Flat Or 4Bet With Pocket Queens? | Preflop Strategy & Range Quiz Part 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2024
- Check out this guide to get a firm understanding of 3bet ranges and the process of building them properly: www.splitsuit.com/understandi...
Part 2 of this 10-part series breaks down SplitSuit's Preflop quiz, testing your ability to craft ranges and choose lines based upon those answers. If you have not taken the quiz yet, start here: www.splitsuit.com/preflop-ran...
This video deals with 2 questions:
1. What range did a LAG squeeze with from the big blind?
2. Is calling or 4betting the better option with QQ?
SplitSuit breaks down the average range that players assigned here (coming in around 19% of hands), and explains why this range might actually be a bit too wide. Yes, aggressive players do 3bet wider than tighter players - but strong aggressive players keep position and WHO their opponents are in mind BEFORE pulling the trigger. After building ranges, Split looks at the almost 70/30 poll that favors 4betting over flatting. While 4betting is certainly an option, this exact situation might actually make flatting the preferred play...
*IMPORTANT LINKS*
* How to hand read in 3bet pots: www.splitsuit.com/the-power-o...
* The theory behind value 4betting: www.splitsuit.com/value-4-bet...
* Playing at aggressive tables: • Aggro Table Battle Pla...
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Nice analysis. I think, I answered 10% for the LAG´s 3-betting range, and to be honest I think, that is a pretty high number already. James have an important point, that the fish is likely going to call, and therefore the LAG cant really bluff squeeze.
He can widen his value range, but its up for debate, if hands like 77 or KJ are really a 3-bet for value, even against the fish. We need to remember here also, that the LAG will be out of position against the fish, if he get called.
I also answered 4-bet, but on second thoughts I agree, we should just flat here to keep the fish involved. He can make a ton of mistakes postflop with crappy pairs or weird draws, when we flop an overpair or even a set. And if we see a K or A on the board, we can just get out with no regrets.
Love the video. Thank you for introducing us to flopzilla. it makes awkward spots easier if you do the off table work.
You're very welcome Dale! I have a full video showing how to use Flopzilla here if you're interested: www.splitsuit.com/flopzilla
Cheers!
As always great video! One thing that your videos and supplemental materials often refer to are HUD stats (someone is an xx/xx etc.). I'm in the US and don't play online with HUD stats so I would ask if you occasionally mention what those stats are/mean so it will be easier for us US dinosaurs to follow along. I've watched the HUD video that you put out but if you don't use it, people tend to forget. In any case, please keep up these highly informative videos. Thanks a ton.
Cheers! If you ever need a refresher, just bookmark this guide that I wrote: redchippoker.com/basic-hud-stats/
I have been using a situational no 4 bet strategy and it works out pretty well. Obviously not a hundred percent of the time. I can play very well post flop and this hand under repped will get me paid so so much. Watching pro players has shown me that they try to take the gamble out of poker by using ranges and seeing all five cards. Not four betting as to not get it all in bad, or at best flipping. Also allowing my opponent to bluff with worst cards and allowing me to bluff with blockers , board run out, etc.
Would love to see some postflop reactions on this and the last video
Wouldn't A5s or A4s be a much better hand to squuze with than A9s or A8s
Could you explain why A5s>A8s here in 2 or 3 sentences? I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just think writing out your rationale will be a good exercise =)
@@splitsuit When you're 3 betting here with A8s or A5s it's going to be the bottom of your range and you're going to fold to a 4bet with both hands. However when hero calls here I think A5s plays better because it can hit a straight or straight draw. Hero is never going to call here with a worse ace than A8 so the 8 doesn't hold very much value. So I would prefer balancing our squueze range with A5s better than A8s.
Nice job Anton! The only thing I'd add to the discussion is this:
1. A5 flops a made-straight 0.3% of the time, not quite a game-changing number
2. A5 will flop gutshots about 2x as often as A8, but given the small SPR, it's not like the draw value gets actualized a ton of the time
3. While hero likely doesn't give action with hands where the 8 vs. 5 matters, the fish might.
So while I agree with you that A5 is usually prefered over A8, they are both candidates for adding to the "weak" part of the 3betting pie chart =)
We are assuming the fish is going to call the 100. Isn't it possible that lag assumes fish called on button with almost any 2 cards and will fold to a 3bet especially if hero folds to lags 3bet? It is player dependent but that may widen lags 3bet range and increase possibility he is stealing. I really like the call here because I think it increases odds fish calls and preflop and lag cbets flop.
IMO, calling with QQ is a higher variance but higher winrate option, whereas 4-betting with QQ is a lower variance but lower winrate option.
By the same rationale, would we be flatting KK and AA here with a semi-high frequency as well?
I would, yup
My question is following:
Calling creates a ballpark of 2 SPR and it's easy to play postflop if you flop an overpair.. also it isn't that hard to fold when there is an A on board and you face lots of agression. But how would you play a dry K high board as a default? Stack off? Check-call one street and check-fold the other? Fold right away?
I will assume, we are talking about the expected situation with 3-way action? If the LAG fires a C-bet into two opponents, QQ is a fold right away on a K high flop with another guy left to act behind. If the LAG check, we should check as well. If the fish then fire in position, and the LAG call, we should fold. If the fish fire in position, and the LAG fold, its really close, and how I would react, would depend very much on my read on the fish. If he is bluff heavy, QQ is a decent bluff catcher, but if not we can probably still just make the fold and look for a better spot. Of course sizing matter as well. If the fish come in for a silly size like 10% of the pot, then I am not folding a showdownable hand like QQ.
I would typically call the flop and feel out the turn...
I like the concept behind flatting but I don't know if you can do that 100% of the time. If you do, then you end up not having a 4 bet range at all in this spot, as a consequence when a fish calls your raises, a good lag would know that they can squeeze and retain the initiative 100% of the time. What if instead we flat AA and KK and 4 bet the weaker part of our value range TT, JJ, QQ and some bluffs?
You could. Though to your point, how much is initiative really worth in a 2-3 SPR pot that is likely multi-way?
Does this situation happen often enough, and are you playing often enough against this particular LAG for him to find out, what your 4-betting range is?
Range is only important when ur tryna minimize risks. U could flat aa or 4 bet aa. Not qq which is obviously even or behind many hands like ak aa kk
Drastick Rebel QQ is ahead of AK. But ranges are not about minimizing risk...they are the lifeblood of poker decisions and frame every decision
fundiver198 well, if I can tag him as a LAG it means I have played some against him and he probably has me tagged too 😄
A tonne of extra value when we flop that overpair? What does this mean? If a higher card comes or if the board is all lower?
Flop an overpair would mean that the flop came, say, J73. Three cards smaller than Q. Obviously a Q is pretty much a lock, and an Ace is very scary and a King somewhat scary.
@@brianfarley4814 thanks!
And the idea is, that if the fish has AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, J9, J8, he will stack it off, because "LOL I have top pair". And if he have T9, T8, 98, he will also stack it off, because "LOL I can make a straight". And since QQ is way ahead of all those hands, there is a ton of value in letting him see a flop and hopefully catch a piece of it. Of course he will sometimes have J7 or 33 as well, but thats why, we have a bankroll.
I like a flat here too, but I’m highly considering a 4-bet vs a LAG that’ll put me in tough spots on later streets with a hand as vulnerable as QQ. May I ask what you roughly assess your 4bet sizing to be IF you do 4-bet? $280-$320?
I think 4betting that large sends a message that you have no bluffs (and thus it likely cannot induce lighter 5bets). I would be closer to $225-$250.
James (SplitSuit) You would also say it’s largely dependent on your opponent. If my opponent perceives a 4bet to $225-$250 is always value, we might be cheating ourselves if we don’t raise bigger to say $280 if our opponent perceives a $280 sizing as bluffy. I agree with a $225 sizing all in all. Thanks James!
Anytime =)
How come sometimes a 3bet seems to be like 5 times the previous bet, but still called a 3bet? (Ex in this video you raise to 20 and get 3bet to 100) And similarly I hear 4bet sometimes when its only 3 times the bet.
Because the terms 3bet, 4bet, 5bet, etc. have nothing to do with size. A 3bet is the first re-raise preflop, a 4bet is the second re-raise preflop, etc. I hope that helps =)
@@splitsuit So is that the same for every street? Or just preflop?
Makes much more sense though thank you
@Leon Chess same everywhere. Just note that some players might say "I got raised 3x", which doesn't exactly denote what kind of raise it is, but it does note that the raise size is 3x the original bet.
had the effective stacks been much larger, you would lean more towards a 4! pre?
Not necessarily. At certain stack depths, you may not have much of a 4bet+ range, in which case keeping stronger combos in your flatting range can make a lot of sense.
@@splitsuit sorry what do you mean by much of a 4bet+ range? You mean you just want to have a narrow polarized 4bet range?
For your own exploration: can you think of a spot where you *could* 4bet, but it would actually be better to call with ALL hands you'd give their 3bet action with?
@@splitsuit well I think it would generally be better to call in a heads up situation vs a LAG that is good enough to fold to your 4! pre but has a 3! range that you crush, so you could look to call him down post flop and under rep your hand
My intuition was to 4! simply because I don't want to play QQ 3-ways squeezed between two opponents. Do we really think the EV is greater to flat and hope we can win this pot 3 ways?
You could certainly run a few breakdowns in CREV to eyeball it =)
you're not really squeezed tho. you have a SPR of 2. Which makes any kind of flop decision easy. A or K comes on the flop and Lag continues, fold. Anything else call, or jam yourself. I can only talk for the german poker szene, there is a lot of fishes around here aswell. but not even fishes call 4 bets with anything worse then AQs, so basically his range would be. AA,KK,QQ,JJ and AKs AKo and AQs. In this szenario QQ doesnt perfom to good.
@@darkmentosmax7549 That is exactly the case for just flatting. 4-betting might be optimal against the LAG. But its letting the fish off the hock for cheap and allowing him to play near perfect.
Why does the LAG's range matter in our decision to 4 bet if our primary goal is to get the fish to come along by flatting?
Wouldn't their range be important when you flat and have to play postflop?
Of course, but it doesn't seem to make any difference to the question asked if we are always calling to get fish money.
It may not mean much when we have QQ, but it's everything when we have the other 90% of our opening range. As always, extra reps helps us handle a wider array of spots =)
I strongly disagree with the decision to flat QQ and think it's bad enough to comment.
I would have guessed a competent but aggro LAG would be squeezing somewhere around the 10%, but I will happily go with 13.7% as you have much more experience at this game than me. The advantage of 4betting this spot is that the LAG can't really play "perfectly" in this spot and not give your QQ at least some value. If they stack off with QQ+,AK they would be folding to a 4bet over 80% of the time which is ridiculously bad and as you yourself have stated regarding defending against 3bets leaves you open to being exploited. So IMO LAG has a lot of room to pay off QQ, even TT+,AQs+,AKo involves LAG folding around 75% and we are a favourite against that range, albeit only 53%.
But I think the biggest problem with flatting is going to be post. The A,K obviously suck but I think the bigger problem will come in lower/middling co-ordinated boards like 8h7d9h. The LAG will still go broke with his OP's/fDs/straight/66/T9 but now our QQs really don't look that hot. TT/JJ/66/FD's have reasonable equity and we are just dead vs KK+,Straight, sets (9combos). Other examples of flops of pain are JdTc8s, 6h9hJh (we have no heart). In short any advantage of keeping the huge fish is massively offset by the fact QQ's really aren't that invulnerable and we have the worst relative position to take advantage of it.
But I do love flatting AA and maybe KK here. QQ is just too weak not to take the preflop equity edge imo. I would love a response to this from you James as I respect your advice a lot. I hope I haven't come across as arrogant but I do strongly disagree on this one.
Strongly agree, Richard - listening to the proposed solution of flatting QQ really makes me feel uncomfortable.
By flatting we give the fish way to good pot odds and will be the guy in the middle with a lot of possible bad flops to come, as you already pointed out. Furthermore, playing life, I could even see myself 4bet to ~270-290 and fold to a 5bet jam if I have a read on my opponent, saving me money on dry flops where I just call preflop and have the overpair.
Trapping with AA sometimes to strengthen your 3bet callling range sounds good, especially with the fish behind us is likely to come along.
One more point: If we don't 4bet QQ in this spot, how does our 4bet range look like? KK, 75%AA, 75%AKs, AKo, A4s, A5s? Sounds a bit to nitty to me.
Cheers.
I think a small 4 bet and call off 100bb deep.
QQ is a top 1% hand. If someone flats in this spot they’re obviously only 4-betting two hands. Incredibly easy to range your opponent & almost impossible to be profitable long term. Ppl who don’t 4-Bet Queens shouldn’t play Poker.
I think the LAGs 3bet range should be bigger because you are more likely to fold with another player behind you and so he can isolate the fish.
Does the LAG really want to isolate a fish with J8o and K5s?
@@splitsuit not that much bigger i agree, but i that's the reason why i would go for the 10j, 910 suited in his range aswell instead of the 10% range.
Totally fair =)
I think I'd mostly make a small 4bet here, simply because it's the lower variance play. Even most "Huge Fish" know to get out of the middle of a 4bet situation; and it's likely a good LAG knows to give up there depending on my image atm. If I was feeling a bit gambley, I'd probably flat and try to max profit.
Always flat
1st like
1st like of your like.
If u cant call a 5 bet dont 4 bet.
That's a very limited (and quite incorrect) line of reasoning.
@@splitsuit how about if you are 300 BB deep. Then how about "if cant call a 7 bet dont 6 bet? I feel like when villian 5 bets, is almost always (95%?) AK+?