The Most Common Takedown in Wrestling (BJJ -77kg ADCC Analysis Part 1)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2023
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In preparation for ADCC, jiu jitsu athletes put a huge emphasis on wrestling. I analyzed the data from the -66kg and -77kg divisions of ADCC. You would think the heavier the competitors the more wrestling would be important. Turns out that is not the case. We review the data and discuss the most common takedown in the sport of wrestling.
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Purple belt breakdown...Don't hate - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Could it be that games of smaller guys tend to develop differently because in bjj gyms you roll with everyone. If people exclusively trained with people their weight class, the tactics in the divisions might not be as drastically different
that’s a god damn thesis
@@bed7496 thanks. I think it is a huge advantage wrestlers have. Competition specificity
Very very interesting
Of course. This is why on average smaller guys are also more technically skilled than heavyweights. Small guys are forced to learn techniques that work REGARDLESS of their weight, while big guys can manage most of their training doing things that work BECAUSE of their weight. Yea there are outliers (like Gordon Ryan), but we see this essentially in every combat sport that the lower weight classes show greater all around skill
@@HardNut97 in general I agree. But it's not as simple as being more technical vs less technical. Also, sometimes what is perceived as "more technical" is actually due to different movement capabilities. It's like wilks score in powerlifting. You can't compare across weight classes
I think as you move up weight classes the emphasis on getting the top position becomes more critical.
Yeah I am thinking this as well but we will see
Yes, the impact of gravity on the game will change based on weight
What about Gordon Ryan
@@sweetio he is an exception to many rules. That being said his match against Peña was largely a stand up battle if memory serves.
@@jongrappler287 because pena is also a bottom player and its easier to pass after a takedown
Always the best videos on TH-cam. So helpful and informative. Uplifting and inspiring videos every time. 👊you are the best!
Thank you! Appreciate it 👊🏼
Footsweeps are my go to move gi and no gi. Learn how to defend wrestling but attack with off balances and foot sweeps. Less cardio demands less risk less wear and tear. And they look pretty cool
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would love to see videos like this on all the weight classes (also +99), think they are really intresting!
Slowly working my way there! I am glad you are finding them helpful!
Can't stress this enough... these videos are AMAZING!! You have a gift...
Thank you! Appreciate the support!
This video flowed super well man, lovely content as usual
Thank you! I appreciate the comment. I put a lot of thought into this one so thank you for noticing!
Could it be that it’s not that the “offensive” nor the “defensive” person who scores the takedown, but rather the person who is just better on their feet? Meaning, I could score a takedown in a match then later defend that same opponent’s takedown attempt ending up on top in both instances giving each category a +1 in stats… Instead of framing the discussion as offensive vs defensive attacks the data may be showing that it’s simply important to have sound offense AND defense from the feet. Just like when on the ground.
Yeah, that's a good point. The more proficient you are across the board, the more likely you are to win.
Yeah great point! Data is useful but there is limitations
@Less Impressed More Involved BJJ
So maybe the way you present and draw conclusions from this data is wrong? And maybe people should invest on wrestling, but just maybe focus nit solely on offensive skills?
@@raweriio3306 This was my thought as well. My big question (that may have been addressed and I missed) is what are we counting as successful in a takedown attempt? If I initiate a takedown and get him to the floor and score points that's obvious. But what about when, through nuance of the rules, I get him down and end up on top but scored no points? What about when I initiate and get to his back standing? Or cause him to burn a ton of energy defending? Or if he decides to quit the standup and sit as a result of not liking his chances of engaging on the feet? What about when we engage, both end up on the ground (similar to double guard pull) but I end up in a better position like a superior leg entanglement?
I think this is a huge point. I know at my gym I’m a better wrestler than about 90% of the guys but I don’t just go out and shoot take downs I try to bait guys into take shots and counter it gives me easy looks at their neck in front head locks and I can easily chase the back.
These analysis videos are crazy interesting! Please keep it up, bro!
Thanks I am glad you are enjoying them. Many more to come!
Great work as usual my friend! Definitely going to be borrowing your data and taking a closer look and applying it to myself and teammates 💪
Awesome! I am glad you are finding the videos helpful! One team one dream 👊🏼
Excellent work !!!
Thank you 🙌🏼
Phenomenal editing!
Thank you for noticing! I appreciate the comment!
this is gold, great video
🙌🏼 thank you!
great video thank you
Thank you! I am glad you found it helpful!
He did still run into my Guillotine in a couple more seconds 😁 great video 👏❤️
Haha editing is a beautiful thing 🙃 thanks Ben! Keep doing your thing! Love watching g you compete!
Love your channel.
Thank you!
I laughed so hard when you revealed the takedown success stat for 77kg! As a proud butt scooter it makes me so happy! 😂 will you release an infographic for 77kg like you did for 66? Thanks
😂 😂 😂 it surprised me and I was excited to share that stat.
I don’t think I am going to make another infographic but I have bigger and better things planned. Stay tuned 🙌🏼
"It's easier to defend than attack" and "BJJ people do suck at wrestling" - Me, a D1 Black Belt.
All jokes aside, Singles and sweep singles are the most effective and safest in general. If you really wanna screw with people learn the Overcollar series that most people (even wrestlers) don't know or use properly. Easy to setup singles and quick back takes plus it's very heavy on their head and will gas them quicker. Technique video - th-cam.com/video/HOKUUIhXlb4/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/alE89qZVS5s/w-d-xo.html
Haha truth!
Ah very nice. Yeah it seems like having a good snap down is a prerequisite for a lot of things! Thanks for sharing the video and the insights
@@LIMIBJJ I'd guess about 85% of all wrestling exchanges are initiated off some sort of collar tie and a good snap will set up better shots and/or more favorable chain wrestling.
🔥 as always! All professional sports coaches are heavily influenced by analytics! This is such valuable information, thank you for breaking it down!
Also very curious if there’s any break down in the takedown data upper body style takedowns vs shooting singles and doubles.
Upper body style seems to give you a lot more options to safely enter ground positions, very low risk of guilly’s, highly effective at landing in a dominant position. Just curious!
Appreciate all the work!
Thank you! I am working on collecting that data now. Having to watch a lot of boring hand fighting to get there haha
Alot of times when the fight starts theres alot of hand fighting and jockying for position but i rarley see guys take advantage of doubles and singles and i always wondered why it just never made sense but its good to see guys using their wrestling cuz 20 mins of handfighting is so boring
And their hand fighting is almost as bad as their wrestling.
True that
This channel is a top reason i can never quit using TH-cam
🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼 thank you for the support!
Not sure why Jiu Jitsu starts off teaching wrestling with a single or double leg. It needs to start with front headlock defense and getting up from turtle/referee position.
This is the way!
Number one take down in wrestling by percentage is to sprawl off a shot and take the back or side control as you stated
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Just wanted to point out that anaconda is misspelled as anacanda. Great work, can't wait to see part 2. (like)
Oh shoot haha my spelling is awful! Thanks for this!
lololol that last shot of Gordon Ryan man.
🤠
Great video sent this to my buddy whos trains also had a alot of experience wrestling and even coaching wrestling.
He enjoyed the video and mentioned that jujitsu guys tend to be lacking on the scrambles and that chain wrestling also includes the scramble after the takedown. He also said this is a benifit of greco and freestyle as they often lead to side mount or back takes. That said he mentioned folkstlyle is the most common style taught so it might be a knowledge gap.
Interesting thank you for spreading the word and sharing the insights!
These videos are excellent. I have point of clarification I need to bring up! I appreciate the analysis in this video, however I didn’t detect a clear declaration of the exact takedown in question. Is the “takedown” in question just the emphasis on getting to the back?
I hope you build up these stat oriented breakdown videos for each weight class. Identifying trends is tremendously important. I love these videos!
I am glad you are enjoying the videos. The "takedown" in question is sprawling and spinning to the back. According to Danaher this was the most popular "takedown" in college wrestling
@@LIMIBJJ Thank you for clarifying.
Additionally, Danaher also did a survey analysis of freestyle wrestling (separate rule set from college/folkstyle) and concluded that the single leg, and single leg transition to the back were the most unanimous across the ruleset.
This is not to the detriment of the statements by Danaher recorded here, just another layer if you will of the nuances in the different kinds of wrestling.
One thing that I believe may be of note in considering folkstyle/collegiate wrestling is the much higher prevalence of stalling calls for lack of action. College wrestlers can’t dilly dally much at all without getting a warning or penalty and since no one can sit down and force the top player to approach them, they have to maintain a much higher volume of shots to stay “active” in the eyes of ref.
In BJJ, the concept of waiting for your opponent to shoot means waiting for someone who may or may not be a wrestler and will not have the added immediate fear of a penalty that two wrestlers would have in a college match (although a penalty could come down eventually) - you could end up waiting for a long time, maybe thats your game. Its just important to consider when deciding on a strategy.
@lessimpressedmoreinvolved your data collection is going to hit an exponential point of return if/when you can analyze the same metrics across all weight categories. Identifying the trends is paramount in importance when considering the best route to take across the “ocean of jiu jitsu”.
A better way of look at this is about who achieves top position first and do they win. I would argue that defending takedowns is a wrestling skill and if you initiate a takedown and get countered that its because the other guy was a better wrestler.
Yeah I am tracking that now and am interested to see the results!
Honestly no Gi should just be called submission wrestling or submission grappling.
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You have so smart approach to bjj. This is a gamechanger. You are the nexta Danaher 😂
I'll thank you after I win something big 😂
Go get it 👊🏼
It would be interesting to see the percentage of arm in guillotine and high elbow guillotine
That would be interesting
Is the dataset you're using for these analysis available? I'd love to do some analysis for myself too
I am currently working on making it available! Stay tuned!
Also brings up the perpetual problem of street vs sport. Takedowns at the highest level of the sport may not be as effective but they're critical for street 🤔
True that
Hey can you analyse MMA grappling as well
Right now I have my plate full with jiu jitsu stuff but maybe in the future
Wen part two I need it
Next Tuesday! About to be 🔥
I need part 2
Haha sorry to do that to you! Working on it now!
Wait are we talking about 77kg division now? I'd love to see some more stats on my chonky bros
Yeah! In part 2 I am going to share some more. I am working on it now. What are you hoping to see?
Gotta learn the defense.
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part 2!!!!!!
It is here!!! th-cam.com/video/MMNPGGnkOcU/w-d-xo.html
From my own study to mitigate risk i feel foot sweeps and slide bys and any take town from having upper body control. underook ect. Just shooting for the legs in bjj at a high level just hi risk.
True that!
Danaher talks about this. Getting back position, and front head are the highest percentaged ways to get takedowns. Focusing on underhook series, front head snap downs and counter wrestling is key.
Bjj people just shoot bad shots from far distances. Study Greco
@@ola_eboda true that, I’ve seen wrestlers get to the legs efficiently because their technique and timing is super sound. We need wrestlers to teach guys who want to learn to get that timing and technique sound if not I’d suggest upper body clinch. Because learning half ass technique from a bjj guy with second hand wrestling usually is bad
Im guessing at one point you'll make a video for the highest percentage path to subs per division?
Right now I am just tracking the path to the back and will see how that plays out through the division, but yes. In the future I plan to expand on this quite a bit
@@LIMIBJJ Im here for it
It might just be comment bait (in which case good job) but you keep saying for people not to learn wrestling at the expense of jujitsu but you’re wrong and don’t seem to know what wrestling is. It’s not just takedowns. It’s balance, positioning, timing and mastery of pressure placement. As a white belt giving up 40lbs to my opponents, I could halt all non leg entanglement advances from brown and black belts and could exert enough top pressure maintain dominant position (side control and mount ) that if it were a fight I’d have destroyed these black belts and if it were a competition I was up points enough to stall them out and win by transitioning from pinning positions so long as they didn’t tap me. Wrestling is a MUST. Not just for bjj but for all combat athletes. A bjj guy with even just good MID level wrestling is a monster and a hard time for anyone.
For sure there are important aspects of wrestling that your outlined beautifully here. I was just shocked at the standup statistics that I found
This is an interesting take but I don't think you could make any reliable assumptions based on one weight class over one event. The sample size is just too small.
True that. Working my way up the ladder!
Really loving these breakdowns, but was wondering if you'd consider running your data through some sort statistical analysis? I think that would really add gravity to your claims.
dont think he knows how
Statistical analysis typically is used for explaining large data sets across time. The small sample size of 2022 ADCC would not show the kinds of statistical inference you’re thinking of because you would have to show it from year-to-year. The problem is that the 2019 and 2017 tournaments are not very relevant in such a fast-changing BJJ game. If you look back on ADCC 2015 for example you’ll probably have a good laugh at how simple it looks. It’s like comparing the early UFC days to the current decade of MMA. Not directly comparable.
What type of statistical analysis do you think would be most helpful?
@@watermelontreeofknowledge8682 You have truly dropped some knowledge here you wise watermelon tree!
@@LIMIBJJ Its tricky because I think you would need to recode the data to something like "Match Ended in RNC: Yes/No" or "Takedown resulted in victory: Yes/No" for all the both the -66kg and -77kg data and then run an independent Chi^2 test to determine if the difference in outcome is a result of the weight class. Not an expert in this, was just wondering if this is something you considered :).
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"66kg guys have skinny arms"
As a 60kg guy, that one cut deep.
My arms aren't skinny :c
😂
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Bjj needs to implement wrestlings runout rules and passivity rules. Noones forced to engage so they just slap each other until someone sits down. Like watching paint dry this sport.
I 100% love foot sweeps and upper body takedowns right now. Ive come to prefer judo to wrestling.
Kinda feel like this is the obvious answer to navigating around the Guillotine problem.
I think the major issue is that Judo has the narrative spun around it that it’s “for” Gi only when… it’s really not. But it’s also true that, in the U.S. at least, there are tons of good wrestling coaches. Very few good Judo coaches who aren’t also too busy with, ya know, Judo.
Somewhere in the mix too is that Judo throws are, on average, a bit harder to learn, imo. A lot of BJJ gyms hardly devote enough time to get a single leg functional-which is a fairly accessible throw even if has a lot of nuance at higher levels. Just pick up leg and turn. Whereas in Judo you can learn some of the fundamental stuff like O Soto Gari and go a very, very long time without it doing jack in live sparring. I just feel like most BJJ places aren’t going to drop that kind of time nor are more casual hobbyists going to accept the degree of singular focus/patience it would take to craft a stand up profile that is more Judo-based.
@@fennec812 Judo isn't used in wrestling because the moves are higher risk. There are judo kids who are successful at a high level but by college the coaches will make them focus on higher percentage lower risk stuff. This might not matter as much in BJJ where ending up on your back doesnt have to be a bad thing but just go with a higher percentage move if youre trying to take someone down. If youre the rare exception funky freak that can make it work go with it though.
@@towardstar That’s not particularly accurate. You can go watch a compilation of Jason Morris foot-sweeping wrestlers over on DPS Breakdown in a wrestling format. O Soto and especially Uchi Mata do get used in wrestling as well. Kata Guruma is also shared in wrestling.
What is “high percentile” is typically just what is trained most. Back takes and leg attacks are just what wrestling spends the most time on and what is typically most rewarding for that grappling format, and that’s fine. But even if you look at the leg attack era of Judo, an overwhelming number of the takedowns weren’t single, doubles, or ankle picks. If these techniques were “inherently” better, they’d have naturally floated to the top in usage, but they never did.
It just boils down to training, good tutelage, and time. In the particular case of this video, though, technically what is being demonstrated is that these takedowns *aren’t* very high percentile in BJJ because they keep resulting in Guillotines. Hence why Judo techniques, which don’t typically expose the neck, are one solution.
But really the whole “high percentile” thing isn’t a particularly robust way to look at techniques anyway. It has its uses, but it’s a super limited way to analyze techniques. You can look at successful usage rates to tell you about trends in a meta, but that’s really all it tells you. It *suggests* that those techniques are good, but could also be explained by those takedowns being the ones most coaches in the sport know the best or might be one that people just learn faster. It also suggests that all takedowns of a given type are roughly the same. An Uchimata done by a short-limbed, stiff dude with just standard coaching on it is going to be far “lower percentile” than someone who is lanky, flexible, and is coached by Maruyama or Shohei on how to do it. Usage and success percentages for takedowns are worth looking at, but they are far from the whole story. If people want Judo to be as “high percentile” as whatever other takedown, it’s just a matter of time, practice, and finding the right teacher.
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@@fennec812 Foot sweeps have been part of wrestling I learned them in high school and you can find much older material of them being used. I don't necessarily disagree about certain moves being functional despite some consensus against them but someone still has to prove its wide applicability you can't just assume that there is a hidden potential that coaches just don't understand.
i hate leglocks aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
The worst!
For your support of countering being the highest percentage you showed collegiate athletes taking bad shots. Two were horribly bad shots that I would’ve scolded my 9 year old for and the third was a good shot but he then continued driving forward instead of changing angles so it was a technical failure but mechanically solid. Bad shots is the reason counter wrestling is so effective both in wrestling and in bjj. That said defense is the highest path percentage in wrestling. I was 75-8 my last year and was only taken down 4 times and only shot maybe 20 times and on just 5 people.
Nice yeah this footage was from the national championship tournament so they know what they are doing. I think it comes down to forcing people into taking bad shots. Being competent enough to just not be a liability and force people to take bad/rushed shots.
@@LIMIBJJ …I’m familiar with the source. I’m saying you chose footage of BAD shots with MECHANICAL failure. It seems you’re under the impression elite athletes can’t use poor technique. But that’s what you showed for your support for defense being superior to offense. I agree with the claim (defense is superior) but the evidence you showed is straw manning the efficacy of offensive wrestling (the corner stone of defensive wrestling)
@@LIMIBJJ Also In order to force people into bad shots via pressure inherently means YOUR offense is good enough to maintain dominant position so they don’t feel comfortable shooting. And then when they see an opening it’s a trap that you counter. You’re describing being a good wrestler (defensive solid by way of offense prowess) and then at the end effectively saying it’s not worth the time to become a great offensive wrestler so just learn defense…but to be good defensively means you MUST be good offensively. In short you can’t have one without the other.
If you made it this far I’m not your average commenter, I’m not a name dropper but I have worked with world champion Bjj guys on their wrestling and a couple UFC fighters. You just seem to have a gap in knowledge here. Over all I like your content it’s fun and informative my bjj needs work and I can learn passively from you as I drive to work. But you’re off the mark on your wrestling claims.
Did you just give us half a video? Whyyyyyyyy
Hahahaha sorry to do that to you! Working on Part 2 now!
To bad I can’t like more than once
😂 you’re the man 🙌🏼
If there is no Gordon Gordon Gordon its bad video 😅
😂
The Most Common Takedown: TLDR
Guillotine.
Haha
Glad to see this channel is branching out from being GNN (Gordon News Network).
😂