I remember a few years ago, you did either a FedEx or UPS flight that landed without gear. How does one tow an aircraft off of the runway after a gear failure?
I wondered why it took a prompt from ATC to do the pass. Maybe it was a checklist item they just hadn't gotten to yet? As far as I know that's always standard at airports with a tower.
And the suggestion to turn lights on was a great bit of inspiration by the tower, though it sounded like it wouldn't help in this case. Always great to see/hear such professionalism in the skies-and that last comment on the landing was nice too.
As a ground guy for many years, the Hawker was always one of my favorites, quirks and all. Built like a tank, simple to service, one of the easier planes to tow all considered. My only worry in all the time working with them is the fact that the landing gear doors are manually disengaged for various reasons and the nosewheel steering pin is something that can get bungled as well, so any time I was disconnecting or reconnecting the doors or pulling the pin, I always double and triple checked everything to ensure I was never the cause of something like this.
Frigid welcome it may be, but as long as you can get the engine(s) started, and as long as the anti-icing features work (if present), aircraft LOVE cold weather. Lower temperature means denser air, and denser air improves both engine and wing performance. In other words, on a hot day you might need "X%" throttle to take off, but on a cold day you'll need LESS than "X%" throttle to take off in the same distance. EDIT: Yes, if you're a living being, human or otherwise, such cold temperatures ARE rather unpleasant. I'm just talking about how the physics work related to the aircraft itself.
I literally just got my Hawker 800/900XP type yesterday, first jet. It was stressed to us in school that if you can’t get all three down, just put it on the belly. The Hawker is built like a tank and has a skid plate for gear ups. It’s very likely to be a hull loss if the nose only is up. Depending on what’s failed on the hydraulic system, it’s possible that they couldn’t get the gear back up.
Whether that or not, it looked like, in video, that the stress on the airframe was minimal on this landing due to precise "flying" on two wheels before lowering the nose.
The Hawker has so many goofy features and this is definitely one of them. IIRC the XPs are allowed an extra belly landing before needing a replacement keel since it goes farther back for the ventral tank. Something like that. Doing an emergency gear extension really does suck in this plane though.
@@KennethAGrimm the problem with landing on the lose, even lightly, is that the point of impact is the edge of the pressure vessel. If that is damaged AT ALL the airframe is done.
@ Kind of like a tails-strike on the big boys, which is generally close to the pressure-bulkhead at the opposite end. Thanks for the engineering insight. I was not implying the pilot made the best decision (if it was his decision at all to keep the mains down), but that given that the mains were down, the pilot did a good job. As to why the mains were down, given that the Hawker manual says to land on the "alternate gear" in that situation if possible, I will not sit here and say the pilot disregarded the manual, rather, until proven otherwise, I will assume the mains would not go up.
@@VASAviation some aircraft have the lights on the nose gear can be used as a second down and locked indication. The lights won’t come on if the gear is unlocked but will if it’s locked.
The Hawker has secondary gear down indications, the mains have lights in a covered panel on the copilot side and the nose gear has a pin that will stick up out of the center pedestal.
@@VASAviationUA1900 (787) with immediate return to SFO with electrical smell in the cabin (no smell in the cockpit per the flight deck)… landed safely. Trucks following it back to gate.
There’s a metal keel (beryllium) that’s attached to the bottom of the Hawker 800 series aircraft. I believe that in the aircraft Manuel it’s referred to as an Emergency Landing gear. So if you land gear up the keel will need to be replace and the flaps. But not much else! FYI. Beryllium is lighter than aluminum but stronger than Steel.
Stiffer, at least, not really stronger. I'm surprised they would use beryllium in a potentially abrading application given the toxicity concerns - but then again it has been used in brakes. Nasty stuff.
It’s actually approved for multiple gear up landings before needing replaced which I thought was wild. I want to say it’s 2 in the older models and 3 with the XPs due to the ventral tank but I could be wrong. Wasn’t super high on my really important things to remember.
We can do that to take one more thing off of the pilot's plate. They were busy running their checklists so ATC just went ahead and did it for them to make sure they get priority handling.
@@sythemaster1You should still be declaring an emergency when it's evident there's such a significant problem. Even if it resolves, that's fine.. Declare an emergency.
@@Tortex88 generally yes, we leave it to the pilots. But, we never know for sure what’s all going on in the cockpit and if it takes something off of their plate while they troubleshoot, we’d rather declare for them. There are also times, usually involving inexperienced VFR pilots, where the pilots get so disoriented that they don’t even realize they’re in an emergency situation.
There was an issue years back with Hawkers that would allow a valve in the nose landing gear to freeze. There is a checklist item for this. You open the emergency pressurization valve to get hot air then open the emergency pressurization dump valve to dump that hot air into the nose wheel well to unfreeze the valve.
Ouch, you could tell the moment they had completed the checklist and still didn't have a good gear indication - like he immediately realized he was going to be doing a gear-up landing and causing $$$$$$ of damage on a beautiful jet in a matter of minutes. Gotta be a crappy feeling... but did a perfect job.
That's true enough, but you know how it is, "Any landing everyone can walk away from is a 'good' landing, and if you can reuse the aircraft after, it's a 'great' landing!" IMO it's also worth noting that the nose gear is the "least important" one out of the options of "2 main landing gear and the nose", because at least you don't have to worry about veering off the runway due to asymmetric landing gear states (can't be laterally asymmetric if the failed gear is roughly on the center-line of the aircraft). This is why WWII prop-fighters like the Spitfire would do a belly landing rather than land on only one main landing gear, that veering off the runway thing is rather more likely to cause damage than simply sliding along the runway (which during WWII was very frequently just a clear strip of grass, so even LESS damaging to do a belly landing on than a "properly" paved runway). Even better still, to my knowledge most aircraft (including airliners, GA retractable gear aircraft, and business jets) are designed with extra strength in the nose area specifically so that a failed nose landing gear doesn't cause the kind of damage that leads to the aircraft needing to be in the repair shop for a long period. The usual result is that the aircraft with a failed nose gear might get away with as little as some patches to the skin of the fuselage where it scraped the ground, as well as a detailed structural inspection so that they know what they need to fix and what's still up to standard.
Additionally, with business jets specifically, the actual cost of the damage is usually less important than the downtime it takes to repair it, since only a fool would operate such an expensive vehicle without having insurance that will pay for damages sustained during an in-flight emergency such as this landing gear failure.
@@44R0Ndin unless, of course, they are big enough that the economics work out better for eating the cost. Insurance has to be a bad deal on average, or nobody could afford to offer it.
@@44R0Ndin that’s fine, but these pilots are usually just independent employees - and there are a LOT of people out there looking for jobs like this. That is NOT a phone call you want to make to the aircraft owner.
The alt gear extension on the Hawker 800 can be tricky. You have to leave the manual pump handle "unstowed" after pumping it up. If the handle is "stowed" the system wont maintain pressure. It is possible the gear up landing "could" have been avoided. Just a guess.
They said "appear down and locked". It's not a final confirmation for the pilot, just what's observed. That plane would have flown right by the tower during the low approach. They also utilize binoculars up there.
Given it wasnt doing the loud tone thing that happens when they actually get stepped on, I think this is an effect of the SDR recording a wide swath of frequencies, and not something the actual pilot or tower would be hearing.
possibly co-channel interference caused by an improperly tuned radio. that is to say, if you set the bandwidth too wide, you can bring in audio from other nearby channels
Destination Airfield: FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT - EDEN PRAIRIE, MN (KFCM) Runway Information Runway 28L Dimensions: 5001 x 100 ft. / 1524 x 30 m Surface: asphalt/grooved, in good condition Weight bearing capacity: Single wheel: 30.0 Double wheel: 60.0 Runway edge lights: high intensity RUNWAY 28L Latitude: 44-49.585958N Longitude: 093-27.107618W Elevation: 898.3 ft. Traffic pattern: left Runway heading: 278 magnetic, 281 true Markings: nonprecision, in good condition Visual slope indicator: 4-light PAPI on left (3.00 degrees glide path) Runway end identifier lights: yes Touchdown point: yes, no lights Obstructions: none
@jimw1615 Flying Cloud is, or used to be 30 years ago when I was flying out of there, one of the busiest GA airports in the country. It butts up to the MSP class Bravo airspace to the East.
@@billstevens3796 Flying Cloud looked like a great airport when I did my Google Map recon to see where this pilot was heading. I learned to fly at Hayward Air Terminal, CA and we were near Oakland International Airport's approach to Runway 30. Pattern altitude was 650 feet for us to provide a vertical separation.
So, I'm a complete amateur at flying, but how would they land like that? I'd be interested to learn how pilots are taught to handle it. Amazing coordination and they were calm as can be.
Nose gear up landing is the same as a normal landing all the way thru touchdown with the mains, but instead of getting the nose gear on the ground in a hurry, you try to hold it off the ground with a nose-high attitude so that the aircraft uses the wings to help create drag to slow the aircraft down, and you keep doing that until there is no longer enough airflow over the tail surfaces to keep the nose off the ground. After that, continue using the rudder and/or differential braking to keep the aircraft on the runway center-line. That's the theory behind it anyways.
I am not a pilot. But I have driven thousands upon thousands of hours in an automobile. I’ve never been in a major wreck (like 90% of us). I have, however had a wheel bearing cut loose on me, and lost a water pump once. Yesterday (I live in the U.S.) I followed a school bus home. He had a major water leak and was dropping antifreeze all along the road. He did not yet know it, but he was in serious trouble. When he dropped his students off, I informed him of his mechanical failure. Ooops! Not his fault. I can only imagine the extra stress the pilots are under. Me, I have wheels on the ground, and can easily pull off to the side of the road. Pilots and airplanes have small places to put wheels on the ground. Great job!
What you heard in this video from ATC and the pilot fire crew on the ground at Minneapolis was textbook on how it should be done amazing work by everyone great communication all around great job done
@VASAviation yes, it seems down. How could he possibly know that it seems locked? Completely impossible to judge from the ground - don't say it at all.
@@VASAviation he will go to jail judged with at least partial blame if god forbid something bad happens on a dodgy landing with a collapsing landing gear and that's a fact. First lesson on TWR Control: never tell a pilot that his landing gear seems to be locked because you just don't know.
@ I can understand that aspect of it when you’re in the middle of running a checklist and notifying passengers/cabin crew what’s going on. Also, pumping a Hawker gear down is legit hard work.
Looks like a perfect nose gear up landing that one. Kudos to those pilots! Hope she can get repaired soon!
I remember a few years ago, you did either a FedEx or UPS flight that landed without gear. How does one tow an aircraft off of the runway after a gear failure?
@@weylinwest9505 Jacks, chains and whatever you have on hand :)
Often lifted by cushions, wheel made to come down, repaired, and towed
Super impressive comms and suggestion for low pass by ATC. Great job by the pilots getting her down safely.
I wondered why it took a prompt from ATC to do the pass. Maybe it was a checklist item they just hadn't gotten to yet? As far as I know that's always standard at airports with a tower.
And the suggestion to turn lights on was a great bit of inspiration by the tower, though it sounded like it wouldn't help in this case.
Always great to see/hear such professionalism in the skies-and that last comment on the landing was nice too.
@@beenaplumber8379maybe with less than 60 min fuel they were initially going to skip it.
@ Good point - I hadn't thought of that. I know companies can be draconian if crews land with less than a certain amount of fuel onboard.
Very professional. If I was paying whatever it costs to charter a Hawker, I'd be pretty happy to have them up front.
I don't think this is a charter. I think this is a company-owned aircraft.
When you think of the instances of tension between tower and craft it's really good to see cooperation the way it should be.
As a ground guy for many years, the Hawker was always one of my favorites, quirks and all. Built like a tank, simple to service, one of the easier planes to tow all considered. My only worry in all the time working with them is the fact that the landing gear doors are manually disengaged for various reasons and the nosewheel steering pin is something that can get bungled as well, so any time I was disconnecting or reconnecting the doors or pulling the pin, I always double and triple checked everything to ensure I was never the cause of something like this.
Fantastic job by everyone involved.
Pilots are amazingly calm and handled that situation perfectly.
Excellent job by all involved
Hell of a pilot and well done to ATC
Well done crew. Also, it was a HIGH of -6 (Fahrenheit) on this day in Minneapolis. That's frigid welcome out on the tarmac.
Keep in mind they were out in the open, the wind chill was probably -25 to -30
@@ARPTakao Yes, it was a nasty cold day...even for Minnesotans.
@DrPede i know, i live there
Frigid welcome it may be, but as long as you can get the engine(s) started, and as long as the anti-icing features work (if present), aircraft LOVE cold weather.
Lower temperature means denser air, and denser air improves both engine and wing performance. In other words, on a hot day you might need "X%" throttle to take off, but on a cold day you'll need LESS than "X%" throttle to take off in the same distance.
EDIT: Yes, if you're a living being, human or otherwise, such cold temperatures ARE rather unpleasant. I'm just talking about how the physics work related to the aircraft itself.
I literally just got my Hawker 800/900XP type yesterday, first jet. It was stressed to us in school that if you can’t get all three down, just put it on the belly. The Hawker is built like a tank and has a skid plate for gear ups. It’s very likely to be a hull loss if the nose only is up.
Depending on what’s failed on the hydraulic system, it’s possible that they couldn’t get the gear back up.
Whether that or not, it looked like, in video, that the stress on the airframe was minimal on this landing due to precise "flying" on two wheels before lowering the nose.
The Hawker has so many goofy features and this is definitely one of them. IIRC the XPs are allowed an extra belly landing before needing a replacement keel since it goes farther back for the ventral tank. Something like that. Doing an emergency gear extension really does suck in this plane though.
@@KennethAGrimm the problem with landing on the lose, even lightly, is that the point of impact is the edge of the pressure vessel. If that is damaged AT ALL the airframe is done.
@ Kind of like a tails-strike on the big boys, which is generally close to the pressure-bulkhead at the opposite end. Thanks for the engineering insight. I was not implying the pilot made the best decision (if it was his decision at all to keep the mains down), but that given that the mains were down, the pilot did a good job. As to why the mains were down, given that the Hawker manual says to land on the "alternate gear" in that situation if possible, I will not sit here and say the pilot disregarded the manual, rather, until proven otherwise, I will assume the mains would not go up.
@@KennethAGrimm haha, alternate gear. I like that.
6:25 Good thing ATC is thinking with the pilots. If flipping the light switch fixes their nose gear problem, that would've been a small "oopsie".
More thinking of "if the assembly has a light and I don't see the light, then the whole gear assembly is still retracted"
@@VASAviation some aircraft have the lights on the nose gear can be used as a second down and locked indication. The lights won’t come on if the gear is unlocked but will if it’s locked.
@@VASAviation Well, that makes much more sense indeed.
The Hawker has secondary gear down indications, the mains have lights in a covered panel on the copilot side and the nose gear has a pin that will stick up out of the center pedestal.
@@VASAviationUA1900 (787) with immediate return to SFO with electrical smell in the cabin (no smell in the cockpit per the flight deck)… landed safely. Trucks following it back to gate.
There’s a metal keel (beryllium) that’s attached to the bottom of the Hawker 800 series aircraft. I believe that in the aircraft Manuel it’s referred to as an Emergency Landing gear. So if you land gear up the keel will need to be replace and the flaps. But not much else! FYI. Beryllium is lighter than aluminum but stronger than Steel.
Stiffer, at least, not really stronger. I'm surprised they would use beryllium in a potentially abrading application given the toxicity concerns - but then again it has been used in brakes. Nasty stuff.
It’s actually approved for multiple gear up landings before needing replaced which I thought was wild. I want to say it’s 2 in the older models and 3 with the XPs due to the ventral tank but I could be wrong. Wasn’t super high on my really important things to remember.
Like the beryllium that was the heart of the Quantum Flux Drive that ran the NTE-3120, NSEA-Protector?
@@pattyhaley9594 indeed a very important beryllium sphere
Also used as a neutron “reflector” in some nuclear reactors. Specifically the one I used to help operate at Mizzou. Very cool place.
Always interesting when ATC has to tell them they have an emergency.
We can do that to take one more thing off of the pilot's plate. They were busy running their checklists so ATC just went ahead and did it for them to make sure they get priority handling.
@@sythemaster1You should still be declaring an emergency when it's evident there's such a significant problem. Even if it resolves, that's fine.. Declare an emergency.
@@Tortex88 generally yes, we leave it to the pilots. But, we never know for sure what’s all going on in the cockpit and if it takes something off of their plate while they troubleshoot, we’d rather declare for them.
There are also times, usually involving inexperienced VFR pilots, where the pilots get so disoriented that they don’t even realize they’re in an emergency situation.
There was an issue years back with Hawkers that would allow a valve in the nose landing gear to freeze. There is a checklist item for this. You open the emergency pressurization valve to get hot air then open the emergency pressurization dump valve to dump that hot air into the nose wheel well to unfreeze the valve.
Nose gear on the Hawker, never fails!!! Or is it always fails, I forget.
Ouch, you could tell the moment they had completed the checklist and still didn't have a good gear indication - like he immediately realized he was going to be doing a gear-up landing and causing $$$$$$ of damage on a beautiful jet in a matter of minutes. Gotta be a crappy feeling... but did a perfect job.
That's true enough, but you know how it is, "Any landing everyone can walk away from is a 'good' landing, and if you can reuse the aircraft after, it's a 'great' landing!"
IMO it's also worth noting that the nose gear is the "least important" one out of the options of "2 main landing gear and the nose", because at least you don't have to worry about veering off the runway due to asymmetric landing gear states (can't be laterally asymmetric if the failed gear is roughly on the center-line of the aircraft). This is why WWII prop-fighters like the Spitfire would do a belly landing rather than land on only one main landing gear, that veering off the runway thing is rather more likely to cause damage than simply sliding along the runway (which during WWII was very frequently just a clear strip of grass, so even LESS damaging to do a belly landing on than a "properly" paved runway).
Even better still, to my knowledge most aircraft (including airliners, GA retractable gear aircraft, and business jets) are designed with extra strength in the nose area specifically so that a failed nose landing gear doesn't cause the kind of damage that leads to the aircraft needing to be in the repair shop for a long period. The usual result is that the aircraft with a failed nose gear might get away with as little as some patches to the skin of the fuselage where it scraped the ground, as well as a detailed structural inspection so that they know what they need to fix and what's still up to standard.
Additionally, with business jets specifically, the actual cost of the damage is usually less important than the downtime it takes to repair it, since only a fool would operate such an expensive vehicle without having insurance that will pay for damages sustained during an in-flight emergency such as this landing gear failure.
@@44R0Ndin unless, of course, they are big enough that the economics work out better for eating the cost. Insurance has to be a bad deal on average, or nobody could afford to offer it.
@@44R0Ndin that’s fine, but these pilots are usually just independent employees - and there are a LOT of people out there looking for jobs like this. That is NOT a phone call you want to make to the aircraft owner.
So much overlap! 😮
WOW !
🎵You can have the town, why don't you take it. You're gonna make it after all. 🎵 😉 (sorry, MTM show/Minneapolis reference). Good it ended OK!
Good job 😅
"Just please let me die already boss" - Hawker.
You win the internet today IMO😂
The alt gear extension on the Hawker 800 can be tricky. You have to leave the manual pump handle "unstowed" after pumping it up. If the handle is "stowed" the system wont maintain pressure. It is possible the gear up landing "could" have been avoided. Just a guess.
We got to pump everything years ago in a 700 into Turks. Great fun!!
That doesn’t sound very intuitive, I could see how that could get overlooked
Agree 💯
Not to be outdone by the Pilatus earlier this week.
Kodo's to Minneapolis for not closing the entire airport.!
Always creeps me out when they say x amount of SOULS onboard.
They do that to not distinguish between crew and passengers, children and adults. They want a (hopefully alive) body count.
Watched it happen. VERY short role
Well done to all involved.
I do wonder how the tower could see the main gear were locked. Sure they're down, but locked? 🤔
They said "appear down and locked". It's not a final confirmation for the pilot, just what's observed. That plane would have flown right by the tower during the low approach. They also utilize binoculars up there.
Key word for controllers in this situation is always "appear" or "looks like", which this guy used. They can never confirm anything.
Why was there so much talking over the tower when they gave instructions? It happened more than once.
Given it wasnt doing the loud tone thing that happens when they actually get stepped on, I think this is an effect of the SDR recording a wide swath of frequencies, and not something the actual pilot or tower would be hearing.
possibly co-channel interference caused by an improperly tuned radio. that is to say, if you set the bandwidth too wide, you can bring in audio from other nearby channels
@@CKOD thank you.
Destination Airfield:
FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT - EDEN PRAIRIE, MN (KFCM)
Runway Information
Runway 28L
Dimensions: 5001 x 100 ft. / 1524 x 30 m
Surface: asphalt/grooved, in good condition
Weight bearing capacity:
Single wheel: 30.0
Double wheel: 60.0
Runway edge lights: high intensity
RUNWAY 28L
Latitude: 44-49.585958N
Longitude: 093-27.107618W
Elevation: 898.3 ft.
Traffic pattern: left
Runway heading: 278 magnetic, 281 true
Markings: nonprecision, in good condition
Visual slope indicator: 4-light PAPI on left (3.00 degrees glide path)
Runway end identifier lights: yes
Touchdown point: yes, no lights
Obstructions: none
@jimw1615
Flying Cloud is, or used to be 30 years ago when I was flying out of there, one of the busiest GA airports in the country. It butts up to the MSP class Bravo airspace to the East.
@@billstevens3796 Flying Cloud looked like a great airport when I did my Google Map recon to see where this pilot was heading. I learned to fly at Hayward Air Terminal, CA and we were near Oakland International Airport's approach to Runway 30. Pattern altitude was 650 feet for us to provide a vertical separation.
So, I'm a complete amateur at flying, but how would they land like that? I'd be interested to learn how pilots are taught to handle it. Amazing coordination and they were calm as can be.
Nose gear up landing is the same as a normal landing all the way thru touchdown with the mains, but instead of getting the nose gear on the ground in a hurry, you try to hold it off the ground with a nose-high attitude so that the aircraft uses the wings to help create drag to slow the aircraft down, and you keep doing that until there is no longer enough airflow over the tail surfaces to keep the nose off the ground. After that, continue using the rudder and/or differential braking to keep the aircraft on the runway center-line.
That's the theory behind it anyways.
I am not a pilot. But I have driven thousands upon thousands of hours in an automobile. I’ve never been in a major wreck (like 90% of us). I have, however had a wheel bearing cut loose on me, and lost a water pump once. Yesterday (I live in the U.S.) I followed a school bus home. He had a major water leak and was dropping antifreeze all along the road. He did not yet know it, but he was in serious trouble. When he dropped his students off, I informed him of his mechanical failure. Ooops! Not his fault. I can only imagine the extra stress the pilots are under. Me, I have wheels on the ground, and can easily pull off to the side of the road. Pilots and airplanes have small places to put wheels on the ground. Great job!
What you heard in this video from ATC and the pilot fire crew on the ground at Minneapolis was textbook on how it should be done amazing work by everyone great communication all around great job done
How can a TWR controller say that the main gear seems down AND LOCKED?! Why would he tell them something that he simply just can't know?
That's why the controller said that IT SEEMS. You just said it!
@VASAviation yes, it seems down. How could he possibly know that it seems locked? Completely impossible to judge from the ground - don't say it at all.
And that's why he says IT SEEMS. Because it LOOKS LIKE it's down and in proper position. He is not confirming it's neither down nor locked.
@@VASAviation he will go to jail judged with at least partial blame if god forbid something bad happens on a dodgy landing with a collapsing landing gear and that's a fact.
First lesson on TWR Control: never tell a pilot that his landing gear seems to be locked because you just don't know.
WTF is with pilots tip toeing around the issue on the radio?
Probably the same with them not knowing what the longest runway is in MSP and not knowing the Loc freq.!!!
@ I can understand that aspect of it when you’re in the middle of running a checklist and notifying passengers/cabin crew what’s going on.
Also, pumping a Hawker gear down is legit hard work.
@@gavinsingh4450MSP was not their original destination airport
@tanya5322 So?
@@gavinsingh4450You think a pilot should have every airport memorized?
Meow
Guaaaaaard
Meow
Furst.
Third
Hawker pilot...ex military?
The non standard, “here’s the flash”, “For 6NR”, and “sounds good, thanks” really bugs me regardless of if it’s an emergency or not.