It can not be understated how valuable still being able to play old generations in a competitive environment is. Smogon is doing the Lords work by preserving those formats.
I would agree with you if the tiers and bans were frozen in place after the gen is over. They've gone back and ruined old gens I played and grinded when they were current well over a decade later
@@dudesk099 Give one example of how Smogon ruined an old format. As far as I can see, they just ban whatever is problematic, and while they might not always ban everything that should be banned, I’ve never seen them make a decision that actively makes an older format worse.
@@dudesk099 Sometimes, there can be developments in a generation's scene literal years after said gen is done. I recall hearing that Gen 1 OU singles has recently seen a major shake-up in the Big 3 due to developments within Gen 1's competitive community. Stuff like figuring out new strategies that end up shaking things up, or finding a good way to restrict something without entirely banning it.
@@LloydTheZephyrianall that is still possible if they would "retire" a format and has nothing to do with the smogon administration. I agree with the OP here, smogon and pokemon showdown are literally doing the lords work. This is what jesus would do.
Pretty sure preserving the game with all its whacky code is more important than preserving a meta from a decade or two ago, freezing it in time It's a meta, things are supposed to change anyways I love playing gen 1 on showdown, it's so different
Rotation battles are clearly superior to both of these formats only played by ruffians and hooligans. The ability to rotate your Pokémon provides a deeper level to this complex game that simple minded cavemen cannot understand.
Pretty much all battles are singles and then competitive pokemon is doubles? Either it should been singles too or we should have doubles be the default for important battles tbh
@@humbertoseghetto5218 other than the horrendous balancing issues singles has, like jimothy mentioned, which requires councils of people to manage, the real issue is time. Singles battles take wayyyy too long to be viable in real life tournaments where these days there are over 700 players playing best of 3. Heck, VGC tournaments used to be only one day and players complained that it felt like a marathon, and by top 32 they were only performing at half brain power. Shorter games also mean less opportunity for variance, but increases the impact variance has. It’s why singles players run stuff like focus blast, because there are so many turns that one of them is bound to hit. VGC players would never run it however, gamble strategies are too risky and could cost you the game when every turn decision is so impacted.
I would say I am primarily a VGC player but I also love singles content creators like Jimothy, Pokeaim, Blunder, etc. I feel like the community is at its best when both sides can appreciate each other. Hopefully people can stop going at each others throats and just enjoy pokemon. Thankfully we are safe from Iron Muggulis in both game modes 🙏
Your right he should have said 1 time champion and over 10 time participant of worlds. The biggest with the best of the best. With a couple 2nd place finishes in there tok
Nintendo's decision to make the competitive format completely different that the one of the actual single player game everyone played and knows is bizzare. If they want doubles to be the format for competetive, why is the *ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME* 6v6 singles
They made the gimmick, made pokemon that had no place outside the format and made moves specifically for said format, looked at it, and went “Oh God, we can’t go back”
@@ax9583 was going to comment exactly about the 2nd part of Scarlet/Violet DLC. What I think probably happened is that they never intended to have an esports scene when they introduced double battles in Ruby/Sapphire (afterall why would they think about that in 2002-2003?) and even after they instated the official tournaments with 2vs2 battles, they still thought it wasn't going to be more than a niche thing that wouldn't need a lot of attention. That's why they took so long to have another double battles focused content in the DLC so many years after xd/Colosseum.
the games are targeted at a audience of children and vgc is targeted at adults. doubles is just less accessible and more complex, which makes it more suited to an adult audience. it also has less matchup variance and shorter games. i think there should be more doubles games
From a competition logistics standpoint, you just can’t have 100+ turn Pokémon battles that take hours. That’s why VGC is doubles format and only bring 4 Pokémon instead of 6v6 doubles. The game lengths are short enough for the tournament operations to be manageable, but the options are complex enough that there is skill. You can shorten the singles game length down to 15-30 minutes by playing 3v3, but at that point team building is too limited. It becomes even more rock-paper-scissors and luck based.
I've played singles for 10+ years and switched to doubles/VGC in the middle of scarlet violet. I'm really enjoying open teamsheet format and Tera is my fave mechanic, and I think it feels better in doubles
I think the overall consensus among VGC players is that open team sheets are a good thing. It was a weird take that Jimothy thought it was bad. Knowing all your opponents options means the better players will win more often. Much more chess-like. Previous formats had a lot of information wars, trying to hide sets from your opponent, and winning by using some super random tech move.
@@Finch_The_Human Nah, a less skilled player getting the win because they pulled off some wild strategy that their opponent wasn't expecting is more fun imo. Pokemon is a lot more dynamic than chess, and wanting to make it less so is silly in my opinion. Nothing against VGC, but open teamsheets absolutely killed my interest in participating in it.
I'm primarily a VGC guy nowadays, but I've played lots of Smogon Singles in previous generations and I love it, I think it's great. The main problem I have with Smogon Singles at the moment, well, you could say it's balance, but I think it is slightly more subtle than that. The fundamental issue is that for VGC, the people designing and balancing the game are the same people (or at least the same organisation) and it allows them to create some harmony between what is designed and how it is balanced (which they do not do perfectly, but overall I think they do a good job, and especially Gen IX VGC I think has been great!) The Smogon guys are subject to a hard problem, where they have zero control over the design and _some_ control over the balance (within their own rules, anyway. Theoretically they could tweak any stat or move or even add whole new Pokémon if they wanted). So it's tough, and I think it's extra tough because people really want them to _respect_ the design of the actual games while they balance the format, and in many ways various bans and restriction clauses feel like they are fundamentally not respecting the game's design and that upsets people... but Gen IX without such bans and clauses really is _not_ balanced around 6v6 Singles, so what can you do?
I think the easy solution is to tell the people whining about cartridge accuracy to go play VGC instead so that the rest of us can focus on making singles good again despite Game Freak doing everything in their power to kill it as a format in favor of doubles.
Smogon 6v6 will always be my bread and butter ❤️ I started with Pokemon Online gen 4 back in 2010 and haven’tstopped. I especially love how old gen metagames keep being played and evolve still now. The magic of discovering how good Aerodactyl can be in Gen 3 or reviving Megas in gen 7 is always a blast. Thank you, Smogon and Showdown!
Smogon vs VGC feels like the Standard vs Expanded/Legacy formats of TCGs. Legacy formats are almost always grassroots-based because the devs almost always stop supporting those formats, but those formats are still good and full of depth. I've heard tons of people in MTG, Pokemon, and Yu-Gi-Oh argue about this too, saying legacy formats are "not official" or on the contrary saying that older formats are superior in nature with their noses turned up, when it is just a different or preferred format. I am a singles main and grassroots enjoyer, and often an disillusioned by newer formats in all these games, but I still am happy the official formats are played so that we can have more people eventually to play with us and enjoy the grassroots formats, too. Great video as always, Jimothy. I have been enjoying your content consistently and am impressed by the frequency of quality uploads. Hopefully you are doing ok, too. I know matters with the Horse Council likely keep you up at night
I feel like if Pokémon wanted more fan interest in doubles they should add more doubles to the actual games. Make every gen 10 gym leader a "bring 6 pick 4" doubles. Rather than there only having been 3 doubles gym leaders in 9 gens
Yeah I agree. Thankfully I think its likely cause the Gen 9 DLC Indigo Disk is pretty much exclusively double battles with actual competitive movesets (for the most part)
@@maxgustafsson7802 oh yeah, this 1v1 vs 2v2 debate has a good 20 years in it left at this rate. They'll never sell Pokemon to anyone but kids. Old people get jaded and stop spending money but there's always a new batch of kids to sell to. They've got that market on lock and will never let it go. Appealing to older people with more complicated games may make us happy, but it's basically throwing money away. A company wants to make money, not throw it away.
@@NaturesFlame I mean maybe but the double battles in the games are usually fun too. Getting to use more of your pokemon at once is fun sometimes. In Pokemon Sapphire (my first game) I loved when I found the double battles in game. I think that was the gen they started paying attention to doubles with new additions like plusle/minun and how spread moves worked, so they put quite a few double battles, even tate & liza in emerald, and battle tower + frontier having double battle options. Colosseum and Gale of Darkness were great games as a kid too, and are 100% doubles, if the gamecube was more popular I think they would've been appreciated a lot more.
Singles will always be my preferred format for the simple reason that there's so many ways to play. Even though I don't like gen 9 ou that much I can play UU, RU, or even a past generation of OU. In doubles if I don't like the current format I simply have to wait until the next regulation. I can't hop onto showdown and load up a game of 2014 vgc, but I can play gen 6 OU to heart's content.
I feel like that's more an issue of showdown being massively slanted towards singles than doubles, for some reason they've already killed the Reg G format despite some people preferring that format, yet they keep around doubles OU from multiple gens.
One thing that’s got to be disputed is that Gen 3 was the genesis of actual strategy in Pokemon. Sets, strats, and metas all existed even back in Red/Blue. Competitive Pokemon was played by adults in the 90s and they strategized oversets and teams. In RBY you had TonyBro + Mewtwo, and in GSC you had Baton Pass teams and stall teams. There were also sims way back too. And fan made banlist. (Meetwo, Mes, Lucia used to be the only banned Pokemon. Then they banned evasion, and went from thee. I know it’s not the point of the video, but there’s been strategy for over 25 yearsz
As someone who played both Smogon and VGC but quit early on in Gen8 due to power creep (f*ck Dynamax) i've had several years to formulate my thoughts on the matter. I think both formats have their up and downsides. I knew of Smogon way back in Gen4, but never heard about VGC until 2015 from a content creator known as TheJustinFlynn where i learned that it was TPCI's official format. I think back then I was part of the "Smogon is fake and unofficial" crowd for about a year until i came across videos of a cardridge league playing a slightly modified version of Gen6 OU (more complex bans to free some banned pokemon, etc) and joined there, though so close to the end of the generation didnt start battling there until Gen7. During Gen7 i found myself improving at both VGC17 (to this day my favorite VGC format i played) as well as 6v6 OU on the league, topping both at locals and tournaments on the league. In 2018, i even travelled across the border to Antwerp in Belgium to participate in what was essentially the replacement for the Belgium National Championship, hosting both OU and VGC, finishing Top 4 in VGC and winning the OU tournament. While both formats are pokemon, they felt completely different from eachother. But that also caused something that irritated me a lot: so many people feel deadset on playing only VGC or only on Smogon that they completely disregard the other without ever trying it out, or playing just 1 game already going in with the mindset that they'll hate it. In person VGC tournaments are great, meeting people irl either usuals at locals or people from other countries (yes im from Europe, we have multiple countries here) at large hype events that you normally only really speak to online. Also i love how the faster gameplay allows for much more complex EV spreads, having a lot more focus on defensive calcs that are impossible in singles due to hazards messing with the calcs. Smogon however is not a format, its a forum that hosts many different formats. They host different tiers across current and all historical genearions, and even if you aren't a fan of 6v6 singles, there's things like 1v1, hackmons, and even DoublesOU, which i played quite a bit, as a sort of middleground between OU and VGC. There's something for everyone to enjoy. So yeah, i like both, and they both have a clear reason to exist. Just wish more people playing one were accepting of the other. Also i do kinda dislike the evergrowing divide between Smogon and cardridge, Showdown gameplay looks so boring when you've played cardridge and TPCI neglecting Singles with their ridiculous powercreep and dooming Gen9 sucks too, and dont forget about the removal of the VS Recorder and having several years of 20 min battle timer...
My main thing is that VGC is way better as an actual spectator sport. I know it's rare and uncommon but games in Smogon singles can, at a moment's notice turn into an endless switchfest. That's absolute poison for viewership. I know some people love the intricate chess match at play during switchfests but I just can't stomach it personally.
I think the switchfest thing is my primary issue with Singles. I feel like at a certain point I’m wondering when the game actually gets played. I understand that intricate 5D chess moves are probably being played here but this is just ridiculous.
The irony is that, logically speaking, it's almost impossible for a game, even Singles format, to devolve into an infinite switch fest outside of smogon rules. The average damage output powercreep in pokemon is so drastic that, literally anywhere outside of smogon, it is extremely easy to run over any sort of defense-oriented setup with almost zero thought (just pick legendary with big attack number, slap on choice item or life orb, and press attacks), and usually the only way to reach enough bulk for a switch+regenerator spam to ever profit on hp gain with this situation is to have something that setup with defense increasing buffs (aka they can't really switch, as whatever is switched will take so much damage due to not being defensively boosted that it's a losing move). It's an ironic self-sabotage smogon enacted upon itself, since if someone on any other format were to attempt using smogon sets, they'd be crushed so one-sidedly that they'd assume smogon is trolling since their tiering format alters the game that drastically. I think the best example is smogon's view on Baxcalibre compared to the no-tiers console format. With most of the "KO literally everything in 1 hit" super legendaries out of the picture, Bax seems like an ultra durable mon with Snowscape defense boosts and passive Ice Body regeneration. But when those super legendaries are spammed by everyone, that tank Bax strategy is a joke of a set that no one in the console format uses because it can't tank the relevant, unfiltered powerhouse hitter mons for jack all even if fully bulk EV built. So Bax in console formats go for much more aggressive Thermal Exchange offensive sets instead. Kingambit, smogon's top dog mon, is also extremely rare in console matches because it is an absurdly strong smogon mon when all the super legendaries are filtered out, but when compared to no-tiers aggressive legendary spam it ends up being very underwhelming in the more powerful competition it faces. Because when mons like Urshifuu and Ogerpon are allowed to be spammed, everything has to become warped around the standards those kinds of mons set. In the smogon format where those can be removed, everything warps around those kinds of mons NOT existing in the format.
I know it's only tangentially related, but competitive tf2 also has multiple different primary formats. Community competitive is split between 6v6 and 9v9. Valve does have an official 6v6 comp mode, but it has no item/class restrictions, which kind of makes it a huge mess. Still, there is a pretty large split between 6v6 and 9v9, as the formats play very differently.
I think this is a very important point to make. Doubles are great to watch, since every turn matters so much and the games are shorter, even with the much longer animations.
This was a great video and a really clear and unbiased comparison between the two. If you're planning on making another video like this I would love to see one on the differences between ladder singles play and tournament singles play. I feel like some of the issues mentioned at the end are specific to tournament play, and my experience with overwatch tells me that top level ladder games and actual pro matches can test very different skills and even have completely different metas
Open team sheets are an odd case. It was only as of Gen 9 I think that open team sheet rules became a thing, but I think there’s a lot of good that comes from it. The access of information leads to a higher skill cap and a lower skill floor, letting anyone enter and not get screwed over. It also makes high-level play more interesting, in my opinion, since it’s not necessarily about what item or move or ability an opponent brought, it’s about how they use them. I think that open team sheets, especially with terastallization, is far more fair to the majority of players than not. I think hidden moves are a great part of singles, but cheese in doubles feels very bad to play and play against.
Yeah its funny, I remember having a kneejerk reaction thinking "wow that sucks, information identification is a huge part of the game", but Moxieboosted completely changed my mind on the topic instantly in his video. Theoretically rogue strats are kneecapped a bit, but only really ones that specifically rely on unconventional movesets, and even then most high end players know Pokemon well enough to consider those weird strats. In practice, we've seen quite a bit of oddball picks show up (I mean hell, there was a damn Poliwrath recently that placed well). And yeah, like you mentioned, the existence of Tera also makes this preferable. Tera isn't the worst mechanic by a long shot, but its also not the best, as it adds a lot of volatility that isn't controllable. Team preview alone cant give you information, like it could with Megas for example, and VGC's more turn starved nature makes a surprise Tera swinging a match quite commonplace. I think it ends up being overall good for the game, and I wouldn't super hate it if it made its way on in game ladder in the future.
I believe a benefit of open team sheets is also that it doesn't give people that are more known in the scene an unfair advantage as some people tend to tell each other an item or a move option their opponent had and open team sheets equalizes that abit.
You've made many great points and I agree with most of them. I'm especially irked by Smogon hate, because i've been in pokemon spaces for many many years and it's almost always comming from people who have no goddamn clue about how any of Smogon rulings work and at the same time are very inept at the game itself. It's a community of people trying their best to foster an environment for you to enjoy your favorite game in - attacking them (and not the rulings you find contestable) is just such a dick move on a fundamental level. Literally why be like this. I can't agree about some points you made about doubles tho. For example an open datasheet is a new idea ment to balance out Tera types and WILD amounts of variants it brings to the game. We didnt preffer the element of surprise as a singles community, we decided to throw it away altogether because it was unfun and uncompetitive to guess that many more things every game so the comparison and reasoning behind it seems slightly flawed. I'm really not sure about the mathematical complexity of decisionmaking in respective formats. True, single games are much longer on average (lets say 40 turns while acknowledging some edge cases go way, way beyond that) than doubles (say 7 turns on average) but in singles you can only make 5 choices every turn. Click one of four attacks or switch. In doubles between having 8 attacks to click into 3 possible slots each [minus things like protect, spread and setup moves] and being able to make two switches a turn into two possible slots each turns in doubles are so much more densly packed than singles turns I think it's far from obvious as to which format offers most decisions per game. If you consider a flowchart of possible gamestates every turn i belive doubles become orders of magnitude more complex because you have a spqnning number of points to make decision from every turn. But that's neither here or there I obviously agree that pace and vibe of singles feels much different and it's great fun - I preffer playing singles myself. Thank you for making this, i do think we need more voices in the community telling people that you dont have to put down thing A to enjoy thing B. You can even enjoy both for different reasons, like me. Great point about rules and bans being in both formats too
Hey man, just wanted to say that I spent the past 7 months at home alone recovering from knee surgery and your content really helped me stay sane. It’s also been cool to see your channel growing this whole time too
I'm a big fan of closed team sheets in principle, but if you're not part of a group, then it's easy to have your strategy shared with others via viewers, which keeping those without connections in the dark.
as someone who used to play a lot of random battles but never much OU or VGC, what nearly got me into OU was how much fun gen 9 was in the first few days of release, it felt fast and you could play a game out in a few minutes which felt nice, but the constant bans in the format really soured me on that and I went to VGC and found it a lot more fun. The constant need for smogon to try "balance" a format that can never be balanced feels like it harms the overall feel of singles for me, any time something feels slighty strong in OU people cry about it until it gets suspect tested or banned, and that cycle repeats endlessly. where as in doubles the format changes shake up the meta on a rather regular basis to keep things from feeling stale.
Ive been following doubles for a long time now and watching Wolfe’s content for so long, I can’t help but agree with you. I don’t play myself, but I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for doubles players when games can be decided so quickly. One wrong move and it could be 100% over. Like watching Wolfe’s streams and the dude’s decicion making boiling down to: Well if I do X and he knows I do X, I should do Y but if he does Z then Im fucked. Idk. I like mind games as much as the next game but there’s only so much roll of the cosmic dice I like
i love doubles so much that i want the option to play the entire game in doubles. it opens up actual strategy and allows the use of helping hand, follow me, etc
PokemonOnline was so dope. The community was small but tight, there would be regular tournaments where you'd run into the same people, and I think the minor barrier to entry helped keep the community chill
I wish the in game story playthroughs pushed doubles more aggressively, it’s a fun format and being incentivized to engage with it would make new players more comfortable getting into competitive vgc instead of being guided to smogon. Like imagine if the gym leaders and Pokémon league all had double battles and were actually hard again, that would be sick
8:19 lolol well said. I almost forgot there was even a rivalry, but you reminded me there totally is one. We’re all Pokemon fans, why does that even exist in the first place?
You are telling me that rules and regulations keep the metagame fresh and with more diversity and I fully agree. The only thing that makes me scratch my head is then please explain to me why is there so little freshness and where is the diversity within the OU ladder? There is a clear disconnect between the council's intent and what they have actually accomplished.
People like you have no clear definition of “diverse” Someone can provide as much “diversity” as they want you’ll just say it doesn’t count Because to someone that plays comp booster calm mind iron valiant and banded iron valiant are different Pokémon but not for y’all Maybe this doesn’t apply to you specifically because you just seem to be curious but some people definitely think like this and it’s annoying
@@GravityIsFalling You seem to be mistaken, I'm not arguing in favor of diversity, I couldn't care less. The ones that are arguing in pro of a more diverse metagame are the people in charge of the council, they are the ones that wish for a "diverse metagame" whatever that means. I'm just pointing out how they have monumentally failed in that endeavor. You Say cm val and band Val are 2 different Mons? Well then try running them both together in The same team see what happens then, spoiler alert: they are the same mon as far as team validity is concerned. "But mine has 10 more speed ev's! It's a totally different Beast" sure it is buddy
I can see why people would still like single style seeing there is certain things but I can see more why doubles is so good. Doing doubles is surprisingly so much more in planning doing crazy mixtures in pokemon and it could be more exciting.
Personally I think that Pokemon should implement a mode that allows you to play the game with all battles being either Single or Double battles. It's very odd that the official competitive format of the game is doubles, but the single player mode generally only requires a couple mandatory ones, and iirc the Elite 4 and champion don't even have a single one.
i think i would be much more likely to play a 6v6 singles tourney if you only brought one team. its intimidating to me that i would have to learn multiple teams to have the best chances
I think that’s the point. There’s more to Pokémon than what you do in a battle. Your expression of skill starts the moment you open the team builder, and being able to make and effectively use more teams than your opponent means that you’re more deserving of a win than they are.
Gamefreak has had 15 years, since VGC Doubles started in 2009, to normalise the Doubles Fomat. 15 years to make their games use Doubles on all battles through the story mode and post-story - *they still haven't done it!* If they had done that in the last 5 years (and allowed Singles to be a setting you can enable via in-game options), people would accept Doubles being the norm. But that would require actual work and innovation to make interesting NPC battles and code in the Single setting. 🤣
They’d need to make some serious changes beyond that for me to ever accept doubles as the norm. Double battles as they exist now are so much less interesting than singles despite the mountain of changes and new additions that Game Freak is pushing to try and make doubles the accepted format.
Because, ironically, it's harder to balance a single player experience for a 2v2 format than a 1v1. Let me explain my point. Pokemon walks around this sharp edge where it has to please both kid and "casuals" AND the new, growing, competitive fanbase. Now, imagine the 9yo Timmy having to face the multiple decision making of 2v2 where his overleveled starter will STILL be killed because they continue to double target him. Isn't just easier for Gamefreak to let 9yo Timmy spam Torch Song and feel cool about his crocodile friend? Considering protect, the most important move in VGC being a TM, how will they do before they get that MT? Shouldn't they give their player easier access to moves like Fake Out/Twind/TR? And when you give these powerful moves more accessibility, how will this impact the wider game? We saw how Scald impacted the meta for being "too widespread". So, what is the solution? Make Timmy play single, let the competitive player play the 2v2 format, and balance the overall strength on that. Pokémon isn't SMT that can pull off squad battle and kick players ass like nothing. The only way would be having a difficulty/style option that lets the player decide the ruleset. But you really expect the same SH that gave us Scarlet and Violet to balance their game TWICE?
I like watching both singles and doubles content, the only real gripe i have is people in both formats titling their videos as "competitive pokemon" not specifying whether it's singles or doubles. This isn't a problem in terms of causing confusion, as most channels stick to one format, so as long as you're familiar with the channel you know what format you're getting. The problem i have, is that it implies that whatever format the channel in question is playing is THE way to play competitive pokemon, even if that implication isn't intended on behalf of the video creator and i think this does in some small ways help increase the divide between the two formats and their communities which i think most people can agree is not desirable. As such i strongly recommend that regardless of what format one plays or prefers that if you're going to include the words "Competitive Pokemon" in your video or stream title, please just add "Singles" or "Doubles" somewhere to help emphasize that both formats are and can be competitive.
There isn't a best competitive format, it's all based on preference. Doubles is more fast paced, and every decision matters. But this also makes it so that it's a prediction heavy format, and the fact it's in-game means teambuilding is quite a long process. Sure, lately there's been a myriad of tools to help with it, but then there's the different regulations that render some Pokémon unviable becas of the new environment of the new regulation. Singles is more fast paced, but you also gotta make predictions. And there's entry hazards existing to punish your enemy from switching around constantly and reduce that movement. But then there's stall, which is frustrating to fight, and also the fact that later games are extremely unbalanced because new additions only have VGC in mind, and not singles. Whether you like Doubles more than Singles is a personal thing, but that won't make it better than the other.
I’ll never understand why everyone points to stall as a downside of singles. Stall teams are some of the most fun to play with and against if you actually like the game of Pokémon beyond just clicking the super effective move and seeing big damage happen. Long-term planning is essential whenever stall teams are involved, and that makes the game way more fun in my opinion. Most people don’t even understand stall as a concept. The best stall teams don’t sit there and do nothing for the entire battle, they start the game aggressively in order to limit the opponent’s options or cripple their team in some way. Then, when the opponent lacks a solid option of breaking through, you basically just choke them out the entire match because your team lasts longer than theirs does. It’s a fascinating way to play the game, but babies whose attention spans only lasts for about 20 turns will cry about it forever. The fact that you’re having a battle that lasts 100 turns against a stall team means that the stall team is beating you. If you don’t want to play for 100 turns, then get good. Options like taunt and hazard control exist for a reason. Maybe start using them instead of 6 setup sweepers.
No, sorry, the enlightened middleground take doesn’t work here. VGC is objectively a better competitive format for in person tournaments, especially with open team sheets. Significantly faster games, much less game variance, more complex and impacted turns, and more naturally balanced as a format. Sure you can do a pick 3 singles format but then it will become very rock-paper-scissors with almost no team variety. You are free to enjoy playing whatever format you like more. Most people play through the games and enjoy singles, I get it. But there are a lot of reasons why VGC is the official competitive format and singles is not.
@ Objectively better? No lmao. The only objective upside is that matches are faster, which only matters for in-person events. Everything else is definitely a matter of preference. I love singles and think VGC is garbage, but even I wouldn’t say that singles is objectively better, since people obviously enjoy different things.
@@Steflora I completely understand how Stall isn't just an automatic win button, as you have to accordingly play your cards to preserve your defensive pillars on the endgame. It being especially painful in places like Gens 5 and 9, where the power level is so high it's not even funny. But although it's a skillful playstyle, it is not a fun one to fight against, because you have to take your resource management and crank it up to 11. Which is not a very fun thing to administrate even 2% of health on a Pokémon just to make sure you position yourself well enough. The reason why it's counted as a downside is how unfun it is, and how much it drags out tournaments when it's used.
@@genarftheunfuni5227 You said that you have to crank your resource management up to 11 when playing with or against stall. In other words, you just described what makes it so fun. Pokémon is all about resource management in the end, and stall just takes it to the extreme. There’s nothing unfun about it unless you just don’t like playing competitive Pokémon. Like I said before, if you don’t like playing 100+ turn games, then build a team that beats stall. It’s not that hard, since stall isn’t top meta in any format. In fact, great players say that any team you build should be able to break through a stall core, as that’s the ultimate sign of a good offensive core. If your team always loses to stall, then it’s not a good team, and it’s your fault.
If there is 1 thing that struck out to me in this video is that air of elitism VGC players have over us smogon enjoyers. Listen, I like wolfe glicky Boy, as does 99% of the wntire pokemon world, but some of his content makes my stomache turn. Have you seen his recent videos? Bro doesnt even try to acknowledge our existance. His videos are so devoid of the format nuisances its like I step into a different deminsion every time I click on his thumbnail. Now contrast this with the absolute gigachad that is moxie boosted and you can really begin to appreciate pokemon gaming in its entirety. Moxie is another VGC juggernaut who dedicates himself to his craft and HIS format, but unlike wolfe, he doesnt forsaken the other side of competitive pokemon. He doesnt even talk about singles all that much. He will go on about the nuisances of VGC formats for 99% of his videos and then give a shout out about how we smogon goons still die to rocks in 2024. Its not much but it damn sure is comforting to know a homie from the other side knows whats good in the smogon neighborhood. In fact, for me its the relatability and lack of blatent forsaking that helps me appreciate VGC all the more. I dont want to engage in VGC gameplay at all, but when his thumbnail drops, I get to button mashing. I say all this to say that I do feel the underlying tension between the two communities, and I think its retarded. Both sides have something to offer and saying 1 side is strictly superior over the bc its backed by the devs is silly. Thats just my spin on it though. Im actually just a casual who mainly plays smogon bc broswer go brazy. Yall have a good 1
Moxie has (and might still?) play lots of smogon OU Wolfey has little to no experience with smogon (as far as I know he’s mostly on played singles draft league) That’s why
The argument is silly, its like comparing smash to tekken, theyre similar but say they're the same is silly and reductive. Doubles promotes different gameplay, you cant play stall in VGC you'll get blown up, in singles stall can be viable. If you bring a random niche shitmon in VGC is a lot more viable because if it sucks in a matchup you dont have to bring it, while it can be dead weight on a singles team. Singles has the amazing tiering system so if I dont like the format, I can play another one, and if I want to play Gen 2 I can play Gen 2. That isn't possible in doubles with the rotating ruleset, which can keep things fresh but if I love a ruleset its gone in two-three months.
LEAGUE OF LEGENDS MENTIONED As someone who plays league competitively for a college team, it's kind of interesting how many references to strategies in competitive pokémon we've used. Just one example is the concept of type/strategy overload, where if you run, let's say, a rain team, it doesn't matter if they have one rain counter or specifically water type counter because if you can get past that you can theoretically blow up the rest of their team. I think friezai mentioned it in one of his videos, and You can do something similar in League. Just one example
Actually many years ago it was CybertronVGC who was very important in growing the competitive scene for VGC. It was in my favorite format, Gen 6 VGC. Wolfe came to tournaments with unique teams but this was only showcased in matches commentated by Aaron Zheng or by TPCi staff.
The thing about singles is so many concessions need to be made to keep it competitive. Remove entire sections of the game (GMax ban), introduce Sleep and Freeze clause, etc. etc. etc. In a format without these limitations you can literally just run Spore Smeargle and run train on entire teams.
My thing with the “adapt” argument is that certain moves and abilities exist for a reason. Like evasiveness is disliked, but no guard, compound eyes, blizzard+hail, thunder+rain, smart strike, and aura sphere are all there for a reason, but because we remove evasiveness(except contrary Defog) these strategies are rarely used. Or banning trapping abilities, when pivoting moves and even shed shell exist to keep that in check.
the 1 single type of item in vgc is very cool, every tournament should be played like that because although restrictive it does breed creativity, something I dont like about smogon gen 2 ou is that everyone uses leftovers and not using it is a huge detrimental cause everyone else has it
Your analysis around the 10 minute mark actually reminds me about the analysis of the cultural difference between sumo and American football. Sumo is very quick and decisive, whereas football provides multiple opportunities to play for a win, and how the differences in the sports we play reflect cultural differences between japan and america
Wolfe is really a hero for the VGC scene, and does it all with a very positive and family friendly channel. I am a big fan and personally grateful to the guy
The safe and perhaps boring answer is that there's room for both, it comes down to personal preference, and having different formats helps diversify things to give people more options and make things more interesting.
Pokemon having two different competitive communities is an asset, since people can play where and how they want. Being mad that both exist together is like being angry that two restaurants are across the street from each other.
I never loved Smogon's decisions on sleep, evasion, etc, becaused I really enjoyed the in game 6v6 back in gen 6/7. However, Showdown's ease of use and accessibility makes me appreciate all they do a lot.
all i would love is for GF to make a 3rd format which is 6vs6 singles, nothing else, just keep the same rules as current VGC, kinda what Freezai said before, they know about Smogon otherwise heavyduty boots wouldnt exist, so a little extra would be fun
I think Smogon's issue is that the game just isn't congruent to 6v6 singles in modern gens. The added mechanics just spiral out of control in a singles environment. I think a pick 4 system would help alleviate some of the matchup fishing. Smogon isn't an evil empire, but gen 9 makes me feel that the amount of stretch 6v6 singles has is running out. Like smogon said, they already have a modded version of the game to keep most metagames in check with sleep clause. There is definitely a desire to be more cartridge accurate but then you just have to ban certain mechanics, which people also don't seem to like. They're in a lose-lose situation, and as power level increases and mons become more volatile in their ability to win a game on a single turn, the issues singles has will only get worse from here on, I fear.
The most obvious proof of this is provided by a cursory glance of the "ban lists" of Smogon versus VGC. Stealth rocks, sleep, Mega Rayquaza (in unrestricted formats), are all things that are completely fine and even somewhat balanced in VGC.
@@plebulus To me it never felt like that, at least compared to the games. The amount of switching alone completely removes that feeling for me. It does for casual games vs friends, but usually we just play random battles or free for all at that point, because having to build a team for a meta that's gross like that feels exhausting. From a competitive standpoint, right now, I don't think Smogon works well. It works, but barely, and only with a lot of clauses and special rulings. At that point it doesn't feel like a 6v6 fight I'd have with a trainer in the games now matter how much you squint. And the competitive side of it is both boring to watch and has this insane one turn wins with how mons are designed nowadays. VGC's smaller teams, pick 4 system, no dupe items and rotating formats help keep it fresh. It's both more fun to play and to watch. Meanwhile in singles, at least for me, it has turned into whoever gets their sweeper to get away with the boosting move first. Oh and sometimes it's just a 5v6 cuz one of the mons gets hardcountered by the other team. I just don't think it works in modern pokemon with team preview and the amount of mons in the game. Older metagames do work, imo.
@OnlyNeedJuan I always think about it like how people are always going on and off the bench in a baseball game, or like in wrestling where when they tag in their teammate, idk I have not played THAT much singles but it doesn't really feel THAT weird for me
Still want the Battle Royal mode as a competitive format, even if it's not playable outside of Gen 7. - Set Level 51+ to Level 50 - Bring 6, Pick 3 - Battle ends when one player is out of pokemon - Points are awarded based on placement (determined by KOs and remaining Pokemon Count, with Remaining mons being a tiebreaker)(1st gets 4 points, 2nd gets 3, etc.) - No Legendary/Mythical Pokemon - No Duplicate Pokemon - No Duplicate Items - No Mega Evolutions (for Gen 7) - No Ultra Beasts - Items can be traded between party members between games - Player with the most points after 4 games wins the match (Mario Kart style) - Spread moves have power reduced by 50% - Exclusive Z-Moves are banned - Z-Celebrate is banned
I started with singles like most people and ended up playing vgc because I hate 100+ turns battles of nothing. Game is designed around doubles, thats why pp stall is a thing in singles
I would like to mention that singles has a much easier time gathering information over vgc, with the overall greater average amount of turns and the free usage of a calculator. Especially with tera mechanics, which is already controversial in singles, would completely twist vgc without open teamsheets.
I really like how you approach this topic, both formats should be respected and appreciated! However I think that you and many other people tend to overlook that there is a competetive singles format, Battle Stadium Singles (the name 'Battle Spot Singles' that you mentioned in the beginning of the video has been retired since Gen 7). I know that not many people play it in the west, but it is still an official format and has a gigantic community in Japan and east Asia. To give you some perspective, the biggest BSS TH-camr has over a million subscribers (and reached that milestone before Wolfey did) through only uploading gameplay with some editing and commentary in Japanese (missing out completely on international audiences, unlike Wolfey or Aim). The official in game singles ladder also has way more player than the VGC ladder in game. The ladder also is extremely competitive and reaching a top spot at the end of a month is one of the most difficult achievements in all of competetive Pokemon. I know that this video addresses only the western Pokemon scene, but I think it's an interesting aspect of this 'debate' that it completely changes once we look at the country where the whole franchise originates from (Smogon formats are hardly played in Japan in case anyone is wondering). VGC is sort of present in both the east and the west and I believe VGC is in both cultures overall still the slightly less popular format compared to the regional singles counterpart (assuming that we combine all smogon formats). I could be wrong on that last point, due to VGC's rising popularity, but nonetheless I think it is important to point out that BSS undeniably has a huge player base and deserves to be at least mentioned as a major part of competitive Pokemon. Although I play mainly BSS, I love all 3 formats and I'm happy that there are so many options to enjoy competitive Pokemon :)
it's like melee hating ultimate and vice versa, it is so stupid. i've played both formats for about 20 years now, and they are both fun and intriguing at the same time
I remember (vaguely) the days of Shoddy battle, and I guess the early days of showdown. Pre gen 5, when I would run amazing sets like Swords Dance + Brave Bird Skarmory. Meteor Mash Clefable, as well. And my win-con in many a game being Curse + Rest Swampert. The early days of Gen 5 as well, before the western release. So we used pokemon such as "Rankurusu" as opposed to Reuniclus. Rankurusu + Roobushin (had to look that one up tbh) being my favorite team core back then. The social aspect was great, too. I remember playing games of Mafia with dozens of people in them. As well as "clans" run through IRC channels. I don't remember my clan's name (Devastation or destruction might have been in the name?), but I do remember our naming scheme was "sexy" + "favorite pokemon" + "z". Mine being "sexyleafeonz," unfortunately.
jimothycool.com
Horse Council merch available until end of December.
Wolfe only won worlds once
The best compromise is clearly to add 1v1 to 2v2 to make 3v3.
I’d rather have 2v23v3.
rotation battles only
That would be a good compromise for any series besides Pokemon.
Could you imagine the frame rate drops? Dear Arceus
I think 3v3 reverse battle should be the standard ruleset
that's gamefreak's problem
It can not be understated how valuable still being able to play old generations in a competitive environment is. Smogon is doing the Lords work by preserving those formats.
I would agree with you if the tiers and bans were frozen in place after the gen is over. They've gone back and ruined old gens I played and grinded when they were current well over a decade later
@@dudesk099 Give one example of how Smogon ruined an old format. As far as I can see, they just ban whatever is problematic, and while they might not always ban everything that should be banned, I’ve never seen them make a decision that actively makes an older format worse.
@@dudesk099 Sometimes, there can be developments in a generation's scene literal years after said gen is done. I recall hearing that Gen 1 OU singles has recently seen a major shake-up in the Big 3 due to developments within Gen 1's competitive community. Stuff like figuring out new strategies that end up shaking things up, or finding a good way to restrict something without entirely banning it.
@@LloydTheZephyrianall that is still possible if they would "retire" a format and has nothing to do with the smogon administration.
I agree with the OP here, smogon and pokemon showdown are literally doing the lords work. This is what jesus would do.
Pretty sure preserving the game with all its whacky code is more important than preserving a meta from a decade or two ago, freezing it in time
It's a meta, things are supposed to change anyways
I love playing gen 1 on showdown, it's so different
Rotation battles are clearly superior to both of these formats only played by ruffians and hooligans. The ability to rotate your Pokémon provides a deeper level to this complex game that simple minded cavemen cannot understand.
Yokai Watch gaming
I’ve never seen a 2v2 furret tour so I know my answer
2v2 Draft league Furret is a nightmare though. It gets Follow me and crazy support.
Why do Pokémon games ask if I want to teach my pokemon helping hand if 99.99% of In game battles are singles?
Dont be rude. They're trying to help
Pretty much all battles are singles and then competitive pokemon is doubles? Either it should been singles too or we should have doubles be the default for important battles tbh
This is basically the sentiment of every sane person, there's NO reason for there to be such an awkward divide@@humbertoseghetto5218
@@humbertoseghetto5218 other than the horrendous balancing issues singles has, like jimothy mentioned, which requires councils of people to manage, the real issue is time. Singles battles take wayyyy too long to be viable in real life tournaments where these days there are over 700 players playing best of 3.
Heck, VGC tournaments used to be only one day and players complained that it felt like a marathon, and by top 32 they were only performing at half brain power.
Shorter games also mean less opportunity for variance, but increases the impact variance has. It’s why singles players run stuff like focus blast, because there are so many turns that one of them is bound to hit. VGC players would never run it however, gamble strategies are too risky and could cost you the game when every turn decision is so impacted.
@@Finch_The_Humandoubles has a lot of balance issues, it just isn't actively tiered like singles. That's why you get things like fluttermane
Competitive Jimothy Cool is a unique case in the world of TH-cam.
Of course the real ones know Rotation Battles are where it's at.
Well said 11-hour man 🙏
I wish they'd be back
Perhaps they won't be as problematic on better hardware
I played a rotation battle once. I got dizzy.
More of a triples man myself
Peasant, you wouldn't last 5 minutes in Battle Royale format.
They both have the most important part of Pokemon, absolute bullshit that makes you never wanna play again.
Unfortunate doesn't even begin...
This is how it feels to face down way too many Iron Valiants and Kingambits:
What too many maushold beat up strats do to a mf
@@bluekirby_64to describe my series…
@lordgrub12345 what 0.3 seconds of raging bolt on my screen feels like
I would say I am primarily a VGC player but I also love singles content creators like Jimothy, Pokeaim, Blunder, etc. I feel like the community is at its best when both sides can appreciate each other. Hopefully people can stop going at each others throats and just enjoy pokemon. Thankfully we are safe from Iron Muggulis in both game modes 🙏
I think the majority of competitive pokemon community is actually very chill and just some loud assholes make noise.
6:50 wolfe glick has won the world championships a single time. this spread of misinformation is unacceptable.
Your right he should have said 1 time champion and over 10 time participant of worlds. The biggest with the best of the best. With a couple 2nd place finishes in there tok
@@Zo3yXjust 2nd one time.
Both sides are wrong actually #triplesonlyvalidformat
Nintendo's decision to make the competitive format completely different that the one of the actual single player game everyone played and knows is bizzare. If they want doubles to be the format for competetive, why is the *ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME* 6v6 singles
They made the gimmick, made pokemon that had no place outside the format and made moves specifically for said format, looked at it, and went “Oh God, we can’t go back”
@RoughRouser maybe that's why xd/Colosseum and the blueberry academy dlc exist lol
@@ax9583 was going to comment exactly about the 2nd part of Scarlet/Violet DLC. What I think probably happened is that they never intended to have an esports scene when they introduced double battles in Ruby/Sapphire (afterall why would they think about that in 2002-2003?) and even after they instated the official tournaments with 2vs2 battles, they still thought it wasn't going to be more than a niche thing that wouldn't need a lot of attention. That's why they took so long to have another double battles focused content in the DLC so many years after xd/Colosseum.
the games are targeted at a audience of children and vgc is targeted at adults. doubles is just less accessible and more complex, which makes it more suited to an adult audience. it also has less matchup variance and shorter games.
i think there should be more doubles games
@@karanea same, im searching for some hackroms focused in doubles
You have been pumping out content. What a time to be alive.
From a competition logistics standpoint, you just can’t have 100+ turn Pokémon battles that take hours.
That’s why VGC is doubles format and only bring 4 Pokémon instead of 6v6 doubles. The game lengths are short enough for the tournament operations to be manageable, but the options are complex enough that there is skill.
You can shorten the singles game length down to 15-30 minutes by playing 3v3, but at that point team building is too limited. It becomes even more rock-paper-scissors and luck based.
i mean true could you imagine abr vs tele irl
@@hypphenNgl I still would have watched it. Hype game.
A video about triples would be pretty heat tbh
I've played singles for 10+ years and switched to doubles/VGC in the middle of scarlet violet. I'm really enjoying open teamsheet format and Tera is my fave mechanic, and I think it feels better in doubles
I should clarify thar I still enjoy 6v6 singles a lot. However in gen9 I reffer doubles/VGC
I think the overall consensus among VGC players is that open team sheets are a good thing. It was a weird take that Jimothy thought it was bad. Knowing all your opponents options means the better players will win more often. Much more chess-like.
Previous formats had a lot of information wars, trying to hide sets from your opponent, and winning by using some super random tech move.
@@Finch_The_Human Nah, a less skilled player getting the win because they pulled off some wild strategy that their opponent wasn't expecting is more fun imo. Pokemon is a lot more dynamic than chess, and wanting to make it less so is silly in my opinion. Nothing against VGC, but open teamsheets absolutely killed my interest in participating in it.
I'm primarily a VGC guy nowadays, but I've played lots of Smogon Singles in previous generations and I love it, I think it's great.
The main problem I have with Smogon Singles at the moment, well, you could say it's balance, but I think it is slightly more subtle than that.
The fundamental issue is that for VGC, the people designing and balancing the game are the same people (or at least the same organisation) and it allows them to create some harmony between what is designed and how it is balanced (which they do not do perfectly, but overall I think they do a good job, and especially Gen IX VGC I think has been great!)
The Smogon guys are subject to a hard problem, where they have zero control over the design and _some_ control over the balance (within their own rules, anyway. Theoretically they could tweak any stat or move or even add whole new Pokémon if they wanted). So it's tough, and I think it's extra tough because people really want them to _respect_ the design of the actual games while they balance the format, and in many ways various bans and restriction clauses feel like they are fundamentally not respecting the game's design and that upsets people... but Gen IX without such bans and clauses really is _not_ balanced around 6v6 Singles, so what can you do?
I think the easy solution is to tell the people whining about cartridge accuracy to go play VGC instead so that the rest of us can focus on making singles good again despite Game Freak doing everything in their power to kill it as a format in favor of doubles.
Was not expecting to see the word “mastubrating” (spelled exactly like that) in a jim cool video
Was waiting for a comment mentioning that lol
Smogon 6v6 will always be my bread and butter ❤️ I started with Pokemon Online gen 4 back in 2010 and haven’tstopped. I especially love how old gen metagames keep being played and evolve still now. The magic of discovering how good Aerodactyl can be in Gen 3 or reviving Megas in gen 7 is always a blast. Thank you, Smogon and Showdown!
Smogon vs VGC feels like the Standard vs Expanded/Legacy formats of TCGs. Legacy formats are almost always grassroots-based because the devs almost always stop supporting those formats, but those formats are still good and full of depth. I've heard tons of people in MTG, Pokemon, and Yu-Gi-Oh argue about this too, saying legacy formats are "not official" or on the contrary saying that older formats are superior in nature with their noses turned up, when it is just a different or preferred format.
I am a singles main and grassroots enjoyer, and often an disillusioned by newer formats in all these games, but I still am happy the official formats are played so that we can have more people eventually to play with us and enjoy the grassroots formats, too.
Great video as always, Jimothy. I have been enjoying your content consistently and am impressed by the frequency of quality uploads. Hopefully you are doing ok, too. I know matters with the Horse Council likely keep you up at night
Competitive pokemon is a unique case in the world of esports
Because this is a rare instance where an official competitive ruleset and a fan made grassroots competitive ruleset both exist at the same time.
Usually, it's one or the other. Smash Bros doesn't have an oficial tournament ruleset, so it's entirely run by the fans.
@@Not_An_Original_NameBut bigger esports like League of Legends are all about their official competitive ruleset
So why does Pokémon have both? It's actually a pretty interesting question.
Official competitive pokemon formats have existed for a long time; since the very first game in the series in fact.
Ahhh the age old debate - Scald singles ban VS Scald doubles ban
I feel like if Pokémon wanted more fan interest in doubles they should add more doubles to the actual games.
Make every gen 10 gym leader a "bring 6 pick 4" doubles. Rather than there only having been 3 doubles gym leaders in 9 gens
Yeah I agree. Thankfully I think its likely cause the Gen 9 DLC Indigo Disk is pretty much exclusively double battles with actual competitive movesets (for the most part)
Games are for kids, not for sweats training for a tournament.
Games will always be 1v1 because it's easier for kids to figure out
@@NaturesFlame then they'll keep having the issue of people wanting to compete in the game they've actually played
@@maxgustafsson7802 oh yeah, this 1v1 vs 2v2 debate has a good 20 years in it left at this rate.
They'll never sell Pokemon to anyone but kids. Old people get jaded and stop spending money but there's always a new batch of kids to sell to. They've got that market on lock and will never let it go.
Appealing to older people with more complicated games may make us happy, but it's basically throwing money away. A company wants to make money, not throw it away.
@@NaturesFlame I mean maybe but the double battles in the games are usually fun too. Getting to use more of your pokemon at once is fun sometimes. In Pokemon Sapphire (my first game) I loved when I found the double battles in game. I think that was the gen they started paying attention to doubles with new additions like plusle/minun and how spread moves worked, so they put quite a few double battles, even tate & liza in emerald, and battle tower + frontier having double battle options. Colosseum and Gale of Darkness were great games as a kid too, and are 100% doubles, if the gamecube was more popular I think they would've been appreciated a lot more.
2:22 AYOOOO whats going on in that chat??
Singles will always be my preferred format for the simple reason that there's so many ways to play. Even though I don't like gen 9 ou that much I can play UU, RU, or even a past generation of OU. In doubles if I don't like the current format I simply have to wait until the next regulation. I can't hop onto showdown and load up a game of 2014 vgc, but I can play gen 6 OU to heart's content.
I feel like that's more an issue of showdown being massively slanted towards singles than doubles, for some reason they've already killed the Reg G format despite some people preferring that format, yet they keep around doubles OU from multiple gens.
I would argue that this isn't competitive pokemon's greatest debate. In fact it is the stupidest debate.
One thing that’s got to be disputed is that Gen 3 was the genesis of actual strategy in Pokemon. Sets, strats, and metas all existed even back in Red/Blue. Competitive Pokemon was played by adults in the 90s and they strategized oversets and teams. In RBY you had TonyBro + Mewtwo, and in GSC you had Baton Pass teams and stall teams. There were also sims way back too. And fan made banlist. (Meetwo, Mes, Lucia used to be the only banned Pokemon. Then they banned evasion, and went from thee. I know it’s not the point of the video, but there’s been strategy for over 25 yearsz
As someone who played both Smogon and VGC but quit early on in Gen8 due to power creep (f*ck Dynamax) i've had several years to formulate my thoughts on the matter. I think both formats have their up and downsides. I knew of Smogon way back in Gen4, but never heard about VGC until 2015 from a content creator known as TheJustinFlynn where i learned that it was TPCI's official format. I think back then I was part of the "Smogon is fake and unofficial" crowd for about a year until i came across videos of a cardridge league playing a slightly modified version of Gen6 OU (more complex bans to free some banned pokemon, etc) and joined there, though so close to the end of the generation didnt start battling there until Gen7. During Gen7 i found myself improving at both VGC17 (to this day my favorite VGC format i played) as well as 6v6 OU on the league, topping both at locals and tournaments on the league. In 2018, i even travelled across the border to Antwerp in Belgium to participate in what was essentially the replacement for the Belgium National Championship, hosting both OU and VGC, finishing Top 4 in VGC and winning the OU tournament.
While both formats are pokemon, they felt completely different from eachother. But that also caused something that irritated me a lot: so many people feel deadset on playing only VGC or only on Smogon that they completely disregard the other without ever trying it out, or playing just 1 game already going in with the mindset that they'll hate it. In person VGC tournaments are great, meeting people irl either usuals at locals or people from other countries (yes im from Europe, we have multiple countries here) at large hype events that you normally only really speak to online. Also i love how the faster gameplay allows for much more complex EV spreads, having a lot more focus on defensive calcs that are impossible in singles due to hazards messing with the calcs. Smogon however is not a format, its a forum that hosts many different formats. They host different tiers across current and all historical genearions, and even if you aren't a fan of 6v6 singles, there's things like 1v1, hackmons, and even DoublesOU, which i played quite a bit, as a sort of middleground between OU and VGC. There's something for everyone to enjoy.
So yeah, i like both, and they both have a clear reason to exist. Just wish more people playing one were accepting of the other. Also i do kinda dislike the evergrowing divide between Smogon and cardridge, Showdown gameplay looks so boring when you've played cardridge and TPCI neglecting Singles with their ridiculous powercreep and dooming Gen9 sucks too, and dont forget about the removal of the VS Recorder and having several years of 20 min battle timer...
1v1 has always felt like the more natural format because the vast majority of the battles in the actual games are 1v1.
I would like to see more Doubles in the main games. Blueberry Academy was a nice start.
@@erwark yeah I do prefer 1v1 over all but the dlc battles were fun.
A couple gyms focusing on it could be a good choice
God I wish they would just commit to doubles and quit with the antiquated 1v1 format for the rpgs. 2v2 is just more fun and interesting.
@@evilded2I hate doubles.
@@evilded2Someone is complaining that Now you need two starters" or something
As if that's a bad thing
As long as it's not Pikachu
I love doubles since gen 4, I love VGC since Rizzo era and I’m a player since 2015.
You know my answer.
the real competitive format is for 2 people to play through an entire game as a nuzlocke then battle with the teams they have at the end
True
My main thing is that VGC is way better as an actual spectator sport. I know it's rare and uncommon but games in Smogon singles can, at a moment's notice turn into an endless switchfest. That's absolute poison for viewership. I know some people love the intricate chess match at play during switchfests but I just can't stomach it personally.
I think the switchfest thing is my primary issue with Singles. I feel like at a certain point I’m wondering when the game actually gets played. I understand that intricate 5D chess moves are probably being played here but this is just ridiculous.
The irony is that, logically speaking, it's almost impossible for a game, even Singles format, to devolve into an infinite switch fest outside of smogon rules. The average damage output powercreep in pokemon is so drastic that, literally anywhere outside of smogon, it is extremely easy to run over any sort of defense-oriented setup with almost zero thought (just pick legendary with big attack number, slap on choice item or life orb, and press attacks), and usually the only way to reach enough bulk for a switch+regenerator spam to ever profit on hp gain with this situation is to have something that setup with defense increasing buffs (aka they can't really switch, as whatever is switched will take so much damage due to not being defensively boosted that it's a losing move). It's an ironic self-sabotage smogon enacted upon itself, since if someone on any other format were to attempt using smogon sets, they'd be crushed so one-sidedly that they'd assume smogon is trolling since their tiering format alters the game that drastically.
I think the best example is smogon's view on Baxcalibre compared to the no-tiers console format. With most of the "KO literally everything in 1 hit" super legendaries out of the picture, Bax seems like an ultra durable mon with Snowscape defense boosts and passive Ice Body regeneration. But when those super legendaries are spammed by everyone, that tank Bax strategy is a joke of a set that no one in the console format uses because it can't tank the relevant, unfiltered powerhouse hitter mons for jack all even if fully bulk EV built. So Bax in console formats go for much more aggressive Thermal Exchange offensive sets instead. Kingambit, smogon's top dog mon, is also extremely rare in console matches because it is an absurdly strong smogon mon when all the super legendaries are filtered out, but when compared to no-tiers aggressive legendary spam it ends up being very underwhelming in the more powerful competition it faces. Because when mons like Urshifuu and Ogerpon are allowed to be spammed, everything has to become warped around the standards those kinds of mons set. In the smogon format where those can be removed, everything warps around those kinds of mons NOT existing in the format.
If you can't appreciate the Switchfest you don't deserve the epik sweepz
I know it's only tangentially related, but competitive tf2 also has multiple different primary formats. Community competitive is split between 6v6 and 9v9. Valve does have an official 6v6 comp mode, but it has no item/class restrictions, which kind of makes it a huge mess. Still, there is a pretty large split between 6v6 and 9v9, as the formats play very differently.
I prefer to play singles but I like watching doubles way more for it's complexity
I think this is a very important point to make. Doubles are great to watch, since every turn matters so much and the games are shorter, even with the much longer animations.
Can't stand doubles. makes speed almost a requirement to win, as well as packing on mons that DONT EVEN ATTACK.
Truly thought-provoking debate
1:42 Is nobody gonna talk about how the guy uses a master ball on a whismur?
You must be careful around whismur as they may shatter your eardrums
Competitive Pokémon is a unique case in the world of esports.
Because this is a rare instance where an official competitive ruleset and a fan made grassroots competitive ruleset both exist at the same time.
@@lalter_Usually, it's one or the other. Smash bros doesn't have an official tournament ruleset, so it's entirely run by the fans.
This was a great video and a really clear and unbiased comparison between the two. If you're planning on making another video like this I would love to see one on the differences between ladder singles play and tournament singles play. I feel like some of the issues mentioned at the end are specific to tournament play, and my experience with overwatch tells me that top level ladder games and actual pro matches can test very different skills and even have completely different metas
Open team sheets are an odd case. It was only as of Gen 9 I think that open team sheet rules became a thing, but I think there’s a lot of good that comes from it. The access of information leads to a higher skill cap and a lower skill floor, letting anyone enter and not get screwed over. It also makes high-level play more interesting, in my opinion, since it’s not necessarily about what item or move or ability an opponent brought, it’s about how they use them. I think that open team sheets, especially with terastallization, is far more fair to the majority of players than not. I think hidden moves are a great part of singles, but cheese in doubles feels very bad to play and play against.
Yeah its funny, I remember having a kneejerk reaction thinking "wow that sucks, information identification is a huge part of the game", but Moxieboosted completely changed my mind on the topic instantly in his video. Theoretically rogue strats are kneecapped a bit, but only really ones that specifically rely on unconventional movesets, and even then most high end players know Pokemon well enough to consider those weird strats. In practice, we've seen quite a bit of oddball picks show up (I mean hell, there was a damn Poliwrath recently that placed well).
And yeah, like you mentioned, the existence of Tera also makes this preferable. Tera isn't the worst mechanic by a long shot, but its also not the best, as it adds a lot of volatility that isn't controllable. Team preview alone cant give you information, like it could with Megas for example, and VGC's more turn starved nature makes a surprise Tera swinging a match quite commonplace. I think it ends up being overall good for the game, and I wouldn't super hate it if it made its way on in game ladder in the future.
I believe a benefit of open team sheets is also that it doesn't give people that are more known in the scene an unfair advantage as some people tend to tell each other an item or a move option their opponent had and open team sheets equalizes that abit.
You've made many great points and I agree with most of them. I'm especially irked by Smogon hate, because i've been in pokemon spaces for many many years and it's almost always comming from people who have no goddamn clue about how any of Smogon rulings work and at the same time are very inept at the game itself. It's a community of people trying their best to foster an environment for you to enjoy your favorite game in - attacking them (and not the rulings you find contestable) is just such a dick move on a fundamental level. Literally why be like this.
I can't agree about some points you made about doubles tho. For example an open datasheet is a new idea ment to balance out Tera types and WILD amounts of variants it brings to the game. We didnt preffer the element of surprise as a singles community, we decided to throw it away altogether because it was unfun and uncompetitive to guess that many more things every game so the comparison and reasoning behind it seems slightly flawed.
I'm really not sure about the mathematical complexity of decisionmaking in respective formats. True, single games are much longer on average (lets say 40 turns while acknowledging some edge cases go way, way beyond that) than doubles (say 7 turns on average) but in singles you can only make 5 choices every turn. Click one of four attacks or switch. In doubles between having 8 attacks to click into 3 possible slots each [minus things like protect, spread and setup moves] and being able to make two switches a turn into two possible slots each turns in doubles are so much more densly packed than singles turns I think it's far from obvious as to which format offers most decisions per game. If you consider a flowchart of possible gamestates every turn i belive doubles become orders of magnitude more complex because you have a spqnning number of points to make decision from every turn. But that's neither here or there I obviously agree that pace and vibe of singles feels much different and it's great fun - I preffer playing singles myself.
Thank you for making this, i do think we need more voices in the community telling people that you dont have to put down thing A to enjoy thing B. You can even enjoy both for different reasons, like me.
Great point about rules and bans being in both formats too
Can’t just people like what they like? Both are fun, both are flawed, both are significantly different enough.
Hey man, just wanted to say that I spent the past 7 months at home alone recovering from knee surgery and your content really helped me stay sane. It’s also been cool to see your channel growing this whole time too
Competitve pokemon is a unique case in the world of esports
Because this is a rare instance where an official competitive ruleset and a fan made grassroots competitive ruleset both exist at the same time.
is this an inside joke
Nintendo's evil treatment of the smash bros scene actually makes me more disdainful of 'official' formats as a concept.
Team Fortress 2 was entirely ran by the community for so long that its infrastructure was too strong for Valve to be able to even touch it.
triples>
real
what about rotation battles?
They are both inferior to the clear best format: rotation battles
Seems everyone is wrong. I only partake in the finest 5v5 Furret Triple and Rotation battles, depending on the season
I'm a big fan of closed team sheets in principle, but if you're not part of a group, then it's easy to have your strategy shared with others via viewers, which keeping those without connections in the dark.
as someone who used to play a lot of random battles but never much OU or VGC, what nearly got me into OU was how much fun gen 9 was in the first few days of release, it felt fast and you could play a game out in a few minutes which felt nice, but the constant bans in the format really soured me on that and I went to VGC and found it a lot more fun. The constant need for smogon to try "balance" a format that can never be balanced feels like it harms the overall feel of singles for me, any time something feels slighty strong in OU people cry about it until it gets suspect tested or banned, and that cycle repeats endlessly. where as in doubles the format changes shake up the meta on a rather regular basis to keep things from feeling stale.
Ive been following doubles for a long time now and watching Wolfe’s content for so long, I can’t help but agree with you. I don’t play myself, but I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for doubles players when games can be decided so quickly. One wrong move and it could be 100% over. Like watching Wolfe’s streams and the dude’s decicion making boiling down to: Well if I do X and he knows I do X, I should do Y but if he does Z then Im fucked.
Idk. I like mind games as much as the next game but there’s only so much roll of the cosmic dice I like
My brother, who is no fun, told me to tell you that Wolfe only won worlds once
i love doubles so much that i want the option to play the entire game in doubles. it opens up actual strategy and allows the use of helping hand, follow me, etc
Every night, I pray to Arceus that I wake up as cool as Jimothy.
PokemonOnline was so dope. The community was small but tight, there would be regular tournaments where you'd run into the same people, and I think the minor barrier to entry helped keep the community chill
I wish the in game story playthroughs pushed doubles more aggressively, it’s a fun format and being incentivized to engage with it would make new players more comfortable getting into competitive vgc instead of being guided to smogon. Like imagine if the gym leaders and Pokémon league all had double battles and were actually hard again, that would be sick
8:19 lolol well said. I almost forgot there was even a rivalry, but you reminded me there totally is one. We’re all Pokemon fans, why does that even exist in the first place?
You are telling me that rules and regulations keep the metagame fresh and with more diversity and I fully agree. The only thing that makes me scratch my head is then please explain to me why is there so little freshness and where is the diversity within the OU ladder? There is a clear disconnect between the council's intent and what they have actually accomplished.
Plenty of creative stuff tops ladder and sees use in tourneys i'd say
People like you have no clear definition of “diverse”
Someone can provide as much “diversity” as they want you’ll just say it doesn’t count
Because to someone that plays comp booster calm mind iron valiant and banded iron valiant are different Pokémon but not for y’all
Maybe this doesn’t apply to you specifically because you just seem to be curious but some people definitely think like this and it’s annoying
@@jimothycool sure it does
@@GravityIsFalling You seem to be mistaken, I'm not arguing in favor of diversity, I couldn't care less. The ones that are arguing in pro of a more diverse metagame are the people in charge of the council, they are the ones that wish for a "diverse metagame" whatever that means. I'm just pointing out how they have monumentally failed in that endeavor. You Say cm val and band Val are 2 different Mons? Well then try running them both together in The same team see what happens then, spoiler alert: they are the same mon as far as team validity is concerned. "But mine has 10 more speed ev's! It's a totally different Beast" sure it is buddy
I can see why people would still like single style seeing there is certain things but I can see more why doubles is so good. Doing doubles is surprisingly so much more in planning doing crazy mixtures in pokemon and it could be more exciting.
Smogon single players and VGC double players should come together and point and laugh at the Smogon doubles players, the fence sitters of Pokemon
Personally I think that Pokemon should implement a mode that allows you to play the game with all battles being either Single or Double battles. It's very odd that the official competitive format of the game is doubles, but the single player mode generally only requires a couple mandatory ones, and iirc the Elite 4 and champion don't even have a single one.
i think i would be much more likely to play a 6v6 singles tourney if you only brought one team. its intimidating to me that i would have to learn multiple teams to have the best chances
I think that’s the point. There’s more to Pokémon than what you do in a battle. Your expression of skill starts the moment you open the team builder, and being able to make and effectively use more teams than your opponent means that you’re more deserving of a win than they are.
ayo speedrun mention
as a pokemon speedrun enjoyer it tugs at my heart to see that
Gamefreak has had 15 years, since VGC Doubles started in 2009, to normalise the Doubles Fomat. 15 years to make their games use Doubles on all battles through the story mode and post-story - *they still haven't done it!*
If they had done that in the last 5 years (and allowed Singles to be a setting you can enable via in-game options), people would accept Doubles being the norm. But that would require actual work and innovation to make interesting NPC battles and code in the Single setting. 🤣
Colosseum is great
@tecul1 Colosseum is a spin off game made by Genius Sonority, and Gamefreak have yet to replicate their awesomeness.
@@tecul1most people dont have a GameCube
They’d need to make some serious changes beyond that for me to ever accept doubles as the norm. Double battles as they exist now are so much less interesting than singles despite the mountain of changes and new additions that Game Freak is pushing to try and make doubles the accepted format.
Because, ironically, it's harder to balance a single player experience for a 2v2 format than a 1v1. Let me explain my point. Pokemon walks around this sharp edge where it has to please both kid and "casuals" AND the new, growing, competitive fanbase. Now, imagine the 9yo Timmy having to face the multiple decision making of 2v2 where his overleveled starter will STILL be killed because they continue to double target him. Isn't just easier for Gamefreak to let 9yo Timmy spam Torch Song and feel cool about his crocodile friend? Considering protect, the most important move in VGC being a TM, how will they do before they get that MT? Shouldn't they give their player easier access to moves like Fake Out/Twind/TR? And when you give these powerful moves more accessibility, how will this impact the wider game? We saw how Scald impacted the meta for being "too widespread". So, what is the solution? Make Timmy play single, let the competitive player play the 2v2 format, and balance the overall strength on that.
Pokémon isn't SMT that can pull off squad battle and kick players ass like nothing.
The only way would be having a difficulty/style option that lets the player decide the ruleset. But you really expect the same SH that gave us Scarlet and Violet to balance their game TWICE?
I like watching both singles and doubles content, the only real gripe i have is people in both formats titling their videos as "competitive pokemon" not specifying whether it's singles or doubles.
This isn't a problem in terms of causing confusion, as most channels stick to one format, so as long as you're familiar with the channel you know what format you're getting.
The problem i have, is that it implies that whatever format the channel in question is playing is THE way to play competitive pokemon, even if that implication isn't intended on behalf of the video creator and i think this does in some small ways help increase the divide between the two formats and their communities which i think most people can agree is not desirable. As such i strongly recommend that regardless of what format one plays or prefers that if you're going to include the words "Competitive Pokemon" in your video or stream title, please just add "Singles" or "Doubles" somewhere to help emphasize that both formats are and can be competitive.
There isn't a best competitive format, it's all based on preference.
Doubles is more fast paced, and every decision matters. But this also makes it so that it's a prediction heavy format, and the fact it's in-game means teambuilding is quite a long process. Sure, lately there's been a myriad of tools to help with it, but then there's the different regulations that render some Pokémon unviable becas of the new environment of the new regulation.
Singles is more fast paced, but you also gotta make predictions. And there's entry hazards existing to punish your enemy from switching around constantly and reduce that movement. But then there's stall, which is frustrating to fight, and also the fact that later games are extremely unbalanced because new additions only have VGC in mind, and not singles.
Whether you like Doubles more than Singles is a personal thing, but that won't make it better than the other.
I’ll never understand why everyone points to stall as a downside of singles. Stall teams are some of the most fun to play with and against if you actually like the game of Pokémon beyond just clicking the super effective move and seeing big damage happen. Long-term planning is essential whenever stall teams are involved, and that makes the game way more fun in my opinion. Most people don’t even understand stall as a concept. The best stall teams don’t sit there and do nothing for the entire battle, they start the game aggressively in order to limit the opponent’s options or cripple their team in some way. Then, when the opponent lacks a solid option of breaking through, you basically just choke them out the entire match because your team lasts longer than theirs does. It’s a fascinating way to play the game, but babies whose attention spans only lasts for about 20 turns will cry about it forever. The fact that you’re having a battle that lasts 100 turns against a stall team means that the stall team is beating you. If you don’t want to play for 100 turns, then get good. Options like taunt and hazard control exist for a reason. Maybe start using them instead of 6 setup sweepers.
No, sorry, the enlightened middleground take doesn’t work here. VGC is objectively a better competitive format for in person tournaments, especially with open team sheets.
Significantly faster games, much less game variance, more complex and impacted turns, and more naturally balanced as a format. Sure you can do a pick 3 singles format but then it will become very rock-paper-scissors with almost no team variety.
You are free to enjoy playing whatever format you like more. Most people play through the games and enjoy singles, I get it. But there are a lot of reasons why VGC is the official competitive format and singles is not.
@ Objectively better? No lmao. The only objective upside is that matches are faster, which only matters for in-person events. Everything else is definitely a matter of preference. I love singles and think VGC is garbage, but even I wouldn’t say that singles is objectively better, since people obviously enjoy different things.
@@Steflora I completely understand how Stall isn't just an automatic win button, as you have to accordingly play your cards to preserve your defensive pillars on the endgame. It being especially painful in places like Gens 5 and 9, where the power level is so high it's not even funny.
But although it's a skillful playstyle, it is not a fun one to fight against, because you have to take your resource management and crank it up to 11. Which is not a very fun thing to administrate even 2% of health on a Pokémon just to make sure you position yourself well enough.
The reason why it's counted as a downside is how unfun it is, and how much it drags out tournaments when it's used.
@@genarftheunfuni5227 You said that you have to crank your resource management up to 11 when playing with or against stall. In other words, you just described what makes it so fun. Pokémon is all about resource management in the end, and stall just takes it to the extreme. There’s nothing unfun about it unless you just don’t like playing competitive Pokémon. Like I said before, if you don’t like playing 100+ turn games, then build a team that beats stall. It’s not that hard, since stall isn’t top meta in any format. In fact, great players say that any team you build should be able to break through a stall core, as that’s the ultimate sign of a good offensive core. If your team always loses to stall, then it’s not a good team, and it’s your fault.
If there is 1 thing that struck out to me in this video is that air of elitism VGC players have over us smogon enjoyers. Listen, I like wolfe glicky Boy, as does 99% of the wntire pokemon world, but some of his content makes my stomache turn. Have you seen his recent videos? Bro doesnt even try to acknowledge our existance. His videos are so devoid of the format nuisances its like I step into a different deminsion every time I click on his thumbnail. Now contrast this with the absolute gigachad that is moxie boosted and you can really begin to appreciate pokemon gaming in its entirety.
Moxie is another VGC juggernaut who dedicates himself to his craft and HIS format, but unlike wolfe, he doesnt forsaken the other side of competitive pokemon. He doesnt even talk about singles all that much. He will go on about the nuisances of VGC formats for 99% of his videos and then give a shout out about how we smogon goons still die to rocks in 2024. Its not much but it damn sure is comforting to know a homie from the other side knows whats good in the smogon neighborhood. In fact, for me its the relatability and lack of blatent forsaking that helps me appreciate VGC all the more. I dont want to engage in VGC gameplay at all, but when his thumbnail drops, I get to button mashing.
I say all this to say that I do feel the underlying tension between the two communities, and I think its retarded. Both sides have something to offer and saying 1 side is strictly superior over the bc its backed by the devs is silly. Thats just my spin on it though. Im actually just a casual who mainly plays smogon bc broswer go brazy. Yall have a good 1
Moxie has (and might still?) play lots of smogon OU
Wolfey has little to no experience with smogon (as far as I know he’s mostly on played singles draft league)
That’s why
The argument is silly, its like comparing smash to tekken, theyre similar but say they're the same is silly and reductive. Doubles promotes different gameplay, you cant play stall in VGC you'll get blown up, in singles stall can be viable. If you bring a random niche shitmon in VGC is a lot more viable because if it sucks in a matchup you dont have to bring it, while it can be dead weight on a singles team. Singles has the amazing tiering system so if I dont like the format, I can play another one, and if I want to play Gen 2 I can play Gen 2. That isn't possible in doubles with the rotating ruleset, which can keep things fresh but if I love a ruleset its gone in two-three months.
You've quickly become one of my favorite YTers. Thanks for getting me into Gen 3 OU!
LEAGUE OF LEGENDS MENTIONED
As someone who plays league competitively for a college team, it's kind of interesting how many references to strategies in competitive pokémon we've used.
Just one example is the concept of type/strategy overload, where if you run, let's say, a rain team, it doesn't matter if they have one rain counter or specifically water type counter because if you can get past that you can theoretically blow up the rest of their team. I think friezai mentioned it in one of his videos, and You can do something similar in League. Just one example
For breakfast today I had buffalo wings with an apple arugula salad
Actually many years ago it was CybertronVGC who was very important in growing the competitive scene for VGC. It was in my favorite format, Gen 6 VGC. Wolfe came to tournaments with unique teams but this was only showcased in matches commentated by Aaron Zheng or by TPCi staff.
The thing about singles is so many concessions need to be made to keep it competitive.
Remove entire sections of the game (GMax ban), introduce Sleep and Freeze clause, etc. etc. etc.
In a format without these limitations you can literally just run Spore Smeargle and run train on entire teams.
My thing with the “adapt” argument is that certain moves and abilities exist for a reason.
Like evasiveness is disliked, but no guard, compound eyes, blizzard+hail, thunder+rain, smart strike, and aura sphere are all there for a reason, but because we remove evasiveness(except contrary Defog) these strategies are rarely used.
Or banning trapping abilities, when pivoting moves and even shed shell exist to keep that in check.
the 1 single type of item in vgc is very cool, every tournament should be played like that because although restrictive it does breed creativity, something I dont like about smogon gen 2 ou is that everyone uses leftovers and not using it is a huge detrimental cause everyone else has it
Your analysis around the 10 minute mark actually reminds me about the analysis of the cultural difference between sumo and American football. Sumo is very quick and decisive, whereas football provides multiple opportunities to play for a win, and how the differences in the sports we play reflect cultural differences between japan and america
Wolfe is really a hero for the VGC scene, and does it all with a very positive and family friendly channel. I am a big fan and personally grateful to the guy
I've had lots of fun in my 27 years of life w/both formats. 🗿
Excellent work Jim, there is too much snobbery about formats. I would love to see a more unified community that is comprised of all formats.
The safe and perhaps boring answer is that there's room for both, it comes down to personal preference, and having different formats helps diversify things to give people more options and make things more interesting.
Do you wanna go by the official tournaments and such, you play doubles.
If you actually want to have fun, you play singles.
The Incineroar on the thumbnail is excellently drawn. Bravos to you
Pokemon having two different competitive communities is an asset, since people can play where and how they want. Being mad that both exist together is like being angry that two restaurants are across the street from each other.
Brilliant video, you truly are a fucking deadset legend of the Pokémon TH-cam world. Such a balanced, thorough, and thoroughly enjoyable video.
0:12 Aklo's Link vs Zain was so hype last weekend.
Open team sheet is so much better than close team sheet
Needing to bet on which set a specific Pokémon is been running is horrible
I never loved Smogon's decisions on sleep, evasion, etc, becaused I really enjoyed the in game 6v6 back in gen 6/7. However, Showdown's ease of use and accessibility makes me appreciate all they do a lot.
I can think of no better Spokesman for Pokemon. Go Jim, you are literally insane.
all i would love is for GF to make a 3rd format which is 6vs6 singles, nothing else, just keep the same rules as current VGC, kinda what Freezai said before, they know about Smogon otherwise heavyduty boots wouldnt exist, so a little extra would be fun
I think Smogon's issue is that the game just isn't congruent to 6v6 singles in modern gens. The added mechanics just spiral out of control in a singles environment. I think a pick 4 system would help alleviate some of the matchup fishing. Smogon isn't an evil empire, but gen 9 makes me feel that the amount of stretch 6v6 singles has is running out. Like smogon said, they already have a modded version of the game to keep most metagames in check with sleep clause. There is definitely a desire to be more cartridge accurate but then you just have to ban certain mechanics, which people also don't seem to like. They're in a lose-lose situation, and as power level increases and mons become more volatile in their ability to win a game on a single turn, the issues singles has will only get worse from here on, I fear.
But I feel like there's something more genuinely pokemon about a 6v6 fight like you would a trainer in the games
The most obvious proof of this is provided by a cursory glance of the "ban lists" of Smogon versus VGC. Stealth rocks, sleep, Mega Rayquaza (in unrestricted formats), are all things that are completely fine and even somewhat balanced in VGC.
@brzt4256 stealth rocks are not banned what
@@plebulus To me it never felt like that, at least compared to the games. The amount of switching alone completely removes that feeling for me.
It does for casual games vs friends, but usually we just play random battles or free for all at that point, because having to build a team for a meta that's gross like that feels exhausting.
From a competitive standpoint, right now, I don't think Smogon works well. It works, but barely, and only with a lot of clauses and special rulings. At that point it doesn't feel like a 6v6 fight I'd have with a trainer in the games now matter how much you squint. And the competitive side of it is both boring to watch and has this insane one turn wins with how mons are designed nowadays.
VGC's smaller teams, pick 4 system, no dupe items and rotating formats help keep it fresh. It's both more fun to play and to watch. Meanwhile in singles, at least for me, it has turned into whoever gets their sweeper to get away with the boosting move first. Oh and sometimes it's just a 5v6 cuz one of the mons gets hardcountered by the other team. I just don't think it works in modern pokemon with team preview and the amount of mons in the game. Older metagames do work, imo.
@OnlyNeedJuan I always think about it like how people are always going on and off the bench in a baseball game, or like in wrestling where when they tag in their teammate, idk I have not played THAT much singles but it doesn't really feel THAT weird for me
Unrelated note but last weekend I won a 300 dollar cash prize local in my city with yanma
Still want the Battle Royal mode as a competitive format, even if it's not playable outside of Gen 7.
- Set Level 51+ to Level 50
- Bring 6, Pick 3
- Battle ends when one player is out of pokemon
- Points are awarded based on placement (determined by KOs and remaining Pokemon Count, with Remaining mons being a tiebreaker)(1st gets 4 points, 2nd gets 3, etc.)
- No Legendary/Mythical Pokemon
- No Duplicate Pokemon
- No Duplicate Items
- No Mega Evolutions (for Gen 7)
- No Ultra Beasts
- Items can be traded between party members between games
- Player with the most points after 4 games wins the match (Mario Kart style)
- Spread moves have power reduced by 50%
- Exclusive Z-Moves are banned
- Z-Celebrate is banned
I started with singles like most people and ended up playing vgc because I hate 100+ turns battles of nothing. Game is designed around doubles, thats why pp stall is a thing in singles
Even worse is FunBro
smooth brain takes from vgc glazers
I would like to mention that singles has a much easier time gathering information over vgc, with the overall greater average amount of turns and the free usage of a calculator. Especially with tera mechanics, which is already controversial in singles, would completely twist vgc without open teamsheets.
I really like how you approach this topic, both formats should be respected and appreciated!
However I think that you and many other people tend to overlook that there is a competetive singles format, Battle Stadium Singles (the name 'Battle Spot Singles' that you mentioned in the beginning of the video has been retired since Gen 7). I know that not many people play it in the west, but it is still an official format and has a gigantic community in Japan and east Asia.
To give you some perspective, the biggest BSS TH-camr has over a million subscribers (and reached that milestone before Wolfey did) through only uploading gameplay with some editing and commentary in Japanese (missing out completely on international audiences, unlike Wolfey or Aim). The official in game singles ladder also has way more player than the VGC ladder in game. The ladder also is extremely competitive and reaching a top spot at the end of a month is one of the most difficult achievements in all of competetive Pokemon.
I know that this video addresses only the western Pokemon scene, but I think it's an interesting aspect of this 'debate' that it completely changes once we look at the country where the whole franchise originates from (Smogon formats are hardly played in Japan in case anyone is wondering). VGC is sort of present in both the east and the west and I believe VGC is in both cultures overall still the slightly less popular format compared to the regional singles counterpart (assuming that we combine all smogon formats). I could be wrong on that last point, due to VGC's rising popularity, but nonetheless I think it is important to point out that BSS undeniably has a huge player base and deserves to be at least mentioned as a major part of competitive Pokemon.
Although I play mainly BSS, I love all 3 formats and I'm happy that there are so many options to enjoy competitive Pokemon :)
it's like melee hating ultimate and vice versa, it is so stupid.
i've played both formats for about 20 years now, and they are both fun and intriguing at the same time
Does Holk Hogan still prefer singles?
"Pokemon can be enjoyed in so many different ways" well said Mr. Jim ❤
I remember (vaguely) the days of Shoddy battle, and I guess the early days of showdown. Pre gen 5, when I would run amazing sets like Swords Dance + Brave Bird Skarmory. Meteor Mash Clefable, as well. And my win-con in many a game being Curse + Rest Swampert.
The early days of Gen 5 as well, before the western release. So we used pokemon such as "Rankurusu" as opposed to Reuniclus. Rankurusu + Roobushin (had to look that one up tbh) being my favorite team core back then.
The social aspect was great, too. I remember playing games of Mafia with dozens of people in them. As well as "clans" run through IRC channels. I don't remember my clan's name (Devastation or destruction might have been in the name?), but I do remember our naming scheme was "sexy" + "favorite pokemon" + "z". Mine being "sexyleafeonz," unfortunately.