Also... If you're doing a turbo conversion on a standard naturally aspirated engine with really high compression ratio (anywhere from 10:1 to 13:1) then the added "boost" from the turbo has a much higher chance of causing detonation and/or "knock" even at low psi... Adding a meth injection system will help you to increase boost while avoiding detonation and knock.
I just installed a cold air intake. I think it's going to give me about 500 horsepower extra. It weighs about 4 pounds less than my stock intake so that should take off about 3 seconds on my quarter mile time
Well , not a custom tune, but simply a tune or piggyback will give good results. Most of the ' tune in can' are rated for 93-98 octane. But no way you would always get good quality gas at the station. Those kit will help to keep the same performance all the time.
I think almost any tuned forced induction car is going to see a benefit. WMI is popular in the NW VW/Audi scene and I recently saw a guy with a stage 2 tune on his golf R that did not do any additional tuning for WMI make 30 All wheel HP on a dyno more by adding WMI. I plan to see what sort of power mine does as well.
Totally wrong!!!! Any turbo car without a custom tune will definitively gain power having W/M injection kit installed. Same boost pressure with colder air means more air into the cylinder. More air along with more fuel (from methanol) means more power. Not only that, if meth injected before IAT sensor, the ecu will correct the timing advance for the colder air taking full advantage of it.
All I did was arm the system and spray during dyno pulls and the first time it made over 50whp more. Then when I tuned for it, it ended up somewhere around 250whp off the alky injection system alone.
I have a C6Z w/ Novi 1500 and alki controls and it does keep timing from retarding and keeps the IAT’s colder. It definitely makes more power by itself. Also long term fuel trims may change with consistent use during closed loop.
Why would anyone buy this and not tune? Such a negative video! Sure give the positives and negatives, but be clear that if you set your car up for this! It does exactly what it’s supposed too!
If you get wheel chirps in the early cool mornings and your car feels extra responsive, then your car will mostly likely benefit from meth injection. If you dont know what Im talking about then dont waist your money on meth injection.
The info you just gave on your video is pretty much the complete opposite of all the information i have gathered while researching water/menthanol injection set ups. I'm not saying you are wrong, but i think you are giving info to a specific demographic. I have a 1990 volvo 240 that i turbo charged about a year ago. It runs good with minor modifications but i cant really push over 7psi of boost without leaning out my car. So in my instance methanol injection is an imediate performance gain even if i choose to stay at 7psi of boost. My intake air temps would be lower and i would have greater knock resistance. Now if we are taking about a more modern vehicle, then tuning is nessesary because the computer would probably accomidate for the richness that meth would create. And would probably throw it into limp mode and throw a check engine light simultaniously. Or just not give any benefit because where is the upgrade if you arent pushing more air to accomidate the extra fuel? And in a naturally aspirated car it probably doesnt really do much besides change intake air temps a little. Thats my 2 cents.
Thanks for the feedback. You bring up a good point, I probably could have been a bit clearer but the info is still correct, even in your situation. "Unless you're tuning for it, or your build already has a need for it" - Your build already has a need for meth, so you would see benefits from it.
Master Chief 00117 youre almost right. When you inject methenol it increases your knock resistance because it cools and supplys more fuel. So basically water/methenol is a fuel, so your ecu wont actually add more fuel. It will sense that the mixure it very rich and it will add less fuel.
@Master Chief 00117 I'm not so sure you understand how ECU's work. The ECU has fuel trims, this is correct. The point of the fuel trims is to add or remove fuel to meet the expected stoichiometric value and it does this based on the inputs from the O2 sensors. However, the fuel trims only go so far and dumping even a 20% mix into the system will cause the AFRs to run rich and no, the ECU will not compensate for that because it would cause the fuel trims to go so far out of range that it gives up. How it "gives up" depends on the manufacturer. Sometimes it does nothing, sometimes it'll throw a code. In my experience, it mostly just quietly gives up. As far as the rpm and timing advance, the ECU is not going to give you any additional timing. It;s set at the factory. It isn't just magically going to add timing. It will certainly remove timing, and it will add the timing back in (what it removed), but it has no idea that you just injected meth, so now it can advance timing. What exactly do you think it would base that decision on? What sensors? Adding more fuel to the cylinders will cause richer AFRs and the ECU will compensate for it to a certain degree. Let's say that it was able to fully compensate for it. Where exactly does the power come from? Since in this example the ECU has fully compensated for the AFRs, you're back to the pre-configured AFR. Not leaner, not richer, so what have you gained? Knock resistance? Ok, maybe, but please explain where the power comes from in doing that? If you're going to compare it to running 87 octane vs 93 octane, then you're showing your lack of understanding. The ECU uses knock sensors for a lot of reasons, but one is to make it safe to run 87 octane, and it does this by reducing timing advance (and sometimes adding fuel). There is no "gaining power" by switching to 93 octane, you're just letting the ECU run at it's pre-set settings without any reduction of performance. You wouldn't see a gain going from 93 to 110 octane. The engine doesn't increase RPM as a direct result of spraying water (or meth) into it and in fact, the engine will stumble if anything. And again, the decrease in air temperature will not result in any additional gains unless the air is already so hot that the ECU has already compensated in which case you're not gaining, you're just putting a band-aid on your mistake. And yes, I've done quite a lot of testing, both on my NA and turbo cars. I am well aware of what it does and does not do. I've spent countless hours data logging, street and dyno testing and talking with well respected tuners.
I never said a factory ECU did. I said they will still pickup the change in density and cooler temperature air! As it will change the timing and fuel ratio.. You start shoving 20 lbs of boost through it. You need a stand alone solution... Thank You
Master Chief 00117 You specifically said "today’s modern car".... meaning a factory ECM and factory boost pressure..... you just totally changed your opinion because you JUST GOT OWNED! Your second comment entirely contradicts your first..... thank you
If your car has 12:1 compression and you are in the west coast with only 91 available, meth will have the same and better results than e85. If it's turned for it! IAT's will be much cooler than e85 and octane will be dependent on how much meth is sprayed. It is 117 octane. If 30% of your fuel is from meth, 91 turnes into ~99 octane with tuning/detonation surpression similar to 105 octane fuel. Generally, IAT's, if meth is sprayed after the intercooler, will be about 30-40 deg F cooler than ambient. Have your tuner tune for the timimg to be pulled if temps rise above certain thresholds. Relocate the IAT sensor from the MAF to post meth injection for an optimal fail safe. Or listen to the chicken chits. Cleans the cylinder too. Will require the spark plugs being changed every 1-2K miles. Copper plugs are $2 a piece.
@@mikewoda319 He may be on to something. Many modern cars will push the timing a little bit when you fuel up and try to max out timing for whatever you have in the tank. My cruze LS 1.8 has low and high octane maps and an AEM kit on it as well and when I ran water injection on the stock tune it allowed the car to use the 93 high octane map running 87 in the tank due to the knock suppression of the water injection system. It may be that he was running in a knock limited part of the maps and water injection allowed the stock tune to take full advantage of the available timing
My car loves 95 octane stock tune. I get much better throttle response and torque. At 93 octane there's abit of ping especially on hot days. So in a way I think it would benefit if installed with correct settings to give me 95 octane.
Not true, I’ve added a diy water injection and believe me it works very well especially when you use ammonia or isopropanol, ethanol or methanol is also fine.
Some really hi-tech info on water/methanol injection can be found on TH-cam channel 'PowerTec 10, episode 95'. Much of what is being said here is backed up there by an extensive turbo engine development program funded by Chrysler.
I love the honesty and you told me what I know and some! Do you think a newer 2016 5.0 with exhaust and cold air intake plus a good tune would benefit from this? I see some n/a guys run e85 on them I know it's different but similar. Should I expect loss of power? Any opinions?
I run a built vq35de NA. I use WMI and have "street tuned" for it. I can't give you an answer on how much power gain you will get but it is noticable. I am running around 12:1 compression with AFR around 12.7:1 with fat sports (between gears) at 11.2:1(can use a little work). Intake air temp drop is nice on hot days. I also have WMI on my boosted car, boost temps dropped a lot, timing advance is much higher. So basically what I am saying is I have experience with WMI on boosted and na setups. Both of them see gains when tuned. For your application however I would just go e85. Much more reliable. Don't get me wrong I like WMI but it's just another thing that can go bad and something else to maintain.
Im the outlier I guess... supercharged 3rz Tacoma's 8psi pulley upgraded fuel pump stock ecu. Im running aem water meth, and was able to run hotter spark plugs, gained about 1.5 pounds of boost, and it helped fill in the gap where the computer fell on its face. Butt dyno showed a massive gain resulting in giggles, and weeees!
Most people don’t tune so there engine doesn’t rely on the meth in the case you run out or empty you res you can still drive without your meth, also most high end kits you can set up yourself so there no need to tune dependent for it
Could you please tell me your opinion? I have a ECU tuned SL63 AMG R231 with air filter and sparkle plugs. Do you think adding water methanol system can increase my HP or any benefit for me at all? My tuner told me if you add that it makes like your car is running on race gas all the time and provides amazing cooling benefits. Is it true ?
I'm not familiar with how far AMG takes their tuning, so I cannot say yes or no that water/meth will give you more gains. I would recommend talking with your tuner and ask their recommendation. If you wanted to just use it for consistency (keep heat soak in check because you run it hard at the track) then you just need a tuner to compensate for it. Meth does have a high octane, but that's at 100% concentration and when sprayed into the intake, it's only a small percentage of the total fuel going into the cylinder so you're only increasing octane by a few points. But, it does in general provide increased octane, but nothing like race gas. If you ran methanol in your gas tank as your primary fuel, then that would be a different story.
im currently running a non intercooled vortech v3 super charger and would like to install a snow kit mainly for cooling if i get tuned for it then for some reason am forced to run without it would this hurt the engine? at the moment my tune has a shorta digital cooling fail safe when iat reach 150 the tune begins to pull timing to reduce the possibility of knock
What about just water injection on a standard car by tricking computer ecu just clean high mileage car just to make it last longer but a fine mist only on full throttle?
Seems adding meth ìnjection when not needed is similar to using premium fuel when not needed, just 2 different ways of slowing the combustion process and giving no gain in power unless adjustments are made to increase timing, compression, and/or increase boost prior to the onset of detonation. Beware though as a youtube video with dyno results found that a methanol mix once comprising over 50% water actually decreased horsepower.
Im sure its possible, howver E85 and other ethanol containing fuels already burn slower and cooler then regular pump gas. Im not certian, but intuition tells me it would run worse unless tuned for it. The nessecity of methanol when running E85 is questionable, Because E85 runs cooler it has some knock resistance.
Wow... you must live in some different world or you have very little experience with methanol. In just about any boosted application methanol injection will always help. Computers today are very good at monitoring things happening in your motor. With turbo or supercharger, they will both create heat. Just about every newer computer will slowly claw back on power as IAT's rise. It will do the same for octane of the fuel being used. If you inject water, it will help keep the PCM from reducing power due to IATs being FAR lower, and methanol will ensure that PCM is happy about octane being used. This will result in PCM giving you all the timing it can by the map and in some applications it won't bleed off boost. If you have a turbo or supercharged car, get methanol and start real small. When you inject too much, you will feel it. Also take your car on the dyno and get the proper tune done.
Cooler intake charge will lower EGTs so unless you're spraying more meth than water, you will likely LOWER your EGTs. If you're having EGT issues, it's more likely you're pushing the turbo past it's efficiency point, which is case in most SRT-4s. I had 2 NSRT-4s and 1 CSRT-4, all ran best times ON meth because it benefited GREATLY from it. But now I have a 335i and an Audi S5 and will install meth on both. 335i has a perfect setup for methanol injection with JB4 controlling it fully. However, S5 will have NO tune for meth. I will be spraying it because it will greatly reduce HEAT produced by the supercharger. So every subsequent pull will reduce power output because IATs will climb thru the roof. Spraying Water/meth will ensure that the computer doesn't rob power because of the heat.
Tell you what, you put that audi on the dyno and do before/after runs with and without WMI (no tuning) and if you don't lose power, I'll pay for your dyno session (up to $100). When all else is equal, yes, lower IATs can result in lower EGTs, but that's when it's properly setup and tuned. When you introduce a cooling mechanic like water, it slows the combustion process which is effectively the same as retarding timing. Retarding timing causes the combustion process to happen later, which means the combustion process is less complete when the exhaust valves are opening. It's basic tuning principals, retarding timing increases EGTs while advancing timing lower EGTs. Now, based on how large the engine is and the volume of liquid being injected, this can be anywhere from minimal to detrimental. You're debating benefits while the point of the video is that tuning is required to see gains from WMI. Even if you don't lose power untuned, you still won't see gains from keeping IATs lower. It isn't nitrous, so tuning is still required to see gains which, again, is the point of the video. Keeping IAT's in check can provide consistency of runs, but it comes at a cost unless it's properly setup and tuned for.
Um, isn't this your setup? You specifically listed TCU & ECU "software" with a map for 93 octane (91 octane and WMI)? What exactly do you think tuning is? What do you think a map is? It's a tune specific to the type of fuel you're going to be running. Nice build, btw. th-cam.com/video/xaoOky4AtP4/w-d-xo.html 2013 Volkswagen GTI -APR Stage 3 GTX2867r -APR TCU & ECU Software -APR Intercooler -APR Carbon Fiber Intake -APR Catless Downpipe -APR RSC Catback Tires -Firehawk Indy 500 93 Octane Map (91 Octane Fuel W/ Water Methanol Injection)
If you're suggesting that you didn't specifically get tuned for WMI, then, as I stated in the video, your build had a need for it which is because you're running 91 octane on a 93 octane map and needed the meth to compensate.
3point8 Garage my 2016 Mustang GT picked up power without being tuned for it. How do I know. The car was tuned with 91 in the tank and water meth turned off. After the car was tuned and a dyno pull done it made 565rwhp. Then the meth was turned on and it made 585rwhp.
itll give you zero when your engine pops. an atomizing water nozzle isn't the best way to inject a fuel accurately. run distilled water and crank up the boost and timing more, safely, and make more power reliably. but everyone wants to be a professional youtuber these days.
Which part says the opposite of what you've seen? Meth makes no power unless it's tuned for. Plain and simple. Anyone who says otherwise is either mistaken, or has issues (resulting in loss of power) that require water/meth to fix.
3point8 Garage damm i guess my f10 that was dyno with meth injection without no tune is lying then... also the power difference i feel is all in my head...
Christian Glen Castillo absolutely, you could even advance timing and add more boost (with a tune I recommend)and be more reliable and more protected from detonation than you were before.
It's best to put it 6-8 inches in front of the iat sensor, but that's not always possible. Some people use a throttle body spacer with an npt port and others use spray plates. If you're turbo with an electronic throttle body, then spraying after the throttle body is best to prevent damage to the throttle body.
You want to tune your car on EVERY UPGRADE excluding air filter... Exhaust? More air flow, car needs to know to get true potential. You know nothing behind the physics of a car guy.
I have no clue where you think N/A can not make use of Water\Meth injection. They used it 70 years ago. As they designed manual adjustable timing system. That fit inside your vehicle to control the timing! I had one in early 1981 and it worked great. As 108 octane fuel cost $5.00 a gallon in 1981. So we learned how to make more power to save money. All this before you could buy an ECM to do it all for you or Throttle Bodies. Tune port injection etc... Not to mention. Water injection alone produces 15% hydrogen and 85% oxygen at 1600%+ expansion rate. When the water changes from a liquid to vapor in the cylinder. As the engine can now pack more fuel and oxygen in the same volume. Giving the density of the fuel charge! So I don't think you have a clue about the subject or the internal combustion engine. Maybe take a course in chemistry and physics. As the geeks rule the race car industry today and they pay them shit loads to make more power. In ever smaller engine displacement. Good Luck
Manual adjustable timing systems...you mean a distributor? I'm not sure where you think I said NA can't make use of meth. I said putting a kit on a stock or even a FBO car is pointless and will NOT make any power without first tuning for it (yes, you MUST tune for it!) OR, your build already has a need for it. I never said an NA setup can't make use of it. I am aware of the efforts of manufacturers to use WMI in production cars. BMW has used it previously and recently used it in a few of their M series cars. And no, the cooler air temps will not improve anything unless the air temps are extremely high already, in which case you should seriously re-evaluate your intake system.
With regard to the timing system, I know what you're talking about. I've seen them, but never personally worked with one. But, as for the rest, you're telling me, that the molecules will split inside of the combustion chamber and that will allow us to use the added oxygen and hydrogen to make gains?
I'm not here to give you a lesson in the internal combustion engine. Bu let me explain it. It's nothing but a huge air pump. Air, Fuel, Spark and Compression. Wallah you make power. The denser the air mixture is. The more fuel you can add to that same volume of space. As only 20-25% of the fuel actually makes power. The rest is lost as heat. This is why Turbos can make use of that left over energy. The down side. It gets hot from all that left over heat to drive it. As the gas expands. This is why water\meth injection was used 80 years ago. It lowers the heat transfer of that same energy to a manageable range. Just like an AC compressor\condenser...The water acts as a transfer agent at combustion. A byproduct being hydrogen gas. www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae367.cfm Wallah.. Power! Other byproducts of water\meth is cooler running engine. Less carbon build up on the piston\valves. Lower emissions from a cleaner burn. Cleaner intake runners< NA really makes use of that one. As it prevents the fuel from pooling on the edges of the intake runners. As air is almost super sonic inside an intake. In some engines. It does reach super sonic levels. Why you get resonator effects www.abcm.org.br/anais/cobem/2013/PDF/852.pdf So yep. This is where math will make you money on race day. Trust me. I built engines for over 45 years. And no matter what you put on one. It's still just a huge ass air pump. That makes power. Class dismissed...
You are just flat out wrong about the water. Please show me testing where you can spray water (or even water and meth) and add more fuel, and result in making power. On an NA setup, you absolutely will not. Too rich and no way to get more air. On a FI car, it will require increasing the boost (or different turbo setup for more cfm). You're making it sound like water can be used like nitrous. It doesn't release the oxygen/hydrogen into the combustion chamber in a way that makes it usable. The water turns to steam, that's it. The molecules do not separate. Water will slow down the combustion process which is effectively like retarding the timing and I'm sure you know what that results in...lost power. It is possible to make power with water injection alone, but it requires tuning and tuning for water only is not the same as tuning for water/meth. Not only that, even with tuning, you aren't guaranteed to see any power gains with water/meth. I just tuned an NA car and a turbo car, both running 50/50 wmi. 0 gains on the NA car and a few hp on the turbo car. Please be careful not to read this as WMI will never give you any gains, because that's obviously not the case and has been proven otherwise. My point is, it's not guaranteed like everyone thinks. The benefits from lowering the air temps is not power, but consistency, safety and longevity. Any power gains from lowering the air temps would quickly be negated by the added weight of the meth tank. Sure, cleaning is a benefit, but it takes a long time to clean valves and even longer to clean pistons. Adding a kit to a new car, or a setup with clean valves/pistons can keep them clean. I'm not trying to be rude, but just because you bolted together some engine parts doesn't mean you understand how they work or how to make them work better. You're just propagating the misinformation that is rampant and the reason I started the channel. I only put out information that I have personally tested myself. I don't regurgitate what's found out on the internet or make up theories.
Because you're ignorant on how an engine makes power. This is how I know you're just making shit up. As any public schooled short bus rider. Knows what happens when the air gets thinner. And when it is more dense from just altitude changes.... So please take a course in the internal combustion engine. Molecular Engineering and Physics. That is all I got to say on the subject. As I charge people to make their engine make more power. It's not free or I go broke! Thank You.
wrong clean fuel system cats everything but i dont inject i started with a bong pcv catchcan now altra sonic mist with -20 windshield washer fluid 2 bucks a gal.ya its not what your talking about but your vid says nothing ive seen it 20 times and had to say my piece
So, you actually didn't say anything and you took 4 minutes and 49 seconds to do it. Thanks a lot.
Right worse video ive seen lol i glad i wasnt trying to learn from this 🤦🏽♂️ lol
helpful comments. 😂😂😂
He did say it doesn't give added power AND why that is.... rewatch around the 50 second mark in the video.
He said no power gains
Were you picking your nose for the entire video? 🤣
Meth will give you all the power you need to stay up for 3 days straight 😂
nick h 😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂✌️
Only 2 more sleeps til Xmas😂
Also... If you're doing a turbo conversion on a standard naturally aspirated engine with really high compression ratio (anywhere from 10:1 to 13:1) then the added "boost" from the turbo has a much higher chance of causing detonation and/or "knock" even at low psi... Adding a meth injection system will help you to increase boost while avoiding detonation and knock.
I just installed a cold air intake. I think it's going to give me about 500 horsepower extra. It weighs about 4 pounds less than my stock intake so that should take off about 3 seconds on my quarter mile time
🐂💩
Quit sand bagging us. It will definitely teleport from 60-130mph in -3.4 seconds.
Well this was discouraging lol
So I still don’t know if it’s worth installing on my NA car with minor mods to deal with the hot, humid days. Thanks.
Well , not a custom tune, but simply a tune or piggyback will give good results. Most of the ' tune in can' are rated for 93-98 octane. But no way you would always get good quality gas at the station. Those kit will help to keep the same performance all the time.
I'm gonna run a meth kit for my turbo and get a personalized licence plate that says METHHED
My car is FBO, tuned, and supercharged. Not tuned for meth injection but it made a difference.
I think almost any tuned forced induction car is going to see a benefit. WMI is popular in the NW VW/Audi scene and I recently saw a guy with a stage 2 tune on his golf R that did not do any additional tuning for WMI make 30 All wheel HP on a dyno more by adding WMI. I plan to see what sort of power mine does as well.
im shootin for 1,000,000 hp
yaaaaaaaas!! :)
Get a ship engine and cover it in superchargers
Me too
Totally wrong!!!! Any turbo car without a custom tune will definitively gain power having W/M injection kit installed. Same boost pressure with colder air means more air into the cylinder. More air along with more fuel (from methanol) means more power. Not only that, if meth injected before IAT sensor, the ecu will correct the timing advance for the colder air taking full advantage of it.
All I did was arm the system and spray during dyno pulls and the first time it made over 50whp more. Then when I tuned for it, it ended up somewhere around 250whp off the alky injection system alone.
I have a C6Z w/ Novi 1500 and alki controls and it does keep timing from retarding and keeps the IAT’s colder. It definitely makes more power by itself. Also long term fuel trims may change with consistent use during closed loop.
Was wondering about HEET and how it could boost HP. Looks like you would have to boost the fuel too.
Why would anyone buy this and not tune? Such a negative video! Sure give the positives and negatives, but be clear that if you set your car up for this! It does exactly what it’s supposed too!
most modern ecu's already advance timing based on intake temps, so a tune would give negligible gains on a daily setup.
Yeah if your running a naturally aspirated vehicle snow performance makes a maf kit that requires no tuning. It runs off the ecu and air intake temps.
If you get wheel chirps in the early cool mornings and your car feels extra responsive, then your car will mostly likely benefit from meth injection. If you dont know what Im talking about then dont waist your money on meth injection.
This guy is in the dark I have seen 50 to 70 rwhp gains with a good tune!!
Yeah that's with a tune and advanced timing but the kit itself will not give you any HP
The kit will give you HP, just not a large amount without tuning for it.
I'll be tuning this weekend on straight Methanol injection. I'll let you know what the gains are.
Shoutout to 3point8 for being straight up and telling people not to waste their money if they don’t need it, that’s why I like these guys
The info you just gave on your video is pretty much the complete opposite of all the information i have gathered while researching water/menthanol injection set ups. I'm not saying you are wrong, but i think you are giving info to a specific demographic. I have a 1990 volvo 240 that i turbo charged about a year ago. It runs good with minor modifications but i cant really push over 7psi of boost without leaning out my car. So in my instance methanol injection is an imediate performance gain even if i choose to stay at 7psi of boost. My intake air temps would be lower and i would have greater knock resistance. Now if we are taking about a more modern vehicle, then tuning is nessesary because the computer would probably accomidate for the richness that meth would create. And would probably throw it into limp mode and throw a check engine light simultaniously. Or just not give any benefit because where is the upgrade if you arent pushing more air to accomidate the extra fuel? And in a naturally aspirated car it probably doesnt really do much besides change intake air temps a little. Thats my 2 cents.
Thanks for the feedback. You bring up a good point, I probably could have been a bit clearer but the info is still correct, even in your situation. "Unless you're tuning for it, or your build already has a need for it" - Your build already has a need for meth, so you would see benefits from it.
Master Chief 00117 youre almost right. When you inject methenol it increases your knock resistance because it cools and supplys more fuel. So basically water/methenol is a fuel, so your ecu wont actually add more fuel. It will sense that the mixure it very rich and it will add less fuel.
@Master Chief 00117 I'm not so sure you understand how ECU's work. The ECU has fuel trims, this is correct. The point of the fuel trims is to add or remove fuel to meet the expected stoichiometric value and it does this based on the inputs from the O2 sensors. However, the fuel trims only go so far and dumping even a 20% mix into the system will cause the AFRs to run rich and no, the ECU will not compensate for that because it would cause the fuel trims to go so far out of range that it gives up. How it "gives up" depends on the manufacturer. Sometimes it does nothing, sometimes it'll throw a code. In my experience, it mostly just quietly gives up.
As far as the rpm and timing advance, the ECU is not going to give you any additional timing. It;s set at the factory. It isn't just magically going to add timing. It will certainly remove timing, and it will add the timing back in (what it removed), but it has no idea that you just injected meth, so now it can advance timing. What exactly do you think it would base that decision on? What sensors?
Adding more fuel to the cylinders will cause richer AFRs and the ECU will compensate for it to a certain degree. Let's say that it was able to fully compensate for it. Where exactly does the power come from? Since in this example the ECU has fully compensated for the AFRs, you're back to the pre-configured AFR. Not leaner, not richer, so what have you gained? Knock resistance? Ok, maybe, but please explain where the power comes from in doing that? If you're going to compare it to running 87 octane vs 93 octane, then you're showing your lack of understanding. The ECU uses knock sensors for a lot of reasons, but one is to make it safe to run 87 octane, and it does this by reducing timing advance (and sometimes adding fuel). There is no "gaining power" by switching to 93 octane, you're just letting the ECU run at it's pre-set settings without any reduction of performance. You wouldn't see a gain going from 93 to 110 octane.
The engine doesn't increase RPM as a direct result of spraying water (or meth) into it and in fact, the engine will stumble if anything. And again, the decrease in air temperature will not result in any additional gains unless the air is already so hot that the ECU has already compensated in which case you're not gaining, you're just putting a band-aid on your mistake.
And yes, I've done quite a lot of testing, both on my NA and turbo cars. I am well aware of what it does and does not do. I've spent countless hours data logging, street and dyno testing and talking with well respected tuners.
I never said a factory ECU did. I said they will still pickup the change in density and cooler temperature air! As it will change the timing and fuel ratio.. You start shoving 20 lbs of boost through it. You need a stand alone solution...
Thank You
Master Chief 00117 You specifically said "today’s modern car".... meaning a factory ECM and factory boost pressure..... you just totally changed your opinion because you JUST GOT OWNED! Your second comment entirely contradicts your first..... thank you
If your car has 12:1 compression and you are in the west coast with only 91 available, meth will have the same and better results than e85. If it's turned for it! IAT's will be much cooler than e85 and octane will be dependent on how much meth is sprayed. It is 117 octane. If 30% of your fuel is from meth, 91 turnes into ~99 octane with tuning/detonation surpression similar to 105 octane fuel. Generally, IAT's, if meth is sprayed after the intercooler, will be about 30-40 deg F cooler than ambient. Have your tuner tune for the timimg to be pulled if temps rise above certain thresholds. Relocate the IAT sensor from the MAF to post meth injection for an optimal fail safe. Or listen to the chicken chits. Cleans the cylinder too. Will require the spark plugs being changed every 1-2K miles. Copper plugs are $2 a piece.
Just did some dyno time and my 50/50 mix did not reduce power. This is on a 1.4 multiair
i have a 2013 bmw 535i and i currently have snow performance wmi without a tune and i have notice strong gains on my car...
tortatorres without a tune is why
Post proof. Anyone can run their gums!!!
@@mikewoda319 He may be on to something. Many modern cars will push the timing a little bit when you fuel up and try to max out timing for whatever you have in the tank. My cruze LS 1.8 has low and high octane maps and an AEM kit on it as well and when I ran water injection on the stock tune it allowed the car to use the 93 high octane map running 87 in the tank due to the knock suppression of the water injection system. It may be that he was running in a knock limited part of the maps and water injection allowed the stock tune to take full advantage of the available timing
My car loves 95 octane stock tune. I get much better throttle response and torque. At 93 octane there's abit of ping especially on hot days. So in a way I think it would benefit if installed with correct settings to give me 95 octane.
Not true, I’ve added a diy water injection and believe me it works very well especially when you use ammonia or isopropanol, ethanol or methanol is also fine.
Some really hi-tech info on water/methanol injection can be found on TH-cam channel 'PowerTec 10, episode 95'. Much of what is being said here is backed up there by an extensive turbo engine development program funded by Chrysler.
I love the honesty and you told me what I know and some! Do you think a newer 2016 5.0 with exhaust and cold air intake plus a good tune would benefit from this? I see some n/a guys run e85 on them I know it's different but similar. Should I expect loss of power? Any opinions?
I run a built vq35de NA. I use WMI and have "street tuned" for it. I can't give you an answer on how much power gain you will get but it is noticable. I am running around 12:1 compression with AFR around 12.7:1 with fat sports (between gears) at 11.2:1(can use a little work).
Intake air temp drop is nice on hot days.
I also have WMI on my boosted car, boost temps dropped a lot, timing advance is much higher.
So basically what I am saying is I have experience with WMI on boosted and na setups. Both of them see gains when tuned. For your application however I would just go e85. Much more reliable.
Don't get me wrong I like WMI but it's just another thing that can go bad and something else to maintain.
“0 to a million horsepower.” Yeah what the hell are you talking about
Im the outlier I guess... supercharged 3rz Tacoma's 8psi pulley upgraded fuel pump stock ecu. Im running aem water meth, and was able to run hotter spark plugs, gained about 1.5 pounds of boost, and it helped fill in the gap where the computer fell on its face. Butt dyno showed a massive gain resulting in giggles, and weeees!
Not an outlier, your setup had a need for it.
So are you saying get an intercooler, but don't expect more than 5-10 horsepower from all that effort?
Can I use flatshift+fuelcut using meth injection ?? Meth will still be on during shift because its boost activated ???
Most people don’t tune so there engine doesn’t rely on the meth in the case you run out or empty you res you can still drive without your meth, also most high end kits you can set up yourself so there no need to tune dependent for it
im getting one now and was able to get a custom tune from jb4 for my b9 audi
So would this work on a N/A vehicle with a canned tune
Just wasted 4 minutes...
Could you please tell me your opinion? I have a ECU tuned SL63 AMG R231 with air filter and sparkle plugs. Do you think adding water methanol system can increase my HP or any benefit for me at all? My tuner told me if you add that it makes like your car is running on race gas all the time and provides amazing cooling benefits. Is it true ?
I'm not familiar with how far AMG takes their tuning, so I cannot say yes or no that water/meth will give you more gains. I would recommend talking with your tuner and ask their recommendation. If you wanted to just use it for consistency (keep heat soak in check because you run it hard at the track) then you just need a tuner to compensate for it.
Meth does have a high octane, but that's at 100% concentration and when sprayed into the intake, it's only a small percentage of the total fuel going into the cylinder so you're only increasing octane by a few points. But, it does in general provide increased octane, but nothing like race gas. If you ran methanol in your gas tank as your primary fuel, then that would be a different story.
your tuner wants your money. get an ebay turbo.
im currently running a non intercooled vortech v3 super charger and would like to install a snow kit mainly for cooling if i get tuned for it then for some reason am forced to run without it would this hurt the engine? at the moment my tune has a shorta digital cooling fail safe when iat reach 150 the tune begins to pull timing to reduce the possibility of knock
Can you use methylated spirits instead?
My diesel egt's dropped about 200 degrees when towing heavy, but I go heavier on the water.
Would that help a 350z NA with in Texas heat? Just tryna get as much gains even if it’s 25whp
Hey i like ur vidoe man can u do a video on how to wire the boost safe ? On aem meth kit
how come i gained 29HP on my rocco without programming it ?
1.4 rocco? Stock or tuned?
@@kylodean4424 its stage 2 but ive heard already that u gain mostly by already tuned cars
Salut ,de unde se poate comanda Water methanol la acest bidon? Multumesc
You could get 50+ hp If you paint the meth tank red.
What about just water injection on a standard car by tricking computer ecu just clean high mileage car just to make it last longer but a fine mist only on full throttle?
Seems adding meth ìnjection when not needed is similar to using premium fuel when not needed, just 2 different ways of slowing the combustion process and giving no gain in power unless adjustments are made to increase timing, compression, and/or increase boost prior to the onset of detonation. Beware though as a youtube video with dyno results found that a methanol mix once comprising over 50% water actually decreased horsepower.
Great video, all so true.
Wonder if u can run E85 with meth? Is that good for power gain?
Im sure its possible, howver E85 and other ethanol containing fuels already burn slower and cooler then regular pump gas. Im not certian, but intuition tells me it would run worse unless tuned for it. The nessecity of methanol when running E85 is questionable, Because E85 runs cooler it has some knock resistance.
Would it make any difference for a NA engine 4800cc with a tuning? The temp in summer in Dubai reach around 122F and the car performance goes weak.
for ambient temps that high, it would help, yes.
Free power and safety ! no not allowed by Dustin . Pay him 8000 instead and he will give you extra 50hp
Pros and cons of running pure meth vrs water and meth
You should probably stop shortening it to meth injection which sounds like you're slamming methamphetamine
Wow... you must live in some different world or you have very little experience with methanol. In just about any boosted application methanol injection will always help. Computers today are very good at monitoring things happening in your motor. With turbo or supercharger, they will both create heat. Just about every newer computer will slowly claw back on power as IAT's rise. It will do the same for octane of the fuel being used. If you inject water, it will help keep the PCM from reducing power due to IATs being FAR lower, and methanol will ensure that PCM is happy about octane being used. This will result in PCM giving you all the timing it can by the map and in some applications it won't bleed off boost. If you have a turbo or supercharged car, get methanol and start real small. When you inject too much, you will feel it. Also take your car on the dyno and get the proper tune done.
Cooler intake charge will lower EGTs so unless you're spraying more meth than water, you will likely LOWER your EGTs. If you're having EGT issues, it's more likely you're pushing the turbo past it's efficiency point, which is case in most SRT-4s. I had 2 NSRT-4s and 1 CSRT-4, all ran best times ON meth because it benefited GREATLY from it. But now I have a 335i and an Audi S5 and will install meth on both. 335i has a perfect setup for methanol injection with JB4 controlling it fully. However, S5 will have NO tune for meth. I will be spraying it because it will greatly reduce HEAT produced by the supercharger. So every subsequent pull will reduce power output because IATs will climb thru the roof. Spraying Water/meth will ensure that the computer doesn't rob power because of the heat.
Tell you what, you put that audi on the dyno and do before/after runs with and without WMI (no tuning) and if you don't lose power, I'll pay for your dyno session (up to $100).
When all else is equal, yes, lower IATs can result in lower EGTs, but that's when it's properly setup and tuned. When you introduce a cooling mechanic like water, it slows the combustion process which is effectively the same as retarding timing. Retarding timing causes the combustion process to happen later, which means the combustion process is less complete when the exhaust valves are opening. It's basic tuning principals, retarding timing increases EGTs while advancing timing lower EGTs. Now, based on how large the engine is and the volume of liquid being injected, this can be anywhere from minimal to detrimental.
You're debating benefits while the point of the video is that tuning is required to see gains from WMI. Even if you don't lose power untuned, you still won't see gains from keeping IATs lower. It isn't nitrous, so tuning is still required to see gains which, again, is the point of the video. Keeping IAT's in check can provide consistency of runs, but it comes at a cost unless it's properly setup and tuned for.
@@3point8 who won the bet???...
Thank you great info...
You might as well bolt on nitros
Μy bmw m550d with snow performance stage 2 gives me 38 HP with 65/35 METHANOL- WATER
Methamphetamine injection
I shot meth 3 times... and I also shot cocaine a couple times
Dont use this with diésel engines will damage your engine
most builds need a meth tune...
This video is poorly done with lack of knowledge towards WMI. My boosted car made 26whp without custom tuning spraying WMI.
Um, isn't this your setup? You specifically listed TCU & ECU "software" with a map for 93 octane (91 octane and WMI)? What exactly do you think tuning is? What do you think a map is? It's a tune specific to the type of fuel you're going to be running. Nice build, btw.
th-cam.com/video/xaoOky4AtP4/w-d-xo.html
2013 Volkswagen GTI
-APR Stage 3 GTX2867r
-APR TCU & ECU Software
-APR Intercooler
-APR Carbon Fiber Intake
-APR Catless Downpipe
-APR RSC Catback
Tires
-Firehawk Indy 500
93 Octane Map (91 Octane Fuel W/ Water Methanol Injection)
If you're suggesting that you didn't specifically get tuned for WMI, then, as I stated in the video, your build had a need for it which is because you're running 91 octane on a 93 octane map and needed the meth to compensate.
3point8 Garage my 2016 Mustang GT picked up power without being tuned for it. How do I know. The car was tuned with 91 in the tank and water meth turned off. After the car was tuned and a dyno pull done it made 565rwhp. Then the meth was turned on and it made 585rwhp.
itll give you zero when your engine pops. an atomizing water nozzle isn't the best way to inject a fuel accurately. run distilled water and crank up the boost and timing more, safely, and make more power reliably. but everyone wants to be a professional youtuber these days.
water and oil ? nah
How much boost can u run without an inercooler and this setup???????
You seem to say the opposite to the last 30 video's I have just watched............. so they are all wrong ? ? ?
Which part says the opposite of what you've seen? Meth makes no power unless it's tuned for. Plain and simple. Anyone who says otherwise is either mistaken, or has issues (resulting in loss of power) that require water/meth to fix.
Or is the Vendor.
3point8 Garage damm i guess my f10 that was dyno with meth injection without no tune is lying then... also the power difference i feel is all in my head...
You’re an idiot. Meth will make more power without changing anything. It will make loads more power when advancing the timing and a few other things.
Is it okay to install this with turbo 8 psi with stock engine?
Christian Glen Castillo absolutely, you could even advance timing and add more boost (with a tune I recommend)and be more reliable and more protected from detonation than you were before.
Bro, u should be saying this from memory not some script ur reading smh
Were we should locate the nozel
It's best to put it 6-8 inches in front of the iat sensor, but that's not always possible. Some people use a throttle body spacer with an npt port and others use spray plates. If you're turbo with an electronic throttle body, then spraying after the throttle body is best to prevent damage to the throttle body.
You want to tune your car on EVERY UPGRADE excluding air filter... Exhaust? More air flow, car needs to know to get true potential. You know nothing behind the physics of a car guy.
U just made me save money 😂
Nice!
Joel Silva hes wrong this will make more power
Very negative video
I have no clue where you think N/A can not make use of Water\Meth injection. They used it 70 years ago. As they designed manual adjustable timing system. That fit inside your vehicle to control the timing! I had one in early 1981 and it worked great. As 108 octane fuel cost $5.00 a gallon in 1981. So we learned how to make more power to save money. All this before you could buy an ECM to do it all for you or Throttle Bodies. Tune port injection etc...
Not to mention. Water injection alone produces 15% hydrogen and 85% oxygen at 1600%+ expansion rate. When the water changes from a liquid to vapor in the cylinder. As the engine can now pack more fuel and oxygen in the same volume. Giving the density of the fuel charge!
So I don't think you have a clue about the subject or the internal combustion engine. Maybe take a course in chemistry and physics. As the geeks rule the race car industry today and they pay them shit loads to make more power. In ever smaller engine displacement.
Good Luck
Manual adjustable timing systems...you mean a distributor? I'm not sure where you think I said NA can't make use of meth. I said putting a kit on a stock or even a FBO car is pointless and will NOT make any power without first tuning for it (yes, you MUST tune for it!) OR, your build already has a need for it. I never said an NA setup can't make use of it. I am aware of the efforts of manufacturers to use WMI in production cars. BMW has used it previously and recently used it in a few of their M series cars. And no, the cooler air temps will not improve anything unless the air temps are extremely high already, in which case you should seriously re-evaluate your intake system.
With regard to the timing system, I know what you're talking about. I've seen them, but never personally worked with one.
But, as for the rest, you're telling me, that the molecules will split inside of the combustion chamber and that will allow us to use the added oxygen and hydrogen to make gains?
I'm not here to give you a lesson in the internal combustion engine. Bu let me explain it. It's nothing but a huge air pump. Air, Fuel, Spark and Compression. Wallah you make power. The denser the air mixture is. The more fuel you can add to that same volume of space. As only 20-25% of the fuel actually makes power. The rest is lost as heat. This is why Turbos can make use of that left over energy. The down side. It gets hot from all that left over heat to drive it. As the gas expands.
This is why water\meth injection was used 80 years ago. It lowers the heat transfer of that same energy to a manageable range. Just like an AC compressor\condenser...The water acts as a transfer agent at combustion. A byproduct being hydrogen gas. www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae367.cfm Wallah.. Power!
Other byproducts of water\meth is cooler running engine. Less carbon build up on the piston\valves. Lower emissions from a cleaner burn. Cleaner intake runners< NA really makes use of that one. As it prevents the fuel from pooling on the edges of the intake runners. As air is almost super sonic inside an intake. In some engines. It does reach super sonic levels. Why you get resonator effects www.abcm.org.br/anais/cobem/2013/PDF/852.pdf
So yep. This is where math will make you money on race day. Trust me. I built engines for over 45 years. And no matter what you put on one. It's still just a huge ass air pump. That makes power.
Class dismissed...
You are just flat out wrong about the water. Please show me testing where you can spray water (or even water and meth) and add more fuel, and result in making power. On an NA setup, you absolutely will not. Too rich and no way to get more air. On a FI car, it will require increasing the boost (or different turbo setup for more cfm). You're making it sound like water can be used like nitrous. It doesn't release the oxygen/hydrogen into the combustion chamber in a way that makes it usable. The water turns to steam, that's it. The molecules do not separate.
Water will slow down the combustion process which is effectively like retarding the timing and I'm sure you know what that results in...lost power. It is possible to make power with water injection alone, but it requires tuning and tuning for water only is not the same as tuning for water/meth. Not only that, even with tuning, you aren't guaranteed to see any power gains with water/meth. I just tuned an NA car and a turbo car, both running 50/50 wmi. 0 gains on the NA car and a few hp on the turbo car. Please be careful not to read this as WMI will never give you any gains, because that's obviously not the case and has been proven otherwise. My point is, it's not guaranteed like everyone thinks.
The benefits from lowering the air temps is not power, but consistency, safety and longevity. Any power gains from lowering the air temps would quickly be negated by the added weight of the meth tank. Sure, cleaning is a benefit, but it takes a long time to clean valves and even longer to clean pistons. Adding a kit to a new car, or a setup with clean valves/pistons can keep them clean.
I'm not trying to be rude, but just because you bolted together some engine parts doesn't mean you understand how they work or how to make them work better. You're just propagating the misinformation that is rampant and the reason I started the channel. I only put out information that I have personally tested myself. I don't regurgitate what's found out on the internet or make up theories.
Because you're ignorant on how an engine makes power.
This is how I know you're just making shit up. As any public schooled short bus rider. Knows what happens when the air gets thinner. And when it is more dense from just altitude changes....
So please take a course in the internal combustion engine. Molecular Engineering and Physics.
That is all I got to say on the subject. As I charge people to make their engine make more power. It's not free or I go broke! Thank You.
4:29 your welcome
wrong clean fuel system cats everything but i dont inject i started with a bong pcv catchcan now altra sonic mist with -20 windshield washer fluid 2 bucks a gal.ya its not what your talking about but your vid says nothing ive seen it 20 times and had to say my piece
Waste of time...
Wtf
Absolutely no answer worth a shit
You shouldn’t make videos anymore giving wrong info.
lol, just because you don't like the info doesn't make it wrong. I assume you didn't actually watch the whole thing.