Because ultimately he's just trying to give people legal advice if they happen to fall into these situations. The point is not necessarily to encourage fear-mongering, Which a lot of people are prone to doing to themselves. Life does not function in extremes, and that's a very important concept that people need to get a grasp on.
If you're terrified of this, I really hope you find the right person man. The one you're with might not be the right one. Idk your life but you shouldn't be scared of that. Either that or you aren't as confident in your own worth as you should be.
@@HelloThere.....I mean the fact is there’s just so many awful people nowadays who literally do things just to spite and somehow get away with doing things they should be thrown under a jail for all because what they’ve done is technically “legal” doesn’t make the actions any less of what they are, pure evil.
Maybe. If he turns out to be a schmo and, let's say, totals my car and takes no responsibility for it, I'm dumping him and keeping the ring to put towards a new car. Honestly, blanket statements aren't that helpful. They just encourage people to turn their brains off, rather than think on a case-by-case basis.
@@EyeLean5280blanket statements are better than comparing unlike situations to justify a conclusion you wanted anyway. If you want to collect a debt then do it the proper way.
So a ring is kind of like a bribe, like a lobbying group giving a politician millions of dollars. He doesn't HAVE to do as they say and keep the money, but he will be targeted for removal by that group.
I remember this when I was getting my MBA. They also had the question about the ceiling fan in a home purchase and the whether an item is considered lost in an abandoned car.
Oh, pretty sure the ceiling fan belongs to the new homeowner as a fixtures and if the car was abandoned then the property contained within would also be abandoned.
How about just not giving a family heirloom to a person that isn’t family. That is a better option and also, I suggest the engagement ring be one made from her birthstone rather than a diamond. If this is not acceptable to your lovely fiancé….. you have a red flag that is an opportunity to judge her reaction and an indication as to her true character and depth of love for you. God bless ✌️
@@HalfB I definitely wouldn’t agree that preferring something other than their birthstone is a red flag. Some birthstones simply aren’t durable enough for daily wear. Some people don’t like the color of their birthstone. And also diamond is a birthstone. The real life hack is to ✨communicate✨ with your partner and find out what they like. If you’re planning to marry this person, you should be able to talk to them. And if it’s a piece of jewelry they’re gonna wear every day, they probably want to have at least a little say in what it looks like. Couples should discuss marriage before anyone proposes anyway to make sure they’re both ready to take that step
Correct! Even in States where you otherwise could claw the ring back if you give it as part of a traditional gift that it remains a gift freely given and unable to be recovered.
Correct! Even in States where you otherwise could claw the ring back if you give it as part of a traditional gift that it remains a gift freely given and unable to be recovered.
@@hydralisk3534 I agree with this, but also still it kinda seems smart to make special days new ones instead of doing them on days already supposed to be special every year. Though it also doesn't seem like a bad idea to make one extra special either, not sure. Either way seems to sound alright I guess, maybe this would just be personal taste thing.
Especially frustrating that lab grown diamonds (real ones, not cubic zirconia or other knock offs) cost like a tenth of what natural diamonds cost and the only way to distinguish between the two is that lab grown diamonds are supposed to get a microscopic laser engraving and they have LESS imperfections.
Yup, de beers have run the most successful market campaign/scam of all time. Wedding rings are only like 100 year old "tradition", and fortunately, they are slowly dying as more and more people fund out the truth. Its insane that a new diamond ring has exppnential depreciation. It goes from costing an arm and leg to practically worthless in seconds
My preferred gem for such occasions is moissanite. Just as hard, available in whatever color, less cartel behind it, and less likely to be a "blood diamond".
The difference between a promise and a gift should be considered before using a family heirloom as an engagement ring. My tendency is to advise *not* to use family heirlooms.
Our engagement ring was a family heirloom, which worked out great. Not from either one of our families, mind; we went to a giant second-hand jewelry store/bazaar in Toronto, ON and found a subtle-but-gorgeous art deco ring from the 1910s-1920s. As for the wedding rings, well, we were both arts workers at the time and, as I had significantly more time than money at the moment, I went to a local bespoke jewelry shop and made the rings myself.
Playing devils advocate, if the man knows he'll break it off and pockets the ring, tells the fiancé the engagement is off and leaves. Can the ex-fiancé say that is theft and contact the police.
Also just know - a) marriage is supposed to be for the rest of your lives, and not to be entered into lightly. And, as such, b) if, on reflection, you realize that it's not a commitment you're able to stand by through thick and thin for the rest of your life, and you, therefore, wish to not go through with the marriage after all, then, yes, whilst it's a horrible situation for your betrothed to be in, they do - from the point of view of being honourable - have to give you the ring back. That's not a legal point. It's a point of honour.
Agree. It’s a mature person who knows themselves well enough to end it, even tho it would hurt the other person. The ring should be returned regardless of state law, keeping it would seem petty and possibly vengeful.
@@voskresenie- Probably not. This feels like a bit of an inane question in the first place. It's probably based on something like their stances on the role of a husband vs a wife and their attachment to antiquated views on marriage and the way they handle the enforcement of verbal contracts. Basically, this is a whole mess, and could be easily solved by people just not giving each other expensive rings when they just want to enter into a legal contract.
Will you marry me (with the stipulation that this relationship is purely contractual and this ring is symbolic of this contract and is not, in fact, a gift external to said contract)?
Buy a cheap ring and this isn't a problem, ours are ceramic with abalone. Money is probably better spent getting a house and paying off the mortgage or in an IRA anyways.
That sounds beautiful but also incredibly fragile. I would imagine you don’t wear it daily? For those who do want to wear a ring daily, different options are a good call.
My husband and I found 50$ black titanium rings. They came with a free engraving so I got our wedding date and "I love you" "I know" on the inside as a surprise. It's been 4 years and the coating is getting scratched off so they're more silver than black but a rings a ring. Maybe we'll get new ones once it's all silver 😊
rings are kind of what replaced a dowry a payment to the family of the bride to the husband, I believe that he had to return the money if the wedding was canceled
Or acknowledge that you are taking a risk-and that risk is entirely on you. If you can get it back, sick! If not, then you'll have made an informed and thought-throught decision
@awkwardpawsome it shouldn't be a gamble. Like if I bought it. She can keep it. Idc how much I spent. But my family's wedding band is a different ball game. It was meant to give away and pass down in my family. I can't wear it. I'm a man
Just given my understanding of the origins of the tradition, it’s always been a Contract, given as an agreement to get married. Even nowadays An engagement ring is presented as a request. That’s why the words traditionally spoken are “Will you marry me” aka, do you accept this ring, offered in the understanding between both parties that if accepted, it will lead to marriage. If anything, the wedding ring is the gift, not the engagement ring.
I have to respectfully disagree. I see what you are saying, but in my head, a marriage proposal can be done without the ring. It does not have to be part of the proposal if you choose to add it to make it more special than that is a decision, so it is a gift. Just my thoughts, what do you think?
@@kathiphilp1195 no I definitely see your point. Unfortunately this whole issue seems largely subjective to me. I’m not a lawyer, and given that the opinions of lawyers are apparently split on this issue, it seems like this is outside my realm of expertise. I did however have a strange idea. By looking at it from a slightly less Human Perspective, An engagement ring is akin to a security deposit on the contract. If the contract is fulfilled, the ring belongs to the recipient. If the contract is not fulfilled, the deposit is returned. A ring is not required in fulfilling the contract in the same way a deposit isn’t a prerequisite for a contract. But that doesn’t mean the deposit isn’t protected under the law.
Just my opinion, obviously, but I think general money-borrowing etiquette is at play here. If the person receiving the ring calls it off, it's just classy to give it back. If you gave the ring, you'd better be sure you're ok with losing it if the relationship goes south.
I agree with the first part. I don't know about the 2nd one, you give someone a ring with the intention to marry them that does not mean you're going to be OK with them keeping the ring after they say No If the decent thing to do is to give the ring back, then someone not doing the decent thing would deserve an appropriate reaction back yes? To put it very very simply sneezing while covering your mouth is the decent thing to do but if someone does not do it, do we not ask them to cover their mouth? That situation only exacerbates when there's a good bit of money involved
@@stevekerrskid3365 Doesn't matter, if they physically hurt you then call the police and press charges. The second you start seeing signs of abuse kick them to the curb. That ring belongs to the person who bought it, and was given to you with the promise that you will marry them. If you no longer want to get married then you need to give the ring back. Doesn't really matter what state your in, some states allowed slavery in the past doesn't make it right. If you're hurt by someone do you just go to their house and steal all their stuff? Of course not, you sue them and let the courts decide the damages. Abuse does not give you the right to steal from someone.
Engagement rings were basically an insurance policy. If a man backed out of a wedding, the jilted bride wouldn’t be financially ruined from turning down other prospects because she was planning on marrying this guy.
That would only be reasonable if they sold it, even then it would be argued more like a gift. It’s like getting a car gifted from your parents or something
I think they probably technically would have to pay tax on the ring when they originally received it, just like you have to pay tax on a car if your family gifts one to you.
In most states it doesn't matter who broke it off because no fault divorce is the law of the land in most states and if divorce is considered no fault, so is breaking up regardless of who called it off. The who keeps the ring question varies in a different states and maybe one or two that's true, but most follow the idea that the giver gets it back.
My personal take on it (as a 44 year old guy) is that if I'm to propose to someone, I will give them a cheap walmart ring. If that offends her, she is not the woman I want. The ring is symbology and if she's looking for an expensive ring, then she doesn't want me, she wants my money. If a girl were to say yes even though the ring is cheap, then that means she values Me more than some stupid ring. Obviously this means that there's a 99.9999% chance I will die single, and I'm OK with that. I'd rather die single than be a divorcee.
I’ve talked to my gf about it and we’ve both agreed rings are too expensive and neither of us really want one. An ornate SWORD on the other hand seems much more interesting so whoever proposes first is gonna do so with a sword lmaoooo. Would definitely prefer a gift that shows she’s listening to me over a gift she worked hard for in a monetary sense. If she got me a cheap Walmart ring Ide read it as “oh you simultaneously didn’t try and listen and get something you know would make me happy AND you put zero monetary effort into it so there was no work or thought out into this VERY pivotal and important object in both our lives and our relationship”. Not that I can imagine her doing that but if she did Ide definetly rethink how she feels about me because it’s not about the ring it’s about the effort and care that goes into something akin to it. That’s my personal take as a girl that doesn’t want an expensive ring anyway feel free to do with this info what you will
@@lilithbean To me, the "effort" thing shouldn't have to do anything with money. The "effort" was put into the relationship itself, getting to know her, being patient, being there for her, making her happy, etc. If that isn't enough effort, then a ring or whatever else isn't going to be good enough either.
I've learned that marriage has a ton of missing small print. I'd love to see all the ramifications of marriage written down in one place. 1) Spouse's right to make medical decisions for spouse and their children. 2) Inheritance. 3) Property ownership. 4) How things split during a divorce. 5) Alimony and Child Support. 6) Banking. 7) Debt. 8) Taxes. 9) Not having to be a witness against spouse. 10) Shared legal responsibility. Ad nauseum.
I refuse to learn the law. I shall circumvent this problem through scheming. Make a fake ring that looks exactly like the real one and switch it out secretly after the marriage.
@@oldfogey4679 It's a joke. A scheme to swap out an engagement ring is so ridiculous I did not think anyone would believe I was being serious. Poe's law at it again.
Traditionally, it just depends on who breaks it off. So, if the woman backs out, the man can request the ring back. But if the guy backs out, she can keep it
What, in all that is good and holy, is a gift tax? Please don’t tell me you have to pay for gifts you receive from other people in the US? That’s incredibly fucked up.
@@lesliellama7779 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_tax_in_the_United_States basically only applies if you're giving somebody more than £18,000 worth of stuff in a year, because it's an easy way to dodge tax otherwise by "gifting" all your money to people who will "gift" it back to you whenever you need it, tax-free
@@lesliellama7779gifts are a form of income, of course there's a tax on them. It's to avoid workplaces classifying their employee wages as gifts to avoid taxes. Think about how incredibly stupid it would be if you could just say "my working for the company was a gift for them. And the money they gave me was also just a gift" and now you don't need to pay any taxes. There are only certain kinds of gifts that are taxed and only if you've given that person money, or qualifying property, worth more than $18k in a single tax year. The majority of countries have a gift tax, not just the US
@@shinycaterpie4443 I have never been asked to declare a gift when filing taxes. A gift is a gift, regardless of how expensive it is. We also don’t need to declare prize money like the lottery, because gambling, unless it’s your full time job (professional poker player etc) is not income. If something is given to you in exchange for a good or service, that is income. Otherwise a gift is a gift and it’s none of the tax office’s business.
In New Jersey, an engagement ring is considered a gift with a condition, which is marriage. If the marriage does not happen, the ring must be returned, regardless of who called off the marriage.
Even in most of the states where it is a promise not a gift... it is still considered a gift if you purpose on Xmas, feb 14th, a birthday or an anniversary.
If they changed their minds about being married after the engagement ring was a accepted . To me that an agreement to marriage and then changed their mind, should be a to sue for breach of promise.
It doesn't depend on a state law whether you get the ring easily back. It depends on the person you chose to propose and how you interact with each other. Even if law compelled, you'd still might not get your grandma's precious but cheap ring back. If your ex-gf is petty, you'd get probably the momentary value back but lose the sentimental value.
In some is also an exception for an heirloom ring, so if it would otherwise be considered a gift, if it is an heirloom, the person whose family it belongs to gets to keep it.
Then how do you exactly define "breaking off the marriage"? Suppose you stumble upon your fiancé cheating on you. As I'd expect any self-respecting person to do, you call off the marriage. Who would be considered to be the one breaking off the marriage? Is it the person who cheated, or the person who cancelled the wedding in response to the cheating? In this example it's clearly an unforgivable infraction to cheat, and you're pretty much asking to be dumped by doing so. But, the reasons for why an engagement ends in general, aren't always so cut and dry, about who caused it to end.
The way i see it, its a promise. No one thinks ir makes sense for someone to propose, have the other party say no, but then grab the ring anyways. If it was a gift they would have taken the ring no matter the response, when its a promise its conditional.
If you're (speaking as a woman) the one who ends the relationship then yes you give the ring back. If the other person ends the relationship you get to keep it and do whatever with it, sell it, give it away, chuck it in a lake...whatever.
The answer to Part 2 of the question "That's irrelevant -- saying 'I do' at the altar has no bearing on the legality of a marriage. The couple might have gone through the legal process before the ceremony, or they might be planning to do it after."
Literally just took my first year Property exam and we read that case lol Interestingly, because the guy had broken off the engagement before and told her she could keep it (before reconciling and breaking up again), they said he waived his condition and thus couldn’t get it back fault or not.
In the states where it is a gift, what if someone says yes just to get the ring without any intention of marrying? Could that be considered fraud/theft my deception?
I heard a story from my friend circle where the guy proposed on the girls birthday, she said yes, but then later changed her mind. She wanted to sell the ring (she already had) so she said it was a birthday gift and not part of the engagement. Not sure if that argument is what made the difference in her state (Michigan), but she won.
I remember at my cousin's wedding they signed a marriage contract right after exchanging vows, I'm assuming that was the moment they became legally married
I would have thought that the ring could be seen as part of a contract to marry and redeemable undercontract law. Contract of "will you marry me- yes" if you don't go through with marrying then isn't a breach of contract.
what if you’re proposal and the “ gift or promise “of the ring occurs in a different state than the state that you’re both residents in? Assuming it only matters where the engage actually occurs? Many couples propose on yachts out at sea or on a cruise that may not come back to port for a couple days, in which case I assume it matters what state the boat was registered in and I guess cruise liners are registered by the flag they fly?
If you do live in a promissory state, and the person spurns you and won't give you the ring back either, how do you enforce that? Do you have to sue them, or can you just have the cops go demand it from them?
I was always told if you called off the wedding you give the ring back, but if they call off the wedding you keep it (assuming you were the one that was proposed to, obviously)
Yeah, I suppose a proposal is sort of like a verbal contract, and if one person breaks the contract, any property previously exchanged as part of the contract should be returned.
If its a family ring I feel like no matter what always give it back. My engagement ring was my grandma's passed to my mom then to my husband to use for me. Even though he was gifted the ring and it was his property before asking me to marry him I would hate if I had to give it back. Thankfully he is on my side and we are still madly in love 10 years down the road.
I didn't have to worry about this because he made me buy my ring. When he demanded it back when we broke up, I laughed and laughed and then said "Ok, give me the 2 grand I paid for it and it's yours!" I still have the ring. 😏
I was just telling my daughter that when she gets her heirloom ring, she gives it to only her daughter. If she has a son and she gives it to him, he’d give to his wife. If they divorce, you might as well throw it out the car window. 50-50 chance.
I mean, it depends on the person and the value of the ring if I'd want it back. Now, I would never give my spouse an extremely expensive ring. That's just not who I am. Money is not something to be used on superficial things like jewellery and paintings. That's a waste of money. So that means I'd only want it back out of pettiness and spite.
One thing that I think pple are missing is that if you are left at the altar and the pos says "by the way I am taking thihs because I like money" you got off extremely easy and cheap instead of a painfully expensive divorce years later. You got lucky
Not even legally speaking, I wouldn’t feel right keeping the ring if I decided I didn’t want to marry them anymore
Exactly
Yea, but you are most likely a regular, reasonable person.
@@johannabonana5306not everyone is though
My ex has been engaged 4 times and married once, and she collects rings like infinity stones.
@@AzureRadiona this comment 😂. Imagine that scene where Thanos first puts on the gauntlet but it’s just a bridezilla opening her drawer
I love that he in so many words tells people to chill out after making them really anxious.
Because ultimately he's just trying to give people legal advice if they happen to fall into these situations.
The point is not necessarily to encourage fear-mongering,
Which a lot of people are prone to doing to themselves.
Life does not function in extremes, and that's a very important concept that people need to get a grasp on.
God that's a terrifying possibility
If you're terrified of this, I really hope you find the right person man. The one you're with might not be the right one. Idk your life but you shouldn't be scared of that.
Either that or you aren't as confident in your own worth as you should be.
@@HelloThere.....I mean the fact is there’s just so many awful people nowadays who literally do things just to spite and somehow get away with doing things they should be thrown under a jail for all because what they’ve done is technically “legal” doesn’t make the actions any less of what they are, pure evil.
@@HelloThere.....I mean 55 percent of American marriages end in divorce so...
As is marriage
@suhaasvemuri7980 well, 100% of American divorces begin in marriage....
Legalities aside, I think the ring should always be given back.
Maybe. If he turns out to be a schmo and, let's say, totals my car and takes no responsibility for it, I'm dumping him and keeping the ring to put towards a new car.
Honestly, blanket statements aren't that helpful. They just encourage people to turn their brains off, rather than think on a case-by-case basis.
@@EyeLean5280 Cool. You don't get a pass.
@@EyeLean5280blanket statements are better than comparing unlike situations to justify a conclusion you wanted anyway. If you want to collect a debt then do it the proper way.
@@EyeLean5280 you're the exact type of person that makes people ask this question. get help or stay alone
Especially when many people use the rings of their grandparents
The correct term is consideration. Marriage is a contract, so the ring is considered consideration in some states.
So a ring is kind of like a bribe, like a lobbying group giving a politician millions of dollars. He doesn't HAVE to do as they say and keep the money, but he will be targeted for removal by that group.
I remember this when I was getting my MBA.
They also had the question about the ceiling fan in a home purchase and the whether an item is considered lost in an abandoned car.
Oh, pretty sure the ceiling fan belongs to the new homeowner as a fixtures and if the car was abandoned then the property contained within would also be abandoned.
@@samkdaily3055 the short answer is it depends.
@@TylerBTalkinglol isn’t that the answer for like 90% of that?
@@mrnoname5183 Of course not… it’s alot higher than 90% 😁
Posession is 9/10ths of the law. 😂
In the States where the ring is a gift, it should be an exception in the case the ring is the proposer's family heirloom.
How about just not giving a family heirloom to a person that isn’t family. That is a better option and also, I suggest the engagement ring be one made from her birthstone rather than a diamond. If this is not acceptable to your lovely fiancé….. you have a red flag that is an opportunity to judge her reaction and an indication as to her true character and depth of love for you. God bless ✌️
@HalfB you're less than intelligent huh
@@HalfB I definitely wouldn’t agree that preferring something other than their birthstone is a red flag. Some birthstones simply aren’t durable enough for daily wear. Some people don’t like the color of their birthstone. And also diamond is a birthstone. The real life hack is to ✨communicate✨ with your partner and find out what they like. If you’re planning to marry this person, you should be able to talk to them. And if it’s a piece of jewelry they’re gonna wear every day, they probably want to have at least a little say in what it looks like. Couples should discuss marriage before anyone proposes anyway to make sure they’re both ready to take that step
@HalfB Sooooo... You're from Alabama then? Given you would only give a family ring to a family member...
@@davidtucker9498 No, not from Alabama but I personally would not give a family heirloom for an engagement ring but yes for an anniversary gift.
Don’t propose on Christmas or their birthday. It can be argued as a gift
Correct! Even in States where you otherwise could claw the ring back if you give it as part of a traditional gift that it remains a gift freely given and unable to be recovered.
Correct! Even in States where you otherwise could claw the ring back if you give it as part of a traditional gift that it remains a gift freely given and unable to be recovered.
Maybe don’t make decisions about your proposal based on the idea that you’re gonna break up? Seems like you have bigger problems in that case
@@hydralisk3534 I agree with this, but also still it kinda seems smart to make special days new ones instead of doing them on days already supposed to be special every year. Though it also doesn't seem like a bad idea to make one extra special either, not sure. Either way seems to sound alright I guess, maybe this would just be personal taste thing.
Propose on April 1st
Fun fact: engagement rings were a marketing campaign by Big Diamond to sell more diamonds (and that's not even a joke)
Big diamond is under-hated. They do a ton of market manipulation and have highly exploitative labor practices.
Especially frustrating that lab grown diamonds (real ones, not cubic zirconia or other knock offs) cost like a tenth of what natural diamonds cost and the only way to distinguish between the two is that lab grown diamonds are supposed to get a microscopic laser engraving and they have LESS imperfections.
Ok
Yup, de beers have run the most successful market campaign/scam of all time. Wedding rings are only like 100 year old "tradition", and fortunately, they are slowly dying as more and more people fund out the truth.
Its insane that a new diamond ring has exppnential depreciation. It goes from costing an arm and leg to practically worthless in seconds
My preferred gem for such occasions is moissanite. Just as hard, available in whatever color, less cartel behind it, and less likely to be a "blood diamond".
The difference between a promise and a gift should be considered before using a family heirloom as an engagement ring. My tendency is to advise *not* to use family heirlooms.
Our engagement ring was a family heirloom, which worked out great.
Not from either one of our families, mind; we went to a giant second-hand jewelry store/bazaar in Toronto, ON and found a subtle-but-gorgeous art deco ring from the 1910s-1920s.
As for the wedding rings, well, we were both arts workers at the time and, as I had significantly more time than money at the moment, I went to a local bespoke jewelry shop and made the rings myself.
Also used to signify a legal contract that one party could sue over. Found that out when asking about family history. 😮
My mother always told me if the man breaks off the marriage, she keeps the ring. If the woman breaks off the marriage, she returns the ring.
Playing devils advocate, if the man knows he'll break it off and pockets the ring, tells the fiancé the engagement is off and leaves. Can the ex-fiancé say that is theft and contact the police.
@@HikingPNW no. I don't think so. Too little of a problem for them to have time for it
@@HikingPNW this isn't about the police.
@@CallyAthis is how I was taught as well.
A good lawyer will always answer “it depends.”
Also just know - a) marriage is supposed to be for the rest of your lives, and not to be entered into lightly. And, as such, b) if, on reflection, you realize that it's not a commitment you're able to stand by through thick and thin for the rest of your life, and you, therefore, wish to not go through with the marriage after all, then, yes, whilst it's a horrible situation for your betrothed to be in, they do - from the point of view of being honourable - have to give you the ring back. That's not a legal point. It's a point of honour.
Agree. It’s a mature person who knows themselves well enough to end it, even tho it would hurt the other person. The ring should be returned regardless of state law, keeping it would seem petty and possibly vengeful.
I’d have assumed all states would view it as a legally binding verbal agreement since something of value changed hands between parties
if you had to guess, do you think there's some sort of... pattern between the states that go one way vs the other? politically, religiously, you know
@@voskresenie- Probably not. This feels like a bit of an inane question in the first place. It's probably based on something like their stances on the role of a husband vs a wife and their attachment to antiquated views on marriage and the way they handle the enforcement of verbal contracts. Basically, this is a whole mess, and could be easily solved by people just not giving each other expensive rings when they just want to enter into a legal contract.
Regardless of where you live, be a decent human being and give the ring back. You shouldn’t have to have a law to tell you that.
Will you marry me (with the stipulation that this relationship is purely contractual and this ring is symbolic of this contract and is not, in fact, a gift external to said contract)?
Right? But that's also what it's like getting the government involved in the first place. Making it a contract. 😅
Buy a cheap ring and this isn't a problem, ours are ceramic with abalone.
Money is probably better spent getting a house and paying off the mortgage or in an IRA anyways.
Christ where are the women like you hiding 😭
My wife wanted a wooden ring with stone inlay. Cheap and beautiful. Still looks the same.
That sounds beautiful but also incredibly fragile. I would imagine you don’t wear it daily? For those who do want to wear a ring daily, different options are a good call.
@@sarajanewebster5321the ceramic? Never felt fragile. The glaze makes it fairly sturdy
My husband and I found 50$ black titanium rings. They came with a free engraving so I got our wedding date and "I love you" "I know" on the inside as a surprise. It's been 4 years and the coating is getting scratched off so they're more silver than black but a rings a ring. Maybe we'll get new ones once it's all silver 😊
My niece kept the ring after he cheated on and broke up with her before the wedding. We all agreed she was justified.
I get it, but I wouldn't want the reminder. I'd at least sell it if I keep it so as not to have the reminder but still get something good from it.
@@elyssabarajas3554 She may have sold it. All I know is he didn’t get it back.
rings are kind of what replaced a dowry a payment to the family of the bride to the husband, I believe that he had to return the money if the wedding was canceled
We know what states politicians have been left at the alter.
Yeah but I wouldn't want anybody taking my family's ring. That would be a thief it's meant to be in my family.
@@addisonhinson6290Whether or not it's legal, I'd always say, never give anyone anything that you would not be fine never seeing again
Or acknowledge that you are taking a risk-and that risk is entirely on you. If you can get it back, sick! If not, then you'll have made an informed and thought-throught decision
@awkwardpawsome it shouldn't be a gamble. Like if I bought it. She can keep it. Idc how much I spent. But my family's wedding band is a different ball game. It was meant to give away and pass down in my family. I can't wear it. I'm a man
@@addisonhinson6290 It kinda sounds like it would be on you if you gave it to someone outside of the family.
Just given my understanding of the origins of the tradition, it’s always been a Contract, given as an agreement to get married. Even nowadays An engagement ring is presented as a request. That’s why the words traditionally spoken are “Will you marry me” aka, do you accept this ring, offered in the understanding between both parties that if accepted, it will lead to marriage. If anything, the wedding ring is the gift, not the engagement ring.
Marriage is a contract. Spritiually and physically.
I have to respectfully disagree. I see what you are saying, but in my head, a marriage proposal can be done without the ring. It does not have to be part of the proposal if you choose to add it to make it more special than that is a decision, so it is a gift. Just my thoughts, what do you think?
@@kathiphilp1195just because the contract CAN be done without the ring doesn’t mean the ring, when involved, isn’t part of the contract.
@@kathiphilp1195 no I definitely see your point. Unfortunately this whole issue seems largely subjective to me. I’m not a lawyer, and given that the opinions of lawyers are apparently split on this issue, it seems like this is outside my realm of expertise. I did however have a strange idea. By looking at it from a slightly less Human Perspective, An engagement ring is akin to a security deposit on the contract. If the contract is fulfilled, the ring belongs to the recipient. If the contract is not fulfilled, the deposit is returned. A ring is not required in fulfilling the contract in the same way a deposit isn’t a prerequisite for a contract. But that doesn’t mean the deposit isn’t protected under the law.
@One-EyedCorvus Yeah forsure people smarter than me need to figure it out 😂.
Just my opinion, obviously, but I think general money-borrowing etiquette is at play here. If the person receiving the ring calls it off, it's just classy to give it back. If you gave the ring, you'd better be sure you're ok with losing it if the relationship goes south.
not really etiquette when it’s the law (in some places)
@@nicaretezeteticon6934 etiquette is the social or moral norms where the law doesn't apply or exist.
I agree with the first part. I don't know about the 2nd one, you give someone a ring with the intention to marry them that does not mean you're going to be OK with them keeping the ring after they say No
If the decent thing to do is to give the ring back, then someone not doing the decent thing would deserve an appropriate reaction back yes?
To put it very very simply sneezing while covering your mouth is the decent thing to do but if someone does not do it, do we not ask them to cover their mouth?
That situation only exacerbates when there's a good bit of money involved
What if they start being abusive after the proposal? Why should that person lose out on thousands of dollars on top of that?
@@stevekerrskid3365 Doesn't matter, if they physically hurt you then call the police and press charges. The second you start seeing signs of abuse kick them to the curb.
That ring belongs to the person who bought it, and was given to you with the promise that you will marry them. If you no longer want to get married then you need to give the ring back. Doesn't really matter what state your in, some states allowed slavery in the past doesn't make it right.
If you're hurt by someone do you just go to their house and steal all their stuff?
Of course not, you sue them and let the courts decide the damages.
Abuse does not give you the right to steal from someone.
Engagement rings were basically an insurance policy. If a man backed out of a wedding, the jilted bride wouldn’t be financially ruined from turning down other prospects because she was planning on marrying this guy.
If you don't get the ring back, they should have to claim it as income and pay taxes on it.
Why? If you got divorced after a decade the ring didn't suddenly become income they've always had it.
That would only be reasonable if they sold it, even then it would be argued more like a gift. It’s like getting a car gifted from your parents or something
I think they probably technically would have to pay tax on the ring when they originally received it, just like you have to pay tax on a car if your family gifts one to you.
In states where it’s considered a gift, the giver is generally responsible for the gift tax (but if it’s under $18,000 it’s excluded)
So which is it in Georgia where you practice ?
Its not a gift if the wedding wouldnt happen without you giving the ring to her
You don't need to be engaged to get married
Evidently it may also depend upon who broke the engagement and why, and whether the ring is a family heirloom.
In most states it doesn't matter who broke it off because no fault divorce is the law of the land in most states and if divorce is considered no fault, so is breaking up regardless of who called it off. The who keeps the ring question varies in a different states and maybe one or two that's true, but most follow the idea that the giver gets it back.
@@CJ2345ish yup, that jibes with what I read.
So what your saying is propose in the right state?
What determines which state's laws you follow? The proposer's state of residence, the proposee's, or the state the proposal occurred in?
If she leaves you at the altar, and keep the ring, consider yourself lucky. She could have waited and take half your belongings
In Tennessee you can get the ring back.
My personal take on it (as a 44 year old guy) is that if I'm to propose to someone, I will give them a cheap walmart ring. If that offends her, she is not the woman I want. The ring is symbology and if she's looking for an expensive ring, then she doesn't want me, she wants my money. If a girl were to say yes even though the ring is cheap, then that means she values Me more than some stupid ring. Obviously this means that there's a 99.9999% chance I will die single, and I'm OK with that. I'd rather die single than be a divorcee.
I’ve talked to my gf about it and we’ve both agreed rings are too expensive and neither of us really want one. An ornate SWORD on the other hand seems much more interesting so whoever proposes first is gonna do so with a sword lmaoooo. Would definitely prefer a gift that shows she’s listening to me over a gift she worked hard for in a monetary sense. If she got me a cheap Walmart ring Ide read it as “oh you simultaneously didn’t try and listen and get something you know would make me happy AND you put zero monetary effort into it so there was no work or thought out into this VERY pivotal and important object in both our lives and our relationship”. Not that I can imagine her doing that but if she did Ide definetly rethink how she feels about me because it’s not about the ring it’s about the effort and care that goes into something akin to it. That’s my personal take as a girl that doesn’t want an expensive ring anyway feel free to do with this info what you will
@@lilithbean To me, the "effort" thing shouldn't have to do anything with money. The "effort" was put into the relationship itself, getting to know her, being patient, being there for her, making her happy, etc. If that isn't enough effort, then a ring or whatever else isn't going to be good enough either.
wtf is symbology? Do you mean symbolic?
@@lilithbean I would much rather have a cool item too. Modern jewelry is expensive and boring.
@@coocat231 I suppose "symbolism" would be another word that could be used there.
I would only want the ring back if it was a family heirloom or something.
“I do………………….not”
Damn right in the heart 😮
What's if it's a family heirloom? And technically the ring belongs to grandma or grandpa (or the estate)
Then you committed fraud by giving away something that didn't belong to you
@@jonathangitter1311 I don't think that's fraud though
@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan why wouldn't it be
@@jonathangitter1311 why would it be?
Judge Judy always gives the ring back, if your jurisdiction doesn’t, maybe go see her 😂😂
I've learned that marriage has a ton of missing small print. I'd love to see all the ramifications of marriage written down in one place.
1) Spouse's right to make medical decisions for spouse and their children.
2) Inheritance.
3) Property ownership.
4) How things split during a divorce.
5) Alimony and Child Support.
6) Banking.
7) Debt.
8) Taxes.
9) Not having to be a witness against spouse.
10) Shared legal responsibility.
Ad nauseum.
I refuse to learn the law. I shall circumvent this problem through scheming. Make a fake ring that looks exactly like the real one and switch it out secretly after the marriage.
Eric living dishonestly always comes back to bite u! And if ur dishonest in marriage then ur the worst type of person!
@@oldfogey4679 It's a joke. A scheme to swap out an engagement ring is so ridiculous I did not think anyone would believe I was being serious. Poe's law at it again.
@@ericfahnestock1031 it's not a joke to some! We've all known people who'd tryn do that
If it's a family heirloom something would definitely be signed
"Will you marry me?"
Me: "No" *grabs the ring anyway*
Traditionally, it just depends on who breaks it off.
So, if the woman backs out, the man can request the ring back.
But if the guy backs out, she can keep it
If it's a gift, do you have to pay gift tax?
What, in all that is good and holy, is a gift tax? Please don’t tell me you have to pay for gifts you receive from other people in the US? That’s incredibly fucked up.
@@lesliellama7779 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_tax_in_the_United_States
basically only applies if you're giving somebody more than £18,000 worth of stuff in a year, because it's an easy way to dodge tax otherwise by "gifting" all your money to people who will "gift" it back to you whenever you need it, tax-free
@@lesliellama7779gifts are a form of income, of course there's a tax on them. It's to avoid workplaces classifying their employee wages as gifts to avoid taxes. Think about how incredibly stupid it would be if you could just say "my working for the company was a gift for them. And the money they gave me was also just a gift" and now you don't need to pay any taxes.
There are only certain kinds of gifts that are taxed and only if you've given that person money, or qualifying property, worth more than $18k in a single tax year. The majority of countries have a gift tax, not just the US
@@shinycaterpie4443 I have never been asked to declare a gift when filing taxes. A gift is a gift, regardless of how expensive it is. We also don’t need to declare prize money like the lottery, because gambling, unless it’s your full time job (professional poker player etc) is not income. If something is given to you in exchange for a good or service, that is income. Otherwise a gift is a gift and it’s none of the tax office’s business.
Been married for 21 years and the engagement ring I bought was $200 and came with the wedding band to be soldered to it😂
Would WHERE you gave the ring matter at all?
In New Jersey, an engagement ring is considered a gift with a condition, which is marriage. If the marriage does not happen, the ring must be returned, regardless of who called off the marriage.
Wouldn't the ring signify a verbal contract. If she said yes. Would that be the same as a marriage contract? Lawsuit
If you left me at the altar and you aren't an absolute douche bag, gimme back the ring. Them things are expensive
Even in most of the states where it is a promise not a gift... it is still considered a gift if you purpose on Xmas, feb 14th, a birthday or an anniversary.
If they changed their minds about being married after the engagement ring was a accepted . To me that an agreement to marriage and then changed their mind, should be a to sue for breach of promise.
I feel like all answers on a law exam should just be "It Depends."
It doesn't depend on a state law whether you get the ring easily back. It depends on the person you chose to propose and how you interact with each other.
Even if law compelled, you'd still might not get your grandma's precious but cheap ring back. If your ex-gf is petty, you'd get probably the momentary value back but lose the sentimental value.
In some is also an exception for an heirloom ring, so if it would otherwise be considered a gift, if it is an heirloom, the person whose family it belongs to gets to keep it.
Aren't there also states where the one breaking off the marriage looses the ring?
Then how do you exactly define "breaking off the marriage"?
Suppose you stumble upon your fiancé cheating on you. As I'd expect any self-respecting person to do, you call off the marriage.
Who would be considered to be the one breaking off the marriage? Is it the person who cheated, or the person who cancelled the wedding in response to the cheating?
In this example it's clearly an unforgivable infraction to cheat, and you're pretty much asking to be dumped by doing so. But, the reasons for why an engagement ends in general, aren't always so cut and dry, about who caused it to end.
It shouldn’t be anything more than a question of ethics……
Common practice: whoever breaks the engagement has no claim to the ring
Your watch collection is crazy.
That's the law in Michigan, we had to research that in first year Research and Writing class
What happen after one second????? We need to know!
Let her keep the ring, it’s worth the price for dodging the nightmare she would have been.
Moral of the story: Shiny pieces of finger metal are stupid, just don't buy one to begin with.
It sounds like he got the question wrong and is holding a little resentment over it lmaooo
In Canada it's a conditional gift, so it becomes the property of the receiver when they meet the condition. It's part of contract law.
The way i see it, its a promise. No one thinks ir makes sense for someone to propose, have the other party say no, but then grab the ring anyways. If it was a gift they would have taken the ring no matter the response, when its a promise its conditional.
I got the ring back. I'm glad I did. Thanks.
If you're (speaking as a woman) the one who ends the relationship then yes you give the ring back. If the other person ends the relationship you get to keep it and do whatever with it, sell it, give it away, chuck it in a lake...whatever.
I think the ring should be seen as a gift. If the cost of the ring is enough of an incentive for them to leave… you got off CHEAP!
American law school must be so easy, all of the answers are always "depends on what state youre in" lmao
I'm getting that ring back...one way or another. If it comes to the "other"...cést la vie.
The answer to Part 2 of the question "That's irrelevant -- saying 'I do' at the altar has no bearing on the legality of a marriage. The couple might have gone through the legal process before the ceremony, or they might be planning to do it after."
Saw this on Judge Judy when I was a small kid
Literally just took my first year Property exam and we read that case lol Interestingly, because the guy had broken off the engagement before and told her she could keep it (before reconciling and breaking up again), they said he waived his condition and thus couldn’t get it back fault or not.
In the states where it is a gift, what if someone says yes just to get the ring without any intention of marrying? Could that be considered fraud/theft my deception?
I heard a story from my friend circle where the guy proposed on the girls birthday, she said yes, but then later changed her mind. She wanted to sell the ring (she already had) so she said it was a birthday gift and not part of the engagement. Not sure if that argument is what made the difference in her state (Michigan), but she won.
A ring is like a dowry, unless it is not.
I can imagine this is how Mike proposed.
It’s definitely not a gift, it’s part of an exchange in a business transaction.
Men, this is why if she pressures you for an absurdly expensive ring or insists on you using a family heirloom, walk away, she's not there for you.
I think Miss Manners would say that the person who opts out of the engagement leaves without the ring.
As someone who was left after engagement, I'm glad the ring question didn't become a legal battle.
You should 100% return the ring if you don't get married.
I remember at my cousin's wedding they signed a marriage contract right after exchanging vows, I'm assuming that was the moment they became legally married
We've all seen Judge Judy's show.
Everyone knows this already.
If it's heirloom, it needs to go with whoever's family it's from. End of story for that scenario
Property class and torts class had the best hypos lol
I bet you half my shit we can live in the same place together till one of us dies.
I would have thought that the ring could be seen as part of a contract to marry and redeemable undercontract law. Contract of "will you marry me- yes" if you don't go through with marrying then isn't a breach of contract.
Romcoms have solidified in my mind the image of her beaning the guy in the head with it when she realizes he's a jerk.
what if you’re proposal and the “ gift or promise “of the ring occurs in a different state than the state that you’re both residents in?
Assuming it only matters where the engage actually occurs?
Many couples propose on yachts out at sea or on a cruise that may not come back to port for a couple days, in which case I assume it matters what state the boat was registered in and I guess cruise liners are registered by the flag they fly?
The music choice in this video is great
Give them a decoy ring at the proposal!
If you do live in a promissory state, and the person spurns you and won't give you the ring back either, how do you enforce that? Do you have to sue them, or can you just have the cops go demand it from them?
That's why you give her a ring with cubic cerconia. After 50 years, it won't matter.
I was always told if you called off the wedding you give the ring back, but if they call off the wedding you keep it (assuming you were the one that was proposed to, obviously)
Yeah, I suppose a proposal is sort of like a verbal contract, and if one person breaks the contract, any property previously exchanged as part of the contract should be returned.
I've always wondered how this situation is handled legally
If its a family ring I feel like no matter what always give it back. My engagement ring was my grandma's passed to my mom then to my husband to use for me. Even though he was gifted the ring and it was his property before asking me to marry him I would hate if I had to give it back. Thankfully he is on my side and we are still madly in love 10 years down the road.
I didn't have to worry about this because he made me buy my ring. When he demanded it back when we broke up, I laughed and laughed and then said "Ok, give me the 2 grand I paid for it and it's yours!" I still have the ring. 😏
I was just telling my daughter that when she gets her heirloom ring, she gives it to only her daughter. If she has a son and she gives it to him, he’d give to his wife. If they divorce, you might as well throw it out the car window. 50-50 chance.
I mean, it depends on the person and the value of the ring if I'd want it back. Now, I would never give my spouse an extremely expensive ring. That's just not who I am. Money is not something to be used on superficial things like jewellery and paintings. That's a waste of money. So that means I'd only want it back out of pettiness and spite.
One thing that I think pple are missing is that if you are left at the altar and the pos says "by the way I am taking thihs because I like money" you got off extremely easy and cheap instead of a painfully expensive divorce years later. You got lucky