@@fredfreddy7220 nobody cares how he spends his money, that's not the argument. He's saying that shroud has the luxury to spend the money on pay to win when the average person doesn't
Yup, the marketing dollars to get streamers to play games is leading to the games downfall. Streamers are bringing in hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars collectively playing games for at max 2-3 weeks and then moving to the next cash cow. Even if a game is good you can’t keep the player base if they came from streamers and they’ve moved on.
Ehhh, Shroud wouldn't have to be paid to play Throne, guy genuinely enjoys MMOs. If he stops playing in two weeks, it's because the game didn't have enough content to hold a player playing 12 hours a day.
@@DameworthI do get your point but using "moving on to another game after a couple weeks" as an insult is kind of stupid. Do you expect them to play the same game forever? Fair enough for mmorpg streamers but most games aren't meant to be played forever. Hence why live service games are tanking.
Believe it or not, Koreans think the game is not enough p2w. There's this gaming culture from true hardcore gamers of people that work really hard (at their job) and just throw money at their favorite game.
@@kubasniak Supporting game devs equals mental issues? Spending money you earned through hard work the way you want equals mental issues? Like what the f is this logic?😂
lol, the people that call games something there not are even more wild. Haven't spent a single dime besides pre ordering, max level almost all purple gear, gear getting leveled smoothly. Not a single dime spent in shop or auction house. The only mental gymnastics is ya'll spreading false info when you haven't even played the god damn game.
@@hamsterrwrld6767 we dont give a fk that you spent all of your living hours on that shjt game since it released, we're talking about the experience of the MASSES, how they are affected by the fact that this game is p2w and others WILL have advantage over you no matter what way you try looking. Not everyone has 24 hours a day to spend on games.
This goofball is so out of touch on what gamers like and dislike. Streamers like him, who mind you are paid to play the game for promotion, ruin the gaming experiences for people who enjoy gaming.
hes a millionaire he doesnt care, not only that but he actually is making money playing this game through streams....dont trust streamer opinions ... they are always bad or bought out.
This game has a soft cap. People that are spending now will spend more when tier 2 comes out early next year. You can literally grind and earn lucent easily. I’ve made 2k lucent without decent RNG. I know others making 10k and up. The whales aren’t getting that much advantage in pvp.
@@slashgeegee oh my fucking god. you people vote?? SO sick of seeing this stupid, smooth brain take. YEAH HES RICH WE KNOW MTX DOESNT AFFECT FUCKING RICH PEOPLE BUT IT DOES EFFECT THE GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME OH MY GOD
They can easily make all the money they need with paid cosmetics and utilities that don't directly affect character power. (like extra storage space, inventory space, etc) The problem is they want to maximize profits. Usually, the more you maximize profits in the short term, the more you damage the long term outlook.
Well technically, they dont sell any direct power. There r like cosmetic packages which gives u some lucent but not that much tbh. The only p2w model in this game right now in the west is the auction house n it is EXACTLY the same in p2w lvl as wow. I dont understand why he would say AH in wow is somehow different. U can buy the currency with real money and buy things in AH. Both r exactly the same The only difference is u play this for free and wow u need subscription. Now TL in KR does have subscription based buff that gives u number of comfort features which is basically p2w because u can access storage anywhere and that is basically easier farm and thus p2w. What im trying to say is ppl r making this game out to be like those asian mobile games where u can infinitely swipe for cash gears and direct powerups with like 50 packages in cash shopmwith 10 cash currencies but in reality its not that different from other mmosmout there with RMT and AH.
@@Prudaeng "the only p2w model in this game is the auction house" if u use ur brain u realize u JUST said another p2w feature about the game the sentence before 😭Also RMT is smth almost impossible to battle and it's NOT the game's fault for being a thing unless they dont try to do anything about it. No one is saying it's a shitty mobile game even tho it looks like one, P2W is P2W no matter if you're on shroud's "p2w spectrum", it's a spectrum sure but P2W is P2W No matter how you look at it. are you gonna say someone isnt autistic if they are super low on the spectrum? lmao
@@Angelvanberghen difference between u and me is I think there is a degree of P2W that ranges from acceptable to unacceptable. U seem to be any sort of pay for comfort, power is p2w trash. So i assume games like wow and gw2 r all p2w trash to you because they have rmt and ah?
The group that no life's games for 3-4 weeks then moves on to another game is the main reason games die. The actual player base that will continuously grinds a game don't want p2w things in it that make them feel stupid for trying to grind when you can just pay for power.
I'm starting to understand more and more why I've seen social descent about Shroud. If you, a very fortunate and wealthy broadcaster, wants P2W then go play MMOs that already have it instead of trying to push for developers to fully embrace it in currently tamed and future MMOs. Don't be more of a blight than you already are upon MMO communities.
7:08 no sorry youre wrong shroud. people dont like pay to win because the idea of someone spending money to get an in game advantage over other players isn't fun in any way shape form or fashion. building the game around p2w just makes it worse. If youll notice gamers like it when the game is seperate from the profit engine. buy skins. buy cosmetics. buy things which DONT impact gameplay. whenever you sell power its a hard no from me
The gear in game is decent, and the cash shop isn't full of cool skins, therefore NO MATTER what they do or say it will be VERY pay to win VERY soon. Enjoy wasting $$$. Sad though, it had potential.
most F2P MMOs are completely P2W anyone who tells u otherwise is lying or in denial. the best MMOs are the ones that sell a membership to play or some sort of cosmetics (if they arent the only way to look cool) look at SWOTR/ESO/WOW and others, these games literally are a decade+ old and didn't need P2W to pay for its costs at all... jesus when will people realise that. MMOs DONT NEED TO BE P2W
@@simplyruben3184 You're right that MMOs don't need to be pay to win and can sustain themselves from a subscription model with no pay to win, but the issue is that gaming companies are becoming more and more greedy. They know very well that they can make significantly more money from a F2P with P2W model and that's why they're doing it. Even WoW is starting to lean in that direction with the WoW token and GDKP raids, so the future of MMOs is looking very grim.
For people who say how the developers will get money without the "P2W" concept, There are tons of way of getting money. Guild wars 2 has practically the best example.
This game is like starting a never ending game of League of Legends with enemies at level 20 and corresponding gold. As soon as you reach level 20 the others will be at 40. If you don't spend tons of money you will never reach them.
I’ve been playing since the game launched, telling myself I’ll get stronger today, I’ll get stronger tomorrow, and now I’ve reached 3k IP. During this time, I thought I was weak because I didn’t have traits. Turns out, that wasn’t the issue at all. There’s no build as ridiculous as the sword and shield / sword build. There are combinations so absurd that you can’t get out of stun ‘until you die.’ I’ve experienced how hard it is to play as a mage in this game. Open-world bosses are already the guilds’ playground. A party of 3-5 people can’t do anything. What I’m saying is that today, I reached 3k IP and quit the game. The characters are unbalanced, and the PvP is terrible. If anyone’s considering starting, take this comment seriously.
Here's what I think about pay to win. Rich kid buys his build. Ruins the game for himself. No longer gets to enjoy the grind. Gets like two weeks of thinking he's good at pvp while the rest of us catch up. Then he gets shit on for the remainder of his time cause no amount of money can buy skill and experience
Whomever said you can buy an wow token and be mythic geared from AH I can guarantee has never played the game LMAO, you can buy 2-3 off pieces of Mythic gear in AH nothing more, the only way you can argue WOW is pay to win is that you can buy WOW tokens and pay people for boosts not AH, the guy that said that is 100% clueless!
Bro, imagine having to play a game like a full time job AND pay the game on top and have the delusion to think you're not getting screwed over and that this is actually a good design.
Why needs to be "pay to win?" Digital Extremes makes millions with Warframe and STILL till this day they don't have "pay to win" (if you exclude the boosters). I think if they add a limit of 1000 Lucent max price in auction house people will be more eager to buy Lucent from their shop instead of grinding for them.
1000$ for 1% power is nothing when you drop 20k on lost ark. Thats 20% power. Diablo immortals #1 player spent 200k. Over time the p2w will just be more blatant.
How to avoid pay to win in TL: Join a guild, do guild activities and events, if you're in a good guild that participates, that guild will get the items and sell them on AH. Then YOU, the player that is in said guild and is I'm assuming actually PLAYING THE GAME, will get a portion of the lucent the guild made from the sale. I have gotten thousands of lucent for free and have been f2p since the game came out. Just play the game and you'll have no need to spend anything. People complain about literally any form of putting money into a game and getting an advantage. If people want to spend money on gear and traits and QOL features like extra presets for skills and gear, let them. There is this super cool real life perk that a lot of people have called DISPOSABLE INCOME that they are welcome to spend on whatever they damn well please. Also, game companies have to make money and as long as people continue to speak with their wallets, they will keep putting these features in their games. If that isn't your cup of tea, don't fucking drink it. Play something else. Not every game is gonna be for you.
Hey to win in this game, but I’ve seen there’s not a single thing behind a pay wall free to play players can compete in PVP with anybody who spent how much money they want generally speaking in order to call it paid some advantage to paying whales only play games where they can buy their way to fix that not possible in this game anybody can build a character level it up, geared up and be competitive as anybody who spent their money
This guy already did everything someone shouldn't do just for money, don't expect from him something great. You are not allowed to be mad at him because you're also the one watching him and made him that way.
The biggest problem with the game is each server being controlled by the 70 players of the strongest guild. P2w also playing a lot. Whales vs plankton. They control the access to game activities content and end game items.
In WoW there's not really much p2w though. People who pay are already behind because they need to be boosted by f2p players. When a new content patch or expansion drops, paying won't help you, cause you need a good group to clear. It's only after some weeks that people finally start boosting. So it's basically no different then paying to boost character to max level. You're just paying to catch up to people who are already ahead. I don't mind it too much because those people who pay will never really pass me. They're basically noobs. In Throne and Liberty if you want to be ahead of the curve, and of the best players, you need to pay. So the strongest players are p2w ones.
There's 2 battle passes, Shroud, they're making plenty of money off of that alone and then there's the cash shop for materials and cosmetics... They don't need any more.
i don’t get it when u have the auction house u can get lucants without spending a cent yeah it will take more time but it’s there,like in warframe and the plat situation
Of course bro is okay with it, he's rich af lmao. The majority of people are broke or barely scraping by, which is why most of us are barely okay with a subscription fee.
they evaluate lost ark as 9 in a 0 to 10 p2w scale, however lost ark is a PVE mainly game, you are paying to kill npc. Throne and Liberty is a PVP GVG game, where you pay to literally WIN. You dont win anything putting real money in lost ark other than getting your raids done faster, getting into other whales groups. A regular free to play player can play lost ark and enjoy the game. A regular free to play player wont be able to do the same in Throne and Liberty and thats whats the T.
Shroud says they need to make money, so the game has to be pay2win. This is crazy talk! If they want to make money. Remove all P2W features and sell the game for 50 bucks one time purchase.
Would you rather play a subscription based or pre-paid type of game like Ragnarok Online way back 2003 that you can only login if you load your account or a free to play game with the option to buy some gears/customes etc in the shop?
Subscription base 1000% cause then I can play without the thought of how greedy the company is going to get in the future and how meaningless anything I’m doing is if someone can swipe2win
Sorry shroud, but i can't understand your reasoning, in the game u can literally buy anything with money. I guess yhe mmorpg community is so thirsty to play that they would day bullshit just to play
Its the forced times to fight world bosses and such that was finally a big quit from me. Forcing players to play your game at certain times or you won't progress is a huge no no. This game will be dead soon in the west anysways.
So Shroud thinks its best to give the p2w function (in this case it's storage access from anywhere?) for free to the players instead of removing it all, but at the same time he also hard believes that they will add the system back in to cost money later. If this happens, wouldn't this be in a worse situation for the game because the system that was introduced as "free" to NA but then months later it is put behind a paywall?
It's not introduced as free it just doesn't exist. He's saying instead of removing it at all it should have been kept in but for free. But he knows they wouldn't do that, so instead it will be brought in later behind a subscription just like Korea.
@@Zepher-1023 they just want to make sure people invest time and money before doing so that way the chain ⛓️💥 is a lot more durable when they reveal it
It really isn't pay to win it all though you can just farm Green items and extract the good traits with trait extraction stones and then sell them on the auction you can make over 200 lucent easy in just a couple of hours you can buy trait extraction stones from the contract coins vendor
Is is so sad to watch. The streamers that make enough money to just dump it into a game that should alreayd have these features for free. These sales model is corrupt and not in good faith. The make all these assets and armors and weapons and POWER then they sell it to us instead of just putting it in for free. As well as make a huge game. Cut it in half then sell the second half as dlc. And i know throne and liberty is free but they do that so they can sell everything us.
People are weird... they dont like when u can buy res to craft faster gear... in the same time they hate the idea that there is no way to buy items that can help u make craft ur gear faster. Then almost all mmos are p2w. There is always something that u can buy with real money that can make ur gs increase faster. So u dont grind all day long. Im f2p player. Will pay money only if there will be some dope cosmetics. Atm i have farmed materials myself to make gear i need and lvl up as much i can. Slower ofc, but not impossible.
people dont want to pay monthly sub for mmos but also dont want to play f2p if theres p2w included, cant get em all it is what it is. imo i dont really care as long as i have fun with the game
People having the point of this video fly over their head. Having P2W in the game is going to be a neccessary evil in MMOs because buying something off the shop is what devs need to make money. If you dont need to buy it, no one will buy. So they put it in the game, but in such a way that by buying P2W its a complete waste of money to do so. An illusion of winning. Alot like BDO funnily enough. But people dont like P2W at all, so they try to remove it to say "n-no we were wrong." This is where Shroud is saying thats its too late. You shouldnt have added in in the FIRST PLACE. Now EVERYONE KNOWS youre going to add it in EVENTUALLY. Which is whatever, but now it screws over the whales AND the players because the P2W is half assed AND removing P2W somehow meant losing features of the game. So Shroud basically saying you mine as well let the whales have their fun since they cant escape the P2W title now
I understand if ppl say i only want subscription based mmorpg with nothing else to pay for. But I think ppl who r playing a F2P mmo and suggest to have 0 p2w option is shameless.
@@Prudaeng bros want a free game with optional 10 dollar skins thinking that’s gonna pay for the server and production up keep on top of paying for the cost it took to make the games. These are for profit companies not a charity
@@sirtreedom2123 this is kinda how a lot of succesfull MMOs survive though; take Elder Scrolls Online it is TEN years old and ONLY has a subscription model and a lootbox system that has entirely ONLY cosmetic items, thats all they have and need for monetization. the game lived a decade and is still going. don't f* tell me these games need this level of P2W to ''survive'' just having a good MMO will ensure it survives, like jesus how hard is that to grasp, if you can pull in and maintain say a million players paying $10 a month that is still 10 million USD a month. more than enough to cover costs. what are you yapping
@@Prudaeng this is kinda how a lot of succesfull MMOs survive though; take Elder Scrolls Online it is TEN years old and ONLY has a subscription model and a lootbox system that has entirely ONLY cosmetic items, thats all they have and need for monetization. the game lived a decade and is still going. don't f* tell me these games need this level of P2W to ''survive'' just having a good MMO will ensure it survives, like jesus how hard is that to grasp, if you can pull in and maintain say a million players paying $10 a month that is still 10 million USD a month. more than enough to cover costs. what are you yapping
@@Prudaengexactly people don’t understand that it’s fun to buy skins to look cool and bid on armor to be powerful virtually. It’s apart of the level grind and makes the game 100% more fulfilling. I love when mechanics are made retarded just so I can pay for a better version of that retarded mechanic brings me joy. 🥹
Id rather have pay to entry than pay to win. like fuck charge me 50 bucks. sell cosmetics. and you will keep your player base and make some extra cash. i guess common sense isn't so common.
I wanted to buy 1 thing in the game but it was behind a 100 $ bundle for a hood and robe ik some people who play these games think that chum change but im a chum 😢
You pay game that cost millions $ and thousands of hours to make for FREE. The entitlement of cry babies is so sad. I don't care about "keeping up". If you really love the game you will master it eventually and can challenge donors on even ground. If you can't spent money you will have to spent your time and try harder. People who spend cash allow you to play game for FREE. If you can't show support for devs don't cry. I spent 0 money on modern mmorpgs and enjoyed those games.
well p2w doesn't matter anyway because they'd probably have to pay me to play this crap. I haven't seen such an outdated, slow and boring combat system in a long time. there's no way anyone who played NW or BDO would feel good in this game, i dont belive that
shroud is full of shit this game is 100% pay to win. This dude saying that and spend 25k in the game already and nobody playing normally has a single chance to kill him
a milliionairre likes p2w, how convinient
Who cares what others do with their money and their opinions on such? Grow up lol
@@fredfreddy7220 keep lickin that boot bud
@@fredfreddy7220 Who cares? well stpd buddy if you're going to play PVP those "nobady cares" will kck Ur ass. lol
@@fredfreddy7220 because it's effecting the games that we play genius
@@fredfreddy7220 nobody cares how he spends his money, that's not the argument. He's saying that shroud has the luxury to spend the money on pay to win when the average person doesn't
Streamers have ruined gaming. These guys are getting paid to play games that they won’t even play in 2 weeks.
Yup, the marketing dollars to get streamers to play games is leading to the games downfall.
Streamers are bringing in hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars collectively playing games for at max 2-3 weeks and then moving to the next cash cow.
Even if a game is good you can’t keep the player base if they came from streamers and they’ve moved on.
Ehhh, Shroud wouldn't have to be paid to play Throne, guy genuinely enjoys MMOs. If he stops playing in two weeks, it's because the game didn't have enough content to hold a player playing 12 hours a day.
@@TheHeartThatRunsCold Which is his point, also he's riding the game's dick rn because others are and he needs to stay relevant somehow
@@DameworthI do get your point but using "moving on to another game after a couple weeks" as an insult is kind of stupid. Do you expect them to play the same game forever? Fair enough for mmorpg streamers but most games aren't meant to be played forever. Hence why live service games are tanking.
@@ThatDudeCalled live service games are not tanking
Cheering on pay to win is so sad
Believe it or not, Koreans think the game is not enough p2w. There's this gaming culture from true hardcore gamers of people that work really hard (at their job) and just throw money at their favorite game.
@@Olixer109 they have mental problems
@@kubasniak Supporting game devs equals mental issues? Spending money you earned through hard work the way you want equals mental issues?
Like what the f is this logic?😂
The whales are fighting at the top I've never seen a whale hunt low gears player before.
The mental gymnastic people do to defend P2W is kinda wild. Game industry is in a mess for a reason and that reason is greed.
Then how can they earn money and be motivated to create games
lol, the people that call games something there not are even more wild. Haven't spent a single dime besides pre ordering, max level almost all purple gear, gear getting leveled smoothly. Not a single dime spent in shop or auction house. The only mental gymnastics is ya'll spreading false info when you haven't even played the god damn game.
People parroting bullshit are also kinda wild.
@@brianmadera1828 by doing other stuff than p2w? simple minded much
@@hamsterrwrld6767 we dont give a fk that you spent all of your living hours on that shjt game since it released, we're talking about the experience of the MASSES, how they are affected by the fact that this game is p2w and others WILL have advantage over you no matter what way you try looking. Not everyone has 24 hours a day to spend on games.
This goofball is so out of touch on what gamers like and dislike. Streamers like him, who mind you are paid to play the game for promotion, ruin the gaming experiences for people who enjoy gaming.
true
hes a millionaire he doesnt care, not only that but he actually is making money playing this game through streams....dont trust streamer opinions ... they are always bad or bought out.
this guy is so good at giving bad takes... just like his game
I'm ok with paying up to a subscription a month in a free game, $10-$20.
I'm NOT OK if you are expected to spend $100-$500 a month to keep up.
threre is battle pass and leveling pass so there are 2 subs now, u wanna 3?
The problem with the subs in F2P MMOs, is that they still don't net you a normal progression curve.
@@ThePlaion that's way different than a monthly sub to play the game lmao
This game has a soft cap. People that are spending now will spend more when tier 2 comes out early next year.
You can literally grind and earn lucent easily. I’ve made 2k lucent without decent RNG. I know others making 10k and up. The whales aren’t getting that much advantage in pvp.
I'm ok paying $50 subscription monthly. Just please no fucking p2w.
Don't even need to watch the video to know Shroud is defending the p2w
He can afford if he want to, it's not a big deal to him.
You can buy a used car, or fully gear a character in throne and liberty 😊
@@slashgeegee doesn't mean that he needs to defend p2w.
@@slashgeegee oh my fucking god. you people vote?? SO sick of seeing this stupid, smooth brain take. YEAH HES RICH WE KNOW MTX DOESNT AFFECT FUCKING RICH PEOPLE BUT IT DOES EFFECT THE GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME OH MY GOD
just stop being poor
They can easily make all the money they need with paid cosmetics and utilities that don't directly affect character power. (like extra storage space, inventory space, etc) The problem is they want to maximize profits. Usually, the more you maximize profits in the short term, the more you damage the long term outlook.
Well technically, they dont sell any direct power. There r like cosmetic packages which gives u some lucent but not that much tbh. The only p2w model in this game right now in the west is the auction house n it is EXACTLY the same in p2w lvl as wow. I dont understand why he would say AH in wow is somehow different. U can buy the currency with real money and buy things in AH. Both r exactly the same The only difference is u play this for free and wow u need subscription. Now TL in KR does have subscription based buff that gives u number of comfort features which is basically p2w because u can access storage anywhere and that is basically easier farm and thus p2w.
What im trying to say is ppl r making this game out to be like those asian mobile games where u can infinitely swipe for cash gears and direct powerups with like 50 packages in cash shopmwith 10 cash currencies but in reality its not that different from other mmosmout there with RMT and AH.
@@Prudaeng "the only p2w model in this game is the auction house" if u use ur brain u realize u JUST said another p2w feature about the game the sentence before 😭Also RMT is smth almost impossible to battle and it's NOT the game's fault for being a thing unless they dont try to do anything about it.
No one is saying it's a shitty mobile game even tho it looks like one, P2W is P2W no matter if you're on shroud's "p2w spectrum", it's a spectrum sure but P2W is P2W No matter how you look at it. are you gonna say someone isnt autistic if they are super low on the spectrum? lmao
@@Angelvanberghen difference between u and me is I think there is a degree of P2W that ranges from acceptable to unacceptable. U seem to be any sort of pay for comfort, power is p2w trash. So i assume games like wow and gw2 r all p2w trash to you because they have rmt and ah?
@@Angelvanberghen also, cosmetic is considered p2w? Ah is the only main p2w content in TL in the west.
The group that no life's games for 3-4 weeks then moves on to another game is the main reason games die.
The actual player base that will continuously grinds a game don't want p2w things in it that make them feel stupid for trying to grind when you can just pay for power.
I'm starting to understand more and more why I've seen social descent about Shroud.
If you, a very fortunate and wealthy broadcaster, wants P2W then go play MMOs that already have it instead of trying to push for developers to fully embrace it in currently tamed and future MMOs. Don't be more of a blight than you already are upon MMO communities.
If PvP were equalized or something, maybe all the P2W in this wouldn't be such a huge deal. But it is primarily a PvP MMO, so..
Gotta make the whales feel good somehow
What is the point of gearing if PvP is equalised? Grind becomes pointless.
@@WolfedOut lol, Grind becomes not pointless if someone buys out every bis gear in a heartbeat while u spent 3000hours of grinding to get those gears?
Im sorry but this is like a horrendous take on the game. P2W needs to leave the gaming industry PERIOD. And them removing is a good thing for the game
How do they make money to keep the game servers running and people to maintain them?
@@jonezee-2 Adding stuff that does not provides advantage over others just for paying?
cosmetics wont be enough so what else do you suggest
It's a take from someone with a bottomless bank account and KNOWN competitive player.
Can't imagine why he'd enjoy being on top :p
Should someone tell this guy that’s never gonna happen.
Instantly knew to "do not recommend channel" Andro block him from showing on my feed.
This dude is a joke.
He's choking on AGS eggplant.
agree
7:08 no sorry youre wrong shroud. people dont like pay to win because the idea of someone spending money to get an in game advantage over other players isn't fun in any way shape form or fashion. building the game around p2w just makes it worse. If youll notice gamers like it when the game is seperate from the profit engine. buy skins. buy cosmetics. buy things which DONT impact gameplay. whenever you sell power its a hard no from me
“How bad is the pay 2 win” proceeds to defend it.
Shroud stays having the worst takes in gaming this is why his game flopped
Begging for P2W is crazy. These companies have mfs trained! 😂😂😂 Sick work my guy!
bro crying about p2w being removed 😂😂 what a joke
The gear in game is decent, and the cash shop isn't full of cool skins, therefore NO MATTER what they do or say it will be VERY pay to win VERY soon. Enjoy wasting $$$. Sad though, it had potential.
most F2P MMOs are completely P2W anyone who tells u otherwise is lying or in denial.
the best MMOs are the ones that sell a membership to play or some sort of cosmetics (if they arent the only way to look cool)
look at SWOTR/ESO/WOW and others, these games literally are a decade+ old and didn't need P2W to pay for its costs at all... jesus when will people realise that.
MMOs DONT NEED TO BE P2W
@@simplyruben3184 You're right that MMOs don't need to be pay to win and can sustain themselves from a subscription model with no pay to win, but the issue is that gaming companies are becoming more and more greedy. They know very well that they can make significantly more money from a F2P with P2W model and that's why they're doing it. Even WoW is starting to lean in that direction with the WoW token and GDKP raids, so the future of MMOs is looking very grim.
this is why games aint fun anymore all pay to win shit
Shroud: Doesn’t know how auction house works.
Also Shroud: “This games not bad in P2W”
tbh shroud has 0 idea about mmorpgs and rpgs in general.
Of course the millionaire likes pay to win. Its not an issue for you to drop hundreds of dollars on a game. The average person can't though
says a guy that wants end game instantly and not have to work for nothing lol
This is the type of guy who would get to end game in less than 48hours then complain about lacking content. gtfo
Shroud turning into Shill'd
For people who say how the developers will get money without the "P2W" concept, There are tons of way of getting money.
Guild wars 2 has practically the best example.
or FFXIV and WoW
@@SheaSyz League of Legends too
Damn the disconnect is real, sucks to hear.
This game is like starting a never ending game of League of Legends with enemies at level 20 and corresponding gold. As soon as you reach level 20 the others will be at 40. If you don't spend tons of money you will never reach them.
I’ve been playing since the game launched, telling myself I’ll get stronger today, I’ll get stronger tomorrow, and now I’ve reached 3k IP. During this time, I thought I was weak because I didn’t have traits. Turns out, that wasn’t the issue at all. There’s no build as ridiculous as the sword and shield / sword build. There are combinations so absurd that you can’t get out of stun ‘until you die.’ I’ve experienced how hard it is to play as a mage in this game. Open-world bosses are already the guilds’ playground. A party of 3-5 people can’t do anything. What I’m saying is that today, I reached 3k IP and quit the game. The characters are unbalanced, and the PvP is terrible. If anyone’s considering starting, take this comment seriously.
Here's what I think about pay to win. Rich kid buys his build. Ruins the game for himself. No longer gets to enjoy the grind. Gets like two weeks of thinking he's good at pvp while the rest of us catch up. Then he gets shit on for the remainder of his time cause no amount of money can buy skill and experience
"I don't like p2w but..." ;P I love watching this dude. It makes me feel better about myself.
What an idiot
It's another predatory P2W game then?
yes
when i tried the game for 1 hour i felt like a guinea pig for that 1 hour. maybe it will be different for some people
Whomever said you can buy an wow token and be mythic geared from AH I can guarantee has never played the game LMAO, you can buy 2-3 off pieces of Mythic gear in AH nothing more, the only way you can argue WOW is pay to win is that you can buy WOW tokens and pay people for boosts not AH, the guy that said that is 100% clueless!
Bro, imagine having to play a game like a full time job AND pay the game on top and have the delusion to think you're not getting screwed over and that this is actually a good design.
Why needs to be "pay to win?" Digital Extremes makes millions with Warframe and STILL till this day they don't have "pay to win" (if you exclude the boosters).
I think if they add a limit of 1000 Lucent max price in auction house people will be more eager to buy Lucent from their shop instead of grinding for them.
1000$ for 1% power is nothing when you drop 20k on lost ark. Thats 20% power. Diablo immortals #1 player spent 200k. Over time the p2w will just be more blatant.
L shroud. complaining that there is not enough p2w is so sad
I cant believe people throw money at this guy so he can beg for pay to win in EVERY game he plays
How to avoid pay to win in TL: Join a guild, do guild activities and events, if you're in a good guild that participates, that guild will get the items and sell them on AH. Then YOU, the player that is in said guild and is I'm assuming actually PLAYING THE GAME, will get a portion of the lucent the guild made from the sale. I have gotten thousands of lucent for free and have been f2p since the game came out. Just play the game and you'll have no need to spend anything. People complain about literally any form of putting money into a game and getting an advantage.
If people want to spend money on gear and traits and QOL features like extra presets for skills and gear, let them. There is this super cool real life perk that a lot of people have called DISPOSABLE INCOME that they are welcome to spend on whatever they damn well please. Also, game companies have to make money and as long as people continue to speak with their wallets, they will keep putting these features in their games. If that isn't your cup of tea, don't fucking drink it. Play something else. Not every game is gonna be for you.
The graphics in T&L is the same as Rohan Bloodfeud which was a game released 16 years ago...
200$ on a sword??
on one of the worst swords in the game that can be replaced with 1 hour of farming a public dungeon
@@Lexipumpkin783 sure
Hey to win in this game, but I’ve seen there’s not a single thing behind a pay wall free to play players can compete in PVP with anybody who spent how much money they want generally speaking in order to call it paid some advantage to paying whales only play games where they can buy their way to fix that not possible in this game anybody can build a character level it up, geared up and be competitive as anybody who spent their money
This guy already did everything someone shouldn't do just for money, don't expect from him something great.
You are not allowed to be mad at him because you're also the one watching him and made him that way.
ALL QOL features in a game should be free. Anything that gives you an advantage by spending money should be removed.
The biggest problem with the game is each server being controlled by the 70 players of the strongest guild. P2w also playing a lot. Whales vs plankton. They control the access to game activities content and end game items.
And that is why we play single players online games are all the same nowadays
damn... how did this guy ever gain popularity?
In WoW there's not really much p2w though. People who pay are already behind because they need to be boosted by f2p players. When a new content patch or expansion drops, paying won't help you, cause you need a good group to clear. It's only after some weeks that people finally start boosting.
So it's basically no different then paying to boost character to max level. You're just paying to catch up to people who are already ahead. I don't mind it too much because those people who pay will never really pass me. They're basically noobs.
In Throne and Liberty if you want to be ahead of the curve, and of the best players, you need to pay. So the strongest players are p2w ones.
There's 2 battle passes, Shroud, they're making plenty of money off of that alone and then there's the cash shop for materials and cosmetics... They don't need any more.
Any additional payment from the upfront cost, maybe excluding a big ass dlc a year later, is straight bs and has ruined gaming
i don’t get it when u have the auction house u can get lucants without spending a cent yeah it will take more time but it’s there,like in warframe and the plat situation
Of course bro is okay with it, he's rich af lmao. The majority of people are broke or barely scraping by, which is why most of us are barely okay with a subscription fee.
Well, this is how you lose a subscriber. I know it doesn’t matter to him for how rich he is but sadly im disappointed..
they evaluate lost ark as 9 in a 0 to 10 p2w scale, however lost ark is a PVE mainly game, you are paying to kill npc. Throne and Liberty is a PVP GVG game, where you pay to literally WIN. You dont win anything putting real money in lost ark other than getting your raids done faster, getting into other whales groups. A regular free to play player can play lost ark and enjoy the game. A regular free to play player wont be able to do the same in Throne and Liberty and thats whats the T.
Shroud says they need to make money, so the game has to be pay2win. This is crazy talk! If they want to make money. Remove all P2W features and sell the game for 50 bucks one time purchase.
You explained it well. Spending money in this game is a waste. You spend for cosmetics or pets really and those don’t give you an advantage.
So what’s the auction house?
Would you rather play a subscription based or pre-paid type of game like Ragnarok Online way back 2003 that you can only login if you load your account or a free to play game with the option to buy some gears/customes etc in the shop?
Subscription base 1000% cause then I can play without the thought of how greedy the company is going to get in the future and how meaningless anything I’m doing is if someone can swipe2win
Sorry shroud, but i can't understand your reasoning, in the game u can literally buy anything with money. I guess yhe mmorpg community is so thirsty to play that they would day bullshit just to play
I dont like p2w
"BUT"
Here we go again..
Guys just too rich
WE HAVE TO STOP PLAYING THESE PAY TO WIN GAMES
IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO END THIS CANCER
Its the forced times to fight world bosses and such that was finally a big quit from me.
Forcing players to play your game at certain times or you won't progress is a huge no no.
This game will be dead soon in the west anysways.
You playing for free so dont cry, pay 20 dollars for the leveling perks, ad you have to play less hours for the same achivment.
So Shroud thinks its best to give the p2w function (in this case it's storage access from anywhere?) for free to the players instead of removing it all, but at the same time he also hard believes that they will add the system back in to cost money later. If this happens, wouldn't this be in a worse situation for the game because the system that was introduced as "free" to NA but then months later it is put behind a paywall?
It's not introduced as free it just doesn't exist. He's saying instead of removing it at all it should have been kept in but for free. But he knows they wouldn't do that, so instead it will be brought in later behind a subscription just like Korea.
@@Zepher-1023 they just want to make sure people invest time and money before doing so that way the chain ⛓️💥 is a lot more durable when they reveal it
«Its not that bad»
Bro just spent 20k to get boosted to rank 1 pvp
It really isn't pay to win it all though you can just farm Green items and extract the good traits with trait extraction stones and then sell them on the auction you can make over 200 lucent easy in just a couple of hours you can buy trait extraction stones from the contract coins vendor
shrouds game is doing so bad, hes down playing any other amazing game that does amazing things lmaoo
Stupid, the more they add pay to win stuff, the more players will leave the game and the game will end up dying just like the rest of them.
Is is so sad to watch. The streamers that make enough money to just dump it into a game that should alreayd have these features for free. These sales model is corrupt and not in good faith. The make all these assets and armors and weapons and POWER then they sell it to us instead of just putting it in for free. As well as make a huge game. Cut it in half then sell the second half as dlc. And i know throne and liberty is free but they do that so they can sell everything us.
L take on storage anywhere if that happens you'll never see ppl
This guy is so lame
You can but item from the auctuon with real money? Directly?
well in a way yes, you buy lucent with real money and then you buy world boss gear from the auction
people like shroud poisoning promising mmo's for the casual player
People are weird... they dont like when u can buy res to craft faster gear... in the same time they hate the idea that there is no way to buy items that can help u make craft ur gear faster.
Then almost all mmos are p2w. There is always something that u can buy with real money that can make ur gs increase faster. So u dont grind all day long.
Im f2p player. Will pay money only if there will be some dope cosmetics. Atm i have farmed materials myself to make gear i need and lvl up as much i can.
Slower ofc, but not impossible.
people dont want to pay monthly sub for mmos but also dont want to play f2p if theres p2w included, cant get em all it is what it is. imo i dont really care as long as i have fun with the game
ESO has no sub and isn’t p2w and has voice chat in game 🫡
I'd pay sub tho
What a joke. This is why he couldn’t compete in a game that had real PVP that wasn’t p2w like ESO
It's people like you who enable those companies and making all MMO's worst in general.
shroud has lost touch with the real world no idea what moneys worth
This sucks i really like this game but with all the pay to win and only getting loot two times a day this feels like a mobile game
this dude is the reason why games are being ruined by greedy developers but what do you expect from a clown who used hacks.
There is already far too much p2w in this game. A subscription should REPLACE p2w. Not add to it.
few years you can be master of fps games then a puppet to corps
How do you win an mmo?
Ofc Shroud like the feature cuz he can get ALL gears with 1 swipe
People having the point of this video fly over their head. Having P2W in the game is going to be a neccessary evil in MMOs because buying something off the shop is what devs need to make money. If you dont need to buy it, no one will buy. So they put it in the game, but in such a way that by buying P2W its a complete waste of money to do so. An illusion of winning. Alot like BDO funnily enough. But people dont like P2W at all, so they try to remove it to say "n-no we were wrong." This is where Shroud is saying thats its too late. You shouldnt have added in in the FIRST PLACE. Now EVERYONE KNOWS youre going to add it in EVENTUALLY. Which is whatever, but now it screws over the whales AND the players because the P2W is half assed AND removing P2W somehow meant losing features of the game. So Shroud basically saying you mine as well let the whales have their fun since they cant escape the P2W title now
I'm not surprised the same Lost Ark whales are glazing this game
I understand if ppl say i only want subscription based mmorpg with nothing else to pay for. But I think ppl who r playing a F2P mmo and suggest to have 0 p2w option is shameless.
@@Prudaeng bros want a free game with optional 10 dollar skins thinking that’s gonna pay for the server and production up keep on top of paying for the cost it took to make the games. These are for profit companies not a charity
@@sirtreedom2123 exactly. Also mmorpg is an extremely expensive genre of game to service. Ppl r demanding something that is unrealistic
@@sirtreedom2123 this is kinda how a lot of succesfull MMOs survive though; take Elder Scrolls Online it is TEN years old and ONLY has a subscription model and a lootbox system that has entirely ONLY cosmetic items, thats all they have and need for monetization. the game lived a decade and is still going. don't f* tell me these games need this level of P2W to ''survive''
just having a good MMO will ensure it survives, like jesus how hard is that to grasp, if you can pull in and maintain say a million players paying $10 a month that is still 10 million USD a month.
more than enough to cover costs. what are you yapping
@@Prudaeng this is kinda how a lot of succesfull MMOs survive though; take Elder Scrolls Online it is TEN years old and ONLY has a subscription model and a lootbox system that has entirely ONLY cosmetic items, thats all they have and need for monetization. the game lived a decade and is still going. don't f* tell me these games need this level of P2W to ''survive''
just having a good MMO will ensure it survives, like jesus how hard is that to grasp, if you can pull in and maintain say a million players paying $10 a month that is still 10 million USD a month.
more than enough to cover costs. what are you yapping
@@Prudaengexactly people don’t understand that it’s fun to buy skins to look cool and bid on armor to be powerful virtually. It’s apart of the level grind and makes the game 100% more fulfilling. I love when mechanics are made retarded just so I can pay for a better version of that retarded mechanic brings me joy. 🥹
Id rather have pay to entry than pay to win. like fuck charge me 50 bucks. sell cosmetics. and you will keep your player base and make some extra cash. i guess common sense isn't so common.
You've become so shameless shroud, unfollowing you on everything. ( I know this comment will make u laugh, which would just proves my point )
I wanted to buy 1 thing in the game but it was behind a 100 $ bundle for a hood and robe ik some people who play these games think that chum change but im a chum 😢
but a purple sword is only 200 dollars, AND some have crit! /s
I think ill just wait for Brighter Shores.
somebody please tell shroud to play the frist decendant or diablo immortal... he gonna love those game
1300 views in 40 mins from a 1.2m sub channel is crazy
You pay game that cost millions $ and thousands of hours to make for FREE.
The entitlement of cry babies is so sad. I don't care about "keeping up". If you really love the game you will master it eventually and can challenge donors on even ground. If you can't spent money you will have to spent your time and try harder.
People who spend cash allow you to play game for FREE. If you can't show support for devs don't cry. I spent 0 money on modern mmorpgs and enjoyed those games.
well p2w doesn't matter anyway because they'd probably have to pay me to play this crap. I haven't seen such an outdated, slow and boring combat system in a long time. there's no way anyone who played NW or BDO would feel good in this game, i dont belive that
ofc swiper defends p2w LOL
you can make more than enough money with good skins and cosmetics
the man has some bad takes nowdays, he's not the voice of the plebs
shroud is full of shit this game is 100% pay to win. This dude saying that and spend 25k in the game already and nobody playing normally has a single chance to kill him
Ive disliked every p2w gamer. Why would u want to ruin the game for everyone else just cause u have money 2 spare.
he propably getting paid or just stupid
YEA you lost us on that one shroud