Dear Matt, thank you for this very informative video. I drive a 2004 boxster and between you and me; I am the slowest Porsche driver in the world, I just love the engineering of the brand. It all works very well and after 20 years it just does what it is suppose to do, bring a smile to my face.
I just bought my first ever Porsche this year. A 992.1 Carrera T. I’m in my early 40s. Keep doing what you’re doing - you’ll be driving that boxer engine before my age.
I worked an Subarus and Porsches. I learned Subaru EJ’s and FB’s were identified as “Boxers” but not Porsches. Porsche engines where know as “Flat” layouts. Boxer engine opposed piston’s share a space on the crank while flat engines (as in Porsches) have their own spaces on the crank.
There has never been a non-boxer flat 4 or 6 engine in a car. The only instance of a flat non-boxer engine in a car is Ferrari's flat 12 engines which were not boxer engine, opposed pistons used the same crank-pin. Yes Porsche calls the engine in the 911 a "flat 6", but it is not a non-boxer flat 6. Its a boxer 6, with opposed pistons having their crank-pins 180 degrees apart which makes opposed pistons go in and out together.
I think you have this the wrong way around. A boxer engine can’t have pistons sharing a crank pin, because then opposing pistons wouldn’t move towards or away from each other, but in the same direction as each other. Porsches definitely have boxer engines, a 180 degree V would have pistons sharing crank pins and moving in the same direction as each other
You've got it backwards. If two opposing piston rods share the same crank journal, it is NOT a boxer. If they each have their own journal, as in both Subarus AND Porsches, then it IS a boxer.
well, for one thing the sound of a flat 6 is pretty amazing. my Cayman is almost 20 years old but it roars when i driving in the canyons on an early Sunday morning. However, it is a big pain in the neck to take the back wheels off the car to change the sparkplugs and coils..
Not all forces are cancelled. The longitudinal offset between piston pairs do setup a small rocking couple. But as ICE engines go, they are smooth and fast revving, and sound great. I have a 3.4 L Cayman S.
@@TheTigers00001 Congrats! I held out for so long on a 987.2 but never found the right deal for me. A nice 987.1 dropped into my lap and I'm happy I took the deal. It's great.
@@DrivenbyMatt The inline 6 cylinder is the only motor which is inherently balanced in both primary and secondary forces. That would make for an interesting video, I think.
The way Porsche made boxer engines made it look like it's reliable but besides Subaru I don't think that level of boxer engines can be replicated the same
The classic VW Beetle has a boxer engine, the VW Bus and the Citroen 2CV. All highly reliable. Porsche cars actually started off with a tuned Beetle engine. You have boxer aircraft engines still manufactured today, again highly reliable.
Subaru is not even close to porsche in terms of reliability unless your a luxury brand that can afford to make everything extremely premium the inherit challenges of this engine will bear there face and cause your engine to explode. Very notable in the WRX and in cars with higher more exposed piston rings that obtain lower emissions but also have a tendency to fail due to inherit exposure to combustion.
Porsche also makes their engines durable and they have a life-time cam chain so no timing “belt” to replace. Replace the plugs and drive belt every forty thousand miles and other than typical fluids, brakes, tires and filters that’s all there is on the engine to replace. Another reason they’re so good is refinement. Porsche has been making flat engines for over 80 years. Then there is the intake manifold which is designed to flow air better by using intake air pulses generated when intake valves close and air is redirected to the opposite cylinder bank at increased velocity. They haven’t missed much with so much development.
That was not always the case. with the aircooled motors, the timing chain was a problem with higher mileages, when they stretched to far with wear, catastrophic damage, an after sales fix was implemented, a guide was added against the change which prevented the damage, the other problem was with the K Jetronic. a back fire would see the intake plenum chamber crack due to excessive pressure, lead to uneven running. a spring loaded trap door was added as a precaution, so the plenum chamber had a way to vent the sudden extra air pressure. cured the problem. This was a 1980s fix and it worked well.
And very straight forward to disassemble and assemble, if we have the idiot book, I have used the 'Idiot' book to rebuild three flat four beetle engines in the past, each with good long lasting results. Author of the Idiot book, John Muir, may you rest in peace, your book is your lasting legacy!
Great video and well thought out but you missed one other benefit. The inherent balance means that they need minimal counterweights on the crank, meaning they have lower reciprocating mass allowing them to build and lose revs quickly.
Great video, very informative, i am a diehard porsche enthusiast and still learned a few new things. All in under 5 mins, and i was glad that u also mentioned why not everyone uses it.
Lets not forget the 602 cc flat two-cylinder in the Citroën 2CV6 that puts out 30 hp (compared to 34 hp from a 1200 cc four-cylinder flat VW beetle engine).
I drive a 2013 Outback with a 3.6R boxer engine. There's only about 1-1/2 to 3 inches of space to access the plugs for maintenance as the frame rails get in the way. Cam gaskets are also a pain due to access issues but I've had to do each side only once in the 215,000 miles of ownership. Other than oil eating issues with this particular engine, I'm quite happy with the engine and look forward to getting it to 250,000 miles.
Great video, Matt. Very informative, relevant and concise. The only thing I have to add is what has basically been said below in response to RoadRunner's erroneous post. Flat engines have horizontally opposed pistons. Non boxer flat engines have opposing pistons mounted on the same crank pin resulting in both pistons moving in the same direction resulting in undesirable vibration. The Ferrari non boxer flat engine referred to below was curiously designated by the manufacturer as a "180 Degree V-12". Boxer engines are flat engines in which opposing pistons are mounted on separate and opposing crank pins so that each pair of cylinders moves in opposite directions cancelling out vibrations as stated in the video. Therefore, all boxers are flat, not all flat engines are boxers. All Porsche and Subaru flat engines are boxers.
burning oil can be an issue. oil can pool in the cylinders due to gravity not being able to pull all the oil down. this can result in an embarrassing puff of smoke upon start up if the car has sat for a long time.
Nice video College Matt. In my head I’m a similar age to you, but back here in reality I’ve just started my fifth decade 😲. I’ve been driving boxer engines for around 15 years now, specifically in Subarus (legacy GT models imported from Japan to my home in the UK). They’re great engines for the reasons stated in your videos. I’ve done my own servicing on them for years and whilst my first spark plug change on the flat 4 took 2 hours 😮 I have that down to about 20 mins now. I’ve also owned a porsche, before I started with the subarus so a while back now, but being the 944 turbo that sadly didn’t have the boxer engine. I recently was lucky to spend a few days/300 mile or so trip with my brother in a 992 Turbo including 7 hours behind the wheel in total. That thing is an absolute dream, totally ridiculous speed and such a solid confidence inspiring feeling to drive, or even to sit in as a passenger. It’s made me become a bit obsessed with 911 turbos and while a 992 is waaay out of my budget, I’ve been trying to convince my subconscious that a 997.2 turbo S might be within my reach in a couple of years. Sorry for the rambling, keep up the good work with your videos. your production is good.
I agree with you, the 991 turbos are spectacular - I hope are able to own one soon. Your spark plug change time is impressive. Thanks for watching and for your comment, I enjoyed reading!
I've always understood a boxer to be a horizontal opposed firing order, eg- BMW two cylinder opposed, or 4 cylinder opposed, like the 356 and 912 had. A 6 cylinder engine is not opposed firing order, therefore should not be called a boxer but a flat 6. Not mentioned is that many aviation engines are 4 cylinder, and even 2 cylinder opposed, making them also boxers, and as to more parts? Not really true anymore. Vet, multiple cams, 4, or even 5 valves per cylinder, chains, guides, pumps, etc, all makes of engines, Nissane, Honda's, even American engines, can hqve more parts than a boxer or flat 6. And speaking of: a flat 6 has a very accessible top or underside where most accessories are mounted, unlike v-8s and v-6s where stuff is hidden on the sides that are harder to access.
When I was a kid, I noticed that VW engines (Beetles and Bus) and Porsche engines sounded alike. Soon, Subarus showed up with their funny little cars (yeah, I've been around for awhile) and THEY sounded the same. Once yootube appeared I was learned why. The uneven length of each cylinder's exhaust, the weird squeaky sounds of the fan cooling, etc... anyway, cool video. Thumbs up, new sub.
The rear weight bias helps when braking because there is a significant amount of weight transfer to the front from the rear. The distribution of weight can approach 50/50 under high deceleration.
I have 2 Boxster's, a 2004 manual base, and a 2009 'S' with PDK. Hard to argue against a mid engine flat six in terms of handling dynamics. For driving around town I prefer the manual base 986. It's great fun, and relatively inexpensive. If you're young and just starting out it's a great car to own. Enjoyed the video.
That sounds awesome. I have a feeling I’ll be buying something along those lines in the next 10 years. The temptation is too great lol. I enjoyed the comment, thanks for the compliment and for watching
I agree the 986 flat six is such a blast after 20 years of reliable ownership I stepped up and now enjoy the 718 flat four which also seems quite affordable for what you get to drive
I ride a BMW motorcycle. With a boxer of course. Smooth as a sowing machine. The servicing is easy, just because the cylinders are so accessible. I always wondered why no other brand uses it, except for Honda in their GoldWings. The ground clearing is enough. A boxer in a motorcycle has one little problem: putting your legs out in front is hardly possible.
As an Owner of a 1971 Porsche 911T which still runs w 1.3 million miles on the original engine I can elaborate on some points. They need near zero maintainence; my carb was set once, after that just sparkplugs - this is due to the high precision and counter balanced forces that you elaborate on. Another aspect you didn't mention is wear - a flat engine starts with oil still in the cylindars; as a result it does burn some oil; but with other engines gravity drains oil so they start nearly dry. Driving the car properly is also key to any cars longevity; keeping in the power range and not lagging your engine is very important.
911’s less so but 718 cayman and boxter although more so the boxter are very easy to work on they have a large misconception that it is hard to work on them if you have a lift it is effortless you don’t have a big steering rack impeding access from bottom of engine you can get at the front of the engine form the back of your seat where porsche has provided a huge port big enough to service even major things like an alternator and you have excellent side access through wheel wells and you can remove the rear bumper for even more access and there is no radiator there to limit access. The top of the engine can be accessed by putting the convertible roof in service position. The big thing is Porsches reliability these cars depreciate slower than toyotas and refuse to die too so you won’t find yourself needing to work on them almost at all.
first 30 years, boxer configuration was the only engine used by Porsche, then for another twenty, the boxer was the biggest seller. I am a big fan of the boxer, though I lament the passing of the aircooled boxer engine. Wasser cooler is so much more complicated and when higher mileages are reached, so many more components start to fail on the wasser cooler. Not so the air cooler.
Awesome video, thank you. Another boxer that was out there was there years ago is Alfasud. A delightful car to drive, magnificent road holding and a great sound. It's downfall was rust.
There really is no question about the success of the Porsche flat 6. They compete with cars that have engines larger in displacement and still are competitive. The longevity has been proven as the materials used are superior to most. Yes, parts and maintenance are expensive but the performance and longevity of a well maintained flat 6 keeps one smiling.
Can I assume you talked about the lower CG? Porsche claimed that but used a V in the CGT. When questioned, they said “the vast majomajority of weight in an engine is in the bottom of the V so it’s actually got a better CG than a flat engine.
my understanding, and i am not an engineer, the 2 best engines from an engineers standpoint is an inline 6 and a V-12 (V12 is essentially 2 x inline 6)
I _am_ a mechanical engineer; I vote boxer. Disclaimer: I have owned two boxers (914 & Boxster), but never an inline six or V-12. Of course, Porsche also made a flat 12 (917), and Ferrari as well; they’re the best. But for what _I_ (and probably you) can afford…
Boxer type engines provide less bearing load--the weight 9of con rod and cylinders tend to balance out some of the load. Theoretically, this should provide longer crankshaft and bearing life. Most aircraft engines that are air-cooled use this style of engine, or multi-cylinder variants.
I have lusted after a flat six boxer for quite some time and now I’m happy to say I have one - a Subaru Outback may not be in the same league as any 911 but it is supremely smooth and there is a very muted grumble pushing me along - maybe a 911 in my next lifetime 😉
Well explained, and when you drive a 911 you can really feel the benefits, the way it feels so planted. It's very different from most other high performance cars with a front engine.
I love 911s, have one. But the rear engine is a negative, in and of itself, except under braking. Matt didn’t quite explain it fully, but when the weight shifts under hard braking, you’ve got good weight distribution. The engine location works because Porsche has spent decades refining the chassis. Remember the 930? They called them widowmakers because of how they handled under certain conditions. My Cayman technically bangles better, because it’s mid-engines.
Nice video! Subaru would be a great topic for another video. I wonder which manufacturer has produced the largest number of boxer engines over the life of the brand.
Nice video Matt, keep up the good work sir. 🤘 I also highly recommend owning a Porsche as soon as you possibly can, trust me it'll put a smile on your face every time you drive it.
Great video, short and simple! Wish more cars that are awd use the boxer engine, but it does cost more to make and service, if you have ever replace a simple task like the spark plugs on an inline or V engine compare to a boxer/flat engine you will know. Porsche flat engine are quite reliable and completely make sense, low and wide to sit on the rear drive wheels, just look at the 4 litre naturally aspirated masterclass engine in the 911 GT3 rs and revs to 9000rpm too, just amazing.
First, you get a like because you say Porsche more correctly than most others. Usually, I shut off the video the moment I hear the person mangle the man's name. The flat layout is good because it sits so low in the car, but at the same time, it's hard to get to. General Motors also put boxer engines in the Corvair.
0:36 - Not quite, as the crankshaft configurations are quite different. There are 180 degree V engines and it's the crankshaft configuration that sets them apart from boxer engines.
Very informative video, I really enjoyed it. It makes me wonder if the boxer could be coupled with the old timey VW automatic (semi) tranny and coupled with a 356 . . Always wondered that
Most light aircraft are powered by flat 4s, 6s, as well as some rather rare 8s. The main reasons for this choice were a) less vibrations (although still quite a lot for the light structure of an airplane), and b) easier to air cool, as you rightly said. Moreover, the problem of difficult access for maintenance, that exists in cars as you stated, does not exist in aircraft, as the engine(s) sit in cowl(s), that can be opened on both sides, or even easily entirely removed in minutes. Although those engines, for Porsche as well as for light aircraft, are designs dating back to the 1930s... so getting very much obsolete. The future is to powerplants MUCH lighter and smaller for a given power, with much flatter power and torque curves to the point of requiring no transmission box, requiring very little cooling, almost noiseless, inducing zero vibration, much cheaper to build, requiring next to zero maintenance over much longer life times. Oh, and BTW, they also require much less (in terms of $) of a different "fuel": electrons!
The sound of an NA Flat Six is definitely not obsolete. I had a Tesla for five years. I’m pro-EV, but not at the expense of everything else. Horses for courses.
@@m5pilot397 You need noise to reach satisfaction?!?! For me, noise is rather repulsive, whether it comes from my own car, or even worse, someone else's! I made up with it for decades, like everybody else, and didn't complain as long as they were no alternative... and definitely preferred a good -sounding engine to a bad-sounding one. But now that it is available, I much prefer a quiet ride, possibly with a high-quality rendering of my favorite music. Well, I guess my grand-son also needs his comforter!
The VW bug employed an air cooled 4 cylinder boxer engine which was magnificent, also in its simplicity, and very reliable, albeit noisy and not so efficient. But it was good enough to be bored out and pairs were used as aircraft engine s by a French company who built light aircraft for use in places like Africa and Australia by flying doctors, among others. Twin boxer engines from BMW were also used to power the original Citroen Deux chevaux in post war France.
Cool video. But Porsche does not seem quite as devoted to the boxer engine as Subaru. As soon as they put the engine up front in any of their cars, Porsche decided to use inline engines for V engines. IMO, their sedans and SUVs would be much cooler if they had boxer engines. Maybe even some Boxer flat 8 engines.
You have a good point - I think I might look into it for another video. I could address some of these things. Thanks for the compliment and for the good feedback!
Not to get too technical but i just got a new 718 cayman with a 2l boxer 4, the car is amazing and the engine is a masterpiece of engineering. (Ps: if you are ever able to get a Porsche sports car get it and you wont regret it)
That sounds incredible, did you get the 6 speed or the PDK? If I ever get my hands on one you'll definitely see it on this channel haha. Thanks for sharing.
boxers are all right, their lack of mid-long term reliability makes them a bit scary but when its used in a sports car, a bit more tempting...the noise they produce is a bit undewhelming compared to say a 4 cyl honda and the cars they come in is a problem too lol, id love to buy one in a light chassis but they juste dont exist for less money...cool engines !
Porsche also perfected the intake manifold so the amount of power they're able to get out of those flat-sixes even before introducing forced induction is always impressive. Porsche also has invested something to the tune of $60 million dollars in research for synthetic gasoline that is carbon neutral, so I wouldn't call internal combustion quits just yet. Wartime Germany in WW2 had been making synthetic gasoline using pea coal because of international embargos and Porsche had designed the gas engines for many of the tanks including the Tiger and King Tiger, so there is precedent for this.
That would be exciting. Hopefully it happens, I’m holding out hope. I don’t think the complete ev switch will happen as quickly as people think. Lots of infrastructure investment has to occur before EVs are ruling the roads. Anyway, thanks for sharing
@@DrivenbyMatt You're gonna love this then, the announcement about them investing in synthetic gasoline was after Porsche set a new EV record with the Taycan Turbo around the Nurburgring. A maddening time of 7 minutes and 33 seconds and then they go "Hey our new performance EV, the Taycan, just set a record for EVs. To celebrate this achievement we're going to invest a chunk of change into synthetic gasoline because we love the 911 so much"
They say the intake with the controlled valve chambers actually has positive pressure which in affect is making light boost without a turbo or supercharger
I've always wondered, Does the high performance porsches 911 use a Flat or boxer engine? Sometimes it says it's a boxer, sometimes it says it's a flat, I think like the GT3, GT3RS uses Flat engines, but Turbo S, and other more comfortable ones, use Boxer engine, right?
A flat engine just means the pistons lay flat and horizontally opposed on the opposite side of a central crankshaft. There are two main configurations (that I know of) for a flat engine. One is the boxer engine, and the other is the 180 degree V configuration (think of a V8 stretched to 180 degrees). In a boxer engine, each piston has its own crankpin. In a 180 degree V configuration, the pistons share a crankpin. All of Porsche's flat engines are boxer engines. So the GT3, GT3RS, Turbo S, 718, etc. all have boxer engines (either 4 or 6 cylinder). So in summary, all boxer engines are flat engines, but not all flat engines are boxer engines. Hopefully this helps. Thanks for commenting!
Good video, although I have never been a fan of Porsche engines, they are certainly wonderful power plants. I fervently hope the ICE are never overtaken by EVs. Gasoline and oil in my veins.
The “disadvantage” of having two cylinder heads also applies to V8s but that’s never been considered as a negative for that engine configuration. Also, the digression into the mounting position of the engine and the advantages for 911 performance is irrelevant to the features of the boxer engine itself. It’s the reason why older 911s were prone to bouts of severe oversteer which has had to be tamed by electronic intervention and control systems in later models. The mid-engined Boxster/Cayman, which also uses the boxer engine but doesn’t rate a mention, is a superior design in terms of handling in most real-world driving conditions. All that aside, an interesting video though.
I genuinely appreciate you pointing these out. I admit those are flaws in the writing that I failed to consider when making this and your feedback is extremely helpful for future videos. Thanks for the comment
I had a Subaru with a Boxer engine. Never again! systemic faults. head gasket failures, excessive oil consumption, and oil mixing in with the coolant, among others. Problems started at 130,000 miles To expensive and complicated to repair.
Boxer engines and a battery (hybrid) make more sense than EV’s. Power to charge the battery. Remember the Chevrolet Corvair. Imagine that nowadays in a hybrid format. A flat 8 in a Corvette wrapped in fibreglass in hybrid form?
Subaru is a relatively small company from an RD budget perspective and their material costs and margins are much slimmer than Porsche. Subaru should have been buying engines from another company instead of designing their own all these years.
@@black99rt also because Subaru is usually cheaper people are less likely to service them properly and on time. Porsche doesn't have this problem, because if you can afford Porshe you will maintain it properly.
I intended to make the video specific to Porsche and their history with boxer engines, and not boxer engines in general. Not sure if that was a mistake or not haha. Didn’t want it to get too diluted from the overall purpose. Anyway, lm always looking to improve these so I’ll make note for future reference. Thanks for the comment
Yeah, that’s what I meant but I now see why you say that. I meant “until the 993 generation,” meaning the 993 generation was the last to be air cooled. But I didn’t recognize that it could always be interpreted as exclusive. I’ll try to be more specific w language next time, thats on me. thanks for pointing that out
Dear Matt, thank you for this very informative video. I drive a 2004 boxster and between you and me; I am the slowest Porsche driver in the world, I just love the engineering of the brand. It all works very well and after 20 years it just does what it is suppose to do, bring a smile to my face.
That is great to hear. I enjoyed reading, thanks for the comment.
Same here. Just use the right wrench for the spark plugs and you will save yourself a lot of time and swears: Hazet 4766-1
And that’s 100% OK!
I just bought my first ever Porsche this year. A 992.1 Carrera T. I’m in my early 40s. Keep doing what you’re doing - you’ll be driving that boxer engine before my age.
I appreciate the encouragement! Congrats on buying the car, I hope you enjoy it!
I worked an Subarus and Porsches. I learned Subaru EJ’s and FB’s were identified as “Boxers” but not Porsches. Porsche engines where know as “Flat” layouts. Boxer engine opposed piston’s share a space on the crank while flat engines (as in Porsches) have their own spaces on the crank.
Ever wonder where the name Boxster came from …..Porsche flat 4s and 6s have always been known as boxer engines !
There has never been a non-boxer flat 4 or 6 engine in a car. The only instance of a flat non-boxer engine in a car is Ferrari's flat 12 engines which were not boxer engine, opposed pistons used the same crank-pin.
Yes Porsche calls the engine in the 911 a "flat 6", but it is not a non-boxer flat 6. Its a boxer 6, with opposed pistons having their crank-pins 180 degrees apart which makes opposed pistons go in and out together.
This. Technically, Porsche's engine is a V6 with the included angle = 180°
I think you have this the wrong way around. A boxer engine can’t have pistons sharing a crank pin, because then opposing pistons wouldn’t move towards or away from each other, but in the same direction as each other. Porsches definitely have boxer engines, a 180 degree V would have pistons sharing crank pins and moving in the same direction as each other
You've got it backwards. If two opposing piston rods share the same crank journal, it is NOT a boxer. If they each have their own journal, as in both Subarus AND Porsches, then it IS a boxer.
well, for one thing the sound of a flat 6 is pretty amazing. my Cayman is almost 20 years old but it roars when i driving in the canyons on an early Sunday morning. However, it is a big pain in the neck to take the back wheels off the car to change the sparkplugs and coils..
I’m sure the maintenance is inconvenient, although seemingly worth it. I hope to own one someday. Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed reading.
How often do you do that, though? Every 60,000 miles?
@@m5pilot397that and any time you need to get to the side of the engine
For what else?
At how many miles?
@@m5pilot397 sometimes the vvt solenoid goes bad, I'm a little over 53k.
Not all forces are cancelled. The longitudinal offset between piston pairs do setup a small rocking couple. But as ICE engines go, they are smooth and fast revving, and sound great. I have a 3.4 L Cayman S.
I learned something new. I’m not quite sure I knew what a rocking pair was, I’ll see if I can make note of that on the video
I have a 2009 Cayman S manual. I love it.
@@TheTigers00001 Congrats! I held out for so long on a 987.2 but never found the right deal for me. A nice 987.1 dropped into my lap and I'm happy I took the deal. It's great.
@@DrivenbyMatt The inline 6 cylinder is the only motor which is inherently balanced in both primary and secondary forces. That would make for an interesting video, I think.
@@quintessentialtravel1966 It probably would. thanks for this information!
The way Porsche made boxer engines made it look like it's reliable but besides Subaru I don't think that level of boxer engines can be replicated the same
Good point
The classic VW Beetle has a boxer engine, the VW Bus and the Citroen 2CV. All highly reliable. Porsche cars actually started off with a tuned Beetle engine. You have boxer aircraft engines still manufactured today, again highly reliable.
Subaru is not even close to porsche in terms of reliability unless your a luxury brand that can afford to make everything extremely premium the inherit challenges of this engine will bear there face and cause your engine to explode. Very notable in the WRX and in cars with higher more exposed piston rings that obtain lower emissions but also have a tendency to fail due to inherit exposure to combustion.
The Subaru engine can be made reliable with a bit money spent on it look at roger clark motorsports and litchfield as examples
@@krisbuck2165 That is quite expensive and not really worth in in my opinion and a porsche flat six just is reliable.
Porsche also makes their engines durable and they have a life-time cam chain so no timing “belt” to replace. Replace the plugs and drive belt every forty thousand miles and other than typical fluids, brakes, tires and filters that’s all there is on the engine to replace. Another reason they’re so good is refinement. Porsche has been making flat engines for over 80 years. Then there is the intake manifold which is designed to flow air better by using intake air pulses generated when intake valves close and air is redirected to the opposite cylinder bank at increased velocity. They haven’t missed much with so much development.
That was not always the case. with the aircooled motors, the timing chain was a problem with higher mileages, when they stretched to far with wear, catastrophic damage, an after sales fix was implemented, a guide was added against the change which prevented the damage, the other problem was with the K Jetronic. a back fire would see the intake plenum chamber crack due to excessive pressure, lead to uneven running. a spring loaded trap door was added as a precaution, so the plenum chamber had a way to vent the sudden extra air pressure. cured the problem. This was a 1980s fix and it worked well.
as a volkswagen beetle owner, service is no problem as i can sink the engine out of the engine bay in the matter of minutes and service it on a stand
And very straight forward to disassemble and assemble, if we have the idiot book, I have used the 'Idiot' book to rebuild three flat four beetle engines in the past, each with good long lasting results. Author of the Idiot book, John Muir, may you rest in peace, your book is your lasting legacy!
Someone I met has a BMW chopper bike with a boxer engine, it's crazy looking.
It puts center of mass way lower. Funny looking, but great for handling.
BEST ENGINE CONFIURATION EVER
Great video and well thought out but you missed one other benefit. The inherent balance means that they need minimal counterweights on the crank, meaning they have lower reciprocating mass allowing them to build and lose revs quickly.
Great video, very informative, i am a diehard porsche enthusiast and still learned a few new things. All in under 5 mins, and i was glad that u also mentioned why not everyone uses it.
I am glad to hear this - thanks for watching
I have a 992.1 Carrera S. The sound is music, a real symphony.
This is the most efficient video i have ever seen, simply amazing
I really appreciate that thank you!
Lets not forget the 602 cc flat two-cylinder in the Citroën 2CV6 that puts out 30 hp (compared to 34 hp from a 1200 cc four-cylinder flat VW beetle engine).
The Deux Chevaux!
I drive a 2013 Outback with a 3.6R boxer engine. There's only about 1-1/2 to 3 inches of space to access the plugs for maintenance as the frame rails get in the way. Cam gaskets are also a pain due to access issues but I've had to do each side only once in the 215,000 miles of ownership. Other than oil eating issues with this particular engine, I'm quite happy with the engine and look forward to getting it to 250,000 miles.
Great video, Matt. Very informative, relevant and concise. The only thing I have to add is what has basically been said below in response to RoadRunner's erroneous post. Flat engines have horizontally opposed pistons. Non boxer flat engines have opposing pistons mounted on the same crank pin resulting in both pistons moving in the same direction resulting in undesirable vibration. The Ferrari non boxer flat engine referred to below was curiously designated by the manufacturer as a "180 Degree V-12". Boxer engines are flat engines in which opposing pistons are mounted on separate and opposing crank pins so that each pair of cylinders moves in opposite directions cancelling out vibrations as stated in the video. Therefore, all boxers are flat, not all flat engines are boxers. All Porsche and Subaru flat engines are boxers.
burning oil can be an issue. oil can pool in the cylinders due to gravity not being able to pull all the oil down. this can result in an embarrassing puff of smoke upon start up if the car has sat for a long time.
If that's the main criticism of boxer engines they must be awesome
I have owned boxer engine cars for years, vw type 1 type 4 and porsche 911, never ever had the puff of smoke happen. No embarrassment.
Don't forget Lycoming and Continental. Flight demands reliability. All the time. Every time.
Nice video College Matt. In my head I’m a similar age to you, but back here in reality I’ve just started my fifth decade 😲. I’ve been driving boxer engines for around 15 years now, specifically in Subarus (legacy GT models imported from Japan to my home in the UK). They’re great engines for the reasons stated in your videos. I’ve done my own servicing on them for years and whilst my first spark plug change on the flat 4 took 2 hours 😮 I have that down to about 20 mins now.
I’ve also owned a porsche, before I started with the subarus so a while back now, but being the 944 turbo that sadly didn’t have the boxer engine.
I recently was lucky to spend a few days/300 mile or so trip with my brother in a 992 Turbo including 7 hours behind the wheel in total. That thing is an absolute dream, totally ridiculous speed and such a solid confidence inspiring feeling to drive, or even to sit in as a passenger. It’s made me become a bit obsessed with 911 turbos and while a 992 is waaay out of my budget, I’ve been trying to convince my subconscious that a 997.2 turbo S might be within my reach in a couple of years.
Sorry for the rambling, keep up the good work with your videos. your production is good.
I agree with you, the 991 turbos are spectacular - I hope are able to own one soon. Your spark plug change time is impressive. Thanks for watching and for your comment, I enjoyed reading!
I've always understood a boxer to be a horizontal opposed firing order, eg- BMW two cylinder opposed, or 4 cylinder opposed, like the 356 and 912 had. A 6 cylinder engine is not opposed firing order, therefore should not be called a boxer but a flat 6. Not mentioned is that many aviation engines are 4 cylinder, and even 2 cylinder opposed, making them also boxers, and as to more parts? Not really true anymore. Vet, multiple cams, 4, or even 5 valves per cylinder, chains, guides, pumps, etc, all makes of engines, Nissane, Honda's, even American engines, can hqve more parts than a boxer or flat 6. And speaking of: a flat 6 has a very accessible top or underside where most accessories are mounted, unlike v-8s and v-6s where stuff is hidden on the sides that are harder to access.
Ferdinand porsche, first designed and built the boxer engine for Austrian aeroplanes back in 1910. You make nice video keep up the good work.
Thanks!
this guy is underrated
When I was a kid, I noticed that VW engines (Beetles and Bus) and Porsche engines sounded alike. Soon, Subarus showed up with their funny little cars (yeah, I've been around for awhile) and THEY sounded the same. Once yootube appeared I was learned why. The uneven length of each cylinder's exhaust, the weird squeaky sounds of the fan cooling, etc... anyway, cool video. Thumbs up, new sub.
I enjoyed reading this. Thanks for the compliment Scott!
Must be writing about the Porsche 356. The 911 is very different in the sound to a VW boxer.
The rear weight bias helps when braking because there is a significant amount of weight transfer to the front from the rear. The distribution of weight can approach 50/50 under high deceleration.
I have 2 Boxster's, a 2004 manual base, and a 2009 'S' with PDK. Hard to argue against a mid engine flat six in terms of handling dynamics. For driving around town I prefer the manual base 986. It's great fun, and relatively inexpensive. If you're young and just starting out it's a great car to own. Enjoyed the video.
That sounds awesome. I have a feeling I’ll be buying something along those lines in the next 10 years. The temptation is too great lol. I enjoyed the comment, thanks for the compliment and for watching
I agree the 986 flat six is such a blast after 20 years of reliable ownership I stepped up and now enjoy the 718 flat four which also seems quite affordable for what you get to drive
Absolutely!
i love my lil boxer 4 cylinder in my fr-s it gives the car amazing handling dynamics i hope to own a porsche one day
I ride a BMW motorcycle. With a boxer of course. Smooth as a sowing machine. The servicing is easy, just because the cylinders are so accessible. I always wondered why no other brand uses it, except for Honda in their GoldWings. The ground clearing is enough. A boxer in a motorcycle has one little problem: putting your legs out in front is hardly possible.
One of my favorite builds was a Subaru EJ25. Damn smooth and fast-revving.
The Boxster is a very fun reliable more affordable way to drive a Porsche
As an Owner of a 1971 Porsche 911T which still runs w 1.3 million miles on the original engine I can elaborate on some points. They need near zero maintainence; my carb was set once, after that just sparkplugs - this is due to the high precision and counter balanced forces that you elaborate on. Another aspect you didn't mention is wear - a flat engine starts with oil still in the cylindars; as a result it does burn some oil; but with other engines gravity drains oil so they start nearly dry. Driving the car properly is also key to any cars longevity; keeping in the power range and not lagging your engine is very important.
Which brand of Carb?, sounds like your car had the italian carbies. The German carbies were not as reliable.
911’s less so but 718 cayman and boxter although more so the boxter are very easy to work on they have a large misconception that it is hard to work on them if you have a lift it is effortless you don’t have a big steering rack impeding access from bottom of engine you can get at the front of the engine form the back of your seat where porsche has provided a huge port big enough to service even major things like an alternator and you have excellent side access through wheel wells and you can remove the rear bumper for even more access and there is no radiator there to limit access. The top of the engine can be accessed by putting the convertible roof in service position. The big thing is Porsches reliability these cars depreciate slower than toyotas and refuse to die too so you won’t find yourself needing to work on them almost at all.
first 30 years, boxer configuration was the only engine used by Porsche, then for another twenty, the boxer was the biggest seller. I am a big fan of the boxer, though I lament the passing of the aircooled boxer engine. Wasser cooler is so much more complicated and when higher mileages are reached, so many more components start to fail on the wasser cooler. Not so the air cooler.
Just remembered the Porsche Mooney too. Don't know a lot about it, but was certainly a unique airplane.
It's amazing the power they make for the size. The weinkle or rotary engine is just as amazing, but not as reliable or fuel efficient.
Awesome video, thank you. Another boxer that was out there was there years ago is Alfasud. A delightful car to drive, magnificent road holding and a great sound. It's downfall was rust.
Glad you enjoyed it. I will have to look that up, thanks for sharing!
There really is no question about the success of the Porsche flat 6. They compete with cars that have engines larger in displacement and still are competitive. The longevity has been proven as the materials used are superior to most. Yes, parts and maintenance are expensive but the performance and longevity of a well maintained flat 6 keeps one smiling.
Can I assume you talked about the lower CG? Porsche claimed that but used a V in the CGT. When questioned, they said “the vast majomajority of weight in an engine is in the bottom of the V so it’s actually got a better CG than a flat engine.
I did mention that. That’s interesting, I haven’t heard of that. I will look into it now though. Thanks for commenting
Boxer engines are genius engineering: the only one American car with this solution was the Tucker in 1949 !
Thats right I totally forgot about that. I saw the tucker 48 prototype last year, it blew my mind. Very interesting story too
@@DrivenbyMatt : Yessss! A really futuristic car, however having no chance against the Big ones.
Nice overview. Well done and good editing!
Thanks!!
Love the Porsche brand and the Boxer engines, nothing sounds line a flat six! Currently own a 2021 Spyder.
Awesome! Thanks for sharing
Fantastic sound, deep, feels like power on tap ready to go!
my understanding, and i am not an engineer, the 2 best engines from an engineers standpoint is an inline 6 and a V-12 (V12 is essentially 2 x inline 6)
Try a rotary engine driven car some day,, like amazing...
Apex seals just enter chat 😂
I _am_ a mechanical engineer; I vote boxer.
Disclaimer: I have owned two boxers (914 & Boxster), but never an inline six or V-12. Of course, Porsche also made a flat 12 (917), and Ferrari as well; they’re the best. But for what _I_ (and probably you) can afford…
I am an engineer and while I love both of those configurations but I prefer a flat 6. But a sound engineer would prefer a V10 to any of them.
Those are inherently smooth.
Boxer type engines provide less bearing load--the weight 9of con rod and cylinders tend to balance out some of the load. Theoretically, this should provide longer crankshaft and bearing life. Most aircraft engines that are air-cooled use this style of engine, or multi-cylinder variants.
I have lusted after a flat six boxer for quite some time and now I’m happy to say I have one - a Subaru Outback may not be in the same league as any 911 but it is supremely smooth and there is a very muted grumble pushing me along - maybe a 911 in my next lifetime 😉
Love it! I sometimes drive a Subaru crosstrek. Decent car. Not sure how to feel about the CVT. It’s definitely interesting.
@@DrivenbyMattFun fact, the cross trek is the slowest production car on the market right now
It’s painfully slow. It’s nearly a punishment in our family when u have to drive it 😭
The Porsche 911 is a timeless piece.❤
Well explained, and when you drive a 911 you can really feel the benefits, the way it feels so planted. It's very different from most other high performance cars with a front engine.
I love 911s, have one. But the rear engine is a negative, in and of itself, except under braking. Matt didn’t quite explain it fully, but when the weight shifts under hard braking, you’ve got good weight distribution. The engine location works because Porsche has spent decades refining the chassis.
Remember the 930? They called them widowmakers because of how they handled under certain conditions.
My Cayman technically bangles better, because it’s mid-engines.
Bangles? Nah, that’s a a girl band.
Handles!
Nice video! Subaru would be a great topic for another video. I wonder which manufacturer has produced the largest number of boxer engines over the life of the brand.
Thanks! Great suggestion, I’ll look into that
Great video dude, keep it up and I'm sure you'll be up there with all the other big name car channels soon.
Thank you, stuff like this really keeps me motivated and I really appreciate it.
Taking a V engine and opening it to 180 degree doesn’t make it a boxer engine. The difference is in the crankshaft
Yes that’s correct. I’ll have to be more explicit in my wordage lol. Thanks for the comment
Nice video Matt, keep up the good work sir. 🤘 I also highly recommend owning a Porsche as soon as you possibly can, trust me it'll put a smile on your face every time you drive it.
Thanks John, that’s my goal haha hopefully Ill be able to get one
Great video, short and simple! Wish more cars that are awd use the boxer engine, but it does cost more to make and service, if you have ever replace a simple task like the spark plugs on an inline or V engine compare to a boxer/flat engine you will know. Porsche flat engine are quite reliable and completely make sense, low and wide to sit on the rear drive wheels, just look at the 4 litre naturally aspirated masterclass engine in the 911 GT3 rs and revs to 9000rpm too, just amazing.
Thanks! I appreciated reading your comment
First, you get a like because you say Porsche more correctly than most others. Usually, I shut off the video the moment I hear the person mangle the man's name. The flat layout is good because it sits so low in the car, but at the same time, it's hard to get to. General Motors also put boxer engines in the Corvair.
Hahah thank you. I’m glad my several years of German paid off
0:36 - Not quite, as the crankshaft configurations are quite different. There are 180 degree V engines and it's the crankshaft configuration that sets them apart from boxer engines.
Wonderful video and thank you. I must say I'm very happy with mine.
Great to hear. Thanks a lot!
Should have explained the difference between a flat 6 and a boxer 6. They are not quite the same. Shared vs unshared crank pin.
Yeah true probably would’ve been a good thing to include
I just leaned something new thank you
And because of the different configuration one has piston pairs moving together the other has them moving opposite eachother
1979 911 sc with 320k on the clock. She starts with the first turn of the key. Love the boxer engine.
That's awesome, I love to hear it.
Very informative video, I really enjoyed it. It makes me wonder if the boxer could be coupled with the old timey VW automatic (semi) tranny and coupled with a 356 . . Always wondered that
Thanks!!
Only if you wanted to ruin the value of the 356. They are very valuable now.
my 3.4l Boxser sounds amazing. That's all you need.
thanks for the upload, i liked the video matt
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks!
A nice production...you should mention Subaru as well because I also have a Subie 🙂
Thanks!
Fantastic video! So to the point and engaging
Means a lot thank you!!
Well, for 20 years they’ve sold more suvs and sedans with V8 and V6 than all the sports cars.
Most light aircraft are powered by flat 4s, 6s, as well as some rather rare 8s. The main reasons for this choice were a) less vibrations (although still quite a lot for the light structure of an airplane), and b) easier to air cool, as you rightly said. Moreover, the problem of difficult access for maintenance, that exists in cars as you stated, does not exist in aircraft, as the engine(s) sit in cowl(s), that can be opened on both sides, or even easily entirely removed in minutes.
Although those engines, for Porsche as well as for light aircraft, are designs dating back to the 1930s... so getting very much obsolete. The future is to powerplants MUCH lighter and smaller for a given power, with much flatter power and torque curves to the point of requiring no transmission box, requiring very little cooling, almost noiseless, inducing zero vibration, much cheaper to build, requiring next to zero maintenance over much longer life times. Oh, and BTW, they also require much less (in terms of $) of a different "fuel": electrons!
The sound of an NA Flat Six is definitely not obsolete.
I had a Tesla for five years. I’m pro-EV, but not at the expense of everything else. Horses for courses.
@@m5pilot397 You need noise to reach satisfaction?!?! For me, noise is rather repulsive, whether it comes from my own car, or even worse, someone else's!
I made up with it for decades, like everybody else, and didn't complain as long as they were no alternative... and definitely preferred a good -sounding engine to a bad-sounding one. But now that it is available, I much prefer a quiet ride, possibly with a high-quality rendering of my favorite music.
Well, I guess my grand-son also needs his comforter!
I really feel sorry for you.
The two great engines I have experience with is the BMW E36 and the Porsche Boxster 987.
The VW bug employed an air cooled 4 cylinder boxer engine which was magnificent, also in its simplicity, and very reliable, albeit noisy and not so efficient. But it was good enough to be bored out and pairs were used as aircraft engine s by a French company who built light aircraft for use in places like Africa and Australia by flying doctors, among others. Twin boxer engines from BMW were also used to power the original Citroen Deux chevaux in post war France.
The valve heads used to separate from the stem. Kind of ruins your whole day.
Cars with a VW air cooled boxer engines became(again) a trend in Brazil... the market of new manufactory parts of these machines are hot again
Lookup the Fuhrman 4 cam racing engines of the mid to late 1950's. I had one in a 1954 VW Bug years ago and it hauled a$$!
It's a wide engine that can be problematic.
True
@@DrivenbyMattbollocks , why it should be problematic? It is one of the most reliable construction so far!
@@123antimiro packaging.
Hasn’t been an issue for Porsche, though.
Or Subaru.
Really? What problems does it cause? owned boxer engined cars both VW and Porsche and Steyr Puch Haflinger. Wide motor was never problematic for me.
Cool video. But Porsche does not seem quite as devoted to the boxer engine as Subaru. As soon as they put the engine up front in any of their cars, Porsche decided to use inline engines for V engines. IMO, their sedans and SUVs would be much cooler if they had boxer engines. Maybe even some Boxer flat 8 engines.
You have a good point - I think I might look into it for another video. I could address some of these things. Thanks for the compliment and for the good feedback!
Straight answer, boxer built for rear engine Beatle then the first i 911 used spare Beatle parts including Beatle engine
No more no less
0:48 do you mean primary and secondary balance?
Not to get too technical but i just got a new 718 cayman with a 2l boxer 4, the car is amazing and the engine is a masterpiece of engineering. (Ps: if you are ever able to get a Porsche sports car get it and you wont regret it)
That sounds incredible, did you get the 6 speed or the PDK? If I ever get my hands on one you'll definitely see it on this channel haha. Thanks for sharing.
boxers are all right, their lack of mid-long term reliability makes them a bit scary but when its used in a sports car, a bit more tempting...the noise they produce is a bit undewhelming compared to say a 4 cyl honda and the cars they come in is a problem too lol, id love to buy one in a light chassis but they juste dont exist for less money...cool engines !
good video 👍
Thanks!
Porsche also perfected the intake manifold so the amount of power they're able to get out of those flat-sixes even before introducing forced induction is always impressive. Porsche also has invested something to the tune of $60 million dollars in research for synthetic gasoline that is carbon neutral, so I wouldn't call internal combustion quits just yet. Wartime Germany in WW2 had been making synthetic gasoline using pea coal because of international embargos and Porsche had designed the gas engines for many of the tanks including the Tiger and King Tiger, so there is precedent for this.
That would be exciting. Hopefully it happens, I’m holding out hope. I don’t think the complete ev switch will happen as quickly as people think. Lots of infrastructure investment has to occur before EVs are ruling the roads. Anyway, thanks for sharing
@@DrivenbyMatt You're gonna love this then, the announcement about them investing in synthetic gasoline was after Porsche set a new EV record with the Taycan Turbo around the Nurburgring. A maddening time of 7 minutes and 33 seconds and then they go "Hey our new performance EV, the Taycan, just set a record for EVs. To celebrate this achievement we're going to invest a chunk of change into synthetic gasoline because we love the 911 so much"
They say the intake with the controlled valve chambers actually has positive pressure which in affect is making light boost without a turbo or supercharger
I've always wondered, Does the high performance porsches 911 use a Flat or boxer engine? Sometimes it says it's a boxer, sometimes it says it's a flat, I think like the GT3, GT3RS uses Flat engines, but Turbo S, and other more comfortable ones, use Boxer engine, right?
A flat engine just means the pistons lay flat and horizontally opposed on the opposite side of a central crankshaft. There are two main configurations (that I know of) for a flat engine. One is the boxer engine, and the other is the 180 degree V configuration (think of a V8 stretched to 180 degrees). In a boxer engine, each piston has its own crankpin. In a 180 degree V configuration, the pistons share a crankpin. All of Porsche's flat engines are boxer engines. So the GT3, GT3RS, Turbo S, 718, etc. all have boxer engines (either 4 or 6 cylinder).
So in summary, all boxer engines are flat engines, but not all flat engines are boxer engines. Hopefully this helps. Thanks for commenting!
Can you make your background music any louder? Had to turn this video off in the first 30 seconds.
Good video, although I have never been a fan of Porsche engines, they are certainly wonderful power plants. I fervently hope the ICE are never overtaken by EVs. Gasoline and oil in my veins.
Thanks, and I agree. I hope ICEs have plenty of life left so long as people like u and me are around lol. I appreciate the comment
If you keep putting out content of this quality, this channel is going to blow up.
Thank you! I really appreciate it that means a lot.
Add a good number of aircraft engine, Subaru as well as a number of other auto mfgs through the years made flat and boxer design engines.
RIP BMW R series bikes... 😢
Wish the video was longer!
Haha thanks! Next time!
Great video! But the M Flag behind is rather distracting lol
But awesome. I have an older M5.
He’s for equal time.
I'm still figuring out the background scenery lol. Working with minimal resources right now. What generation M5 do you own? I'm a fan myself
The “disadvantage” of having two cylinder heads also applies to V8s but that’s never been considered as a negative for that engine configuration. Also, the digression into the mounting position of the engine and the advantages for 911 performance is irrelevant to the features of the boxer engine itself. It’s the reason why older 911s were prone to bouts of severe oversteer which has had to be tamed by electronic intervention and control systems in later models. The mid-engined Boxster/Cayman, which also uses the boxer engine but doesn’t rate a mention, is a superior design in terms of handling in most real-world driving conditions. All that aside, an interesting video though.
I genuinely appreciate you pointing these out. I admit those are flaws in the writing that I failed to consider when making this and your feedback is extremely helpful for future videos. Thanks for the comment
I had a Subaru with a Boxer engine. Never again!
systemic faults. head gasket failures, excessive oil consumption, and oil mixing in with the coolant, among others.
Problems started at 130,000 miles
To expensive and complicated to repair.
Boxer engines and a battery (hybrid) make more sense than EV’s. Power to charge the battery. Remember the Chevrolet Corvair. Imagine that nowadays in a hybrid format. A flat 8 in a Corvette wrapped in fibreglass in hybrid form?
Subaru também usa com sucesso, tanto turbo como aspirado.
ICE's will never be "phased out". Thank God.
great speed and performance, but the engines literally beats itself to death prematurely... just ask any Subaru owner
Well done, professional delivery, and no usual young guy silliness; doubt if you'll be a broke-ass college student for long.
Thanks that means a lot. That’s the delivery I’m going for
No way an expert, but my understanding is that there is uneven piston ring ware due to gravity acting on the underside of the piston.
How is it strange to think about a boxer engine and Porsche ! ? Know your history!
Why Subaru boxer engines sucks while Porsche's are good and reliable?
Subaru is a relatively small company from an RD budget perspective and their material costs and margins are much slimmer than Porsche. Subaru should have been buying engines from another company instead of designing their own all these years.
@@black99rt also because Subaru is usually cheaper people are less likely to service them properly and on time. Porsche doesn't have this problem, because if you can afford Porshe you will maintain it properly.
I'm driving a WRX. Should I say more?
how did you talk about boxer engines without talking about Subaru!!
I intended to make the video specific to Porsche and their history with boxer engines, and not boxer engines in general. Not sure if that was a mistake or not haha. Didn’t want it to get too diluted from the overall purpose. Anyway, lm always looking to improve these so I’ll make note for future reference. Thanks for the comment
Because Subaru makes the worst boxer engines known to man
Fair or not, there are many stories floating about regarding Subaru engines.
Porsche has been making and using boxer engines far longer than Subaru has.
Don’t forget about Toyota GR86. Although that it a Subaru clone
Great performance but at the toll of astronomical maintenance effort 😅😅
Incorrect. You’ve owned how many?
Perhaps you should have mentioned why they are called Boxer?
Perhaps
I'm too clumsy for you
911's were air cooled until the 996 generation. The 993 was the last air cooled generation.
Yeah, that’s what I meant but I now see why you say that. I meant “until the 993 generation,” meaning the 993 generation was the last to be air cooled. But I didn’t recognize that it could always be interpreted as exclusive. I’ll try to be more specific w language next time, thats on me. thanks for pointing that out
No biggie. Through the 993 might have been better verbiage.
@m5pilot397 Good point. I appreciate this thank you
GM SB V8!
Legend.