Very impressive. I am not from the UK, however I enjoy seeing the Pi being such a support unit for _its predecessors._ Just impressive what can be done with these old machines and ARM boards in combination.
Nice video, good demonstration. 10:17 - I think I know why this has happened. As I understand it, when you type programs into Basic, the keywords are converted into special byte-long (or maybe longer, I don't know) values called tokens. So if you typed the program into 6502 Basic, it didn't recognise the CIRCLE keyword and didn't convert it into a token. Then when you copy the line and re-enter it, ARM Basic recognises the CIRCLE keyword and correctly converts it into a token. I think you might find the same thing happens if you type the program into 6502 Basic, save it, then copy the file onto a later Acorn or raspberry pi with RISC OS and try to load the file there.
You can cut down on the typing by using abbreviations - L. instead of LIST, MO. instead of MODE, CH. instead of CHAIN and *. instead of *CAT, for instance. Others are available through your search engine of choice. If you type the abbreviations into a program (eg. 10MO.7) they will be expanded when you list it (10 MODE7).
Fantastic work! I learnt to code on a bbc micro in the late 80s, and used gem on a pc clone when in college studying computer science. Nowadays I work as an app developer building software for schools :) watching your video brought back a lot of memories, Thank you for sharing!
Very cool project. had heard rumours of using the Pi on the TUBE slot, but this is the first I've seen what it entails and what it can do. It seems like this is just the beginning as a lot more could be done, especially with the multi-core Pi models. Can't wait to see what the BBC Micro community comes up with next.
i recall i had elite for the bbc on a hardisk which were actually floppy and floppy disks 'like the elite game in this vid were actually hard,that sound when you turn the bbc on brought back instant memories ,great vid.
The chugging 3.5" floppy, the mono-mode-for-'serious' and the GEM Desktop are giving me Atari ST flashbacks. Need a double-take to realise it's a beeb with an emulated x86 "PC Emulator".
I think there was actually a version of FreeGEM made specifically for the Beeb as well? The BBC hi-rez mode is more like CGA though, or something halfway between CGA and Hercules (...in fact, essentially a hybrid of CGA or ST Hi-Rez for the width, and the Amiga or Amstrad PCW for the height...)
I liked how you did all that on a bbc master computerthere were 64k acorn board for the master but there was a very unstable 1mb acorn board which I tested for acorn under RH electrics back in 1985 to 1989 when I left the company 3.5" floppy disks were 720mb when formatted which were used for the compact master and electron plus 3 add on which I was testing the boards before they were cased up
Of course, an option that is still open to you if you want to keep the trackball plugged in is replacing the real floppy with a flash-based virtual floppy like a Gotek / HxC...
The graphics commands that appeared in later versions of BBC Basic were available for older BBC Micros by fitting the Acorn Advanced Graphics ROM. I'm pretty certain that this ROM was included with the Master 128 (it had 128KB of ROM with multiple ROM images for DFS, ADFS, and several of the VIEW suite, as well as 128KB of RAM), but you may have had to enable it (like you did to enable ADFS).
BASIC programs get converted from text keywords to tokens when they're stored to save space. I would hazard a guess that the token on the disc isn't being decoded properly when the program is loaded, but when you effectively re-type the command by copying it, the correct information is put into RAM. But that's just my uninformed guess :)
I had that trackball for my Atari ST, the locking switches were a brilliant idea but ended up annoying the heck out of me. I don't think your copy of Elite is the proper Master version; it should have more colour.
Locomotive BASIC has a problem and has to be patched if you can get the AMSTRAD 1512 Help Screen book on a 3.25 disc that has the patch files for Locomotive Basic.
Silly question - why wouldn't running a random circle drawing program be possible on a regular BBC? It's a fairly straightforward BASIC function test kind of thing...
Hi Tahrey... never a silly question! Ok technically a circle could be drawn in BASIC on a regular BBC Micro as you quite rightly point out ... However that would require a number of lines including telling the machine pi= and then repetitively plotting to the screen RAM .... from BASIC 5 the command 'CIRCLE' was added so you could call up the draw routine with ease and in one line of code. If you tried a 'CIRCLE' statement on a regular BBC model B (BASIC 1 or 2) or a BBC Master (BASIC 3 or 4???) both would hang or report back as syntax error.
Presumably the tube processor must be patched with software drivers that send all input/output to the host processor? When running ARM BASIC, is it sending commands to the host processor to draw each pixel? IIRC DOS era graphics drivers CGA/EGA etc are implemented in ROMs on the graphics card, that extend some PC BIOS calls. So the tube can substitute PC / CGA / EGA BIOS calls with code that communicates with the host processor, but this would not work fo later versions of Windows that softload drivers or bypass the BIOS and directly accesses the hardware. Is my understanding right?
I'm a bit disappointed it's only a 6502 second processor.... I was kinda hoping it'd be a BCM2835 second processor... imagine how much BBC Basic you could get into that?! oh, oh,oh... I spoke too soon, it seems. .... I think ALL my floppy discs in the 90s were "retired" cover disks. I always wanted my DOS box to emulate a Beeb... But getting a beeb to emulate DOS (especially with an ARM on hand) is just "sinful", quite disgusting actually. ;) That Paint on GEM on a MODE 0 screen, reminds me of Fleet Street Editor, apart from the face that we ran that on the native processor on the BBC's own 6502. So "ya boo" to Digital Research ;) That was ACE!
Fantastic stuff. Did you have to do a lot of config to get the mouse/trackball working? Also, I guess that it's a BBC specific trackball, so is the 'user' port just a proprietary serial interface? I've not used a BBC for 5 years since I gave my colleague's back to him.
Hi thanks for your kind words... In answer to your question, No very little if any config required as the GEM operating system has a custom mouse driver in software which looks for a AMX/QUEST mouse attached to the BBC user port, this is why some software like early Windows might have issues as its mouse software driver will be looking for a serial / PS/2 input. But nothing to say a workaround could not be sorted. And yes as i'm aware most 'pointing' devices for the BBC used the user port, apart from the later 'Master Compact' which did have a standard serial interface but ironically I don't think this setup would work with that machine. Hence why the Master 128 lated for 9 years in production and on sale.
I understand that the ARM Coprocessor allows ARM native machine code and language interpreters to run, e.g. BASIC V from the Archie, however the memory map of the BBC master is vastly different to that of the Arch, no? As such, when BASIC V is interpreting the program, it will be attempting to send (for example) screen data to where the Archie VIDC sat in the memory map will it not? How then, is it able to function on a BBC Master? Or does it write the screen data back to the MOS which in turn handles sending it across to the video controller in the BBC Master's memory map?
What you have to remember is the BBC BASIC V ROM being used is complied for the Raspberry Pi's ARM memory map with the software running on the Pi to intemperate calls to the ULA via the Tube interface. So this is not the Archimedes build of BBC BASIC V so any calls made in 6502 or early ARM2 machine language wont work. If the code is just BBC BASIC and not asking for modes or colours that the BBC Micro cant do then most runs fine. Its for the reason its not possible to run Arthur or an early RISC OS on a BBC Master with a ARM co-pro
Just got mine, really awesome. Any ideas how to boot a game from the MMC card? I just get error "Tube on!"...was hoping to try elite co pro version (6502)
Hi i have my retroPI connected up to the PiTubeDirect SC in tube connector which fits in the tube connector under the BBC model B but i have a BBC Master that i was hoping to use the retroPi on and was under the impression the PiTubeDirect SC in tube connector was compatible with the BBC Master but i have found the PiTubeDirect board does not fit the BBC Master as there is not enough room to slide the board on to the tubes pins without bending and damaging the board? Can you tell me where i can get a long cable that goes from the tube in connector to the retroPi for the BBC Master.Looks like i will need to use the same setup as yours in the video.
Hi yes did the exact same thing ... and bit of a DOH! moment! I bought a 40 pin aka '40 way ' ribbon cable off ebay which was in male to female configuration to fit both the pi tube direct and the tube interface. I did use Raspberry Pi GPIO jumper leads to begin with but this was a bit of pain. It is worth looking at Raspberry Pi parts as well as you can get fixed 40 way GPIO interface leads although you might need an adaptor to turn one end from female to male. Alternatively there is an internal board version of the pitube direct for the BBC Master which is something im considering.
Hi Thanks for your reply, I just want to keep things simple and get a cable to fit the tube connector on the BBC model B and Master. I have no way how to test the pi zero as it needs a small hdmi adapter so i'm snuffed there.I've asked the seller if i can send the Pi back to him to test. Using the PiTubeDirect adapter to fit the BBC Master tube connector is very misleading there is no way i can get the PiTubeDirect board on to the Masters tube connector pins without forcing it on and then it will either bend and get damaged where as on the BBC model B there is plenty of room for the PiTubeDirect board so slide on to the pins perfectly. Have you an ebay link on one of those cables you used on the video?
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GPIO-Extender-Ribbon-Cable-40-Way-MALE-FEMALE-for-Raspberry-Pi-Model-B-UK-IDC-/142569490701?var=&hash=item2131cdc90d This is where i bought mine from
would this do www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raspberry-Pi-B-compatible-GPIO-Extender-40-way-Ribbon-Cable-Female-Male/201130545074?hash=item2ed4508fb2:m:m29u-XZe2xF8zd1al8iUtUw
The Master 512 has a 80186. Yes, they really existed and the Master 512 was one of the very few desktop machines using it. The 80186 was more used in embedded systems.
Mainly due to SD card solutions only supporting the DFS filing system... and needing to run software under ADFS or in the case of GEM hot swapping to DOS FAT formats, something MMCs etc cant handle.
Hi Justin, Yes it will, and whats nice depending on the type bought the unit I have will plug into the Tube port on a model B and hang out the way under the Beeb's case with out the need for additional ribbon cable. The only thing im not sure if it would work on a stock 32K model B is the Intel / DOS / GEM desktop stuff as this needs 64K of a later B+ or BBC Master 128.. I think
Thanks for the reply, will look into getting one of these for my stock 32k model B , even if it's purely for the enhanced version of Elite and my own personal programs etc, just need to look for the correct version of pi and the relevant software to mimic the 65c02 processor, i'm assuming they're all available from the links in the description? :D
The software was all included on the SD card used for the Pi, including the 6502 second processors so Elite should work. The Beeb its-self dose not require any additional software or ROMs so a stock machine is fine. You will need to source your own Raspberry Pi, if you want to fit it under the beeb it'll need to be a Pi Zero. Original Model A & B's (2011/2012) don't work as there PCB layout is different and they do not have a full GPIO pin out. So it needs to be a later A+ or B+ at minimum.
It serves a number of functions, in the most part its 'just for fun' and because it can be done, doesn't cost that much and works very well. As this gives cheap and reliable co-pro functionality it allows software and some hardware to be used once again without the need for failing and / or very expensive and rare original co-pro boards. This can be useful for software archivists, or museums etc. And very occasionally a real life industrial application is found were a beeb running a certain and obscure co-pro is needed to run an appliance or machine of some description. I do however except the irony that the Pi-Zero on its own can run 99% of the beebs co-pro software and hardware under emulation --- but we'll just keep quiet about that LOL :-P
Very cool indeed ! Not much stuff happens in the bbc scene compared to other 8 bit computers, so this is seriously great to see. Very impressive. Looking forward to seeing more vids. Subbed ;)
Very impressive.
I am not from the UK, however I enjoy seeing the Pi being such a support unit for _its predecessors._
Just impressive what can be done with these old machines and ARM boards in combination.
Nice video, good demonstration.
10:17 - I think I know why this has happened. As I understand it, when you type programs into Basic, the keywords are converted into special byte-long (or maybe longer, I don't know) values called tokens. So if you typed the program into 6502 Basic, it didn't recognise the CIRCLE keyword and didn't convert it into a token. Then when you copy the line and re-enter it, ARM Basic recognises the CIRCLE keyword and correctly converts it into a token.
I think you might find the same thing happens if you type the program into 6502 Basic, save it, then copy the file onto a later Acorn or raspberry pi with RISC OS and try to load the file there.
Amazing really. I bought a BBC Micro model B when they became available. The was a six month waiting list to actually get the computer as I recall.
Very impressive video, I am amazed that the PI do alot more with a BBC Master. well done for showing what you can do with a old computer
You can cut down on the typing by using abbreviations - L. instead of LIST, MO. instead of MODE, CH. instead of CHAIN and *. instead of *CAT, for instance. Others are available through your search engine of choice.
If you type the abbreviations into a program (eg. 10MO.7) they will be expanded when you list it (10 MODE7).
Cool, cheers for that info
@@WiFiSheep I was surprised you mentioned the Star Dot site, then typed *cat :)
@@Pugwash. force of habit im afraid :-P
Wow I used to use one of those computers at school years ago, haven't seen one in ages.
Fantastic work! I learnt to code on a bbc micro in the late 80s, and used gem on a pc clone when in college studying computer science. Nowadays I work as an app developer building software for schools :) watching your video brought back a lot of memories, Thank you for sharing!
Very cool project. had heard rumours of using the Pi on the TUBE slot, but this is the first I've seen what it entails and what it can do. It seems like this is just the beginning as a lot more could be done, especially with the multi-core Pi models. Can't wait to see what the BBC Micro community comes up with next.
Thoroughly enjoyed this while searching for "Aardvark Direct Pro", obsolete computer recording studio stuff.
i recall i had elite for the bbc on a hardisk which were actually floppy and floppy disks 'like the elite game in this vid were actually hard,that sound when you turn the bbc on brought back instant memories ,great vid.
Nice! I remember using DR DOS and GEM on my Amstrad PC1512 back in the late 80s.
Very cool video mate. So good to see a bbc doing alternative things
I remember using GEM on a Master at school using an AMX mouse. We had the Music synth system as well
Fascinating to see all that working through a BBC Micro!
The chugging 3.5" floppy, the mono-mode-for-'serious' and the GEM Desktop are giving me Atari ST flashbacks. Need a double-take to realise it's a beeb with an emulated x86 "PC Emulator".
I think there was actually a version of FreeGEM made specifically for the Beeb as well? The BBC hi-rez mode is more like CGA though, or something halfway between CGA and Hercules (...in fact, essentially a hybrid of CGA or ST Hi-Rez for the width, and the Amiga or Amstrad PCW for the height...)
I liked how you did all that on a bbc master computerthere were 64k acorn board for the master but there was a very unstable 1mb acorn board which I tested for acorn under RH electrics back in 1985 to 1989 when I left the company 3.5" floppy disks were 720mb when formatted which were used for the compact master and electron plus 3 add on which I was testing the boards before they were cased up
Excellent video ;) good to see the bbc master doing something more like the early 1990's pc's
Of course, an option that is still open to you if you want to keep the trackball plugged in is replacing the real floppy with a flash-based virtual floppy like a Gotek / HxC...
Just found your channel and it looks like I have a lot of videos to watch! Great content. Thanks.
Awesome, thank you!
The graphics commands that appeared in later versions of BBC Basic were available for older BBC Micros by fitting the Acorn Advanced Graphics ROM.
I'm pretty certain that this ROM was included with the Master 128 (it had 128KB of ROM with multiple ROM images for DFS, ADFS, and several of the VIEW suite, as well as 128KB of RAM), but you may have had to enable it (like you did to enable ADFS).
Thanks for this upload. Very informative.
All this is very impressive.
had already considered using a gem based system to construct a gui for the spectrum next. which also uses the pi zero as a `slave`.
BASIC programs get converted from text keywords to tokens when they're stored to save space. I would hazard a guess that the token on the disc isn't being decoded properly when the program is loaded, but when you effectively re-type the command by copying it, the correct information is put into RAM. But that's just my uninformed guess :)
You can see the Atari ST within Gem.
Same company I believe
I had that trackball for my Atari ST, the locking switches were a brilliant idea but ended up annoying the heck out of me.
I don't think your copy of Elite is the proper Master version; it should have more colour.
Locomotive BASIC has a problem and has to be patched if you can get the AMSTRAD 1512 Help Screen book on a 3.25 disc that has the patch files for Locomotive Basic.
Amazing & Fantastic & Whateveryounameit!
The auto generated subtitles on this video are amusingly sweary around the 3:50 minute mark
Thanks for the heads up on that! Sorry for any offence coursed, as mentioned it was auto generated by youtube, Ive now changed that bit :-)
Silly question - why wouldn't running a random circle drawing program be possible on a regular BBC? It's a fairly straightforward BASIC function test kind of thing...
Hi Tahrey... never a silly question! Ok technically a circle could be drawn in BASIC on a regular BBC Micro as you quite rightly point out ... However that would require a number of lines including telling the machine pi= and then repetitively plotting to the screen RAM .... from BASIC 5 the command 'CIRCLE' was added so you could call up the draw routine with ease and in one line of code.
If you tried a 'CIRCLE' statement on a regular BBC model B (BASIC 1 or 2) or a BBC Master (BASIC 3 or 4???) both would hang or report back as syntax error.
Excellent video very well described ;)
Presumably the tube processor must be patched with software drivers that send all input/output to the host processor?
When running ARM BASIC, is it sending commands to the host processor to draw each pixel?
IIRC DOS era graphics drivers CGA/EGA etc are implemented in ROMs on the graphics card, that extend some PC BIOS calls. So the tube can substitute PC / CGA / EGA BIOS calls with code that communicates with the host processor, but this would not work fo later versions of Windows that softload drivers or bypass the BIOS and directly accesses the hardware.
Is my understanding right?
I'm a bit disappointed it's only a 6502 second processor.... I was kinda hoping it'd be a BCM2835 second processor... imagine how much BBC Basic you could get into that?!
oh, oh,oh... I spoke too soon, it seems.
.... I think ALL my floppy discs in the 90s were "retired" cover disks.
I always wanted my DOS box to emulate a Beeb... But getting a beeb to emulate DOS (especially with an ARM on hand) is just "sinful", quite disgusting actually. ;)
That Paint on GEM on a MODE 0 screen, reminds me of Fleet Street Editor, apart from the face that we ran that on the native processor on the BBC's own 6502. So "ya boo" to Digital Research ;)
That was ACE!
Fantastic stuff.
Did you have to do a lot of config to get the mouse/trackball working?
Also, I guess that it's a BBC specific trackball, so is the 'user' port just a proprietary serial interface? I've not used a BBC for 5 years since I gave my colleague's back to him.
Hi thanks for your kind words...
In answer to your question, No very little if any config required as the GEM operating system has a custom mouse driver in software which looks for a AMX/QUEST mouse attached to the BBC user port, this is why some software like early Windows might have issues as its mouse software driver will be looking for a serial / PS/2 input. But nothing to say a workaround could not be sorted.
And yes as i'm aware most 'pointing' devices for the BBC used the user port, apart from the later 'Master Compact' which did have a standard serial interface but ironically I don't think this setup would work with that machine. Hence why the Master 128 lated for 9 years in production and on sale.
I understand that the ARM Coprocessor allows ARM native machine code and language interpreters to run, e.g. BASIC V from the Archie, however the memory map of the BBC master is vastly different to that of the Arch, no?
As such, when BASIC V is interpreting the program, it will be attempting to send (for example) screen data to where the Archie VIDC sat in the memory map will it not? How then, is it able to function on a BBC Master?
Or does it write the screen data back to the MOS which in turn handles sending it across to the video controller in the BBC Master's memory map?
What you have to remember is the BBC BASIC V ROM being used is complied for the Raspberry Pi's ARM memory map with the software running on the Pi to intemperate calls to the ULA via the Tube interface. So this is not the Archimedes build of BBC BASIC V so any calls made in 6502 or early ARM2 machine language wont work. If the code is just BBC BASIC and not asking for modes or colours that the BBC Micro cant do then most runs fine.
Its for the reason its not possible to run Arthur or an early RISC OS on a BBC Master with a ARM co-pro
I want to see it hooked u pto an Acorn Risc PC for 1000Mhz!!
Just got mine, really awesome. Any ideas how to boot a game from the MMC card? I just get error "Tube on!"...was hoping to try elite co pro version (6502)
ok don't worry, I figured it out "*DIN45, *TUBEELT"
Hi i have my retroPI connected up to the PiTubeDirect SC in tube connector which fits in the tube connector under the BBC model B but i have a BBC Master that i was hoping to use the retroPi on and was under the impression the PiTubeDirect SC in tube connector was compatible with the BBC Master but i have found the PiTubeDirect board does not fit the BBC Master as there is not enough room to slide the board on to the tubes pins without bending and damaging the board?
Can you tell me where i can get a long cable that goes from the tube in connector to the retroPi for the BBC Master.Looks like i will need to use the same setup as yours in the video.
Hi yes did the exact same thing ... and bit of a DOH! moment! I bought a 40 pin aka '40 way ' ribbon cable off ebay which was in male to female configuration to fit both the pi tube direct and the tube interface.
I did use Raspberry Pi GPIO jumper leads to begin with but this was a bit of pain. It is worth looking at Raspberry Pi parts as well as you can get fixed 40 way GPIO interface leads although you might need an adaptor to turn one end from female to male. Alternatively there is an internal board version of the pitube direct for the BBC Master which is something im considering.
Hi Thanks for your reply, I just want to keep things simple and get a cable to fit the tube connector on the BBC model B and Master.
I have no way how to test the pi zero as it needs a small hdmi adapter so i'm snuffed there.I've asked the seller if i can send the Pi back to him to test.
Using the PiTubeDirect adapter to fit the BBC Master tube connector is very misleading there is no way i can get the PiTubeDirect board on to the Masters tube connector pins without forcing it on and then it will either bend and get damaged where as on the BBC model B there is plenty of room for the PiTubeDirect board so slide on to the pins perfectly.
Have you an ebay link on one of those cables you used on the video?
Can only see those 40 way cables for the Pi's but its female only? can you show me where you got yours from ? ebay link?
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GPIO-Extender-Ribbon-Cable-40-Way-MALE-FEMALE-for-Raspberry-Pi-Model-B-UK-IDC-/142569490701?var=&hash=item2131cdc90d
This is where i bought mine from
would this do www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raspberry-Pi-B-compatible-GPIO-Extender-40-way-Ribbon-Cable-Female-Male/201130545074?hash=item2ed4508fb2:m:m29u-XZe2xF8zd1al8iUtUw
The Master 512 has a 80186. Yes, they really existed and the Master 512 was one of the very few desktop machines using it. The 80186 was more used in embedded systems.
egelmuis I am lucky enough to have said Master 512 with the 80186 daughter board.. worked well!
RM Nimbus...
can that game be slowed down. elite looked too fast. even just 1 mhz slower ?
it can! The Pi Tube Direct firmware has been updated since this video was made and speed issues have been resolved.
Why oh why haven't you loaded all your disks onto an SD card?
Mainly due to SD card solutions only supporting the DFS filing system... and needing to run software under ADFS or in the case of GEM hot swapping to DOS FAT formats, something MMCs etc cant handle.
Does that unit work on a regular BBC Micro Model B ?
Hi Justin, Yes it will, and whats nice depending on the type bought the unit I have will plug into the Tube port on a model B and hang out the way under the Beeb's case with out the need for additional ribbon cable. The only thing im not sure if it would work on a stock 32K model B is the Intel / DOS / GEM desktop stuff as this needs 64K of a later B+ or BBC Master 128.. I think
Thanks for the reply, will look into getting one of these for my stock 32k model B , even if it's purely for the enhanced version of Elite and my own personal programs etc, just need to look for the correct version of pi and the relevant software to mimic the 65c02 processor, i'm assuming they're all available from the links in the description? :D
The software was all included on the SD card used for the Pi, including the 6502 second processors so Elite should work. The Beeb its-self dose not require any additional software or ROMs so a stock machine is fine. You will need to source your own Raspberry Pi, if you want to fit it under the beeb it'll need to be a Pi Zero. Original Model A & B's (2011/2012) don't work as there PCB layout is different and they do not have a full GPIO pin out. So it needs to be a later A+ or B+ at minimum.
What's the use case for this? Just for fun?
It serves a number of functions, in the most part its 'just for fun' and because it can be done, doesn't cost that much and works very well. As this gives cheap and reliable co-pro functionality it allows software and some hardware to be used once again without the need for failing and / or very expensive and rare original co-pro boards. This can be useful for software archivists, or museums etc. And very occasionally a real life industrial application is found were a beeb running a certain and obscure co-pro is needed to run an appliance or machine of some description.
I do however except the irony that the Pi-Zero on its own can run 99% of the beebs co-pro software and hardware under emulation --- but we'll just keep quiet about that LOL :-P
Those Amiga disks are 880K son
Very cool indeed ! Not much stuff happens in the bbc scene compared to other 8 bit computers, so this is seriously great to see. Very impressive. Looking forward to seeing more vids. Subbed ;)