And again we return to tubes with your choice of a tube with less gain. So now, you are the tube and speaker match-maker. This opens up yet another huge avenue of discussion . . . and questions . . .
Nice! Thanks for showing the waveforms. Shows exactly why I went in the opposite direction and put a C12Q in mine, so I could turn it up and get a more driven amp sound/feel without everyone complaining it was too loud. ; ) But of course I don't play jazz in a Big Band. Cheers.
Very timely video! My 1977 Deluxe Reverb with a 9 year old Jensen C12Q broke up way too early for my liking. I installed a 25 year old Celestion Vintage 30 I had lying around and I have much more clean headroom. The C12Q was put into my Carvin Vintage 16 combo amp (3 - 12AX7's, 2 - EL84's) and it sounds great in there. For the Carvin amp, I like the overdriven sound. I have one more comparison to make. I have a 100 Watt Fender (Eminence) speaker in a semi-open back cabinet I built and want to compare it to the Vintage 30. I also have a Carvin GT12 100 watt speaker that came with the Vintage 16 combo. I don't know why they put that speaker in the combo, so for now it's in a box in my storage closet.
Perhaps what some players need is a head-cabinet version of a Deluxe Reverb, and two separate speaker cabinets: one that is very high efficiency for maximum output and headroom on larger stages or for gigging with louder bands, and another speaker cab with a speaker of much lower efficiency, so that you can push the amp hard and get the wonderful sound of an overdriven output stage but at less volume, for the studio, or for the basement or bedroom.
Not a bad idea. I built a head cabinet for my 1978 Super Twin Reverb, but for a different reason. In the combo, with the huge magnets on the speakers, it was just too heavy, even to set on a dolly and move to a different room.
I too built my Twin Rev., Super Rev. & Vibrolux Rev. into heads - just because I got sick of carrying anvil weights around to shows I did some OT swaps that added a good bit of weight too). Now I also love being able to use my different cabs / combos of cabs. All this helped in my constant quest for a cleaner tone
This seems to be one of the big secret tricks with the Deluxe, putting a high efficiency speaker in for more clean headroom, which is one of the things that makes a Deluxe such a killer pedal platform. In the 80s and 90s Dumble was doing it, Rivera was doing it and lots of studio players were putting EVs, JBLs and Altecs in their Deluxes... I've been on the hunt for an Altec for my '67 which breaks up at around 4 1/2 with the stock Jensen. This was a great example of what a difference it can make. I might have to make a move now.
maybe not just the deluxe... I remember a Bandmaster head on a huge, ported 2X12 cabinet loaded with a pair of JBL D112's. I would have LOVED that shimmering clean tone had I, back then, had the least interest at all in any kind of clean tone. For me (then), it was; All Distortion - All the Time! Like, if Jackie Chiles had been a guitar player; "If it don't distort, it ain't my sport!" "You put the klon on? Who told you to put the klon on? I didn't tell you to put the klon on! Why'd you put the klon on? 🙂
I was searching for similar results with my ‘82 PR II. I’ve settled on an old GE 12AY7R in V1, an ITT Japan 12AU7 in V2 ( to give me a more usable range of reverb), original GT 7025 in V3, a JAN Phillips 12AT7 in V4, and new Tung Sol 6V6 power tubes. The biggest difference came from installing the WGS Retro 30. Super efficient, sparkly top end, and tight low end. That amp now sounds closer a to BF Deluxe than it’s original configuration. It’s had a few minor mods I gleaned from the Stratopastor sight to help get me there, as well.
I never tried a lower gain tube tube for Reverb Driver. Esp on my Twin Reverb, the reverb is only really usable to 2. I put in a short reverb tank w/med. decay (a MOD 8ab2c1b) to soften it (+ the trails were ridiculously long before). That helped, but the tube swap might be in order as well. I'll try this later
There is a difference. To be fair did you put the same tubes in each amp? Probably a combination of tubes and speaker if your preamp tubes aren’t the same. Right?
I have a JBL in one of my Deluxe Reverbs. That is a really clean sounding speaker. The bog stock Fender Oxford is about a lackluster as it gets, unless you roll craps and get Utah Coil speakers. Utah Coil became Pyle Driver. Carboneau is a fabulous speaker, if you can find one. Those became PPI which became Rockford which obviously became Rockford Fosgate. Rockford liked Carboneau because he had a hard time blowing them out.
back in the day Leo Fender went to JBL's for more clean headroom -- funny stories about Dick Dale MELTING Jensen voice coils. The JbLs were much louder for the same wattage.
Recently replaced the Weber Blue Dog in my '82 PRII with a WGS Retro 30. Holy smokes what a difference! So much cleaner and endless sparkly top end. I had previously tried a WGS G12C which was OK, a WGS G12C/S which was dead and lifeless, before settling on the Weber. I was into earlier breakup and a little woolier sound at the time. I also use a 12AY7 in V1 and a 12AU7 in V2 to reduce gain and make the reverb more usable throughout the range of the pot. With 12AX7s the verb went to full tilt at 1/12, now I'm often between 4 and 6 and could still dime it I felt the need.
Eminence speakers are always crazy efficient for some reason. Their Wizard model in particular is rated at something like 103dB @1W@1m. Sounds great, but insanely loud.
D-120 would go pretty fine in this DR for what this players does ... Well. As time goes by, that WGS sounds pretty good! I still think the JBL would be smashing ...
Biased at 52% ??!! I'm always looking to clean up the sound on my Fender amps - but I never dared bias my tubes below ~65%. I just got 7581a's for my '71 Super Reverb to try to get a little more clean headroom. This is good info for when I set the bias
Hmmm, even I could test-play those speakers for you, since my guitar noodling is so disorganized as to be indistinguishable from some styles of jazz! 😁
through my listening system to your A/B comparison, it showed the same result as I have gotten comparing the Jensen C10Q to other drivers. (I long ago switched to 10's) The others were definitely louder before breakup. But very few had the same Hz curve that gives such a nice sparkle, yet without sounding harsh. (without spending scads of money) In this comparison, the WGS was obviously giving more output. But I still preferred (by a large margin) the prettier tones delivered by the Jensen.
You don't get any real increase in output power with 6L6s unless you go to a larger output transformer. You get a different sound with more compression - an argument can be made for better swing from the PI, but the primary impedance works against that. The level differences of these speakers are the kinds of level differences you get from doubling the power.
How does a lower gain preamp tube give more headroom ? All it does is make it seem like the pot taper is different whereby you have to turn the gain/volume knob further clockwise to get the same volume. But the dB coming out of the speaker is no different at breakup.
No, the Fender has a fixed gain stage before the volume control. It's not about the amp output volume, it's about the character of the preamp signal staying cleaner.
The WGS is definitely the direction and target sought be guitar players seeking to play smooth, sweet solos. The graphic seems to show the dimensional envelope being expanded as much or more by saturation as loudness. Some guitar players will considerate the WGS conversion mandatory. Other guitar players may deem arming the arsenal with that last ounce of gorgeous sound as economically unjustified in the era propagated by Thad Jones and Mel Lewis. Opportunities to play with subtle finesse at delicate dynamic markings are less likely to occur in 20th, and 21st century big bands never achieving less than oh my God sound levels.
![CAMPปลิ้น | EP.83[1/2] เปิดแคมป์หลอนต้อนรับ 2 ตัวพ่อแห่งวงการผี!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2uPuHYHgwiI/mqdefault.jpg)
And again we return to tubes with your choice of a tube with less gain. So now, you are the tube and speaker match-maker. This opens up yet another huge avenue of discussion . . . and questions . . .
Nice! Thanks for showing the waveforms. Shows exactly why I went in the opposite direction and put a C12Q in mine, so I could turn it up and get a more driven amp sound/feel without everyone complaining it was too loud. ; ) But of course I don't play jazz in a Big Band. Cheers.
Very timely video! My 1977 Deluxe Reverb with a 9 year old Jensen C12Q broke up way too early for my liking. I installed a 25 year old Celestion Vintage 30 I had lying around and I have much more clean headroom. The C12Q was put into my Carvin Vintage 16 combo amp (3 - 12AX7's, 2 - EL84's) and it sounds great in there. For the Carvin amp, I like the overdriven sound. I have one more comparison to make. I have a 100 Watt Fender (Eminence) speaker in a semi-open back cabinet I built and want to compare it to the Vintage 30. I also have a Carvin GT12 100 watt speaker that came with the Vintage 16 combo. I don't know why they put that speaker in the combo, so for now it's in a box in my storage closet.
Perhaps what some players need is a head-cabinet version of a Deluxe Reverb, and two separate speaker cabinets: one that is very high efficiency for maximum output and headroom on larger stages or for gigging with louder bands, and another speaker cab with a speaker of much lower efficiency, so that you can push the amp hard and get the wonderful sound of an overdriven output stage but at less volume, for the studio, or for the basement or bedroom.
Not a bad idea. I built a head cabinet for my 1978 Super Twin Reverb, but for a different reason. In the combo, with the huge magnets on the speakers, it was just too heavy, even to set on a dolly and move to a different room.
I too built my Twin Rev., Super Rev. & Vibrolux Rev. into heads - just because I got sick of carrying anvil weights around to shows I did some OT swaps that added a good bit of weight too). Now I also love being able to use my different cabs / combos of cabs. All this helped in my constant quest for a cleaner tone
Listened- and learned stuff. Nice way to learn something - as time goes by. 😂👊👊
This seems to be one of the big secret tricks with the Deluxe, putting a high efficiency speaker in for more clean headroom, which is one of the things that makes a Deluxe such a killer pedal platform. In the 80s and 90s Dumble was doing it, Rivera was doing it and lots of studio players were putting EVs, JBLs and Altecs in their Deluxes... I've been on the hunt for an Altec for my '67 which breaks up at around 4 1/2 with the stock Jensen.
This was a great example of what a difference it can make. I might have to make a move now.
maybe not just the deluxe...
I remember a Bandmaster head on a huge, ported 2X12 cabinet loaded with a pair of JBL D112's.
I would have LOVED that shimmering clean tone had I, back then, had the least interest at all in any kind of clean tone. For me (then), it was; All Distortion - All the Time! Like, if Jackie Chiles had been a guitar player; "If it don't distort, it ain't my sport!"
"You put the klon on? Who told you to put the klon on? I didn't tell you to put the klon on! Why'd you put the klon on?
🙂
I was searching for similar results with my ‘82 PR II. I’ve settled on an old GE 12AY7R in V1, an ITT Japan 12AU7 in V2 ( to give me a more usable range of reverb), original GT 7025 in V3, a JAN Phillips 12AT7 in V4, and new Tung Sol 6V6 power tubes. The biggest difference came from installing the WGS Retro 30. Super efficient, sparkly top end, and tight low end. That amp now sounds closer a to BF Deluxe than it’s original configuration. It’s had a few minor mods I gleaned from the Stratopastor sight to help get me there, as well.
I never tried a lower gain tube tube for Reverb Driver. Esp on my Twin Reverb, the reverb is only really usable to 2. I put in a short reverb tank w/med. decay (a MOD 8ab2c1b) to soften it (+ the trails were ridiculously long before). That helped, but the tube swap might be in order as well. I'll try this later
@@monto39 Do it!!
There is a difference. To be fair did you put the same tubes in each amp? Probably a combination of tubes and speaker if your preamp tubes aren’t the same. Right?
I changed the original Oxford in my ’71 to a Weber P12N and the difference was astounding. Much more bass and volume and later breakup.
I have a JBL in one of my Deluxe Reverbs. That is a really clean sounding speaker. The bog stock Fender Oxford is about a lackluster as it gets, unless you roll craps and get Utah Coil speakers. Utah Coil became Pyle Driver. Carboneau is a fabulous speaker, if you can find one. Those became PPI which became Rockford which obviously became Rockford Fosgate. Rockford liked Carboneau because he had a hard time blowing them out.
back in the day Leo Fender went to JBL's for more clean headroom -- funny stories about Dick Dale MELTING Jensen voice coils. The JbLs were much louder for the same wattage.
Recently replaced the Weber Blue Dog in my '82 PRII with a WGS Retro 30. Holy smokes what a difference! So much cleaner and endless sparkly top end. I had previously tried a WGS G12C which was OK, a WGS G12C/S which was dead and lifeless, before settling on the Weber. I was into earlier breakup and a little woolier sound at the time. I also use a 12AY7 in V1 and a 12AU7 in V2 to reduce gain and make the reverb more usable throughout the range of the pot. With 12AX7s the verb went to full tilt at 1/12, now I'm often between 4 and 6 and could still dime it I felt the need.
WGS Veteran 30 in a Deluxe Reverb + Telecaster = Magic
A Deluxe Reverb has a scooped sound, so a middy speaker like a Vintage 30 (Veteran 30) mates well.
This speaker sounds wonderful. Very crystal clear. I want to hear how it sounds with a jcm800 or something (high gain) like that.
What's the closest substitute for the JBL's Fender offered in the 60's?
Weber California is supposed to be pretty close
Eminence speakers are always crazy efficient for some reason. Their Wizard model in particular is rated at something like 103dB @1W@1m. Sounds great, but insanely loud.
The little blip with the recorded output cover it nicely.
I recently ordered a JBL D123f that I am going to try in my Deluxe Reverb.
D-120 would go pretty fine in this DR for what this players does ... Well. As time goes by, that WGS sounds pretty good! I still think the JBL would be smashing ...
Biased at 52% ??!! I'm always looking to clean up the sound on my Fender amps - but I never dared bias my tubes below ~65%. I just got 7581a's for my '71 Super Reverb to try to get a little more clean headroom. This is good info for when I set the bias
Hmmm, even I could test-play those speakers for you, since my guitar noodling is so disorganized as to be indistinguishable from some styles of jazz! 😁
through my listening system to your A/B comparison, it showed the same result as I have gotten comparing the Jensen C10Q to other drivers. (I long ago switched to 10's)
The others were definitely louder before breakup. But very few had the same Hz curve that gives such a nice sparkle, yet without sounding harsh. (without spending scads of money)
In this comparison, the WGS was obviously giving more output. But I still preferred (by a large margin) the prettier tones delivered by the Jensen.
Curiously enough, I found the c12q to be louder more well and nicely defined. 😳
Sounds good!
So he plays, say, an ES-175 or similar?
Remarkable !
Curious as to why you didn't substitute the 6L6 instead...seems like a obvious choice providing the voltages are there and OT can handle it?
You don't get any real increase in output power with 6L6s unless you go to a larger output transformer. You get a different sound with more compression - an argument can be made for better swing from the PI, but the primary impedance works against that.
The level differences of these speakers are the kinds of level differences you get from doubling the power.
@@PsionicAudio 👍
How does a lower gain preamp tube give more headroom ? All it does is make it seem like the pot taper is different whereby you have to turn the gain/volume knob further clockwise to get the same volume. But the dB coming out of the speaker is no different at breakup.
No, the Fender has a fixed gain stage before the volume control. It's not about the amp output volume, it's about the character of the preamp signal staying cleaner.
The WGS is definitely the direction and target sought be guitar players seeking to play smooth, sweet solos. The graphic seems to show the dimensional envelope being expanded as much or more by saturation as loudness. Some guitar players will considerate the WGS conversion mandatory. Other guitar players may deem arming the arsenal with that last ounce of gorgeous sound as economically unjustified in the era propagated by Thad Jones and Mel Lewis. Opportunities to play with subtle finesse at delicate dynamic markings are less likely to occur in 20th, and 21st century big bands never achieving less than oh my God sound levels.
The depressing thing for me Lyle, is that the more videos of your that I watch, the more I learn, but I also realize how little I know.
Try not to be a dummy. Good luck.
🤷🏻♂️
Another way to change efficiency is to put a 12AX7 in V6 of a Deluxe. You'll get grit earlier on the knob. It's perfectly safe for the amp.