For 5 years I worked in a building that was between Farringdon Street and Shoe Lane, the interesting thing was that the Fleet River actually run through the middle of the building, yes I do mean through the middle. The building had a basement and a sub basement, the culvert carrying the river ran between the two halves of the basement and over the top of the sub basement. Needless to say the building was called Fleet Building. When the river was in spate you could hear the water rushing through. Fleet building contained the inland and international telex switchboard, several telephone exchanges and the international telex radio circuit control centre, sadly with the demise of Telex the switchboards closed and eventually the building demolished.
Did it ever cause structural issues, or problems with all the electronics? Buried rivers (including the similar ones in Manhattan) have a way of occasionally reminding you of their presence like that.
@@andyjay729 The lie of the land in the hills and valleys of london creates a mix of marshes - most built over - and a number of other storm water drainage which will flow into other sewers including the main one under the Victoria Embankment which somewhat means the culverting for the Fleet is more than sufficient for its peak flow
Had some very interesting conversations via the office Telex, the precursor to sexting. Had to remember to destroy the carbon copies though before the Telex operator came back from lunch.
What a wonderful cliffhanger to end on. Young Jago goes to great lengths to inform us where Holborn is and how it came to be named concluding that the present Holborn (nee Holborn (Kingsway)) station is not Holborn at all but without telling us the name of the area around the station. Is this a sneaky way of leaving us anticipating the next episode in which more is revealed. We await!
Old maps show the area around Holborn tube station to be part of ‘Finsbury’, with what is today the street ‘High Holborn’ often written just as ‘Holborn’. ‘Kingsway’ might have been a better name for the station…
It's pronounced "Hol-born", as it looks - listed in domesday book as "Holeburna" - Old English for "stream in the hollow". Similarly, "Marylebone" is pronounced as it looks and not "Marlybone"
Another fascinating and educational visit to the Smoke, thank you Jago, much appreciated. A mention is made above of Finsbury - As a Muswell Hill born lad with grandparents who all lived in the Finsbury Park area, I’ve long been intrigued as to why Finsbury Park is so named when it is nowhere near the city district of Finsbury - any chance of a dive into this sometime, Jago?
@@rambler241 not in a Cockney/ working class London accent it's not. Pointing to the Domesday Book as evidence isn't quite relevant, let's face it we don't say "domes-" but "dooms-" and we don't say "Lonn-donn" but "Lund'n". Besides, isn't pronunciation pedantry a form of accent snobbery?
I was in London when there was an explosion in a former tram tunnel at Holborn. It knocked out all the alarms in the jewelry businesses there. I thought, "I'll bet there will be a robbery." And there was.
Good film as usual. Two observations from Scotland:- 1. We use the word "burn" to mean a very small stream (or river) which seems similar to the Olde English "born" you mention, 2. Once on Crianlarich station I heard a railway enthusiast from London asking a driver about the train to Oban, hopelessly mis-pronouncing it. The driver drily remarked "It's Oban like Holborn Viaduct". True story.
as alex and clive's travel said here, I am from the north east of England and we use 'burn' and 'beck' as names for streams. one is from old english, the other is scandanavian I believe, in the same way locally '-ham' and '-ton' village endings are common and of the same roots of viking/saxon.
@@philanderson5138 Yes I agree - like you suggest, English isn't a pure language at all, but a mixture of Norman French, Saxon, and Viking. Hence the proliferation of duplicate words with the same meaning. Example - Prohibited (French prohibé) and Forbidden (German - Verboten) which mean exactly the same. Numerous others like fraternity and brotherhood. (Frere/Bruder) ...need I go on?
My university was just down Kingsway so this was "my" local tube station. Fast forward 30 years and on a return visit I came out of Holborn and was utterly baffled about where I was. So much change (and forgetfulness)......
As in Bournemouth meaning River mouth, and Avonmouth also being river mouth. I love these names. Dover meaning Dwr meaning water, Andover meaning the river and Andoversford meaning the ford over the river. Don't you love it! My favourite is Wookey hole cave meaning cave, cave cave. Cave is one of the original words we get such as cwm (combe) from the origingal Brittanic because the current Welsh name for a cave is ogof pronounced ogov i.e. cave.
At 3:20 the building to the far right on the picture (next to Hardy's) with the sign starting "PO" is 33 Ludgate Hill, I used to work in that building, nothing to do with the film, but over the road is a pub, name of which I've forgotten. I was walking down Ludgate Hill on lunchtime and leaving the pub was my boyhood idol and greatest ever goal scorer, Jimmy Greaves, who I bumped in to and stood there open mouthed like a complete spanner
I remember the old Holborn viaduct station. I was taking photos near old bailey, and there was an alleyway from there to inside the station as I remember
Little did I know when dragging myself to work as a callow youth there that I was walking on water..Or sewage. (Actually that would have matched my mood more closely) Thank you Jago.
Well, I always wondered why Holborn tube station was nowhere near Holborn Viaduct and the defunct main line station, but never realised that it was the tube that was more "out of position" historically. Maybe that's one reason why LT gave it the (Kingsway) suffix for many years. Did the slums along the Fleet survive the Great Fire and subsequent rebuilding? One would have thought they were prime candidates to go up in flames. Interesting to see that there are 116 comments after only being posted around an hour - Jago devotees watching and waiting!
In 1908, Holborn Town Hall moved from the corner of Gray's Inn Road and Clerkenwell Road to a location opposite the site of British Museum station (source: Holborn Town Hall, Wikipedia ), well to the west of Holborn tube station, where the words Holborn Town Hall can still be seen. So it looks like the migration westwards was in full swing.
Fascinating as always. Thanks for the time and effort you give to these vlogs. Speaking of the tube station Holborn, have you thought of a little vlog in Sicilian Avenue. I always feel there must be some interesting history around that pretty little and oddly proportioned cut-through? Just a suggestion, but I enjoy everything you put up for us anyway.
Being Londoner born and bred, but now exiled in Bristol. I really enjoy your videos of my home town. Keep up the good work and best wishes from Bristle (as known locally).
When I think of Holborn, I think of 'Old Holborn' tobacco :) The Fleet still runs under there, btw, albeit mostly in a conduit sewer these days There are several grates in the streets nearby that, if you listen closely over all the traffic noise, you can hear it running.
Many thanks for another great video. For me it brings back many memories of when I had to work for a living. Your view looking south from Holborn Viaduct shows no fewer than 3 BT buildings (probably all ex-BT buildings by now) in the space between the viaduct and Ludgate Circus. On the left, literally a stone's throw away, is Meridian House - my base from 1992 to 1996. A bit further on is Caroone House which had a nice staff restaurant (canteen to all those who were actually staff). On the right is Fleet building - an operational site full of telecomms equipment -with technicians who at Christmas time would rig up amazing seasonal light displays using lamps, relays, uniselectors and all other sorts of spare parts. Happy times. As for Holborn, well the first BT building I ever worked in was Procter House - this time its the one that was a stone' s throw from the northern entrance of the eponymous tube station. Holborn telephone exchange is a short distance along the road (numbers 268-270) and really is in High Holborn.
we have a lot of -bo(u)rn(e)s in the west country. A lot of dictionaries claim it means more precisely a stream or river which only flows seasonally, in the wetter half of the year, although this doesn't seem to apply to the Fleet, so I think it used to be general purpose.
@@andrewgwilliam4831 Poss, but a lot of London rivers / streams dry up in hot summers, (and the flow was well down this year apart from those that a spring fed and they struggled)
@@Mathemagical55 Although that's not in hugely common use. Also, the wet season isn't necessarily winter, particularly in Eastern England. Some of the bournes seem to mainly appear after heavy summer thunderstorms and disappear again after a few days.
To the East of Ludgate Circus are some man holes ( I'm probably in terrible trouble for calling them man holes)and these lead down to the river fleet. Incidentally I never tire of looking at the Holborn Viaduct, it's beautiful.
Thank you for an interesting vlog. I remember working trains into Holborn Viaduct station in the early 70's, if memory servers me well I believe it was opposite the Old Baily.
They say you can still hear the Fleet from grates along the street. And iirc there are tours exploring the Lost River of London, which entails you going down that sewer and walking down it.
There was the High Holborn BR station which I think became City Thameslink. I recall it was a terminus for some of the SR trains from Dartford. The trains went off at Lewisham and went rather a long way round to Blackfriars and HV.
I pronounce it the same as you do - and while I did (academically at least) know that "born" as a name had links to "river" (see also Eastbourne on the Sussex coast), I don't think i ever connected the dots there! Would like to see a video where you lead on from here, with what this area, or at least the station, might otherwise be called if not Holborn.
According to Wikipedia (not the best source, I know), they have both "Ho" and "Hol" pronunciations. Perhaps the more interesting thing is they have it listed as "Holborn; Human settlement in England"! 😂
Once upon the early eighties, I remember doing an exhibition stand for Royal Doulton in the Barbican, seemed like a converted car park actually. Anyway somewhere in Holborn was a great restaurant in a cellar, bit spit n sawdust type, large open BBQ grille, producing tasty cuts like Barnsley chips in cider, dessert I selected stilton, a while stilton was brought to the table, complete with small glass of port to lob in, only time I've ever had port fed stilton,so having my meal I was Sittingbourne. What was it the railways advertised. Live in Kent and be content, live in Surrey, free from worry, thanks for the latest installment, now how about the story of Blackpool trams.
Chancery Lane station (Central Line) - which also isn't near Chancery Lane - is actually on 'Holborn' the street, I believe - but perhaps you are going to do a video about that ... please keep 'em coming!
Through Leeuwarden, The Netherlands a waterway called het Vliet (pronunciation: fleet) used to run. It too was heavily polluted, so it was filled in during the 1960s. The name is derived from an old Saxon word for flowing.
"Stoats nest" is an interesting name for a station, as is poison cross. Also the London electricity supply company had it's power station At the junction of Snow Hill and Holborn viaduct, their junction box Covers with LESCO on them used to be in Hatton Garden and Streets in the area, back in the 70s anyway.
ah, so Born as the same thing as Bourne (turns up in a lot of place names) would be very related to the Scots "burn", which is still in common useage for anything from streams through to small rivers
You might want to consider how come the Holborn Union Workhouse was in Mitcham , Surrey (later site of among other things, Pye Records (Transco/PRT) Pressing Plant and Distribution Warehouse
Having lived for 14 years in Hertfordshire, I have come to know a bourne as a stream that only flows seasonally. This would normally be in the autumn and winter with the streams or bournes being bone dry in the summer.
In Dorset streams that flow primarily in winter are specifically called winterbournes (even though "summerbournes" are unheard of) and provide the names for many villages, such as Winterborne Kingston and Winterborne Stickland, and similarly in Wiltshire although there the "bourne" part is spelt with a "u". And we still have Wimborne and Bournemouth for towns that are on streams that flow all all-year.
Ah yes, the Fleet... A favourite, but I really wonder about the scale of things. It is said that it was navigable some distance from the Thames. By how big a vessel..?
I wonder if born and burn (a Scottish term for a small stream) are from the same source? 🤔 By 'wonder', I actually mean I can't be bothered to do the research! 😊
@@a11oge Its not really just a "viking word". There were similar words in all germanic languages, including the Old English "bec" and Old Norse "bekkr", that mean the same thing.
Hello friend, I'm not sure if you cover outside London the commuter belt. Can you do one on Hemel Hempstead the old name being called Boxmoor and the old Nickey Line, thanks.
Who is the earl that earl’s court is named after? When I did tourism back in the 80s I did hostels. The other big hostel was the small part of a major manor that had been destroyed by the blitz. The manor was owned by some Whig grandee during the regency
So Fleet River shared a similar history with the Zenne River in Brussels. River turned into sewer, and covered up. Though the Zenne is still visible outside Brussels.
There is an excellent book I heartily recommend, Lost Rivers of London, if you can find it. I've lost mine. Seriously, it's a good read and worth a series on its own.
It was curved to follow the line of the link from the Metropolitan Railway up to the suburban side of Kings Cross station - the notorious "Hotel Curve"
"Prior to the building of Kings Cross station and its curved hotel, the Fleet followed what was known as Kings Road. When Kings Cross main station was opened in 1852, the Fleet’s route was changed to go via the front of the station (this explains why the station frontage is at an angle to the Euston Road and not parallel with it) The Great Northern Hotel’s curved structure reflects the alignment of the Hotel Curve tunnel. The Fleet river’s sewer runs approximately along the route of the Hotel Curve. . Basically the Fleet runs along the west side of the Great Northern Hotel". So the railway cut across the original course of the Fleet, the hotel follows the curve of the railway, and the Fleet was diverted to follow that curve.
The buildings pictured on the tin lid are still there. One of the shops used to be a tobacconist which I used in smoking days, but now inevitably it's a coffee shop.
My family come from Holborn my nan & great grandmother were flower sellers ( flower girls ) out side Holborn tube supplying carnations for button holes to city gents but I must insist the proper pronunciation is with no H or L !! so it sounded like o’burn. Good video 👍
Underground station names often have little to with the locations eg Dollis Hill, Kilburn Jubilee line etc. Well done nevertheless. Holborn underground was originally called Holborn & Kingsway. Queens Park underground is in Salusbury Rd west Kilburn ( see Brent Kilburn Library and Police station) . Holborn viaduct station was nearest to the Fleet river and High Holborn
I used to live in coram street,and the river ran under our house,in the winter when the sewer was under full pressure it used to seep up in to our basement, due to the bombing in the Second World War, and we had black rats in the house,and sum shops in marchment street as well,you just get used to it, and the rats were just visiting for food,quite funny when you think of it.
the Tyburn tree gallows was so named because tree was a corruption of tribus (pronounced tree bus) means three and it had three legs and not as some have stated because people were hanged in trees, , the words triple, three, tricycle, treble and triplets all come from the word tribus meaning 3
Was always fascinated by what was left of the Goods Spur off Fenchurch Street near St Botolph without Aldgate as found in the Ordnance Survey Map of Whitechapel, Spitalfields & the bank 1873
I'd be very surprised if there's anything visible left. I've worked in Minories, Fenchurch Street and Houndsditch so know the area quite well, but can't think of anything that might be a remnant.
@@caw25sha I always looked at the viaduct spur over Chamber Street/Prescot Street which abruptly ended but one could still clearly see the stub end of what was once a spur to a Goods Depot north of Haydon Street which is now a Bus Depot/Hilton but I've never been able to find any plans/drawings/etc of what the actual Goods Depot actually looked like
City Thameslink, Chancery Lane, St. Paul’s, Holborn and St. Paul’s Cathedral are all in Holborn. And I think Moorgate was once in Holborn but is slightly north of Holborn but still in the City of London. Even Soho is in Holborn.
![เปิดบ้านสุดหรู "เเจ็ค the ghost" ลั่นถ้าป๋องกพลลำบากผมเลี้ยงเอง!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1xbW4vULqGc/mqdefault.jpg)
For 5 years I worked in a building that was between Farringdon Street and Shoe Lane, the interesting thing was that the Fleet River actually run through the middle of the building, yes I do mean through the middle. The building had a basement and a sub basement, the culvert carrying the river ran between the two halves of the basement and over the top of the sub basement. Needless to say the building was called Fleet Building. When the river was in spate you could hear the water rushing through. Fleet building contained the inland and international telex switchboard, several telephone exchanges and the international telex radio circuit control centre, sadly with the demise of Telex the switchboards closed and eventually the building demolished.
Did it ever cause structural issues, or problems with all the electronics? Buried rivers (including the similar ones in Manhattan) have a way of occasionally reminding you of their presence like that.
@@andyjay729 The lie of the land in the hills and valleys of london creates a mix of marshes - most built over - and a number of other storm water drainage which will flow into other sewers including the main one under the Victoria Embankment which somewhat means the culverting for the Fleet is more than sufficient for its peak flow
Fleet had a good restaurant before they closed it.
Had some very interesting conversations via the office Telex, the precursor to sexting. Had to remember to destroy the carbon copies though before the Telex operator came back from lunch.
@@andyjay729 No but occasionally I remember a distinct foul odour :)
I am constantly tickled by how interesting these videos are about trivia of a city I don't live in.
One day you'll go there and explain London to Londoners and feel like an absolute boss.
@@SmallBlogV8 I know bits about my side of the city but the east and south is a lesson each episode 😊
@@SmallBlogV8 That is if any Londoner could possibly be in a chatty mood...ever.
What a wonderful cliffhanger to end on. Young Jago goes to great lengths to inform us where Holborn is and how it came to be named concluding that the present Holborn (nee Holborn (Kingsway)) station is not Holborn at all but without telling us the name of the area around the station. Is this a sneaky way of leaving us anticipating the next episode in which more is revealed. We await!
Old maps show the area around Holborn tube station to be part of ‘Finsbury’, with what is today the street ‘High Holborn’ often written just as ‘Holborn’. ‘Kingsway’ might have been a better name for the station…
It's pronounced "Hol-born", as it looks - listed in domesday book as "Holeburna" - Old English for "stream in the hollow".
Similarly, "Marylebone" is pronounced as it looks and not "Marlybone"
Or did he mean that Holborn Station is not an empty river?
Another fascinating and educational visit to the Smoke, thank you Jago, much appreciated. A mention is made above of Finsbury - As a Muswell Hill born lad with grandparents who all lived in the Finsbury Park area, I’ve long been intrigued as to why Finsbury Park is so named when it is nowhere near the city district of Finsbury - any chance of a dive into this sometime, Jago?
@@rambler241 not in a Cockney/ working class London accent it's not. Pointing to the Domesday Book as evidence isn't quite relevant, let's face it we don't say "domes-" but "dooms-" and we don't say "Lonn-donn" but "Lund'n". Besides, isn't pronunciation pedantry a form of accent snobbery?
I was in London when there was an explosion in a former tram tunnel at Holborn. It knocked out all the alarms in the jewelry businesses there. I thought, "I'll bet there will be a robbery." And there was.
Good film as usual. Two observations from Scotland:-
1. We use the word "burn" to mean a very small stream (or river) which seems similar to the Olde English "born" you mention,
2. Once on Crianlarich station I heard a railway enthusiast from London asking a driver about the train to Oban, hopelessly mis-pronouncing it. The driver drily remarked "It's Oban like Holborn Viaduct". True story.
Yes, we say “burn” in North East England too.
@@alexcrawford6162 I thought so. In Yorkshire the word is "Beck" like in Starbeck which was my local station for many years.
as alex and clive's travel said here, I am from the north east of England and we use 'burn' and 'beck' as names for streams. one is from old english, the other is scandanavian I believe, in the same way locally '-ham' and '-ton' village endings are common and of the same roots of viking/saxon.
@@philanderson5138 Yes I agree - like you suggest, English isn't a pure language at all, but a mixture of Norman French, Saxon, and Viking. Hence the proliferation of duplicate words with the same meaning. Example - Prohibited (French prohibé) and Forbidden (German - Verboten) which mean exactly the same. Numerous others like fraternity and brotherhood. (Frere/Bruder) ...need I go on?
How should you say Oban?
Burn is still a word used in Scotland for a Stream.
Likewise bourne for stream is pretty common in southern and eastern England.
My university was just down Kingsway so this was "my" local tube station. Fast forward 30 years and on a return visit I came out of Holborn and was utterly baffled about where I was. So much change (and forgetfulness)......
As in Bournemouth meaning River mouth, and Avonmouth also being river mouth. I love these names. Dover meaning Dwr meaning water, Andover meaning the river and Andoversford meaning the ford over the river. Don't you love it! My favourite is Wookey hole cave meaning cave, cave cave. Cave is one of the original words we get such as cwm (combe) from the origingal Brittanic because the current Welsh name for a cave is ogof pronounced ogov i.e. cave.
At 3:20 the building to the far right on the picture (next to Hardy's) with the sign starting "PO" is 33 Ludgate Hill, I used to work in that building, nothing to do with the film, but over the road is a pub, name of which I've forgotten. I was walking down Ludgate Hill on lunchtime and leaving the pub was my boyhood idol and greatest ever goal scorer, Jimmy Greaves, who I bumped in to and stood there open mouthed like a complete spanner
Did fake-Holburn pay 8 bucks for the blue check?
If the River Fleet wasn’t covered up, one could video it, then it would be live streamed 😆
Or, considering some of the detritus that has been in it over the years, dead streamed ...
I remember the old Holborn viaduct station. I was taking photos near old bailey, and there was an alleyway from there to inside the station as I remember
Little did I know when dragging myself to work as a callow youth there that I was walking on water..Or sewage. (Actually that would have matched my mood more closely)
Thank you Jago.
Well, I always wondered why Holborn tube station was nowhere near Holborn Viaduct and the defunct main line station, but never realised that it was the tube that was more "out of position" historically. Maybe that's one reason why LT gave it the (Kingsway) suffix for many years. Did the slums along the Fleet survive the Great Fire and subsequent rebuilding? One would have thought they were prime candidates to go up in flames. Interesting to see that there are 116 comments after only being posted around an hour - Jago devotees watching and waiting!
The Fleet would have been a fire break. but the Kingsway/Seven Dials slums were more into the 1700s/1800s
In 1908, Holborn Town Hall moved from the corner of Gray's Inn Road and Clerkenwell Road to a location opposite the site of British Museum station (source: Holborn Town Hall, Wikipedia ), well to the west of Holborn tube station, where the words Holborn Town Hall can still be seen. So it looks like the migration westwards was in full swing.
Now, that sounded just like a narration of some book in Rivers of London series:) Nice
Fascinating as always. Thanks for the time and effort you give to these vlogs.
Speaking of the tube station Holborn, have you thought of a little vlog in Sicilian Avenue. I always feel there must be some interesting history around that pretty little and oddly proportioned cut-through?
Just a suggestion, but I enjoy everything you put up for us anyway.
London's hidden rivers and how the Tube dealt with them would make an interesting series.
Being Londoner born and bred, but now exiled in Bristol. I really enjoy your videos of my home town. Keep up the good work and best wishes from Bristle (as known locally).
@@JP_TaVeryMuch I thought twas Brissole
When I think of Holborn, I think of 'Old Holborn' tobacco :)
The Fleet still runs under there, btw, albeit mostly in a conduit sewer these days There are several grates in the streets nearby that, if you listen closely over all the traffic noise, you can hear it running.
Staple Inn still stands
So honestly how many people like me at about 1:24 when you mentioned the absence of any river said "Please sir - I know sir" ?!! 😎😅
‘Put your hand down Pegum and give one of the other boys a chance to answer’
@@AtheistOrphan Ha ha - very amusing ! 🤣
So if they were to uncover part of the Fleet, would it be bourne again?
😄😁😅😂
👏👏👏👏😂😂😂👍
If the answer were to be Yes and your name was Malcom I would be able to reply 'Fleet would Mac'.
@@1963TOMB Of course, that might just be Rumours...
Many thanks for another great video. For me it brings back many memories of when I had to work for a living. Your view looking south from Holborn Viaduct shows no fewer than 3 BT buildings (probably all ex-BT buildings by now) in the space between the viaduct and Ludgate Circus. On the left, literally a stone's throw away, is Meridian House - my base from 1992 to 1996. A bit further on is Caroone House which had a nice staff restaurant (canteen to all those who were actually staff). On the right is Fleet building - an operational site full of telecomms equipment -with technicians who at Christmas time would rig up amazing seasonal light displays using lamps, relays, uniselectors and all other sorts of spare parts. Happy times. As for Holborn, well the first BT building I ever worked in was Procter House - this time its the one that was a stone' s throw from the northern entrance of the eponymous tube station. Holborn telephone exchange is a short distance along the road (numbers 268-270) and really is in High Holborn.
I was one of the engineers that regularly used to rig up the Christmas Lights.
@@terrybailey2769 Brilliant! I'm tickled that you're both Jago fans!
@@terrybailey2769 they were legendary!
I'm fascinated by how a river can be just covered up and forgotten about.
History lives in the shape of the land.
Jago needs to ensure that his jokes for this video were "sewer-table"
You can sometimes get a fleeting glance of the river if you look in some drain covers in the area.
OK, I'll get my coat!
You're brilliant Jago. You just get better each posting.
I'd have appreciated a (modern) map of the area as I don't live in London and got quite confused by this.
I always thought it was Hole-burn....still could be worse, I have near me Gilshochill (gil-shay-hill), and the famous Milngave (mill-guy)
we have a lot of -bo(u)rn(e)s in the west country. A lot of dictionaries claim it means more precisely a stream or river which only flows seasonally, in the wetter half of the year, although this doesn't seem to apply to the Fleet, so I think it used to be general purpose.
It may be that the word was used slightly differently in the two regions?
@@andrewgwilliam4831 Poss, but a lot of London rivers / streams dry up in hot summers, (and the flow was well down this year apart from those that a spring fed and they struggled)
Pretty common in other parts of southern and eastern England as well. Quite a few are on chalk so they do tend to be seasonal.
If that were true there'd have been no need to invent the word winterbourne.
@@Mathemagical55 Although that's not in hugely common use. Also, the wet season isn't necessarily winter, particularly in Eastern England. Some of the bournes seem to mainly appear after heavy summer thunderstorms and disappear again after a few days.
It's fascinating the way modern names have echos of long-gone, centuries-old landscapes
To the East of Ludgate Circus are some man holes ( I'm probably in terrible trouble for calling them man holes)and these lead down to the river fleet. Incidentally I never tire of looking at the Holborn Viaduct, it's beautiful.
I call them manholes.
But then I was born in the 20th century so what do I know.
Thank you for an interesting vlog. I remember working trains into Holborn Viaduct station in the early 70's, if memory servers me well I believe it was opposite the Old Baily.
You should look at the weird history of Cambridgeshire and the Ye Old Mitre pub in that area. Old haunt of mine when I lived in EC1
JAGO: Your command of interesting facts astounds me!!! I would be keen to know your research process!!
They say you can still hear the Fleet from grates along the street. And iirc there are tours exploring the Lost River of London, which entails you going down that sewer and walking down it.
This stop is closest to the wonderful Sir John Soane Museum.
There was the High Holborn BR station which I think became City Thameslink. I recall it was a terminus for some of the SR trains from Dartford. The trains went off at Lewisham and went rather a long way round to Blackfriars and HV.
Incidentally, Marylebone...
Bournemouth ,Eastbourne …..and so on.
The Rivers of London novels will give a lot of details on the old waters, if anyone's interested. Good reads too.
Is there a bourne in the USA?
Bournemouth is probably the most famous bourne in Britain. I let you work out whereabouts on the river it was built.
Well, there's Jason Bourne, although admittedly he spends a lot of time out of the country.
Eastboune. (Bournemouth itself has a number of of river outlets and suburbs to it)
I pronounce it the same as you do - and while I did (academically at least) know that "born" as a name had links to "river" (see also Eastbourne on the Sussex coast), I don't think i ever connected the dots there!
Would like to see a video where you lead on from here, with what this area, or at least the station, might otherwise be called if not Holborn.
According to Wikipedia (not the best source, I know), they have both "Ho" and "Hol" pronunciations. Perhaps the more interesting thing is they have it listed as "Holborn; Human settlement in England"! 😂
They include the 'Hol-' for foreigners, who then feel better about themselves.
Once upon the early eighties, I remember doing an exhibition stand for Royal Doulton in the Barbican, seemed like a converted car park actually.
Anyway somewhere in Holborn was a great restaurant in a cellar, bit spit n sawdust type, large open BBQ grille, producing tasty cuts like Barnsley chips in cider, dessert I selected stilton, a while stilton was brought to the table, complete with small glass of port to lob in, only time I've ever had port fed stilton,so having my meal I was Sittingbourne.
What was it the railways advertised.
Live in Kent and be content, live in Surrey, free from worry, thanks for the latest installment, now how about the story of Blackpool trams.
🤣🤣🤣 you are the enclosure to my open sewer! 🤣🤣🤣
The river Fleet, a favorite of my other favorite TH-camr, John Rogers
Love John's walks and the Fleet River one was special.
Chancery Lane station (Central Line) - which also isn't near Chancery Lane - is actually on 'Holborn' the street, I believe - but perhaps you are going to do a video about that ... please keep 'em coming!
The platforms are close to Chancery Lane but the entrance had to be moved to the east when lifts were replaced by escalators.
@@EnglishFolkPhotos Aha - that explains that, then ... many thanks
Through Leeuwarden, The Netherlands a waterway called het Vliet (pronunciation: fleet) used to run. It too was heavily polluted, so it was filled in during the 1960s. The name is derived from an old Saxon word for flowing.
"Stoats nest" is an interesting name for a station, as is poison cross.
Also the London electricity supply company had it's power station
At the junction of Snow Hill and Holborn viaduct, their junction box
Covers with LESCO on them used to be in Hatton Garden and
Streets in the area, back in the 70s anyway.
To borrow a joke from Bob Hope, it is said the Fleet stank to High Holborn...
I thought of that 'stinks to High Holborn' joke myself when I moved down to London 18 months ago. I figured I probably wasn't the first...
@@reggie18b good thing I'm not claiming it as original. Then again, I'm not a scriptwriter for a nameless alleged comedian.
ah, so Born as the same thing as Bourne (turns up in a lot of place names) would be very related to the Scots "burn", which is still in common useage for anything from streams through to small rivers
Is there a stream or river at Bannockburn? Or did some fool burn their bannocks there?
There is. It might surprise you to discover that it's called Bannock Burn.
@@acciid the English defeat was as a result of the Scots trapping them against the Bannockburn and running then through with lances.
Great explanation Jago. Please can you do the derivation of Islington? Thanks.
You might want to consider how come the Holborn Union Workhouse was in Mitcham , Surrey (later site of among other things, Pye Records (Transco/PRT) Pressing Plant and Distribution Warehouse
Horatio Nelson once stayed in Kentish Town, as he said, "To keep an eye on the Fleet".
You can smell it even if you can’t see it
Having lived for 14 years in Hertfordshire, I have come to know a bourne as a stream that only flows seasonally. This would normally be in the autumn and winter with the streams or bournes being bone dry in the summer.
In Dorset streams that flow primarily in winter are specifically called winterbournes (even though "summerbournes" are unheard of) and provide the names for many villages, such as Winterborne Kingston and Winterborne Stickland, and similarly in Wiltshire although there the "bourne" part is spelt with a "u". And we still have Wimborne and Bournemouth for towns that are on streams that flow all all-year.
Nailbournes, in Kent. There's one near Bekesbourne.
Still waiting for the well!
Cracking little railway with some wonderful pubs....😊
So many tube stations have a different name to where they are located
Hi Jago. "It's all very confusing, really" - Spike Milligan.
Ah yes, the Fleet... A favourite, but I really wonder about the scale of things. It is said that it was navigable some distance from the Thames. By how big a vessel..?
I wonder if born and burn (a Scottish term for a small stream) are from the same source? 🤔 By 'wonder', I actually mean I can't be bothered to do the research! 😊
This was my thought, exactly.
Then you should be a TH-cam content producer (not a good one like Mr H).
or Beck as used in Cumbria (from the Viking word)
@@a11oge Its not really just a "viking word". There were similar words in all germanic languages, including the Old English "bec" and Old Norse "bekkr", that mean the same thing.
They're variants of the same word, yes. In Aberdeen we have a "Holburn", which has the exact same origin as the London name.
Nice nugget of information. PS where did Tufnell Park get its name, maybe double up with film about the station 😀😀
Nothing to do with Nigel ‘this goes to eleven’ Tufnell of course!
Hello friend, I'm not sure if you cover outside London the commuter belt. Can you do one on Hemel Hempstead the old name being called Boxmoor and the old Nickey Line, thanks.
Please can you do an episode on Belgravia, which I understand once was a swamp, before being turned into an upmarket suburb.
Well.
Follow That!
Who is the earl that earl’s court is named after? When I did tourism back in the 80s I did hostels. The other big hostel was the small part of a major manor that had been destroyed by the blitz. The manor was owned by some Whig grandee during the regency
3:48 Is that a compliment or an insult?
So Fleet River shared a similar history with the Zenne River in Brussels. River turned into sewer, and covered up. Though the Zenne is still visible outside Brussels.
Any Hippos in the wallow in the hollow ?
“You are the enclosure to my open sewer”. One of your best yet 👍🏻
Also, a borne is one of those streams that flows only in the winter. Hence all the Winterbournes everywhere!
The notorious Fleet Prison was here also. And I think Fleet means fast moving, but I could be wrong about that.
Hence ‘fleet of foot’.
I always thought that the Fleet line was colored gray, because that was the color of the river.
There is an excellent book I heartily recommend, Lost Rivers of London, if you can find it. I've lost mine. Seriously, it's a good read and worth a series on its own.
How about a video on Kingsbury and Queensbury? Both are tube stations and the areas have interesting facts.
Burn is well used word in North and Scotland for small river.
Apparently, The Great Northern Hotel was curved to follow the banks of the Fleet River.
This was interesting.
Thank you.
☮
It was curved to follow the line of the link from the Metropolitan Railway up to the suburban side of Kings Cross station - the notorious "Hotel Curve"
@@norbitonflyer5625 Maybe. But that's not what it says in wikipedia. So until I see evidence to the contrary? That is what I am going on.
"Prior to the building of Kings Cross station and its curved hotel, the Fleet followed what was known as Kings Road. When Kings Cross main station was opened in 1852, the Fleet’s route was changed to go via the front of the station (this explains why the station frontage is at an angle to the Euston Road and not parallel with it) The Great Northern Hotel’s curved structure reflects the alignment of the Hotel Curve tunnel. The Fleet river’s sewer runs approximately along the route of the Hotel Curve. . Basically the Fleet runs along the west side of the Great Northern Hotel".
So the railway cut across the original course of the Fleet, the hotel follows the curve of the railway, and the Fleet was diverted to follow that curve.
Do a video on Clerkenwell, the well might be of interest to some people! And it’s Holl-born 😂😂😜 Nice video as always though 😅
Tenuous titbit: ‘Old Holborn’ was my father’s rolling tobacco of choice, with the distinctive half-timbered building on the packaging.
The buildings pictured on the tin lid are still there. One of the shops used to be a tobacconist which I used in smoking days, but now inevitably it's a coffee shop.
@@davidholt7883 - Thanks for your reply David, I may take a wander that way next time I’m in London.
By Chancery Lane Station, opposite Grays Inn Road. A little journey through the past. Enjoy.
My family come from Holborn my nan & great grandmother were flower sellers ( flower girls ) out side Holborn tube supplying carnations for button holes to city gents but I must insist the proper pronunciation is with no H or L !! so it sounded like o’burn. Good video 👍
Underground station names often have little to with the locations eg Dollis Hill, Kilburn Jubilee line etc. Well done nevertheless. Holborn underground was originally called Holborn & Kingsway. Queens Park underground is in Salusbury Rd west Kilburn ( see Brent Kilburn Library and Police station) . Holborn viaduct station was nearest to the Fleet river and High Holborn
I wonder if they used to say "it stinks to High Holborn" (assuming it stank any worse than the rest of London... ) Cheers Jago!
It’s whole-burn
An entire river buried and completely disappeared?? This is the first time I'm hearing of such a thing. Had no idea it was possible. Fascinating!
The recorded voice lady says Ho-burn which I don't feel belongs on the long list of valid options.
I used to live in coram street,and the river ran under our house,in the winter when the sewer was under full pressure it used to seep up in to our basement, due to the bombing in the Second World War, and we had black rats in the house,and sum shops in marchment street as well,you just get used to it, and the rats were just visiting for food,quite funny when you think of it.
the Tyburn tree gallows was so named because tree was a corruption of tribus (pronounced tree bus) means three and it had three legs and not as some have stated because people were hanged in trees, , the words triple, three, tricycle, treble and triplets all come from the word tribus meaning 3
Was always fascinated by what was left of the Goods Spur off Fenchurch Street near St Botolph without Aldgate as found in the Ordnance Survey Map of Whitechapel, Spitalfields & the bank 1873
I'd be very surprised if there's anything visible left. I've worked in Minories, Fenchurch Street and Houndsditch so know the area quite well, but can't think of anything that might be a remnant.
@@caw25sha I always looked at the viaduct spur over Chamber Street/Prescot Street which abruptly ended but one could still clearly see the stub end of what was once a spur to a Goods Depot north of Haydon Street which is now a Bus Depot/Hilton but I've never been able to find any plans/drawings/etc of what the actual Goods Depot actually looked like
@@philipfischer1612 Hmm, interesting. Video perhaps Mr Hazzard?
@@caw25sha See Jago vid on Minories
@@highpath4776 thanks
Camberwell, possible derivatives are ‘come and be well’, Cam (Anglo Saxon meaning crooked). Have you any other suggestions?
Burn, variant of bourne, quite common in Scotland for a river
City Thameslink, Chancery Lane, St. Paul’s, Holborn and St. Paul’s Cathedral are all in Holborn. And I think Moorgate was once in Holborn but is slightly north of Holborn but still in the City of London. Even Soho is in Holborn.
Holborn is bigger than it really is
Indeed. It isn’t that big.
I'd love to know more about the Rivers of London
Three mins to watch the vid (on 1.25) 20 mins to read the comments
Cracking video:-)
Scant regard for anything ancient - tell that to the kids on the bus this afternoon
Thanks
I'd like to know the naming behind bounds green
Good one Jago 👍
Ludgate - meaning?