The ELP Laser Turntable
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ค. 2024
- In this video, I explain everything you've ever wanted to know about the ELP Laser Turntable and dispel some of the rather amusing myths and misinformation associated with it.
This video has been a labor of love for me for nearly a year and a half. I hope that you enjoy it. If you did, please leave a comment below and say hello.
0:00 Introduction
3:52 History
6:19 How It Works
6:53 Advantages
8:04 Disadvantages
9:20 How to Use It / Features
11:15 Listening Preamble
13:08 King Tut Strut
22:10 Debussy Étude 3, Pour les quartes
23:43 In The Spanish Mode
25:19 Q&A
29:48 Conclusion
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There is an audio dropout in the Jeremy Steig track that I didn't notice until after the video was published. This wasn't because of the turntable or the LP - it was because of the lousy cables I was using to connect the ELP to my DAW. I thought that I'd had it stable but I clearly missed that one dropout. Sorry about that. Also: they sell a version of the ELP that supports 78s. Mine just happens to not support playing back at 78 RPM, but it's an available option.
For those suggesting to play 78's at 45 RPM - my 78 RPM-equipped unit displays an error, when I'm trying to play a coarse-groove record at LP speeds (changing speed adjusts corresponding groove profile). For more info how awesome ELP turntable for 78's is, see my answer to Martin Arnold comment: th-cam.com/video/mE4tO_dIDKA/w-d-xo.html&lc=UgxRQdAEYEFcjCqwwGt4AaABAg
th-cam.com/video/CnGh7FADitg/w-d-xo.html mayby cheaper and better solution for you.
@@KrzysztofKaspruk right, unfortunately it is a prototype, the interesting thing is that they are parts of a paper scanner. the tech juraj Poliak has retired. if this invention comes on the market, there will be a good competitor to elp, and the price will certainly go down. a new era for turntables, seems very nice to be able to experience that.
When you said "There is an audio dropout in the Jeremy Steig track that I didn't notice until after the video was published." I thought it was because of copyright issues!
Since you essentially have to clean the record every time before play, have you considered investing in an automatic, I.E. Ultrasonic, cleaner?
Came for the turntable. Left with the king tut strut. Awesome track.
So glad you liked it! Steig had a bunch of great material in the 70s that's been largely (and sadly) forgotten. My favorite is his "Energy" LP.
@@TheMusicAddict Thanks for taking the time to reply. Exploring "Energy" now. Down Stretch seems to be my favourite track so far.
Wonder how well the ELP can play the Tarkus album.
If you liked this track - try Tequila Mockingbird by Ramsey Lewis - also from the 70's. Very similar vibe, and something I've returned to constantly since then...
Nice tech..never new about this at all
King Tut strut..funky!
Back in the late 60s when I first got interested in hi-fi I realised that the ultimate reduction in stylus tip mass and associated problems would be to use a light beam to extract the groove information. Lasers not being commonly available, not to mention my lack of resources, meant that I never persued the idea, but I always thought that someone would. Thanks for the video, and I hope you continue to get enjoyment from your system for years to come! Great to hear that my idea was sound, if you'll forgive the pun!
A friend got his hands on one of those things. The widow had no idea and thought it was a laser disc player (her husband had one of those too) so she sold it for next to nothing. He used it to convert lots of rare vinyl to flac. First investment after he got his hands on that, was a professional vinyl cleaning machine instead of the cheap one he used before. It was really needed. His unit did not like dust or dirt of any kind. For those records too damaged he used an old EMT 950 turntable.
What make and model cleaner did he buy?
I have for decades wondered if a laser pickup could be used in place of a needle on records. Apparently it can and works great. Glad to have stumbled upon this.
Thanks a lot for watching!
Whenever a cartridge worked optoelectric, one underlined, that it isn't played with light instead Stylus.
So you wonder about something for decades without doing any research?
@@RafiGish nice Toxic reply. I'm not a record player technology enthusiast. Inwas merely expressing that at some point in my life, the idea of optically reading a record ran through my head. Calm down bud.
@@RafiGish Why bother unless you know the kind of coin needed to own one presented no real obstacle. and if you ever heard about one, the report included the price, which was decidedly more notable when the first such players were introduced. .
I would almost consider it even for the outrageous price, especially when you consider a traditional turntable can rocket up in price once you start to upgrade here and there. It's the cleaning every time you want to play an LP that kills it for me. Still I've been waiting for someone to do a video just like yours, nice job.
Thank you very much for watching! And I agree, it was about time that somebody made a video on this thing!
I think if you use mofi sleeves, and the zerostat, that argument becomes null. I often pull out records that I havent played in 2 years and they're pristine
I told my wife once that if I win the lottery, I'll get her one of these. She found the idea cute, but she understands that saying "I'll give you one if I win the lottery" is the same as saying "I'll never give you one".
Having to clean the record every time also negates one of the biggest advantages for this player, namely not making contact with the record
Is there anyone who could ever relax looking at a home copier or printer? Honestly I'm not able to say, certainly not as far as I'm concerned. I can tell you that listening and looking at a Technics SL1000R is quite another thing. The operating principle may have a future with optical reading heads, something very valid already exists… and aesthetically they are very, very beautiful. Your vinyl law is really very bad. Don't hate me.
The important thing for me is the possible expansion and future use to play and archive vintage 78 records. I have been waiting for something like this. If you can calibrate groove depth, width, prifile etc. It would have to be an ideal way to play them, especially seeing as 78s are so variable in the early days. Love to hear thoughts on this !
Since my model doesn't support 78 RPM, I can't speak to it firsthand. But, I know that it's an option available on the ELP and I agree that it would be an optimal way to play and archive these super fragile records.
If you are archiving 78's then maybe possible to play at 45 rpm and process your digital stream to achieve correct speed.
@@Dont_Gnaw_on_the_Kitty Good point of course. I was more thinking that the laser could somehow be calibrated to compensate for the different groove profiles and sizes of vintage records. Currently i have 4 different stylii and its still not enough!
@@playedon78 Could 'maybe' do this as it seems the l/r beams can be aimed at different points of the groove. From what he says there are 28? variable resistor adjustments inside the unit and maybe one of the adjustments is for beam location. Front panel adjustment has 3 groove locations selectable so maybe more inside unit. Only a thought, I could be completely wrong!
@@Dont_Gnaw_on_the_Kitty No, i think you could be right! Thats why i am encouraged by this device!
Very interesting and informative. Way back in the 1970s I realised (and was able to demonstrably prove) that a significant factor in what was then known as “turntable sound” was suppression of vibrations in the record itself, created as a result of the stylus flying around in the groove (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). I always thought laser reading of a vinyl groove would be the obvious solution since there would be no physical contact. Just a shame they’re so expensive !
Plus to my ears, doesnt sound as good as a audiophile deck, even taking yt compression into account.
The "warm" "solid" sound from my L.P.s turned out to be turntable rumble.
@@geraldmartin7703 People who laugh are usually spec sheet checkers that havent heard decent decks)
@@engjds no, audiophiles think that a different sound and more expensive equipment = better.
Human ear are ridiculous.
@@MrSpacelyy Sometimes more money does get you a better sound)
I would like to commend you on your approach to the critics with more of a positive point of view, reporting on your own experiences with honesty, rather than spending time being critical and arrogant. You did a wonderful job explaining everything. More importantly, I thoroughly appreciated one very important aspect of home audio, or audio in general, it doesn't really matter what you have, so long as it makes you happy. If you come home and turn your system on to listen to something and it puts a smile on your face, then NO-ONE can tell you that you made a bad decision.
Thank you so much for the kind words! And I couldn't agree more!
I think Tomorrow’s World on BBC one demonstrated the prototype to this turntable many decades ago. I was listening to the sample tracks on my Bluetooth headphones the music was crystal clear. I was surprised by the lack of background noise normally associated with this format.
I remember the TW demo too, I thought it was so clever and would immediately become a thing. It never became a thing!
A very nice summary of the ELP! I bought my ELP for exactly the same reason you did - I remember reading about the Finial turntable back in 1989 and I thought it was such an engineering achievement that I hoped one day to own one and finally got one back in 2012. As you pointed out, one cannot equate the cost to sound quality of a conventional but equivalently priced mechanical system.
I have answers for your two main faults.
The problems you identify with the weird channel time-shift echo effect is related to the laser alignment and the shoulder position laser servo losing lock - if you shift the laser height adjustment down one notch when it happens, it should recover. From new, mine had tracking issues where it didn't matter what laser height setting I used, it would skip and do the "time shift echo thing" so it was sent back under warranty - the laser alignment was faulty presumably during transportation and they resolved the issue. What you describe can happen with eccentric discs and warped discs. Badly scratched discs will also tend to trip up the shoulder tracking too. If you get the problem consistently then the optical alignment is faulty.
Secondly the HF distortion is also an inherent issue unfortunately - it is basically the equivalent of clipping and related to the optical signal level dynamic range and where they have set the reference level. You will notice it on hot cuts on pop records. However, with jazz records, you shouldn't have any problem except on hot cuts. There is no fix for that unfortunately - it is not related to the EQ/analogue output stage.
The ELP is not an audiophile tool for playing records, it is of value to an archivist or collector with rare records spanning many decades that they wish to preserve but still enjoy listening to or playing potentially damaged discs that could ruin a stylus. I was able to play back a record that was split in two in the post after carefully aligning the pieces!
Thank you so much for this. I am a dyed in the wool audiophile and cut my teeth in the vinyl world and enjoyed a wide range of turntables including Linn, SME, Pink Triangle, Michell etc. Today I am 100% digital and have no interest in vinyl (for me it is a flawed, archaic format). Its great that many people today enjoy it, but oh boy is there a lot of misinformation, misunderstanding and general batshit crazy ignorance around vinyl. But I digress . . Like you I have always been fascinated by the ELP and Finial player before it. I had no idea people vieweed what is an amazing and fascinating technical tour de force with such (ill informed) ignorance - but I guess that's the curse of the internet age! Your video was a delight, it was great to see a really detailed and level-headed look at this device - I've never got to hear one first hand. Thank you for bringing it to life and dispelling some of the hysterically stupid nonsense said about it.
I'm just waiting for people to decide that an optical scan of vinyl is the way to go . The technology has been around for a while, but we get lasers rather than real optical scan of the entire disc. Funamentally, it's not that hard to do, the main issue is to convert the round disc into a linear one without introducing a bunch of distortion. (That and albums had to be mastered to take into consideration that the outer tracks move faster than the ones closer to the center of the disc.
Just wondering, what are your thoughts on Dual? I have a 1246 from the late 70s, and I love it, but I haven’t really had the chance to compare it with anything else high end. How would it compare to say a Technics 1200?
I have never witnessed such blatant flute abuse before! Great vid. Sounded incredible.
I read about a laser turntable in Popular Science/Mechanics in the late 70's or early 80's. Always wanted to hear one! Thanks :)
Honestly, I think this thing sounds REALLY good! Despite the clicks and pops, a lot of the things I LIKE about digital (low noise floor, lack of wow and flutter, low distortion) seem to be present in this recording. The fact that you're also not destroying your records from repeated playing seems like a fantastic bonus.
...No, I don't have the money to buy one, but if I win the lottery, this is at the top of my list now! Thanks for the excellent demo.
It sounded very good to me ,even through TH-cam. It's a Good thing you feed it straight into your TH-cam channel. And didn't use speakers in the room which would of introduced room reflections etc. Well done.
It's "would have...", not "would of...".
@@HansDelbruck53 but you do realize would've sounds just like would of and that you probably would't catch it if he was talking? :)
now imagine how many missed opportunities there were to correct the people you were talking to.
by the way, i love "grammar nazis", they've helped me a lot :)
I still find it so facinating that it is even possible to play vinyl records with lasers. How it was never intended to play. That is amazing.
I enjoyed your presentation and I appreciate the knowledge I gained. I'm 84 and I started to listen to vinyl in 1949 (78s). I worked for Harvey Radio in NYC in 1959 and I eventually became an audio salesman for Lafayette Radio in 2 locations, NJ and NYC and I worked for SAE in 1979 as assistant to the production manager and I hob-nobbed with some of the industry's big shots. I owned many fine components. I found vinyl to be the biggest problem to the enjoyment of recorded music and that led me to prefer reel-to-reel tape and I ignored what little hiss was produced. Then in the early '80s I became acquainted with CDs and that was it for me, no more noisy vinyl and the CD sound was superior to the best vinyl, ignoring all of the dilettante critics. I will never own an ELP Laser Turntable to play inferior vinyl which was always an inferior medium. It was adquate for its time but not worth hearing the inherent noise. Give me a compact disc every time and it has laser. That's good enough for me.
And you get to enjoy the 16-bit sound, and the compressed/clipped "remasters" that the industry puts out. And all those "Giles Martin" remixes from hell.
@@cjay2 you'll listen the vinyls for the clicks/analog/worse quality, it's a style. It doesn't have the best quality at all.
What kind of ears do you have?? If you can't tell LPs have much more information than CDs and is in fact MUCH SUPERIOR than the UNFINISHED compact disc, then your hearing impaired! I knew I shouldn't have read the comments, you run into a "tone deaf" idiot everytime!
When me and my son sit down to a record we listen to it when we stream it we jump from track to track
@@gingernutpreacher you can listen the hole album as well on stream, you just don't do it.
I remember a friend telling me that it was possible to get a laser to read vinyl records in a similar way to CD's. However the music industry supported the CD format because they could get you to re-purchase your records all over again in a new format.
I think it's fair to say that for 99% of people, it was cheaper to re-purchase all their CDs than to pay $18K for this turntable 😉
I hope you returned your friend the favor and told him about Bigfoot conspiracy, about his ability to time travel , the key to his never being tracked or captured, that is being kept from us, by "Them".
@@mandolinic The first CD player was over $1,000 in 1982 however over time the price plummeted - the same would have happened
@@jontrewfrombarry That's probably true, but the necessity for deep cleaning each record before playing would still limit mass appeal, so the price drop wouldn't have been as dramatic as with CD players.
That sounds right ! Bastards
How the heck is this video less than 100k views? this was a wonderful look at this thing and I'd love to see an even deeper dive into the tech of how it works!
Do you have any idea how small the market is for something like this? 100k FAR exceeds what I would have expected. This is also not a new product, it’s been around for over a decade.
I saw it at the Toronto Electronics Show, I think it was 2014, May have been 13. The show was a disaster for the product. First of all the exhibitor had several limited pressings, in coloured acetate. Nobody had told him the player requires black vinyl only. He also did not have a quality cleaner, just a spray bottle and micro fiber cloth.
Tough to truly evaluate, even though the room had Audio Note electronics and some beautiful horn speakers. While very quiet, the bass was fat and undefined, vocals lacked definition and detail. A handful of quality MC cartridges with quality phono preamp, a Grado Epoch3 or similar is far, far superior in even a decent arm-table. If you wish to embrace actual ‘new technology’ in analog playback, have a listen to a DS Audio optical cartridge-preamp.
@@MichaelM-to4sg market shmarket. It's an entertaining well made video about a cool technology, presented by someone who seems to really enjoy talking about it. That's all I'm saying. I never said it was new, I never said I was embracing it. I just said I thought it was neat, and that I figure a lot of other people would too.
101K now
@@RetroBerner 108k now. The algorithm seems to be blessing this vid. Imma do a full rewatch shortly. Let's get this guy a viral hit.
@@MichaelM-to4sg' been around for over a decade' is an understatement my friend. How about three decades? This thing was patented in 1986!
Your speaking and oratory skills are wonderful. You have not adopted that youtube voice that so many other creators have adopted. The halting, lilting upspeak with "like" and "right" use prolifically as punctuation. I do wish your channel great success!
Thank you so much! If I've being honest, I'd largely given up on the channel because TH-cam wasn't promoting my content at all. For some reason, they started pushing this video last week...more than a year after it went live!
@@TheMusicAddict TH-cam is point-blank killing itself. I'm sure many have said, but Rumble really, really works good. They even sync uploads to TH-cam if you want. They also don't hit me with copyright for my concert footage.
@@TheMusicAddict The fact that you immediately attack audiophiles as being extremists or at least a bit crazy makes me less likely to continue watching your video. Just thought you should know this. Yeah.
@@TheMusicAddict TH-cam like controversy - especially that they can criticize later.
@@cjay2 Ha ha yet he's not wrong. Sometimes the truth simply hurts.
Great quality, even with the youtube compression... crystal clear stereo image. I can hear a couple of pops on the Debussy, but very faint, that I couldn't hear on the King Tut Strut. The Coryell/Brubeck had a pop or two also, but very impressive reproduction.
DIdn't notice much improvement to the frequency range but DID notice how QUIET it was when the music required quietness (if you know what I mean). Thanks for the education on a new (to me) ability to play my LP records! Nice to know about this electronic marvel but too expensive for my retirement income!
Nae rumble :D
I've known about the LT and ELP for a few decades now. ELP sent me sample CD which sounds fantastic. Maybe the Library of Congress has one (??) for archiving purposes. Speaking of the governments, it is technology like THIS that should be part of tech budgets. So much history can be archived in very high fidelity, as the still-prototype LT still hits at. Thx for the upload, Music Addict!
I had read that the library of congress was an early adaptor , and bought a machine when they first came out, but know nothing more , or if they have updated with newer machines.
I remember many years ago hearing that the Library of Congress was using this to transfer rare discs to a reference format for archival purposes. I believe the destination was PCM digital. Your example is quite impressive, much better transient response than I have ever heard from mag cartridge playback. I am one of those who sees vinyl as a fond throwback to another time, its only real plus being the proper size for artwork.
I’ve heard careful comparisons of pristine vinyl to the same label’s digital release using a single song familiar to everyone. As a music producer, that seems the right way to compare. Results so blatantly, unquestionably favored the digital release in every conceivable way, yet the quantity and tone of vinyl fanboy’s comments was predictable, claiming a startling improvement for the vinyl in every metric that was clearly the strong suit of the digital playback. This will never change. I hear the music as my decades of training allows. They hear what they want to hear.
P.S. Liked your audiofile (misspelling deliberate) comments.
Ok, but you didn't tell what your vinyl and digital setups where ? For all we know it know it have been a cheap turntable and an expensive digital rig ? Also calling someone a "Fanboy" that doesn't agree with you reeks
Reeks of snideness. To me anyways 😀
how funny, yesterday i was comparing the playback of the original CD of Michael Jackson 's "Dangerous" versus the original LP. The LP had increased resolution. Maybe you don't have a really good turntable.
or maybe all of the 2.5 people above in the replies to Peter's comments can't tell apart the sound being better because of being on a superior technology from being better on vinyl because they hired some jackass to mix and master the CD reprint :P
@@app0the It is ALWAYS a benefit to rip a couple of tracks from the CD and look at their waveforms to see if they've been compressed and/or completely brick-walled (clipping, extreme compression). It's easy to do for free (audacity is free).
Wondering how well it handles “bumps and jumps” while playing. When my kids were little, I could only play records while they slept. Most of my vinyl was only played once to transfer to metal biased tape. But taping clean was a huge challenge with kids in the house!
My grandkids think it’s utterly fascinating that Grandpa has “antique” records! 😂
My Dad had a set of custom audiophile quality speakers built by Jim Cross in the late 70's that weight 240lbs each. EACH! His setup has 4 of these speakers, 2 on each side that rested on custom oak stands. The cabs were made by creating a custom form and then vibrating a special concrete mix into the form to make it void free. There were then laminated in a black slate material. The result, the ultimate tuned cabinet. They are ridiculously solid, yet do not transfer any vibrations through the walls of the cab. Dad kept his Technics SL Q2 on top of one of these stacks. You could try all day to jump up and down to bounce the stylus and you would not succeed. I really need to make a video on these speakers.
@@chrisnealis4270 Very Cool!!
My dad use to copy vinyl to tape. I remember being tolled not to jump, when the record player was running.
I remember yelling 'CAREFUL WITH THAT DOOR' followed by the inevitable choice words, rewinding the tape, resetting the record player...
I was the kid in that house 🤣, with the heavy front door closed by parents.
I’m so glad I grew up when vinyl AND CD were common sights. Vinyl for the albums from 60s-80s, and CDs for recent releases. Plus dubbing both to tape for the Walkman! My dad patiently dubbed all his Beatles albums for me onto Type-II tape :) and made mixtapes from his other albums, vinyl or CD.
This means even the formats I didn’t have experience touching at least made sense to me - other shells for tape, or other ways of packaging a record groove. But I imagine people 10-15 years younger than me, accustomed to streaming, are looking back on any physical media the same way I regard an Edison cylinder!
I remember hearing about this somewhere, I'm surprised more companies aren't trying to perfect this technology, it could most certainly be improved upon. I'm glad someone was able to make a proper review of it, thanks man. Hopefully someday it'll be the cheap enough for the average person.
I agree , something with a lower, mass market, price would be nice. I had , out of curiosity , looked to see if this type of machine was still available , and was pleased to see a laser player was in production and being sold. But I am not hard core audiophile enough to want to buy a player at that price point.
@@richardelliott8352 : Regretfully, it will likely be decades before these things are affordable, if they ever are. The heyday of records is over, and these would need a lot of sales before they could be affordable... and even then, they'd likely still be on the upper range.
They've been out years, they're called CD players
My understanding is the Japanize company that bought the patent tried to recover their investment as fast as they can by pushing up the costs of the unit.
@@glynnetolar4423 Well, duh. But more importantly, they probably did a market analysis and found that there wouldn't be a market for it at all unless it was well over $10k.
We bought an ELP at work 10-15 years ago to transfer broken or fragile archival records. I cannot emphasize how much noise this thing picks up. I would not use this for recreational listening as the cleaning routine before listening takes up about half as much time as the actual listening. And even after repeated thorough cleaning/vacuuming, we always had a hard time finding a laser height that had little noise and full bandwidth. Most times, even on one-pass records, we ended up using an old Mccurdy broadcast player with an SP10 table.
I'm glad your experience with your table is much more positive.
Thanks so much for sharing your personal experience with the ELP! I've managed to get my cleaning process down to about 3-4 minutes per LP. I made a TH-cam Short on it that I just published the other day: th-cam.com/video/YUfQPrGXb_M/w-d-xo.html . I'll even let you in on a big secret: the audio from this short comes from the ELP and not the turntable pictured at the beginning and end of the video.
I was a rep for Finial.They showed their working laser turntable at 3 CES. they worked well but had to be set up sooo carefully.
We never sold the first one, but it was very cool tech. The biggest problem was that the laser read deep into the grooves. The good news was that there was fresh untouched vinyl down there so was very little noise, unless (the bad news) the LP wasn't completely clean. The sound was really good. I was ready to buy one for myself but it was not to be.
The Finial was supposed to sell for app $10,000.
Thanks so much for sharing this, David!
FWIW, the signal path was absolutely analog. Even in 85-86 this was a big deal. Why convert to digital and then back to analog?
I've also been fascinated by this technology for years. Great to hear one in action, even over TH-cam. Loved the flute track, btw.
Thank you! I really like how down to earth and clear spoken. So many times we audiophiles tend to carry a thesaurus in our back pockets with which to impress others. I envy you having that delightful gadget. Cheers!
I heard about turntables using lasers in the 80's, it must have been the early stages of development, but since then I've heard nothing. So to see and hear this fantastic gem is awesome. It sounds great, even with YT compression. And like you said the seperation is superb.
I was impressed by how quiet the background noise was. A stylus being dragged through the groove creates friction and surface noise. I didn't hear any in the sound samples of the ELP.
I've been waiting for this video for 20 years! Thank you~!
Thank you! And I agree, there needed to be a video on it.
@@TheMusicAddict QQ, what output did you use on this device? Line or phono into a premp? TY! - Edit, remembered you addressed this in video thanks!
Yup - line outs only on mine. 😀
I’m late to the party, but had to throw in a comment. I thoroughly enjoyed that flute track and the groove. I also enjoyed your take on this piece of hardware. Thank you for sharing the story of a player that very few people will ever get to listen to first hand.
I'm a EE and reformed audiophile and I've been dreaming of a laser turntable for decades -- I had no idea that they existed. Interestingly, I always thought it would be easier to keep the platter stationary and spin a carriage with mirrors above the disk. I'm a bit surprised at using 5 lasers -- I would think that beam-splitting optics on a single laser would do the job just fine. One advantage of a stationary platter is that some sort of vacuum system could be used to pull badly warped disks flat onto the platter.
In the meantime, I've found that nearly every one of my several hundred vinyls is already digitized and available for download. Of course, most of those were remastered -- and compressed -- in the process. At my advanced age (70), if there is a difference between vinyl and digital then I can no longer hear it. I have a very high-quality system with very revealing speakers (recently refurbished Magnepan MG1-Bs). I haven't owned a turntable in 20 years and passed my collection along to my oldest son -- he loves vinyl and apparently enjoys all the cleaning and babying. I love being able to download virtually anything and save anything I like on my local NAS (10 TB and readily expandable when needed).
In any case, this was a totally cool video.
It's so nice to see an Ozric Tentacles album on the shelf behind you.
Yes! Go glad you noticed!
@@TheMusicAddict
They're a good band, nice folk too.
Thank you for this. I've been curious to see (hear) one of these in action for years. And that first song you played was outstanding!
Great video and incredible insight into an extremely rare subject/device that most of us did not even know exists. Thank you for taking the time to make this.
God bless the funk and musical improvisation. What a song
I have no idea why, but this video completely fascinated me.
The best line i've heard from this entire video is that where you expressed how this thing brought you JOY. I think that's the bottom line. Period. Congrats and if i had the money, (which i don't hahaha) I would probably buy one myself :)
Wow, it sounds awsome. What an engineering masterpiece. I wish it was at a pricetag I could afford, but as it is an absolute niche product I can understand why it is that expensive.
I see one of my favorite albums behind you, Captain Beyond.
Thanks for taking it for the team and doing this review. For $18K I would have hoped for less blown plastic molding and stamped steel.
Hi Jeff. I found your video very interesting. I just thought I would share some knowledge. I agree 100% that the ELP is a brilliant design. The patent itself is a masterclass in how technical patents should be written. Something many people don't know is that Japanese researchers published a design for a laser player for old style mechanical cylinders about a month BEFORE Finial Technology applied for their patent. The reason this is significant is because that cylinder player operated on exactly the same principle as the ELP machine. Let me explain. The key component inside the ELP is a tiny light detector known as a Position Sensing Device (PSD). That device detects the position (or angle) of the laser spot reflected off the disc groove walls and outputs a voltage linearly proportional to it. That voltage gets converted to the audio signal that you hear. There are three PSD's inside the ELP. One for reading each groove (L and R) and one used as part of a height control mechanism. The cylinder player designed by the Japanese researchers also used a PSD to detect the laser beam reflected off the grooves in the mechanical cylinder. That constituted 'prior art'. Also, the idea for the height tracking mechanism was taken from a published Japanese research paper where the researcher demonstrated how to measure changes in height (or vibrations) using a PSD. That too could possibly be constituted 'prior art' because the ELP is essentially using the PSD reading the grooves as vibration sensors. It's interesting that the Laser Turntable is widely thought to be an American invention but the key technology was already well known by Japanese researchers. In my humble opinion Finial Technology got very lucky with their patent application because there was definitely prior art. ELP (formerly BSR Japan) reportedly paid Reis and Stoddard millions for their patent when they could have challenged it instead and possibly gotten the technology for free.
Fascinating! Thank you for the history!
Very interesting. I remember looking at record grooves under a microscope and thinking of the complexity of the tracking problem they solved is pretty impressive, if not 100% reliable. I actually bought one and am awaiting shipment. If money will soon be worthless I may as well spend it on worthless gear before exchange rates are impacted. ; )
@@1fattyfatman Amazing! I can't wait to hear your impressions of it!
I also found this very informative, many thanks I realize it is nothing new, but I find it fascinating that all of this astounding stuff can ultimately be traced back to Einstein's original thinking about the properties of energy and light , the good old, E equals M C squared. Not that I could explain it, it was explained to me using an explanation of how automatically opening doors work.
I remember reading, decades ago, that someone was experimenting with the idea of reading the grooves with a laser, and thinking that would be great for records that have a damaged groove that skips or repeats, and maybe could play records that are actually broken. I happen upon this video, and sure enough, they did it! And years ago. Modern technology comes to the rescue of old technology.
Seems to me it's the supercar of record players: it's overly engineered, a bit finicky, does the job that far cheaper models can do, overly expensive and rare; fantastic, it always interesting to see what can be done. Thanks for showing us in great detail. I would ask who wouldn't like that, but that's been covered. Thanks again, what a great piece of kit.
I thought about the idea of a laser turntable for 20 years. I always asked myself why they didn't make one. My idea came from eliminating the physical wear on records. I had no idea that they really existed. Thanks for your analysis.
Thanks for making this video, very enjoyable. What a machine. Amazing sound, amazing music picks. 💜
Even handling imperfections like the one at 20:09 and this player is a real trooper!
Oh yes, I remember reading about a laser player like this decades ago, maybe in Popular Mechanics, or maybe Entertainment Weekly... definitively not Creem. Thought it was gone to oblivion with the video laserdiscs, but here it is!
Used to clean vinyl records before playing, so it wouldn't bother me. But having to sell my flat to get me one...
Just like others, I learned about the laser turntable, and left with a King Tut Strut and Temple of Birth love! It's just a shame I can't find any other medium other than vinyl. Man, thanks SO much for turning me on to this. You replied about how TH-cam would have demonitized you, and you could have chosen anything, but you chose this. I was totally blown away by Jeremy Steig. You made a new thread of music for me and I do appreciate it! Thanks again!
I've been waiting for this video for almost 15 years!) Thank you very much. And I prefer to see interview with founder in youк next videos.
You are luckiest man!
Very informative! It seems very accurate, obvious separation and great sound even when "processed" through TH-cam, the internet, my computer and pc speakers $5 from Goodwill .
Indeed, the stereo separation is mind-boggling, knowing it's coming from an LP, despite the prosessing.
You really need to spend $10 on speakers to get the Really good stuff 😀
Thank you for this! I've always been very curious about this machine, and I love that you provided so much detail and audio samples. I also truly appreciate the lack of audiophile nonsense.
I love your review, very nice style and wry sense of humour. A pleasure listening to you.
Thank you for addressing the hate on this first thing. I am considering purchasing one because I am insane but when researching it was baffled to see so many people shitting on this and thinking to myself "how many people have actually heard this thing?"
I'm another who knew about this machine and wondered what it really sounded like. Many thanks for doing this video. The handling of the dynamic range on the Debussy was very interesting.
What would be great is if there were some for rent here in the USA, just like you can rent all sorts of other equipment. It would be great to have one for a few months to do transfers from old vinyl, without having actually purchase it.
I remember hearing about these years ago. They never caught on. Upside, no physical wear on your vynl. Downside, too touchy with technical problems. Overall, it sounds really good.
I can dig it. I wish the price point would come down so more people can experience it first hand. Thanks for making the video and being so honest and real.
I do like the idea of this concept. The sound that you provided, to my ears, was a fairly clean rendition of a vinyl record. Good to get an honest insight as to what to expect with one of these devices.
This was very interesting. I love digital and analog music. I have always loved things that move and light up. I think this may be a factor in some people preferring traditional turntables, especially since most audiophiles already have an investment in traditional audio equipment. I would love to see the working parts of this turntable functioning but similar to CD players that is probably not an option. Thanks for the review.
I had an idea for a laser record player... then I saw this video and realized it exists. It sounds incredible.
Yes...bad timing.
@José Sousa it should be 1/10th - 1/20th the cost tho.
Wow! Thanks for bringing this device to my attention! Heard whisperings about this decadesago, and I had no idea they's made a commercial version. I hope you like it. You've certainly earned a subscriber with this one!
Thanks so much for watching, Jim. I really appreciate it!
with any kind of luck, enough people will subscribe so that he can fully update his machine , which will hopefully then attract even more subscribers. I was just watching another you tube channel about what used to be old corvettes, and he got so many subscribers that he can now finance his new corvette and new content from the viewers of his channel.
Well, I'm blown away by that, a moment of left channel dropout at 20:09 but wow that was special LP playback indeed. Listening on HD650 phones via an Essence HDACC. Signal path from TH-cam is Laptop outputting 44.1 kHz over HDMI.
I have owned LPs from about 1970 or so & apart from the left dropout that is the cleanest and most delightfully detailed playback I have ever heard from an LP. If only it was an affordable turntable! Shame it will never be for me, that's for sure.
The dropout was from my janky cabling job connecting the ELP to my DAW and not from the ELP itself. It was one of those "if you breathe on it, it'll break" kind of cabling setups.
@@TheMusicAddict Oh OK, ya for that. I am really very impressed with that playback.
I also saw a video about playing records wet. Hadn't heard of that before, not as clean & detailed as your laser player, but cleaner than any record cleaning I have come across in the last 50 years or so. Perhaps I'll try that. I think I have just the record for a test too.
I love your video, man... ever since I knew about this turntable I've wanted to know what it sounded like, thanks for those audio samples. Being from México I'm usually on a tight budget, so I don't think I would ever have the opportunity to get this turntable, but I'm fine with the equipment I have.
Thank you so much for watching! I really appreciate it!
This is a terrific and insightful video. I'm honestly surprised it has so few views. Hopefully others will stumble across it as I did. The technology is fascinating and I'd be curious to own one myself, were it not for the price and need for pristine LPs.
Thanks so much for the kind words! I really appreciate it. TH-cam's algorithm is indeed a mystery!
É o sistema trabalhando contra nós. Para o TH-cam não interessa assuntos sérios, só fakenews é sacanagem!
That track man... Gorgeous. Loved it. Makes me miss music like that. Even though I've only been on this earth for 20 years. Stuff like that is a lot better than the stuff we get now that's for sure. I miss it even though I wasn't around for it.
There you go. After many years finally an answer to my questions. Thanks!
I really like the concept. From a technical point of view, this isn't at all easy. For a start, the tracking of the groove itself requires a position control mechanism with feedback loops of some sort. It should be able to deal with obvious distortion of the vinyl, eccentricity etc. rapidly enough while not locking in on the groove amplitude itself. The lateral precision should be at least 10 micron, probably better, and the height apparently can be adjusted with 1 micron increments. That's at about 0.5 Hz - 5 Hz rock solid locking in. LP audio starts at 20 Hz and the tracking shouldn't see that at all. In practice, I imagine some crosstalk between tracking and audio to exist. The same applies to a stylus of course but that is inertia based not via feedback PID control or similar.
While that sounds complicated, I imagine the tracking works in a manner similar to how all optical disc drives work in which the laser has to remain at a constant distance from the reflective layer of the disc, and it does this at up to 10k RPM for high speed drives... 33 RPM almost seems trivial in comparison. Granted, records were never _designed_ to be tracked optically, so it makes sense that there are multiple lasers just to ensure they are following the right path.
Very cool, but I actually wish it were designed less like a traditional analog playback device, and more like an optical drive. If it were to analyze the disc over multiple passes of varying depths at high speed and buffer the results, there would be an opportunity to resolve tracking errors, correct for eccentricity, and average out good "data" from bad.
Dude Thank you! I have wondered for decades why there never was a laser turn table. It seemed to me a non-destructive way to play back vinyl records was the holy grail for audiophiles. But, they be crazy. This thing sounds great. I think most Audiophiles are not musicians and not concert goers. So they have no idea what it is like to actually play in an ensemble, or sit in a concert hall.
I had heard about these many years ago, Although I haven't actually searched for info on them on the internet, it was still at the back of my mind. So I'm really happy that YT has suggested me your video. Very interesting indeed, and I thought the audio sounded really good here, so I can imagine that in person it must be very nice 😊
Read about a laser turntable in PLAYBOY decades ago and was hoping it would reach the masses, but heard nothing further. Thanks.
Great video man! You really know your stuff :)
Thanks so much! I really appreciate it!
I saw and heard a prototype of this player back in the 80s. Even back then, the idea was to get the price down. With today’s technology, why hasn’t someone else made a laser turntable? It could easily be made to sell for a few hundred dollars. Remember how expensive CD players were at first? Then towards the end, you could pick up a portable CD player for as little as $20. ELP must be sitting on the patents for this device. People today are still buying turntables. Why hasn’t some big electronics company made their own version of this? There’s a big enough market out there for a non damaging record player!
I think , protected tech aside, the big companies are not interested in trying to satisfy consumers that are used to a technology that has been basically perfected over about a hundred years. early adapters know the score, and the mass market has very different product expectations.
I also remember looking at these ELP on their website over 20 years ago. I would have loved to buy one... but the price... Oh my!
Amazing to see one in details on TH-cam! 👏🏻
Awesome, thank you so much for this video! I remember thinking about a laser turntable about 10 or more years ago and wondering if anyone had made one. I was curious, so I searched online and was excited to find them. However, when I saw the prices, I was disappointed. lol The audio quality is actually really good! You don't get the crackle from static which is the majority of the popping in most vinyl!
It has a great dynamic range. I'm a drummer and listen to subtleties. I can tell the drummer is using wooden tip sticks instead of plastic tip, not something easily heard on records with a stylus. I can also tell somewhere in the middle the drummer missed a fill and either hit the rim of the tom while switching toms or the side of the tom. At first I thought it was a click in the vinyl and I listened to it a few times to say "Ah HA!" It was not a vinyl click after all. It does sound as clear as a very high sample rate wav file though. I am impressed but I still believe that remastered tapes to FLAC(something that can be found on HD Audio) will sound just as good if not better on a $10 media player the size of the palm of your hand that would play .wav or .flac with dual or triple driver ear plugs.
A few years ago I bought one of those FLAC files supposedly at 96Khz. After analysis I found it seems all they did is upconvert from CD. The HD audio people had been called out by others on this and all they could say is, we sell what the record companies give us. Or translated, we got your money sucker.
@@glynnetolar4423 _"After analysis I found it seems all they did is upconvert from CD."_ Yea, same thing was done with BluRay when it was first released too. Nobody complained about that. Still an upconverted from CD will still sound better on a $10 media player.
Oh, that was adorable that you tried to show people they were wrong by giving them FACTS... I remember when I was that naïve. People are happier believing in something ridiculously false than to admit they were wrong.
I just love the fact it named ELP - wich is my favorite band ever!
Nice down to earth review, with a good touch of humor thrown into the mix at times. I agree this is a fascinating way to play a record, trying to combine one of the big benefits of CD (no contact so no wear on the disc) with the much cherished vinyl technology.
Regarding the discs needing to be very clean, maybe ELP can install a silent blower and/or brush to clean the groove that is about to be played, while the disc is turning?
I remember asking for a demo CD back in 2006, which ELP has kindly provided to me at no cost at all. Unfortunately it got lost when I moved last year :( I really appreciate that you made this video about the laser turntable, as it gave me a little bit more insight on the thing. It also made me wonder if the faint sound of the record emitted from the device is part of how it actually generates sound, like with a conventional phono cartridge, or just a byproduct.
Honestly, I can't afford a €10000 car, so I won't be getting one of these things soon, but I'm more than happy with my Revox B795 turntable, even though it's hated by many, just like the ELP LT :)
It's likely the sound of a tracking servo. You can hear these servos in CD players as well, however it comes through as a hissing sound. I presume that if it's having to keep the laser spot to within a few microns in the groove, it's going to have to move some kind of focusing assembly/lens and that would produce an audible sound.
I have and lost this cd too... Come with some papers explaining how works the elp
@@drozcompany4132 Yes, I think it is the sound of a tracking servo (I've been told it is a 'scanner mirror's vibration' under 4 kHz for tracking groove) - was a bit concerned about that 'needle chatter' at first)
Spotted that Thrust in the background! Dope record. Dope video too
So glad you noticed! I tried to put some fun stuff back there to see who spotted what.
If I were in the business of digitally archiving old, out-of-print vinyl records and wanted them to be as near a perfect reproduction of the actual waveforms on the record, I could see this as a worthwhile investment. Two things caught my ear in particular: 1) It did indeed pick up surface noise as you described and, 2) It appeared to have near-flawless stereo separation.
I would capture the output from the ELP with a very high-quality D/A converter such as a UAD 2-channel audio interface (their interfaces are even better than Avid Protools interfaces). I would capture it at 24-bit, 192 kHz. I would remove surface noise with Izotope's mastering and denoising suite - very carefully and judiciously. Other than that, I would not alter it in any way. When ordering it, I would definitely ask for a special order with balanced outs instead of the RCA connectors which are not balanced, therefore, prone to picking up 60 Hz hum and other electrical interference.
I've been waiting SO LONG for someone to do a proper video on one of these. I check every once in a while and was happy to find this video. I'd buy one if I had the cash. I like the sound actually.
Awesome video. Appreciate The effort you’ve put into it. Can you let me know what it does for inner groove distortion?
inner grove distortion should be non existent in playback, because there is no pivot to cause any deviation from optimal grove alignment , such as with a record arm.
@@richardelliott8352 that’s my thinking, but the other contributing factor to the distortion is obviously the IPS that the stylus travels through the groove is greatly reduced the closer you get to the end of the recording. Would love a comparison using well know presses of records.
Loving seeing an American who owns an Ozric Tentacles LP!!!
Having heard horror stories about dusty records and scratched records in the ELP, would have loved to hear samples of what happens when you play them.
20:07: I'm pretty sure what happens to the left channel a few seconds after the timestamp is what you get, and it's not pretty.
@@nathanc6516 interesting. Without headphones, that completely escaped my notice. Not at all what I expected, but very annoying. Thanks!
@@nathanc6516 Good catch. If so, I'm curious if the absence of sound is due to the "noise blanking" feature he mentioned, and if it sounds different with the setting reversed.
AFAIR scratched LP (with deep scratch that results in 'pop' on every revolution) was much more listenable ('pop' much quieter) than with conventional turntable. Also read-out position could be adjusted and it helps as well. (I rarely listen to LP's and can't check it right now)
As for the dust - I've replaced my records to brand new cheap sleeves after first clean and replay and I don't remember ever having to clean them again before subsequent playing (though I'm playing LPs maybe twice a year).
78's I play mostly dirty (but for worn Polish pre-war ones a bit of dust or even 80+ dirt in the groove is not of a great importance IMHO).
Just when we needed him the most... he returned.
Ugly D! I've missed you! Look in the video details for my Twitch and Discord links. I've been doing live music streams on Twitch four days a week.
Impressive, channel separation excellent and overall audio very nice open and very realistic.
This thing seems like it would be perfect for archiving rare recordings. I wonder if there is a version for 78s. As we know, 78s vary widely in grooves, equalizations, and speeds!
These ELP's should be perfect for the modern, digital sourced vinyl. Almost like a CD. (lol)
never thought they actually made one of these , i have thought for years how to play a LP with a laser , this was cool seeing one in the flesh and playing
Great video & thanks for your candor ✊
Thank you so much for the video! Very informative. I always wanted to hear one in person. Have you done a shootout between the ELP and another turntable to compare the sounds quality? I'd be curious to see how it measures up head to head with a $1,000-$2,000 turntable setup.
I've compared it directly with another setup, although it falls a little short of the $1000 mark: a modded AT LP120 turntable with an Ortofon 2m Blue cart. There was no comparison - the ELP blew it away.
@@TheMusicAddict Thank you! It's very intriguing. I'm familiar with that exact setup. I've seen a few for sale every now and again, far from the $18K of a new one, but one of the things that would definitely deter me at least is the lack of service in the U.S. Though I always wanted one of these :-)
@@TheMusicAddict that makes perfect sense. at the asking price, if it didn't achieve such results, it would be back to the drawing boards before they were all out of a job.
It was remarkably free of the "a spot of the old ultra violence" of the snap-crackles-and pops of the traditional pointy stick-in-a-groove approach :-)
Awesome video! Thanks a bunch!
We need a new twitch channel point redemption for you playing the flute like this
THIS. THIS is why you get paid the big bucks.
Hey, thanks for sharing this and I just was waiting a long time for somebody to post a video about this thing.
Did you try MONO lps with this player?
I read in their page that you can select what groove to read, the right or the left groove when you are playing MONO records.
Also, how good the VSO works for some records that have some wore compare to traditional player.
I've played a handful of mono LPs on the ELP. There aren't any separate settings for mono LPs on my model; the VSO works just as it does on stereo LPs. It worked great!
As for the VSO in general, I'd say that it works well enough, but I haven't found there to be a huge difference on any of my LPs.