Ignore The Backlash, Manual Milling Just got Easier.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
- This video demonstrates 2 different methods to eliminate the backlash headache, or greatly reduce it on machines without DRO's.
For manual machines, THIS IS A MUST WATCH.
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My forehead is all red and sore from being slapped repeatedly with "Why didn't I think of that?" Those are the best tips. Thank you very much.
I just wanted you to know that I have set up a TH-cam account just to comment on this video. I'm 54 years old and watched countless TH-cam videos some of which have been made by you. Yet this video is special Joe. It simplifies a problem I've faced with my Mill for quite sometime and just felt I needed to be able to say Thank You for sharing your skills and knowledge in machining. As a mechanic for 30+ years I have always enjoyed sharing trick if the trade with guys just starting out. Even now at my age I can appreciate simple solutions to over thought problems and this surely demonstrates a simple solution for us novice/shade tree want a be machinists. As a mechanic I know precision is the key to quality yet have fought to achieve it at home. This will definitely help.
Setting two zeros and using an indicator for Y, that's what I was taught very early in my learning, it was one of the most valuable things I was ever taught, the second most was machinist buttons and a very good indicol setup.
I was fortunate I had three very experienced, knowledgeable machinists teaching me, one had worked at pratt and whitney, GE, General Dynamics, and a few other places, and had been licensed as a repair technician for the CNC by the manufacturer and was licensed to work on the Fanuc controller on the machines we were using, The guy was brilliant, the other was someone he had trained and worked with for a very long time, and the third was trained by both of them. I also had a very talented tool maker that was very willing to help if I asked his advice. It's not lost on me how fortunate I was. Their training though was great, you were not allowed to touch a CNC until you could make brilliant parts and fixtures on the manual machines, in their words "You learn on a manual machine, you see a CNC and go wow, those guys are amazing machinists" but then you go work on a CNC and realize, no, it's an amazing machine, but if you know how to make the part manually, understand the physics, and the math, you'll be a better CNC machinist, those who don't understand those issues may make good parts, but when things go wrong you can still make a great part." They weren't wrong.
I was also fortunate early on in their training, they had sandvik come in for a training seminar, to teach about tooling, cutter types, and carbide tool selection etc. if I struggled with anything they would create a theory and number test and a practical exercise. my department head would also if I wanted to learn something or couldn't find the information, he would... how do I want to phrase is... "accidentally leave a book open to the relevant pages, with sticky notes in relevant sections on his desk before he left". Basically if I didn't have the books or source of information I needed, he would take the time to find it in his collection, mark the parts I needed and leave it for me. I was exceptionally lucky to work with the guys I did. They also had a disposition of "If you don't have the tools in your box that you need, my keys are in this spot, use mine, as long as you clean and return them"
I miss working with those guys lol
Awesome story. Hope you stayed in touch with them. I got one of These guys in my apprenticeship too. He really cared that WE learned a lot more than we needed and gave so much valuable information when you asked him.
His specialty was precision grinding. He still got called years after he left when there were some problems with grinding some strange inside round features within one micron(1000th Millimeter) in his old machines.
Any machine capable of that precision, should not have any problems.
Hope you are doing like they did with you, pass on the knowledge. Cheers
@@zedostenso3069 I share my knowledge whenever I can, something I hated early in my life was older people constantly going "You kids these days don't know how to do anything" then refusing to teach. So now that I'm in a position some of them once were, I teach anyone that will learn from me. Whether that's machining, cooking, woodworking, or life in general, because I saw a lot of "we don't have time to teach you" in my life.
As a backlash battler, these techniques are pure gold for getting the most out of my non-dro mill - thanks for sharing
They won't solve 100% of the problems, but can make the day easier.
You are truly a fountain of knowledge & I very much appreciate all of your videos. I have a Bridgeport & a KBC 12x24 lathe. A gunsmith friend comes over to use them once or twice a week, he has 30+ years experience on both while I'm "self taught". I asked him one day if he knew what "self taught" really means? It means, my teacher knows nothing about the subject he's teaching. However, thanks to you, This Old Tony & Mr. Pete I'm finally getting some quality instruction from people who have the necessary knowledge & experience required to teach the subject at hand. I like you three especially because each of you has the ability to present the lesson in a way that's easy to understand & stays with you. I like Mr. Pete's stories & his "Grand Pa" demeanor. This Old Tony has a great sense of humor & his editing is very creative. You are cut to the chase, simple is best, draw it out then real world demo & that approach, I think, has the best chance to connect with the widest variety of brain/learning types.
Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.
I couldn't have said it better. Thanks RM and Thanks Joe.
Always set a little drag with your table locks so the table does not wander by itself. Don't lock and unlock until you are completely finished with all of your operations . Also, don't touch the knee lock. There are inherent movements in all of the way surfaces that will NOT even show up on the readouts because of the " slop" in the ways. Even raising and lowering the knee will change your "zero" x and y settings as the machine is not that square and if your head is not trammed perfectly true, the geometry changes your locations. This is especially true when machining pockets and putting holes in location. Remember, it's just a vertical mill with readouts.
Thanks. You've convinced me. I need a DRO.
WOW! You did it Exactly how I learned it on a Bridgeport at 14 years old---47 years AGO! I'm glad you present "Old School" techniques for the younger audience--Much of which will likely be lost with time and automation as the years march on. Thanks for all you do!
Glad to do it. Core skills are valuable.
So simple when it is explained properly, just like the way you have done it Joe, thank you ! I get so much from watching your videos it's not true!
I appreciate you checking them out. Thanks.
Joe, I just have to tell you "Thank you" I am just learning to machine and I can't get enough of your videos. You are so informative and a great teacher! I look forward to each and every video, whether a quick tip or 40 min how to, just amazing. Some day I might actually figure out what I'm doing and it will be largely due to you and your videos. Thanks again and please keep making videos.
You are very welcome
Good tips - I came across the creeping X axis problem when a particular job created a lot of vibration and the X axis crept a full half turn! I cut another key-way at 180 degrees opposed in the hand wheel and that fixed it!
Keep making these informative videos Joe as they are a good refresher of useful techniques for those of us who are starting to forget them!
Another great one Joe. I was trained back in the 70's in a tool and die shop with out any dro's . It's important to know how to do it competently the old school way. Keep em coming.
I watched this video when it first came out and just re-watched it now.
Thanks for the effort you put in to show "us amateurs" how things should be done.
The information and knowledge you provide is invaluable.
Every time I watch your videos I pick another little snippit of information or method that helps my amateur machining.
Show and tell videos are fine, but I watch technical videos to learn. This topic is my life. I take it very seriously and hope to deliver value with every video I post. Thanks for watching.
I swear, every time I watch one of your videos, I feel both smarter and dumber at the same time. I've had a Bridgeport for years and only ever used the right dial. Thanks for the knock up side the head.
Didn't work for me Joe, I ignored the backlash at home and she still hit me...
Joe I've been watching your channel from the first one you posted .you have made work a lot easier (I've been Machining for 40+years)i wish you had posted this one sooner lol. thanks for all vids joe they are really helpful
This is way better than going machine shop school.
cheaper too.
Super cool trick using both dials to eliminate X axis backlash... I can't wait to use this trick on my old Bridgeport mill... she has a few miles on her so this will be HUGE in helping me make better parts with less headache!
Thanks Joe!!
I didn't fully digest the "in class" materials at fitst but the live demonstration put everything into perspective and had an A-ha moment. Thanks Joe!
I've found the best cure for backlash is forgetting how many turns of the handle you've made and having to go back to the beginning.
Hilarious! But true... I've been there. 😁
Great tip on opposing the x axis handles. So simple but I never thought about doing it!
Another interesting solution to a common problem. Even though I have a DRO, it's nice to keep the ideas in the back of my brain. You never know when it will pay off.
Brilliant! Just brilliant Joe! So many light bulbs going on over my head. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for stopping in Guy. Stay well.
Super kudos for this. It is a trick I learned circa 1971. The y axis backlash is what you need to know for the particular mill. I learned before digital readouts were around. However, every Bridgeport mill in that shop had optics on each axis. One used the optics if one needed to do close work. Once again super kudos for explaining how to use the opposing cranks on the x axis to dispel backlash worries.
I did an apprenticeship in Fitting and Turning in 1972, this is the first time I have had that technique shown to me,,,,many thanks
Clear as mud indeed... No, that was a perfect demonstration of how to "easy" (w/o dro) avoid error reading due to backlash. Thank you, Joe Pie.
BTW, I usually say "Clear as fog"
THat made perfect sense. The whiteboard then going to the shop is always very helpful
I need to watch this again and the second time and take notes that I can refer to later on.
Excellent video. Short, and sweet, minimal chatter and very useful. Having used a non-DRO machine for 35 or so years, it's good to see the old-school methods are still alive. By the way, I installed a dro kit from Ebay last year. Cheap (
Clear as mudd, no it was amazing. You have so many surprises it's incredible. I never in all these years thought about countering weight differential by simply offsetting the handles and the trick on a pocket of eliminating backlash, fantastic. Thank you Joe.
Thanks Joe, another little nugget of experience given. I am still getting over the sharpie marker marks to keep track of where you are. I think of you every time I mark my lathe or mill. Please keep these simple tips coming, they make a big difference.
Yes, I agree with Crow Foot, I wish that I’d been taught this well at training school. Regards
Thank you.
It's amazing!!! The more I learn..... The smarter you get!!! As always - Thank You
Thanks Eric. Stay well.
I was lost when you were "chalk talking" then you moved to the machine and it all became clear!!!!! Thanks again for another great tip!
A must watch for any of us using manual (and sloppy) machines !!
It certainly can't hurt.
Always a pleasure Joe!!! Thank You!
Really appreciate that you take the time and effort to make these informative videos. Thank you.
Thank you many times over, i have watched several of your videos and love them, i am just getting started in machining building my first model engine, needed some advice on manual non dro operations, this is clearer than mud even for me.
That opposing handle trick is a good one - fortunately my mill was so caked up with grease when I bought it that it would hold no matter where it was XD. Thanks for all the great videos sir, I have been learning a lot from you this past month. Keep up the good work!
Thanks Again Joe! Always helpful for a REAL machinist to bring the solid basic facts to the novice. My parts are looking so much better because of you!
Great video. I installed a 3 axis DRO on my mill years ago and rarely, if ever, use the dials anymore. Stay healthy.
That's the thing with a decent dro. Once you've got that setup your happily spoiled forever. Backlash ain't the issue it once was.
Thank you for this, I have been struggling with this issue over and over in my manual class when I work on the mill.
Again thank you.
Makes total sense to me! I was always taught cut in one direction to make backlash go away and this adds some extra quality of life tips.
I really enjoy what you have to teach all of us.... especially us who just do machining on a part-time basis
I keep thinking, surly joe pie is out of cool new tricks. Not a chance...slick idea
Very good tips. My mill has handles that contain springs as a safety feature when using X power feed, so both X's just dangle vertically, instead of rotating at high speed. There is a similar setup on the power Z, in that it will not operate under power, if the Z crank is in place.
Joe, two things, firstly stick your head under the table and adjust your nut backlash eliminator, 0.030" backlash is excessive, should be 10 thou or less depending on the wear over the length of the leadscrew. Secondly about having the table handles offset, if you have tablepower feed, usually the handles are spring loaded and will sit wherever. I see you have fixed yours as I did Great tips though, thank you.
Should be noted that if using the first method shown on whiteboard (starting and doing both climb and conventional to where you are always cutting turning the handles in the same direction) that when you return back to your zero point for the 2nd set of cuts, you have to make sure to go past your zero and then come back to it. If you dont, then you are not really at your zero but rather off by the amount of backlash in the leads.
Kind of surprised that Joe forgot to mention this (unless he did and I just missed it).
I was thinking the same thing.
Let's see if anyone else can shed some light on your comment.
@58 Marine Climb/Conv milling would be the price to pay for starting in upper LH corner rather than going round... Can't have it all
@58 Marine Yep. But then again in a garage on an abandoned island you do what you gotta do
For a milling machine operator this video is life changing.
Thank you for taking the time to show there little time savers. As a self taught machinist I really enjoy your videos
Always great stuff. Thanks for teaching, Joe
Great tips Joe. I measured my BL and wrote the numbers down on a piece of plastic and have them on display at the mill. I find that handy too. I've often used a dial indicator on both axis, but your idea on the X is way better.👍
the visual example is where it all came together for me, thanks Joe:)
Excellent Joe this is the first thing any a new machineist should learn especially if you're operating a Bridgeport good tip thanks
Thanks Mr Joe
Glad to see you still posting videos.
Stay safe.
That’s a great way of keeping the backlash out of your work in the X axis 👍👍
You are always thinking Joe! I use both X dials a lot but never thought about climb milling 2 sides and conventionally milling the other two sides.
I'm embarrassed to say I've been using a manual mill in my home shop for years and never knew this trick. Mucho thanks Joe.
It should help make things easier when you can apply it.
Yes sir that is great tip and trick. Thanks joe!!! I though you would do your tape and marker trick on the “Y” dial.
My 30 year old Enco has the same amount of backlash as your machine. Now I don’t feel so bad about it. When I first got into making chips fly I was taught to mind the backlash and I’ve always compensated for it at the dial but not how you showed. Seeing your demo is something else I can add to my toolbox.
Clear as mud! I'm trying.
This became frequent practice while I was making dies on my last job. We didn't have a jig bore so we had to rely on BP accuracy.
This is an awesome tip for those of us with no DRO. Both the idea of two L cuts and the setting of the two handwheel index dials to build out the backlash. THANKS! Off to set my dials up right now.
But technically if the cutout starts with two "L" slots before we clean out the middle they wouldn't really be climbing or conventional. Or was the intent that this was the final pass to clean up the outer sides of the pocket... which, come to think of it, would be the better way to do this anyway... OK, so climb and conventional it is....
I'm also wondering about the idea of two separate index markers on the Y axis wheel. My mill uses a little riveted on marker with two rivet holes that I can drill out and tap for something like 4-40. I'd remove that and make two separate index markers which will attach with screws. One will be fixed and the other with a slotted hole so I can compensate for changes in the backlash over time and wear. I'll email you a picture.
Just finished setting up a new mill in my workshop. Great tip! Thanks Joe!
Its good to keep in your bag of tricks. Good luck with your mill.
So simple Joe and yet so effective, thank you. love your vids , be lucky!
brilliant thanks Joe, i've never used the dial on the right crank handle before and I don't have a DRO , the mill has more slop than my grannies trifles so this will help a lot!
Another great video. And one of those "Shoot - why didn't I think of that?" I definitely know a good idea when I steal it. I rely on my DRO's on my manual machine.. but sounds like a great thing to add to the manual maching toolbox! Thanks Joe Pie!
Glad it was helpful! Its good to have a grip on whats happening.
Most of your tips and tricks I would categorize as "obvious, but only after someone else points it out." I feel like this category should be finite and small, but you keep on making these videos one after another showing me just how big the category is or just how blind I am, probably both.
very good- using both dials on the x is something i never thought of
Just wanted to say thank you for making me a better machinist. Your videos are better than a tech school..
Glad to help!
Very informative video Joe !
Some months ago I bought a 6-26 mill without DRO but with a motordrive on the X.
Since I am a retired dentist, drilling is something I perfectly master 😊, but milling is something different and the backlash on my
30 yr old machine is something to worrie about. Your input here will certainly be of major benefit to my layman skills, thanks from Holland,
Best regards Karol
Excellent. I'm glad.
Clear as mud to me Joe , what about some spherical knurling !!! Cheers .
Joe Py - This week, in another episode of "Reasons to Install A DRO".
But seriously, good trick with using both dials on the X axis, and the counterbalancing of the handles. The idea to always cut in the same directions (wrt backlash) is more obvious, though the necessity of a climb cut won't always pan out, of course.
Keep up the good work!
It's so interesting how more then halfway through the video I have that light bulb go on and go "AHA"! Why did I never think of this. Answer: Come on we have to get this done asap that machine is down! ~My supervisor ....... Thanks Joe!
I call that the "NEXT TIME" syndrome. Like having a great idea for a fixture, but the boss says "next time". Next time comes around and you get the same answer. They always seem pressed for time and don't care to take a minute to save 10. Bosses must like spending money.
Very good tips and very clearly explained and demonstrated. The only two problems are that I am pretty much afraid of climb cutting, and that there was not enough time travel in this video.
This video was actually shot next year. I came back to post it.
@@joepie221 Impressive! Good to know you survived COVID.
The ball is supposed to be an exact counterweight for the handle. That's the reason it's there in the first place. If you already have well balanced handles you shouldn't need to worry about whether they are mounted the same or opposite on the shaft. It shouldn't make any difference at all.
The ball is supposed to be a counterweight, but half the machines I ever ran the handle was heavy.
Fantastic trick. I love it
Great content. Thanks for sharing.
I hadn't thought of balancing the cranks and using the two dials. Brilliant tips. Thanks!
Although isn't the ball opposite the handle supposed to balance it?
@@adamnorton9595 I believe that the handles are balanced, as you said, but if the handles are out of phase the lead screw won't be balanced.
@@adamnorton9595 Yes, if it's been properly designed.
Nice Video. When you are machining on the x axis it is best to set the dial on the end that is clockwise or reading from zero to two hundred rather then the other way around. That way you always remember which end that you zeroed. The x axis has a longer gib making the table more stable in that direction. It is interesting that you make a reference to digital readouts. The theory is that the scales do not care which direction the table travels. In fact if you are working to a tight tolerance you are better off taking out the backlash as you would if you had a machine without the digital readout. I have found that if you set an indicator on the side of the part and set the dro to zero and slowly turn the table in the opposite direction the indicator will move and the dro will not indicate the movement. I believe the reasoning behind this is that when you set stress on the table in one direction and then reverse the feed there is a small twist in the table.
Part of this is one reason we did any critical mill work on K&T 2D Rotary Hesd mills when i first started in the 70s. These where set-up with the indicators and master rod sets. In fact we never even had a Bridgeport until around 1984. The only thing close to a BP was either a couple of Tree's, a Cincinatti Tracer and two Gorton Mastermills. The Toolroom manager had a real dislike of Bridgeports I guess. Once we started to get CNC retro fits it was really easy to understand offsets etc.
That’s pretty cool.
I look forward to using a different zero for each handle on the x axis.
Thanks Joe my mill is so old its laughable but it has three things that make it worth while. One is the ways are good the screw is pretty tight and its motor is 240 single phase. But it sucks not having a DRO and the dials are not very good (only have one crank the other is missing) but indicators really help.
no mud actually quite clear. I do have a DRO installed, but now I understand why you commented on my one handled X axis a few days ago.
Another extremely useful video, thanks Joe.
Well done. I will apply this promptly.
A must watch indeed.
Thank you a lot sir.
Yep, backlash has got me before.
I don't have a DRO but this technique awesome. Thanks Joe !
Just don't forget to drive past zero before you reset to your starting point and it should work well.
It took me a while, but I think I get it now.
Basically, you're creating the same starting conditions for the two moves, if you return to the starting position in the same way each time.
Your a great teacher. Thanks!
I appreciate that!
👍 excellent tips and gold nuggets as always Joe. Thanks!
Thanks Joe- don’t think I would have figured that out on my own.
dang i have been watching your videos for a while some how missed this one. never thought to 0 the dials that way. for sure using this till i can spring for a DRO
Good tip.
Thanks for the video Joe.
Thanks Joe, that’s exactly the sort of instructive topic that makes your videos special.
Chris Taylor exactly- Joe certainly is a special kind of clever- a genius friend you can actually understand. Always unique topics and methods
More great information Thanks for your time and effort
This is all really clever and I wish I had thought of it yrs ago but a chinese dro is like $200. If you have never used a dro do yourself a favor. You will smack your forehead and say htf did I work without this? Have garage sale, take back your empties, tell your kid they don’t need braces, crooked teeth are a new thing or that Prom is for losers. Do what you gotta do and get a dro!
Yeah but... My dro does real well at telling me how screwed my part just became because of backlash. The part of the video where he shows starting in the y0 x0 (upper left) and going -y then +x or +x then -y may fix so many corners I have screwed up.
Thanks for a great tip!