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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Overly Sarcastic Productions: Trope Talk Plot Twists Reaction
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Trope Talk: Plot Twists
• Trope Talk: Plot Twists
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7:08 In interviews GRRM has said the opposite. Namely, "If you've been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that.” That GRRM wouldn't change his ending makes more sense to me; people online have been guessing THE BIGGEST plot twist in the series (R+L=J) since 1997 and he didn't change the buildup after that. His big issue isn't changing things, its creating too many loose ends and struggling to tie them up satisfyingly.
Ned Stark dying isn't a plot twist because he was played by Sean Bean
True. 😅👍
Just for the record, in case you haven't seen their Hero's Journey video, that one is a Trope Talk narrated entirely by Blue
Haven't seen that one yet, but I might need to check it out next. 😮
I'll suggest her Trope talk on "The Conservation of Ninjutsu" it's a fun trope, even if just for the name.
40:33 I also really liked the Thor plotline in Endgame. Particularly that he didn't magically become buff again once he got his confidence back.
The actor himself had to push for that! Apparently they initially wanted him getting his powers and outfit back to make him buff again. Hemsworth didn't like that.
"Everyone knows the Terminator 2 twist"
Me: Never seen anything from Terminator in my life
You should absolutely watch the Spiderverse movies (yes, there are two of them already: "Into the Spiderverse" and "Across the Spiderverse"). They are without a doubt some of the best animated movies of the most recent years, and easily the best movies based on Marvel properties.
I treat Martin's writing method for GoT as "Schrodinger's Protagonist". He has described it as "you shouldn't know for sure that the 'good guys' win and survive while the 'bad guys' are defeated and die. Death should be on the table for *any* character; if the circumstances become lethal, don't pull them out of it, just let them die." I'm paraphrasing here, but that's the gist of it. But, really, that's not really a *story,* so much, as a D&D campaign with a DM who doesn't know how to properly scale encounters. And we also can recall the saying, "History is written by the winners." So the story, effectively, becomes "Game of Schrodinger's MC"; *someone* is the main protag who had somehow managed to make it through the story alive... but we're not going to figure out who until the end.
The books are pretty clear on who's a villain and who is the protagonist, but when you have 3 main good guys that are part of three different factions it gets intresting. For example Catelyn Tully is a minor villain for Jon, but a major support for Ned Stark (who is one of the good guys of book 1). There's also the fact that there are gray character like Jaime, who is the third in command of the main bad guys faction yet is often shown in a positive light and potentially may leave the bad guys faction
@@Lampoluke Well, another aspect of it is that people often confuse terms like protagonist, antagonist, hero, villain, good guys, bad guys, etc. So when they hear, "oh, the hero always wins because the story is *about* them", it's entirely based on an equivocation of hero with _protagonist._ The primary PoV character(s) for the story are the Protagonist(s); but that says nothing about their heroic nor moral character. Light Yagami was a Protagonist for Death Note and one could hardly claim he had spotless moral intentions or a particularly heroic quality. When people say "everyone is the hero of their own story," what they really _mean_ is everyone is the *protagonist* of their own story; but most of those stories aren't worth writing.
"And then he was unceremoniously cut down by an enemy soldier before accomplishing any significant goals in his life... the end. (Page 15)"
Martin constantly claims his stories are written where "anyone could die, the characters don't have plot armor". But, realistically, what he's actually done is have several stories woven together and if the Protagonist of one of those stories ends up dying, we discover retroactively that their story had been a tragedy all leading up to that ending; their individual story is _finished._ A Protagonist *must,* by definition, survive to the end, or at least very close to the end and then the story closes out with an epilogue on a deuteragonist. You really can't have a story where *the* protagonist dies half-way through; but you _can_ stitch together a _pair_ of stories where one ends in tragedy with the death of its protagonist, but then the next immediately picks up the plot and rums with it, yielding a more resolved ending.
@@omargoodman2999 yes, I phrased that poorly (english is not my first language). What I was trying to say is that all the protagonists of GoT are tragic and realistic heroes and they mostly go against evil antagonists. The white walkers are a full blown Lovencraftian faction (one of like 12) Lannisters and Barateons destroyed the realms, most people who Daenerys faces are terrible slavers. But when you basically have 3 main characters (Jon, Daenerys, Tirion) and every book you get another 2-3 protagonists to the point that exists a bonus filler book (the fourth) that you have to read to keep up with the plot, it really becomes more intresting than your standard hero vs villain. You still have your basic medieval stories, but the exploration of those themes and uncertainty about who is going to win (if they are even going to fight) really brings it up compared to your basic totallynotTolkien slop.
@@Lampoluke Exactly. And that's kind of the point I was getting at. Amidst all these swimming narratives, it gets fuzzy and uncertain which ones are leading up to tragic endings vs which ones (if any) are leading to _less_ tragic ones. Maybe by the end legitimately *no one* wins; and maybe that's the whole point.
One of Martin's writing techniques is to take some social concept he is opposed to, such as war or social exploitation or political corruption, and just take it to eleven. Make it just *so* over-the-top and objectionable to show, "this is the end-result if you let this go too far; is *this* what _you_ want to end up with in real life?"
So fighting the White Walkers can be a metaphor for trying to deal with Climate Change. It's not an enemy; it's a force of nature that you just have to perpetually guard against.
People want to claim the Iron Throne thinking it will unify the land and stop conflict, but the throne, *itself,* is _built_ out of that conflict and just gets bigger and more desirable with more conflict. That includes the conflict incurred to "unify". The only *real* way to bring peace from those kinds of conflict would be to totally dismantle the throne. But then there would be no unity to deal with large-scale threats that require more than any one nation can muster (like the aforementioned White Walkers).
Stephen Moffat is great at writing individual episodes, Blink is top tier television. But make him a showrunner and man he fumbles hard. Hbomber’s Sherlock is Garbage really goes into the shock bait “conclusion the audience couldn’t reach” schtick he employed for the show.
I situationally LOVE spoilers. Sometimes spoilers are the only reason I watch a piece of media to begin with. Or, like you mentioned in the context of Romeo and Juliet, sometimes a story has a spoiler baked in. One of my favorite plays of all time is Hadestown, and if you know ANYTHING about its source myths, you KNOW how it’s going to end, and you spend the whole play hoping they’ll find some way to cheat it, and you know it’s not going to work, and the play is still fantastic. Sometimes going in blind really does have that wonderful shock and surprise, but a story shouldn’t be ruined by knowing it’s big twist.
And to touch on Spiderverse - I have seen the movie probably a dozen times by this point and the reveal of the Prowler’s identity has NEVER gotten less intense. The way the scene is shot and primarily the music used makes it hit EVERY time.
Oh, hell yeah! Spoilers are awesome, actually.
The only time I *don’t* want people to spoil me is if I’m already invested in the story, because now I’m trying to solve it myself.
But, like… I got really bored of Harry Potter films by the sixth one until someone specifically told me that Snape will kill Dumbledore in it. It really surprised me, so I continued to watch just to see how and why it would happen.
At least, this example is the most memorable.
It's kinda hard for me to take a lot of the Prowler stuff seriously when 90% I'm busy laughing and poking fun at the little audio sting they gave him. Same with Miguel, who has it way worse, cuz he doesn't have an emotional death scene going into the final 3rd of the movie. 😂
My favorite type of Plot twist are the ones undoing the 1st plot twist thus resetting it back to the beginning like the 1st plot twist never happened. Like Tokyo ESP:
1. The premise is the Ark of the Covenant is opened. Some people near it got super power, some don't. The 1st main villain is a Magneto like figure claiming the the Ark unlocked their true potential & the future belong to the Esper/ the next step of human evolution
2. The 1st twist: He lied. The Ark gave them power not awaken it. And the power is mystical not genetic so their will not be a new humanity.
_ He's one of the archaeologists that discovered the Ark, but the rest of his team was killed by a mysterious organization that took the Ark. He lied because he need to gather enough man power for revenge
_ There are 3 hints he lied:
+ According to history the Ark had been opened a couple of time before. But no tribe new humanity descended from the legendary heroes
+ He claimed to build a new future but only gather & train people on the destructive aspect of their power. Nothing on how they are supposed to function in a Esper world
+ There is a power that can take away(not seal/cripple/destroy) their ESP. If the power come from them, this shouldn't be possible.
3. The 2nd twist: He lied. The Ark does unlock your potential and it is the dawn of the new age for the new humanity. What about the previous clue that this is not true? The manga is ending, who cares?
This is one of Red's better Trope Talks. I also enjoy her sub-set on the Five Man Band and its component members, Robots, Personifying Death, and Conservation of Ninjitsu.
An example if a good plot twist is in The Empire Strikes Back when Vader reveals he's Luke's father. You spent the entirety of A New Hope and the majority of Empire believing that Vader killed Anakin, so when you see it for the first time, it hits you like a ton of bricks to the face. And because the twist happens so late in the movie, you're not given time to process that you just got slammed with the mental equivalent of a ton of bricks to the face. Return of the Jedi keeps hitting you with emotional sucker punches.
When you go into Empire in future viewings, when Luke and Vader have their first duel, you're dreading the reveal the whole time. And you see the duel from Vader's perspective. He's toying with Luke because he's the superior duelist and force user and he knows it. Vader could have easily force choked Luke into unconsciousness and tossed him into the carbonite freezing vat, but he wanted to test his mettle. This makes their final duel in Jedi that much more emotionally hard-hitting, because now the lightsaber is in the other robot hand as it's Luke who's the superior duelist and force user.
Though, this one is such a classic, well known example that it falls in the same category as the plot twist of the sixth sense like Red mentioned in the video. Where it's practically baked in.
But that is less to do with how its written and more a consequence of suffering from your own success. And it doesn't ruin things at all if you know beforehand.
To what my interpretation of Paul Muadib is after about a dozen reads of the first book, I see it as a story where he tries to go on his “golden path” to avoid the horrors of the jihad in the future he sees, and he almost gets there, but then they kill his son, and that’s the point where he just says “Eff it, I’m gonna burn it all.”
(About 6:35) If we're talking about high school or college kids writing stories and we level that level of criticism at them, then yes it is "irrationally angry".
But when we talk about professional, multi-million, potentially multi-billion, dollar tv shows and movies, made by supposed "PrOfEsSiOnAlS" then no it the appropriate amount of Angry.
One of my favorite of her videos is Fate worse than Death, mostly for interesting examples of that trope. I also enjoy the Greatest Fear video for having a very interesting example... and also because it was sponsored by a podcast I'm obsessed with and I love the bit at the end they did for it.
Frankly, GOT's ending was bad because the D&D made an ending based off shitty and contrarian hot takes on reddit who "didn't want a predictable ending" (which, frankly, I think it became a thing among these morons because of 20+ years of waiting for the books, whereas that moronic contrarian sentiment wouldn't have festered if the books released more often).
Frankly, the above just made it so that the misogynists and classists let out their own biases show with their shitty and contrarian hot takes. Because note how any woman who wielded power in her own right in the books basically gets sidelines or is not allowed to become a proper monarch/have a long term position of power in her own right in the end even if their story is headed that way in the books (Daenerys, Arya, Arianne was completely written out, Asha was sidelined and ignored, Brienne was completely sidelined...). Note also how they cheered for born nobles and legitimate men were theorized to "win" but the bastard phobia came out on reddit.
Basically.... the audience members who write the reddit theories on reddit really let their bigoted flags fly and D&D listened to them, giving us a shit story ending, therefore destroying re-watchability.
The second Spider-Verse movie is indeed out and has been out for months
You should watch the "Those dang phones" episode. It's longer than an average trope, but there are so many great topics there that would probably make you talk for over an hour.
I feel like a potential explanation of Marvel's degraded writing over the years is that the people in charge kinda just lost interest. Burnt themselves out on the franchise, but because Disney is Disney, forced them to keep going anyway. So now we're stuck with flashes in the pan like Loki seasons 1 and 2 that are still great, but everything else they're putting out is just BLEGH.
I dunno if that's actually what happened, but it's a valid possibility that no one ever seems to think about or bring up.
The funny irony in Steven Universe is that Pearl went from...
serving her master/boss/owner to serving her master/boss/owner (but under a different identity and more romantic tension on Pearl's side).
She even spells it out in song at the start of the movie. Always at her boss's side.
I hope you eventually cover her other Halloween videos.
Definitely. Although I'm waiting till it's closer to Halloween for more of them.
GRRM apparently gave Miyazaki excellent fantasy characters for Elden Ring, and from what I've gathered he's not aware of where the demigods have gone after he handed them over to Fromsoft. In an interview before the game was released Miyazaki mentioned that his favorite of the demigods was...well...Rykard. Rykard used to be a normal guy, for a demigod. In-game, he allowed himself to be eaten by the god-devouring serpent and they fused. He's a giant snake-man. That was a tangent, but I'm saying two things: one, Fromsoft figured out that eldritch horror is fun, and two, I think GRRM would be far more interested and happy with what Fromsoft did with the characters he gave them than what happened to his GoT characters.
I think my favorite bit of Suspense is the Ciaphas Cain novels.
We know he will survive it all because we are literally reading his memoirs made long after the fact.
We know other certain people will also survive because they are mentioned after the fact.
The key is the how.
How do Cain survive a demon summoning ritual?
How do Cain manage to slip our of Tau controlled space?
How do Cain anything?
Here's an interesting tidbit: Game of Thrones' finale aired the exact same day that ANOTHER great show finished airing _its own_ narrative-shattering final season: Star Vs. the Forces of Evil!
Like GoT, its last seasons were spent destroying everything that made the previous seasons so great, only with several EXTRA horrors, such as the main characters knowingly causing an off-screen GENOCIDE because of a rash decision made in the last episode that had barely any foreshadowing, which was treated by the show as an overall happy ending. I'm not even kidding.
May 19, 2019 wasn't a particularly good day for us TV fans.
A few people named Patterson is so funny because of the amount of coauthors & ghostwriters he has, and this sounds stupid because I can't think of the right way to say what I'm thinking....
😁👍
6:02 Interesting point, though I may be misremembering, but if I remember correctly, Martin was heavily involved with the writing in seasons 1-4 and was consulted on a lot, hence why in those earlier seasons, there aren't many significant deviations from the books. There are some, and a few of them are not only pretty major, but also have problematic implications for the future of the story, but for the most part the first four seasons are very well adapted.
However, from season 5 onwards, Martin was no longer involved with the actual writing process, and it shows. Major rewrites of key plot threads, cutting some parts, expanding others, mass watering-down of extremely important events, and some major storylines even getting cut entirely. TBH, I suspect season 5 gets more flak than season 6 not due to season 6 being better-written, but simply because there is something excellent and well-written to compare against season 5, where 6 is mostly the showrunners' own creation based loosely on Martin's notes, and doesn't have to suffer as directly from the adaptation decisions of 5.
And, unsurprisingly, things snowball from there. Even if the writers had stuck to good writing practice instead of going "Ha-ha, gotcha!" the problems had just been mounting up, and the ending would likely have been, if not terrible, then at least pretty unsatisfying. But as it was, it was just a cascading series of "This didn't happen, so this doesn't work; we changed that, so we can't do this, etc".
Again, watch the Detail Diatribes on your own time, they are not good reaction material.
One fun retroactive twist I remember was Yuri on Ice's episode 10. I'm not going beyond that because I know some people don't want spoilers (I myself don't care), but it was a rather fun twist that just explained so much.
Red doesn't normally say if a trope is good or bad writing, just that it's a tool that can be implemented well or poorly. There is one exception to this: Fridging. Though it would make sense to probably watch the trope talks on Strong Female Characters and Mentors first. Oh, and Mary Sues are another Trope Talks where Red even goes into the history of the trope!
She also doesn't like grimdark (I think she just confuses grimderp for grimdark).
@@gokbay3057 She doesn't like it, but she doesn't call it a bad trope. She acknowledges that there are people who like the genre/feel and explains a bit about why, but she herself doesn't like it.
Definitely check out over the garden wall. It's this surreal quiet mini series and it is one of the only pieces of media that pulled off the "Its all a dream". Even if that's only one interpretation of the story
I always though that Quicksilver died because the writers couldn't handle having a speedster in the roster of heroes, same reason that other powerful character were stuck (Dr. Strange) or injured (Hulk) in the last fight of Endgame: can't really have suspense if you have someone who can resolve the issue without much effort.
The game SANABI has a great retroactive plot twist, and it works perfectly because the entire story was written with the twist in mind. And it gives you hints that someting just isnt right along the way
Also Nier, Nier automata, OG bioshock and katana zero all have good retroactive plot twists
If you want a Trope Talk that won't anger you, try Trope Talk: Dragons.
And this is the reason professional readers do not make good tv viewers... we expect serious story design and writing.
Except that TV shows absolutely can be that way too, it's just that that the industry is a bit of a mess in general. Also, deadlines really make things harder for tv than for books, as well as the fact you have to work with a large team of actors, cameramen, etc. when making movies.
Now contrast that with books that don't typically have deadlines and MAYBE have a group of professional editors, and yeah, you're going to get more competent books. I wouldn't throw tv under the bus like that though, there's tons out there to enjoy even if you have high standards as a reader. It makes the good shows all that easier to appreciate knowing what goes into making them.
@@BerserkerLukeso it could be, but it's not. So it isn't.
And there are exceptions, but it's the exceptions that proves the rule instead.
@@janematthews9087 I don't know how you could have possibly got that out of what I said, unless you're just trying to be a book snob and write off tv shows entirely. I'm not talking about one in a million shows, just that TV is not going to have quite the same consistency as books are, because they're more difficult to make. I tried to get that across with the "there are tons out there" bit. And I think it's pretty stupid to buy into "it's not quite as good as X, therefore Y is worthless", if that's the angle you're taking.
Wait, what? Since when it's the point of the God-Emperor of Dune? It was "Paul couldn't walk the walk and be terrible ENOUGH, but I can and will, because such is the human nature and cyclical cycle of cyclic history cycle."
Also, weird things.
Yeah....I had a similar experience with Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Heard about the big moment at the end beforehand, then some time after, I saw the movie. While knowing ahead of time, it still hit me like a truck. Good shiz.
Watch spiderman into the spiderverse and It's sequel now, the are Masterpieces, everyone is already waiting for the third movie to close the trilogy at the end of this year.
Finally found a way to force chrome to let me minimizes the videos of this Channel, put them on a playlist after any video from another Channel, minimizes said video so once it ends it Will start playing the one from this Channel still minimized
The Steven Universe continuation is out btw. It's called Steven Universe Future
One of my favorite things recently, is being able to say I’m from the 19 hundreds..😆 1998, but it still counts..
Superior Spider-Man was pretty cool. Bite me.
29:03 That's Superior Spiderman not Ultimate Spiderman (also it is Peter's body in SSM).
Pretty sure that's not even a twist, it is just established in the beginning of the story cause it happens and then Peter (in Doc Ock's body) dies.
Speaking of Romeo and Juliet she did a whole trope talk on Doomed Heroes.
4:00 I would really recommend giving the books another go. Martin is IMO one of the best character writers in fantasy, and whilst there are certainly plenty of unlikable POV characters, there are a few who are generally likeable, and plenty in that wonderful grey area.
Thanks for this.
😁
Do you know the story of Bionicle? There's a twist in the few last years of it's run that is pretty essential to it's world that takes place almost all the way near the beginning of the story. I think the twist was executed very well, so well in fact that it's only of the only stories that I would ever recommend seeing in release order and not chronologically.
Yeah, I find it pretty sad that my last-minute short stories that I would make during elementary school would probably fit in just fine by Disney standards. The writers for Antman Quantumania literally wrote the story as they were making the movie.
I agree good plot twists makes a movie more interesting regardless if you know or not, however I do not want my first viewing to be changed from outside influence. I want to experience a movie with little to no information at first and then pay attention to details after, i lose a lot of my personal interest if i'm unable to get a blind viewing first.
38:12 It WAS the worst, then came Avengers End Game, with Big spectacle, a lot of tears, and a lot of plot baggage the future movies IGNORE.
Like the Blip. Half the population suddenly vanished (and lets not talk about the amount of deaths resulted from accidents of people suddenly disappearing, and the number of people that most assuredly minecrafted themselves after) and they were gone for Years, life went on, and then suddenly they all reappeared.
How does this affect the world? Marvel post End Game says IT DOES'T! Its' all fine.
Its' just like pre-Infinity War, don't worry about it, there are no consequences in my Female lead Marvel movies!
(Yes they are All Female lead despite the names. Bait and Switch for the bankruptcy, baby!)
But Don't worry, the Next Avengers will most assuredly take that title away from End Game 😆😭
4:25 (whispers) Starbucks cameo.
10:05 (Amy Lee) ~Bid my blood to run, before I come undone. Save me from the nothing I've become!~
47:38 Pretty sure you and every other reactor was saying "F**k" during their intros for a while, to avoid TH-cam's blatant misinterpretation of COPPA.
No, Red I FULLY expected Daenerys to lose her mind and commit mass murder, because everything I knew about Daenerys immediately following someone she cares about being murdered in front of/dying for/betraying her, told me that was what was going to happen. And in the span of just the last two seasons, she loses ALL of her dothraki (the first group of people to accept her after she was smuggled to Pentos with her brother), most of her unsullied (the first group of people to choose to follow her, without any prior sense of obligation), two of her three dragons (the closest thing to children she'll ever have), her oldest friend and advisor in Jorah Mormont, her closest friend and advisor in Missandei, and oh, yeah, she finds out she's NOT actually the last Targaryen, nor is she even the rightful heir to the throne she's spent her entire life being told was the birthright of her brother, and by extension, her. Anybody who DIDN'T think she was going to go insane was either lying, blind or naive.
The issue wasn't her going insane but it happening too fast (also everything else, especially in relation to the Lannister Twins).
I know very little of Marvel and I will say the Deadpool movies are top tier.
It teeters a bit into "Comedy just for comedy" but it does have some really good moments. The final battle in the first film was super well done.
That's because Deadpool being a comedy actually makes sense for his character and history. He shouldn't be fully comedic all the time of course, as he is a tragic character beneath the cheery facade and some of the best Deadpool stories showcase this, but Deadpool as a movie is very blatantly intentionally, and purposefully a comedy, and it would be regardless of other marvel movies. It was, after all, owned by 20th century fox and was part of the X-Men series (even if it was highly disconnected from the complex continuity of those movies), which never had the comedy for comedy's sake problem of the MCU.
I just realized thay the video is formated in a way my phone can see it without it having like dead space on the sides
I think its 21:9
Thank you so much!!!
Matpat actually figure out game of throne ending before it happened,still think you would enjoy ghoulinfuschia murder drone intermission it set between episode 4 and 5 and actually fits
You should watch spiderverse! Deadpool might be a good watch for a faithful fun adaptation
the second and third spiderverse movies were once a single movie so even though part two came out recently three isn't far behind and was coming out march but due to the writers strike its unknown when it will come out
17:13 your not old grandpa
Thank you young'un. 👴
You mentioned reacting to small mammal on a big adventure I'd highly recommend it it's one of my OSP favorites also I'd recommending to Jellos In stars and time video
OH NO, ITS M. NIGHT SHAMAMALAMA ..... SAMA...... KUHHHNNN
Steven Universe i will say does have a happy (if bittersweet) ending. Start with Coach Steven and take it from there through all the seasons, then the movie, then Future. The front half of season 1 is... terribly episodic.
If you don’t mind doing a top 10 list anime America has done a top 10 plot twists in anime
If the 2020s are the ‘20s was 1900-1910 the noughties/ ‘00s
It’s out
What was this about
Is it game of thrones
Um, you realize you made this video almost 3 times longer than the original??? That's overdoing it a bit.
Can you go back to the old video format? The black bars are just bad.
Episode 8 is one of the best star wars, shut up
To each there own. Just because I had issues with the movie doesn't mean you liking it is any less valid. 😊👍
No lol. Maybe a good movie but not good Star Wars.
(I mean I wouldn't necessarily call it a good movie either. Rose's line about "saving what we love instead of destroying what we hate" was idiotic because the former was already what Finn was trying to do, Hyperspace Ram while really pretty begs the question of why nobody has done this in the thousands of years hyperdrives existed etc.)
If you get mad at bad writing, then do NOT watch Star Wars: the acolyte. Either watch a review of it like necrotic or critical drinker dunking on it so you know how other people feel the same
m’: D