right. And the general problem with people is that they get easily offended and are misinterpreting stuff when it comes to something they love. You could say "That movie's dumb",that would translate into their heads as "Anyone who loves that movie is dumb,including you". And they get mad,so it's a wide problem of taking things personally while it isn't personal.
When you are a superhero, nothing is at stake because everyone knows everything will work out for the good guys in the end.
And even if it doesn't work out, there is always the multiverse of reboots.
In the first Godfather, there are several times when you genuinely don't know if Michael will be killed. By the end, what definitely dies is his spirit and his soul is corrupted forever...
...you just don't get that kind of risk in the Marvel films. The stakes are so much lower. The portrayal of psychological pain so much weaker. The potential for revelation so much more diluted.
They are fun though...lots of fun. Like a rollercoaster ride at an amusement park.
true
Comment, though I respect it tremendously, seems to be redundant as Scorcese and this video has already stated
Infinity war and endgame are movies that exist. Blockbuster movies can have heightened stakes but as he says in the video they are not the focus
@@kanedoherty4561 Those movies hardly have high stakes when it's pretty obvious to just guess the general gist of what's going to happen
@@kanedoherty4561 Yeah, no one could have guessed the goodey good guys in spandex would defeat thr baddie bad dude in spandex. High stakes indeed.
Asking Scorsese what he thinks of Marvel movies is like asking a Michelin-starred chef what they think of The Cheesecake Factory. We know it's not the best, but we still really enjoy it.
This is a great comparison that also illustrates why the Chef would be upset if someone said “Cheesecake Factory is the same as any Michelin Star Restaurant”
@@ThomasFlight They're still both food
Thomas Flight It's just food bro
Cheese cake is a pretty good example. Another comparison might be, escargot. Escargot is considered a 'high class' type of Hors d'oeuvre, but most people don't like or want to eat snails. It doesn't matter how praised something is, if it (food or film) isn't appealing to a person, they won't (re)try it, 'get it' nor recommend it. That being said, people who do partake in those kinds of dishes (escargot or cheese cake) have developed a taste for what a good and bad dish is.
And with that in mind, despite what someone like Scorcese might think, people don't blindly love Marvel movies. The films, performances, soundtracks, villains, motives, etc. get rated and ranked all the time. I mean, does everyone, wanting to relive the MCU, go out of their way to watch the 1st Hulk? (Which predates Iron Man) or Thor: the Dark World? or Age of Ultron? or Captain Marvel? I know I don't. But that's just me.
I like cheese cake, but I have standards. And I'm not above dropping an old favorite if I later find it to be lacking. Also, I'm not opposed to trying new or what's considered 'high class' food, but if I don't like it, I'm not going to keep eating it in order to 'get it'.
Cheesecake Factory isn't food. Michelin-starred food is food. CF food isn't food, it's some other substance.
There's a difference between the likes of Zodiac, LA Confidential, Taxi Driver, The Lives of Others, the Troubled times at El Royale and most of Franchise movies. Story-Dialogues-Character development
I just wish they'd give the genre a break for 5-10 years. I am used to the occasional comic book/ super hero film coming out every now and again, but it seems like we have been under an onslaught for the last 2 decades now. I am honestly shocked people aren't sick of them by now.
I love marvel movies but u are right. They aren’t the movies that make me want to make movies
They're enjoyable but at the end of the day, each individual movie (except for Civil War) isn't all that special.
@@JDP2104 what about Iron Man? That's a movie that isnt remotely like the other MCU flicks?
What if they motivate someone else to make movies?
@@ausis6214 marvel movies are more like products other than expression of feelings. Thats the difference of movies made by corporations and movies made by filmmakers.
@@jeff-dk4tz James Gunn makes wholy unique James Gunn films tho, same with Taika Watiti
People are mad at scorsese for being absolutely right. Disney is going to ruin the film industry
Has ruined*
Oh most definitely but trying to critique capitalism by gatekeeping what people like and changing the definition of what “real cinema” is is a lazy way to do it. Scorsese would be fine if Disney gave him 40 million to go make a period piece.
@@gnarrcan108 They will never do that and that's the point. He is trying to protect his craft with some noise, bring attention and he did. What would yo have him do, start a petition?
Well, they're trying to. Just start collecting good movies and sharing them with people
@@StephenKershaw1 It's entertainment for dumb/ignorant mostly young people. Start collecting actual works of cinema and get cultured.
I love that you gave Barry Lyndon as an example here. in my opinion its is one of the films that manages to really encapsulate what cinema is about. Similar to the music of Beethoven or Mozart Kubrik's work will be studied and admired hundreds of years from now.
I tried to watch it with friends years ago, they were the kind of people that would love marvel movies today and they couldn't even follow Barry Lyndon for 5 minutes.
I loved it .
Honestly, man I wouldn't blame your friends; it takes a while to disconnect from the zoomer adhd brain. I personally experienced this when I was younger as when I first tried watching 2001, it was physically painful for me even though I really really wanted to watch it. It was the slowest film I had ever watched at the time. Ultimately, I had to have a gradual transition from the films I can easily digest to the films that I *want* to digest but couldn't. Part of that transition was first watching films from the likes of Quentin Tarantino, Wes Anderson, Park Chan-Wok, hell, even some of Marty's; relatively easy to sit thru stuff that the average movie-goer can handle but also have plenty of substance to explore. From there it took about 2 years for me to finally be able to watch movies from the 40's, some of which are my favorites now!
That's prolly because Barry Lyndon is boring AF.
We're so post modern now that you can't attempt to distinguish between two concepts without being called out for gatekeeping
I have never believed a character in an MCU movie was in legitimate danger, even when they _literally die._ I still don't believe it.
Well, marvel characters infamously never stay dead in the comics so....
Yeah. That's why Thanos dusting half the people away at the end of Infinity War didn't bother or affect me emotionally. Because I knew that they were going to get brought back to life in the next movie.
That's why I didn't cared at all when Spiderman died, cause I knew he would be brought back.
Being true to the comics, marvel characters never stays dead
Fun true story: I watched Black Widow the other day and during the 3rd act I was like 'holy shit! How tf will Black Widow get out of that air base thingy? She's gonna dieeeeee!' Then I realized that she died in Endgame which means she wouldn't die in Black Widow. She made it out alive by flying. Physics 101... There are no stakes lmfao
A film legend vs. Young Marvel fans who probably haven’t even read a comic
Namialus I’m actually a young marvel fan who never read a comic
@@liltree8382 then you are not a marvel fan you are MCU fan , its different
Well, who’s to say the directors for the marvel movies, the actors and the composers aren’t legends? Have you watched any of the MCU movies?
TheGmodMagician yes and I can say they are ok films with s rated budgets.
@@kanyenorth3112 they make money because audience finds them good, not because of their budgets.
I do agree with him. And that’s probably the difference between Marvel and DC. DC seems to be more cinematic, with emotional acting. 🎭 However, there has always been a dividing line between action movies and movies with more acting emphasis. It’s usually the budget.
At this point, MCU is not just a theme park, it's becoming circus
The constant comedic relief in unnecessary moments makes me want to tear my eyes out.
@@helvete_ingres4717 well the few serious situations in them should be at least or perhaps almost everything should just be reduced to joke or a quip.
@@helvete_ingres4717 mate there's way too much comedic moments
@@helvete_ingres4717 unnecessary lines makes superhero movies cheesy and cringy asf
@@randomly_random_0 the concept of superheroes is inherently cheesy..if you're going to make one it's smarter to let it be overtly cheesy than try and make an inherently cheesy and camp subject matter all grim & serious
The ‘comedic’ moments. Like, it’s nice to have some levity and character moments in your movie... I just wish they were a bit smarter about it instead of giving one character in particular all the “good” lines.
Movies like *Empire Strikes Back, Alien* and *Jaws* showed us that even popcorn cinema could be artistic, but these days popcorn movies have become mindless and soul-less. Latest example of a mindless cash-grab: Rise of Skywalker.
Neil B I didn’t think Rise of Skywalker was a terrible movie, but I still agree with your overall point.
Yeah. Just compare first teo terminator movies with the last two.
I personally like the rise of skywalker but yeah
I mean like rise of skywalker. ...but too many morons complained about the last jedi (which in my opinion has as much artistic value as Empire Strikes Back) , ...so you can tell rise of skywalker was blatantly studio film that back pedaled on ideas and short changed characters..
Rise of Skywalker felt like a marvel movie, I had liked the previous two entries ( I know an unpopular opinion) and TROS tried nothing new and played it too safe
marvel movies are like junk food. they’re fun and enjoyable but they’re not nourishing. they won’t enrich your life or change your perspective on the world. i’ve never left a marvel movie in awe, and i usually forget what it was even about very soon. true cinema for me leaves you speechless for a while after, deep in thought, even changing your perspective on life. it’s transformational. marvel is a good time if you want to shut off your brain, have a fun popcorn flick, and get an adrenaline rush from the action
As others must have pointed out (not reading almost 21k comments), I'm sure this is not what Scorsese means. He doesn't mean only dramas can be cinema, never action movies. And I guess it's obvious the climax of an action movie is the action and the climax of a drama movie is the drama. You don't need to put them side by side to make that point.
It's more about the mass production and loss of the artistic flavor of the work. Marvel is a product of entertainment for mass consumption, Gone with the Wind or The Godfather are artistic productions that entertain because that's the effect art produces in an audience.
This also shows how the Joker movie had to be a Joker movie to get attention. If not, it wouldn't have recognition.
so true! it would have never reached such audience if it wasn't named Joker. But this is just a moment. It was with zombies, then vampires, now it's comics.
@@atumcommel this moment has lasted a long time and needs to die. there are very few good comic movies. joker, logan, the dark knight are top tier. wonder women, deadpool, avengers infinity war, guardians of the galaxy and the first iron man are good but not great. other than that these movies are bad if not complete dog sh**.
Taxi Driver.
@@chada.3382 This
Oh look someone that sees through the bullshit
Marvel is basically the fast food of cinema
There’s also chick-fal-a (or hover you spell it) in fast food absolutely amazing fast food just like marvel
And sometimes you just need a good greasy burger and a beer. But basing your whole diet around them is an early death.
It’s the Taco Bell of fast food. Sometimes poisonous and awful
@@ironjedi3333 cope
@@ironjedi3333 Yeah but if that's all you enjoy and you shit on someone like Jiro Ono for disliking it then you got a lot of growing up to do...
My problem with the Marvel universe is it's so huge and complex and you have to watch every movie to get the payoff in every other movie. Which is awesome, but at the same time feels more like homework than entertainment, and you feel utterly lost if you're not completely up to date when watching the newest movie or series. The long interconnected story arc is great. But trying to keep up with it all is literally impossible. And now, bring on the multiverse.... 3 Spidermans was awesome and a huge payoff for someone my age. But I imagine some younger people were like "who the hell are these other Spidermans?"
I'm from the future and it seems old man was right
Looks like you touched grass in the future.
what’s horrible that it changed the way people look at movies. I remember people being very mad that there were no useless jokes in batman movie or why was it so dark.
I know. These fucking mcu shills can even grasp what makes a movie soo good coz they have indoctrinated with the mcu formula. The batman is a masterpiece because it goes beyond the storytelling with biblical references( the flood scene reminds me of Moses and saving the slaves, which batman is doing but for how long until the promise land etc). Mcu has made kids nowadays not appreciate modern masterpieces or before ones. I guarantee that kids would like that the godfather is shit coz it’s too slow and has no ‘funny’ jokes
True. People have lost their taste.
Peple have watched too many children's movies so they act like children
Am I weird because I find the useless jokes ruin the experience? The Nolan Trilogy takes itself seriously, so therefore I'm able to take it seriously and believe it. So I'm engrossed. But if there's breaking of the 4th wall and constant jokes, I tune out
@@oliverford5367 no my friend people with taste agree with you
Scorsese is our cinematic dad. Kids get mad at their dad, and then they grow the hell up and apologize. You’ll visit him every Christmas and cherish as many of those moments until he gone.
Not my dad! Lol
scorsese is your dad? glad to know
No. He ain't my dad. Unless he's been to jail...
weirdo
You.. you found him😱
This aged like fine wine after the shit festival that was Phase 4. And Ant man quantumania starting the supposed phase 5 doesnt look much better. Marvel is in a grim state.
Films were more in depth and required somewhat attention to the entire movie and the characters. You can pick any time in a Marvel movie and just start mindlessly watching explosions and running. It's perfect for the attention span of the TikTok Twitch streaming generation.
A24 is keeping cinema alive in the midst of the ever growing mass produced cash grabs
John Doe A24 and NEON studios.
Andrew Guerra Anna Purna is doing great as well
Don't forget XYZ tho
And surprisingly netflix in producing films like roma and the irishman
A24 is doing creative risks and i love it.
A few months ago I went to a theatre (the first time since the pandemic started), to see 'The French Dispatch'. And it was kind of depressing to see almost every screen there taken up by 'The Eternals'. I saw TFD in the smallest screening room, with some others and enjoyed it. But I went home thinking, is everything non-Marvel/big franchise just going to disappear from cinemas altogether, or be regulated to small arthouse cinemas and/or online? I enjoy the MCU (well, up until Endgame and lost interest after that), but it shouldn't be taking up 80-90% of cinema screens. And that's the real point Scorsese is trying to make here imho. There's room for both types of movie--but on an equal level, and not one dominating the field over the other.
I agree with you, I enjoyed MCU until endgame. I realized IW was the last MCU movie I really enjoyed (NWH wasn’t bad either). We see so many movies trying to create expansive universes and become super action packed, superhero type movies, and witty humor every 2 minutes of the movie no matter the tone. I wouldn’t care if superhero films dominated the theaters if they were all unique and didn’t follow the cookie cutter formula.
if people wanna watch eternals then why would the theatres run another film, the theatre is just giving the audience what it wants, Disney aint forcing anyone to watch the films, the audience wanna watch some film, and if Disney or marvel make that film then that film is surely gonna run in the cinemas
@@anirudhgupta2570 well, they’re not giving them a lot of choice to begin with, and obv the big movies get way more promo bc they have a bigger budget for it. maybe they don’t wanna see french dispatch because they don’t know about it, and disney is doing everything possible to make sure they don’t know about it. Nightmare Alley was the next film in Guillermo Del fkn Toro’s filmography, right after a best picture and director win. Why was there absolutely NO promo for it? Why was there no buzz at all, it came and went with a whimper and didn’t get some traction going up until its oscar noms. Audiences are being conditioned through acquisitions and over-saturation of the market to enjoying lower quality, made by committee filmmaking. Its why when we do get an actual passion project, no one pushes themself to see it. They’re comfortable in their hyper quippy, lowest common denominator marvel world. I have GDT fans that follow his career loosely and they had no idea he even had a movie out last year.
For probably the millionth time, if his point was about market-share or distribution or anything else? Not a claim that other filmmakers’ work is worse than his or (depending on your personal definition of the word “cinema”) deserving of an entirely different medium label than his work based on his content or style preferences? He should have actually said that.
He made himself sound like an asshole for no reason because I agree with the idea that there’s market-share problems, distribution problems, a shame that people don’t watch serious film, some movies are better than other movies etc. etc.
But I won’t support anyone who declares their fellow creators’ work “not cinema”. I can’t.
It’s all about supply and demand, if very few people want to watch other movies and the majority want to watch superhero movies, then the majority of the theatres will show superhero films. They aren’t going to show something that loses the theatres money lol!
"Top Gun : Maverick" is the real slap to the face of MCU
of what a movie should really look + should feel like
This aged beautifully and horribly well
I'm a diehard Marvel fan, but he's right. You can't compare Avengers Infinity War to The Godfather. Both are films but thats basically the only similarity between the two. One relies entirely on character subtely and dialogue delivery while the other relies heavily on action set pieces and immersion. Both are amazing and great in there own ways. I think he could have phrased it better when he first said it but he explains it really well it the article.
It’s not fair to compare a more realistic film with a fictional epic action blockbuster and everyone knows it. And people act like blockbuster don’t rely on story and characters as much as well and that’s a lie.
@@petermj1098 I agree, especially the MCU has created great stories and characters. They should be given credit.
Actually, Infinity War is probably one of the only marvel movies that relies on its characters a lot to make it work, especially the antagonist. That's why it's so good and the best Marvel movie for me
@@Player-kg1ds yeah I agree but they rely on characters they have already built up and developed. Besides Thanos, the director/worters dont really have to focus on character development as much like other "Cinema"
@@VishtheFish101 I’m going to have to respectfully disagree because I believe Infinity War added a lot to the arc of these heroes.
It's not just "popcorn movie" vs whatever. The main difference with movies like MCU, Fast & Furious, etc, vs even other kinds of popcorn movies, is that the MCU is a shared, never ending universe. Where the rules are always changing, dead characters can be brought back, the good guys will eventually always win. There's no stakes as Scorsese says. It's not that they're bad movies or not, it's just that they are the height of commercialization, cross promotional entertainment. They are action figures brought to life. They are theme park rides.
So?
Yes, marvel movies are good, but sometimes it feels like the movie are made by business peoples fine tune it to rake as much watcher (profit) as they can, instead of made by genuine artists that have unique ideas to tell
Btw mcu is a insult to marvel..the way they portrayed hulk and thor is enough to explain
@@bibhutibhusansahoo5065 also they potrayed spider man
Spiderman was much better in sony marvel
@ashy disagreed. It is cinema.
There’s a purity to watching a film. It’s the artist trying to instill upon the audience certain thoughts or emotions or perspectives. It’s a very intimate experience.
Marvel films are selling you on the commodity of watching a film. It’s selling you on the “world” they’re trying to establish across a number of different films that each contribute to a larger whole. They’re banking on you coming back to see the next stretch of road they create across this highway. There’s no purity to this because this art has become a business, and that business is getting your butt in the seat.
I can see that point but this is what superhero comics have been doing forever, and this model is honestly the only way to adapt comics and stuff in a way that matches how they tend to work.
I think comics are way worse for this honestly. You cannot get into comics without being super confused throughout on account of not having read every single one of them.
Yeah who knew that Filmmaking is a business. I thought it was a charity.
In 200 years no one is going to be referencing Marvel in their Great Historical Cinema documentaries, unless it's about the ungodly amount of money they made.
How many martin Scorsese movies will ppl remember 200 years from now?
@@WL12643 of them
Phase 4 sucks, buzz off
quite a few actually@@WL1264
i actually started going to the movies just to watch indie and foreign films because im getting tired of blockbusters
Same. I'm literally just trying to save up money for indie films and mid-budget films but they come out so late. A lot of my most anticipated films like Jojo Rabbit, A Beautiful Day in The Neighbourhood, The Lighthouse, Richard Jewell, Parasite come out in January/Febuaray of next year and this is proving Scorseses point. They types of films are being pushed out of showings just for Blockbuster films like Stars Wars to hog screens for weeks due to Disney holding theatres hostage.
same here , those blockbusters are really mainstream and boring right now
Those blockbusters are just fluff with a “heartfelt” moment to make it special and to trick us that it’s good
I live in a small city and we don't have a cinema here, so I have to go to another city to watch the films I like, and most of the time they are only available for 1-2 weeks and I have to end up watching them online, while marvel and other big franchises are in cinemas for like 2 full months (sorry if my english is not great, it's nor my first language)
I'm doing the same thing for anime. I'm just tired of the same shit EVERY FRICKING TIME
I never really saw Martin Scorsese's comments as overly negative. I've had those same feelings, and even though the Marvel movies aren't absolutely atrocious, their is something lacking in them
Marvel films for me have mostly been either big boom or big bust. Either they create a thrill ride that keeps you on the edge of your seat, or they go off course, get muddled in other plot elements and drag down the whole story. And many of them are lacking something: a soul. This can be said for most other modern films as well. You mostly watch them, get entertained a couple hours, then move on and mostly forget them long term. They don't really leave a powerful lasting impression or thoughts on you. Compare that to Golden Age or even a few 90s films like Ben Hur, Shane, It's a Wonderful Life, Apollo 13, etc. Once you watch those, you remember them deeply, and they often stick with you for life. It's like Hollywood's literally forgetting how to do a masterpiece (which to me is alarming and tragic).
Marvel films lack creativity to tell a unique story each time, it’s the same formula every movie. Making a movie is to tell a story, making a movie is an art, and sadly 99% of films today are just made to make money and sell toys, not to tell a creative story.
@@russiankodiak6849 What's insane about that though is if they put greater emphasis on story and plot writing, some of the films would make TWICE as much at the box office, even the big franchise ones. What they're really doing is being lazy and doing stuff with as little effort as possible since many of the major studios don't have to compete much for revenue much these days (Disney is a near monopoly for example). Back in the Golden and even Silver Age, it was the Big 8 Studios in Hollywood: 20th Century Fox, Columbia Pictures, Disney, Metro Goldwyn-Mayer (MGM), Warner Bros., Universal, Paramount and United Artists. Disney as a family-aimed studio also had to compete with the second tier studios, such as Republic Pictures (who most notably had the HIGHLY popular Roy Rogers cowboy franchise). They had to work their butts off in the 40s, 50s and 60s to get their share of profit dollars. Now look at how pathetically bloated and controlling they are. No motivation to be creative or high quality at all.
@@thunderbird1921 you speaking straight facts
No soul or emotion just a group of set pieces then a finale
I couldn't agree more. I'm a bit shocked that this causes any surprise or outrage to anyone. My opinion is that what Scorsese means is that he loves when films transcend into an art form, and Marvel movies just do not. They are pure entertainment, which is fine and needed (I think).
In the film Tár there was a scene where Lydia watched an old documentary about music and it said something along the lines of "there are emotions that you can express with words, like hapiness, anger, sadness. But there are emotions that are so complex that you cannot put them into words and that's where music comes in". I feel like cinema has the same effect, where sometimes they leave you staring at a wall, not quite sure on how to express what you are feeling. Marvel movies are all about the thrill, they are manufactured to generate that. They are just not the same.
Do you feel the same way about Edgar right movies?
@@WL1264 I think I do, even though I really enjoy his movies.
@@azucar_ok what about stuff like back to the future? Indiana Jones?
i kinda felt this, going randomly to a theater and at least 80%-85% of the damn rooms were filled still with frigging thor love and thunder (last week), and everything else was pushed aside.
It’s also changed how people view and consume films. Viewers have grown accustomed to instant gratification, constant quippy humour, not letting the scene sit, and especially everything being explained to you immediately. I believe it’s genuinely affecting young peoples comprehension, attention span, patience, and ability to think something out. I’ve even starting noticing younger movie reactors on TH-cam skip to the end of the credits to check for a end-credit scene, MCU movie or not.
Maybe it's a reaction of the times we live in. The producers watched what the masses want and are giving the product back that the masses want. After all the target audience grew up on social media and that sort of thing.
I don't know how the first iron man movies were like or how the whole thing developed, but I tried to watch some of these last avengers movies and it was a non stop attack on the senses with those bad tasteful sarcastic quirks and one liners. It made me sad to understand people actually want that.
i don't think the mcu is a cause of this. a better conclusion would be that the widespread use of the internet as a whole has created this need for instant gratification, and the mcu is just a reaction to this change.
omg I hate that quippy humor Marvel does. its so painfully unfunny and as cringe as it comes. its why I prefer DC films. they dont do that shit as often and make more serious films like Joker or the new Batman where its not about the superhero so much as its trying to tell a story
@@randomguy4781 I disagree I enjoy their quip and jokes however I do agree to Martin.
@@Vapor817 I agreed.
Martin knows what he's talking about. His movies are dramatically compelling works of art while Marvel franchise movies are more visual spectacles of themes with lots of green screen and special effects.
Everything should be in balance.
Either they are enjoyable fantasy movies or cinema
Yeah, especially Wolf from Wall Street. Such a deep and dramatically compelling piece of art😭👏👏👏👏
Even so marvel CGI has been downgraded due to their greed
He's Martin Scorsese fgs of course he knows what he's talking about
Funny thing is Scorsese used green screen and visual effects too for his movies (The Wolf of Wall Street especially) but his story still has an artistic merit to it unlike Marvel
I tried having this discussion with franchise fans. It all boils down to : they think people who dont like the mcu or the likes are pompous pretentious snobs.
But I think thats a narrowminded opinion to this subject, and I think they need to see great cinema. But great cinema is an acquired taste (these days) because it requires something of the viewer.
They probably are snobs actually along with the MCU being shit.
I mean, alot of them are pompous snobs tho.
Ironically, it's usually the marvel fanboys in my experience who are the snobbiest out of everyone.
@@thelemurofmadagascar9183 yeah right, except that aint true.
@@projekttaku1 Yeah, except it is. Live in denial if you'd like. Makes no difference to me.
Isn't the genre he's trying to distinguish called Pulp Fiction? It's always been there, it's just shinier now.
Scorsese liked Spider-Man from Sam Raimi. Because Raimi (and Nolan, obviously) is a true filmmaker, with an artistic vision for the hero.
Even some directors like Zack Snyder and David Ayer took notes from Christopher Nolan and make their own creativity.
People are just oblivious
They are also very far above the MCU movies but sadly not nearly as dark or powerfully written as the 70's comic books.
"Joker" is basically "Taxi Driver" with Joaquin Phoenix painting his face.
@@andrewomahony9260 we don't talk about that
Who will win - A revolutionary, passionate filmmaker who is a master of his craft or One Big Rat Boi?
According to numbers, The Rat
Uncanny Spector Can’t beat Rat Boi... too op
@tyler norton cuz hes an old fart, hes glory days are in the past, and he is jealous
tyler norton He’s just a butt-hurt old dude and no one should take him seriously anymore
@@CoyoteWill664 Let me explain to you simply. Because you are obviously simple. His movies are and will be remembered in 60 years, marvel movies won't be. Period.
This aged like Wine
Explain
I actually want to thank Scorsese for his quote and the buzz it made across social media. His statement stirred up a discussion and that led to many articles and videos such as this one. I was a major Marvel fan and still am, but I was ignorant and oblivious to the art of films and cinema. I took the advice of Thomas Flight to expand my film pallette as the movies I predominantly watched weren't as "artistic". Fast forward 2 years later, here I am being a fan of cinema, and personally straying away from MCU movies as I definitely prefer my favourite films now, namely La La Land, The Grand Budapest Hotel, Dune, Drive, Marriage Story, Parasite, and so on. So to whoever who is saying that this video would not change people's perspective on this debate or topic, I would disagree from personal experience. Thank you, Thomas Flight.
sounds pretentious to me.
@@projekttaku1 whatever it may be, I'm grateful
@@dominicwong3604 okay.
Damn, I didn't even think people like that even existed. How old are you, brother? No offense, though. I don't mean to belittle or anything like that. Congratulations to going beyond that state.
This has been explained well by Matt Damon in his recent interview on Hot Ones. Studios used to be able to make back their losses with DVD revenue so they could afford the risk to let filmmakers make the film they want. But now with films being widely available online after release on BluRay, studios are only willing to fall back on safe bets such as these blockbuster films with a proven formula but don't dare to go outside of this formula to make something truly special which are the films the Scorsese is talking about.
I think it's due to movies having too big of a budget (which I suspect is for money laundering as F8 and Black Panther look like shit and don't justify their budgets at all). If you're spending that much money and don't get it back you'll go bankrupt whereas if budgets instead of being $200 mil were more like $20-40 mil I think movies would be taking more risks and doing more experimentation. The 2010s are undeniably the worst decade for movies and hopefully the 2020s can serve as a course correction although I'll hold my breath on that one for now.
I'm not a superhero movie fan, but I went to watch Avengers: Endgame with my friends mainly because I wanted to see the movie. For 2 and a half hours, everyone was shouting and being loud I couldn't even focus on it. It's really like a theme park
Well thats your cinema's problem for not telling people to stfu
Not that i'm blaming you just saying
sama here.i was already forced to watch Black Widow😆
Well that's kinda expected isn't it? People waited for years for this movie, it's only natural for people to be excited for this movie
@@johnpaulmacaraeg1677 yeah its like a superbowl tho people just screaming. thats the difference with a scorsese movie where nobody is saying anything because they are so captivated by whats unfolding on screen
A theme park where hundreds of smart phones populate the darkened theater like stars in the sky and answering a call is de rigueur (don't even think of complaining).
I don’t know if anyone else has noted this yet but in the montage you did something stuck out to me: Marvel has a lack of quiet. It’s one of those things you only notice when you expand your movie palette but there’s few moments where a Marvel film just sits still and let’s itself breathe without having to throw in a joke or an action scene.
Take for example Inglourious Basterds where a lot of that movie is people talking or planning something but the plot is still moving forward or Martin Scorsese’s masterpiece The Departed which is also a lot of talking with some action but still really engaging vs something like Thor: Love and Thunder which is just jokes being thrown at you every 30 seconds but feels like there’s barely a plot.
And you can make a more restrained superhero film without becoming self-serious or boring like what Batman v Superman from. Also this one’s kind of obvious but the lack of good cinematography, color grading and lighting in Marvel movies doesn’t help.
Like it’s okay to take a moment to breathe and space the action out.
it's like in the batman or dark knight trilogy. both have great action and a lot of talking but it doesn't get boring because things still happen and especially in the batman, the cinematrography is really good. the action hits harder when it's set up properly, otherwise it's just visual noise without any context, impact or emotion.
@salty_3k506 Finally someone else who understands what's wrong with the issue of filmography pandering to "the culture of fandom" and being overly reliant on member berries to carry a 90+ minute movie.
The more movies marvel pumps out the more I agree with him.
He’s not lying. The moment I saw Tom Hanks on Apple TV, was the moment I realized the battle has officially been lost. Tom Hanks is a cinema legend. Martin is a cinema legend, yet his work is on Netflix. The battle has been lost. Movie theaters will soon, only show action packed adventure movies. “The fault in our stars,” got a movie a few years ago. However, “looking for Alaska,” -a better book- got shipped to Hulu.
A valid outlook, but Hanks' new movie in a streaming service was understandable at best. No one is risking watching a movie in the most coldest venue you can get. Marty on the other hand just wants financing, and no studio approached him until Netflix came in.
no "battle" has been lost. everything in the world goes through an evolution. cinema isn't any different. it's not fair to discredit great films simply because theyre debuting on streaming services
No. The battle was lost when a film starring both Leo DiCaprio and Brad Pitt lost in the box office to a beat-for-beat cgi remake of The Lion King.
I wouldn't say that. Movie theaters will always show these kinds of movies. Look at 2019: Parasite, 1917, the lighthouse, jojo rabbit, uncut gems, etc. Thought provoking movies with good messages will always have a place in theaters.
Looking for Alaska was much better off as a series, though.
Hes not wrong tho, most of marvels movies have been b movies wth A budgets
..................Justice league,....John Carter...mortal engines................Transformers.........The Lone Ranger......Green Lantern.....had...TONS AND TONS OF MILIONS budget and was crap..................
there are not bad or good genres......there are good and bad movies
@@marioskosmidhs9454 You list some other shitty movies and franchises to prove Marvel isn't shit? It's just as shit as everything you mentioned.
@@WhoopsieDayZ no he sad they where shit
Why are we pretending marvel invented the blockbuster?
@Kelly name the points you got from watching scorsese pictures
fine wine.
I think my main problem is that that marvel movies aren’t necessarily good or bad, but with how popular they’ve gotten, it’s almost an instant guaranteed money maker. And now instead of trying to tell a compelling story, disney can just keep making movies they know people are going to see no matter what. They aren’t going to flop, they are always going to play it safe, and they are always going to make money because of the brand name associated with these movies. And because they make up 90% of the movies shown in theaters, eventually they will only grow and put smaller, more risky films on the back-burner. If this continues the only movies that are going to be made will be marvel movies, and while these movies aren’t necessarily bad, having a balance between different genres and types of movies is incredibly important.
Scorsese right about his statement, this isn't a cinema. İt feels like long run tv show.
That's it! Exact same thoughts
@Straight Busta you mean game of thrones yeah it feels like game thrones
While Scorsese has a point, Marvel never claimed to be dramatic films.
@@DrBell-sl5et agreed their main business is action, not drama.
serkan kalyoncu doesn’t make it any less of a film
"Marvel movies" are like those Multiplayer only games that we enjoy playing
"Cinema movies" are like single player only, indie-like, traditional gameplay games that we enjoy worshipping
Ehh I guess I can get behind that.
@@kalazakan lol no
@@kalazakan thats not it
Dude that's right!!!!!!
@@kalazakan You just completely missed the point.
This video has aged like fine wine
This interview age like a wine and even more relevant now.
I feel like in watching MCU films, I can't even think for myself. The films shown under cinema here all give the viewer time to think, to engage, and to feel. I don't think a single film in the MCU franchise has ever done the same for me. I am always constantly happy or engaged in the excitement, but there is no true emotional touchstone.
This is a good description: they basically overload you with stupid jokes and endless fight scenes intermixed with some dialouge, at a very fast pace.
Nope
You are delusional
@@cringekiller348 youre are men
Doctor Strange 1 kinda moves away from the formula, but only slightly.
I would agree with your statement in a lot of the formulaic films Disney Marvel has been churning out, but I will say it’s a pity that this video cites Captain America: Winter Soldier as simply action packed and no character. That film is a Political Thriller with very emotional character driven conflicts (between Cap & Bucky mainlu). I actually teared up during the final confrontation & I think it was more of an old tragedy set in a modern film. But, of course Scorsese has a point with the typical Marvel Clusterfuque fight scenes being a completely different beast than the original films that drove him to develop his craft.
Annnnnd… w/ a movie that is basically copy & paste of Scorsese past work, it could only succeed today by having a popular comic book character that people already like, produced by a huge corporation. I’m talking about Joker, for those who don’t know.
Marvel has made me realize how much I appreciate films with good storylines. I love not being able to guess what’s going happen at the end of the film. MCU has made me more interested in watching all the Scorsese films I have not watched it.
Lmao, that's your opinion kid.
I agree, as much as I do enjoy some marvel films, it seems to be the same stuff. I don't hate the mcu, not jumping on the bandwagon but I feel it gets a little too much.
True, Marvel was my introduction to films, today I don't mind watching black and white films from the 20th century
@@Never_GamePlayZ He didn't express his opinion so much on the MCU. He just said MCU has made him appreciate good story telling. Calm down
@@Never_GamePlayZ u are trying to hard ..
For me, life is too short to spend it watching Marvel/Star Wars films and TV shows.
Well said!
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We need another new wave in Hollywood like they had in the late 60s. Id love films for grown ups again. Character studies, good comedy and satire, slower films too.
Especially slower paced movies because modern-day movies, especially action movies, suffer too hard from having ADHD pacing.
I love your comment, BTW. I really wish all that stuff returned to the mainstream.
@@rustyshackelford4224 Thanks. My favourite era of Hollywood is the 60s and 70s
@@benfisher1376 How come?
The fact that this guy just shuts up and lets us grasp the concept and make our own conclusion while showing different scenes is priceless.
Yeah by showing scenes from different movies that have next to nothing in common with entirely different context and sometimes not even in the same act. Yes very honest to compare the climaxe of a movie to a mid movie scene of characters talking. Wow this banana is not like a pepper I am very smart.
There are no scenes in any UCM movie, that equiparates in any aspect to the Scorsese scenes in this video.
@@tarotxiii9830 Did you even read his pinned comment? He said he did that to purposely exaggerate his point and to show what’s at the heart of those films. Not like your tiny mind would know.
@@GomerCranjis So comparing apples to chicken is fine and justified because hyperbolic. Ok...
@@tarotxiii9830 It's really not that hyperbolic. His comparison is just showing what's at the very center of each type of film. In other words, the main reason people go to see these kinds of movies.
With "cinema", people go to see them because they want to see good art. The dramatic and human moments between characters. Some sort of thematic depth and substance, something that challenges them and makes them think or feel a certain way about a human topic.
With the MCU, people don't care about art, they just go to cheer at explosions while munching on popcorn, it really is like being at a theme park and not much else. You and I both know that's true.
Either way hes Martin Scorcese he can say whatever the hell he wants.
gems like such comment deserve more attention
Toxic Broadcaster I hate comments like this why would we excuse bad ideas because the person that said them is respected that makes no sense.
@@mccauleypeeler1525 It's not a bad idea tho... What he's saying is correct....
I thought Scorcese's movie Hugo had a very cartoonish quality to it, much like a superhero movie, I stilled enjoyed it.
@@rgsxyz1105 That's because Hugo was based off a children's book
I thought it was interesting that I could name lots of the independent films shown but I forgot the names of the marvel films
3 years later watching this video makes me realize that, maybe, people and even marvel fans in general are starting to agree with martin scorsese. after 10 years of this type of movie, i'm getting a feeling people are tired. marvel is doing the same thing it always has, but it's not hitting the same buttons anymore. that's not to say it's getting better, since any "franchise" movie or show that lets the scenes sit, has more slow emotional moments as the climax etc are being labeled as "boring" and "a failure". so people in general are still too used to the instant gratification and spectacle of marvel movies, but i think it's an improvement that at least we're starting to think that is not enough.
Same thing? She hulk was bad. But it's different tho?
Funny how people still get riled up about this quote Marty said two years ago while he's busy filming Killers of the Flower Moon.
Man just lives and breathes cinema. Has done all his life.
Oh damn. I didn’t realize they adapted that book. Wonderful read.
@@kylemurray3526 Production just began only last month or so. Really looking forward to this one.
@@bmabs35 Me too! Interested to see how they produce it!
@@bmabs35 I think Leo DiCaprio is gonna be in it. I mean no surprise, Scorsese always calls Leo DiCaprio for his movies lol
I thought the early 2000’s comic book films would not fit the mole of “circus” marvel films. They were action packed, but the focus of those films were mainly on the characters and their intentions.
Especially the spider-man trilogy and dark knight trilogy. Each movie felt emotional and focused on the character themselves. There was stakes in those movies. When the first spider-man had green goblin die, I was shocked on how realisic it was.
@@toonytomas762 exactly those two trilogies are gold..
Also, the good thing about the 2000s superhero movies, were that they atleast tried to be good self-containing stories, and nothing else. Modern Marvel movies are always about expanding some kind of universe and building up to something greater, which just kind of makes the individual movies feel less exciting, when you know they're only there to build up one character for a new movie coming up. It also removes all stakes.
I still consider the Captain America movies as good for the same reasons, I don't think they ever lose focus even when there's 12 characters on screen and their a diamond in the rough among the admittedly shallow and hit and miss marvel stuff.
I loved the original spider man movies even gave the amazing spiderman a try. Nearly every batman movie. Up until Ben affleck. My problem isn't with super hero movies. It's the way they are made. They are just so phony. I could never suspend my disbelief. Too many backgrounds that aren't real. No practical effects. No cinematography. There no substance. To me it's just one climax after another. Scorese were the equivalent to a love story. These CGI movies are just 5 min pornhub videos. Just about getting your nut off every 10 seconds.
He was correct. In many more ways than one.
Taxi Driver, Days of Heaven, Barry Lyndon, The Tree of Life….all cinematic masterpieces. Excellent examples to include in this great video essay👌
i really like the mcu, and i completely agree with him. movies like the outsiders, dead poets society, the breakfast club, lost in translation, the royal tenenbaums, the beauty and the beast, and the grand budapest hotel made me fall in love with ‘cinema,’ and you can’t feasibly compare marvel to any of those.
those movies stay in your mind forever but as soon as I walk out from a MCU movie I instantly forget it.
Marvel is drivel. Truly the bottom of the barrel in storytelling, character development, DIALOGUE, and even the actors are terrible. Demand better
Except that NONE of those is cinema. Cinema IS moving pictures, not endless boring shot with dialog. Remember for the first years of cinema it was silent with ALL action and ZERO dialog. The first cinema were Train Pulling Into Station, The Great Train Robbery. Where is all the character development and dialog in THOSE pictures. I would say the Marvel movies are a RETURN to pure cinema, which has ALWAYS been about ACTION and movement over dialog and character
@@StinkyWizleteets language changes as society changes. That's why English in Shakespeare's time is different to modern English. This applies to terms and definitions
Why do people consider the breakfast club to be good cinema? I’m genuinely asking. Like, what is special about it? Not trying to be rude, I’m truly curious
I feel like everybody’s being a bit too immature. People on Martin’s side are saying things like “You’re too stupid to comprehend real masterpieces” and people on Marvel’s side are saying “Martin Scorsese is jealous and artsy fartsy films are boring.” Artistic films are great films and when these films are at their best, whether you agree or not, are magnum opuses and masterpieces. But with that being said, Marvel movies (and superhero movies for that matter) are also great movies, they’re all fun and enjoyable to the mass market and their made to be fun. Comparing the two would be like comparing fine red wine to punchy orange juice, wine is more refined and high class but orange juice can be enjoyed by anyone and is more leisurely. Just because red wine has a distinct and sophisticated taste doesn’t mean that it’s better than orange juice and just because orange juice is more widespread and generalised doesn’t make it better than red wine.
Artistic films are excellent and they’re more narratively driven than any blockbuster or action film out there but be real if you think that only these films are worth watching and everybody else watching other types of films set in different genres are ignorant then you’re just being pretentious and ignorant yourself. The Mona Lisa is a masterpiece but it’s not the only masterpiece out there and other masterpieces shouldn’t be judged solely on the Mona Lisa. The MCU is, whether you admit it or not, successful and for good reason, they’re fun action flicks that are designed to be accessible to everyone. The best MCU movies go even beyond that, movies like the Avengers and Infinity War are popcorn films sure but they both tell good stories and have thematic significance within the world their taking place in. But MCU films aren’t the be all end all standard of cinema. Just because a film doesn’t follow the same three act superhero structure that a Marvel film has doesn’t mean that they’re in any way bad. And they aren’t the best films either, some of them are bland or just plain suck, Iron Man 2, Age of Ultron, Thor Dark World. Not all of them hit the mark. Judging both types of films on each other’s differing standards would be completely superfluous. Both have their share of highlights and both have their share of bad eggs.
The problem of today’s movies doesn’t lie in the fact that MCU movies exist. The problem is that EVERY sing film has to be part of a cinematic universe now. The DCEU, the Dark Universe, the Star Wars Universe, and now the fucking Valiant Comics Universe. All of them feel like copy-pasted Marvel movies. Not to mention that Disney is basically trying to monopolise the film industry or at least the Hollywood Industry. That’s where people like Martin are coming from. Personally I’m on board with Martin to an extent. It’s kinda frustrating to see that almost every single film that comes out has to be a marvel film essentially. And that’s not even including all of the LGBT controversy and how some recent MCU rottentomatoes scores are speculated to be bought. I don’t like the MCU personally but I disagree with Martin in saying that they aren’t films, everybody likes a good rollercoaster ride every now and then. But good God imagine if in every amusement park, every single ride was the exact same roller coaster.
Why does this comment only have 8 likes ffs, this is the only reasonable comment in this section
@@thespiritofjonathanjoestar6805 because it was too long to read
finally someone with common sense
best underrated comment I've seen so far
up
People are entitled to like whatever movie they like however they like. There's room for everyone