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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2024
- Fraud is a $5 trillion “industry.” But not all its perpetrators look alike. Kelly Richmond Pope, a professor of accounting, breaks down who commits fraud - and why.
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When we think of someone who commits fraud, we think of people like Bernie Madoff or companies like Enron: intentional perpetrators of financial crimes. But other kinds of people commit fraud, too. Accounting professor Kelly Richmond Pope explains who else falls prey to the "fraud triangle", and they might be even scarier than the big bads.
0:00 How does fraud happen?
1:00 Meet Kelly Richmond Pope
1:28 The Fraud Triangle
2:18 Three types of fraudsters
2:26 Intentional perpetrators
3:50 Righteous perpetrators
4:20 Accidental perpetrators
5:56 And then there's Wells Fargo…
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About Kelly Richmond Pope:
Dr. Kelly Richmond Pope is the Dr. Barry Jay Epstein Endowed Professor of Accounting at DePaul University in Chicago, IL. Pope is a nationally recognized expert in risk, forensic accounting, and white-collar crime research, and an award-winning educator, researcher, author, and award-winning documentary filmmaker. She’s the author of Fool Me Once: Scams, Stories, and Secrets from the Trillion Dollar Fraud Industry (Harvard Business Review Press, March 2023). Pope teaches managerial and forensic accounting both at the undergraduate and graduate level.
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I was pressured by a supervisor to charge a client for labor we didn’t use. I provided a maximum estimate to the client, which included three days of crew labor, but we only needed two days. When I told my boss I was going to discount her final invoice, he was angry and told me not to tell the client. I said too late, I already was honest with my customer. I’m not charging them $4000 in labor we did not apply to their property. The supervisor was on the hook because he already submitted the entire project price to his higher ups, and then he was going to have to explain it. However, the reverse could be true, if a client found out we overcharged by $5000, not only would we have lost a $100K contract, they would have sued. And guess who would have taken the fall? Me.
Good job on asserting your morals and your reputation!
Out of curiosity, how did your superiors treat you afterward?
Don't leave us hanging, what happened next
Great example of knowing that there's no such thing as accidental fraud, claiming you didn't know is not an excuse for crime
Life-Time movie, here for it 🙃
My friend once told me when we were young, "Anywhere there's a substantial amount of money, there's corruption." At the time, I was naïve and thought he was overstating it. Now that I've experienced decades of adult life in a variety of settings, I've learned that he was spot on. Cheers, professor.
Not really that’s just your experience/perception
Yup! No billionaire is ethical.
@@DejaRichardsonArtpearls. Pigs.
Every corporation that makes $100 million pretty much has a full-time IRS teams dedicated to tracking their possible issues
@@DejaRichardsonArt Not really that’s just your experience/perception to your not really that’s just your experience/perception
Unfortunately our modern society values and selects for narcissists and sociopaths, both in business and politics.
when we abandon power at the top, it attracts the worst of us. Democracy is our only defense against abusive psychopatic rulers, and it's time we bring democracy into the workplace where it should have been since the French revolution, we got rid of kings in politics but not in our very workplaces.
Yep. And then those people tend to think of short-term personal gain before any longer-term or larger-group stuff. This helps to explain many of the world's most significant challenges, both historically and right now.
It’s so weird how people think you need a leader who is ‘hard-core’, but when those type of people hold power, the same ones who supported them, now complain about how it impacts them (but could care less about how it impacts others).
What society ever didn't
The ones erased by his-story, the indigenous people trying not to be assimilated into a one world order now... @bens5859
5:55 I worked for Sells Fargo many years ago and the pressure to sell was so strenuous, that some customers either walked into the branch with a defensive attitude or stopped coming altogether. I achieved Silver sales status, with a few sales short of gold, because I'm pretty good at sales and knew to whom and when to offer. However, my branch manager would sometimes stand behind me and urged me to sell, sell, sell with customers right in front of me. Of course, most times that didn't work and the customer left in a huff. Wells Fargo was more interested in sales than customer experience. I left that job as fast as I could.
She is right.
The problem is when you have family and loans and you cant protect yourself like when you are single.
I was that new person that saw something... I had been around the block enough to know how bad it could get, I told them we need to change, and ultimately I was shown the door... Well, they ended up getting brought before the SEC. I'm so glad I listened to my internal compass.
Good for you. I have witnessed someone doing the other (accidental). It's always ugly.
Which company?
You’d be getting bent over in prison if you were an accomplice. Good thing you didn’t comply.
If only it were as easy as simply “have a plan b, save up in case you have to leave to keep your options open and you don’t have to agree to doing questionable things.” Sadly, these days life is too expensive and we are paid too little to afford a rainy day fund.
exactly!
You have a spending problem.
Still you need to save what you can despite expenses.
It's remarkable how much of of the OP's comment went over the heads of some of you 🙄 (see last two comments above 👆)
Human greed. Price gouging isn't fraud but it's normalized and it's wrong.
The root of the problem in the example given of the accidental perpetrator within a corporate structure, is that corporations are legally beholden to shareholders to show a profit every quarter. With what we know about planetary boundaries and finite resources, this is a ridiculous law.
This was an excellent presentation. I appreciate her ethics and realistic approach to handling things.
The everyday pressures are the worst. You're just one disposable employee faced with a reputable, powerful organisation. Until things blow up, they can stomp you into nothing.
Well, once we all take a stand it will stop. It's that easy, but that hard
If you see something, say something immediatly and get it on record.
Because you are young and/or just entering the company, no one will care and they'll just brush you aside. THEN when it blows up (and it will!) you'll have that to fall back on. Cuz if you don't, you'll either be a criminal or an accomplice.
I speak from experience.
The 3 types of "people" stealing your money: corporations, corporations, and corporations
You forgot about Governments and Banks.
The FED steals your money everyday my friend. Inflation is pure theft. Corporations are peanuts in comparison.
@@axiosschmidt6001 Banks are corporate and doesn't being incorporated mean you're federally regulated?
True, I've had a pending transaction with Amazon on my Bank of America account for the past five business-days. I wouldn't be surprised if my money is sitting in some sort of investment account collecting interest for one of the two companies which is why my funds are delayed after I've been told, "we will refund you immediately".
@@axiosschmidt6001 Newsflash, governments ARE corporations ( look it up ). Banks too.
I got fired for being a whistleblower on an accidental perpetrator situation at Arrow ECS
“Accidental perpetrator” = “Bootlicker perpetrator”, and it can’t be all of us because some of us aren’t bootlickers.
Great video and thanks to Kelly for sharing these insights! Really gave me a different perspective!
Good video and scary subject matter. Thank you, Dr. Pope.
oh I've been saying this since long before wells fargo. I have observed these kind of crimes (done by employees to avoid being fired) for the last 35 years. it's one of the largest motivators of crime, absolutely
1:00 - “There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again.”
― George W. Bush 🤣🤣🤣
There are also people who are going thru a crisis like a terminal illness diagnosis and not being able to afford the treatment or specialist. Or those of us who have had a bad season of major drug addiction. So I guess there is a desperation aspect that seems to be missing here imo. A calculation of taking a 10% chance of jail for hail mary escape plan or to try to live another day. Other then that this was very informative and I will give it a like.
True, desperation can definitely lead to crime.
These 3 kinds are:
- bank managers
- politicians
- multi national corporations
-
Many years ago I had a seasonal job at a department store selling menswear. The training involved learning the 31 different was the sales tickets could be torn depending on the type of sale. I noticed that most sales resulted in trashing a will call stub that could be used to hold a purchase until the customer had finished their shopping that day. I pointed out the department buyer, the guy in charge, that the stubs could be attached to merchandise sent to will call and be picked up a confederate. I later learned that the buyer was fired for using this method to steal suits from the store. What happened was the Will Call clerk recognized the confederate as a relative of the buyer and thought that 15 suits was more than this person would be buying. The buyer was good boss and nice guy, but opportunity/temptation can be hard to resist.
"If you cant afford to quit....."
This resonated with me. I regret getting the COVID vaccine, but had just bought a house and couldn't afford to lose my job. A few months later the 3 of us who got the shots were so sick we were bed-ridden for 2 weeks. The 2 younger ones who didn't? They were fine, despite being in a house with us taking care of them the best we could.
Great info! Everyone must speak up.
What if the stealing is legal? For example, settler societies have governments that steal indigenous people's lands and give it to settlers in the new world.
Fascinating video! Thanks for sharing.
Funniest thing is that when you mix technology into the work, you can't tell is it accidental fraud or not when entry start turning erroneous. Easiest way is to always use a fraudulent account, signature, email , phone when indulging in the steal, cause you can always deny responsibility in the court.
It‘s not an accident, it is ignorance combined with enough dopamine in the system, to not question it XD, the phrasing „accidental“ is gold, to not upset the masses about it
Thank you Kelly Richmond Pope! Although a sobering account it was something we needed to hear. Rainy day fund aka FU money is always required.
It shows that many people in management are actually more corrupt than we think. The prob is these people don't get punished enough.
I feel like this applies to situations where employers unlawfully discriminate against people, pressure them to "speak up", but then gaslight them, offer to separate for way too little money, and then terminate them for less money, hoping they sign away their rights to compensation under anti-discrimination/harassment laws and instead only allow them to file a charge.
Just a couple weeks ago, my employee relations lead counsel said to me that "we all have our own code of ethics and not everyone on the employee side is lying, of course youre not, and not everyone on the employer side is evil trying to hide things. They are just trying to run a company as best they can using common principles, understandings, and risk management. At the End of the day, the company has to survive." In the end I was terminated for speaking up and now I have to figure out how I'm gonna make it :(
Find another job, and once you find one, keep hush and mind your business. It doesn't pay to be a whistleblower.
@otrebla8944 Apparently, it doesn't pay to be an award-winning employee for 11 years either. How am I already not minding my own business when it was my career and livelihood impacted?
@@otrebla8944 If you think you are safe you're wrong.
This take meddles things together: Fraud is fraud, you not knowing the law doesn’t justify it. If you steal something from someone else, it’s illegal. If you don’t know the law, hire a lawyer. Not knowing it or thinking it’s righteous doesn’t change anything. Also, if your employer forces you to sign something that’s illegal, that’s called coercion, unconscionability or it can be undue influence. The seven essential elements of a contract are:
Offer
Acceptance
Consideration
Legally competent parties
Meeting of the minds
Terms of the contract
Legality of purpose
Furthermore, no contract or agreement can obligate you to perform tasks that are illegal. To call somebody “righteous” for committing fraud is a contradiction in terms, it is also misleading and it makes little sense. Moreover, to invoke the sensation that “it could happen to anybody” and we should be scared because of that, is outright stupid and irresponsible. If you don’t know something, get informed!
People choose to do wrong in various situations. Doing the right thing can be difficult but it doesn't mean it can't be done.
Nobody should only rely on some job for life as the only source of income. That lacks financial knowledge and is financially dangerous. Stop buying products and services you do not really need and invest the savings.
That was a good one.
For over 20 years I tried to build a house in Jamaica I lost thousands of pounds during this period my mother died and we lost her share of her property,my father died and I lost my share of his property. Most of these problems involve lawyers and and the way they keep it going is to put fear into other lawyers so you can't fight any case because they won't take your case. That is only part of the story.
How many years did it take this professor to get to the realization that whistleblowers get fired? I’m glad she got there but how many other accounting professors obliviously go through their lives thinking it’s just as simple as reporting fraud.
Fired could be lucky. A relative of a friend was convicted of fraud. His story (at least) was that he and his family were threatened by executives at his company, and the accounting proof they were capable of following through came across his desk. If the fraud is enough money, who knows what else people will do to protect themselves from being caught.
i do love the title of the video
Serious question: in which category is the government to be placed?
Things appear strange right now. The value of the US dollar is declining due to inflation, but it is increasing in comparison to other currencies and commodities such as gold and real estate. People are flocking to the dollar because they believe it is safer. I'm worried that rising inflation will cause my $420,000 in retirement funds to lose value. What else could we do with our money
Sharing will save the world.
What about The Conjoined Triangle Of Success?
MY FAV PROFESSER
How many of those people at Wells Fargo were making enough money to create an adequate rainy day fund?
In my eyes a more general description of a righteous perpetrator would be of a person who felt it is justified to commit a fraud for some reason, it may be, as it is said in the video, to help someone, or if they felt they had no other choice, or if the perpetrator felt he was treated unfair in some way, so it could actually be subcategorized. And I wouldn't call the accidental perpetrator the actual perpetrator. If a person is misguided or manipulated into doing something then it's the manipulator who's the perpetrator, imo, though there may be situations where the the person knows he's doing wrong, then that's not an accidental perpetrator, he'd become what I'd call an unintentional perpetrator. The accidental perpetrator would most probably be a person who does not understand he is doing a crime.
Also, new person as 1st to notice makes fraud perfect for miniseries potential
Rainy day fund for the win!!!
Amazing video
Hanukkah celebrations seem like a common thread...
Three types of people stealing my money......kids kids and kids
Not people trying to commit fraud on a fraud video LOL
“The qualities described in a recruitment ad for the CEO of a Fortune 500 company are the same used to describe a sociopathic manipulator.” ~ Alsep Bahar Moridamus
Beware cake eaters. What happened to “if it sounds too good to be true”
Not only was a Wells fargo whistleblower fired, he was flagged as someone who coukd never get a banking job again.
YT alg: *this is sure to piss you off*
Me: *clicks*
I wouldn't say it was a pleasure to meet them.
HR departments are the biggest joke Ever.
all billionaires
That sounds like a dog whistle, just say what you want to say. We see you
💯
Interesting that even dyed in the wool conformist career office and organisational types are noticing and recognising that corporate decay and active rejection of reponsibility and ethics is, in fact, a problem, and it's affecting everyone, the same way pollution does. It's also altering the culture, and what we find acceptable, and what we expect from people.
this is something to consider now before the collapse of organizations unlike anything we've ever seen in our existence.....do you agree?
These are one of those videos you start watching in a pissed off mood lol. Greed will be destroyed one day! I have hope! 🎉
Lesson I learned from this don't help anyone😂❤ to avoid being an accidental perp. Jk love the show.
Lot of people will get mad if someone stealing their item or material but,,if that was actually true that someone stealing my things of course I'm get mad and make me to realise why should I mad and it make me to remember about the things i said like buy a human subject using money and make the subject as toy that no need to pay because we own them as the way the subject stealing or i should accept it as loan i give it using blackmail and make the world keep questioning them while I'm setup a conspiracy to make them do as what I'm have plan and predict,,because once they betray they are only subject in my soul don't have feelings and willing to kill it self because that is what they want then they do.
Businesses cannot be trusted to do the right thing. That’s why governments need to exist - to regulate them.
Yep. And governments can't be trusted to do the right thing. They literally fall into bed with the businesses and/or run the businesses themselves. Trusting the government to look out for your best interest is just as blind as trusting a business to. So when no big entity can be trusted...what then
yea as much as i would like to agree with you but as long as lobbying exists and corruption, which is inherent to capitalism, regulations will never work.
we could go to the roots and make business democratic like worker coops, like our government, one citizen/workee = 1 vote
Governments also cannot be trusted to do the right thing... mostly because of business influence.
Yes, political donations are a big part of the problem. Making them illegal doesn't end them, it just turns 'donations' into 'bribes' and they become even harder to track.
How could we *really* manage money's influence over the people's government?
Governments can't be trusted to do the right thing either.
Connections to Sidney Dekker’s Drift into Failure regarding the accidental fraudsters?
Feels a little like I’m being sold a wealth management solution at the end there.
From Singapore, people are losing their 401 k, banks and federal government won't be accountability. Imagine bank officials working with criminals to steal funds digitally from bank accounts.
What do the two individuals in the opening photo have in common?
Two white men
Hi folks remain vigilant
The comment that gives people a Google search leading to a scam on this video is so meta right now.
Naw, it ain't meta. What are you, OLD? It's QUASI, not meta, stupid.
@@shaggybreeks quasi : seemingly; apparently but not really.
They are literally one of the three people using one of the techniques that they talk about in the video. A sucker is born everyday.
7:06 save your money so that you are not beholding to a job. have a rainy day fund .... in case you have to get out of Dodge quickly.
Beholden.
Funny how Madoff was persecuted (rightly) for his ponzi scheme. Yet, “his name was even applied informally to an SEC rule which allowed market makers to sell stock short to facilitate a customer buy order, even if the stock in question was ticking downward.” SSR anyone? The Madoff Exemption. Still being done today.
The timing of Kelly Pope's enlightening video, "Meet the 3 kinds of people who are stealing your money," couldn't be more spot-on as we buckle up for the roller-coaster ride into the era of the AI-Assisted Criminal. This new wave of criminality, powered by artificial intelligence, promises to be the most convincing con job in human history. It's like leaving a teenager alone at home with the keys to the liquor cabinet and the car - what could possibly go wrong?
The video brilliantly dissects the three shades of fraudsters, painting a picture that's more reflective of us as a species than we might care to admit. It's a telling reminder that our moral compass needs recalibration. Ambition, desires, and the pursuit of freedom are all well and good, but without integrity, they're like a parent teaching their kid to ride a bike but forgetting the helmet.
The big question here is, "Says who?" Well, the answer is as clear as day. For society to function, there must be a foundation of morality. It's like playing a family board game - sure, you can cheat when nobody's looking, but then what's the point of playing at all?
Our species will eventually outgrow these kleptomaniac tendencies, but why wait for evolution when AI can give us a boost? Why not use AI to create an environment where asking for help isn't seen as a sign of weakness, and acting against one's moral grain isn't seen as a necessity? It's like a parent guiding a child - gently but firmly steering them away from bad decisions.
Hats off to Kelly Richmond Pope for shining a light on this critical issue with such clarity and insight. Her analysis is a much-needed parental 'time-out' for our society, urging us to reflect on the kind of future we're crafting. It's high time we learned that solving our problems doesn't require a ski mask and a getaway car. We can start by building a world where integrity isn't just a nice-to-have, but the very brick and mortar of our social structure.
In conclusion, this isn't just about avoiding the next Bernie Madoff. It's about raising our societal family right. With AI as our trusty nanny-cam, we've got a fighting chance to keep the family jewels safe for generations to come.
The saying goes, "where there is power (money = power) there WILL BE corruption." I believe this 100%. And even more so in modern day society.
When will you guys do a Big Think on "civil asset forfeiture?" Looking forward to that one too! 😏
The cleaner the hands, the dirtier the money.
Society isn't the problem it's corporate curruption among others that's the problem if the government would just go away we would all be living alot happier lives
- Central Banks
- IRS
- Corporations
My university is stealing my money promising that I'll get education. Why isn't it on this list?
If you have people working for you and you do not give them a paycheck then that’s not OK
Music was too loud and distracting IMO
Fraud is fraud unless it's for your boss or the giant bank
Any relation to Olivia Pope?
lol no but I feel like she's our real world Olivia Pope. Imagine if Olivia Pope became a professor, that would be her
@@Dakid015lol right? Finally someone is seeing it! I think Olivia Pope would make an awesome scientist.
Work people do all kinds of jobs to earn money so they can live a decent life retire. Have a family go to school and just be happier in life or they work for a corporate company like a bank or not people how to earn a living somehow to even just have a house a decent house to raise a family in or to support people with disabilities.
Max was here
3 types: your children, women, and the men in Suits
7:36 uh no. ALL of us could. nobody is gonna die if they quit their job tomorrow.
They might if they don’t have the health care tied to that job.
@@down-to-earth-mystery-school do you know stories of people quitting their jobs and dying as a result ?
I was really looking to enjoy your video, but unfortunately the repetitive backing track was simply too annoying. Please omit it from future videos as I would really love to listen to your opinions / advice. Kind regards to you.
Oh... You guys only narrowed it down to three? What's not trying to fleece us?
Slap in the wrist for Wells Fargo and Madoff. That's crony capitalism 😇
This has all been ethically solved way before. In fact, it was in in 1785. It's called the categorical imperative. Her categories seem very nonsensical to me. Her thinking only betrays the weakness of her and probably every accountants ethics. She really doesn't get it
Looks like the background is generated by A.I. Uhm
Ummm how can people afford to do the right and be able to quit their job if they need to? It's called social safety net and we don't have it in the US, other civilized countries do, not here.
See something say something is not how ive experienced the real world. I recomend being smart enough to understand the 1984 world we live in, play in the woods, and dont get so comfortable you rent the upstairs. 😢
B
4th - Taxes Taxes Taxes Taxes Taxes Taxes
No. Thats just bs talk some people use to manipulate you into voting for tax breaks to the rich and to defund impoetant public services. Funny enough that talk is prevalent in the US despite some of the lowest taxes of the developed world. It's absurd.
Age and of the scam.
What about fraud & theft through taxation?
What about it? Either expound about the opinion you decided not to deliver and/or make a video if you wanna talk about it. This video had a concise message that was delivered effectively
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Prison is the new church
Amazing how people work so hard to not work, think about it. If people just did their job they wouldn't have to scam others and would end up ahead of where they are now. Nature, God, or the Universe does not allow for free rides.
Now, however, those who want to work are being prevented.
This is ignorant. We have tied continued existence to money by comodifying human needs. Until that changes this will always be an issue.
Its not that people "won't just do their jobs" its that our system encourage theft because our entire system revolves around theft.
If we had actually made a society where human need was taken seriously and inequity wasn't so rampant and rewarded this wouldn't be near as big of an issue as it is.
very true. the universe controls all extremes its the only universal law
@@no-ic5gwyes
@@TheMightyWalk Let us beware of thinking that the world is a living being. Where should it expand? On what should it feed? How could it grow and multiply? We have some notion of the nature of the organic; and we should not reinterpret the exceedingly derivative, late, rare, accidental, that we perceive only on the crust of the earth and make of it something essential, universal, and eternal, which is what those people do who call the universe an organism. This nauseates me. Let us even beware of believing that the universe is a machine: it is certainly not constructed for one purpose, and calling it a 'machine' does it far too much honor. Let us beware of positing generally and everywhere anything as elegant as the cyclical movements of our neighboring stars; even a glance into the Milky Way raises doubts whether there are not far coarser and more contradictory movements there, as well as stars with eternally linear paths, etc. The astral order in which we live is an exception; this order and the relative duration that depends on it have again made possible an exception of exceptions: the formation of the organic. The total character of the world, however, is in all eternity chaos-in the sense not of a lack of necessity but of a lack of order, arrangement, form, beauty, wisdom, and whatever other names there are for our aesthetic anthropomorphisms. Judged from the point of view of our reason, unsuccessful attempts are by all odds the rule, the exceptions are not the secret aim, and the whole musical box repeats eternally its tune which may never be called a melody-and ultimately even the phrase 'unsuccessful attempt' is too anthropomorphic and reproachful. But how could we reproach or praise the universe? Let us beware of attributing to it heartlessness and unreason or their opposites: it is neither perfect nor beautiful, nor noble, nor does it wish to become any of these things; it does not by any means strive to imitate man. None of our aesthetic and moral judgments apply to it. Nor does it have any instinct for self-preservation or any other instinct; and it does not observe any laws either. Let us beware of saying that there are laws in nature. There are only necessities: there is nobody who commands, nobody who obeys, nobody who trespasses. Once you know that there are no purposes, you also know that there is no accident; for it is only beside a world of purposes that the word 'accident' has meaning. Let us beware of saying that death is opposed to life. The living is merely a type of what is dead, and a very rare type. Let us beware of thinking that the world eternally creates new things. There are no eternally enduring substances; matter is as much of an error as the God of the Eleatics. But when shall we ever be done with our caution and care? When will all these shadows of God cease to darken our minds? When will we complete our de-deification of nature? When may we begin to 'naturalize' humanity in terms of a pure, newly discovered, newly redeemed nature.