I was WRONG about SWAPPING SPEAKERS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2024
- For my Presets visit: johnnathancordy.gumroad.com/ I've always held the view that Amp builders probably pick a speaker that works well with an amp, and as a result, changing out speakers on amps was probably a little bit of a rabbit hole that may or may not be necessary. Of course, my experimentations with modellers have led me to the conclusion that essentially a speaker is a big EQ at the end of your signal chain, and one of the most powerful tone shaping components...So when I was disappointed to find that the stock Jensen speaker in the Princeton sounds...Well...Kinda raspy - I figured it was time to order a Celestion Gold!
Back in 1965, this was the second cheapest amplifier that Fender made, the only cheaper amplifier was the Fender Vibro Champ, at roughly half the price of a Princeton.
Given that Mesa Boogie started out as hot rodded Fender Princetons, I've always had an interest in them, and figured at 12-15 watt they're a good candidate for a small practice amp suitable for home/rehearsal, and frankly most gigs these days. Wait. What gigs?
www.buymeacoffee.com/johnnath... - if you like what I do and
only if you wanted, you could buy me a coffee!
/ johnnathancordy - backing tracks here! - เพลง
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Having the back of the amp so close to the wall makes a huge difference in how open back combo’s sound.
I really liked this video and the way you conveyed your observations. Love your playing!
The gold 10” is great for that amp but I’ve also been running a 12” greenback. You can get a 12” baffle on monotone or from others. I always swap my fender amps stock speaker to a British speaker usually. I use to use g12h-30s in tweed deluxe but now it’s a greenback in lower wattage and the heritage g12-65 in higher wattage amps...and a modded, boasted wattage, tweed deluxe. The Eric Johnson alnico is great too.
Phenomenal playing, John! Man, you can lay down some tasty stuff. Love it!!
He can make any speaker sound good. Excellent guitar player.
I put my Tonetubby alnico red 10" in a Princeton Recording amp. It was an amazing transformation IMO. The same speaker even made my friend's Frontman 25R sound like a decent amp. So much so it even got me through a gig once.
I put a Warehouse ET 65 in my Fender Champion 40 watt (I got used for $40). Sounds awesome and gig worthy. EV 12Ls were my first venture into swapping and EVs are incredible (and HEAVY) but great speakers. I can go on, but I'll stop here.
I just put a emi 1058 in my RI and I think you might really like it. A little bit of sparkle but no fizz and a very interesting midrange. I would like to try a gold too but I'm relatively happy with the 1058.
Came here for the Princeton, stayed for the music. Thanks, that is some lovely playing in the video. Subbed :)
Never mind the amp your playing is awesome! Brill amp too.
Hey John, I worked low powerr Fender amps onstage 50+ years. Well I am sitting home due to covid, thinkng about my 76 Princeton Reverb and speakers.
Well, my brain tells me: remove chassis and tank. Install amp in a "head" cabinet with one or two top quality 8" drivers. I will consult pros in the choice of speaker,
!) I have a cool home amp.
2) the original cab and oxford speakers are preserved
3) I may now try various speakers and cab designs
Onstage, I mike off axis with a vintage SM57
Examine your typical needs onstage, for example, and verify how the amp will do great, m,ost of the time.
I like open back to communicate with other players typically
For the large venues, the sound company would feed my amp thru monitors
that's the perfect world.
as a retired sound contractor, I coach my musical friends as they audition gear in a store.
I recall telling my drummer "of course the snare sounds great" you are standing in a corner of the store
and the low mids are "horn loaded" . Don't stand in the corner.
And always, we perceive sound and pitch individually.
Physics of sound, and sound as we perceive it
Hope this makes sense. I work with one drummer Berkley grad and speaker designer
My other drummer was building horn loaded 18" JBL scoops from, baltic birch in the 1970's
I do my best to listen and follow the science and my budget.
you are an articulate player with great tone you will be OK
warm regards
Thank you for your extensive listening experience. very interesting.
This is my first time viewing your channel. I just wanted to say that I love your playing, also love the pooches, I hope they feature in your future efforts. They come to life when you play. My playing seems to send my little one to sleep, I must be dong It all wrong.
Sounds great, nice playing.
I’m listening to this video while I build a speaker cabinet for a custom build head voiced similar to the Princeton and I’m trying to decide on what speaker I want to install.
With the Princeton, using a speaker with more warmth and midrange will make the highs more musical. I am definitely looking for something to round off the harsh attack I currently get from the amp.
Hey John-
I put a Celestion Gold 10” speaker in my Princeton RI...huge improvement overall. Less spikey and tightened up the low end. I’ll be curious to see how it works for you!
Cheers
Awesome that's what im hoping the impact will be!!
Since you have a captor X you should try all the possible speaker combinations with the Torpedo software!
Conclusion: Manufacturers try to match a speaker to an amp as best as they can, but only you can be the judge of that result. Definitely change the speaker before you mod an amp! Cool video. I'd never personally consider pairing a Mesa C90 speaker with a Princeton so this just widened my horizons of possibilities...thanks!
Lovely Playing as always
I love Celestion Golds, too. Have 2 in my Crystal cab. I like Alnicos in pretty much everything.
So a good choice?
@@johnnathancordy that's harder to say, it's really up to personal taste. But it's a high quality speaker and is at least more likely to work well than the cost-cutting Jensen Fender insists in putting in their amps.
I have one of these and i felt the c10r speaker was to bright,so i tried the Jensen P10R-F and he sounded a way better than the stock speaker,smoother top end. Then i tried some 12inch speakers,and the Celestion Vintage 30 sound great in the princeton reverb,but the problem is that the speakermagnet is so big that it is so close to the reverb tank and make noise to the reverb.
I have the p10 RF too, great speaker. For now im using a cannibus rex
Very timely info, trying to solve the same problem on a vintage '68. One thought: on my Princeton, the whole baffle comes out with a few screws (it's actually the easy way to replace the speaker, get the whole baffle out). They have 12" baffles after-market. I've tried 10" speakers to replace my original Jensen and am starting to wonder if the issue is me trying to find a 10" that sounds like a 12" and mb I should just try a 12". (I tried a Weber 10F150-T, still spikey, Emi 1058, still spikey and too scooped)
That’s a tough call because a 12 has a different response. I’ve had the same dilemma. I have eight 12-inch greenbacks in a set of Marshall’s I rarely use because unless it’s set to nuclear, it doesn’t do the “Marshall thing.” I did go with a gold 10 inch in a vox and a preamp tube swap to a triode balanced Tung-sol. It sounded a little off to me ... until it broke in. I play Suhr guitars and they are a bit chimey, so I was looking for a speaker that wasn’t as flubby and had more headroom than the stock Vox. The Gold was my call as the greenbacks, in my opinion, can get a bit gristly clean with a Suhr. I didn’t go with a 12 because I wanted the quicker response time.
Happy tone-hunting 👍
I have the alnico jensen 10" in mine...sounds gorgeous:)
Jensen is the Princeton sound = glassy, chimey Pristine Fender clean's !!!
Also a good choice would be an Alessandro GA-SC64; available as 10" or12"
Agreed. Love mine!
Stick with Jensen original equipment speaker(they make various wattage in 12's, maybe 10's as well)...My best ever live tone came from an American made Fender Bullet plugged into a wah pedal (with only battery power), my solution to wall wart hiss getting into your tone....then straight into a used , 50 watt Peavey Classic, with spanking new Sovtek EL84 Setup throughout. Definite improvement in every way ! Back then it cost about 50 bucks plus shipping but the tone was impressive because the tubes were closer to spec I guess. My actual measured watts was about 38 before breaking up those four Peavey 10's into a snarl. I didn't need all the power the amp could create because the notes were more full and pronounced. Chords were gorgeous at 20 watts or so with drummer and talented bass player ...what fun !
Almost any guitar would sound good through a well made 4/10 speaker baffle. That Bullet had 7 possible sounds so with any good amp, I was all set.
I really like the sound of any Blue Back Jensen , to me, they sound sweeter than any of the gold back ceramic type.
2,4,or 8 ; 9Volt batteries last much, much longer than a single battery to run pedals all night . Build a spare also.
Fun, expensive build, but dead quiet, raw D.C. power. try it !
Even if it's 12 volts and you have only nine, double your voltage to 18 wire it and for sure make a spare if you only use two nine volt batteries. The voltage requirement for 18 draws batteries down quicker so more batteries are needed . If I were touring, I'd have backups for the backups probably built with 8 batteries each !
Ensures no embarrasment, yep, it happened to me, surprise gig in Westbrook Maine over 7/4/15 weekend, only one battery for electric, no good !
18 volts is more than enough for a 12 volt pedal, (in my opinion, of course) but 18 V needs at least 4 batteries...again my opinion.
Oh, back to my best tone ever..in the late 90's a music room was opened in a former pool hall where I cut my teeth on a 4.5 X 9 foot Brunswick Gold Crown table. I was o.k. at it for a minute but chasing it in poolrooms is wicked bad for a provider ...then you MUST win every time, and that ain't happenin' no matter how good you are.
The Devil is there pulling against whichever of the players loses his or her way anywhere along the way to victory. He is there just wringing his hands with glee when a crucial moment comes up, smiling, evil, just waiting for you to miss.
He doesn't care at all about your wife or children at home !
One of the best I 've ever seen at fighting it was a man who will remain un named but used drink and drug together to fight off the nerves. Miller High Life and yellow 5 mg. Valium. Amazing that he could even stand up...I couldn't have but he had much higher tolerance than I.
The poolroom had a high ceiling and good acoustics so the venue was majical as a music venue where previously it had been a source of torment to me.
To be excellent at it requires constantly doing it , working at a machine shop makes much more sense, but I was a stubborn prick about it back then. In 1980, you could get a game for anything from 50 cents to thousands per session and 500 bucks changed hands pretty quickly.
Be Here Now was the name of the venue then and it had super sessions and top players on Sunday nights and I just loved it.
I played there enough to be addicted to it.
Hi John, I’ve picked up an amp cab and loading with the 10” Gold but running it externally rather than swapping out. I think if you then run them at 4 Ohms it may increase the headroom a little. Not tried it yet.
An Eminence Cannabis Rex 10" is also a good choice for a Princeton.
cannibus is my speakewr of choice atm but it changes the character of the amp big time
I suggest trying a Line 6 PowerCab, just to sample a wide variety of speakers. I bet you keep it for the long run too!
Do you have any tips for the setting between PR65 and Captor X? I've found it quite difficult to get a good tone even worse in using O/D pedal... thanks a lot!
How do you like the Captor X with the Princeton? Does it "Tame" the Volume? I'm thinking about getting one for my Princeton. Great tone & playing. I like the stock speaker = very chimey and SRV sounding. Stay Safe.
Man, what kind of pickups are in that Tele? Sounded great!
My only comment on this topic is that while Jensen would rarely be a first or second pick for me on an upgrade, because of some of the qualities you mention, I have found that Jensens need significantly more time to break in, and the tone changes that follow, are fairly dramatic. I found that the bass deepens and warms up very noticeable and the harsher tones smooth out a fair amount. I’ve done speaker mods into Fender amps before using British voiced Celestions that have worked out well, but I do prefer to upgrade American voiced amps with American voiced speakers, Eminence, Jubilee, Weber, etc. Cute dog!
Beautiful playing and tone! Is that a drri 65 reissue amp? Also would you mind my asking which pickups are in the blue strat? Thank you.
Celestion gold is great, but brand new, they have A LOT of high end. I did that and at first hated it. Almost sold the gold, but decided I needed to break it in first. Being a 40watt speaker, the princeton would take a very very long time to break it in. I think a lot of people give up on them before they are broken in, so don't assume used = broken in either. But once it is broken in, it was everything I wanted. That said , if you want more immediate results, I've also had a great experience with an eminence ramrod. Right out of the box it made pedals sound fantastic with my princeton. It is a very meaty speaker, but really a great choice if you are running pedals for drive IMO.
So...next question - how do I break that thing in??!
FYI speaker break in is a myth told by manufacturers who want you to keep their products longer until your ears get used to it, perpetuated by reviewers and players who don't know any better. More of a psychoacoustic and marketing thing.
All that happens is the speaker's mechanical Q is lowered a bit causing a slight shift in Fs by an inaudible amount.
@@KYDY a controversial take, but I like it....any source for this?
Favorite quote from expert Floyd Toole about this, rather long but it's good:
In parts of the audio industry, there is a belief that all components from wires to electronics to loudspeakers need to “break in.” Out of the box, it is assumed that they will not be performing at their best. Proponents vehemently deny that this process has anything to do with adaptation, writing extensively about changes in performance that they claim are easily audible in several aspects of device performance. Yet, the author is not aware of any controlled test in which any consequential audible differences were found, even in loudspeakers, where there would seem to be some opportunities for material changes.
A few years ago, to satisfy a determined marketing person, the research group performed a test using samples of a loudspeaker that was claimed to benefit from “breaking in.” Measurements before and after the recommended break-in showed no differences in frequency response, except a very tiny change around 30-40 Hz in the one area where break-in effects could be expected: woofer compliance. Careful listening tests revealed no audible differences. None of this was surprising to the engineering staff. It is not clear whether the marketing person was satisfied by the finding. To all of us, this has to be very reassuring because it means that the performance of loudspeakers is stable, except for the known small change in woofer compliance caused by exercising the suspension and the deterioration-breaking down-of foam surrounds and some diaphragm materials with time, moisture, and atmospheric pollutants.
It is fascinating to note that “breaking-in” seems always to result in an improvement in performance. Why? Do all mechanical and electrical devices and materials acquire a musical aptitude that is missing in their virgin state? Why is it never reversed, getting worse with use? The reality is that engineers seek out materials, components, and construction methods that do not change with time. Suppose that the sound did improve over time as something broke in. What then? Would it eventually decline, just as wine goes “over the hill”? One can imagine an advertisement for a vintage loudspeaker: “An audiophile dream. Model XX, manufactured 2004, broken in with Mozart, Schubert, and acoustic jazz. Has never played anything more aggressive than the Beatles. Originally $1700/pair. Now at their performance peak - a steal at $3200!”
As the speaker is an electro-mechanical device, the mechanics will wear in and wear out. I find that putting my amp in a closet or shed with lots of moving blankets, playing a radio station for about 3~4 days. I don't blast it, I just make it work 24x7. Play the amp/speaker before, then after. I can really hear the speaker "relax". Not so spikey. I'm no pro or sniffer, but that's what I hear and feel.
Great bonus footage in this episode!
I put a Celestion G12 EVH into my Blackstar HT5R. it was a great upgrade until I decided to sell the amp minus the speaker. Shame it wont fit into my Yamaha Thr 10.
@Gary Crook It was very easy to fit it into my Blackstar. If your cab has a 12 speaker fitted then another make of speaker should fit. Sometimes they have solder on the connections. th-cam.com/video/l4_nUtzCZyA/w-d-xo.html
Hey John what is that box on top of the Princeton ?
I have a 12" celestion alnico blue in my Flynn Amps, Princeton clone, absolutely stunning hand built, hand wired Princeton. Princeton's should have come with 12" speakers, but no one would have bought the deluxe probably.
Too bassy for me. 10” has more clarity and is a tighter sound for a mix.
Hello, after having listened to what you have say and play all I can suggest is putting away all the pedals and just build your sound from the basics, Guitar/amp/speaker and how they all make feel.
huh
Just saw another video showing a blackface princeton reverb with a Weber 10f150, but the 50 watt version, and it sounded so sweet.
So there's another suggestion.
I wish it were a bit louder. Any suggestions? 64 non reverb with stock speaker. Thanks
In a live situation you may find the extra rasp useful however. Mellow luscious bedroom tones can get lost on stage... As my amp tech says, you can take stuff out but it’s harder to put it back in - within reason of course - some frequencies just won’t budge out of certain gear.
I think the Celestion Gold is substantially louder too which would be more useful on stage?
@@johnnathancordy Yes. I have a 12” one in a 30w 6L6 based cleanish amp.. It is very efficient but will break up nicely when pushed - Princeton probably won’t get it there but will hopefully sound nice and classic Alnico along the way.
For clean I run a compressor makes a prickly Princeton sweet.
Hey there - you running an attenuator with the Princeton? I've got one coming and I value your opinion. Would love to know if you have any recommendations? Cheers.
Looks like the home audience approves of the music. :>)
Personally, I think you were right with your initial thoughts on the matter. The stock speakers are the best match for the sound the Princeton is “supposed to” have. I’d say for the tone you’re after, you should have gotten a Deluxe Reverb, which out of the box is a more midrange amp with smoother drive characteristics. Making changes to a Princeton to change its core tone is like someone buying a Marshall Bluesbreaker and then trying different speakers to make it sound more like a Twin Reverb. Not that I think the idea of speaker swapping is bad - just that it’s better purpose is for trying to improve the sound of cheap little practice amps, rather than trying to change to core voice of an amp that is known and prized for its cleans, into something that is more suited for distortions.
What speaker did you settle on?
Though i am waiting for the guy to be back in touch hempopotomus loudspeakers on reverb has a ev 10l copy they sell
In today's episode, John discovers hair still grows in places where hair is.
Which Jensen was originally in that Princeton?
Put amp on floor for better base. Don't run backing tracks through the amp (not sure if you are or not.) Speaker sounded good. Cute dog.
YEA! You were wrong WRONG, JO NATHAN CORDY!
To a significant extent, speaker swaps do change the tone. But not all amps put out the same amount of bass, meds, and treble.
For instance Blues Jr put out a limited amount of bottom end. You can put that amp head in a larger cabinet with a speaker with loads of bottom end capability, but you’re not gonna get any more bottom end out of that amp then it is designed to put out.
A blues deluxe hot rod is designed to put out more bottom end then a Blues Jr. that has nothing to do with the size of the cabinet. You can use an extension cabinet for both and you will still see the same difference. This experiment I did. And I learned a lot by doing it.
With all that said, I agree with you that a speaker swap /upgrade is a good investment.
Any chance you could actually demo the speaker (drowned in reverb/delay) and rather than scales galore, maybe a clean chord strumming simple type demo? just a thought........
You have the opportunity to do that yourself Darren
I don't know about the Gold, it is a bright speaker, I would think a Creamback would be closer to your needs FWIW You'll probably document the change in another vid ;-)
get a mojo 12 baffle ....and put a 12 C90 in if you like the sound ....simples...
I once had a Fender Hot rod deluxe and swapped the original (fender special design) speaker for an Celestion Vintage! Never had that beautiful Fender sound again. What a disaster. Instead of beautiful Fender scooped sound I got a British rock sound (mid heavy). There are so many video demo's with speaker swapping and after the swap a demo. You can and will never hear the new speaker tone without breaking in the speaker. The most funny swap is a fender special design speaker for an Eminence bla bla speaker. And in the sound demo you can not hear very much difference cause the original speaker was already a Eminence bla bla speaker. Whe guitarist's are a very special specimen. lol And uh never ever swap a speaker in a modelling amp (like the mustang etc) for a guitar speaker. Speaker emulation is done by the electronics in the amp so swap it with a PA speaker if you want to swap! We guitarist's are a very special specimen. The swap from 8 to 10 or 12 give's a big change for the frequency respons of the combo and make a big difference in sound.
i still think you should build like 5 cabinets open /and few closed ,, and than test all mix speakers / or just test all and keep the success ones other sell give to children or use as low woofer for pc// id do that and u can not go wrong,,
Eminence 1028K!
Adorable Sausages in this video.
A 12 INCH SPEAKER THE BEST OVERALL SOUND CELESTION GREENBACK OR BLUE.
Funny, all you actually had to do was plug into input 2 on the amp.
Here’s the truth about Princetons: They are one of the most (if not the most) remarkable and super musical amps ever made. They take most speakers well, providing that the ohms and wattage are matched. Princetons can even drive a 100watt speaker. I’m talking from experience. If you have a Princeton and want to swap out the speaker, take your pick!
10 inch for me,too much bass no sparkle!
They're both 10"
I want to know why he has such a London 'gutter dweller' English name but is so Italian looking...
And they always play him in American history movies and Tom hanks in the davinci code when both actors should have played each other's roles between those movies.
Weird.
I guess National Treasure was basically Da Vinci code anyway?
But also. Imagining Cage as Gump and Cage in Castaway has made me think of how much a better world we could have lived in
So, how were you "WRONG" about swapping speakers? Yer title makes no sense to the content of yer dialog. Some of us actually graduated from the university and can stay focused and on track of the subject matter.
What is ironic about this statement is that you are claiming to be able to stay focused and on track and yet you miss the dialogue altogether in both the description and at 6:00 into the video where I say that I had felt that swapping speakers was a bit of a rabbit hole that folks were chasing a way to fix an amp that maybe just wasn't for them.
Which university was that, James?
Bunch of gibberish
Play-set the tone- play