Love what he said at the end. "If they do not drive the plot forward, get rid of them!" That was one of the gripes I had in the Wonder Woman movie. I liked it a lot but I felt there were too many side characters who ended up being unnecessary.
MrMagnificentMedia I think I might disagree with him and you. A character could be part of the world building. And we all know that depending on how a writer uses the world the story takes place in, the world too (and all components that make that world) could act as an additional character. I think he's just being facile cause it's an interview. It gets nuanced and intricate. Yeah, it's possible to have wasted characters but at same time some so called purposeless characters are there to fill out the world or theme. Back to the Future could've had Marty dealing with his mom in the past. Why give us her mom, dad and siblings? Well, cause there's this element or theme of "family" in the movie, is why. They also help to shape the 1950s world when we explore their home and life.
You think the fact that Wonder Woman, and other films, contains those kinds of character means he's right and the big movie creative people are wrong, or could it be the other way around? Why would they put those characters into films if this guy's advice is so spot on?
@@markrandall6973 That's good logic, but my perception was identical to MrMagnificentMedia. I thought we were casting all the producers' friends. In the time available there wasn't time to sketch the side characters, but they stuffed it in and it was noticeable. The person I was watching with kept saying "Wait, who's he? Is that the same guy who ..." Some people just don't care and ride with it in a passive way, but more active viewers like all the pieces to make sense.
Wonder Woman is apart of a bigger universe, so in my opinion a lot of side characters have meanings or nods to the central viewer who is vested in that world. If it was a one off original story then I would agree.
Knowing and understanding are two different things. It's not enough to know the rules -- you gotta understand the "why" behind them. And they're not so much "rules", so much as "guidelines".
I'm impressed with his ability to speak plainly, which indecently is a quality many would be writers lack. So many screenplays suffer from being way to ambitious in their complexity.
Because there aren't any specific rules to screenwriting, like traffic rules, regardless of how much you read about this structure and that structure. Methods/Ways vary from person to person. All we can do is, watch them all, and take what's best for us from every single of them. :)
Lol that's why I'll use a lot of the advice from ppl like Abbie Emmons, ShaelinWrites, Quotidian Writer, and Hello Future Me & such for the core of a lot of what I consult for writing advice, and then add certain videos from Film Courage along the line for additional context, more so as a "if you're stuck or need some reminding or another context that can also be applicable, watch this" kinda advice Like anything, if you take EVERYTHING as gospel, you're gonna be bouncing into all kinds of stylistic contradictions, but if you take everything with a grain of salt, you'll be able to apply w.e. seems worth trying for that circumstance or moment, and keep or discard whatever does or doesn't work for you and w.e. you're writing
I think the reason many people avoid the love interest is because often times in movies, they are just stuck in there. The love interest is used just for the sake of being used. They don't tie into the theme, push the plot forward or anything, you can take them out of the movie and it would be okay without them. Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom are two example that come to mind.
I don't know why people like Temple of Doom. I think if the Indiana Jones movies came out today, people would pan Temple of Doom for taking a huge step back and being childish compared to Raiders of the Lost Ark.
@@ninjaturtlefan2003 Guy: *hasn't actually watched the movie* Also Guy: *criticizes it* really, dude? I'm not saying it's the best movie ever made, but watch it yourself before you judge it. Can't rely on someone else's opinion.
I love how he delivers information. You realise it's an interview but the answers are so rich questions don't even matter no more .you just want him to keep educating you.
I admire his vocabulary and personality, the amount of info this video has is amazing thanks for the post please make more videos about KEY elements or basic steps to writing Thank you
i think that it's important to remark that he is talking about formuleic story telling. there are some stories which wouldn't work with this formula and characters. but it's ok, this is very commercialy focused it's important to know what you are telling and applying the structure and tools that best fit the concept i believe
to drive this point more into home. when he talks about the adversary having to be human (in mind at least). this would fail horribly if you were to apply it to a cthulhu like adversary, because it completely misses the point of what makes cthulhu terrifying. the fact that it is an inhuman creature beyond all understanding and human power. a story about cthulhu using that adversary would probably add an "emisary of cthulhu" of some sort, making the point of the whole thing fly off into the void.
saintmaster22 In fairness, there's a reason the vast majority of Lovecraft's mythos is delivered via short stories. You couldn't make a feature film out of Cthulu without having to either put a visual to the conceptually indescribable (which would defeat the purpose) or just having a man slowly lose his mind in an independent experimental film.
He isn't talking about formula. He's talking about FORM. Stories have a form. Just like all things that earn their name. No inciting incident, no goals, no conflict? I don't know what it is you're writing, but it sure isn't a story.
Haha, I'm so glad to hear about the 4 emotions!!! I've been working on a screenplay and each beat has an emotional change but it's always mad -> happy -> scared etc. and I was lol-ing at my lack of descriptive adjectives, but watching this video, I feel like I'm good! XD
Wow! Another fantastically useful video. I'll use these definitions while working on a 48 hour film project at the end of this week. This viewpoint comes at the perfect time! Thank you!
I feel like a better way to say it would be to say "we like to catagorize plots into 4 types", or "we like to catagorize characters into 14 types" rather than saying "There are only 4 kinds of plots". It's a model for veiwing characters and story but not really a limit to them. Most stories fit into those categories because the categories are so broad, and he admits that there are multiple subtypes. It's like saying there are only two kinds of numbers even numbers and odd numbers. It's true, but there are still infinite even numbers and infinite odd numbers separating them that way is just one way to look at them, and there are other ways that are valid and useful depending on what you're trying to do with them.
I got character categories 1-8 (hero, adversary, mentor, love interest, helper/follower allies, sidekick, adversary agent, gate guardian) Anyone have the rest????
The big idea I take from this vid is the need to further develop my Gate Gaurdian, its like I had them here but they were not fully realized. Now its crystal clear to me after watching this. Thx😃
Something that hindered me when starting out was expecting to have a great story idea very quickly. I've learned that the best ideas take a long time to develope. You have to leave them in the incubator for months before you write a word on the page.
I like the descriptions of the 14 characters (but I was into C.G. Jung and Joseph Campbell) but the real trick is when you are tempted to - write OUT the non-hero non-adversary - character to make them more unique... even if they serve their role in the story... at what point do they threaten to hijack the story... or even in production, when a far more talented actor who’s supposed to be playing the 2nd banana becomes more interesting than the 1st!
He has a book, The Story Solution. You can find it on Amazon. It's very good. His point is to quantify screenwriting, make it teachable. It's hits the same points as a lot of other books, but in a clearer, more concise way. I found it very useful. That's the first half of the book. The second half is something he calls Hero Goal Sequences, which takes the quantifying several steps further. It's definitely higher math. Think of the first half as stuff you should know before you write your script, and the second half as a way to check your work after each draft.
The love interest should personify the growth that the main characters needs. And I think very few young writers actually understand what their main character need to grow. Possibly because they haven’t figured out their own ”hero’s journey” yet.
Going to be honest, all this sounds like a bunch of jargon learned at film school. At the end of the day I don't care about that; I want someone to tell me a compelling story. I don't care how it's done ... I can't imagine Tarantino writing a character and cramming them into the one of 14 categories. He just has an intriguing idea for a scene and let's the characters steal the lines away.
Yeah it seems kind of restrictive. Imagine cutting the old Indian from The Outlaw Josey Wales because he doesnt move the story along...Also those 4 goals Win, Stop, Escape, Retrieve, how would those apply to Stand By Me?
He says that there are no internal goals. The main character needs to have a specific and objective goal. So what is Will Hunting's specific, objective goal?
HA HA! It's like building a Great Big House without knowing anything to achieve so... That's exactly what my Dad did! And He built an Amazing Hilltop Mediterranean style Villa! Along with a dozen or so/less local workers and multiple local contractors! He kept firing then for multiple reasons, ha da : ]
Whatever your opinion of his work, Stephen King has done pretty well with his philosophy: “Story is honorable and trustworthy; plot is shifty, and best kept under house arrest.”
Also No, the internal goal is not separate from the physical goal, in great films they are integrated together, ie the character has to change in order to accomplish the outer physical goal
Can another attempt please be made about the captioning? This man has a quite dulcet voice that the recording method hasn't quite captured, leading to difficulty for me in understanding what he says. Seems the captioner hasn't understood either, as there are 'greyed out' words that I assume they haven't registered. Or perhaps there is a more direct option; can a commenter help me out? When he says there are 4 viable goals in screenwriting, is it: when, stop, escape or retrieve? I'm having difficulty with the first word.
Does anyone know if he explores the ideas of major emotion categories and character types in his book? Or does his book focus only on Hero actions/Plotting Structures?
I'm having such a hard time wrapping my head around the nuances of screenwriting...and at 48 it doesn't seem like I'll be able to get it. I can't seem to formulate a coherent story.
Oh but you can. It took 48 years for all your energies to align. Im 44 and am starting to seriously purpose screenwriting. At 20, when I graduated from college, I had nothing to say. Now.... I've got more stories than I will ever be able to get out. And I bet you do too. WRITE!!!!!!!!!!!
@4:40 Lisbeth of Stig Larsson's trilogy is walking in mad and leaving mad a lot. She is usually mad. Once in a while her character has different emotions, but mostly - she's mad.
These guys talk about certain numbers of things as if they're Platonic solids, but you haven't shown any videos where they give proofs. I'd like to see a video like that.
We actually recorded video of one of Eric Edson's classes where he teaches 6 of the 14 character types - th-cam.com/video/d85qzE6V38E/w-d-xo.html They all can be found in his book which is linked up in the description.
Here's a side note to what I'm about to say, but if you want to write a feature length screenplay and are just getting started, get the book Save the Cat by Blake Snyder. It gives a great structure for movie scripts and while it may sound formulaic, it offers a lot more flexibility than most people realize. Also, he pretty much straight up says that the entire book is just a good suggestion, not a steadfast rule. If you don't have an idea, then think of one. I know this sounds kind of strange and I struggled with this a lot at first. But I have found it effective to just try to constantly think of new ideas. Look for inspiration anywhere you can, whether that be people, work, books, comics, video games or other movies. I'm always just trying to think of inspiration and then when it comes I write a couple of notes about it and let it stew. If you have any more ideas later write those down. Then when you do go to write, you can look through your notes and pick out ideas that stand out to you. Maybe you feel like writing a comedy, what funny ideas have you come up with this week? It's difficult at first but just try and stimulate your brain to think about stories. If you want there are a lot of brainstorming exercises you can find online. You have to work at thinking up ideas, so keep working at it. The first short film I wrote I built in this sort of a way. A cool title popped into my head and I wrote it down. As I went about my day I started thinking about what that title implied about the story and its themes. I just kept thinking up conflicts and characters a phrase or two at a time, did some research, thought some more, and eventually I ended up with a psychological thriller about a schizophrenic man discovering his hallucinations, which was definitely not an idea that would ever immediately pop into my head. Keep trying and keep writing. It gets easier.
Hi Daniel, here's a lecture where Professor Edson covers 6 of the 14 character types. He covers them all in his book The Story Solution. (link for the book in the description)
Far be it from me to disagree with his opening statement about story and plot being the same. Another source from whom I’m taking notes always says that plot is about what happens. Story is about WHY what happens Matters to and transforms the characters. Overly simplified example: A woman gets up and has breakfast and cleans the dishes afterwards. She then vacuums her floor and polishes her dustless furniture. Finally she forced herself to look at the clock on the wall. It’s time. She walks to her window and looks out. The flag is up on her mailbox. She has mail. She smiles humorlessly reminded of the movie with the similar title. Before she can think of another method of procrastinating, she walks to the front door and unlocks it. She opens the door and surveys the yard before stepping out onto the meandering walkway connecting her front door step to the sidewalk in front of her house. She set out for the mailbox making sure to stay on the path. She reached the mailbox, reached in and retrieved the junk mail contained within. She paid all her bills online so all she ever got was junk mail. She headed back toward the house, neither taking her time nor rushing. She looked straight ahead at her front door and made a bee line for it ignoring the path, crushing grass beneath her feet. She entered her house and closed the door locking it once again. She leaned back against the door and smiled. She got a glass of cold water and sat down at her kitchen table after fishing her journal out of the side table. She turned to the placeholder and opened the journal to a blank page. This is Plot. Specifically Status quo. On the nose and mundane? Yes. For most people - but for this woman in particular NO. Here’s why the Plot happening matters to her also known as the woman’s STORY (fear/internal conflict): She hesitated a few seconds to gather her thoughts before she wrote “Day 101. A first today! I made it all the way to the mailbox and back to the house without running on the way back. I couldn’t stay on the path on the return trip but I didn’t run. My heart is still racing even now but I expect that to be the last thing to go away. Tomorrow is Sunday so I’ll have a day to celebrate my progress - before I have to test myself to see if it sticks. I pray it does. Agoraphobia is a bitch but I’m really starting to believe there’s hope for me yet”. Agoraphobia: phobia level fear of open spaces. She is virtually a prisoner in her home due to this fear and is undergoing therapy by emerging from her house and forcing herself to travel the short distance between her house and her mailbox. She’s done it for 100 days but she procrastinates every day before she gets up the courage to venture out. Again it’s her status quo. Clearly the Plot takes on a different significance once you hear the Story narrative/ inner dialogue / journal entry which could be shown on screen or as a voiceover. For me it’s the what happens versus the why it matters to the characters. Put another way, the Story is why the Plot matters. They are two separate things in my understanding. Are they intertwined yes but I don’t think the words are interchangeable. Maybe they are in a screenplay? Because everything has to be visually perceptible? I don’t care about that. Story is connected to internal conflict and plot is connected to external conflict / events and that rings true to me. I’m studying craft with an interest in writing a novel not a screenplay but Story is Story. To be clear, I love everything ELSE this man is saying. 😂😂
Ok, let's start with "win, stop, escape, retrieve". It's either way too broad, to the point of not being useful ("win" can mean literally anything), or plain wrong. Even the generic stuff like revenge doesn't fit any of those categories. Then there's "there are only 4 emotions" bit. No there fucking aren't. "Sad, mad, glad and scared"? Even Inside Out had more. If you clamp melancholy, disappointment, grief and apathy together, what is the point of such categorisation anyway? I'd love to see Kübler-Ross model by this guy. Anyway, I can't watch it any more. Can't stand the guy. He acts like he has some divine authority over screenwriting, claiming one bullshit after another, while all he has to show for it are movies that combined were seen by less people than this video.
Big ideas... I understand structure and the emotions and other things like raising stakes, etc. But I'm weak in understanding character. Something he said was a lot of students least write about love interests... I partly disagree with his guess as to why. I'm willing to bet most find it cliche, cheesy or not as interesting. Furthermore, I'll bet women are least likely to go there because they want to write stories that don't use women for the same 2 dimensions all the time. BUT! Corey Mandell said a serious writer practices their weaknesses.... sigh.. I don't wanna develop romantic interest skill but it looks like I should. Lol Compromise... when I get good at the over all writing skill beyond beginner level, I'll try romantic (puke) interest. XP Heh
I feel the same way, only because it hasn't been written to have more than a 2 dimensional character, in most cases. Sex, Fight, Tenderness, Emotional, Nurturing, etc, are all different aspect or attributes a love interest can have. Sex being the least attractive to me, but is the most prolific in movies. Boring and in some cases, offensive. No depth. Unless it's Kyle Reese and Sarah Conners from the Terminator movie. Remember it has to move the story along, physically. Written brilliantly, it can be 1 scene that changes the hero somehow at the end of the scene. Hero is glad, then sad, for example.
It's great that somebody can obtain and organise all this analytical information from a film, but watch the creatives crumble when they try to take all of that and assimilate it into their screenplays/films. As close to impossible as anything could be.
obviously a very experienced and talented chap, fair enough, but i can’t help but find it funny when people impart these apparently cast iron platitudes that are near-biblical in alleged accuracy and use, then... “there are only 4 emotions, don’t you know that?” then moments later “well obviously there are others and ones between”
Not sure about 4 plot goals. For my taste, the best stories have them only as means for intermediate conflicts at best. Like, Melancholy or Paranoia Agent. There are good stories with these goals, but even in some very popular examples, like Twin Peaks they aren't too real. I mean, they are probably needed for most stories, but placing them as foundation is questionable Also regarding necessity of change, I'm not sure it's a must. Most popular sitcoms don't do that much of change of characters and their relationships. Some epic heroes in stories that are made for sake of epicness don't do it either. Though his main idea is that you need to know this stuff to make something decent, which is probably true
" There are only 4 kinds of this." "Has to be this." "Must have that." *This kind of rigid dogma should be avoided at all costs.* Some of the best movies and shows don't have or fit these. This kind of moralizing, self-appointed absolute authoritarianism is everything creativity is NOT.
Yes, but the reason there are - two valid words - is that story comes to us from campfires and are good or bad... but “plot” or plotting comes to us relatively recently... and used mostly by “architects” who construct a story for purposes - OTHER THAN - telling a story... and as an derogatory by person listening or watching the story and sense the “plotting” is sticking out like sore thumbs...
No, no, no, no. Plot is the cause and effect of events. Story is the background machinery that makes that happen.Child spills glass, which leads to Dad hitting him. Plot. Dad hits him because he has deep seeded contempt for child. Story. Yet another self appointment arbiter of pseudo wisdom from someone who has never written a good movie.
Child spills glass which leads to Dad hitting him is plot and it's also story because the "visual action" reveals the deep seeded contempt for the child.
![How To Write A Great Antagonist - Eric Edson [Screenwriting Masterclass]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mkSZOCcBLhI/mqdefault.jpg)
Really like the lady host in those interviews,she is not just being passive and actively interacts with the guy.Great channel
Love what he said at the end. "If they do not drive the plot forward, get rid of them!"
That was one of the gripes I had in the Wonder Woman movie. I liked it a lot but I felt there were too many side characters who ended up being unnecessary.
MrMagnificentMedia I think I might disagree with him and you. A character could be part of the world building. And we all know that depending on how a writer uses the world the story takes place in, the world too (and all components that make that world) could act as an additional character. I think he's just being facile cause it's an interview. It gets nuanced and intricate. Yeah, it's possible to have wasted characters but at same time some so called purposeless characters are there to fill out the world or theme. Back to the Future could've had Marty dealing with his mom in the past. Why give us her mom, dad and siblings? Well, cause there's this element or theme of "family" in the movie, is why. They also help to shape the 1950s world when we explore their home and life.
You think the fact that Wonder Woman, and other films, contains those kinds of character means he's right and the big movie creative people are wrong, or could it be the other way around? Why would they put those characters into films if this guy's advice is so spot on?
I had an instructor who put it this way, "How is that scene connected to the spine of the story?" If "not at all" you pitch it or revise.
@@markrandall6973 That's good logic, but my perception was identical to MrMagnificentMedia. I thought we were casting all the producers' friends. In the time available there wasn't time to sketch the side characters, but they stuffed it in and it was noticeable. The person I was watching with kept saying "Wait, who's he? Is that the same guy who ..." Some people just don't care and ride with it in a passive way, but more active viewers like all the pieces to make sense.
Wonder Woman is apart of a bigger universe, so in my opinion a lot of side characters have meanings or nods to the central viewer who is vested in that world. If it was a one off original story then I would agree.
Commenting as a reminder for myself, 3:44 is probably the best advice I've ever heard.
Always good to know the rules and then break them.
Knowing and understanding are two different things. It's not enough to know the rules -- you gotta understand the "why" behind them.
And they're not so much "rules", so much as "guidelines".
I'm impressed with his ability to speak plainly, which indecently is a quality many would be writers lack. So many screenplays suffer from being way to ambitious in their complexity.
Christopher Moonlight Your comment seems like a good example of that
I love how clear and straightforward Eric Edson is! This is my favorite type of exposition, when learning! Thank you.
If you watch enough of these videos - they will all contradict each other.
Yeah man for real lol
This man made the least sense to me
Because there aren't any specific rules to screenwriting, like traffic rules, regardless of how much you read about this structure and that structure. Methods/Ways vary from person to person. All we can do is, watch them all, and take what's best for us from every single of them. :)
When everytning stops making sense, it's time for you to teach the subject.
Lol that's why I'll use a lot of the advice from ppl like Abbie Emmons, ShaelinWrites, Quotidian Writer, and Hello Future Me & such for the core of a lot of what I consult for writing advice, and then add certain videos from Film Courage along the line for additional context, more so as a "if you're stuck or need some reminding or another context that can also be applicable, watch this" kinda advice
Like anything, if you take EVERYTHING as gospel, you're gonna be bouncing into all kinds of stylistic contradictions, but if you take everything with a grain of salt, you'll be able to apply w.e. seems worth trying for that circumstance or moment, and keep or discard whatever does or doesn't work for you and w.e. you're writing
I think the reason many people avoid the love interest is because often times in movies, they are just stuck in there. The love interest is used just for the sake of being used. They don't tie into the theme, push the plot forward or anything, you can take them out of the movie and it would be okay without them. Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom are two example that come to mind.
I don't know why people like Temple of Doom. I think if the Indiana Jones movies came out today, people would pan Temple of Doom for taking a huge step back and being childish compared to Raiders of the Lost Ark.
I haven't seen the whole movie, only clips but you are spot on
Meta Ray Bridge to Terabithia is a good example of a well done love interest character with the teacher if anyone needs an example
Yeah, love interests are done so badly so often some may be struggling to see how to write them well.
@@ninjaturtlefan2003
Guy: *hasn't actually watched the movie*
Also Guy: *criticizes it*
really, dude? I'm not saying it's the best movie ever made, but watch it yourself before you judge it. Can't rely on someone else's opinion.
Huge respect for this guy for his love for films.
Great insights! This guy is peppy and zippy and interesting and he talks funny and I like him!
I love how he delivers information. You realise it's an interview but the answers are so rich questions don't even matter no more .you just want him to keep educating you.
I admire his vocabulary and personality, the amount of info this video has is amazing thanks for the post please make more videos about KEY elements or basic steps to writing Thank you
i think that it's important to remark that he is talking about formuleic story telling. there are some stories which wouldn't work with this formula and characters. but it's ok, this is very commercialy focused
it's important to know what you are telling and applying the structure and tools that best fit the concept i believe
to drive this point more into home. when he talks about the adversary having to be human (in mind at least). this would fail horribly if you were to apply it to a cthulhu like adversary, because it completely misses the point of what makes cthulhu terrifying. the fact that it is an inhuman creature beyond all understanding and human power. a story about cthulhu using that adversary would probably add an "emisary of cthulhu" of some sort, making the point of the whole thing fly off into the void.
saintmaster22 In fairness, there's a reason the vast majority of Lovecraft's mythos is delivered via short stories. You couldn't make a feature film out of Cthulu without having to either put a visual to the conceptually indescribable (which would defeat the purpose) or just having a man slowly lose his mind in an independent experimental film.
He isn't talking about formula. He's talking about FORM. Stories have a form. Just like all things that earn their name. No inciting incident, no goals, no conflict? I don't know what it is you're writing, but it sure isn't a story.
Haha, I'm so glad to hear about the 4 emotions!!! I've been working on a screenplay and each beat has an emotional change but it's always mad -> happy -> scared etc. and I was lol-ing at my lack of descriptive adjectives, but watching this video, I feel like I'm good! XD
So insightful and helpful. My script has gone through multiple rewrites because of this video. Thank you!
1:19 been looking for this...
Have you been spending time in the UK? I've never heard anyone but the English use the word bloody in the way you do. I like it.
Who ARE you?? Your video postings are AWESOME!! So versatile and comprehensive...extremely useful!
Wow! Another fantastically useful video. I'll use these definitions while working on a 48 hour film project at the end of this week. This viewpoint comes at the perfect time! Thank you!
I feel like a better way to say it would be to say "we like to catagorize plots into 4 types", or "we like to catagorize characters into 14 types" rather than saying "There are only 4 kinds of plots". It's a model for veiwing characters and story but not really a limit to them. Most stories fit into those categories because the categories are so broad, and he admits that there are multiple subtypes. It's like saying there are only two kinds of numbers even numbers and odd numbers. It's true, but there are still infinite even numbers and infinite odd numbers separating them that way is just one way to look at them, and there are other ways that are valid and useful depending on what you're trying to do with them.
I got character categories 1-8 (hero, adversary, mentor, love interest, helper/follower allies, sidekick, adversary agent, gate guardian) Anyone have the rest????
The big idea I take from this vid is the need to further develop my Gate Gaurdian, its like I had them here but they were not fully realized. Now its crystal clear to me after watching this. Thx😃
Heeze Worth i m finding a screen writer partner for my project if you are interested write me at zunairakhan3333@gmail.com
Well said (and reveled)! Thank you, Mr Eric Edson.
Something that hindered me when starting out was expecting to have a great story idea very quickly. I've learned that the best ideas take a long time to develope. You have to leave them in the incubator for months before you write a word on the page.
So true!
Win, stop, escape or retrieve. Is it OK to use all these?
4 will be great, but 3 is more than enough considering 2 is kind of plenty and 1 is ideal
Interesting strategies.
I've probably learned more about my characters in this short video than I have in the past year.
Eric Edson!!! Guys, read "The Story Solution".
Excellent, thank you!
Great check list 👍 and inspiration
I needed this!!
I like the descriptions of the 14 characters (but I was into C.G. Jung and Joseph Campbell) but the real trick is when you are tempted to - write OUT the non-hero non-adversary - character to make them more unique... even if they serve their role in the story... at what point do they threaten to hijack the story... or even in production, when a far more talented actor who’s supposed to be playing the 2nd banana becomes more interesting than the 1st!
More interesting to whom ? Every audience member relates to a character. Maybe you relate more to the 2nd but others continue to follow the lead. 😉
this guy is amazing. smart words
This was really helpful, thank you!
clear and inspiring,, where can I find all 14 different characters outlined? does nayboady know?
He has a book, The Story Solution. You can find it on Amazon. It's very good. His point is to quantify screenwriting, make it teachable. It's hits the same points as a lot of other books, but in a clearer, more concise way. I found it very useful. That's the first half of the book. The second half is something he calls Hero Goal Sequences, which takes the quantifying several steps further. It's definitely higher math. Think of the first half as stuff you should know before you write your script, and the second half as a way to check your work after each draft.
Get the book. It’s really good.
The love interest should personify the growth that the main characters needs. And I think very few young writers actually understand what their main character need to grow. Possibly because they haven’t figured out their own ”hero’s journey” yet.
Thank you for the video
Going to be honest, all this sounds like a bunch of jargon learned at film school. At the end of the day I don't care about that; I want someone to tell me a compelling story. I don't care how it's done ... I can't imagine Tarantino writing a character and cramming them into the one of 14 categories. He just has an intriguing idea for a scene and let's the characters steal the lines away.
Yeah it seems kind of restrictive. Imagine cutting the old Indian from The Outlaw Josey Wales because he doesnt move the story along...Also those 4 goals Win, Stop, Escape, Retrieve, how would those apply to Stand By Me?
Love interest is the less used in the people he gets to teach he says and to me is the most used in all my stories xP
I’m writing a Romance story right now, super excited. Not many romantic movies these days. Strange.
Give us an update
@@No.Parking script was too long, so I’ve decided to turn it into a tv series. Now I have to break it down and write a pilot, which is the hard part.
He says that there are no internal goals. The main character needs to have a specific and objective goal. So what is Will Hunting's specific, objective goal?
Really interesting
HA HA!
It's like building a Great Big House without knowing anything to achieve so...
That's exactly what my Dad did!
And He built an Amazing Hilltop Mediterranean style Villa!
Along with a dozen or so/less local workers and multiple local contractors! He kept firing then for multiple reasons, ha da : ]
These Rock!
Great video!!
Thanks for watching Cooper!
Sir Didimus in Labyrinth is literally a Gate Guardian!!!
Whatever your opinion of his work, Stephen King has done pretty well with his philosophy:
“Story is honorable and trustworthy; plot is shifty, and best kept under house arrest.”
Could be other things than a love interest character, could be an intimate relationship role.
Also No, the internal goal is not separate from the physical goal, in great films they are integrated together, ie the character has to change in order to accomplish the outer physical goal
Can another attempt please be made about the captioning? This man has a quite dulcet voice that the recording method hasn't quite captured, leading to difficulty for me in understanding what he says. Seems the captioner hasn't understood either, as there are 'greyed out' words that I assume they haven't registered.
Or perhaps there is a more direct option; can a commenter help me out? When he says there are 4 viable goals in screenwriting, is it: when, stop, escape or retrieve? I'm having difficulty with the first word.
Thanks Tim, we will revisit the captioning on this video. In the meantime, to answer your question.... Win, Stop, Escape or Retrieve.
Does anyone know if he explores the ideas of major emotion categories and character types in his book? Or does his book focus only on Hero actions/Plotting Structures?
I'm having such a hard time wrapping my head around the nuances of screenwriting...and at 48 it doesn't seem like I'll be able to get it.
I can't seem to formulate a coherent story.
Oh but you can. It took 48 years for all your energies to align. Im 44 and am starting to seriously purpose screenwriting. At 20, when I graduated from college, I had nothing to say. Now.... I've got more stories than I will ever be able to get out. And I bet you do too. WRITE!!!!!!!!!!!
@@JohnBradydoesstuff Thanks. I'll get back on the horse. It's nice to talk to other writers.
“If they do not forward the plot, get rid of them!”
Escape The Night in a Nutshell.
@4:40 Lisbeth of Stig Larsson's trilogy is walking in mad and leaving mad a lot. She is usually mad. Once in a while her character has different emotions, but mostly - she's mad.
Plot and story are the same thing? how is that?
Useful content besides, Eric Edson look like an interesting mix between Kevin Spacey and Jack erdie.
These guys talk about certain numbers of things as if they're Platonic solids, but you haven't shown any videos where they give proofs. I'd like to see a video like that.
He gives dozens in his book and they're pretty solid.
Where can i find a list of these 14 character types ?
We actually recorded video of one of Eric Edson's classes where he teaches 6 of the 14 character types - th-cam.com/video/d85qzE6V38E/w-d-xo.html They all can be found in his book which is linked up in the description.
If we have don't idea to write a script then what we do
Here's a side note to what I'm about to say, but if you want to write a feature length screenplay and are just getting started, get the book Save the Cat by Blake Snyder. It gives a great structure for movie scripts and while it may sound formulaic, it offers a lot more flexibility than most people realize. Also, he pretty much straight up says that the entire book is just a good suggestion, not a steadfast rule.
If you don't have an idea, then think of one. I know this sounds kind of strange and I struggled with this a lot at first. But I have found it effective to just try to constantly think of new ideas. Look for inspiration anywhere you can, whether that be people, work, books, comics, video games or other movies. I'm always just trying to think of inspiration and then when it comes I write a couple of notes about it and let it stew. If you have any more ideas later write those down. Then when you do go to write, you can look through your notes and pick out ideas that stand out to you. Maybe you feel like writing a comedy, what funny ideas have you come up with this week?
It's difficult at first but just try and stimulate your brain to think about stories. If you want there are a lot of brainstorming exercises you can find online. You have to work at thinking up ideas, so keep working at it.
The first short film I wrote I built in this sort of a way. A cool title popped into my head and I wrote it down. As I went about my day I started thinking about what that title implied about the story and its themes. I just kept thinking up conflicts and characters a phrase or two at a time, did some research, thought some more, and eventually I ended up with a psychological thriller about a schizophrenic man discovering his hallucinations, which was definitely not an idea that would ever immediately pop into my head.
Keep trying and keep writing. It gets easier.
I would love to know who the 14 characters are. Maybe I miscounted.
Hi Daniel, here's a lecture where Professor Edson covers 6 of the 14 character types. He covers them all in his book The Story Solution. (link for the book in the description)
Far be it from me to disagree with his opening statement about story and plot being the same. Another source from whom I’m taking notes always says that plot is about what happens. Story is about WHY what happens Matters to and transforms the characters.
Overly simplified example: A woman gets up and has breakfast and cleans the dishes afterwards. She then vacuums her floor and polishes her dustless furniture. Finally she forced herself to look at the clock on the wall. It’s time.
She walks to her window and looks out. The flag is up on her mailbox. She has mail. She smiles humorlessly reminded of the movie with the similar title.
Before she can think of another method of procrastinating, she walks to the front door and unlocks it. She opens the door and surveys the yard before stepping out onto the meandering walkway connecting her front door step to the sidewalk in front of her house.
She set out for the mailbox making sure to stay on the path. She reached the mailbox, reached in and retrieved the junk mail contained within. She paid all her bills online so all she ever got was junk mail.
She headed back toward the house, neither taking her time nor rushing. She looked straight ahead at her front door and made a bee line for it ignoring the path, crushing grass beneath her feet. She entered her house and closed the door locking it once again. She leaned back against the door and smiled. She got a glass of cold water and sat down at her kitchen table after fishing her journal out of the side table. She turned to the placeholder and opened the journal to a blank page.
This is Plot. Specifically Status quo. On the nose and mundane? Yes. For most people - but for this woman in particular NO.
Here’s why the Plot happening matters to her also known as the woman’s STORY (fear/internal conflict): She hesitated a few seconds to gather her thoughts before she wrote “Day 101. A first today! I made it all the way to the mailbox and back to the house without running on the way back. I couldn’t stay on the path on the return trip but I didn’t run. My heart is still racing even now but I expect that to be the last thing to go away. Tomorrow is Sunday so I’ll have a day to celebrate my progress - before I have to test myself to see if it sticks. I pray it does. Agoraphobia is a bitch but I’m really starting to believe there’s hope for me yet”.
Agoraphobia: phobia level fear of open spaces. She is virtually a prisoner in her home due to this fear and is undergoing therapy by emerging from her house and forcing herself to travel the short distance between her house and her mailbox. She’s done it for 100 days but she procrastinates every day before she gets up the courage to venture out. Again it’s her status quo.
Clearly the Plot takes on a different significance once you hear the Story narrative/ inner dialogue / journal entry which could be shown on screen or as a voiceover.
For me it’s the what happens versus the why it matters to the characters. Put another way, the Story is why the Plot matters. They are two separate things in my understanding. Are they intertwined yes but I don’t think the words are interchangeable.
Maybe they are in a screenplay? Because everything has to be visually perceptible? I don’t care about that. Story is connected to internal conflict and plot is connected to external conflict / events and that rings true to me. I’m studying craft with an interest in writing a novel not a screenplay but Story is Story.
To be clear, I love everything ELSE this man is saying. 😂😂
10 people actually thumbs downed this video. I'd love to hear their perspective on shit. Wow!
Ok, let's start with "win, stop, escape, retrieve". It's either way too broad, to the point of not being useful ("win" can mean literally anything), or plain wrong. Even the generic stuff like revenge doesn't fit any of those categories.
Then there's "there are only 4 emotions" bit. No there fucking aren't. "Sad, mad, glad and scared"? Even Inside Out had more. If you clamp melancholy, disappointment, grief and apathy together, what is the point of such categorisation anyway? I'd love to see Kübler-Ross model by this guy.
Anyway, I can't watch it any more. Can't stand the guy. He acts like he has some divine authority over screenwriting, claiming one bullshit after another, while all he has to show for it are movies that combined were seen by less people than this video.
damn hes talking some good shit
Any one. What are the four viable goals. Thank you
1- tell the story that you wanna tell
2- don't follow any rule
3- be entertaining
4 - write
Make sense, Thanks
Big ideas...
I understand structure and the emotions and other things like raising stakes, etc. But I'm weak in understanding character. Something he said was a lot of students least write about love interests... I partly disagree with his guess as to why. I'm willing to bet most find it cliche, cheesy or not as interesting. Furthermore, I'll bet women are least likely to go there because they want to write stories that don't use women for the same 2 dimensions all the time.
BUT! Corey Mandell said a serious writer practices their weaknesses.... sigh.. I don't wanna develop romantic interest skill but it looks like I should. Lol
Compromise... when I get good at the over all writing skill beyond beginner level, I'll try romantic (puke) interest. XP
Heh
I feel the same way, only because it hasn't been written to have more than a 2 dimensional character, in most cases. Sex, Fight, Tenderness, Emotional, Nurturing, etc, are all different aspect or attributes a love interest can have. Sex being the least attractive to me, but is the most prolific in movies. Boring and in some cases, offensive. No depth. Unless it's Kyle Reese and Sarah Conners from the Terminator movie.
Remember it has to move the story along, physically. Written brilliantly, it can be 1 scene that changes the hero somehow at the end of the scene. Hero is glad, then sad, for example.
1:24
It's great that somebody can obtain and organise all this analytical information from a film, but watch the creatives crumble when they try to take all of that and assimilate it into their screenplays/films. As close to impossible as anything could be.
It's the same in writing books . 💔🙏
Kevin Spaceys brother knows his stuff
Some times the best teachers does not paint like Michael Angelo ....some time u must heard to copy some times to not do...
Please develop this story
obviously a very experienced and talented chap, fair enough, but i can’t help but find it funny when people impart these apparently cast iron platitudes that are near-biblical in alleged accuracy and use, then... “there are only 4 emotions, don’t you know that?” then moments later “well obviously there are others and ones between”
It's just a model for examining the story and it's structure. I don't think he makes that clear enough.
Conflicts are important. Without them, your story will be boring.
Not sure about 4 plot goals. For my taste, the best stories have them only as means for intermediate conflicts at best. Like, Melancholy or Paranoia Agent. There are good stories with these goals, but even in some very popular examples, like Twin Peaks they aren't too real. I mean, they are probably needed for most stories, but placing them as foundation is questionable
Also regarding necessity of change, I'm not sure it's a must. Most popular sitcoms don't do that much of change of characters and their relationships. Some epic heroes in stories that are made for sake of epicness don't do it either.
Though his main idea is that you need to know this stuff to make something decent, which is probably true
Don’t you learn by doing things that you don’t know entirely? Some people learn first! But some people learn in the process
This guy cracking himself up is cracking me up. :P
What about of you don't want to build a house and you only need a kitchen then what?
" There are only 4 kinds of this." "Has to be this." "Must have that." *This kind of rigid dogma should be avoided at all costs.* Some of the best movies and shows don't have or fit these. This kind of moralizing, self-appointed absolute authoritarianism is everything creativity is NOT.
Your point against rigid dogma is valid but I can't help notice your screen name..! ;)
You need to know your tools before you start writing a story.
Looking at you Ron Weasley 😂
Squared
Yes, but the reason there are - two valid words - is that story comes to us from campfires and are good or bad... but “plot” or plotting comes to us relatively recently... and used mostly by “architects” who construct a story for purposes - OTHER THAN - telling a story... and as an derogatory by person listening or watching the story and sense the “plotting” is sticking out like sore thumbs...
4 emotions? 14 different characters? And we MUST know about it? I have never even heard about this. Don't really think it's a rule.
No, no, no, no. Plot is the cause and effect of events. Story is the background machinery that makes that happen.Child spills glass, which leads to Dad hitting him. Plot. Dad hits him because he has deep seeded contempt for child. Story. Yet another self appointment arbiter of pseudo wisdom from someone who has never written a good movie.
It's not even as complex as that - story is what happens and plot is how it happens. This is why the same stories can be retold ad infinitum.
TheReccher Have you?
Child spills glass which leads to Dad hitting him is plot and it's also story because the "visual action" reveals the deep seeded contempt for the child.
Well we can't just sit with the damn machine in the middle of the road without a driver and a steering wheel, can we?
Shree: Yes , we can. Self driving cars are on the horizon. No driver or a steering. Pun intended!
I don’t want plot I want story. Ha sounds like a Trump supporter