I did quite a bit of this on my Super Beetle, minus the cage. And I won my last RallyCross. Solid information as always, it's almost like you guys know what you're talking about!
Great content, just wish you guys used a Lav or something to reduce that shop's natural echo. Keep the how to "Racecar" content coming, I've won two regional rallycross events so far using a car i built in my gravel driveway.
@@Teamoneilrally One relatively easy thing to do to absorb sound is to put something that is semi air permeable (perforated metal sheets, fabric, fine lattice, etc) _almost_ against the wall, with an inch or so gap between the two. In other words, drapes. Hell, some old carpets glued to the walls would work.
Love the content you guys produce and awesome to see you making so many videos. Quick tip, it might be worth it for you to get a lavalier mic system (the microphones that clip onto the collar of your shirt). In big rooms like this it gets pretty echo-y and those will help with toning that down as well as removing any distracting background noises.
Thanks for the kind words. We ordered two LAVs and they came in last week, hopefully audio quality goes way up here in our next few videos! Thanks for watching and everyone's patience with the quality.
Thanks guys!! This info is priceless for us do it yourselfers. While we nubies are building our cars are there any thoughts about what we should be bringing to our first rallies like tools and extra parts? Essentially how do we make it through our first couple of rallies?
Totally depends what you are running for a service vehicle, if you're just servicing out of a pickup truck you'll be a lot more constrained than if you have a U-Haul or box truck. Basically: bring everything you can for spares and tools just in case. What a lot of teams do is use the same type of car for a recce car as well so you have it there too in case you need to steal anything... If you're racing a VW Golf there's nothing better than having a second complete VW Golf sitting there in case you roll it and need a windshield or a door or something, or forget how some wiring should go, or anything else.
`The dry ice thing works like a charm. Just be sure to get enough. I found that it works best when you have about 3 inch thick layer of it. You can scoop it around to different parts of the car once you're done with one bit. Just for god's dake protect yourself from that stuff with gloves and what have you as this will definitly leave a mark. I heard some people put it in isopropyl acohol to increase effectiveness which I haven't tried myself yet. But it works like a charm, leaves no marks and ensures a pristine result. Just remember, better to have too much dry ice as opposed to too little.
That's amazing, really great info. I just picked up a 17 Fiesta ST, so I love all the Fiesta content. I was wondering if you guys had any 4x108 old wheels that you didn't need or some old gravel tires for sale? I've got a few rallycross events coming up. This might not be the right place to ask, but figured why not. Thanks and great video again!
They do sell (new) the R1 Fiesta, OZed 15x6.5 gravel spec wheels in a 4x108, exclusively made up for M-Sport by OZed, but these are on worldwide back order right now, and cost $250.00 each + shipping. They would not have any of these used from any actual rally cars/teams since they convert everything to the 5x108 PCD bolt pattern hubs (and those 5x108 OZed 'disc' wheels) used on all of the R2 class and up Fiestas (as well as ALL Foci as standard, of course). They might have some of the used factory option 4x108 alloys in a 15"/16" size, or some steelies , from the school cars though (or maybe even some used Method MR501 VTs in 4x108 15x7)?
Quick question - the bracket being removed around 4:00 looks like a structural part of the chassis, in addition to just being a place to bolt a seat rail to. Do you do structural analysis on these things, replace the part with a lighter equivalent, or just not worry about the original chassis integrity because there's a roll cage?
We start with the M-Sport Build Book for the FIA Fiesta R2 spec rally car, basically the bible for building production-based Fiesta rally cars. M-Sport has been running Ford's World Rally Championship program forever now and employ teams of engineers that plan these builds down to the last wire in the harness and rivet, when you get the R2 kit from them it comes with the full build manual. We do pick and choose from that manual, not every customer has the needs or budget for a full-spec R2 with the sequential transmission and everything, but it's where we start. www.m-sport.co.uk/motorsport/rallying/m-sport-the-cars/fiesta-r2-details
What about increasing the amount of weld points to increase chassis stiffness. Is it only done for high end rally cars, or is it even necessary with an added roll cage? I'm guessing its different from car to car, so what kind of cars would benefit?
We shot that video at the same time and we're literally editing that video right now, it'll be up soon but in a nutshell yes you'll want to do some seam welding at least around the structural areas like strut towers, frame rails, etc.
Freezeoff in a can found at orileys is a super efficent way to remove sound deadening. spray on let it sit for 30 seconds and wack it with a hammer, breaks off into nice chunks and doesnt make a smokey, toxic mess
or you can use a belt grinder to do the same thing as a spot weld cutter, especially if you are working on pieces that are being removed. That way you can save the expensive cutters for areas where drilling is the best option. Same thing as done in collision repair.
What about the issue of changing weight distribution when lightening? How much of a consideration is that? Do you want to move the center of gravity forward?
the lighter the car is, the easier you can balance it out with balancing weights, according to driving conditions. So for example, you start with a car that weighs 1500kg, and you can remove 300kg. At that moment your car weighs 1200kg, if you then add 100kg of ballast to get a good weight distribution, it is still 200kg less, than what you started out with, and your car is perfectly balanced.
In a rally car, the standard thing to do is go as light as you reasonably can then move the components around when you put it back together to dial in the balance. If you can move the engine mounting back a little, battery and spare tire/tools in the back, driver and co-driver seat as far back and low as possible, you get the idea. The goal is usually to get as close to 50/50 as possible.
I personally found that if you drive a FWD, it's probably not an issue as you'd generally want a bit more weight on your front end. All other scenarios, try to do what O'Neil says and balance stuff out with your components.
They put the car on scales, literally. (They have special scales for corner balancing, which involves adjusting the springs so the car's weight is evenly distributed on all 4 wheels.) Add together the weight on front and compare them to the rear gives you the percentage of weight front to rear.
That would defeat the purpose of a roll cage. The reinforcements are needed where the chassis is at the most risk of collapsing on impact. It also reduces chassis flex from those areas.
Glass has a plastic laminate over it so does most higher end polycarbonate windshields and it won’t scratch like the stuff you buy at the hardware store
I am wondering if you guys have some advice for those of us building at a more grassroots level, like Rallycross. What are the things you could do short of a cage? Are stiffer motor mounts or suspension bushings important? Are there spring options that don't lower the car? Should you always just go for as much cooling as possible (aftermarket radiators, oil coolers or intercoolers)? How about LSDs?
Assuming you're running a Fiesta ST: The side motor mounts are fine unless you're jumping a lot or driving very hard on really rough roads, but definitely replace the bottom mount to the subframe that limits the motor's ability to roll and pivot. We like these: www.mountuneusa.com/mountune-Roll-Restrictor-Fiesta-ST-2013-2017-p/2364-rr-aa.htm
As for suspension, there are a few options but the best budget solution is to get the Bilstein R1 setup from M-Sport. m-sport.co.uk/motorsport/rallying/m-sport-the-cars/fiesta-r1-details We are the US distributers for their stuff and have boxes coming over fairly regularly for the rally team, get in touch at motorsport@teamoneil.com and we can get some on the way.
Best cooling you can, skidplate definitely, yes you'll want an LSD at some point (stock it's open and uses the traction control to help it, we use some Quaife and some Cusco now I think) just depends what your goals/budget are how crazy you want to go.
Team O'Neil Rally School Some folks have recommended the Wavetrac due to the way it behaves when a wheel is bouncing or off the ground a lot, maybe in your experience that's not much of a factor?
Team O'Neil Rally School It looks like the R1 uses Bilstein's universal motorsport monotube? I assume that would not be suitable for daily/street use because of the periodic maintenance required?
How much does a stripped frame approximately weigh? I'm asking bc I have 2 of my old cars I plan to strip down and turn one into a track car and the other into a rally car. I won't be able to do this work for 2 years while I work on the road and save up a bunch of money. Right now they take up 2 garage spots, and I'm wondering if it would be possible/worth doing the initial strip and consolidate the 2 frames into 1 spot, either on top of each other, or flipped up on sides next to each other. It kind of sucks keeping my old cars in the garage, and my brand new car in the driveway.
Have you seen a car rotisserie? You can put one (or two) together pretty quickly and affordably if you have a welder, would solve your storage issue and also makes grinding and welding on the floors and rockers a DREAM. Put them on casters and you can flip the shells around and push them around anywhere you want.
Team O'Neil Rally School that's another question I had! Do you have to make those, or can you buy them? That would be ideal as I could move them in and out of garage if needed, and would help when I finally do start doing work.
It's a great way to go, we've made a few over the years but they are probably available for sale... Body shop / restoration folks use them a lot especially for hot rods and older cars that need rust repair underneath.
Team O'Neil Rally School sorry to waste your time, a quick search showed me a ton of info to sift through! Thanks for the info! I never knew what they were called, and now that I know it seems too obvious!
no, that would put you in the modified class. You can read the SCCA rally cross rules here -> www.scca.com/downloads/43364-2019-scca-rally-cross-rules/download
Yea go to harbor Freight and ask for the one that flies apart at 3k rpm. Dude use a home depot brand. Crist. Do you need someone to hold your hand or are you going to make grownup decisions for once in your life.
We seam weld the chassis and then put some seam sealer back in after welding where rust could be an issue, check out th-cam.com/video/bj7EjaSNDfw/w-d-xo.html
The main thing with rally cars is that they have to be road legal, hence they need a VIN number and all the paperwork. If you were building a track-only car or for hillclimbs or something you didn't need to put a license plate on it, definitely could get more creative!
Mountune is our go-to for most of the Fiesta ST stuff, but in the rally cars we just run straight back all the way, no mufflers and the converter at the tailpipe.
What diameter exhaust do you use on the R2 cars (or even the built, O2WD, STs), vs. what you use on the R5/O4WD Fiestas? Also, whenever you use a rear mounted catcon, is there a heating element installed to help it 'light off' and actually be functional, or is it just there to satisfy the rules, and function is not an issue at all??
To lighten the car could I get rid of the paint, spray some bedliner to the underside of the car or epoxy primer, then for the top could I just clear coat the metal or plasti dip it?
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
I did quite a bit of this on my Super Beetle, minus the cage. And I won my last RallyCross. Solid information as always, it's almost like you guys know what you're talking about!
Love to see you guys do an entire build series.
Great content, just wish you guys used a Lav or something to reduce that shop's natural echo. Keep the how to "Racecar" content coming, I've won two regional rallycross events so far using a car i built in my gravel driveway.
Lav mics on the way, this big shop is much worse than our old one! Good luck out there and have fun with it, here anytime if we can help.
It's not echo it's reverb of the garage.
@@cranky1812 reverb is echo
@@Teamoneilrally One relatively easy thing to do to absorb sound is to put something that is semi air permeable (perforated metal sheets, fabric, fine lattice, etc) _almost_ against the wall, with an inch or so gap between the two. In other words, drapes. Hell, some old carpets glued to the walls would work.
I wear a full welding jacket when I use the wire wheel. My friend at work had to help pull a wire out of my chest. It went in deeper than I thought.
What!?
?
Gotta let the tool do the work. If you push down the wheel into the working surface you will get hurt.
Yeah, a wire wheel is one of the most dangerous things in the shop
holy fuck ude buy a new wire wheel
Love the content you guys produce and awesome to see you making so many videos. Quick tip, it might be worth it for you to get a lavalier mic system (the microphones that clip onto the collar of your shirt). In big rooms like this it gets pretty echo-y and those will help with toning that down as well as removing any distracting background noises.
Thanks for the kind words. We ordered two LAVs and they came in last week, hopefully audio quality goes way up here in our next few videos! Thanks for watching and everyone's patience with the quality.
Thanks guys!! This info is priceless for us do it yourselfers. While we nubies are building our cars are there any thoughts about what we should be bringing to our first rallies like tools and extra parts? Essentially how do we make it through our first couple of rallies?
Totally depends what you are running for a service vehicle, if you're just servicing out of a pickup truck you'll be a lot more constrained than if you have a U-Haul or box truck. Basically: bring everything you can for spares and tools just in case. What a lot of teams do is use the same type of car for a recce car as well so you have it there too in case you need to steal anything... If you're racing a VW Golf there's nothing better than having a second complete VW Golf sitting there in case you roll it and need a windshield or a door or something, or forget how some wiring should go, or anything else.
Ha ha ha, I think my girlfriend/co-driver might kill me if we start towing around a second car!! But it makes a lot of sense. Thanks guys!!
`The dry ice thing works like a charm. Just be sure to get enough. I found that it works best when you have about 3 inch thick layer of it. You can scoop it around to different parts of the car once you're done with one bit. Just for god's dake protect yourself from that stuff with gloves and what have you as this will definitly leave a mark. I heard some people put it in isopropyl acohol to increase effectiveness which I haven't tried myself yet. But it works like a charm, leaves no marks and ensures a pristine result. Just remember, better to have too much dry ice as opposed to too little.
That's amazing, really great info. I just picked up a 17 Fiesta ST, so I love all the Fiesta content. I was wondering if you guys had any 4x108 old wheels that you didn't need or some old gravel tires for sale? I've got a few rallycross events coming up. This might not be the right place to ask, but figured why not. Thanks and great video again!
They do sell (new) the R1 Fiesta, OZed 15x6.5 gravel spec wheels in a 4x108, exclusively made up for M-Sport by OZed, but these are on worldwide back order right now, and cost $250.00 each + shipping.
They would not have any of these used from any actual rally cars/teams since they convert everything to the 5x108 PCD bolt pattern hubs (and those 5x108 OZed 'disc' wheels) used on all of the R2 class and up Fiestas (as well as ALL Foci as standard, of course).
They might have some of the used factory option 4x108 alloys in a 15"/16" size, or some steelies , from the school cars though (or maybe even some used Method MR501 VTs in 4x108 15x7)?
David Hinkes That's correct, I ended up emailing TO and working on getting a set of the M-Sport wheels.
fiesta st.. yikes
Quick question - the bracket being removed around 4:00 looks like a structural part of the chassis, in addition to just being a place to bolt a seat rail to. Do you do structural analysis on these things, replace the part with a lighter equivalent, or just not worry about the original chassis integrity because there's a roll cage?
We start with the M-Sport Build Book for the FIA Fiesta R2 spec rally car, basically the bible for building production-based Fiesta rally cars. M-Sport has been running Ford's World Rally Championship program forever now and employ teams of engineers that plan these builds down to the last wire in the harness and rivet, when you get the R2 kit from them it comes with the full build manual. We do pick and choose from that manual, not every customer has the needs or budget for a full-spec R2 with the sequential transmission and everything, but it's where we start. www.m-sport.co.uk/motorsport/rallying/m-sport-the-cars/fiesta-r2-details
@@Teamoneilrally Is that M-Sport from Great Britain?
What about increasing the amount of weld points to increase chassis stiffness. Is it only done for high end rally cars, or is it even necessary with an added roll cage? I'm guessing its different from car to car, so what kind of cars would benefit?
We shot that video at the same time and we're literally editing that video right now, it'll be up soon but in a nutshell yes you'll want to do some seam welding at least around the structural areas like strut towers, frame rails, etc.
I'm guessing extra welding mostly increases strength, not stiffness. The latter is achieved by added elements.
Freezeoff in a can found at orileys is a super efficent way to remove sound deadening. spray on let it sit for 30 seconds and wack it with a hammer, breaks off into nice chunks and doesnt make a smokey, toxic mess
or you can use a belt grinder to do the same thing as a spot weld cutter, especially if you are working on pieces that are being removed. That way you can save the expensive cutters for areas where drilling is the best option. Same thing as done in collision repair.
What about the issue of changing weight distribution when lightening? How much of a consideration is that? Do you want to move the center of gravity forward?
the lighter the car is, the easier you can balance it out with balancing weights, according to driving conditions. So for example, you start with a car that weighs 1500kg, and you can remove 300kg. At that moment your car weighs 1200kg, if you then add 100kg of ballast to get a good weight distribution, it is still 200kg less, than what you started out with, and your car is perfectly balanced.
In a rally car, the standard thing to do is go as light as you reasonably can then move the components around when you put it back together to dial in the balance. If you can move the engine mounting back a little, battery and spare tire/tools in the back, driver and co-driver seat as far back and low as possible, you get the idea. The goal is usually to get as close to 50/50 as possible.
I personally found that if you drive a FWD, it's probably not an issue as you'd generally want a bit more weight on your front end. All other scenarios, try to do what O'Neil says and balance stuff out with your components.
How do they determine where the center of gravity is within the car?
They put the car on scales, literally. (They have special scales for corner balancing, which involves adjusting the springs so the car's weight is evenly distributed on all 4 wheels.) Add together the weight on front and compare them to the rear gives you the percentage of weight front to rear.
Why isn't the roll cage built into the shell? That is the bars run inside the A,B and C pillars giving more internal room and a bigger safety margin.
That would defeat the purpose of a roll cage. The reinforcements are needed where the chassis is at the most risk of collapsing on impact. It also reduces chassis flex from those areas.
Have you made some measurements before and after? Wonder what's the difference in weight.. acceleration.. lap time maybe? :)
Do yall stitch weld the chassis?
What about how to safely remove things like side airbags and such?
Glass has a plastic laminate over it so does most higher end polycarbonate windshields and it won’t scratch like the stuff you buy at the hardware store
I am wondering if you guys have some advice for those of us building at a more grassroots level, like Rallycross. What are the things you could do short of a cage? Are stiffer motor mounts or suspension bushings important? Are there spring options that don't lower the car? Should you always just go for as much cooling as possible (aftermarket radiators, oil coolers or intercoolers)? How about LSDs?
Assuming you're running a Fiesta ST: The side motor mounts are fine unless you're jumping a lot or driving very hard on really rough roads, but definitely replace the bottom mount to the subframe that limits the motor's ability to roll and pivot. We like these: www.mountuneusa.com/mountune-Roll-Restrictor-Fiesta-ST-2013-2017-p/2364-rr-aa.htm
As for suspension, there are a few options but the best budget solution is to get the Bilstein R1 setup from M-Sport. m-sport.co.uk/motorsport/rallying/m-sport-the-cars/fiesta-r1-details We are the US distributers for their stuff and have boxes coming over fairly regularly for the rally team, get in touch at motorsport@teamoneil.com and we can get some on the way.
Best cooling you can, skidplate definitely, yes you'll want an LSD at some point (stock it's open and uses the traction control to help it, we use some Quaife and some Cusco now I think) just depends what your goals/budget are how crazy you want to go.
Team O'Neil Rally School Some folks have recommended the Wavetrac due to the way it behaves when a wheel is bouncing or off the ground a lot, maybe in your experience that's not much of a factor?
Team O'Neil Rally School It looks like the R1 uses Bilstein's universal motorsport monotube? I assume that would not be suitable for daily/street use because of the periodic maintenance required?
My car has a sunroof. Will I need to replace the roof skin with one that doesn't have a sunroof to meet FIA regulations?
How much does a stripped frame approximately weigh? I'm asking bc I have 2 of my old cars I plan to strip down and turn one into a track car and the other into a rally car. I won't be able to do this work for 2 years while I work on the road and save up a bunch of money. Right now they take up 2 garage spots, and I'm wondering if it would be possible/worth doing the initial strip and consolidate the 2 frames into 1 spot, either on top of each other, or flipped up on sides next to each other. It kind of sucks keeping my old cars in the garage, and my brand new car in the driveway.
Have you seen a car rotisserie? You can put one (or two) together pretty quickly and affordably if you have a welder, would solve your storage issue and also makes grinding and welding on the floors and rockers a DREAM. Put them on casters and you can flip the shells around and push them around anywhere you want.
Team O'Neil Rally School that's another question I had! Do you have to make those, or can you buy them? That would be ideal as I could move them in and out of garage if needed, and would help when I finally do start doing work.
It's a great way to go, we've made a few over the years but they are probably available for sale... Body shop / restoration folks use them a lot especially for hot rods and older cars that need rust repair underneath.
Team O'Neil Rally School sorry to waste your time, a quick search showed me a ton of info to sift through! Thanks for the info! I never knew what they were called, and now that I know it seems too obvious!
For rallycross can you remove a lot of the interior and still stay in the stock class?
no, that would put you in the modified class. You can read the SCCA rally cross rules here -> www.scca.com/downloads/43364-2019-scca-rally-cross-rules/download
time for LAV mics Wyatt
On the way!
Do you have a favorite brand of wire wheel for seam sealer?
Yea go to harbor Freight and ask for the one that flies apart at 3k rpm. Dude use a home depot brand. Crist. Do you need someone to hold your hand or are you going to make grownup decisions for once in your life.
Why do you want to remove all the seam sealer? Isn't keeping water out of those seams still something that you'd want to prevent rust?
We seam weld the chassis and then put some seam sealer back in after welding where rust could be an issue, check out th-cam.com/video/bj7EjaSNDfw/w-d-xo.html
AWESOME VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So in the doors you don’t cut out anything correct?
Oh baby the acoustics.
At this point why not just order the shell by itself? Do they have a part number for those? Or just build around a roll cage?
The main thing with rally cars is that they have to be road legal, hence they need a VIN number and all the paperwork. If you were building a track-only car or for hillclimbs or something you didn't need to put a license plate on it, definitely could get more creative!
Damn, didn't know that.
They have to drive on OPEN public roads to 'transit' to the next (closed to the public) special stage, as well as to any service areas.
Makes sense
what exhaust would you go with in this fiesta ST? To have that rally sound...
Mountune is our go-to for most of the Fiesta ST stuff, but in the rally cars we just run straight back all the way, no mufflers and the converter at the tailpipe.
What diameter exhaust do you use on the R2 cars (or even the built, O2WD, STs), vs. what you use on the R5/O4WD Fiestas?
Also, whenever you use a rear mounted catcon, is there a heating element installed to help it 'light off' and actually be functional, or is it just there to satisfy the rules, and function is not an issue at all??
Wish there was more grassroots budget racing.
To lighten the car could I get rid of the paint, spray some bedliner to the underside of the car or epoxy primer, then for the top could I just clear coat the metal or plasti dip it?
Fiesta means party in Spanish.
Very interesting
awesome
A modern car does not use gallons of paint and paint when it’s heavy has thinners thinners way a lot pain when it’s dry it’s not as heavy as you think
That should’ve said paint when it’s dry doesn’t weigh as much as you think
sound quality would be about appropriate if you were disusing weigh reduction on a Toyota ECHO
What is the legality of removing air bags while still keeping the car street legal?
As long as you register it normally and get whatever inspection is required by the state you live in, you're good to go.
What happened to the audio?
New garage is cavernous, ordering lav mics this week.
echo off
What language are you speaking? So much echo, i dunno wtf this videos about