A World of Gothic Horror: The Problem With Modern Batman Stories
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2019
- In today's video, we are going to look at the past thirty years of Batman's history, and see how things have changed gradually since then. From the days of The Dark Knight Returns, Arkham Asylum, and The Killing Joke, to Grant Morrison's run in 2006 and Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo's run with the New 52. All the way to Tom King's recent stories with Batman Rebirth, I hope you like it because this one is special to me. Let me know what you think, and thanks for watching!
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Hey everybody! Thank you so much for watching, this one is pretty special to me, and has a lot of things that I have been feeling for a while now in it. I had meant for it to be one of my shorter ten or so minute videos, but as you can see I had a bit more to say than I thought I did. I hoped you liked it, and I am really curious to see how everybody else feels about it because this one is kind of subjective I think. Thank you so much for the support, and I will see you next time.
I prefer when Batman is a tragic hero and dark character just like how I agree Gotham needs to be grim and gothic. It's literally in the name!
Amazing
Thanks!
Yeah but this joker movie is about to show you the horrors of Gotham. What Gotham (society) has made the Joker. Im telling you joaquin pheonix joker is gonna be a masterpiece.
Could you do a video on your favorite DC Elseworld story or the Vertigo series Fables? I think they would be really up your alley.
I found an Elseworld mini series called Robin 3000. Someone from my church gave me a bunch of comics that belonged to his younger brother. Most of them were comics from the late 1970's to the 1990's. I actually have some of the titles that you mentioned in the video. Batman had a crossover with Predator in the late 80's early 90's.
If Batman worked during the day, he’d end up with a tan line where his cowl opens up and everyone will know who he is
SILENCE, YOU didnt nEed to sayThAt
Sunblock?
@@trivialmayhem400 Robin, QUICK, hand me my BAT BLOCK!
Only if he was the bat in the daytime.
Matt Styner NO SHIT
“If you cannot see this version of Batman comforting a child who just lost something precious, that’s not Batman it’s the punisher in a funny hat”
-Red from OSP
perfect description lol
Omg wooow woooow!!! Thank you for that line
@ChillyCloth The ending to that movie captured exactly what so many modern interpretations missed
@Rambunctious Dreambirde how is that putting the character in a box it’s the literal main outline of his character. He’s is dark and brooding but wants to help people.
@@plugshirt1762 yep like he can be dark but also has empathy even if he struggles to show it
When was the last time the Joker actually told a JOKE, huh? He's been written as sooo pure E-Vil, that the whole character has been lost.
' ah ha ha ha he he ha ha and I thought my jokes were bad '' LOL!!!!! You are right! ' the killing joke" I think? and the joke was a good one!!!!!!
Maybe back in the 90s. Denny O'Neil at the editor helm gave the writing team a fantastic guide book that kept Batman and his rogues balanced.
Jack Nicholson’s joker
Heath Ledger’s Joker imo had the perfect balance between twisted sense of humor and just twisted
You should listen to “Harley Quinn: Sound Mind” it’s a theatrical podcast production with Christina Ricci. The joker in that is sooo funny. He actually made me laugh. I highly recommend it.
I hate the fact that Scarecrow is so criminally underused. Even when he has the chance to shine, he gets overshadowed by the Joker. Such a pity.
Looking at you Arkham Knight...
The worst part is, Joker overshadowed him because they decided to take a literal approach to Batman and Joker's relationship and him fearing that he'll turn to him, not just lose control but literally turn into him.
Hush was also wasted and relegated to a brief side mission. It's funny because I think if Paul Dini, who was absent from the 3rd game, returned to write he would've handled the story so much better. Because while he didn't create Hush, he wrote his defining story in Heart of Hush where he established the idea of Tommy altering his face to look like Bruce and also wrote Scarecrow comics in the past meaning he could've committed to the idea of making Scarecrow and Hush the main villains.
@@themadtitan7603 agreed. Dini set up some story threads that needed to be finished by him. Both Scarecrow and Hush had big potential… both were wasted in Knight. Someday we’ll see them shining in a prominent role, I sure hope.
@@sr.estevao3859 Hopefully, especially Scarecrow who never seemed like he was ever utilized to his full potential since his creation really. I also hope we one day get a rough set of what Paul Dini's plans for a 3rd Arkham game where,
"Behold Supergirl, everything the light touches is ours to protect."
"But what about that shadowy part?"
"That's Gotham, we don't go there."
"Why not?"
"Batman lives there. He has a tablespoon of kryptonite, a pocket lighter and the creative genius to somehow make that work."
I often get the impression that other superheroes could clean up the situation in Gotham way faster, and make it as nice as Metropolis or Central City. Batman just tells them to go away because of his pride.
@@jiado6893 i mean maybe yeah like superman and the other leagues but i think the reason why they don't is that they've got their own villains to fight but i don't know :/
@@jiado6893 i mean maybe yeah like superman and the other leagues but i think the reason why they don't is that they've got their own villains to fight but i don't know :/
@@jiado6893 Gotham has a lot of white collar criminals. The other super heroes will come, clean the streets in one night and in the next week new crime lord would be fighting other new crime lords to control the streets while the white collar criminals who commands them stay safe and comfy on their mansions. Let´s say that the only way to cleaned it up totally is leveling the whole city and start from scratch. Batman works with Gordon to take on targets specially hard to get. And of course, the super villains.
@@Lex60 I just don't believe any of the League would sit by while Gotham had a nuke hidden inside it, or had to deal with a mutation plague of Man-Bats.
"Joker fatigue is real" someone SAID IT
Yet the best Batman film in twenty years just featured him...
@@anonb4632 make ur own youtube video then
@@anonb4632 Not a 'Batman' movie, a movie with 'Batman' arkwardly showhorned in. The best Batman movie is 'The Dark Knight Rises' and the best Joker is still Heath Ledger (R.I.P.), Mark Hamill would also be a valid choice as the best.
Phoenix Joker is a nice interpretation but it has nothing to do with the Joker we know from the comic books. If this would be a 'Batman' movie we'd have to accept the Joker is like 40 years older than Batman. This guy will be geriatric when Batman is 30... I don't want to live in such a world ;)
@@bobbyb6053 Nothing to do with the comic books? That's probably why it's a better film, it lacks a repetitive formula.
Heath Ledger's Joker is overrated. I can't stand the lip smacking and his rationale isn't convincing. I prefer Nicholson tbh.
@@bobbyb6053 p.s. I agree with you on the age difference. But I still think this is the best DC film in nearly thirty years.
It’s sad when the first Lego Batman game feels more like a authentic Batman experience than recent comics
Why is this so true?
@@hailpickens2454 because they are insanely good
@@justinslaughter8933 PREACH!! my guyy
@@3-fist Preach what
@@justinslaughter8933 how incredibly good and authentic the lego batman movie is
I only half-agree. I want a world that's allowed to change and a Batman who is allowed to heal and work on himself, with a focus on his human adjustment and progress in the world. I really want a Gotham that can change over time, keeping the darkness and underlying horror while opening up the possibility for infrastructural improvement. I hate the idea that he and the city are bound to be stagnant and self-pitying, and would rather allow for some hope in the midst of the horror.
This
Exactly, hope still exists.
agree.
That's why I like self-contained stories outside of main continuity better, they are allowed to properly develop and conclude.
If the horror is broken up by periods of optimism, it makes the horror more impactful. Otherwise the Joker blowing up a school is just “oh, it’s Thursday already?”
"It's not realistic!"
Detroit: I'm boutta ruin this whole man's career.
Detroit needs its own batman
Charles Châtenay for President 1900 or Superman would be better like I like Batman but I don’t want him and his crazy ass over here when I can have a boy scout god
@@grease317 Boy scout God will eventually go mad and create a fascist state in order to stop crime. Or worse, become a soundcloud rapper
@@unregisteredassaultbutterk1185 Or creating a fascist regime AND becoming a soundcloud rapper!
@@janhendrik1829 Injustice detroit
I still think the Animated Series did it best: Take the brooding art deco look of Gotham and ditch the grimdark hopelessness and gratuitous killing. If Silver Age goofiness and Adam West are one end of the dial and Frank Miller is the other, the Animated Series is precisely in the center; the happy medium.
which is exactly why the 1970's and early 1980's are the best era for Batman. Hell, BTAS is largely based on and inspired by 1970's stories.
BTAS excels on so many levels I actively pity every adaptation that follows; the overall DCAU is almost perfect, especially the wrap-up at the end of Justice League. So much great casting, too; everyone talks about Hamill and Conroy, but Tim Daly is a great Superman, Clancy Brown is the perfect Lex Luthor, and the choices going even further - like Jeffrey Combs as the Question? So damn good. And it all feels cohesive for the most part; JL looks like it's made with the same design sensibilities as BTAS, just the animation is cleaner.
The DCAU also perfectly balances the issue of having Batman operate in the League, playing up his intelligence and not being afraid to have him loose to villains - or put the spotlight on lesser characters; by contrast, his presence in the Justice League in the comics feels more about his popularity as a character than any real use for him.
@@MrStath1986 young justice has has followed the tough act of the dcau pretty well and they have a 4th season in the works as well.
@@CartoonManWhoo Yeah, I think the Animated Series is probably most similar to the Batman of the 70's and the 80's. Obviously, the 70's and Denny O'Neil have a major influence, but the works of guys like Len Wein, Gerry Conway, Mike W. Barr and others also had a big influence I think. In fact, those guys even wrote episodes of the series (as did O'Neil).
I wouldn’t say the 90’s Batman books were grimdark and hopeless, they were pretty good for the most part
What made me love Batman? Adam West intoning: "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb!"
Me, too!
Best Batman film ever
I saw it as a kid and it's a genuinely fond memory.
Those comics that are just 3D renders with a "comic" filter over them....make me super uncomfortable, like, they activate my flight instincts
"Why would anybody want to live in Gotham?"
They don't. And that's the entire point.
There's three types of people in Gotham:
The most majority are people who don't have any option. They are poor and have no hopes of getting out of the city.
The next group are the criminals who can only exist in a place where there's no many helpless people to exploit. This group is occupied by organized crime, costumed villains, and the corrupt police.
And the final, smallest group, is made up of those who want to save the city. This is occupied almost exclusively by Batman and Commissioner Gordon.
I don’t think this is realistic. There’s a population of ten million.
And also the rich elites who benefit from the exploitation
Addison Roberts: It's not supposed to be realistic. Bartan is a fantasy comic book, with insane villains (many of them with suoerpowers) battling a man in a Halloween costume. Gotham is a fantastical version of NYC during the great depression.
@laz kar it feels like a real city because of its characterisation and not its logistics
Addison Roberts And yet 7-9 million people lived in NYC both during Depression and 1970s crime wave. And still do in Detroit.
"Batman is getting fat"
*shows a picture of batman with abs*
By comic book standards, that IS fat. In comics any woman who doesn't have visible ribs and any guy who has only mildly-defined abs are as close to unattractive as artists can bring themselves to depict.
to be fair dark knight returns batman is a lot more stocky and stout in stature, kind of rocking a strong fat vibe like yeah he'd kick your ass but not the slim and agile (implying) toned muscle you usually get
@@morganqorishchi8181 comic book artists not only hold very high body standards, but all seem to be very horny for said characters
@@quasarulas3968 that was the point nruce was old and out of shape
@@Rudolphgaylord As they should.
The Robert Pattinson batman movie looks like it'll be pretty dark, gothic, horror. Can't wait
@@TheYCS08 I've been watching the DC cartoon universe movies or whatever it's called. They r actually pretty good. Soo much better than the live action of dc and marvel movies
I just want to have fun with superheroes again.
There's nothing gothic about its aesthetic, its just grimdark like Nolan's.
@@erikschwartz1214 yea its more like Finchers seven
I am very excited about this movie. I’m glad they used London or places in England with cgi on top of it to make it look more Gothic. Gotham shouldn’t be Oakland, Chicago, New York or the Bronx or whatever. It should be a statuesque hell city.
I think a big problem with batman and his rogues' gallery is that a lot of writers look at what made these characters special, namely being psychologically complex and morally gray and try to replicate that in the most shallow way possible, which results in everyone being a complete sociopath with no relatability what so ever.
For me what made the joker scary was that he was just an insane man, he was something that any of us could become if we had a series of bad day. He was relatable in that sense, now a days, he feels like an unnecessarily edgy character that is there simply because he brings the money in. Same thing with batman. He was always morally and psychologically complex, but no matter how low he fell, his core was good, or at the very least, his core was interesting. That's what makes characters like batman or Victor von doom interesting, they have interesting stuff going on beneath them. Being a sociopath with little to no redeeming qualities isn't interesting.
TAS, Joker, and even the new Pattinson film ground these characters with actual empathetic mental illnesses. It’s not the ailments themselves that drive these characters to desperation, but their abuse and torment, and that makes them all the more human. Chalking their characters up to just “lol they’re insane” is an insult both to the characters and to people living with these illnesses who engage with the media
@@umjammerlammy9993 2019's Joker is a offense to the character and has nothing to do with it aside from the name.
I disliked the need to explain Joker from the writers (The 3 Jokers for example).
True, he deserves an origin, but not a set one. Basically multiple choice, so that it feels close to being human yet also like it’s from another being.
@@footl0se As much as I admire Joaquin Phoenixs amazing performance in that movie, I'll have to agree with you. He doesn't feel like the joker in any way, he just feels like any psychopathic incel
@@omnipotentbanana1576 but a movie called Psychopathic Incel wouldn’t sell as many tickets
The Mad Hatter is seriously underused and he s a great, creepy character.
Absolutely. There’s so many ways that he could be very upsetting, the idea that he takes a person and turns them into something else is an idea that is super creepy that has almost always been glossed over with him. You could easily do an amazing horror story staring him, as well as most of the under used villains. I still would love an adult Batman book that was aimed at a horror audience, I think it would sell crazy well.
DC totally misses the cult leader/dictator possibilities with the Hatter! He should also stalk celebrities, since he started with a crush on a coworker in Batman the Animated Series. Same with Poison Ivy! She controls plants and minds, but isn't a drug kingpin, dictator or cult leader, either! She could have a drug cartel, groupies and a vertical farm/megachurch! I'd also put her in a ghillie suit, floral sarong and flower in her hair or club camo catsuit and ivy and floral tattoos all over her.
There was a miniseries called Joker's Asylum that featured a Mad Hatter story that could've been a story from a 70's horror comic. If you've never read it, I highly suggest it!
I liked how Hatter was implemented in the Gotham tv series. The idea of him being a very skilled hypnotist that doesn't need mind control tech in order to do his work makes him a lot more imposing and difficult to contain.
@@darlalathan6143 You know, come to think of it, in some of the outside media, they did that with Bane. In Arkham Origins, his followers look to him as a quasi religious leaders. Similarly, in the Dark Knight Rises, his followers would gladly die for his goals as instructed; he even gets a big part of the city worked up in his eloquent speeches in the city. I guess an unstoppable, intelligent beast like Bane would be able to be very charismatic
I always thought that Gotham was perfectly shown in the Tim Burton films and the Animated Series. I liked it because the city looks classy, and has that 1940s optimistic futurism to it, but is really horrible when you take a look at the streets. I like Gotham classy on the outside, but really filthy on the inside. Not too gross, bloody, and gory, but just an atmosphere that shows that Gotham is really deadly, but is hidden behind an almost utopian city structure. It's got an irony to it that I like. A city built with a design of hope for the future that is been relegated into a cesspool of crime and evil. And the last semi-optimist is a man who dresses like a Bat. I don't know. That's how I personally like Gotham city.
@Jack Fortuna Yeah, I agree. Besides the criminals, I would've never guessed that the Batman Beyond Gotham needed a hero like Batman even in it. It's so futuristically advanced in a shiny, undamaged sort of way. The streets of Gotham should be just as filthy as the villains that inhabit them.
Agreed. Loved Tim Burton's depiction of Gotham, and BTA's version of Gotham as well. I enjoyed Nolan's films, but always felt his Gotham was severely lacking in character, mood, and mystique.
It depends. I like that style too but only if the tone is more campy and larger- than-life. For a film like Joker, Gotham needed to be gross and polluted and gritty. If not, the story wouldn't have worked.
@@crod9905 I agree. That was Todd Phillips' vision. I wasn't really a big fan of Joker, but I respect his vision. I'm personally more of a fan of the more stylized Gotham. And apparently Matt Reeves is combining the more realistic Gotham with a more stylized Gotham, and I'm quite excited.
@@mkd58media Yeah, it didn't stand out. The Nolan movies could have just called it New York and I would've bought it. Gotham shouldn't be designed like a normal city. It should have it's own style, almost a character in a sense.
There are two types of Batman:
1) Gritty lone man waging a war on evil itself.
2) Tragic man trying to rebuild a family in vain.
These don’t usually coexist. They can, but only with high skill and understanding of Bruce’s psyche
Honestly, I think we just need a balance between These visions. He can smile every once and a while, and he can definitely have Allies. But they should still explore character motives and depict Gotham as a nightmare scape. If we can find a balance of this, we will probably be well off.
You’re not kidding with the Joker Fatigue. 3 Jokers, Harley Quinn, Joker’s Daughter, The Batman Who Laughs, and those two clowns from doomsday clock.
Did DC make a blood pact to present the joker (or one of his many representatives) as consistently as the heroes with titles?
Haha yeah it’s kind of crazy how much of a presence he has had in the past decade of the books, I’ve loved some of them. But overall I hate it because it takes so much time away from other cool characters, and those cool appearances would have been even more impactful if had been gone awhile before they happened.
@@InPraiseofShadows That's very true. Sometimes, Joker's presence is justified. The Arkham games made it work because the focus of that narrative is the sick relationship between them, and there were also other characters who had an important presence, Snyder's run made it work just because of how beautifully sick and twisted it all was
@Rohan Clancy morrison is a hack
seriously, and outside Detective Comics & Batman & Robin -
when is the last time you see Riddler ( I guess Jokes and Riddles now) , Penquin or even Two-Face in the Main Batman book? it's always The Joker. always.
I can't remember the last time I read a Batman with Two-Face.
It's easy to write for Joker.
“It is a mistake to fancy that horror is associated inextricably with darkness, silence, and solitude” H.P. Lovecraft
Lovecraft knows what's up.
Cold air.
@@shadowangel6359 mmmm dont know about that
@@shadowangel6359 Besdies racial issues
@@AC-gm6dr Yes.
Besides racial issues.
“Miller was the primary reason that when you think of gotham city, you think this-“
**gets a Rainbow High commercial**
As much as like horror Batman it can get tiring after a while. I love that Batman found a family and friends. I like that there are some light in Batman's life and that at his darkest moments there's a family there to help him. The horror will always be there in the past stories and his story will always circle back to it.
Also the fact that friends and family are what can keep a man grounded and going no matter how bad things get, without that love he’d become like the villains. This man said as much when talking about how Batman would have become like them without Alfred’s care.
i feel like there needs to be a healthy balance but as of now with the snyder just not in batman character and the comics way too light also i prefer him being alone not wearing god armour aka hellbat
It just doesn't feel right, he can sidekicks and people in his life that make him happy there's just too much. Batman has always been a gothic hero, everything about batman is focused on that. So diving to much into the happy side of batman kind of ruins that. It's like if for a while Spiderman was dark and brooding, he wasn't happy anymore and only felt pain. You could do that with his character but if that went to far with that (especially in the main cannon) and then for years all we got was a dark version of Spiderman that never smiled, no one would like that, it doesn't fit him. You can explore the opposites of characters but if that's all they do for years with little signs of what people liked before then it kinda of ruins the character. IDK
@@Riverside_23 There's definitely some merit to it though.
Batman doesn't have to be purely dark and gloomy all the time. That's the primary focus, sure, but there has to be some light to the darkness. In the case of Gotham, Batman himself is the light. If you don't have that, you end up with Grimdark.
Batman can't really be happy forever, but he can have moments of warmth and happiness with people close to him.
I'd say that for the sake of it, these people should be restricted to Alfred, Robin, Commissioner Gordon, and sometimes Catwoman. Maybe Nightwing and Barbara Gordon if they're present.
In a way, Batman, Gotham, and the series more or less reflect each other on what all of them should be.
"Gloomy, depressing, fucked up, but still hopeful enough to keep going, despite everything."
@@Lechgang yep keep Batman dark but also have him capable of showing empathy. If I remember he comforted a girl on the doors of death showing she wasn’t alone, which is why Waller did project Batman beyond in DCAU. Loved that Batman
Bat-mite from Batman: The Brave And The Bold said it best:
Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitide of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation but it certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger crying out for mommy and daddy
That has to be one of my favorite quotes from any Batman media
@Felicia Mihanovich I’d say Morrison’s run is well done, it just was going for something different. It was aiming for an adventurous homage to Batman’s silver age. Just cause he didn’t personally like it doesn’t mean it wasn’t well executed
Besides those Easter bunnies looked really scary right!
@@Bolbi145 Bruce Timm: "....meh."
That is actually a very a historical take on Batman. Batman wasn't a tortured character until the 70s. In the 30s and 40s he was a pretty standard pulp hero.
There are things I both strongly agree with and disagree with you here on. In my view, Batman doesn't only need to be about a dark, brooding, solitary figure, waging an endless, futile war against twisted reflections of himself in a horror story. Is this my favorite interpretation of the character? Yeah, it's pretty close. Scott Snyder's run is also a big favorite of mine as well. But I don't think it needs to be the only version, even in the comics. When you get to the core of Batman's character, he is a man who watched his parents die and wants to ensure what happened to them, never happens to them ever again. So no one has to go what he went through. So long as a story stays true to that vision, it's Batman. That's why the tv show Batman: Brave and the Bold, is as true to Batman as The Dark Knight Returns.
Brave and the Bold isn't a gothic horror story at all, but it is no less true to Batman as a character and his world. This is why I don't really have a problem with Grant Morrison wanting to show Batman making Gotham a better place as a whole, not just on a small scale. Or the ideal that Batman represents can inspire people all around the world to be like him. I also don't have a problem with the Bat-family, because they show the natural evolution of his character. To someone who was afraid of getting close to anyone because he lost the two most important people in his life and didn't want to be hurt again. To someone willing to open again emotionally to people, and rebuild the family he lost. Are there too many incidental ones that creators make and never bothering fleshing out and then get the thrown to the wayside? Like Harper, Duke, Batwing, etc. Yeah, but the core idea of them is extremely important to Batman. And the ones like Dick, Jason, Barb, Tim, Damian, Steph, Cass, Batwoman, are actually well-developed characters when done right.
I'm not a fan of Tom King's run either. But not because it isn't a Gothic horror story. But because his portrayal of Batman comes off as a suicidal, sociopathic manchild, who entirely emotionally dependant on a single woman for any sanity or happiness despite having a huge family he loves and cares about and make him happy. Who is reckless and unintelligent, rarely using his detective skills unless the story needs him to be. And lacks really any heroic or noble traits, who is usually difficult to root for or be invested in because he's beating his friends and allies and acting like a crazy person. And is so easily broken despite having been through so much already. The pacing also really slow and boring, with not much happening and has serve tonal issues. King wants to be the next Alan Moore but lacks the understanding of the characters he writes to do the deconstructions Moore did with Watchman. Honestly, after King's run I want something more fun and lighthearted. Where Batman is a noble hero, who while being deeply flawed, cares about the people closest to him again.
One big thing I agree with you on the lack of use of Batman's rogue's gallery. And how characters like Scarecrow, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, and others often feel like set pieces or props, rather than characters who have their own major storylines. I've had less a of a problem with Riddler and Two-Face as of late. Two-Face has had major stories in Tomasi's Batman and Robin run, Snyder's All-Star Batman, and one in Detective recently. Riddler got ones in Zero Year and King's run (even if I really don't like that story) But yeah creators don't do enough with them. Despite all the issues, I don't really have a problem with where Batman is right now. Because there are so many other creators doing the Batman I love. I like Tomasi's current Detective run, Batman: White Knight series, Batman: The Man Who Laughs series, Batman: Last Knight on Earth just came out. There's more than enough to hold me over until King leaves.
Sorry, this is long, just a lot to say on these things cause I love Batman so much.
Your 2nd paragraph is why I guess people think "The Lego Batman" is one of his best portrayals in media and gets the character right.
Hey! Sorry for the late reply I have been out of the house for a while and wanted to wait till I got back to my computer to respond. I really like a few different lighthearted Batman media portrayals, but I really prefer the darker stuff with the character. I was conflicted on how to structure this video, I was very much inspired to make it after Bruce hit Tim in issue 71. I had wanted to make a video for a while about Batman, but that pushed it for me. But at the same time, I didn't want to make a video that just boiled it down to Tom King = bad. I wanted to kind of talk about the other issues going on with the character which made me focus on the basics that I like the most and what I personally find the strongest with the character in his comic book form. I deeply love my dark Batman takes, but there are some lighter Batman related works that I do like. Like I love JL8 and Lego Batman, I think both of those are super clever things. Although I heard that the guy who makes JL8 is problematic, but I haven't looked into it at all so I have no clue if there is any fact in that or not.
I would be down for a smaller Bat family, I think that could be done a lot better than some of the current stuff. Like I am sometimes down with Robins being in stories, such as Dark Victory for instance. I think Robin is one of the strongest aspects that that book has besides its art and use of villains. But overall I don't like how many members there currently is at all, I think the most true Batman is the solitary one, which is the one that I love to see most in the main book. But having people close to him can be done well for sure! I will always love Alfred haha.
Thank you for watching and for your detailed response, it means a lot to me!
@@crod9905 I don't think they'd be wrong for having that opinion. I think Lego Batman gets his character better than any live-action movie ever has to be frank. Which is frustrating to say considering it's a parody of him.
@@Batknight12 I think it's because the lego version has a personality. The live action versions are either dull and forgettable, or angry, brooding caricatures of Batman.
@@InPraiseofShadows Hey no problem. Sure I get where you're coming from. I prefer dark, horror Batman as well. I just wanted to say I don't think the lighter versions of him are any less valid. Batman isn't like, say, Berserk. Which is the singular vision of one person. A lighter version of Bersek wouldn't work. But Batman has been around for 80 years and been written by god knows how many people and reinterpreted so many ways. I think a core of who he is as a character is there, as I said, it just doesn't come from the tone of his stories. I think my preferred Bat-family would be Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and Barbara. With the other ones showing up rarely. I think once you start including more it tends to go a little overboard. Though the nice thing with Batman is he's so popular you can have a Bat-family book where they're all together or a book where he works alone.
Anyways, thank you for making this video. It's always nice to see someone passionate about the character.
The best thing to ever happen to Scarecrow was when he got a yellow ring during Blackest Night. Wish they had done a lot more with that because it suits him so well.
1000℅ agreed
They actually let him use a yellow ring in the rebirth green lanterns series. It was great
The problem with modern Batman stories is precisely that: an excessive fixation with grimdark and hopeless paranoia. Stories like these usually make for great psychological tension and emotional drama.
But they are essentially a rabbit hole of narrative depression. Things never get better, until the very final panels.
I for one prefer comics where Batman exerts a multilateral active presence in Gotham but in a more diverse fashion, either as Batman, through unstoppable determination and unrelentless pursuit, or as Bruce Wayne with wide financial and institutional support for his city.
38:37 In the comics Poison Ivy used to be a great character in her own right but now she mostly just shows up as Harley's bit on the side.
Or just evidence for conviction to hornyjail.
Yeah, DC always ignores PI's cult leader, terrorism, and drug dealer possibilities, lol!
I like seeing the two of them together but it needs to not be a Harley story only, I’d love to see content of the two of them BOTH being incredible
@@melz6126 Yeah not so much harley I think its time for other better villians to get the spotlight and attention like the Riddler hard to write but really good or two face. Well the whole main rouge gallery.
@@johnf.kennedy5904 I loved when Riddler and Penguin went legit in Batman: Detective Comics and Gotham City Sirens. It lead to more interesting character interactions, and made sense for their personal motivations.
I think a balance really needs to be established. He wasn't always a dark edgelord with no real man under the bat. Nor was he the rainbow of bad goofy story lines as he was in his early days.
I think it's why the original run of Batman the Animated series (I'm looking at you Kevin Conroy) is it showed the battles with Darkness he had, but he *was* struggling. He struggled with darkness, but also he's just generally a good person.
Trauma alone didn't make him.
I love your work. Keep these amazing videos coming.
Batman the animated series was a fantastic show, cartoon and series, I don't think there is a more perfect product singly focused on batman that captures him as perfectly as that series did.
That said, what's interesting is how in batman beyond, years on from the show, it shows a far more disgruntled, bitter Bruce Wayne who lost his softer side decades ago, and now only lives for what he sees as his mission.
However batman beyond exists as its own separate entity that's connected to BTAS but isn't vital to appreciate the original show
@@MrOrcshaman I kind of see them as different timelines? Either way, I love both. And I love the Static Shock crossover.
I agree, however I don't agree with everything he said. I mean, it's dc comics, batman exists within dc comics; so if metropolis looks like a modern city and coast city looks like a modern city, then if Gotham looked extremely different people would notice and take issue with it. It wouldn't make any sense. With major comics, characters evolve from era to era. You can always make an argument as to why you want this character to be exactly the way they were under one writer, but if they never changed and evolved, the public would get bored. For me personally, I wish dc would bring back "elseworld" and marvel would bring back "what if?", with that we can explore stories of characters written differently from different perspectives without having to mess with main Canon. Idk, like I said before, I agree with some stuff, but I find myself disagreeing with more
@@MrOrcshaman that’s always been my favorite version of Batman because he was a badass noir crime fighter, but he was still human. He still caught a cold, makes jokes, watches cartoons, and is able to empathize with others. It’s the perfect balance.
I found that Englehart got a great balance in how he writes Batman/Bruce.
That Serious House Joker is the most terrifying rendition I've seen, holy shit
My perfect Batman story concept.
The joker is dead.
Every member of his rouges gallery could have done it, and Batman needs to figure out who did it.
OR...
We finally see the "Suicide Course" mentioned in The Killing Joke come to a head, and we then focus on other Batman villians.
This way we;
1. End Joker fatigue.
2. Focus on the rest of his incredible rouges gallery.
It’s the idea that makes the most sense only problem is they’ll never do it because joker makes bank
So how long we keeping him dead
Joker is very cool In my oppinon but I don't like too much.
@@hiruyabebaw807 a good while at least.
Long enough so that when he comes back he isnt the only main batman villian to be repeatedly used.
Great idea! The Joker dies... And Batman keeps hallucinating with him, making him arguably the most important villain of the videogame still! 🤡🤡🤡
Robin: *puts a hand on Batman's shoulder to let him know he cares*
Batman: my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined
Angel With The Fiery Sword I love that reference
The episode of the New Batman Adventures where Bruce was feeling happy and wondering what the feeling was and when Tim said "It's called happiness" Bruce frowning and saying "Whatever it is I like it" was funny.
Batman's internal dialogue: Who is this imposter and where is the real Robin? ;) :P
The real Robin would know I'm not into that touchie feelie moments... XD
@@Xehanort10 his reply makes no sense to me, something like "i had forgotten what happiness is" would be better, because he was happy before, he just wasn't for a long time
I kinda like the idea that Gotham improves over time due to their efforts. Crime may not be stopped forever but that doesn’t mean Gotham can’t start to look more like the other heroes cities.
I don't like the idea of the gothic buildings being removed, make me think of gentrification, it takes away the history. Imagine if the city of New York declared they would demolish and replace the Chrysler building because it was old and didn't fit the 'modern landscape'
@@michaelwalsh9616 You mean, Gotham hasn't gentrified, all this time?? Like all real cities do?? LOL!
I don't know. Gotham in itself is a core "character". Change it too much and that character is no more.
@@Casshio he even made a point, by showing how similar it looked cities like metropolis and star
If anything, I approve of like... New buildings built out from old ones, like fungus on fallen trees.
I love Batman: The Animated Series. Its art deco motif gives satisfies the impression that it’s not our world but nonetheless a real world, as it was pointed out here. Also, there is still grittiness in the stories and the darkness is there (literally and figuratively) but it is also palatable to a younger audience. It also set the standard for superhero animated series and even won awards.
Fun fact: They drew the animation on black paper (instead of the standard white), that’s why the blacks are really dark and shadows are deep.
I have no idea when Batman came into my life, I remember him always being there, there's a picture of me somewhere in the Attic of me as a little kid, playing with a Batman and Joker toy, in a Batman tent...
I suppose it was just always meant to be
Personally, I don't like the idea of Batman and Joker being this big Thing. Even disregarding the sexual/romantic undertones, which I'm not particularly fond of anyway, it gives such little room for the other villains in Batman's rogues gallery to have their own impact. I want to see more stories with Mr.Freeze, The Riddler, Two-Face, Penguin. And for goodness sake, I want Batman to be the world's greatest Detective again, instead of just being this plot-based mcguffin locator.
Years ago back in the 1990's, there was a Batman series where B, R, and Al left Gotham for close to two months to chase down some crime family. Poison Ivy moved into the green house when the men were gone. There was a housing staff cleaning & polishing the wood work, nothing bad happen cause Ivy was a good girl.
Also it was a behind the scene running gag where Ivy would just walk through Wayne Manor or stay in the green house. In one short series Ivy " dated " Bruce Wayne and she likes to visited Alfred's gardens. People tend to forget the tongue & cheek humor .
Cheek out the Knight Fall & Rise series. Bruce orders pizza and offers the delivery guy $50 to show him how to use the washer and drier cause his butler is out of town.
As for the greatest Detective again, I remember comics from the late 1970's where there was five to seven short stories in them. Batman had to solve crimes without the aid of wifi smart phone computers. In one story Bruce was out playing tennis at a high end country club and there was a murder in the bathroom,
if you looked at the waxed floor at the right angle you could see the boot prints and where the floor was scraped when a suit case was picked up. The short story was about Cold War Russian Corporate Espionage.
The reason I will always remember that story is, my grand parents didn't allow shoes in the house cause of foot prints, carpet wear and two women talking about " Divorce Alimony."
Two Face is a more nuanced and fleshed out character in the animated series
While I agree. Joker touches Batman on a way different level than any of the other characters. The Joker challenges Batman in such a way the others can't and he thrives because Batman can't kill him or even lock him up for too long. So, naturally the stories just leaned into this direction.
@@TallicaMan1986 not really. The joker only fills that role cause he was the first villain, correct me if i'm wrong. Had riddler been batman's first villain he'd have filled the Joker's role. Just make riddler an anarchist like the Joker, and have his riddles be a side thing just like Joker's jokes.
@@galarstar052 the thing is though. I think The Riddler is more "Rational"
Grant Morrison: you know I like my comics realistic
Me: *stares awkwardly at my doom patrol omnibus books*
Lol
His run of DP is most of the time word salad, acid trip madness haha. Realistic my ass, and I love his run on them
He was joking with that.
Some artists stay the same throughout the years. Others change, not wanting to be trapped doing variations of the same damn thing. I think Mr. Morrison is the latter, usually for better but not this time.
David Bowie was a legend at reinventing himself. Tom Hanks was once the funny guy in Big. Steven King created a pseudonym, Richard Bachman, so he could explore new directions in horror.
Plus, Batman is possibly the most grounded major superhero, so some a greater measure of realism is in order. The Brotherhood of Dada would be really far from your typical Batman villains
@@jackalope2302 not really, high concept but Barman is no stranger to mystic stuff and superpowers.
This is something I've been saying for years now. My poor fiancé has heard me gripe about this numerous times. As a lifelong Bat-fanatic, I've often complained that Gotham should be full of Gothic architecture, ambiance, and horror. The modern adaptations have forgotten this. These directors have also forgotten that Gotham is as much of a character as Batman/Bruce Wayne. It is integral to getting the feel of the setting Batman operates and struggles within. My fave modern interpretation thus far are the Batman Arkham-verse video games.
Because the Arkham games are just the adult video game version of the animated series that’s why it feels right
I've always summed it up like this:
There are two main interpretations of Batman. One is an emotionally scarred detective who likes to dress like dracula. The second is a brooding, stubbly faced, tactical crime fighter who breaks people's legs. I think most interpretations of the character have some of both, but usually lean a little closer on one or the other. To me, Batman is definitely at his best when he's more the former than the latter.
I mean, do people really WANT to live in sections of Detriot or the slums of Chicago? Just like in real life, you have lower/middle/ and upper-class, all living different qualities of life in the same shared city. People are all victim of circumstance. Gotham should be a character within in itself
And that's one area where Snyder and Capullo's run excels. They made Gotham just as much of a character as Batman.
detroit is fine
@@Shine28 😂😂😂👌🏻
this is exactly why Gotham should look less like “generic modern city #10” and more like the city from Se7en
Vesky Yes. Also ayy fellow RoachDoggJR
It essentially did on the series "Gotham".
It’s fictional. It should look like whatever the writer needs it to. Hell, modern architecture infringing on older gothic buildings and the gentrification that comes with it would be a hella interesting story
Its ideal look is more like a Victorian era, rain-soaked, gloomy London, IMO...
There is the idea that Se7en is actually supposed to be set in Gotham so...heh
Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth is one of my favorite comics of all time, and this video gave me a new appreciation of it. Thanks for that!
Matt Reeves’s The Batman understands the message of Batman fighting a endless war on crime, looking at the nihilism in the face & going out your own way. Things may not get better but Batman can still do some good for people despite the endless suffering they go through. To make the world in a better place with the time that is given to you. It understands the tragic & hopeful double edge sword of Batman while bringing the darkness & horror back to Gotham that were completely absent in the modern comics. Much like Arkham City it feels more like Batman to me than many of the recent comics after the fantastic Snyder & Capullo run have been. And the comics can be just a good but they just feel like typical superhero stories now.
you should read batman the imposter
@@randommonkey4900 Never heard of it. What is it about?
@@nicholasbodo4327 it’s a short 3 issue series that came out not to long ago with amazing art and noir. Someone has dressed up as Batman and has been killing criminals. This Bruce isn’t the most stable like in the movie but Alfred left him when he was young. Much better then most modern Batman comics recommend it 100%
*Reeves’*
@@bucketstuck7137 Thanks for the correction
I also noticed that a LOT of the recent artwork is actually just posed CG character models; they feel like mannequins cosplaying instead of characters
I think that's Mikel Janin's artwork. It's pretty nice, but I wish the stories they were attached to were better.
Something else that's also popular by modern artists is using a 3D program to generate backgrounds such as buildings.
While efficient, I feel it eliminates the sporadic part of doing art.
The Bat and Cat wedding will be one of the biggest fan rage moments for years to come. So many side stories and other bat family characters were brought in only for it to go nowhere. What was the point?! Seem like some big slap to the face and punishment to the readers who dared to believe that Bruce would actually get married to someone that he loved. Like "Haha! Batman never gets a happily ever after! You should know that by now!'
I hated the end, as well.
Lmfao true XD both stories really fucked me up.
Thank. GOD. Tom King is off Batman 🙏😂
Scott Snyder: the best Batman writer named Snyder
The only Batman writer named Snyder tbh. Batfleck may have dressed like Batman but he definitely wasn’t Batman.
@@cam8584 Too bad considering a lot of people loved the Batfleck suit and even commented that it looked the most comic book accurate by far
The thing with Gotham is that you’ve gotta have both. You can have the neon sin-city aspect while also having the damned gothic aspect. Just like people, Batman has different aspects. But I’ll agree with you that modern Batman focuses on the bay family far too much, and Tom King’s run was poor.
"WHAT KILLED THE DINOSAURS!???? THE ICE AGE!!!!!"
HEY!
......chill
Dinner's going to be *cold* tonight!
😂😂😂😂
COOL PARTY
Stay cool, bird boy!
I’ve always liked the idea that no one normal DOES live in Gotham. That was kind of the reason why there’s so many insane people that keep popping up in Gotham.
your breakdown of the batman villains' and how each is a dark reflection of Bruce Wayne's psychology is genius and changed my life.
Deconstruction and Realism are nine times out of ten the first words in a death sentence for any reboot/remake/reimagining in this day and age it seems.
Typically, deconstructions are at their best when paired with reconstructions. Acknowledging that certain tropes have logical flaws, but also acknowledging that these flaws are not something that can't be dealt with, or otherwise additionally showing the realistic positives of certain tropes.
True realism is neither sunshine and rainbows, nor doom and gloom 100% of the time. There's always a time for hope, and always a time for despair.
I just want to point out to anyone wondering about the thumbnail. It isn't a version of the Joker. It is the character from the 1928 film "The Man Who Laughs."
I feel bad that I havent watched that film yet, Ive been meaning to for ages.
doodily doo it’s pretty sad if I can remember correctly
The best Joker that never was...
Gwynplaine is the name of the character
A major inspiration for the Joker, if I'm not mistaken.
Grant Morrison seems unaware that the South side of Chicago exists
I think he also realizes that The Loop exists in Chicago as well. I think Gotham should have gutters AND penthouses like major cities do. The thing is, there is crime and stories in both and I think Scott Snyder found that in his run with both Court of Owls and the series that took place with Harper Rowe and Duke Thomas. To me, there is room for both in Batman's side of the universe. Some of the city can be developed and shiny, and you can have the grime and tall towers. The writers this video mentions focuses on one over the other.
I think you sort of missed the point of Grant Morrisons point about Gotham.
I think the point he was trying to make is that the absolute state of the cities criminality and vileness would have a difficult time persisting under the guarding of Batman, his allies and a really moral Police commissioner.
The issue isn't that the fact that people still live there and that it doesn't make sense for people to live there, the issue is that Gotham could not remain an absolute den of scum and villainy if there were legitimately good people facing them down.
That doesn't mean they will ever truly BEAT crime. But it does mean that maybe portraying a place that is actually improved by good people trying to do hood things might be better than saying "yeah these good people in positions of power legitimately trying to improve things makes no meaningful difference."
That’s how I’ve been feeling lately with Batman, Gotham is completely stagnant so it’s cool that Batman gets to punch joker for the 170th iteration but Gotham is permanently stuck in hell unable to shake any of the villains that have been beaten hundreds of time. It feels weird to to say but focusing on a really tight setting like just the asylum feels fresher than subjecting the whole city to same prescription of apocalypse
If Gotham isn’t even gothic and moody what’s the point ? Look at how Gotham is portrayed in the 80s and 90s it was perfect but everything in this video form the modern comics makes Gotham so bland and no different then any normal city at night time and it doesn’t have any moody feel to it I love gotham in Tim burton’s movies and the animated series and Arkham city they all have that same feel that doesn’t exist in the modern comics at all and all the batfamily being present makes it seem like a lame sitcom the Arkham games had the batfamily but they used them correctly and they didn’t ruin the mood of batman and Gotham
I feel like the Arkham Asylum art isn’t just nightmarish, but nightmarishly beautiful. It evokes similar vibes that album covers by goth and industrial bands like early The Cure and Nine Inch Nails have.
I could never agree more with you on the topic of the Joker. Yes, we know that he's the most famous villain and opposite to Batman, but I want to see other villains shine for once. I feel like part of the reason they overuse him is because he's made so much money outside of comics. We've seen great actors put a special twist on this character which so many loved and the writers wanted to capitalize on this character's popularity.
Scarecrow is villain I always thought was cool but seemed to never get main antagonist line up. It'd be cool to see more story arcs with him.
Phoenix's take on Joker is the best Batman-related film in decades. I take the Lego films more seriously than the rest of the crap.
actually is popular because he is easy for directors like christopher nolan who have no interest in the batman methos,
think about it no one likes a crazy clown yet we all know what clowns are supposed to be like and what dysfunctional looks like making the joker an easy character to act no actor has gone wrong doing the joker two face and the riddler are a bit harder to do.
Honestly, I think people just love Joker and as an artist I'd would only work on a batman comic if I got to draw the joker because he's just awesome.
@@thatunicornhastheaudacity Plus the mental aspect of his "power" /chemical would be an interesting aspect to explore, as well...
The problem with keeping the Batman comics as such a horror story is its presence in the greater DC Comics context. Why would the Justice League allow Gotham to stay this madhouse of a city when they are personal friends with the guy who watches over it? You see a few episodes of the Animated series where this is kind of brought up- when they beat Bane by having Superman dress up as Batman and fight him. And once that is brought up even once, the question in any Dark Knight Returns scenario becomes- why did the other superheroes let this get this bad? When one of them is already being a vigilante there, it becomes less easy to justify the others refraining from interfering, and it takes either very clever writing or very bad writing for people like the Joker to stay scary when the Flash and Wonder Woman and Superman are showing up and cleaning house. The darker Gotham you want... CAN'T work as well in the same bright world of the other heroes.
Even if you used the excuse Marvel used (the big heroes are fighting in space or another dimension), you have the problem with Batman himself being too powerful. He can beat pretty much anything and anyone with a spoon if he had training, so if the League was fighting Darkseid, they would have to bring him along.
The reasoning for that which I rarely see explored is that Batman just won't let them. In Justice League, early on he only shows up when something is so big it threatens Gotham as well. Eventually he gets roped into being a regular part of the crew because the threats just keep growing exponentially. They touch on the idea of him being exclusive, but it gets dropped very quickly.
But they don't explore how Batman would handle say, Green Lantern dealing with a larger attack by The Royal Flush Gang for example that threatens the eastern seaboard. What if Batman simply wouldn't let anybody else deal with it? What if he sees Gotham as his problem and his responsibility, and thus he has to be the one to clear up any issues if they extend beyond Gotham? That if Superman or Cyborg or Plastic Man resolve the crisis, Batman views that as a failure? What if Gotham was such a dangerous place simply because Batman was so stubborn and so full of pride that he would sooner sabotage outside help than accept it?
That just means Batman should really be in his own universe. It makes the most sense.
maybe superheroes work like drug dealers
Let’s just put a fishbowl over Gotham, keep those nice little colors off of it
I started reading Batman in 1958, so I've seen him go through a lot of changed -- beginning with the "new look," which replaced the two-dimensional, 1940's style artwork. DC even polled their readers to see which style they preferred, and the more "realistic" "new look" won.
wait till this guy watch THE BATMAN
Personally I really liked how the made the villains background characters in the games, in arkham city you could go anywhere in the city and feel like you are intruding in on one of their spaces. For example of you go down into the sewer you'll find killer crock because that's his home and you are just passing, it really feels as if they all just 'life' in Gotham.
I wouldn’t say “life in Gotham” is a good way to describe the Arkham games since the city is always empty lol. I would love a game where citizens don’t leave the city and I can actually free roam through Gotham and be Batman
@@johnp.smithasimpleman7281 The issue is as simple as running over civilians in the Batmobile. There's no way you could make a game mechanic that prevents that. You could make civilians invulnerable, or even untargetable, but you could never make Batmobile not destroy them when you git them full-speed lol. It could be pretty funny though.
DRL CA Lol I get that, but I’m pretty sure they could find a way to make it work. Even if they remove the batmobile
Grant Morrison did NOT take away the Gothic Gotham City, that was an editorial decision that happened during the plotting of No Man's Land when Luthor helped rebuild the city. Morrison just put emphasis on this part in his stories.
Just look at the way Gotham City is pictured in Batman's comic books nowadays... It's exactly as he said, the city lost its dark aspects...
@@Myers_Johan did you even read the comment you replied to?
@@jakejutras5420 Yeah I'm just emphasising the fact Gotham is not what one day it was.
God I know it's been nearly two years but thank you for making this video
You honestly hit the nail on the head for me so many times in regards to Batman himself, Gotham City, too many members of the Bat-Family, underused iconic villains (Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, Penguin, Scarecrow etc.) Joker fatigue and Grant Morrison
I love it
It epitomises everything I've been frustrated about with Batman comics.
Love to see an update on this, the new Writer James Tyrion V has a background of almost all horror and seems to be bringing back everything you like about Batman
Tbe problem with modern Batman stories os he's treated like a god when he's supposed to be a skilled detective. His overwhelming presence in the comics ruins other dc comics stories imo. The fact that he is at the center of everything makes DC feel less like universe and more like One city with some DLC aka Superman, JLA, GL, Flash, & etc. The creator of Black Lightning commented something similar a few years ago that Batmans overexposure in DC comics ruins DC comics as a universe. For example i can read multiple books at marvel and not feel like a single character is the center of the universe.
Yeah, i noticed that too ...
And some fans, sorry fans, saying bullshit like "IAM BATMAN"
Fuck it Batman is a human who struggles not a perfect 10000 IQ, perfect trained, never wrong , without any flaws jerk, who Knows all better and is more powerfull than any one because of some stupid tech and super plan...
@@majormononoke8958 Yeah. Writers who get Batman wrong forget that he's a normal human man who can only do so much.
I've been meaning to read Batman Forever, but the idea that Batman died and everyone was sad, then battled for the cowl, then Batman traveled through various time periods to witness his destiny of becoming Batman in each one of them before taking back the cowl in Gotham, that all just focuses way too much on the guy.
While Batman is human, it is also essential to his character, that he be competent and while not superhuman - at least be at the peak or even a slightly exaggerated peak of human performance.
Batman isn't a man, he's a myth, and a character; one we are meant to aspire to. That's a good thing.
I do agree, he does have a bit too much representation in the comics (and all media to be honest), and I wish they'd dial it back a bit but can you blame them? Batman is one of the single greatest fictional characters ever imagined. Hands down.
@@majormononoke8958 I don't even understand what you were trying to say with the 'IAM BATMAN' line.
It's one of the most memorable moments in any of his comicbook runs and that whole scene is a great summary of Batman's character.
I agree that Batman can’t be the solitary cryptid-like character with a family around him at all times, but I think your argument kind of falls apart when you called all of them the same. My guy Red Hood was a CRIME LORD. It’s also an instance where the nature of a comic book universe can be at the detriment of the individual characters. The Bat-family may not be essential to Batman runs, but they are essential to the universe. They are the second generation, which has become fairly important in the DC universe. I mean just look how successful runs like Teen Titans and Young Justice are.
Most of batman's "robin but then went solo" companions are all bland bootlegs of Nightwing.
I strongly feel people who don't like the batfamily don't truly appreciate the whole of who Bruce actually is. At heart, he's a family man. He's caring. The kind who adopts orphans from trauma and poverty. This is essential to his being.
Being a good, caring man should not "get in the way" of your male power fantasy. Being a genuinely good father figure/teacher to people who rely on you is far more powerful and worth admiration.
"No one would live in a place so terrible like Gotham, It's completelly unrealistic."
People Living in Latin America: "Am I a joke to you?"
(Well, many of us flee to better places to live, but not ALL OF US)
Yeah. There so much wrong with what he said. It such a joke. Most crime that is seen like Gotham is often times comes from people voting in (Or horror of the party in charge) doing things that are corrupt, such as moving police officers so that a crime origination can move illegal bank notes. This is why so many people right now are afraid of the amount of people moving from CA to Texas.
Just got recommended this video. Great video. As a hard-core Two-Face fan, it's amazing to see someone recognize Eye of the Beholder for the staple it is. It often gets overshadowed by The Long Halloween (which is also a story I love).
I don't necessarily see anything wrong with an occasionally lighter Batman story. I feel like having the majority of his stories be the solo "batfamily-less" grim Batman stories with the occasional appearance by another character that lightens the mood and brings a bit of levity would be a nice way to strike a balance. But trying to pull Batman too far into the "and then everyone lived happily ever after" side of super hero stories just feels weird.
I find it weirdly hypocritical that one of your favorite comics is a story about Batman finding an old stuffed bear to comfort a recently orphaned Dick Grayson, yet you hate the idea of a Bat Family. You bring up several times that he's a dark, brooding loner but you also need to keep in mind that those things aren't all he is. He is a dark vigilante, but he's also an orphan who lost his parents at a young age so he fights crime so no other child has to go through that same kind of pain. He's brooding, but not a stone cold sociopath. I agree that it's gotten pretty out of hand with Duke, Harper Row and the two Batwings, but adopting a circus orphan who watched his parents get murdered, which Bruce also witnessed happen, is perfectly in character for him. Bruce can be cold sometimes, but he's also a caring and compassionate person, so why wouldn't he take young orphans under his wing and make sure they don't turn into hardened criminals?
I feel like this is something you seriously neglected in this video, sure Gotham is a gothic city that's cursed to forever be at odds with itself, but it's not completely desolate and hopeless, and neither is Batman. His empathy is every bit as important as his ability to instill fear into criminals.
It's always DARK DARK GROTESQUE DARK EDGY BROODING and there can be too much of that sometimes.
I don't see any 'hypocrisy' in this. Batman is capable of being compassionate but not of relating comfortably to other people. Most of all he is incapable of forming family-style intimacy. His whole character is defined by this, by his loss of family and inability to piece together any kind of life without it. His heroics are a way to focus and distract himself, and would be entirely unnecessary if he wasn't so driven by that core loss.
I have to say, I am so impressed by how deep your Batman knowledge is. I don't like 1 dimensional super hero characters. I shy away from Superman and Capt American for that reason. Batman is my favorite because he is the most complex. He is as capable of fighting crime as he is incapable being happy, marrying Selina Kyle, being a father to Damien Wayne, role model to Dick Grayson, or trusting his own Justice League colleagues.
I also believe that Joker knows Batman much more intimate than even Alfred does. If you understand what Joker's _"Killing Joke"_ was implying, it was implying that Batman is just as crazy as the Joker. His obsession to stop crime, yet refusing to kill has taken him to Gotham City rooftops dressed as a fucking bat while calling someone else crazy because they're dressed like a clown. What do you think?
Divorced From Humanity Batman and Joker have one of the most interesting relationships in history
Having one sidekick he cares for and having an entire *family* he simply delegates tasks to are very different things...
Dude, you've articulated the issues I didn't realise I had with the latest runs of Batman, and why I generally avoid them. Thank you.
This video is the reason why I started reading comics. I never knew I needed these stories as badly as I do, but they are what I’ve been needing that the dc movies and shows just can’t provide.
I didn’t anticipate watching an hr long commentary on Batman comics yet here I am; with a renewed love for comics. Thank you so much for sharing.
I find your take on King's Batman being a continuation of Morrison's problems interesting, but not exact. For all of King's focus on Batman's "mental health" there isn't anything positive about King's version. Morrison's Batman managed to escape from Darkseid's weird time travel hell by remembering how every member of the Batfamily and the Justice League was there for him. King's Batman is only happy when Catwoman is around. Morrison's Batman is campy silver age fun ran through modern lens, King's Batman is just depressing drivel
Morrison understood the need to move forward, to me; you'd had about twenty years of Batman stories where it was arguably a misery-fest, culminating in Infinite Crisis where some very real flaws were revealed about Bruce as a character and his place in the superhero community. So there was a need to make Batman a little less of an asshole, and he did that while preserving the 'man who plans for everything' idea of the character; you look at the initial Black Glove arc on the island and Batman is quite complimentary of the other Batman-inspired heroes which pays off down the line. Morrison also looks at the need to move forward by examining things with Bruce out of the picture, and the Dick/Damien stories are quite satisfying in that regard as they have to pick things up and deal with a drastically different status quo. I loved that era of Batman comics; you had Red Robin, Steph as Batgirl, the Knight and Squire miniseries, so much of it was good.. And then DC had to revamp and Morrison seemed to reflect bitterly on how stupid this was by making the second half of Batman Inc so much darker and miserable.
Snyder regressed things a little bit, but overall I like his run and the Batman/Joker dynamic he fleshed out much more thoroughly to be the core of his overall run and the work beyond it; King, though... I've seen nothing I like from his run.
35:15 this is exactly what happened to me, The Scarecrow has always been my favorite Batman villain after seeing him in the animated series as a kid and when I first wanted to get into reading comics I tried to find the ones that he was the main villain of and was well disappointed
This is a truly fantastic video. Your understanding of Batman’s core characteristics is obvious, but the way you compliment this by explaining why you prefer certain depictions of the character is what makes this video truly special. I also love the dark, gothic, horror elements of certain batman stories. This is the first video of yours I have watched, and I don’t usually leave comments on TH-cam, but you Sir have gained a new subscriber. Edit because I had not finished the video. Totally agree with the concept of “joker fatigue”, recently saw the The Batman, and genuinely sighed when they set joker up at the end. Don’t get me wrong Joker is awesome, but Batman has so many good villains that are under-utilised, and joker had been done to near perfection by Mark Hamill and Heath Ledger.
The irony of this post is that Bob Kane and Bill Finger never intended for Batman to be a "Gothic horror" character. In Gothic horror, the reader or viewer is the one who experiences angst, due to sympathizing with a tormented protagonist. Batman comics were never supposed to be that melancholy. Yes, Batman is a creature of horror...but he's a creature of horror FOR CRIMINALS. It's the villains who should be frightened of Batman, not the other way around. You're supposed to vicariously enjoy Batman, and making him really tormented and weird tends to defeat the purpose of that.
He just doesn't understand Batman at all.
This is what you get when you get people who make ‘essay’ videos about subjects they know nothing about. A lot of pomp and arrogance.
@@nexus7034 yes. At the cost of popularity have I figured not too many people know who Batman actually is, not even for his very basic traits. Batman is a hero born in darkness to make Gotham City a better place. He is doing what the police don't.
TheDarkTicoKnight12 yeah he’s literally the inverse version of Superman. They’re both heroes, but Superman grew up with parents and was in a loving environment. Whereas Batman grew up in a shit hole like Gotham. They’re both heroes, but go about things a different way.
I loved what you said! People read too many comics like "Killing joke" and forget about "War on crime". I've always loved the mix of sci-fi, detective stories, and swashbuckling novels. Batman has no appeal for me in Gothic Horror because he loses the characteristics that I love. The swashbuckling part that is perseverance and honor becomes an obsession and decadence and the detective fades away. The part about justice, overcoming your limitations and protection of the weak turns into madness and egocentric behavior. Everything that I loved when I met the character is lost. That is what I think BAtman is losing, his hero side, with all the problematization and brooding.
"It's simply not realistic."
Good stories don't need to be realistic, most aren't. Real life doesn't have protagonists, antagonists, plot progression, story climaxes, or epitomes of tragedy or philanthropy, but a good story usually does.
The whole point of a story is to convey ideas about life and make people feel emotions, not to be a documentary about real life. I don't want to read a 500 issue series about a man who fumbles over his words and works a dead-end job as an office-worker, where the most interesting thing that happens is a printer malfunction. I want to read about a former world-class surgeon turned sorcerer supreme, an eccentric billionaire turned iron man, an orphan turned crime-fighting bat-man, and space-alien turned struggling philanthropist (new name for Superman?).
As I understand it, a good story will do these things;
- Exaggerate and make things ridiculous if need be, but set out in-universe rules and follow them.
- Keep a continuity and be consistent.
- Make characters believable, make them "real".
- Tell a story about being human, even if the characters aren't.
Creepshow started as a comic Book
Lol real life can fucking rule if you do it right
Yeah we can agree that Morrison's stories exploring metaphysics is genius but he's still a British white man who obviously hasn't had to live in a crappy neighborhood.
Edit: (Aug 9th): turns out he's Scottish.
@@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme you have no idea what you're talking about, like anyone that uses "white man" as an insult, Morrison is from Glasgow
@@LarryHazard ok so he's technically Scottish, but he's still Caucasian, and he probably lived places that are clean and has no idea what American cities today look like. Take Seattle, it's a fucking Shit hole.
Scarecrow actually has a major appearance in the new 52 batman the dark knight comics issue 12-15
My personal favorite storyline because it shows his disturbing backstory and that he still has some humanity left in him
Great job with the video:)
I love that story. That’s where he kidnaps the girl with the stutter right?
Yes
Man that part you said about scott snyder being the greatest run since its creation gave me goosebump, cause its true and i felt that nobody give him enough credit for it , it was even underrated but as time pass it starting to get is due over and its totally deserve.
When I was a kid Gotham City was the city I would love to live in because of the statues, and cathedral skyscrapers, and dark industrial modern architecture next to classic gothic architecture... It creates this dark timelessness. ❤️ Which I was seriously missing in the Nolan's cinematic take. My favourite live action take of Gotham City was Batman Returns. I'm excited for the new Batman... It's rumoured to be a live action adaptation of the Long Halloween!!! 💕❤️💕
I
remember when I was surprised by my father in the middle of a school day and taken out of school early to go see the Micheal Keaton BATMAN in the Eighties and It was amazing to me because I was already a young kid growing up in Baltimore
I think the most memorable Riddler story, was when he tried to summon a Demonic Bat and trying to use Batman as a sacrifice.
Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder certainly agree with you.
The last bit of dialogue you gave at the end of this video gave me damn cold chills man! This video was a 10/10
I think "The Batman" has perfectly showcased the gothic horror of Batman and Gotham City.
Movie or show?
Both are good
@@eway44 I’m referring to the 2022 movie starring Robert Pattinson. But, you’re absolutely right. Both the film and the 2004 cartoon are AWESOME.
@@Gabreya
That movie fucking ruined everything about Batman even his fucking origin and personality. What is up with the emo garbage and the mascara on his eyes? He even reads from his fucking diary? Awful "incarnation".
@@stevenriften7561The mascara is to make the skin around his eyes blend in better with the cowl. If trying to blend in with the darkness of your surroundings and strike fear into criminals is “emo shit” then Batman has always been “emo” lol
@@Gabreya The Batman 2004 is an underrated gem.
"they're about comics instead of being comics" pretty much defines all popular media these days
Sure think Batman needs a good balance. I can agree that given his origins and for the sake of the universe and its stories that Gotham and Batman need to be mostly dark and themed after horror o and mystery, but I also think Batman can have small moments that are a bit more light. It shouldn't overdo or misuse dark themes and subject matter, but it also shouldn't overdo overly bright and/or silly things.
Batman went grimdark to the point of parody. I personally appreciate they dialed things back a touch.
Issue is they dialed it back too much. I'm fine with toning down the Grimdark since Gotham isn't even meant to he the worst city in the DC universe but now it feels too much like Metropolis
I disagree with this video
Yes I agree that Gotham should be a dark and dangerous place, but Batman doesn’t need to be dark 100% of the time.
Batman and superheroes in general are great because there are so many different interpretations, I have no problem with Batman being a dark character, but there is nothing wrong with him smiling or being happy once in a while. If he was just a dark brooding figure of vengeance who never talked to anybody and was angry all the time that would get old fast.
I don’t understand your problem with the bat family, they are all established characters with their own stories, and they aren’t even together that often so what are you complaining about? They all work on their own mostly and are only brought together for events. I like that Batman has friends and family so he has others to talk and relate to.
Also scenes like the bat themes restaurant give time for character interactions and character development, I don’t need fast paced action 24/7 a scene of a group of likeable characters just talking to each other is enough for me sometimes.
You say that you can’t say anything about the bat family, robin? Night wing? Batgirl? These are iconic characters core to Batman’s mythos and are features in many of the comics you praised so much, what’s not to like about them?
You say that you liked the older stories because they were deconstructions and deep looks at the characters and their relation to Batman, then say you just want fun light hearted stuff like mr freeze robbing a bank? Make up your mind man!
One thing I did agree on was the use of villains. I do think they should be used better but I disagree on your opinions of modern villains. We don’t need to see the same villains used over and over, sometimes we need new things. You said that they are underdeveloped and have no core relation to Batman but the classic villains didn’t either. The riddler, two face and even the joker started off as one off generic bad guys for Batman to punch, they took time to evolve. These new villains need time too.
Overall great video really well edited, but I just wholeheartedly disagree with your take on Batman.
Great video, though I fundamentally disagree on some points. I believe that Batman is not fundamentally a horror story, though it certainly contains those elements and does it terrifically. Its fundamentally about someone standing up for good in the face of darkness, both within and without. Its noir, its detective, its a flawed but ultimately heroic figure struggling against the odds.
Which is why I feel the Dark Knight Returns is one of the greatest disservices to the Batman character and universe out there.
It ultimately misses the point of Batman, that he will NOT surrender, by making him a drunk, angry, bitter old man essentially yelling at all the kids to get off his lawn. Its shallow, regressive, and sees the "punchy punchy" aspect of Batman. Its one of the reasons I generally dislike Miller's writing on many things. Its always a tad...off.
Not that Batman could never fail, far from it. Screws up all the time. But both Kingdom Come and Batman Beyond, in my opinion, do a superior job of showcasing Batman and Bruce Wayne as he ages. His ideals, his core of who he is that makes him get up and drag his battered and bloody form through twelve types of hell and back, will shape him.
In Kingdom Come, faced with his broken body and new hurdles, he resorts to robots and police state monitoring and then later to multi-layered levels of scheming.
In Batman Beyond, when the toll of his crusade wears on him, it is the violation of his principles that makes him choose to give up the cowl.
Because Batman is crazy and broken, but in a very specific way.
Having him be a thrill junkie as "the goddamn Batman" or grumpy grandpa beating up the youth element in "Dark Knight Returns" simply misses the mark of the character, IMO.
Of course, like you said, 80 years is quite a time span.
Maybe the heart of Batman, is in fact, Adam West's glorious, glorious camp. :D
I'll be honest, everyone hates the story but I actually prefer reading The Dark Knight Strikes Again over TDKR; the story is incredibly dumb in parts and the visuals very early-2000's, but I just liked that Millar seemed to look at all the stories that had occurred due to his and Moore's stories and asked 'the fuck is wrong with you?' before embarking on an amazing journey of throwing Adam West's camp as a can of paint all over the grim misery the Batman comics had become. Batman slashes a goddamn 'Z for Zorro' across Lex Luthor's face, the Atom battles bacteria in a petri dish prison, Green Lantern saves the earth with a ring-energy hug and gives his world a big green kiss goodbye, and Hawkman caves Lex Luthor's skull in as Batman watches and sips tea. Amazing.
"Riddler has appeared in two comics: In Year Zero, where he was depicted very well and scary and in War of jokes and riddles, that was written by Tom King."
I love me some subtle humor XD
I love that you started with and appreciated BATMAN & ROBIN. I started with the 1966 series and the Saturday morning cartoons. Today there are very few entrances into superheroes for actual children.
My wife criticizes the TEEN TITANS show on CN, but I explained to her that it's not made for her. It's made for children to get to know the characters. Yes it's silly, but it's very cool to kids who's tastes will eventually evolve.
Great video!
Greg Capullo's Batman art is beyond amazing
I first became acquainted with Batman around 1954, when I was 9. I was very ill, and my adoptive parents brought me some comic books to keep me entertained while I was confined to my bed. One of them was an issue of Detective Comics which contained a Batman story. The Joker scared me to death -- and I loved the story and the comic! Here's a great overview of Batman's career.
You've completely made up that story didn't you?
@@Reject101Personal Just because nothing interesting happens in your life doesn’t mean nothing interesting happens in other people’s lives
The fact that comics not using batman villains really true, and reminded me one encounter.
This exchange was around 2013; back then I own a small comic shop with a friend and we was part of local fiction convention that one time.
Customer, after looking on comics for a while: - Hello. I'm, sorry, but do you actually have a good understanding of comics you sell?
- Yes, of course. I pretty much can give a small synopsis of, like, 90% issues we have.
- Wonderful. Can you help me with finding few cool ones? I'm interested in Batman.
- Of course. We have a lot of Batman singles from late 80s to 2010s. There is classic Detective Comics oneshots, Knightfall, Gothic, Batman RIP, "Dick run", Black mirror, almost all Shadow of the bat and Gotham GCPD...
- Cool... Can you give me some good Scarecrow stories? I really enjoy Scarecrow.
- ............Fuck.........
In the end, I sell her few Knightfall issues with Scarecrow in it, but still embarrassed for not finding exactly what customer wanted, despite having a shit ton of Batman comics in store. There just wasn't a "Scarecrow" Scarecrow story, and I didn't even noticed it until then. Even when he was "main villain", he was in like 5 pages from 3 issue story, and for the most part of it - Bats was fighting rat-werewolfs or some shit.
When I'm reading batman I always start to think: "why are people living in Gotham" but as soon as I start thinking that Killer Croc throws Batman through a fucking wall or some shit and I immediately forget what i was thinking because Batman is about to be in a really cool fight
I could really relate to the way you described (near the beginning of the video) your affection for that specific comic issue of Batman. It reminded me of my own experience. Different time, different comic, same emotion! Thanks
You’ve really captured the reason I’ve had such a hard time getting into the recent Batman comics. I grew up in the golden horror age of the Batman comics and I’ve grown more and more frustrated with how they’ve turned. Thank you for making this video!
Start reading real novels instead. You have to create your own pictures.
The thing about the 80's is that a LOT of people looked around, especially in large American cities, and felt like they were living in the kind of city that Gotham was in those comics.
They felt like violence, crime and poverty was all around all the time. I would say that was the main reason no one questioned why people lived in Gotham if the place was so terrible (especially given Metropolis exists in the same universe). That's one of the reasons I loved "No Man's Land", because it asked that question and, to a certain extent, it answered it.
It has been decades since most people stopped thinking about most metropolis as if they were a bad day away from turning into "Scape from New York" even if poverty thrives, so I kinda see Morrison's point about Gotham requiring a brighter outlook.
Gotham as we know it was based on New York, which used to be the cesspool of America. Now, New York is a legitimate place to be, not the safest sure, surely not the most equal in how it treats its citizens, but a good place to be. If New York can have that, why can't Gotham?
I actually agree with Morrison (who I still think is a madman but not in a bad way) that you need some sunshine or it's slog. A good comparisson to make is the Nolan Batman films compared to the Snyder's. Sloggy, murder Batman is off-putting. On the other end, having some sunlight and some beacons of hope against entropy is compelling. Also, look how many times you've had the elite prospering off of the downtrodden of Gotham with only Batman and a few others trying to right the ship. A little light helps, get too shiny and it's Schumacher-ville.
I have to disagree about No Man's Land, I personally found it a bit boring and like nothing was really happening. also, Bruce Wayne abandoning Gotham when it's this fucked seems very out of character for him, and is just overall a dumb idea that was clearly made to just make it more depressing.
but I think I agree with everything else you said.
I liked the New 52 period. I'm biased cause it was my introduction to DC comics and superhero comics in general, but I loved so many stories from that time. No matter how many people see it as a failure, I'll always treasure it.