This situation falls under "ground rules" that are specific to the field. The ground rule, agreed to before the game, states that a ball that hits this area and bounces so the fielder can't field it normally, the umpires are to call "dead ball" and place the runners where they would have advanced had the ball hit the back stop normally. The rule book rule is not considered in this case. Every field of play has it's own ground rules. Every time an umpire gets to the field, one of their first jobs is to assess the field of play and determine if any special "ground rules" should apply. On this field there is a ledge along the back drop, something that is not normal to a baseball field. What should happen if the ball hits that ledge and bounces straight up? The umpires determines this as something out of the norm and makes a "ground rule" which they discuss with both managers prior to the game. The stated rule in this particular case is that the ball will be called "dead" and runners placed where they would have advanced as best the umpire can determine. That is why in this situation the runners are placed at 2nd and 3rd. If the ball was declared "out of play" which is was not, the runners would be placed at 2nd and home per the rule book.
MJH-Baseball a ground rule can not contradict the rule book. If it is to be called a dead ball then runners should be treated as if the ball were out of play.
Alan Hess If it is not in the LL book then it reverts to OBR. The issue here is that no ground rule can circumvent a book rule. If the ground rule says that portion of the backstop is out of play, then it is just like the ball went into the dugout. You have to award 2 bases. Also the initial play has to come from an infielder. If the SS would have picked up the ball and made the throw, then it would have been 2 bases from time of pitch. Since the outfielder made the throw it is 2 bases from time of throw. R2 should have scored and BR should have been awarded 2b
As an umpire watching the play my initial reaction was 2 from the time of the throw. I would have given the batter runner third (in error per the replay as he was still short of first) and the runner who had obtained 2nd home.
Call correct. play it just like a ground rule double. which means the runners advance from their original positions not where they were when the ball went out of play. runner on second scores others left at third base and the batter on second base.
The key here is where were the runners at the Time of Throw (TOT)? Also remember that throws that go out-of-play, the base award is TWO BASES, NOT "1 plus 1," TWO bases. So, R2 (runner at second) would score. R1 (runner at first) had already touched second base at the TOT, he scores. The batter-runner had NOT touched first base at the TOT, so he is awarded second base.
Steve Dandy got it right. Two bases from the time of the throw. Batter gets second base. All other runners score. Don’t know anything about the special backstop ground rule other than it is either live if dead? If dead then 2 bases from the time of the throw. Good call Steve!
two bases from the release of the throw. batter runner gets second base. the runner that was on first had attained second base before the release so he would get home.
Adam King The rule is you get 2 bases from the last base you legally touched at the time the ball was thrown. R1 had already touched 2nd when the center fielder threw the ball. 2 bases from 2nd puts him at home plate to score. BR had not touched first yet when the ball was thrown, so he gets second. If he had touched first already, he should have been given third base.
I think given how close that ground rule occurs to home plate, I think it makes sense to include an interpretation of judging as if it had played off the backstop/net cleanly.
In general, "ground rules" do not supercede the book rules of that level of baseball. The ground rule may define when a thrown ball is out of play, but the book rule defines the consequences.
Understanding the ground rules, you can see that the runner on second base made it home before the ball hit the "out of play area." However the ball bounced from the top of the rubber (which as begins the metal fence), considering this was still out of play then the batter who was on first and the runner on second who were moving up before the ball hit the wall would continue to 3rd and 2nd. However, that would be according the MLB rules. Since this is the little league and the runners/batters are given two bases the runners on base would all score accept for the batter who would be placed on second base because he did not reach first before the throw. Like if you agree, or don't...... 😞
Alan Hess Understanding that and the ground rules the runners on 1st and 2nd should have been awarded home as the runner and second established before the throw, of course, as well as the runner on 1st who had established 3rd and should have been rewarded with home. The batter should be placed on first since he had not reached first and there fore not established second.
Since it is a thrown ball, the position of the runners at the time of the throw governs what bases they are awarded. The runner on second had already touched third and the runner on first had already touched second. The batter is automatically awarded Third on the two-base award and the other two score by rule.
As I saw the play... it's where the runners were at the time of the throw. It would have been runners that were on 1st and 2nd awarded home, batter-runner awarded 2nd as he hadn't quite made it to 1st yet (THATS WHY YOU HUSTLE)...However, no problem with the umpires call as he killed the play for safety reasons and awarded bases as he saw fit had the play continued without the ground rule infraction. Good job.
It may not be a matter how many bases. That's just what the announcer says, but he not's too clear either. The rule for a thrown ball is 2 bases from the TIME OF THROW, unless the throw is the first play by an infielder (ie, throwing to first vs going to 2nd, and then throwing to first to complete the dbl play) in which case it's TIME OF PITCH unless the batter makes it to first, and all other runners advance at least 1 base in which case it goes back to time of throw. At time of throw, the runner from first had just passed 2nd (he stops to see what the fielder is going to do with the ball), so he should get 2 bases from 2nd and score. The runner at 3rd also scores. The batter is just short of 1st base, so he should just get 2nd. But if the umpires didn't see where the runners were at time of throw, then this may be why the runners ended up where the were. We don't get to see the discussion if any in the clip, and it's still hard to believe that replay didn't correct this.
The ground rule needs to be revisited. There is no reason for declaring the backstop out of play...it IS a part of the field. If the reason has to do with the added security padding that can cause wild deviations of the ball's trajectory, then a dead ball should NOT advance any runner as technically the ball has NOT been thrown out of play.
You are right and the ball isn't out of play. The commentators say that, and the voice over says that, but the umpires and the ground rule does not. It's just a dead ball.
The "slanting part of the screen above the backstop" is obviously an out of play area. In this video we are talking about a "shelf like" area four feet high along the in play area behind home plate. I don't think you can call this ball "out of play" and apply those rules because there is no way that throw would normally end up going out of play. It should reflect back off the back stop, not bounce 50 feet straight up. Therefore, it is a logical "ground rule" for that field to prevent the offense from getting an unfair advantage due to a backstop issue rather than a player error.
two bases from the time of the THROW since the ball was from the outfield. Therefore batter/runner is awarded second, runner on first scores since he was past second at the time of the throw from center field. If ball was thrown from infield runners would be awarded two bases from the time of the PITCH.
The ball hitting the top of the backstop had no effect on the fielders or baserunners ability to play. Thus, the ump made the decision to let the it play out "as is", which is the right call. No reason to award a team an extra run that they didn't earn. Now had the ball gotten stuck, or been thrown over the net - then that's a different story.
The runner at first goes home and the runner that hit the ball goes to third cuz if you are in the middle of a play and a ball goesout of bounds in the dugout or over the foul ball fence the runners get to advance one base
You are right. In this instance, a penalty must be applied to the defense. The penalty is that each runner moves up one additional base. This would leave the batter-runner on third and the other runner awarded home as you said. The emphasis must be on the penalty given to the defense. BUT, the ball never lies...
As a LL umpire, the rule is clear, 2 bases from the position of the runners at the time of the throw. Batter-runner gets 2nd, all other runners score. Unless I missed something on this video, I'm a bit confused why none of the other umpires got this call right or why the offensive manager didn't question the call. Maybe they weren't as familiar with the rule.
They mentioned at the end that the only exception is a possible specific ground rule that states, “When the ball hits the backstop the umpire shall give the runners the bases they would’ve reached rather than applying the standard rule.” So it can be a ground rule. Not sure if that’s actually what happened here though.
I don’t think a local rule can supersede a book rule. I get that they can call it out of play, but I’m not sure it’s legal to also stipulate different penalties. Strange.
Video paused at 1:22 to comment. R2 scores, R1 scores because he reached second before the ball was thrown. BR is on second because he hadn't touched first yet when the ball was thrown.
Ball not out of play, but is dead for purposes of field. Unless explicitly states at location, multiple umpires, conference, since C in clear control, confirm loc of runners when time was called, last base of runners when time was called +1. Runner crossing home plate counts even if runner was "inches from" plate when ball hit backstop.
Two bases from start of play batter runner gets second all runners advance two bases. If you were on first you are now on third. Second and third base runners score. Unless a ground rule states otherwise.
we don't know if that final specific ground rule is the rule at williamsport. so we have to assume it isn't unless definitively told it is. runner scores, batter to 2nd.
The hitter and runner both took bases when the throw came in, so there should be runners on 2nd and 3rd and a run in. The result of the game was Kentucky 11 Texas 1, so it actually doesn't really have an actual impact on the game.
Since we don't know the ground rules on the backstop, runner placement cannot be known to us. I'm sure this was discussed in pre-game by the officiating staff. So I have to go with the staff's call.
The thrown ball was deemed "out of play" - at the time of the throw, runners were occupying 2nd , and 3rd. The rule is to award 2 bases at the time of the throw that caused the infraction. Where were the runners at that time? I would rule 2 runs score. The batter-runner goes to 2nd base. Game continues.
1st throw by and outfielder that goes out of play....runners advance 2 bases from time of the throw (both runners score, BR to 2nd) --- this is rather easy.
Having stopped the video at 2:11 (without seeing their verdict, and having the camera angle advantage), I think I would rule that the runner scores and the other runners are placed at first and second, based on where they were (roughly) when the ball went out of play. Maybe I would decide differently if I were on the ground. I have six years of umpire experience, but at the end of the day it's up to the umpires on the field.
Hearing the "1from the rubber, 2 from the field rule" is something I was unaware of. Seeing that the umpires allowed the run to score and kept the runners at 2nd and 3rd, I think that's an acceptable solution because that's where they were when the Plate Ump called "Dead Ball."
I think the run scores and a runner on third because both runners made it to second and third before the ball hit the backstop and thats the equivalent of an infielder throwing a ball away in which an extra base should be awarded so it should be a runner on third and the other runner should be awarded home.
if a ball hitting the net is considered out of play like being thrown into the stands or dugout its 2 bases each runner.. runner on first scores and batter gets 3rd
they should both get the extra base so the hitter would get 3rd because he was already heading towards 2nd before it wasn't playable anymore so automatically get 2nd, then since it's technically out of play (it's not out of play but same rules as out of play) they get the next base too
As a ground rule, BY RULE cannot change a playing rule... (ground rule could award MORE bases.. but not less), runner from 1st scores.. BR on second... because if that area is considered dead ball area, the rule is already in place.
The umpire ruled in accordance with the ground rule. But I think the ground rule should be changed to Play On unless the ball gets STUCK in the backstop or netting.
Batter runner to 2nd, runner that was on 1st to home. I don't like carve outs in ground rules that modify the placement of baserunners. This is a play where every member of the crew needs to be paying attention to every detail of their responsibility and thinking on the fly as to what they have.
Call is correct you get the base you are going to and 1 more. The runner on 2nd is heading back to 2nd at the time of the throw so he gets 2nd and 3rd. And batter gets 1st and 2nd because he had not reached 1st.
Per the MLB rule, the batter/runner should be awarded the base he was approaching at the time the ball was thrown by the outfielder, plus one additional base. Therefore, if the batter/runner was approaching 1st when the ball was thrown, he should end up on 2nd. If he'd passed 1st but was still approaching 2nd, he should end up on 3rd, and so forth.
The rule that I learned is you get two bases based on where the runner is when the ball is thrown, therefore two runs should have scored and the batter should be on third
According to when the ball was thrown, the runner went back to 2nd, so 1 base would put him at 3rd, the batter was not at 1st so he should not have been given 2nd.
From the time of the throw should change as no one knows at that time of the throw is good or not. It's like calling balls and strikes before the pitcher releases the ball.
Uh, to me what should be considered is whether or not the throw accidentally hit the fence because he just lost his grip on it or if he INTENTIONALLY threw it that high and far trying to kill the ball so no runs would score. Because it sure looks to me like he couldn't possibly have thrown it that high and hard accidentally. Not only that but what is the "top part of the rail" and how is THAT interpreted? Most ground rules pertain to balls hit into the field of play if they hit the ground and bounce over a low fence or hit the fence in the outfield and bounce back into play over the head of a player running or trying to make a play for it, etc. And I'm certain this ground rule would also apply to a ball tipped back and foul off the fence if it hit just right and high enough so that it bounced up even farther and ends up being in the air with the catcher waitng below to catch it with his back turned so that he has no idea what's going on once he catches the ball and turns toward the field of play. Because that IS a fly ball and a base runner with a lead off base could tag up, step off the base a little and as soon as the catcher has caught the ball but before he gets turned around and oriented tap the bag with a foot and steal a base if the catcher let his guard down when he thought the ball was dead.
They are allowed to go to whatever base they were headed for until the ball was actually out of play. If they had already proceeded past the previous base, first second and third in this case, then they advance to the next logical place. Yes the Run should have scored and the other Runners are at second and third as far as I can tell. I disagree about when the ball was pitched. That's assuming the ball somehow goes out of play from some incident near the plate. But that's only an assumption. I don't know where anyone got the idea that you should be allowed to advance two bases. The ball isn't playing until it isn't oh, that's an easy one to remember and rules should always be implemented in the simplest way possible. And this case oh, they were given the basis they would have acquired had the play just been and overthrow to the catcher. That is a logical and easily assumable end to this play.
Adam King nope, two bases from the time of throw. Runner was already on second so he gets two bases from that time. Sometime in little league they change the rules and make it from the time of pitch. But the rule is, from the time of the throw. Thats why the batter gets awarded second base. From the time of throw he gets first, then second. The runner was already at second from the time of throw so he gets third, then home.
Adam King if you are unsure what "batter is not yet a runner" means, look at it like this. If a pitched ball four goes out of bounce its a dead ball and batter gets only first because he wasnt a runner yet, however, if he bats a ground ball and the fielder throws it out of bounds, he gets second because its two bases from the time of throw. I hope this help bud.
My understanding is two bases from the time of the throw because it was from the outfield. First throw by an infielder that goes out of bounds is two bases from time of the pitch. If there is a second play from an infielder that goes out of bounds, it is also two bases from the time of the throw (example SS throws it to 1st and 1st then throws it to 3rd and it goes out of bounds. If a pitcher from the mound over throws a pick-off play, it is one base from time of the throw.
I’ve always interpreted the rule as the base the runner was going to plus 1 at the time of the errant throw. In my judgment, the runner had passed second base but clearly changed his momentum to retreat towards the second base bag when the center fielder released the throw. With the throw then going out of play, I believe correctly that the runner was awarded third base since it was clear to me that he was moving towards second base at the time of the throw.
You are a classic example of why so many people are woefully ignorant of the rules. You install your own interpretation of the rules instead of what is clearly defined by the rules. You probably think the hands are a part of the bat and that if a batted ball hits home plate it's a foul ball.
There cannot be a ground rule that contradicts an existing rule that covers a situation. Ground rules should only account for unusual or non-standard configurations of the ballpark, like a ball hitting the roof of a domed stadium or a tree that overhangs live ball territory. A ball thrown into dead ball territory IS covered in the rulebook and, therefore, there can be no ground rule that alters this rule. All runners should be award two bases based on the last base touched AT THE TIME OF THE THROW. That would mean that all runners score and the batter-runner would be awarded 2nd base (since, the batter-runner had not yet touched 1st by the time the center fielder released the ball.) If that area of the field is considered "dead ball" territory ... and a thrown ball goes into that area ... that is explicitly covered in the rulebook and there should be no ground rule for that situation that differs from the rulebook.
The runner made it into home before the ball hit the fence so he is safe. But the two runners that were still on base should move back to the base before because they both didn’t advance to the next base and make it before the ball hit the fence.
If that is up to the umpires and not the rule book the ground rule is set before game has started so i can not tell you where the runners should be unless i know the ground rules of the field. By the book only batter left on second
I would say that lead runner after the one that scored would also score. He would have been safe at third no matter where the ball went, and out of play is an additional base, no? So the hitter gets to second and two runs score? As an umpire myself, that's what I would say.
A preexisting agreement or rule by the facility or tournament host will supersede all others. So if that is why the ump place runners where he did that is absolutely correct. Have seen this many times with field defects, and safety concerns.
I've played baseball from the time I was 7-18. My opinion is follows: say the batter hit a infield ground ball the throw goes over first basemans head and into dead ball zone he is given only one base which is second hince my opion the two base runners advance one base hince the runners were advancing to next base when called out of play 1st runner gets third 2nd runner gets second...this is how always played it but it's in umpires hands not really a clear ruling either way.
2 bases should have been given. wild throws have consequences and if it's a "Deadball" then by rule they advance 2 bases and if there is a "grey area" then why not have your outfielders throw it in the crowd if it guarantees 1 bag instead of 2.
I thought 2 bases was for a ball out of play, not a dead ball? I don't know too much about obscure baseball rules though. Intuitively, a run and runners on 1st and 2nd seems right, since the most advanced runner got to home before the ball was declared dead.
The way I was taught, and ALL of the umps have to be aware of what takes place is the runners get one base from their last "established" as soon as the ball leaves the field of play. In my opinion runner from 1st had 3rd established and should have been awarded home. The batter in my opinion had only first established as soon as the ball hit the top rail and should have gotten second but that was an iffy one and he may have gotten third according to the discretion of the second base umpire.
First two runners score and the kid who hit the ball would be on third because if the ball was thrown wildly the second runner would've also scored and the kid who hit the ball would've advanced to third
I'm actually going with the idea that the ground rule probably limits advancement in this case, as it wouldn't make sense to have those runners advance.
I believe it is NOT when the centerfielder threw the ball but when the ball went out of bounds.... aka when the ball was ruled dead ball. At that time each individual runner should get the base they were running to plus 1 more base. So you can clearly see the runner is halfway to 3rd base should be awarded Home, and the batter is clearly about 10 yards off 1st base heading to 2nd base and should be awarded 3rd base. BUTTTTTT I don't like the rule that the top part of the basestop is considered out of bounds, but that's the rule and it was told to both teams before the game.
They should have moved the players 2 bases and the one who scored gets it because the ball does not hit the fence thing after he already scored. So 2 people would have scored and there would be a guy on 2nd base.
if you watch the ball and the runner that slide in to home should be safe because the play was called dead after he slide into home and the commentators are right about every runner being moved to the next base and the runner that scored should have been safe and Kentucky should have had three points after the wild pitch
All runners take the base they were running to when the ball went out of play, and the next base as well. I think. Maybe not. Actually I may not have any idea what I am talking about.
Can anyone explain to me why this called dead? The backstop is in play, shouldn't matter if it is netting or fence. If it is actually dead, the 2 runners score and the batter gets 2 as he had not yet reached 2nd base. If it should have been live, 1 run scores with runners on 2nd and 3rd
This is why umps need to pay close attention to where the runners are at any given moment. The commentators are correct but it's tough for the umps. It's nice to be a commentator with instant replay and time to think it over.
Actually the umpire has it right. It is two bases from when the ball was pitched. It works just like a ground rules double same thing when a player hits the ballot hits the ground first and then goes over the fence and then go over the fence. A runner at first could be half way home but since he was at first when the pitch was thrown he can only go as far as third. What about 90 feet and stealing. Is there an exception??? Yes of the runner somehow gets to second before the ball crosses the plate or hit. One more example the third out rule, the runner crosses home plate before the last out is made. Well the run only counts if the runner was first called safe. Point it is where the umpire determines when the dead ball occurred.
Runners on first and second should have scored and the batter should have been awarded second. I guess because the discretion aspect of the ground rule is why the runner on first was only awarded third.
Most commenters here keep saying that the ball went "out of play", so each runner should be awarded two bases. That is not the case here. Read the explanation from the publisher below the video. The ball hit a specific area of this field that the ground rules say results in a "dead ball", same as if the ball rested on this shelf/ledge and did not come down. The back-stop is in play, not out of bounds.. but the ledge/shelf is a ground rule resulting in a dead ball. Therefore, the umpire calls the play dead and awards the bases that he judges the runners would have reached safely if the ball hit the backstop cleanly. This is different than if the center fielder overthrew 3rd base and the ball sailed into the stands. In that case, the runner would be awarded two bases. Solution - get rid of that shelf!
So if they have the rule that they only advance as far as the umpire determines they would have, had the ball hit the backstop, then why even have the rule that play is dead when it hits the top of the backstop or netting since the ball stayed in play? I'd get it if it went into the crowd, but if it stays in play, why stop the play then determine the outcome for if the ball would have stayed in play?
On the fields that I play on (that generally don't have sidewalks) if there is an overthrow they get the next base for free so if the rules here apply to the rules of the little league World Series game then the runner who was on first should go to home and the batter should go to third
it should be two from the time of the throw, the guy on second was always going to score, the question is what bases did the guy on first have at the time of the throw, and what base did the batter runner get at the time of the throw. In most cases, especially in the big leagues, you have a runner on 3rd and a runner on 2nd, but as the bases are far closer together in little league, and you see the runner from second standing past 2nd the base at the time of the throw. They probably should have scored the runner from first and put the batter runner on 2nd base if they were being cautious.
In a 1-umpire scenario and given there are differences between IF/OF locations, a good umpire will apply base+1 or +2 i.e. ball is air-mailed OOP over backstop always +2 (even if throw made from an IF, discourages "punting" or throwing ball in stands later if rules call only +1 for balls thrown over. Ball rolling into dugout, "Dead Ball" "Out of Play" quick scan of runners (again you are only ump) and some wiggle and even polling other fielders to ensure a batter barely reaching 1st base isn't awarded home (especially on rollers into dugouts).
@@adamtparker6515 This appears to be a two man system though, and with the ball hit center field the plate up had a good look at where the runner was at the time of the throw. Is it only one base in little league for this situation? Is this a ground rules type situation? I've never umpired little league so I have no idea if they award bases differently.
@@JosephJamesScott discretion required and HP Ump in good position and saw ball hit backstop "in play" and then rolled up onto out of play screen. Can't rely on straight throw+2 or throw +1 interpretation, and outcome on field is a little conservative but ok, with emphasis on conference as throw was made where IF/OF criss crossed (use em if you got em). Coaches tend to be less irate regardless of outcome when they see two great umps reason/discussion.
well if I see the rule book then I dont think that they should have stopped, if it hits the netting or goes threw the netting. so the runners are on the recommended bases already but I dont think that in my opinion he should have called it a dead ball
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Runner from 1st should have been awarded home. The BR should have been awarded 2nd since he had not reached first
This situation falls under "ground rules" that are specific to the field. The ground rule, agreed to before the game, states that a ball that hits this area and bounces so the fielder can't field it normally, the umpires are to call "dead ball" and place the runners where they would have advanced had the ball hit the back stop normally.
The rule book rule is not considered in this case. Every field of play has it's own ground rules. Every time an umpire gets to the field, one of their first jobs is to assess the field of play and determine if any special "ground rules" should apply. On this field there is a ledge along the back drop, something that is not normal to a baseball field. What should happen if the ball hits that ledge and bounces straight up? The umpires determines this as something out of the norm and makes a "ground rule" which they discuss with both managers prior to the game. The stated rule in this particular case is that the ball will be called "dead" and runners placed where they would have advanced as best the umpire can determine. That is why in this situation the runners are placed at 2nd and 3rd. If the ball was declared "out of play" which is was not, the runners would be placed at 2nd and home per the rule book.
MJH-Baseball a ground rule can not contradict the rule book. If it is to be called a dead ball then runners should be treated as if the ball were out of play.
Alan Hess look up 5.06(b)(4)(G)
MJH-Baseball You are incorrect.
Alan Hess If it is not in the LL book then it reverts to OBR. The issue here is that no ground rule can circumvent a book rule. If the ground rule says that portion of the backstop is out of play, then it is just like the ball went into the dugout. You have to award 2 bases. Also the initial play has to come from an infielder. If the SS would have picked up the ball and made the throw, then it would have been 2 bases from time of pitch. Since the outfielder made the throw it is 2 bases from time of throw. R2 should have scored and BR should have been awarded 2b
As an umpire watching the play my initial reaction was 2 from the time of the throw. I would have given the batter runner third (in error per the replay as he was still short of first) and the runner who had obtained 2nd home.
I would have done the same thing. I would have done differently would be BR I would have put them on 2nd. Everyone else would have been home imho.
That would be 3 bases, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The batter runner gets 2nd bc he did not reach 1st before the throw. Thus he gets 1st + 2nd (2 bases).
Call correct. play it just like a ground rule double. which means the runners advance from their original positions not where they were when the ball went out of play. runner on second scores others left at third base and the batter on second base.
The key here is where were the runners at the Time of Throw (TOT)?
Also remember that throws that go out-of-play, the base award is TWO BASES, NOT "1 plus 1," TWO bases.
So, R2 (runner at second) would score.
R1 (runner at first) had already touched second base at the TOT, he scores.
The batter-runner had NOT touched first base at the TOT, so he is awarded second base.
Steve Dandy got it right. Two bases from the time of the throw. Batter gets second base. All other runners score. Don’t know anything about the special backstop ground rule other than it is either live if dead? If dead then 2 bases from the time of the throw. Good call Steve!
two bases from the release of the throw. batter runner gets second base. the runner that was on first had attained second base before the release so he would get home.
I love this channel. Recently discovered it and have watched nearly every video twice! Keep up the good work MJH-Baseball
2 bases from where they were when the ball was thrown. R2 and R1 score, BR on 2nd because he hadn't touched first when the ball was thrown.
Adam King The rule is you get 2 bases from the last base you legally touched at the time the ball was thrown. R1 had already touched 2nd when the center fielder threw the ball. 2 bases from 2nd puts him at home plate to score. BR had not touched first yet when the ball was thrown, so he gets second. If he had touched first already, he should have been given third base.
I think given how close that ground rule occurs to home plate, I think it makes sense to include an interpretation of judging as if it had played off the backstop/net cleanly.
In general, "ground rules" do not supercede the book rules of that level of baseball. The ground rule may define when a thrown ball is out of play, but the book rule defines the consequences.
Well explained, surprised it wasn't looked at further or discussed amongst the umpires for clarification.
Understanding the ground rules, you can see that the runner on second base made it home before the ball hit the "out of play area." However the ball bounced from the top of the rubber (which as begins the metal fence), considering this was still out of play then the batter who was on first and the runner on second who were moving up before the ball hit the wall would continue to 3rd and 2nd. However, that would be according the MLB rules. Since this is the little league and the runners/batters are given two bases the runners on base would all score accept for the batter who would be placed on second base because he did not reach first before the throw. Like if you agree, or don't...... 😞
Alan Hess Understanding that and the ground rules the runners on 1st and 2nd should have been awarded home as the runner and second established before the throw, of course, as well as the runner on 1st who had established 3rd and should have been rewarded with home. The batter should be placed on first since he had not reached first and there fore not established second.
Since it is a thrown ball, the position of the runners at the time of the throw governs what bases they are awarded. The runner on second had already touched third and the runner on first had already touched second. The batter is automatically awarded Third on the two-base award and the other two score by rule.
As I saw the play... it's where the runners were at the time of the throw. It would have been runners that were on 1st and 2nd awarded home, batter-runner awarded 2nd as he hadn't quite made it to 1st yet (THATS WHY YOU HUSTLE)...However, no problem with the umpires call as he killed the play for safety reasons and awarded bases as he saw fit had the play continued without the ground rule infraction. Good job.
I believe you are correct, but if it was the first play by an infielder and not an outfielder, then it is two bases from the time of the pitch.
It may not be a matter how many bases. That's just what the announcer says, but he not's too clear either. The rule for a thrown ball is 2 bases from the TIME OF THROW, unless the throw is the first play by an infielder (ie, throwing to first vs going to 2nd, and then throwing to first to complete the dbl play) in which case it's TIME OF PITCH unless the batter makes it to first, and all other runners advance at least 1 base in which case it goes back to time of throw. At time of throw, the runner from first had just passed 2nd (he stops to see what the fielder is going to do with the ball), so he should get 2 bases from 2nd and score. The runner at 3rd also scores. The batter is just short of 1st base, so he should just get 2nd. But if the umpires didn't see where the runners were at time of throw, then this may be why the runners ended up where the were. We don't get to see the discussion if any in the clip, and it's still hard to believe that replay didn't correct this.
The ground rule needs to be revisited. There is no reason for declaring the backstop out of play...it IS a part of the field. If the reason has to do with the added security padding that can cause wild deviations of the ball's trajectory, then a dead ball should NOT advance any runner as technically the ball has NOT been thrown out of play.
You are right and the ball isn't out of play. The commentators say that, and the voice over says that, but the umpires and the ground rule does not. It's just a dead ball.
MJH-Baseball If the ground rules, or even the umpires, say that ball went out of play, then the awards must, by rule, be two bases.
The "slanting part of the screen above the backstop" is obviously an out of play area. In this video we are talking about a "shelf like" area four feet high along the in play area behind home plate. I don't think you can call this ball "out of play" and apply those rules because there is no way that throw would normally end up going out of play. It should reflect back off the back stop, not bounce 50 feet straight up. Therefore, it is a logical "ground rule" for that field to prevent the offense from getting an unfair advantage due to a backstop issue rather than a player error.
The ground rules and umpires never say this ball went out of play. Only the commentator and voice over to the video make mention of "out of play."
Then why did the plate umpire kill the play?
two bases from the time of the THROW since the ball was from the outfield. Therefore batter/runner is awarded second, runner on first scores since he was past second at the time of the throw from center field. If ball was thrown from infield runners would be awarded two bases from the time of the PITCH.
The ball hitting the top of the backstop had no effect on the fielders or baserunners ability to play. Thus, the ump made the decision to let the it play out "as is", which is the right call. No reason to award a team an extra run that they didn't earn. Now had the ball gotten stuck, or been thrown over the net - then that's a different story.
The runner at first goes home and the runner that hit the ball goes to third cuz if you are in the middle of a play and a ball goesout of bounds in the dugout or over the foul ball fence the runners get to advance one base
You are right. In this instance, a penalty must be applied to the defense. The penalty is that each runner moves up one additional base. This would leave the batter-runner on third and the other runner awarded home as you said. The emphasis must be on the penalty given to the defense. BUT, the ball never lies...
As a LL umpire, the rule is clear, 2 bases from the position of the runners at the time of the throw. Batter-runner gets 2nd, all other runners score. Unless I missed something on this video, I'm a bit confused why none of the other umpires got this call right or why the offensive manager didn't question the call. Maybe they weren't as familiar with the rule.
They mentioned at the end that the only exception is a possible specific ground rule that states, “When the ball hits the backstop the umpire shall give the runners the bases they would’ve reached rather than applying the standard rule.” So it can be a ground rule. Not sure if that’s actually what happened here though.
@@Libertarian_Neighbor Good point!
I don’t think a local rule can supersede a book rule. I get that they can call it out of play, but I’m not sure it’s legal to also stipulate different penalties. Strange.
Video paused at 1:22 to comment. R2 scores, R1 scores because he reached second before the ball was thrown. BR is on second because he hadn't touched first yet when the ball was thrown.
Two bases from base occupied at time of throw from an outfielder. R2 Home. R1 Home (past 2nd at TOT); BR 2nd - not reached 1B by TOT. Simple!!
Ball not out of play, but is dead for purposes of field. Unless explicitly states at location, multiple umpires, conference, since C in clear control, confirm loc of runners when time was called, last base of runners when time was called +1. Runner crossing home plate counts even if runner was "inches from" plate when ball hit backstop.
The runner on 1st should have gotten home, because you get two bases from the last one you touched when the ball was thrown.
Run scored and since a dead ball the runners stop at 2nd and 3rd. The ball is dead so runners can not advance as they can not be thrown out
Two bases from start of play batter runner gets second all runners advance two bases. If you were on first you are now on third. Second and third base runners score.
Unless a ground rule states otherwise.
we don't know if that final specific ground rule is the rule at williamsport. so we have to assume it isn't unless definitively told it is. runner scores, batter to 2nd.
It appears that they went with 2 bases from the time of the pitch because the the throw out of play was the 1st play from the field.
The hitter and runner both took bases when the throw came in, so there should be runners on 2nd and 3rd and a run in. The result of the game was Kentucky 11 Texas 1, so it actually doesn't really have an actual impact on the game.
Since we don't know the ground rules on the backstop, runner placement cannot be known to us. I'm sure this was discussed in pre-game by the officiating staff. So I have to go with the staff's call.
I think it was the right call. I’m no genius on baseball but regardless of the “correct” ruling I think the way it was handled was completely fair
The thrown ball was deemed "out of play" - at the time of the throw, runners were occupying 2nd , and 3rd. The rule is to award 2 bases at the time of the throw that caused the infraction. Where were the runners at that time? I would rule 2 runs score. The batter-runner goes to 2nd base. Game continues.
If you are running towards 2nd base when the ball goes out of play ( just an example) you get third base.
First inning of a little league game. They were playing on a mini fiel and he throws the ball thirty feet over.
On an out of play ball (in NCHSBA anyways) you are awarded the base you were running to plus the next base
It is ruled a ground rule double. Therefore now there should be a runner on second and third and 1 run scores
1st throw by and outfielder that goes out of play....runners advance 2 bases from time of the throw (both runners score, BR to 2nd) --- this is rather easy.
Having stopped the video at 2:11 (without seeing their verdict, and having the camera angle advantage), I think I would rule that the runner scores and the other runners are placed at first and second, based on where they were (roughly) when the ball went out of play. Maybe I would decide differently if I were on the ground. I have six years of umpire experience, but at the end of the day it's up to the umpires on the field.
Hearing the "1from the rubber, 2 from the field rule" is something I was unaware of. Seeing that the umpires allowed the run to score and kept the runners at 2nd and 3rd, I think that's an acceptable solution because that's where they were when the Plate Ump called "Dead Ball."
I think the run scores and a runner on third because both runners made it to second and third before the ball hit the backstop and thats the equivalent of an infielder throwing a ball away in which an extra base should be awarded so it should be a runner on third and the other runner should be awarded home.
if a ball hitting the net is considered out of play like being thrown into the stands or dugout its 2 bases each runner.. runner on first scores and batter gets 3rd
I think that is 2 bases from where they were, the runner was at 2nd when the throw did that, so I think they scored
they should both get the extra base so the hitter would get 3rd because he was already heading towards 2nd before it wasn't playable anymore so automatically get 2nd, then since it's technically out of play (it's not out of play but same rules as out of play) they get the next base too
As a ground rule, BY RULE cannot change a playing rule... (ground rule could award MORE bases.. but not less), runner from 1st scores.. BR on second... because if that area is considered dead ball area, the rule is already in place.
The umpire ruled in accordance with the ground rule. But I think the ground rule should be changed to Play On unless the ball gets STUCK in the backstop or netting.
Batter runner to 2nd, runner that was on 1st to home. I don't like carve outs in ground rules that modify the placement of baserunners. This is a play where every member of the crew needs to be paying attention to every detail of their responsibility and thinking on the fly as to what they have.
Call is correct you get the base you are going to and 1 more. The runner on 2nd is heading back to 2nd at the time of the throw so he gets 2nd and 3rd. And batter gets 1st and 2nd because he had not reached 1st.
Per the MLB rule, the batter/runner should be awarded the base he was approaching at the time the ball was thrown by the outfielder, plus one additional base. Therefore, if the batter/runner was approaching 1st when the ball was thrown, he should end up on 2nd. If he'd passed 1st but was still approaching 2nd, he should end up on 3rd, and so forth.
The little league rule I play with is that if the ball is thrown out of play the runner gets the base they were going to and one extra.
The runner who scored is safe and the 2 other runners are at 1st and 2nd not 2nd and 3rd because the ball was dead when they both got to 2nd and 3rd
The rule that I learned is you get two bases based on where the runner is when the ball is thrown, therefore two runs should have scored and the batter should be on third
It was a fly ball and you are suppose to tag up when the ball is still in the air
According to when the ball was thrown, the runner went back to 2nd, so 1 base would put him at 3rd, the batter was not at 1st so he should not have been given 2nd.
R1 was at second at the time of the throw, so his award was supposed to be home.
ground rule double and the runners are placed according to what the play should have ended up being.
well considering it’s 1 bag from the mound 2 from field the 2nd bass runner should score and the 1st base runner goes to 3rd and 3rd base scores
It's the old 1+1 rule. The base you were going to when it was called dead and then the next base
Runner from 1st gets Home and Batter is on Third. You Get Two bases from ball thrown from outfield.
From the time of the throw should change as no one knows at that time of the throw is good or not. It's like calling balls and strikes before the pitcher releases the ball.
Uh, to me what should be considered is whether or not the throw accidentally hit the fence because he just lost his grip on it or if he INTENTIONALLY threw it that high and far trying to kill the ball so no runs would score. Because it sure looks to me like he couldn't possibly have thrown it that high and hard accidentally. Not only that but what is the "top part of the rail" and how is THAT interpreted? Most ground rules pertain to balls hit into the field of play if they hit the ground and bounce over a low fence or hit the fence in the outfield and bounce back into play over the head of a player running or trying to make a play for it, etc. And I'm certain this ground rule would also apply to a ball tipped back and foul off the fence if it hit just right and high enough so that it bounced up even farther and ends up being in the air with the catcher waitng below to catch it with his back turned so that he has no idea what's going on once he catches the ball and turns toward the field of play. Because that IS a fly ball and a base runner with a lead off base could tag up, step off the base a little and as soon as the catcher has caught the ball but before he gets turned around and oriented tap the bag with a foot and steal a base if the catcher let his guard down when he thought the ball was dead.
Should be 2 runs in and runner at 3rd. Now I'll finish the video to see what the ruling is.
They are allowed to go to whatever base they were headed for until the ball was actually out of play. If they had already proceeded past the previous base, first second and third in this case, then they advance to the next logical place. Yes the Run should have scored and the other Runners are at second and third as far as I can tell.
I disagree about when the ball was pitched. That's assuming the ball somehow goes out of play from some incident near the plate. But that's only an assumption. I don't know where anyone got the idea that you should be allowed to advance two bases. The ball isn't playing until it isn't oh, that's an easy one to remember and rules should always be implemented in the simplest way possible. And this case oh, they were given the basis they would have acquired had the play just been and overthrow to the catcher. That is a logical and easily assumable end to this play.
I would think of it as a ground rule double sorta thing where all the runners move up and the batter goes to second.
My dad met the parents of the centerfielder on that kentucky team when we were at the llws
Way overthinking it. Two bases from the time of throw. Batter to second, since runner on first was on second at the time of throw, he gets home.
Adam King nope, two bases from the time of throw. Runner was already on second so he gets two bases from that time. Sometime in little league they change the rules and make it from the time of pitch. But the rule is, from the time of the throw. Thats why the batter gets awarded second base. From the time of throw he gets first, then second. The runner was already at second from the time of throw so he gets third, then home.
Adam King if you are unsure what "batter is not yet a runner" means, look at it like this. If a pitched ball four goes out of bounce its a dead ball and batter gets only first because he wasnt a runner yet, however, if he bats a ground ball and the fielder throws it out of bounds, he gets second because its two bases from the time of throw. I hope this help bud.
My understanding is two bases from the time of the throw because it was from the outfield. First throw by an infielder that goes out of bounds is two bases from time of the pitch. If there is a second play from an infielder that goes out of bounds, it is also two bases from the time of the throw (example SS throws it to 1st and 1st then throws it to 3rd and it goes out of bounds. If a pitcher from the mound over throws a pick-off play, it is one base from time of the throw.
I’ve always interpreted the rule as the base the runner was going to plus 1 at the time of the errant throw. In my judgment, the runner had passed second base but clearly changed his momentum to retreat towards the second base bag when the center fielder released the throw. With the throw then going out of play, I believe correctly that the runner was awarded third base since it was clear to me that he was moving towards second base at the time of the throw.
How many coaches have you had to toss based on that interpretation?
You are a classic example of why so many people are woefully ignorant of the rules. You install your own interpretation of the rules instead of what is clearly defined by the rules. You probably think the hands are a part of the bat and that if a batted ball hits home plate it's a foul ball.
There cannot be a ground rule that contradicts an existing rule that covers a situation. Ground rules should only account for unusual or non-standard configurations of the ballpark, like a ball hitting the roof of a domed stadium or a tree that overhangs live ball territory. A ball thrown into dead ball territory IS covered in the rulebook and, therefore, there can be no ground rule that alters this rule. All runners should be award two bases based on the last base touched AT THE TIME OF THE THROW. That would mean that all runners score and the batter-runner would be awarded 2nd base (since, the batter-runner had not yet touched 1st by the time the center fielder released the ball.)
If that area of the field is considered "dead ball" territory ... and a thrown ball goes into that area ... that is explicitly covered in the rulebook and there should be no ground rule for that situation that differs from the rulebook.
The runner made it into home before the ball hit the fence so he is safe. But the two runners that were still on base should move back to the base before because they both didn’t advance to the next base and make it before the ball hit the fence.
If that is up to the umpires and not the rule book the ground rule is set before game has started so i can not tell you where the runners should be unless i know the ground rules of the field. By the book only batter left on second
It is a throw from an outfielder 2 bases should be given from time of throw if from an infielder and is the first play 1base would be given
I would say that lead runner after the one that scored would also score. He would have been safe at third no matter where the ball went, and out of play is an additional base, no? So the hitter gets to second and two runs score? As an umpire myself, that's what I would say.
A preexisting agreement or rule by the facility or tournament host will supersede all others. So if that is why the ump place runners where he did that is absolutely correct. Have seen this many times with field defects, and safety concerns.
I've played baseball from the time I was 7-18. My opinion is follows: say the batter hit a infield ground ball the throw goes over first basemans head and into dead ball zone he is given only one base which is second hince my opion the two base runners advance one base hince the runners were advancing to next base when called out of play 1st runner gets third 2nd runner gets second...this is how always played it but it's in umpires hands not really a clear ruling either way.
2 bases should have been given. wild throws have consequences and if it's a "Deadball" then by rule they advance 2 bases and if there is a "grey area" then why not have your outfielders throw it in the crowd if it guarantees 1 bag instead of 2.
I thought 2 bases was for a ball out of play, not a dead ball? I don't know too much about obscure baseball rules though. Intuitively, a run and runners on 1st and 2nd seems right, since the most advanced runner got to home before the ball was declared dead.
It should be ruled as a ground rule double so the player batting advances to second and the runner on first should of scored
I think the runner is safe at home because he left before the ball was even thrown. But the other runners have to go back to 1st and 2nd
The way I was taught, and ALL of the umps have to be aware of what takes place is the runners get one base from their last "established" as soon as the ball leaves the field of play.
In my opinion runner from 1st had 3rd established and should have been awarded home. The batter in my opinion had only first established as soon as the ball hit the top rail and should have gotten second but that was an iffy one and he may have gotten third according to the discretion of the second base umpire.
The runner who made it home stays at home batter stays at bat and the other 2 are at 1 and 2
man on 2nd and 3rd because deadball is an extra base so man on 1st goes to 3rd and at bat 2nd
2 bases from the time of the throw.....movin' on
First two runners score and the kid who hit the ball would be on third because if the ball was thrown wildly the second runner would've also scored and the kid who hit the ball would've advanced to third
hitter to second, and the other two home
I'm actually going with the idea that the ground rule probably limits advancement in this case, as it wouldn't make sense to have those runners advance.
runner at 2, runner at 3, 1 home
Awards are time of throw, 2 bases. Batter/runner 2nd,. R1 home.
I believe it is NOT when the centerfielder threw the ball but when the ball went out of bounds.... aka when the ball was ruled dead ball. At that time each individual runner should get the base they were running to plus 1 more base. So you can clearly see the runner is halfway to 3rd base should be awarded Home, and the batter is clearly about 10 yards off 1st base heading to 2nd base and should be awarded 3rd base. BUTTTTTT I don't like the rule that the top part of the basestop is considered out of bounds, but that's the rule and it was told to both teams before the game.
They should have moved the players 2 bases and the one who scored gets it because the ball does not hit the fence thing after he already scored. So 2 people would have scored and there would be a guy on 2nd base.
if you watch the ball and the runner that slide in to home should be safe because the play was called dead after he slide into home and the commentators are right about every runner being moved to the next base and the runner that scored should have been safe and Kentucky should have had three points after the wild pitch
umpire got it right you're award the next base or the base you're advancing to runners on second and third since the runner hadn't taken third yet
All runners take the base they were running to when the ball went out of play, and the next base as well. I think. Maybe not. Actually I may not have any idea what I am talking about.
Can anyone explain to me why this called dead? The backstop is in play, shouldn't matter if it is netting or fence. If it is actually dead, the 2 runners score and the batter gets 2 as he had not yet reached 2nd base. If it should have been live, 1 run scores with runners on 2nd and 3rd
This is why umps need to pay close attention to where the runners are at any given moment. The commentators are correct but it's tough for the umps. It's nice to be a commentator with instant replay and time to think it over.
Actually the umpire has it right. It is two bases from when the ball was pitched. It works just like a ground rules double same thing when a player hits the ballot hits the ground first and then goes over the fence and then go over the fence. A runner at first could be half way home but since he was at first when the pitch was thrown he can only go as far as third. What about 90 feet and stealing. Is there an exception??? Yes of the runner somehow gets to second before the ball crosses the plate or hit. One more example the third out rule, the runner crosses home plate before the last out is made. Well the run only counts if the runner was first called safe. Point it is where the umpire determines when the dead ball occurred.
run counts batter stays at first and the runner on second goes to third so runners on the corners 2 outs
score, and 2nd base. the kid got home before the ball was dead, but the kid from 2nd to 3rd hasn't reached 3rd base. That's my opinion
Play was still live because to ball did NOT go over the fence so play is still live.
You know why is because when you throw the ball to the net it is out of play
Runners on first and second should have scored and the batter should have been awarded second. I guess because the discretion aspect of the ground rule is why the runner on first was only awarded third.
That's a tough one, scoring run tagged home plate before ball hit wall
the rule is that you get the base you are going to plus one
Most commenters here keep saying that the ball went "out of play", so each runner should be awarded two bases. That is not the case here. Read the explanation from the publisher below the video. The ball hit a specific area of this field that the ground rules say results in a "dead ball", same as if the ball rested on this shelf/ledge and did not come down. The back-stop is in play, not out of bounds.. but the ledge/shelf is a ground rule resulting in a dead ball. Therefore, the umpire calls the play dead and awards the bases that he judges the runners would have reached safely if the ball hit the backstop cleanly. This is different than if the center fielder overthrew 3rd base and the ball sailed into the stands. In that case, the runner would be awarded two bases. Solution - get rid of that shelf!
So if they have the rule that they only advance as far as the umpire determines they would have, had the ball hit the backstop, then why even have the rule that play is dead when it hits the top of the backstop or netting since the ball stayed in play? I'd get it if it went into the crowd, but if it stays in play, why stop the play then determine the outcome for if the ball would have stayed in play?
On the fields that I play on (that generally don't have sidewalks) if there is an overthrow they get the next base for free so if the rules here apply to the rules of the little league World Series game then the runner who was on first should go to home and the batter should go to third
it should be two from the time of the throw, the guy on second was always going to score, the question is what bases did the guy on first have at the time of the throw, and what base did the batter runner get at the time of the throw. In most cases, especially in the big leagues, you have a runner on 3rd and a runner on 2nd, but as the bases are far closer together in little league, and you see the runner from second standing past 2nd the base at the time of the throw. They probably should have scored the runner from first and put the batter runner on 2nd base if they were being cautious.
In a 1-umpire scenario and given there are differences between IF/OF locations, a good umpire will apply base+1 or +2 i.e. ball is air-mailed OOP over backstop always +2 (even if throw made from an IF, discourages "punting" or throwing ball in stands later if rules call only +1 for balls thrown over. Ball rolling into dugout, "Dead Ball" "Out of Play" quick scan of runners (again you are only ump) and some wiggle and even polling other fielders to ensure a batter barely reaching 1st base isn't awarded home (especially on rollers into dugouts).
@@adamtparker6515 This appears to be a two man system though, and with the ball hit center field the plate up had a good look at where the runner was at the time of the throw. Is it only one base in little league for this situation? Is this a ground rules type situation? I've never umpired little league so I have no idea if they award bases differently.
@@JosephJamesScott discretion required and HP Ump in good position and saw ball hit backstop "in play" and then rolled up onto out of play screen. Can't rely on straight throw+2 or throw +1 interpretation, and outcome on field is a little conservative but ok, with emphasis on conference as throw was made where IF/OF criss crossed (use em if you got em). Coaches tend to be less irate regardless of outcome when they see two great umps reason/discussion.
well if I see the rule book then I dont think that they should have stopped, if it hits the netting or goes threw the netting. so the runners are on the recommended bases already but I dont think that in my opinion he should have called it a dead ball