Sensei Yusuke I would say Tang Soo Do and Shotokan Karate, would be a very interesting comparison, as they are very similar. Tang Soo Do, is often referred to as 'Korean Karate'.
Part of the reason that what you saw looks different from modern Savate is because Savate went through a significant transition around the time that video was filmed. The older man in that video is one of the Charlemont's, a famous family of Savateurs. Their school represented a more "academic" and "athletic" style of Savate that focused on higher kicks, and more exaggerated movements. Many of their students were well to do and their competitions were geared toward graceful displays of the art more than brutal fighting. They still used the older method of Savate punching which was developed independent of English boxing. Around the time of that video a Savateur named Julien Leclerc was challenging the methods of the Charlemonts with his own style of Savate. His style focused on low to mid line kicks with greater emphasis on non telegraphed movement and power. Leclerc also replaced the old Savate style punching with the punching method of English boxing. Leclerc placed a great deal of emphasis on making Savate a fighting art again by taking it back to it's roots before it was an accepted past time of gentlemen. He spent a great deal of time analyzing style vs style matches where Savate fighters had lost or struggled and sought to apply the lessons learned toward bettering the art. Modern Savate borrows much from both Charlemont and Leclerc schools of Savate.
The first text mean : Here is classical blows demonstrate in slow motion by teacher Charlemont and his students Second text : Low kick and middle kick Third text : Reverse jump kick Fourth : A pretty high kick
As for the stepping motion they do : That is called "appel du pied", "foot calling". It is a willful telegraphing, you can use it to feint for example. And it is used as well for the "chassé-croisé", a "crossed kekomi". Basically a yoko geri kekomi but with more momentum for when the opponent is too far away to reach just by pushing from the rear leg. It is a jump kick. The thing you call an ashi-barai isn't a barai motion, it's rather closer to a kin geri straight kick, but to the shin or knee, it is called "coup de pied bas", "low kick" (not the one in kick boxing though). It is blocked by raising the sole of the shoe. As for the snapping motions from the knee, kicks in Savate traditionally rely on the shoe as a weapon for power rather on the strength of the fighter striking with force. So one very important principle of action is the "armé", which is a chambering of the kick to give it speed rather than strength. (The shoes French people wore during the creation of Savate usually were made with hard leather soles and a wooden heel, so you can use it as a weapon to ruin your opponent's try at boxing traditionally (mainly by attacking the shin and knee with your feet). The people showed in the video are Charles Charlemont, the son of Joseph Charlemont, one of the "founding fathers" of modern Savate, and two of his pupils of the time (1924). So he for one used to be one of the top athletes in the discipline in his youth. I don't know for the man and woman we see alongside him in the video. The origins of Savate are a bit older than that, starting in the early 1800's in the streets of Paris or Marseille with the way gang members and thugs used to street fight, until the first known figure to theorize what they did in a scientific manner (and offer it to the bourgeoisie as a school of self defence) appeared, called Michel Casseux, nicknamed Pisseux. He was the first to produce written rules for Savate, and to forbid some techniques as he wanted to promote sportsmanship and avoid injuries in the Salle d'Armes (training room). Hope this helps !
It's interesting that you comment on the sway present in Savate, because one of the possible origins is as a Sailor's combat technique - keeping loose and able to sway would be vital when fighting on a ship.
Yes, Savate was started by French sailors. It was easier to strike with your legs while holding on to something with your hands when the ship is rocking back and forth.
Oss! Hi! I have been a shotokan karateka since I was 6, and now I am 44 years old, and still practicing shotokan. Since 5 years ago though, I have been learning others too, like taekwondo, bjj, and kick boxing. I realized that karate techniques are not stationary. Karate evolves with time. We added judo techniques, as well as new kicks techniques. And nothing to be ashamed! We should be proud. What people are calling "MMA" right now, actually has the same spirit with karate. We learn, we practice to do the techniques we know to perfection, we add new techniques/learn new techniques from other arts, we ditch the techniques that we think will not work. Try to find out, which year this clip was filmed. Try to find video clips and photos from the similar years. You will find that this savate is closer to modern kumite tournament than the karate from that era. So, I think it is very possibe what Jesse sensei said is true. We dont find keage geri, kekomi geri, mawashi geri in old katas. So it is obvious we got those frome somewhere else and that is okay. Moreover, it is our duty as current generation karatekas to improve and continue evolving our karate according to the needs today.
It is been a well known fact that there is no written records about high kicks in asian martial art prior to ww1. If you think logically French had good understanding of high kicks from ballet and can-can , nobody else had that base.
@@muhammadibnmusaal-chorezmi7240 That might be true for Japanese martial arts, but several Northern Chinese kung fu styles and Korean Taekkyoen had high kick techniques.
@@danielkim1836 If you know of any original 19th century painting , photo, movie, referral in a book please provide it. Modern historians could not find any
looked very similar to me. if you search for minor differences, you will always find some like the fist is tilted 3 degree more than the other style. it is also wrong to compare with modern karate because modern karate has also changed drastically since the 60s or 70s and instead of rooting to the floor, modern karateka floats and hops around.
I believe Savate was developed by French seaman in the days of sail. The movement of the kicks is designed with the idea that the upper body would be supported by the ubiquitous railing and ropes found on a ships deck.
The tai sabaki allows more minimal uke waza. The jumping comes from the gathering step then lunge also it takes into account the grip, friction, and traction of the sole of a boot since if your sole doesn't slide you will tear up your ankles and knees due to torsion. The movements have Ballet and Fencing theory and mechanics applied to kickboxing in boots. Besides normal Boxing footwork there is also Fencing footwork of lunge, passing step, flechette, and flunge. They also have a lead thrust where the arm goes straight first before the lunge gives it impluse momentum, which isn't not used in modern boxe français or kickboxing.
You may or may not know this, but Bruce Lee adopted the lead thrust performed in the manner you described. He describes it's application in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.
I can see Jesse's connection but there are a lot of differences as well. I think that karate took the concepts of savate and adapted them to make karate stronger.
The movements are bigger in the video, I believe, just for demonstration purposes, so we can see the details of the technique more clearly. That's why they jump so high. It's the same reason Chinese and Indian martial arts forms as well as Silat jurus are exaggerated. I've been told Kata are the same.
0:50 This is a demonstration of savate's most peculiar techniques in slow motion by master Charlemont and his student 1:47 Low to middle round kick to the side 2:50 jumping hook kick 5:12 a sweet high kick form
Doing some reading up on savate, I’ve found the back hand when I trails behind on a kick is because it was used to fight on ships by the sailors so is representing them holding something as they’re kicking on deck of a moving boat
You meant ballet dancing from Japan and the western only copied a part of culture from them. C'mon man. Your thought French never use melee combat when they are ran out of ammo? And in western medieval they all used guns ? if you take a look ballet dancer do "high kick" higher than teakwondo and karate. If you thinking in logical then French put some strength in their ballet art can fight and keep Balancing in the boat . i think this guy's comment are reasonable. i love japan and karate but need more intel. best regard !
I'm speaking french if you need help with translations. This footage from 1896 shows similar technique as karate. th-cam.com/video/uedqehuzYdA/w-d-xo.html I believe the kicking evolved and eventually people realised that using the front foot for throwing a kick was not as effective because you are basically telling the opponent you are about to kick. In recent footage this technique has basically dissapeared. Also, even though it was a "street fighting" self-defense martial arts, you have to remember that as a sport, it was supposed to be a replacement for fencing and the goal was not to be the most efficient, but the goal was to hit (touch) the opponent. As a kid I saw karate/kung fu as exotic but the more you learn, the more you realise every martial art around the world was influenced by many others, even when communication and travel was challenging. That's what impresses me the most. I believe MMA is the lastest of the "evolution" of mixing martials arts. It was bound to happen eventually :)
Putting the opposite arm behind you when kicking actually increases the range by a few inches. It's a world of difference when kicking with footwear and using the tip of your foot. What's being demonstrated is probably the ideal when hitting at the absolute maximum distance. Like the tip of the fencing sword.
Actually, that kamae hand position was common back then. I do Wado Ryu and all of our kihon kumite, ippon kumite sets have similar guard. Shoulders are much more square not sideways. Same guard is used by Choki Motobu and some top Japanese coaches. To see how it is used in action, you may check Seiji Nishimura's Kumite instructional videos on TH-cam. He doesn't tell his students to use that stance for kumite but he himself operates from that guard.
It was developed as a complete system of defense. It started with sailors fighting on ships (origins chauson or shoe) later Cane fighting and street applications were added. There are three aspects that have sort of diverged. I think I've got it right, but it might be best to ask someone who understands all the branches, not just a savate boxer, or a cane fighter.
karaté Stances and movement came from Kendo and Iado (japanese swordmanship) since Gigo Funakoshi took lessons from Hakuda nakayama . In a very old footage of funakoshi around the 20’s 30’s we can see Gichin using many types of kicks. Many karate masters apart from shotokan like gochen yamaguchi, mas oyama , Nakamura or others shorin ryu masters have performed variety of kicks without gigo’s funakoshi tutelage or influence. And the real father of sport karate is masatoshi nakayama who had north chinese kung-fu influence who made his karate more spectacular. Last point: jesse didnt bring any sources to read or watch to prove his point.
@@yossefgabay5633 There was roundhouse kick but no hook kick and spinning kick in the video. The roundhouse kick was done with ball of foot. But typical Karate roundhouse kick is done with top of foot like TKD.
@@leavesofgarden3932 back in the days in old Okinawa tradition they were hitting with the toes sharp as knives (tsumasaki) and the sword side of the foot (sokuto) then in the 30´s they were hitting with the ball of the foot (chusoku)and sport kumite today with top of the foot (heisoku) and shin in full contact forms.
And when everything is stadardized enough, some dude with a move that nobody practices surprises averyone and gets some cred, then everyone starts doing it or working up a counter or two xD Unending cycle
At the time of this video many of the techniques in Savate were to be utilized like fencing. That is to say, hit without getting hit much like what you see in point Karate: To hit is to win. This began to change in the latter half of the century, particularly as kickboxing hit the global stage. By the 1980's Savate fully incorporated western boxing and changed it's mentality from foot fencing to "Boxe Française". To me it was at its technical peak from the 80's to the early 2000's. Edit: Just watched Jesse's video and I'm saying basically the exact same thing.
I think what jesse said is that to develop the rules of kumite yashitaka sensei got inspired by savate.. Anyway i see Karate as a kind of "classical mma", because it was actually build from a mix of diferent old martial arts: okinawan, chinese, japanese and in the modern days the ocidental influences like this savate stuffs.
3:55 Indeed savate kicks comes from the knee wether it is the front kicks or the roundhouses the power comes from the knee. This way of kicking is less powerfull but allows the savateur to be more mobile during and after the kicks.
Actually that depends on the type of kick.Rear leg kicks do use the weight of the body and both front and rear leg also includes hip useage.Also Joseph Claremont's Savate kicks where very flicky flicky, where as other instructors where more like what I described
@@josephperkins4080 Well yes the hip is bound to be involved it just happens that savate puts the emphasis on the extention of the knee rather than than the hip. This is reflected in the rules of savate were kicks have to be chambered, even the crescent kicks.
The technique that you are calling Ashi Barai is actually not a sweep in Savate it is called Coup de Pied Bas (literally low foot strike) - it is a kick, often used to block the opponent’s forward movement.
@@KarateDojowaKu It can be used as a feint, a disrupting attack or a setup attack. But honestly, it is very rarely used in modern full contact savate. It is still teached as a "typical technic" which can be used as a surprising technic in competitions were you just aim to touch rather than hit to gain points.
Greetings from Helsinki, Finland. This historical approach to karate - from the European (French) point of view - through savate is very interesting. I have been training savate for decades (yes, I'm a middle aged man) and only recently has this insight been brought up. Personally, I don't see the issue significant, i.e. it does not increase my appreciation of savate or decreace my respect of karate (I trained wado ryu as an teenager). However, one should acknowledge the history in order to look forward. Thank you for sharing this video. Sore wa arigataidesu!
Charles Charlemont actually was indeed a top Savateur. One of the reasons his Savate stands out was because his Savate techniques were based off the same principles as fencing-, with an emphasis on precision rather than strength--hence his tendency for light, quick strikes.
Also, the boots. You don't need widely telegraphed ultra powerful kicks to knock out a person where you can do a precise, chambered kick in a hardtop boot to the liver
That front lunge step is taken from sword fighting they just adapted it to the kicks.....works pretty well for gaining distance because the body will naturally want to spring up.
I can offer you a breakdown of modern Savate mechanics. This old video isn't representative, I'm sure you realise. Would you like to play Savate and Karate comparison with some better footage?
An interesting video. I'd have liked you to include some Karate video in the same time period as the Savate video to analyze, then perhaps show modern vs modern.
As to the roundhouse kick, there is no single genuine technical reference to the Chinese martial arts (including the northern kung fu reputed to have some high kicks in their arsenal) which could have passed down to the Japanese Karate master. Savate seems to be the only link that could explain the sudden appearance of high kicks in the modern Karate. Since the original Savate also incorporated the gymnastic prevalent in the Europe at that time, it must have influenced the modern Karate warm up and conditioning, stretching exercise routines as well. People often say Bruce Lee was innovative in his effort to incorporate European Fencing to his Jeekundo. Now, we know that it was actually French who were far ahead of Bruce Lee and actually materialized this kind of concept more concretely centuries ago. The modern Karate masters should be praised for their openness to learn new things and developing completely new sets of kick techniques in order to improve their own styles.
I've seen crescent kicks at head level in old kung fu footage tho. There's also a video attributed to 1924 that shows funakoshi and his students doing a variety of high and jumping kicks. There's even a front kick in a kata that is a little above belt level.
The " fancy" kicks start coming around the 15 min mark but I encourage anyone to go through the whole video as there's kicking above the belt throughout here and there! th-cam.com/video/enttNLnjSXs/w-d-xo.html
I'd love to see a video comparing footage of karate from that time with the savate footage you found on savate and then compare the modern forms of the 2 sports ^^
Hi there. I´ve got a question for you: What do you think about the fact that Japanese martial arts and Chinese martial arts often compete each other? I mean over the years I´ve often encountered such discussions and I also came to realize that especially ordinary people tend to get highly influenced by martial arts movies whose purpose is actually just entertainment. Nevertheless people often come up with the fact that Chinese often produce anti-Japanese martial arts movies on a regular basis like "Ip Man 1" or "Fist of Fury" where Chinese seem to express their hate towards Japanese and Japanese martial arts by making Japanese martial arts look bad on purpose! What do you think of that? I personally think it´s quite annoying and provocative since Japanese martial arts are good after all and absolutely not necessarily inferior to Chinese martial arts like the Chinese always want to indicate in their films!
Haha I think that's only in the context of movies, just like the Hollywood movies always have the Russians as the enemy. I believe the martial arts themselves look up to each other
Japan did a lot of *really* nasty things to the Chinese and South East Asians during WWII, so it's kind of natural that they always portray them as their enemies (especially when it's set in a historical context, which would then be accurate). Likewise in the early 20th century China was messed up with by the Europeans, so movies set in those times would portray Westerners as their enemy, which is also kinda historically correct
I suppose Chinese people will probably never get over the fact that Japan invaded them in World War 2. Even producing Chinese-hate movies will never solve that.
@@KarateDojowaKu Yes, modern day Boxe Française has little to nothing to do with traditional savate. Then again, traditional Shotokan karate (I can't speak about other styles, I know too little) doesn't exactly look like competition kumite karate either ;) You can't expect something developed as a self-defence technique with violence in mind to evolve the same way as a toned down, tamed version intended for sports, even fighting sports. It will go two different ways every time.
Great to see your technical aproach! Thanks!This person actually is the "father" of modern French Boxing Savate (Charles Charlemont). I've had the same subject on my "channel to come in January 2021" but I had launch the video 2h after Jesse to avoid being called a copy cat from the begining :D Keep your videos coming ;) thanks alot, Renato
@@KarateDojowaKu Thank you! I will probably explore more about Savate itself in the future once I have alot of info in French I'd like to share with English-speaking audience.
Karate was imported to Brazil around the same time Judo was. So it's safe to say that Karate may have influenced the kicks in Capoeira. As a Capoeira practitioner myself I don't rule it out.
Savate was using shoes, while karate is bare footed, so they had to make changes to adapt to the bare feet (else there would be too much pain in the feet) when taking over from Savate.
I commented on Jesse's video as well, I'll copy my comment below Interesting connection! I wouldn't be at all surprised that European style military drills were influential in the formation of modern Karate training. However, the mechanics of Savate kicks are pretty different than Karate kicks and there's very few/any jumping kicks in Savate. In addition, the focal point of the Savate kick tends to be related to the toe of the shoe vs the focal points of Karate kicks. Given the time frame (late 19th early 20th century), and the Japanese occupation of Korea during this time (starting with the Japan-Korea treaty of 1876 and then the Annexation in 1910), I would wager that the new kicks coming into Karate were more likely imported from neighboring Korea. There is ample cross pollination between the martial arts from both countries. For example, modern Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do pumsae are borrowed from Karate, and modern Korean sword fighting (Kumdo) is an imported version of Kendo. There's also likely quite a bit of cross breeding between Judo, Aikido, Ssireum, Sumo, and Hapkido, and all of the kicks and jumping kicks mentioned in your video, and the biomechanics of how they are executed are present in Korean art of Taekkyeon. Modern sports Tae Kwon Do and Karate matches look more like a Taekkyeon match than a Savate match. Testing this, slightly further out, Northern Chinese arts also feature a great number of similar kicks (jumping kicks, high roundhouse and side kicks, various spinning kicks), but are traditionally executed with different mechanics than the Korean kicks and lack staples like hook and spinning back/side kicks. The Japanese would have likely encountered these during the various invasions of Manchuria in either 1894 or 1931, but don't seem to have imported elements of those styles. Some examples: - Karate vs Savate - th-cam.com/video/m3I6oF2LUbI/w-d-xo.html - Tang Soo Do Pumsae vs. Shotokan forms - th-cam.com/video/-uZgfkC9A0g/w-d-xo.html - Taekkyeon - th-cam.com/video/dYTkX8Va1FU/w-d-xo.html - Championship Savate Match - th-cam.com/video/XH20I5GhEH0/w-d-xo.html
From fench to english it basically says: "Savate/ Charles Clarmont. Here in slow motion are some classic moves demonstrated by professor Clarmont". So...part of my family was Canadian french and I first learned about Savate as a child, even cross training a bit when I started studying Karate. Savate is rumored to have been brought back to french provinces, from sailors trading with other countries specifically China and Thailand. Only after swords were banned in France or at least citys like Paris, was Savate popularized and taught by out of work fencing instructors, (I think Jesse said that too). These instructors added European boxing and applied these kicking martial arts techniques to modified fencing drills. Thats why in Savate they often over extend, leaping and lunging as you would in fencing, to score a point. Back then gymnastics and ballet dance studios were popular places to exercise and often trained along side fencing and so with their increased flexibility, they were able to use more dynamic kicks to the face and upper torso. Jesse is correct, in the way that it became 1 and 3 step sparring and point fighting sport karate. Which ultimately influenced karate do and karate jutsu forever or at least how we learned and practice kumite. Everything influences everything, I suppose. I like to believe of Karate as a more minimalist mastery of mind, body strengthening and movement which can be used for self preservation. IMO Savate is athletic sport of foot fencing and sort of entertainment kickboxing at best. Thanks for posting!
Savate has different versions that are practiced 1 sport form la box francaise 2 savate 3 savate defensive 4 its original form which was originally designed to be able to fight aboard navy and merchant ships while in the ocean and for street fighting Was not properly standardized until 1830s after which English boxing was integrated into the If one goes into early history of art being practiced by sailors then awkward foot positioning might make sense along with the weight and fit of shoes and boots that they wore would affect balance and speed Try karate with heavy electrical work boots and practice on a sailboat with a slippery wooden deck and your shoes and boots have a smooth sole and heel and the boat is in 10 ft sea then you had to kick while staying out of range of a sword knife or hatchet wielding opponent which might explain the awkward body positioning and lack of techniques within clinching range Good video but if you go deep enough into history of savate its unfamiliar movement and positions could be explained
How can you explain that the Karate kicks look just like the Kung Fu kicks that Karate had so recently decended from? Shorin ryo or "Shaolin" school, Goju Ryu had white crane added to it from it's Soke Chojun Miyagi. Shorei ryu that Miyagi studied came from the Shoreiji Temple in southern China. Yet we are asked to believe the kicks came from Savat in France not the Kung Fu it was so closely related to? Even though many the founders of those styles studied Kung Fu in China, but the kicks supposedly came from France?? I don't buy it.
I agree, all the kicks they say came from France are in many forms of traditional Chinese martial arts. I highly doubt the kicks came from some french kickboxing style
I studied Shaolin Kung Fu and JKD a long time ago. About 5 years ago, I studied Savate, and now I practice my own version Savat. It is probably likely that the Chinese "invented" these kicks before the French. Part of their ancient training is Clearing the Chess Board, visualizing, then practicing certain techniques. Savate was supposedly started by Navy Soldiers who would hold onto part of the ship while kicking, hence their love for high kicks. It is probably more difficult to clear the chessboard while on a crowded ship full of drunk soldiers. As opposed to a Chinaman meditating in the woods..
The rule set for competition can be a factor on how techniques are done. The ura mawashi geri in karate and Taekwondo are done differently. In Taekwondo the kick extended past the head more because it allowed for knockouts. I believe base on the rule is how people practice techniques.
Noticed comments about developed from fencing, was meant to be developed from sailors on ships , hence the sway and holding onto netting led to different styles of kicks and punches . The stamp of front foot may have been due to steading before launched attack to have a firm base before you attacked to get balance and power using motion of ship. Fencing style added later when on land to compensate for some of attacks not working fully in land situation. The liver kick for example perfect from ship motion/ kinetics and incorporated successfully on land. Very effective attack as completely disables opponent as toxins hit brain making collapse and inability to defend . Surprised no mention of this , also lost ability to attack head in modern version as counted to dangerous. Pity
techniques de savate 0.53 chassé croisé sauté bas ( cross-jumped side-kick low) by attacker as you can see, Pr Charlemont, dodges with a forward leap, and in right guard (fencing tradition) simply blocks with his front fist. 1.50 coup de pied bas , et coup de pied fouetté médian ( de flanc ) low kick , then round- kick ( on torso ) Pr Charlemont, block with the glove 3.08, Fist warm-up, fists are always used to launch foot techniques ( 3.15 coup de pied bas (low kick), 3.20 fouetté médian (round-kick on torso) 3.30 fouetté figure ( round-kick on head ) 3.34 fouetté médian ( round kick on torso) 3.36 chassé-croisé sauté médian (cross-jumped side -kick on torso) 3.40 revers figure (reverse-kick on head) and fouetté figure (round-kick on head ) this combination is called : "le giflé" in french (the slap) many blows with fist and "coup de pied bas " 4.26 fouetté médian (round kick on torso) with many " blocages " bonjour de France
The modern day savate has two types of competition, one is very similar to kumite and the other to kickboxing. I do think this explained where the kicks came from ( except mae geri and yoko geri, those are found in the katas).
Ok so the history of savate comes from Paris Street fighting where they combined Queensbury ruled boxing with French foot fighting. They also used their shoes as weapons by hardening the toe, even using steel toe boots, which is why savate kick hit with the toe instead of the back of the foot. Hope this helps.
Mawashi geri (roundhouse kick) and foutté (whip kick) difference: mawashi geri uses the instep more while foutté uses the point of the toe/shoe (even the street version of mawashi geri the toe of the shoe is effective similar to the savate version).
The savate is tied to sword thrusting and since French, probably also ballet or dance. Karate kicks generally are part of a systematic attack and is more stable since stance is very important and the side kick uses the outside of the foot. But you can see the similarities in the basics.
Really interesting that the old school way of defending in savate looks like a mix of old school English boxing and wingchun with like A LOT of wingchung influence
It would be interesting to compare this history to taekwondo. So far, I can't find any references to savate in histories of taekwondo, but its pretty obvious we use the same basic kicking techniques. While it's possible TKD picked it all up from Karate during the occupation, you would think the same traders who introduced savate to Japan would have visited Korea as well.
The main difference between modern kick boxing and modern savate is in the rule set. First, in savate, you can't hit with the leg, only with the foot. This means that you need to manage different distances between punches and kicks (this would be considered to be an out of legal range kick). This is the reason why modern savate keeps a feincing like feeling. Moreover, you can't block with your leg either so you need to emphasis mobility to avoid low kicks. Then, in savate, you wear shoes, so hitting with the foot and even with the toes makes sense and can be very painful even with much less power than in kickboxing. You can even block some of the low kicks with the foot plant by kicking the opponent incoming chin or pushing on his thigh (and this can cause a hell of a pain!).
I’d like to add to your comment that in Karate we do Tobikomi by pushing off with the back leg. I learned it some decades ago, but to PULL with the front foot rather than push with the back foot. I think pulling makes the move a little more subtle without “telegraphing” by pushing off with the back foot. Anyway, that’s how I’ve done it for many years successfully. I do it with front kick, side thrust kick, front punch, etc.. One of my old teachers was devastating doing Tobikomi. He would be in his opponent’s Ma before the opponent could react. He’d get them thinking about his side thrust kick and then knock them out with his backhand.
Honestly, I see more similarity between modern point kumite and traditional savate than I do modern point kumite and traditional Okinawan karate. Okinawan karate, from what I've heard, was traditionally supposed to be very close and dirty. Throws, trips, eye gouges, short punches, knees, short fast kicks to the legs and groin, elbows, forearms, etc. It seems like traditional Karate fought from punch range to clinch range. Yes, there are some differences for sure, but modern point kumite looks like someone took straight up Savate and added in Karate aesthetics and added in kiba dachi and zenkutsu dachi. Probably some movements from Karate. And this is JUST for point kumite. I'm not saying Savate had any influence on bunkai or kihon or kata.
That's not an Ashi Barai that's a Chasse Bas Oblique kick which I covered and proper counters this week in my Ramsey Dewey Oblique kick defense Rebuttal video
@@KarateDojowaKu its not a ashi barai nor a sweep. Its a low kick using the inner edge of the "boot" to attack the shin bone. (Savate uses shoes/boots for attacks hence why the kicks are not like karate, they use flicking kicks because they use the hard part of the boots for damage)
Origin of Karate kick Traditional Karate had front kick, side kick and crescent kick. These kicks appear in traditional kata. It is said Karate came from Kungfu. But traditional Kungfu didn’t have side kick. It is difficult to say front kick and crescent kick came from Kugnfu because they are basic kick any human can try easily from long time ago. Modern Karate uses diverse kicks. For example, spinning back kick, spinning hook kick, hook kick, flying side kick, flying roundhouse kick, flying spinning kicks etc are used in modern Karate. Some people say Gigo Funakoshi[Yoshitaka Funakoshi] created these kicks or Gigo Funakoshi accepted these kicks from Savate through Japanese military in cooperation with French military. But these kicks appeared after more than decade from Gigo Funakoshi’ death in 1945. Spinning back kick and flying side kick appeared in late 1950s and other kicks appeared from 1960s in Karate. Taekwondo was famous for spinning kicks, flying kicks and high kicks. Extension of Taekwondo from 1950s to 1960s had some influence on martial art world as aspect of kick. For example, Kungfu[specially northern style], Kenpo, some standing combat styles and action movie were influenced by Taekwondo kick. Karate will be not exception. Bruce Lee learnt kick from Jhoon Rhee who is known as ‘Father of American Taekwondo’. Chuck Norris learnt kick in Korea. Taekwondo has very short history but became one of most popular martial art and Olympic Game sport due to its kick. Savate and Capoeira had some kicks similar to Taekwondo but were unknown martial arts at the time from 1950s to 1960s in East Asia. Some people say Taekwondo was created at 1954 and think Taekwondo kick appeared at 1954. But Taekwondo kick existed before 1954. Creation of Taekwondo mainly means creation of forms[kind of kata]. ITF Taekwondo forms were created at 1954 by Choi Hong-hee and later more forms were added. WTF Taekwondo forms were created at 1967 by Eom Woon-kyu and Yee Jong-woo. Taekwondo kicks existed before creation of Taekwondo forms. According to interview of Eom Woon-Kyu who was former Kukkiwon president, spinning back kick, spinning hook kick, flying side kick etc were used in sparring before Korean War[1950]. It means Taekwondo kick existed in 1940s. Yee Won-kuk was teacher of Eom Woon-kyu, former Kukkiwon president. Yee Won-kuk went to Japan to study in 1926 and learnt Karate from Gichin Funakoshi when he was studying in Chuo University and came back to Korea in 1944. Yee Won-kuk taught martial art called Tang Soo Do in Korea. He mainly taught Karate and also taught Korean kicks which were originated from Taekkyeon. His school was called Cheong Do Kwan[靑濤館]. Yee Won-kuk went to Japan again in 1951 and taught his martial art in Japan and came back to Korea in 1961. It is said Yee Won-kuk held third belt rank test on forth day of November in 1954 when he was in Japan. And there is a photo of him and his students which was took that day in Japan. Spinning back kick, flying side kick, high roundhouse kick and high side kick which appeared in late 1950s in Karate[Shotokan] very possibly were influenced by Yee Won-kuk’s kick which was same kick to Taekwondo. And more kicks were influenced in 1960s. Traditionally roundhouse kick and side kick were used as body kick in Karate. Most early Taekwondo master learnt Karate and some of them learnt Kungfu. But they never said Taekwondo kick was originated from Karate or Kungfu but always said Taekwondo kick was originated from Taekkyeon. It is unknown when Taekkyeon began. But a mural painting of Taekkyeon was found in ancient tomb of Goguryeo dynasty called Muyongchong[舞踊塚] and a mural painting of Ssireum[Korean wrestling] was found in ancient tomb of Goguryeo dynasty called Gagjeochong[角抵塚]. Both tombs were built at same place about 5th century. Another mural paining of Taekkyeon was found in ancient tomb of Goguryeo dynasty called Anak Tomb No. 3[安岳 3號墳] and built at AD 357.
They bring their back foot up to their front foot and then they kick so it's like a scissor action and it's more of a swing kick where it's karate is more it doesn't telegraph as much with the footwork you don't have the scissor action as much with the feet come together and then it swings up it's more of a power comes more from the hips
I think the hip rotation thing is due to the savate boots. I think the striking area can be the heel OR the toes because the boots are so stury. Remember the Martial Art is always competed with those boots.
How would you fight on an olde World wooden ship in stormy seas fighting off invading pirates or enemy nation navies? Just like Savate! This combat system is perfectly adapted for close quarters combat on the high seas bub ;::))
This is the translation from the french text: Here is "Slow motion" some classics shots(techniques) demonstrated by the professor Charlemont and one of his students.
low kick and "flank kick" from Tc 00; 01, 13, 20./ back of the foot or maybe reverse kick at 00.01.55.21/ jumping back foot(maybe jumping reverse kick) at 00;01,56,02./ a nice head kick at tc: 00:, 04: 47 :01
I believe karate kicks were influenced more by Chinese martial arts then French sevate. I feel like since there is no shoes In karate, they wouldn’t chose to learn kicks that you need medal shoes to do. The northern Shaolin styles have the same kicks you see in karate. Sevate kicks are less technical, they jump before they kick
Southern Shaolin style came from northern Shaolin style. So their kicks should be same or similar. Believe or not, kicks of northern Shaolin style came from Bruce Lee.
Love your videos! I think an important consideration is that France had a large connection with other Asian countries such as China, Thailand, Korea etc. all of which had a good array of kicking techniques as well. This is not to say that savate did not influence other martial arts (such as karate) but it’s also just as likely that savate was influenced by other styles. Ultimately, many styles use similar techniques regardless of their origin. It’s the training methods, practitioners and nuances that make each style unique
"Ultimately, many styles use similar techniques regardless of their origin. It’s the training methods, practitioners and nuances that make each style unique" I agree!
Do one on Vietnamese Wrestling Vat Co Truyen or one on Vovinam and its famous scissor takedowns(made famous by Vietnamese ex fighter Cung Le in sanshou fights.
you are comparing primitive footage to modern style karate but in general i appreciate your open mind and the way you respect other styles of combat because after all there are more ways leading to Rome so to speak.
This video on savate movements may interest you. I don't really understand why modern savate has forgotten the ground throws. Anyway, these old documents from the end of the 19th century are interesting to observe that for a very long time the different martial arts have been influencing each other, learning, improving what they have learned. th-cam.com/video/OyGVBfgRhMw/w-d-xo.html
I think savate's footwork is based on Western fencing footwork. Also their kicking is based on the idea that they are wearing hard shoes... and their punching is based on Western boxing.
Savate in this form seems on its journey to refinement.its the basics that matter.rest is practice.could you elaborate on samurai swordless fighting techniques.thanks.
Roundhouse kick was used with ball of foot in traditional Karate. But roundhouse kick was never used with ball of foot in Savate because Savate fighters wear shoes. Roundhouse kick of traditional Karate disproves Karate kicks came from Savate.
What other martial art would you like me to analyze/react?
Samart Payakaroon Thai MT and western boxing world champion
@@hermespino9985 Thai MT is coming up for sure!
Fencing would be cool!
Taekwondo and Kyokushin please!
Sensei Yusuke I would say Tang Soo Do and Shotokan Karate, would be a very interesting comparison, as they are very similar. Tang Soo Do, is often referred to as 'Korean Karate'.
Part of the reason that what you saw looks different from modern Savate is because Savate went through a significant transition around the time that video was filmed. The older man in that video is one of the Charlemont's, a famous family of Savateurs. Their school represented a more "academic" and "athletic" style of Savate that focused on higher kicks, and more exaggerated movements. Many of their students were well to do and their competitions were geared toward graceful displays of the art more than brutal fighting. They still used the older method of Savate punching which was developed independent of English boxing. Around the time of that video a Savateur named Julien Leclerc was challenging the methods of the Charlemonts with his own style of Savate. His style focused on low to mid line kicks with greater emphasis on non telegraphed movement and power. Leclerc also replaced the old Savate style punching with the punching method of English boxing. Leclerc placed a great deal of emphasis on making Savate a fighting art again by taking it back to it's roots before it was an accepted past time of gentlemen. He spent a great deal of time analyzing style vs style matches where Savate fighters had lost or struggled and sought to apply the lessons learned toward bettering the art. Modern Savate borrows much from both Charlemont and Leclerc schools of Savate.
Oh wow thanks so much for your details!
@@KarateDojowaKu No problem!
That’s how it is with martial arts.
The first text mean :
Here is classical blows demonstrate in slow motion by teacher Charlemont and his students
Second text :
Low kick and middle kick
Third text :
Reverse jump kick
Fourth :
A pretty high kick
Oh wow ! Thank you so much! Merci beaucoup!
i will forever call a high kick "a pretty high kick" from this day onward
As for the stepping motion they do :
That is called "appel du pied", "foot calling". It is a willful telegraphing, you can use it to feint for example.
And it is used as well for the "chassé-croisé", a "crossed kekomi". Basically a yoko geri kekomi but with more momentum for when the opponent is too far away to reach just by pushing from the rear leg. It is a jump kick.
The thing you call an ashi-barai isn't a barai motion, it's rather closer to a kin geri straight kick, but to the shin or knee, it is called "coup de pied bas", "low kick" (not the one in kick boxing though). It is blocked by raising the sole of the shoe.
As for the snapping motions from the knee, kicks in Savate traditionally rely on the shoe as a weapon for power rather on the strength of the fighter striking with force. So one very important principle of action is the "armé", which is a chambering of the kick to give it speed rather than strength. (The shoes French people wore during the creation of Savate usually were made with hard leather soles and a wooden heel, so you can use it as a weapon to ruin your opponent's try at boxing traditionally (mainly by attacking the shin and knee with your feet).
The people showed in the video are Charles Charlemont, the son of Joseph Charlemont, one of the "founding fathers" of modern Savate, and two of his pupils of the time (1924). So he for one used to be one of the top athletes in the discipline in his youth. I don't know for the man and woman we see alongside him in the video.
The origins of Savate are a bit older than that, starting in the early 1800's in the streets of Paris or Marseille with the way gang members and thugs used to street fight, until the first known figure to theorize what they did in a scientific manner (and offer it to the bourgeoisie as a school of self defence) appeared, called Michel Casseux, nicknamed Pisseux. He was the first to produce written rules for Savate, and to forbid some techniques as he wanted to promote sportsmanship and avoid injuries in the Salle d'Armes (training room).
Hope this helps !
You are comparing a video from almost 100 years ago to modern karate. And yet it's still very very similar. Jesse Enkamp must be right
Maybe!
I subscribed you guys channel not because I'm karate practitioner, but I like martial arts world.
Thanks so much!
The evolution of any combat art.
I agree!
Exactly
It's interesting that you comment on the sway present in Savate, because one of the possible origins is as a Sailor's combat technique - keeping loose and able to sway would be vital when fighting on a ship.
I doubt many people were actually practicing savate on the open seas. Probably it's the fencing influence
@@tomtam8789 dude… french navy …
Yes, Savate was started by French sailors. It was easier to strike with your legs while holding on to something with your hands when the ship is rocking back and forth.
Oss!
Hi! I have been a shotokan karateka since I was 6, and now I am 44 years old, and still practicing shotokan. Since 5 years ago though, I have been learning others too, like taekwondo, bjj, and kick boxing. I realized that karate techniques are not stationary. Karate evolves with time. We added judo techniques, as well as new kicks techniques. And nothing to be ashamed! We should be proud. What people are calling "MMA" right now, actually has the same spirit with karate. We learn, we practice to do the techniques we know to perfection, we add new techniques/learn new techniques from other arts, we ditch the techniques that we think will not work.
Try to find out, which year this clip was filmed. Try to find video clips and photos from the similar years. You will find that this savate is closer to modern kumite tournament than the karate from that era. So, I think it is very possibe what Jesse sensei said is true.
We dont find keage geri, kekomi geri, mawashi geri in old katas. So it is obvious we got those frome somewhere else and that is okay. Moreover, it is our duty as current generation karatekas to improve and continue evolving our karate according to the needs today.
It is been a well known fact that there is no written records about high kicks in asian martial art prior to ww1. If you think logically French had good understanding of high kicks from ballet and can-can , nobody else had that base.
@@muhammadibnmusaal-chorezmi7240 That might be true for Japanese martial arts, but several Northern Chinese kung fu styles and Korean Taekkyoen had high kick techniques.
@@danielkim1836 If you know of any original 19th century painting , photo, movie, referral in a book please provide it. Modern historians could not find any
looked very similar to me. if you search for minor differences, you will always find some like the fist is tilted 3 degree more than the other style. it is also wrong to compare with modern karate because modern karate has also changed drastically since the 60s or 70s and instead of rooting to the floor, modern karateka floats and hops around.
Thanks for your perspective!
I would love to a see a collaboration with Jesse. 2 karate nerds meeting 😁
I agree!!
Lol his nerd level is 10 times higher than me, but that's coming up very soon!
@@JWinter93 Haha please look forward to it!
@@JWinter93 Yes! I agree
@@KarateDojowaKu true
I believe Savate was developed by French seaman in the days of sail. The movement of the kicks is designed with the idea that the upper body would be supported by the ubiquitous railing and ropes found on a ships deck.
Might be true
The tai sabaki allows more minimal uke waza. The jumping comes from the gathering step then lunge also it takes into account the grip, friction, and traction of the sole of a boot since if your sole doesn't slide you will tear up your ankles and knees due to torsion. The movements have Ballet and Fencing theory and mechanics applied to kickboxing in boots. Besides normal Boxing footwork there is also Fencing footwork of lunge, passing step, flechette, and flunge. They also have a lead thrust where the arm goes straight first before the lunge gives it impluse momentum, which isn't not used in modern boxe français or kickboxing.
Interesting! Thanks so much for your knowledge!
You may or may not know this, but Bruce Lee adopted the lead thrust performed in the manner you described. He describes it's application in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.
I can see Jesse's connection but there are a lot of differences as well. I think that karate took the concepts of savate and adapted them to make karate stronger.
I agree!
The movements are bigger in the video, I believe, just for demonstration purposes, so we can see the details of the technique more clearly. That's why they jump so high.
It's the same reason Chinese and Indian martial arts forms as well as Silat jurus are exaggerated. I've been told Kata are the same.
I see! Thanks for your insight!
0:50 This is a demonstration of savate's most peculiar techniques in slow motion by master Charlemont and his student
1:47 Low to middle round kick to the side
2:50 jumping hook kick
5:12 a sweet high kick form
Thanks so much for the translation!
@@KarateDojowaKu No problem! Keep up the great content!
0:56 dude forgot his underwear
Thank goodness for compression shorts these days!
Jingle bells lol
He is already on his undies
Doing some reading up on savate, I’ve found the back hand when I trails behind on a kick is because it was used to fight on ships by the sailors so is representing them holding something as they’re kicking on deck of a moving boat
no
But why represent when u r not holding anymore?
You meant ballet dancing from Japan and the western only copied a part of culture from them. C'mon man. Your thought French never use melee combat when they are ran out of ammo? And in western medieval they all used guns ? if you take a look ballet dancer do "high kick" higher than teakwondo and karate. If you thinking in logical then French put some strength in their ballet art can fight and keep Balancing in the boat . i think this guy's comment are reasonable. i love japan and karate but need more intel. best regard !
@@YoGribouillie i think you are ignore Jesse analysis in description
@@dragoncrusader3356 i study savate and frenchboxing history
I'm speaking french if you need help with translations. This footage from 1896 shows similar technique as karate. th-cam.com/video/uedqehuzYdA/w-d-xo.html
I believe the kicking evolved and eventually people realised that using the front foot for throwing a kick was not as effective because you are basically telling the opponent you are about to kick. In recent footage this technique has basically dissapeared.
Also, even though it was a "street fighting" self-defense martial arts, you have to remember that as a sport, it was supposed to be a replacement for fencing and the goal was not to be the most efficient, but the goal was to hit (touch) the opponent.
As a kid I saw karate/kung fu as exotic but the more you learn, the more you realise every martial art around the world was influenced by many others, even when communication and travel was challenging. That's what impresses me the most. I believe MMA is the lastest of the "evolution" of mixing martials arts. It was bound to happen eventually :)
Thanks so much for your offer and the insight you've provided for everybody!
I will check it out!
Putting the opposite arm behind you when kicking actually increases the range by a few inches. It's a world of difference when kicking with footwear and using the tip of your foot.
What's being demonstrated is probably the ideal when hitting at the absolute maximum distance. Like the tip of the fencing sword.
Actually, that kamae hand position was common back then. I do Wado Ryu and all of our kihon kumite, ippon kumite sets have similar guard. Shoulders are much more square not sideways. Same guard is used by Choki Motobu and some top Japanese coaches. To see how it is used in action, you may check Seiji Nishimura's Kumite instructional videos on TH-cam. He doesn't tell his students to use that stance for kumite but he himself operates from that guard.
It was developed as a complete system of defense. It started with sailors fighting on ships (origins chauson or shoe) later Cane fighting and street applications were added. There are three aspects that have sort of diverged. I think I've got it right, but it might be best to ask someone who understands all the branches, not just a savate boxer, or a cane fighter.
karaté Stances and movement came from Kendo and Iado (japanese swordmanship) since Gigo Funakoshi took lessons from Hakuda nakayama . In a very old footage of funakoshi around the 20’s 30’s we can see Gichin using many types of kicks. Many karate masters apart from shotokan like gochen yamaguchi, mas oyama , Nakamura or others shorin ryu masters have performed variety of kicks without gigo’s funakoshi tutelage or influence. And the real father of sport karate is masatoshi nakayama who had north chinese kung-fu influence who made his karate more spectacular. Last point: jesse didnt bring any sources to read or watch to prove his point.
Thanks for your insight!
Can you give a link of the old footage of funakoshi?
@@greenland4254 go on the TH-cam search bar and type on : Funakoshi 1924 you’ll find some very old footage.
@@yossefgabay5633 There was roundhouse kick but no hook kick and spinning kick in the video. The roundhouse kick was done with ball of foot. But typical Karate roundhouse kick is done with top of foot like TKD.
@@leavesofgarden3932 back in the days in old Okinawa tradition they were hitting with the toes sharp as knives (tsumasaki) and the sword side of the foot (sokuto) then in the 30´s they were hitting with the ball of the foot (chusoku)and sport kumite today with top of the foot (heisoku) and shin in full contact forms.
Everybody has two hand and two legs, there are only so many ways you can fight until everything looks the same
I agree!
The devil is in the details!
And when everything is stadardized enough, some dude with a move that nobody practices surprises averyone and gets some cred, then everyone starts doing it or working up a counter or two xD
Unending cycle
At the time of this video many of the techniques in Savate were to be utilized like fencing. That is to say, hit without getting hit much like what you see in point Karate: To hit is to win. This began to change in the latter half of the century, particularly as kickboxing hit the global stage. By the 1980's Savate fully incorporated western boxing and changed it's mentality from foot fencing to "Boxe Française". To me it was at its technical peak from the 80's to the early 2000's.
Edit: Just watched Jesse's video and I'm saying basically the exact same thing.
I think what jesse said is that to develop the rules of kumite yashitaka sensei got inspired by savate.. Anyway i see Karate as a kind of "classical mma", because it was actually build from a mix of diferent old martial arts: okinawan, chinese, japanese and in the modern days the ocidental influences like this savate stuffs.
I agree! Interesting dive into karate...
I have heard this story of karate kicks being from savate before Jesse and I think like modern day savate we evolved the kicks
That's great!
Not all karate kicks. Some karate kicks are inspired from Savate such as the roundhouse but others were developed in it.
@@Hassan114. cool
3:55 Indeed savate kicks comes from the knee wether it is the front kicks or the roundhouses the power comes from the knee. This way of kicking is less powerfull but allows the savateur to be more mobile during and after the kicks.
Thanks for the insight!
Actually that depends on the type of kick.Rear leg kicks do use the weight of the body and both front and rear leg also includes hip useage.Also Joseph Claremont's Savate kicks where very flicky flicky, where as other instructors where more like what I described
@@josephperkins4080 Well yes the hip is bound to be involved it just happens that savate puts the emphasis on the extention of the knee rather than than the hip. This is reflected in the rules of savate were kicks have to be chambered, even the crescent kicks.
less powerful without a shoe, with a shoe and a hard toe, no need to engage his hip, harassing a kick with the power of the knee is enough
The technique that you are calling Ashi Barai is actually not a sweep in Savate it is called Coup de Pied Bas (literally low foot strike) - it is a kick, often used to block the opponent’s forward movement.
Ahh. So it's more of an aggressive defense technique rather than a setup for an attack!
@@KarateDojowaKu It can be used as a feint, a disrupting attack or a setup attack. But honestly, it is very rarely used in modern full contact savate. It is still teached as a "typical technic" which can be used as a surprising technic in competitions were you just aim to touch rather than hit to gain points.
Greetings from Helsinki, Finland.
This historical approach to karate - from the European (French) point of view - through savate is very interesting. I have been training savate for decades (yes, I'm a middle aged man) and only recently has this insight been brought up. Personally, I don't see the issue significant, i.e. it does not increase my appreciation of savate or decreace my respect of karate (I trained wado ryu as an teenager). However, one should acknowledge the history in order to look forward.
Thank you for sharing this video. Sore wa arigataidesu!
Charles Charlemont actually was indeed a top Savateur. One of the reasons his Savate stands out was because his Savate techniques were based off the same principles as fencing-, with an emphasis on precision rather than strength--hence his tendency for light, quick strikes.
Also, the boots. You don't need widely telegraphed ultra powerful kicks to knock out a person where you can do a precise, chambered kick in a hardtop boot to the liver
That front lunge step is taken from sword fighting they just adapted it to the kicks.....works pretty well for gaining distance because the body will naturally want to spring up.
I can offer you a breakdown of modern Savate mechanics. This old video isn't representative, I'm sure you realise. Would you like to play Savate and Karate comparison with some better footage?
An interesting video. I'd have liked you to include some Karate video in the same time period as the Savate video to analyze, then perhaps show modern vs modern.
Thanks!
As to the roundhouse kick, there is no single genuine technical reference to the Chinese martial arts (including the northern kung fu reputed to have some high kicks in their arsenal) which could have passed down to the Japanese Karate master. Savate seems to be the only link that could explain the sudden appearance of high kicks in the modern Karate. Since the original Savate also incorporated the gymnastic prevalent in the Europe at that time, it must have influenced the modern Karate warm up and conditioning, stretching exercise routines as well.
People often say Bruce Lee was innovative in his effort to incorporate European Fencing to his Jeekundo. Now, we know that it was actually French who were far ahead of Bruce Lee and actually materialized this kind of concept more concretely centuries ago. The modern Karate masters should be praised for their openness to learn new things and developing completely new sets of kick techniques in order to improve their own styles.
Thanks for your insight!
I've seen crescent kicks at head level in old kung fu footage tho.
There's also a video attributed to 1924 that shows funakoshi and his students doing a variety of high and jumping kicks. There's even a front kick in a kata that is a little above belt level.
@@retroghidora6767 Can you give a link of the video of funakoshi and his student?
@@greenland4254 sure!
The " fancy" kicks start coming around the 15 min mark but I encourage anyone to go through the whole video as there's kicking above the belt throughout here and there!
th-cam.com/video/enttNLnjSXs/w-d-xo.html
I'd love to see a video comparing footage of karate from that time with the savate footage you found on savate and then compare the modern forms of the 2 sports ^^
Hi there. I´ve got a question for you: What do you think about the fact that Japanese martial arts and Chinese martial arts often compete each other? I mean over the years I´ve often encountered such discussions and I also came to realize that especially ordinary people tend to get highly influenced by martial arts movies whose purpose is actually just entertainment. Nevertheless people often come up with the fact that Chinese often produce anti-Japanese martial arts movies on a regular basis like "Ip Man 1" or "Fist of Fury" where Chinese seem to express their hate towards Japanese and Japanese martial arts by making Japanese martial arts look bad on purpose! What do you think of that? I personally think it´s quite annoying and provocative since Japanese martial arts are good after all and absolutely not necessarily inferior to Chinese martial arts like the Chinese always want to indicate in their films!
Haha I think that's only in the context of movies, just like the Hollywood movies always have the Russians as the enemy. I believe the martial arts themselves look up to each other
Real world answer is china in ww2 is under japans control so u know the answer
Japan did a lot of *really* nasty things to the Chinese and South East Asians during WWII, so it's kind of natural that they always portray them as their enemies (especially when it's set in a historical context, which would then be accurate). Likewise in the early 20th century China was messed up with by the Europeans, so movies set in those times would portray Westerners as their enemy, which is also kinda historically correct
I suppose Chinese people will probably never get over the fact that Japan invaded them in World War 2. Even producing Chinese-hate movies will never solve that.
wow that footage is AMAZING
It would be amazing if you review modern day sabate fights (the full-contact ones).
PD: im shocked how similar to karate this old school savate is.
I watched it, and seemed pretty different from the "traditional" savate
@@KarateDojowaKu Yes, modern day Boxe Française has little to nothing to do with traditional savate.
Then again, traditional Shotokan karate (I can't speak about other styles, I know too little) doesn't exactly look like competition kumite karate either ;)
You can't expect something developed as a self-defence technique with violence in mind to evolve the same way as a toned down, tamed version intended for sports, even fighting sports. It will go two different ways every time.
@@simonmagnum7821 Savate still retains self-defence savate as one of the disciplines, and it's a little more similar to the old school style
Good way of observing the differences.
Seems close enough to have evolved into modern karate. Especially if you account for the many generations that have gone by
What?! Now you sounds like Jesse...😄✌🏻👍🏻
Haha really?
Great to see your technical aproach! Thanks!This person actually is the "father" of modern French Boxing Savate (Charles Charlemont). I've had the same subject on my "channel to come in January 2021" but I had launch the video 2h after Jesse to avoid being called a copy cat from the begining :D Keep your videos coming ;) thanks alot, Renato
That's great! Thanks so much for your information!
@@KarateDojowaKu Thank you! I will probably explore more about Savate itself in the future once I have alot of info in French I'd like to share with English-speaking audience.
Karate was imported to Brazil around the same time Judo was. So it's safe to say that Karate may have influenced the kicks in Capoeira. As a Capoeira practitioner myself I don't rule it out.
React to some grappling martial art or to karate kicks in American kickboxing.
Good video and OSS!
Thanks! I've done boxing and bjj reaction video!
Savate was using shoes, while karate is bare footed, so they had to make changes to adapt to the bare feet (else there would be too much pain in the feet) when taking over from Savate.
I commented on Jesse's video as well, I'll copy my comment below
Interesting connection! I wouldn't be at all surprised that European style military drills were influential in the formation of modern Karate training.
However, the mechanics of Savate kicks are pretty different than Karate kicks and there's very few/any jumping kicks in Savate. In addition, the focal point of the Savate kick tends to be related to the toe of the shoe vs the focal points of Karate kicks.
Given the time frame (late 19th early 20th century), and the Japanese occupation of Korea during this time (starting with the Japan-Korea treaty of 1876 and then the Annexation in 1910), I would wager that the new kicks coming into Karate were more likely imported from neighboring Korea. There is ample cross pollination between the martial arts from both countries. For example, modern Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do pumsae are borrowed from Karate, and modern Korean sword fighting (Kumdo) is an imported version of Kendo. There's also likely quite a bit of cross breeding between Judo, Aikido, Ssireum, Sumo, and Hapkido, and all of the kicks and jumping kicks mentioned in your video, and the biomechanics of how they are executed are present in Korean art of Taekkyeon. Modern sports Tae Kwon Do and Karate matches look more like a Taekkyeon match than a Savate match.
Testing this, slightly further out, Northern Chinese arts also feature a great number of similar kicks (jumping kicks, high roundhouse and side kicks, various spinning kicks), but are traditionally executed with different mechanics than the Korean kicks and lack staples like hook and spinning back/side kicks. The Japanese would have likely encountered these during the various invasions of Manchuria in either 1894 or 1931, but don't seem to have imported elements of those styles.
Some examples:
- Karate vs Savate - th-cam.com/video/m3I6oF2LUbI/w-d-xo.html
- Tang Soo Do Pumsae vs. Shotokan forms - th-cam.com/video/-uZgfkC9A0g/w-d-xo.html
- Taekkyeon - th-cam.com/video/dYTkX8Va1FU/w-d-xo.html
- Championship Savate Match - th-cam.com/video/XH20I5GhEH0/w-d-xo.html
From fench to english it basically says: "Savate/ Charles Clarmont.
Here in slow motion are some classic moves demonstrated by professor Clarmont".
So...part of my family was Canadian french and I first learned about Savate as a child, even cross training a bit when I started studying Karate.
Savate is rumored to have been brought back to french provinces, from sailors trading with other countries specifically China and Thailand.
Only after swords were banned in France or at least citys like Paris, was Savate popularized and taught by out of work fencing instructors, (I think Jesse said that too).
These instructors added European boxing and applied these kicking martial arts techniques to modified fencing drills.
Thats why in Savate they often over extend, leaping and lunging as you would in fencing, to score a point.
Back then gymnastics and ballet dance studios were popular places to exercise and often trained along side fencing and so with their increased flexibility, they were able to use more dynamic kicks to the face and upper torso.
Jesse is correct, in the way that it became 1 and 3 step sparring and point fighting sport karate.
Which ultimately influenced karate do and karate jutsu forever or at least how we learned and practice kumite.
Everything influences everything, I suppose.
I like to believe of Karate as a more minimalist mastery of mind, body strengthening and movement which can be used for self preservation.
IMO Savate is athletic sport of foot fencing and sort of entertainment kickboxing at best.
Thanks for posting!
Savate has different versions that are practiced
1 sport form la box francaise
2 savate
3 savate defensive
4 its original form which was originally designed to be able to fight aboard navy and merchant ships while in the ocean and for street fighting
Was not properly standardized until 1830s after which English boxing was integrated into the
If one goes into early history of art being practiced by sailors then awkward foot positioning might make sense along with the weight and fit of shoes and boots that they wore would affect balance and speed
Try karate with heavy electrical work boots and practice on a sailboat with a slippery wooden deck and your shoes and boots have a smooth sole and heel and the boat is in 10 ft sea then you had to kick while staying out of range of a sword knife or hatchet wielding opponent which might explain the awkward body positioning and lack of techniques within clinching range
Good video but if you go deep enough into history of savate its unfamiliar movement and positions could be explained
How can you explain that the Karate kicks look just like the Kung Fu kicks that Karate had so recently decended from? Shorin ryo or "Shaolin" school, Goju Ryu had white crane added to it from it's Soke Chojun Miyagi. Shorei ryu that Miyagi studied came from the Shoreiji Temple in southern China. Yet we are asked to believe the kicks came from Savat in France not the Kung Fu it was so closely related to? Even though many the founders of those styles studied Kung Fu in China, but the kicks supposedly came from France?? I don't buy it.
I agree, all the kicks they say came from France are in many forms of traditional Chinese martial arts. I highly doubt the kicks came from some french kickboxing style
@@ericdelpiano8552 And Taekwondo, Silat, and Indian martial arts.
@@sonnystaton yeah exactly!
Thanks both of your for the knowledge!
I studied Shaolin Kung Fu and JKD a long time ago. About 5 years ago, I studied Savate, and now I practice my own version Savat. It is probably likely that the Chinese "invented" these kicks before the French. Part of their ancient training is Clearing the Chess Board, visualizing, then practicing certain techniques.
Savate was supposedly started by Navy Soldiers who would hold onto part of the ship while kicking, hence their love for high kicks. It is probably more difficult to clear the chessboard while on a crowded ship full of drunk soldiers. As opposed to a Chinaman meditating in the woods..
The rule set for competition can be a factor on how techniques are done. The ura mawashi geri in karate and Taekwondo are done differently. In Taekwondo the kick extended past the head more because it allowed for knockouts. I believe base on the rule is how people practice techniques.
I totally agree with your point!
Noticed comments about developed from fencing, was meant to be developed from sailors on ships , hence the sway and holding onto netting led to different styles of kicks and punches . The stamp of front foot may have been due to steading before launched attack to have a firm base before you attacked to get balance and power using motion of ship. Fencing style added later when on land to compensate for some of attacks not working fully in land situation. The liver kick for example perfect from ship motion/ kinetics and incorporated successfully on land. Very effective attack as completely disables opponent as toxins hit brain making collapse and inability to defend . Surprised no mention of this , also lost ability to attack head in modern version as counted to dangerous. Pity
techniques de savate
0.53 chassé croisé sauté bas ( cross-jumped side-kick low) by attacker
as you can see, Pr Charlemont, dodges with a forward leap, and in right guard (fencing tradition) simply blocks with his front fist.
1.50 coup de pied bas , et coup de pied fouetté médian ( de flanc ) low kick , then round- kick ( on torso )
Pr Charlemont, block with the glove
3.08, Fist warm-up, fists are always used to launch foot techniques ( 3.15 coup de pied bas (low kick), 3.20 fouetté médian (round-kick on torso) 3.30 fouetté figure ( round-kick on head )
3.34 fouetté médian ( round kick on torso) 3.36 chassé-croisé sauté médian (cross-jumped side -kick on torso)
3.40 revers figure (reverse-kick on head) and fouetté figure (round-kick on head ) this combination is called : "le giflé" in french (the slap)
many blows with fist and "coup de pied bas "
4.26 fouetté médian (round kick on torso) with many " blocages "
bonjour de France
The modern day savate has two types of competition, one is very similar to kumite and the other to kickboxing. I do think this explained where the kicks came from ( except mae geri and yoko geri, those are found in the katas).
Ohh I didn't know there were two types of competitions!
@@KarateDojowaKu The equivalent to our sport kumite is called "Assaut".
Ok so the history of savate comes from Paris Street fighting where they combined Queensbury ruled boxing with French foot fighting. They also used their shoes as weapons by hardening the toe, even using steel toe boots, which is why savate kick hit with the toe instead of the back of the foot. Hope this helps.
I heard, savate came to French from East Asia, but I don`t know is this version true.
This is one of JKD influences
Nah
Jessy mentioned that they got their footwork from fencing the small stamp/hop you're talking about looks quite a bit like a Balestra used in fencing.
Mawashi geri (roundhouse kick) and foutté (whip kick) difference: mawashi geri uses the instep more while foutté uses the point of the toe/shoe (even the street version of mawashi geri the toe of the shoe is effective similar to the savate version).
The savate is tied to sword thrusting and since French, probably also ballet or dance. Karate kicks generally are part of a systematic attack and is more stable since stance is very important and the side kick uses the outside of the foot. But you can see the similarities in the basics.
Great stuff,keep them coming
Notification Squad!
Yeahhhhh
Really interesting that the old school way of defending in savate looks like a mix of old school English boxing and wingchun with like A LOT of wingchung influence
It would be interesting to compare this history to taekwondo. So far, I can't find any references to savate in histories of taekwondo, but its pretty obvious we use the same basic kicking techniques. While it's possible TKD picked it all up from Karate during the occupation, you would think the same traders who introduced savate to Japan would have visited Korea as well.
The main difference between modern kick boxing and modern savate is in the rule set. First, in savate, you can't hit with the leg, only with the foot. This means that you need to manage different distances between punches and kicks (this would be considered to be an out of legal range kick). This is the reason why modern savate keeps a feincing like feeling. Moreover, you can't block with your leg either so you need to emphasis mobility to avoid low kicks. Then, in savate, you wear shoes, so hitting with the foot and even with the toes makes sense and can be very painful even with much less power than in kickboxing. You can even block some of the low kicks with the foot plant by kicking the opponent incoming chin or pushing on his thigh (and this can cause a hell of a pain!).
I’d like to add to your comment that in Karate we do Tobikomi by pushing off with the back leg. I learned it some decades ago, but to PULL with the front foot rather than push with the back foot. I think pulling makes the move a little more subtle without “telegraphing” by pushing off with the back foot. Anyway, that’s how I’ve done it for many years successfully. I do it with front kick, side thrust kick, front punch, etc.. One of my old teachers was devastating doing Tobikomi. He would be in his opponent’s Ma before the opponent could react. He’d get them thinking about his side thrust kick and then knock them out with his backhand.
I don't think there was a lot of ladies in the world doing those kind of kicks in 1924. Very interesting footage.
Honestly, I see more similarity between modern point kumite and traditional savate than I do modern point kumite and traditional Okinawan karate. Okinawan karate, from what I've heard, was traditionally supposed to be very close and dirty. Throws, trips, eye gouges, short punches, knees, short fast kicks to the legs and groin, elbows, forearms, etc. It seems like traditional Karate fought from punch range to clinch range. Yes, there are some differences for sure, but modern point kumite looks like someone took straight up Savate and added in Karate aesthetics and added in kiba dachi and zenkutsu dachi. Probably some movements from Karate. And this is JUST for point kumite. I'm not saying Savate had any influence on bunkai or kihon or kata.
Great vid. It would be nice to see some break downs in Kali. Keep up the good work!
Wow, very interesting! I can see why Bruce Lee admired savate!
That's not an Ashi Barai that's a Chasse Bas Oblique kick which I covered and proper counters this week in my Ramsey Dewey Oblique kick defense Rebuttal video
I see! Thanks!
When they do the ashi barai is like they do a kata unsu in the kick
Ahh it's the same in the sense that it's to the gedan
@@KarateDojowaKu its not a ashi barai nor a sweep. Its a low kick using the inner edge of the "boot" to attack the shin bone. (Savate uses shoes/boots for attacks hence why the kicks are not like karate, they use flicking kicks because they use the hard part of the boots for damage)
Origin of Karate kick
Traditional Karate had front kick, side kick and crescent kick. These kicks appear in traditional kata. It is said Karate came from Kungfu. But traditional Kungfu didn’t have side kick. It is difficult to say front kick and crescent kick came from Kugnfu because they are basic kick any human can try easily from long time ago.
Modern Karate uses diverse kicks. For example, spinning back kick, spinning hook kick, hook kick, flying side kick, flying roundhouse kick, flying spinning kicks etc are used in modern Karate. Some people say Gigo Funakoshi[Yoshitaka Funakoshi] created these kicks or Gigo Funakoshi accepted these kicks from Savate through Japanese military in cooperation with French military. But these kicks appeared after more than decade from Gigo Funakoshi’ death in 1945. Spinning back kick and flying side kick appeared in late 1950s and other kicks appeared from 1960s in Karate.
Taekwondo was famous for spinning kicks, flying kicks and high kicks. Extension of Taekwondo from 1950s to 1960s had some influence on martial art world as aspect of kick. For example, Kungfu[specially northern style], Kenpo, some standing combat styles and action movie were influenced by Taekwondo kick. Karate will be not exception. Bruce Lee learnt kick from Jhoon Rhee who is known as ‘Father of American Taekwondo’. Chuck Norris learnt kick in Korea. Taekwondo has very short history but became one of most popular martial art and Olympic Game sport due to its kick. Savate and Capoeira had some kicks similar to Taekwondo but were unknown martial arts at the time from 1950s to 1960s in East Asia.
Some people say Taekwondo was created at 1954 and think Taekwondo kick appeared at 1954. But Taekwondo kick existed before 1954. Creation of Taekwondo mainly means creation of forms[kind of kata]. ITF Taekwondo forms were created at 1954 by Choi Hong-hee and later more forms were added. WTF Taekwondo forms were created at 1967 by Eom Woon-kyu and Yee Jong-woo. Taekwondo kicks existed before creation of Taekwondo forms. According to interview of Eom Woon-Kyu who was former Kukkiwon president, spinning back kick, spinning hook kick, flying side kick etc were used in sparring before Korean War[1950]. It means Taekwondo kick existed in 1940s.
Yee Won-kuk was teacher of Eom Woon-kyu, former Kukkiwon president. Yee Won-kuk went to Japan to study in 1926 and learnt Karate from Gichin Funakoshi when he was studying in Chuo University and came back to Korea in 1944. Yee Won-kuk taught martial art called Tang Soo Do in Korea. He mainly taught Karate and also taught Korean kicks which were originated from Taekkyeon. His school was called Cheong Do Kwan[靑濤館]. Yee Won-kuk went to Japan again in 1951 and taught his martial art in Japan and came back to Korea in 1961. It is said Yee Won-kuk held third belt rank test on forth day of November in 1954 when he was in Japan. And there is a photo of him and his students which was took that day in Japan. Spinning back kick, flying side kick, high roundhouse kick and high side kick which appeared in late 1950s in Karate[Shotokan] very possibly were influenced by Yee Won-kuk’s kick which was same kick to Taekwondo. And more kicks were influenced in 1960s. Traditionally roundhouse kick and side kick were used as body kick in Karate.
Most early Taekwondo master learnt Karate and some of them learnt Kungfu. But they never said Taekwondo kick was originated from Karate or Kungfu but always said Taekwondo kick was originated from Taekkyeon. It is unknown when Taekkyeon began. But a mural painting of Taekkyeon was found in ancient tomb of Goguryeo dynasty called Muyongchong[舞踊塚] and a mural painting of Ssireum[Korean wrestling] was found in ancient tomb of Goguryeo dynasty called Gagjeochong[角抵塚]. Both tombs were built at same place about 5th century. Another mural paining of Taekkyeon was found in ancient tomb of Goguryeo dynasty called Anak Tomb No. 3[安岳 3號墳] and built at AD 357.
You need to compare original Karate before WW2 (20's and 30's) to this video. Karate has evolved since it's first adopted kicks from French boxing.
It's a coup de bas not ashi barai. They are striking the shin bone. It can be turned into a sweep. Also the have shoes on which makes a difference.
Wow shin bone!
React kalari payatu fight . Love from India.
Thanks for the recommendation!
They bring their back foot up to their front foot and then they kick so it's like a scissor action and it's more of a swing kick where it's karate is more it doesn't telegraph as much with the footwork you don't have the scissor action as much with the feet come together and then it swings up it's more of a power comes more from the hips
I think the hip rotation thing is due to the savate boots. I think the striking area can be the heel OR the toes because the boots are so stury. Remember the Martial Art is always competed with those boots.
Plus, everything looks diferrent in a gi than in tights of course.
You should compare also with modern savate
That's true!
Looks like some of the kicks use a similar motion to a skate board Oli(skateboard jump).
ozz! shihan
Oss!
How would you fight on an olde World wooden ship in stormy seas fighting off invading pirates or enemy nation navies? Just like Savate! This combat system is perfectly adapted for close quarters combat on the high seas bub ;::))
Thanks for your insight!
My fave savate techniques front leg roundhouse kick drift kick and chasse bas
Yeah it's a good analysis of French sabbat somebody sabbat savate
This is the translation from the french text: Here is "Slow motion" some classics shots(techniques) demonstrated by the professor Charlemont and one of his students.
low kick and "flank kick" from Tc 00; 01, 13, 20./ back of the foot or maybe reverse kick at 00.01.55.21/ jumping back foot(maybe jumping reverse kick) at 00;01,56,02./ a nice head kick at tc: 00:, 04: 47 :01
I hope this translation will be good enough for you, because of my bad english.
I believe karate kicks were influenced more by Chinese martial arts then French sevate. I feel like since there is no shoes In karate, they wouldn’t chose to learn kicks that you need medal shoes to do. The northern Shaolin styles have the same kicks you see in karate. Sevate kicks are less technical, they jump before they kick
Interesting! That's also a possibility! Thanks for your insight!
Southern Shaolin style came from northern Shaolin style. So their kicks should be same or similar. Believe or not, kicks of northern Shaolin style came from Bruce Lee.
@@boatcruise9220 lol
Love your videos!
I think an important consideration is that France had a large connection with other Asian countries such as China, Thailand, Korea etc. all of which had a good array of kicking techniques as well.
This is not to say that savate did not influence other martial arts (such as karate) but it’s also just as likely that savate was influenced by other styles.
Ultimately, many styles use similar techniques regardless of their origin. It’s the training methods, practitioners and nuances that make each style unique
"Ultimately, many styles use similar techniques regardless of their origin. It’s the training methods, practitioners and nuances that make each style unique" I agree!
Exact we learn from each other
Also remember this was meant to be done with hard shoes or boots on..Think steel toes
Very interesting, modern karate is not as millenary as we thought, bit is very usefull, we can see it in real mma fights
It's more likely that Karate techniques and high kicks came from Chinese Kungfu and Korean Martial arts
Do one on Vietnamese Wrestling Vat Co Truyen or one on Vovinam and its famous scissor takedowns(made famous by Vietnamese ex fighter Cung Le in sanshou fights.
you are comparing primitive footage to modern style karate but in general i appreciate your open mind and the way you respect other styles of combat because after all there are more ways leading to Rome so to speak.
Non c'è da stupirsi se uno tra i più grandi campioni di Karate erano anche praticanti d Savate-Dominique Valera-....E' storia!!
After 5 minutes of research funokoshi actually knew shoto ryu and that comes from white crane Kung fu
This video on savate movements may interest you. I don't really understand why modern savate has forgotten the ground throws. Anyway, these old documents from the end of the 19th century are interesting to observe that for a very long time the different martial arts have been influencing each other, learning, improving what they have learned.
th-cam.com/video/OyGVBfgRhMw/w-d-xo.html
I agree with you
Because wants make more athletic not like self defense or martial art
I think savate's footwork is based on Western fencing footwork. Also their kicking is based on the idea that they are wearing hard shoes... and their punching is based on Western boxing.
Yes please!!!
Savate in this form seems on its journey to refinement.its the basics that matter.rest is practice.could you elaborate on samurai swordless fighting techniques.thanks.
Step In side kick we use front leg power only
At the last moment, I think there is a stronger emphasis on the hips and the back leg in karate :)
@@KarateDojowaKu yes sensei
Roundhouse kick was used with ball of foot in traditional Karate. But roundhouse kick was never used with ball of foot in Savate because Savate fighters wear shoes. Roundhouse kick of traditional Karate disproves Karate kicks came from Savate.
Karate started using instep with roundhouse kick from 1960s. So probably using instep with roundhouse kick was influenced by Taekwondo or Muay Thai.