As a septuagenarian atheist I’ve run into this sentiment before. Beauty is beauty, period. Let them try to wrest my CDs of Dufay, Josquin, and Palestrina out of my cold, dead hands.
I agree. As a Protestant minister, I think great music is for everyone. If it helps bring you to faith, great. I sang in my high school choir the Schubert Mass in G, and most of the choir was Jewish. No one complained. By the way, Catholic author and Boston College prof Peter Kreeft has said “There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. Therefore, there is a God. Either you see this or you don’t.” 😃
Dave, thank you for this thoughtful wise post. An agnostic for many decades I still collect scared music because it is so beautiful. Christmas is a special time for me because of all the live choral concerts performed during the holidays that I can attend. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Hi dave, thanks for the video. Since we have talked about haydn's sacred works, is it possible to do an ideal haydn masses repertoire video? Anyways, thanks again, really interesting video...
Dave thank you, I applaud your undying faith in music. My fellow devotees and I joyfully learn from you daily. Your depth of knowledge, your humor, your lack of pretension make this relationship so rewarding! Carry on…
Sorry for that Dave and I totally reject such bigotry. As an atheist I love 1610 vespers, B Minor mass, Glagiolitic mas and Ives' General Booth, hey? 🥴
Hi Dave, I enjoy watching you very much and I could care less about your faith or lack of, none of my business. You're a really cool guy and we both like my favorite composer Ralph Vaughan Williams particularly Fantasia on Theme by Thomas Tallis. I have listened to that piece 1000 times or more and never get bored or tired of it. It is truly one of the most beautiful pieces of music I have ever heard. It brings tears to my eyes every time I listen to it here on TH-cam. First heard it on a beautiful music station WDBN in Medina, Ohio who used to broadcast the Cleveland Orchestra and I would record them on a reel to reel tape recorder. Louis Lane at that time was the conductor of the orchestra back in the late 60s. Please continue to do what you do and again I find you a really cool guy. Many thanks to you for what you do. John in Ohio
Wow, I am amazed that someone would make that comment to you. I guess I shouldn't be though. I am an atheist and I have never even thought about the religiosity of the music I am listening to. If I enjoy the work, I listen to it. I have news for those zealots out there, all kinds of music is based on stories that may or may not be true. Is "Peter and the Wolf" only for people who actually believe Peter is a real boy? Great talk and I wholeheartedly agree with you.
That sacred music frees from religious appropriation makes it perhaps closer to faith. In grey times, it helped me reconnect with humanity and intelligence, not as just the warmth of the flock. The critic has aroused the jealousy of the inquisitor. But you replied with this lesson in elegance and dignity.
In this context, it seems to be relevant/worth mentioning that the church was sponsoring art, including music, so, in commercial terms, the church was a paying client (Bach had a huge family to feed). The aristocracy later took over this role (Haydn is an example) before artists started operating freelance (I think one of the first composers to go freelance was Mozart). Whenever money is involved, it's hard to determine the depth of religious devotion of artists to the same degree as of the church itself.
I attended a Catholic high school (while still an altar boy in the Episcopal Church.) As a boy I never understood the antisemitism. As it happened Jews were a presence throughout my life going back to elementary school in a working class neighborhood where it seemed you were either Polish Catholic or Southern Baptist. I also worked in book publishing in New York for many years (needless to say a significantly Jewish profession alongside the WASPs.) I'm a late-in-life convert to the Catholic faith. I cannot imagine classical music without the Jewish people. Can you? I'll be damned if I'm going to deprive myself of the beauty and the pleasure and the proselytizing of same. As always, thank you Mr. Hurwitz.
This is very silly. I am an agnostic Jew and I would never dream of telling a Christian, Muslim, etc. they shouldn’t listen to and opine on the works of Ernest Bloch.
Since the dawn of the history of music, sacred texts, whether from the Old or New Testament, have always inspired many, many composers. Is this the scope of the words, the sentences of these texts? Is this the symbolic inspiration of said texts...? Whatever it may be, the music inspired by these texts carries a universal language that is addressed to all. Message of love, hope, fraternity, in short it tells us that the divine does not do evil. I really liked your chat, and to mention for you the organ music, of Bach or Buxtehude for example, inspired by sacred text, which carries a message to those who know how to understand it......
I think Vaughan Williams described himself as a 'cheerful agnostic' -and the man wrote unbelievably good hymn tunes, and a glorious mass, besides spending most of his life fascinated by The Pilgrim's Progress. If it was good enough for him, it's good enough for anyone. It is bonkers to think you have to be a card-carrying member of a religious cult to appreciate and respond to sacred music.
If you can believe in the plot of Verdi's "Rigoletto" long enough to appreciate the opera, you can just as easily believe in hellfire long enough to appreciate his "Requiem". Verdi certainly regarded the former as fiction, and probably regarded the latter as fiction as well, but for artistic purposes he could "believe in" both of them.
Verdi was, I think, writing about the fear of mortality and death shared by all humanity than the last judgment per se. It was his entree into the texts. Certainly, that's what the music is about.
Music is such a curious thing to be territorial about. Music transcends all Dogma and national borders, in my view. I listened to Haydn's "Creation" yesterday because I felt like hearing it. I don't believe in the Judeo/Christian creation myth any more than I believe Atlas holds the world up on his shoulders - but I was in the mood to hear what Haydn makes of "let there be light". And I gotta say - it's an interesting depiction. An atheist doing a sacred piece is no more inauthentic than a Christian musician conducting Bernstein's 'Kaddish' symphony. It's like saying a Jewish actor can't play an Italian character. It's stupid. A dramatic artist can take on other personas - it's what they do - they are an actor. A musician can do much the same thing - because at the end of the day, it's notes on a page. Yes, they convey something. If what they convey is religious rapture, the musician has the imagination to make the violin believe it.
Even if one doesn’t believe in the dogmas, sacred music expresses basic human emotions. We all have to come to terms with life, death, fear, suffering, loss, etc. The Christian story, even if one only thinks of it as a story, speaks to all of those things, esp. our need for hope and our desire for transcendence. Music that expresses and evokes those feelings can have great meaning for anyone. I don’t “believe in” MacBeth but it is an extraordinarily moving story that expresses profound truths about the human experience.
Great video. I am always impressed by the number of religious Jews like myself that I see at liturgical concerts here in Israel. As you say good religious music can move anyone.
I'm a so religious person. That's only that my deities are Josquin, Monteverdi, Purcell, Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Dvorak, Mahler, etc.
I believe in the belief the composer held. Seriously are they saying that the Church is full up and it’s their Christ. I suspect most liturgical music probably “belonged” to a church different to that of the complainant. So I can no longer listen to Fiddler on the Roof?
The dear earth everywhere blossoms in spring and grows green anew! Everywhere and forever blue is the horizon! Forever ... Forever ... Final lines from Das Lied Von Der Erde At age 37 Mahler faced a dilemma: He could become the director of the prestigious Imperial Vienna State Opera only if he abandoned Judaism and converted to Catholicism. Under the anti-Semitic laws, no Jew - no matter how talented or skilled - could occupy such an exalted position. Though nowhere near a devout Jew, he recognized that conversion was his only ticket to the position. He reportedly commented after the service was over, “I’ve just changed my coat.” [Text from the Freedom from Religion Foundation.] Like all true artists, Mahler understood that spirituality is absolutely unbound.
What is important is great music, not the fact it is sacred or profane. A proof of that is that there has been always a great permeability between both. For example, the Agnus Dei of the Coronation Mass of Mozart became the aria "Dove sono" in the Nozze di Figaro etc...
Great video, thank you very much. I greatly enjoy sacred music even though I am a 100% atheist, to the point that I sometimes fear the God’s punishment (to paraphrase Jara Cimrman).
I don't believe in god but I do believe in beautiful music, Penderecki's religious music is some of the most amazing music in the world. That's just one composer, their are plenty of others. Beautifully music is beautiful music no matter what the subject or influences.
I’m an atheist. I do not believe in a personal god. But I have the utmost respect for all world religions. It was our species’ first attempts at cosmology, jurisprudence etc. liturgical texts (I exempt parts of the St James Bible) leave me cold. But factor in a Mozart, Verdi, Berlioz and the text is transformed, at least for me, into a spiritual, quasi-transcendent experience . Music is a marvellous unifier. Clearly this putrid piece of bigoted human excrement didn’t get the memo. I am appalled. Thanks Dave as always for your marvellous videos 👍
Einojuhani Rautavaara used to say that the best works in sacred music were written by atheist/agnostic composers. He felt ”priest-composers” have rarely written good sacred works because they have been too focused on the doctrine and forgotten the music….
On the theme of Haydn and sacred music I recently acquired the complete set of Haydn masses conducted by Richard Hickox. What a glorious set of masterpieces these are. Could this be a candidate for the "Greatest Recordings Ever"? Or is there an even finer set somewhere? These works have completely captivated me. And to prove your point I am an atheist.
In addition to the atheist composers of religious music that Dave mentioned, it has been claimed that Beethoven, Brahms , Schubert and Mozart were atheists.
So not being Jewish, I perhaps shouldn't be able to hear or comment on Handel's oratorios like Israel in Egypt? Or indeed, Handel shouldn't have written it? OK, no Ring cycles for you unless you fervently believe in those Norse gods! Nor Semele, etc. unless you believe in Jupiter, Juno, and their friends. Some of us worship music itself.
If a Jew cannot speak about the seven words, why was it a Jew who spoke them the first time? Jesus spoke on behalf of all innocent victims of all time, especially victims of antisemitism. PS -- Theology resides in the left brain, while music inhabits the right brain. So everyone of any belief or even none at all should be able to meet on common ground in music.
As a septuagenarian atheist I’ve run into this sentiment before. Beauty is beauty, period. Let them try to wrest my CDs of Dufay, Josquin, and Palestrina out of my cold, dead hands.
I agree. As a Protestant minister, I think great music is for everyone. If it helps bring you to faith, great. I sang in my high school choir the Schubert Mass in G, and most of the choir was Jewish. No one complained. By the way, Catholic author and Boston College prof Peter Kreeft has said “There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. Therefore, there is a God. Either you see this or you don’t.” 😃
Dave, thank you for this thoughtful wise post. An agnostic for many decades I still collect scared music because it is so beautiful. Christmas is a special time for me because of all the live choral concerts performed during the holidays that I can attend. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Bravo! From a Portuguese atheist deeply moved by Josquin's masses and dozens of other sublime musical treasures.
Hi dave, thanks for the video. Since we have talked about haydn's sacred works, is it possible to do an ideal haydn masses repertoire video? Anyways, thanks again, really interesting video...
Dave thank you, I applaud your undying faith in music. My fellow devotees and I joyfully learn from you daily. Your depth of knowledge, your humor, your lack of pretension make this relationship so rewarding! Carry on…
I declare that the bigot that exposed themselves with that hideous comment is now banned from listening to Bach’s “coffee cantata”.
Sorry for that Dave and I totally reject such bigotry. As an atheist I love 1610 vespers, B Minor mass, Glagiolitic mas and Ives' General Booth, hey? 🥴
As a lifelong musician and atheist I have always taken the simple view that the music is greater than the religion.
Hi Dave, I enjoy watching you very much and I could care less about your faith or lack of, none of my business. You're a really cool guy and we both like my favorite composer Ralph Vaughan Williams particularly Fantasia on Theme by Thomas Tallis. I have listened to that piece 1000 times or more and never get bored or tired of it. It is truly one of the most beautiful pieces of music I have ever heard. It brings tears to my eyes every time I listen to it here on TH-cam. First heard it on a beautiful music station WDBN in Medina, Ohio who used to broadcast the Cleveland Orchestra and I would record them on a reel to reel tape recorder. Louis Lane at that time was the conductor of the orchestra back in the late 60s.
Please continue to do what you do and again I find you a really cool guy.
Many thanks to you for what you do.
John in Ohio
Wow, I am amazed that someone would make that comment to you. I guess I shouldn't be though. I am an atheist and I have never even thought about the religiosity of the music I am listening to. If I enjoy the work, I listen to it. I have news for those zealots out there, all kinds of music is based on stories that may or may not be true. Is "Peter and the Wolf" only for people who actually believe Peter is a real boy? Great talk and I wholeheartedly agree with you.
That sacred music frees from religious appropriation makes it perhaps closer to faith. In grey times, it helped me reconnect with humanity and intelligence, not as just the warmth of the flock. The critic has aroused the jealousy of the inquisitor. But you replied with this lesson in elegance and dignity.
In this context, it seems to be relevant/worth mentioning that the church was sponsoring art, including music, so, in commercial terms, the church was a paying client (Bach had a huge family to feed). The aristocracy later took over this role (Haydn is an example) before artists started operating freelance (I think one of the first composers to go freelance was Mozart).
Whenever money is involved, it's hard to determine the depth of religious devotion of artists to the same degree as of the church itself.
“Its [sic] are [sic] Saver [sic], you”. God bless Haydn, Dave, and Thanksgiving!
I attended a Catholic high school (while still an altar boy in the Episcopal Church.) As a boy I never understood the antisemitism. As it happened Jews were a presence throughout my life going back to elementary school in a working class neighborhood where it seemed you were either Polish Catholic or Southern Baptist. I also worked in book publishing in New York for many years (needless to say a significantly Jewish profession alongside the WASPs.) I'm a late-in-life convert to the Catholic faith. I cannot imagine classical music without the Jewish people. Can you? I'll be damned if I'm going to deprive myself of the beauty and the pleasure and the proselytizing of same. As always, thank you Mr. Hurwitz.
This is very silly. I am an agnostic Jew and I would never dream of telling a Christian, Muslim, etc. they shouldn’t listen to and opine on the works of Ernest Bloch.
Bingo!! And we need to hear his music more than we do.
Well done, glad you addressed this topic. My ultimate spiritual music experience is the slow movement of Sibelius 4, so there you go.
I'm agnostic, Faure's Requiem soothes my soul.
Marvelous point of view. So true. Thank you!
Since the dawn of the history of music, sacred texts, whether from the Old or New Testament, have always inspired many, many composers. Is this the scope of the words, the sentences of these texts? Is this the symbolic inspiration of said texts...? Whatever it may be, the music inspired by these texts carries a universal language that is addressed to all. Message of love, hope, fraternity, in short it tells us that the divine does not do evil. I really liked your chat, and to mention for you the organ music, of Bach or Buxtehude for example, inspired by sacred text, which carries a message to those who know how to understand it......
I think Vaughan Williams described himself as a 'cheerful agnostic' -and the man wrote unbelievably good hymn tunes, and a glorious mass, besides spending most of his life fascinated by The Pilgrim's Progress. If it was good enough for him, it's good enough for anyone. It is bonkers to think you have to be a card-carrying member of a religious cult to appreciate and respond to sacred music.
If you can believe in the plot of Verdi's "Rigoletto" long enough to appreciate the opera, you can just as easily believe in hellfire long enough to appreciate his "Requiem". Verdi certainly regarded the former as fiction, and probably regarded the latter as fiction as well, but for artistic purposes he could "believe in" both of them.
Verdi was, I think, writing about the fear of mortality and death shared by all humanity than the last judgment per se. It was his entree into the texts. Certainly, that's what the music is about.
Music is such a curious thing to be territorial about. Music transcends all Dogma and national borders, in my view. I listened to Haydn's "Creation" yesterday because I felt like hearing it. I don't believe in the Judeo/Christian creation myth any more than I believe Atlas holds the world up on his shoulders - but I was in the mood to hear what Haydn makes of "let there be light". And I gotta say - it's an interesting depiction. An atheist doing a sacred piece is no more inauthentic than a Christian musician conducting Bernstein's 'Kaddish' symphony. It's like saying a Jewish actor can't play an Italian character. It's stupid. A dramatic artist can take on other personas - it's what they do - they are an actor. A musician can do much the same thing - because at the end of the day, it's notes on a page. Yes, they convey something. If what they convey is religious rapture, the musician has the imagination to make the violin believe it.
Terrific talk. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
Even if one doesn’t believe in the dogmas, sacred music expresses basic human emotions. We all have to come to terms with life, death, fear, suffering, loss, etc. The Christian story, even if one only thinks of it as a story, speaks to all of those things, esp. our need for hope and our desire for transcendence. Music that expresses and evokes those feelings can have great meaning for anyone.
I don’t “believe in” MacBeth but it is an extraordinarily moving story that expresses profound truths about the human experience.
Great video. I am always impressed by the number of religious Jews like myself that I see at liturgical concerts here in Israel. As you say good religious music can move anyone.
One of my most memorable sacred music concerts was the Berlioz Requiem with the Jerusalem Symphony under Gary Bertini. The hall was packed.
I'm a so religious person. That's only that my deities are Josquin, Monteverdi, Purcell, Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Dvorak, Mahler, etc.
I believe in the belief the composer held.
Seriously are they saying that the Church is full up and it’s their Christ. I suspect most liturgical music probably “belonged” to a church different to that of the complainant.
So I can no longer listen to Fiddler on the Roof?
The dear earth everywhere
blossoms in spring and grows green anew!
Everywhere and forever blue is the horizon!
Forever ... Forever ...
Final lines from Das Lied Von Der Erde
At age 37 Mahler faced a dilemma: He could become the director of the prestigious Imperial Vienna State Opera only if he abandoned Judaism and converted to Catholicism. Under the anti-Semitic laws, no Jew - no matter how talented or skilled - could occupy such an exalted position. Though nowhere near a devout Jew, he recognized that conversion was his only ticket to the position. He reportedly commented after the service was over, “I’ve just changed my coat.” [Text from the Freedom from Religion Foundation.]
Like all true artists, Mahler understood that spirituality is absolutely unbound.
As a Christian I could care less about the words. I don’t bother ever looking up lyrics for sacred music. I just enjoy the music
What is important is great music, not the fact it is sacred or profane. A proof of that is that there has been always a great permeability between both. For example, the Agnus Dei of the Coronation Mass of Mozart became the aria "Dove sono" in the Nozze di Figaro etc...
All creative work is of a spectral nature: once made, it's out there for all to encounter anywhich way however and even regardless of its creator
Great video, thank you very much. I greatly enjoy sacred music even though I am a 100% atheist, to the point that I sometimes fear the God’s punishment (to paraphrase Jara Cimrman).
I don't believe in god but I do believe in beautiful music, Penderecki's religious music is some of the most amazing music in the world. That's just one composer, their are plenty of others. Beautifully music is beautiful music no matter what the subject or influences.
I’m an atheist. I do not believe in a personal god. But I have the utmost respect for all world religions. It was our species’ first attempts at cosmology, jurisprudence etc. liturgical texts (I exempt parts of the St James Bible) leave me cold. But factor in a Mozart, Verdi, Berlioz and the text is transformed, at least for me, into a spiritual, quasi-transcendent experience . Music is a marvellous unifier. Clearly this putrid piece of bigoted human excrement didn’t get the memo. I am appalled. Thanks Dave as always for your marvellous videos 👍
Einojuhani Rautavaara used to say that the best works in sacred music were written by atheist/agnostic composers. He felt ”priest-composers” have rarely written good sacred works because they have been too focused on the doctrine and forgotten the music….
You mean Liszt of course... 😉
On the theme of Haydn and sacred music I recently acquired the complete set of Haydn masses conducted by Richard Hickox. What a glorious set of masterpieces these are. Could this be a candidate for the "Greatest Recordings Ever"? Or is there an even finer set somewhere? These works have completely captivated me. And to prove your point I am an atheist.
Yes, there are better versions.
5 of the masses conducted by Marriner with Staatskapelle Dresden and fabulous soloists is going to have to qualify as the greatest recording everrr!
Music is universal. It can move anyone. I profoundly regret the comment you point out was made; it is uncharitable and (paradoxically) unchristian.
It is indeed distressing that people are so bold in their antisemitism these days. We've already seen where this can go.
In addition to the atheist composers of religious music that Dave mentioned, it has been claimed that Beethoven, Brahms , Schubert and Mozart were atheists.
I'm religiously musicophilic.
Can I get an “Amen”?
So not being Jewish, I perhaps shouldn't be able to hear or comment on Handel's oratorios like Israel in Egypt? Or indeed, Handel shouldn't have written it?
OK, no Ring cycles for you unless you fervently believe in those Norse gods! Nor Semele, etc. unless you believe in Jupiter, Juno, and their friends.
Some of us worship music itself.
Bravo!
Then I shouldn't listen to Janacek's Cunning Little Vixen, since I don't believe in talking animals.
I already know the answers to this one.
If a Jew cannot speak about the seven words, why was it a Jew who spoke them the first time? Jesus spoke on behalf of all innocent victims of all time, especially victims of antisemitism. PS -- Theology resides in the left brain, while music inhabits the right brain. So everyone of any belief or even none at all should be able to meet on common ground in music.