@@bhslfdhenope both show & book is consistent in one thing and that is Vhagar "almost" reach the size of Balerion at its peak size also Vhagar size at the start of Conquest is the same size as Caraxes its 52 years old at the start of Conquest while Caraxes is 60+ years old at the start of Dance. further for you to understand base in Fire & Blood Vhagar is 52 yrs old at the start of conquest why because it died at the age of 182 at 130 AC or 130 years after the conquest era do Arithematic 182 - 130 = 52 while Meraxes is stated as almost century when its Died probably 96-98 so its 86-88 at start of conquest while Balerion is 126 years old at the start of conquest and died in 94 AC at the aged of 220 again do arithematic 126 + 94 = 220 thats basically the aged the 3 og Targaryen Dragon at the start of Conquest ( Balerion - 126 & Meraxes - 86/88 & Vhagar - 52 ) hope to help why Meraxes is Bigger than Vhagar in the Start because Vhagar is Youngest of the 3 OG Targaryen Dragon of the Conquest
people dont know about rge dragons of the first age of middle earth, they were insanely massive and ancalagon the black was so big that it destriyed 3 volcanoes when it fell!
Ive always thought a unspoken reason why balerion was so huge was because he was a dragon born in old valyria and so got that initial big magic boost, something all dragons of westeros born dragons never got I also think another big factor in the dragons getting smaller and weaker is inbreading depression, assuming all the dragons come from the conquest dragons they had a very small gene pool so they where probably doomed before the dance, the war just speeded things up
no, genetic diversity was at its peak? take daenerys 3 dragons who were assumedly some of thee last eggs ever laid, grew large & strong, caraxes and meleys (Siblings of drogon etc) were some of the most unique ever? meleys aerodynamic & robust, whereas caraxes was slim, and long
@@Minisode. Firstly Danny's dragons are a special case cuz I believe there's some magic fuckery going on with them, Secondly caraxes is a mutant for example he can't roar properly Third assuming balerion, meraxes and vhagar aren't related and thier kids are say, quick silver, silverwing, vermithor, dreamfyre and sheep stealer that means the next generation of dragons are going to be inbread as their perants are all half siblings at best, and of course if the conquest dragons are rested this issue can only be worse
@@stormerjc9493we don’t know if genetics would come into play. As far as we know dragons can lay eggs without a partner and can change from male to female and vice Versa. How did Vhagar and Meraxes get so big then? They were never in old valaryia.
@@RsDv5 well what your saying is just as true as what I'm saying, nothing is completely concrete, I'm just going of my theory of genetics cuz I think it makes the most sense, I think dragons might be able to change gender but still need a Breading pair to have vertile eggs and there's just too many examples of of dragons having inbreading issues for me to not think something is up, caraxes being the biggest sign of this As for meraxes and vhagar, idk how long it took them to get to thier size but balerion from what I can see got really big really fast which is what I meant by the magic boost, meraxes and vhagar are both born from the first 4 dragons the targaryen took over as such are good strong healthy dragons that where allowed freedom and weren't inbread which is why they got so big
Inbreeding doesn't seem all that detrimental in this universe. Atleast not if you have dragonblood in your veins. Might be different in the case of actual dragons ofc.
Dragons in ASoIaF appear to have _"indeterminate growth."_ A condition in which certain animals grow rapidly from a young age, and continue growing after reaching adulthood although at a slower pace. For Drogon's case, he's able to grow rapidly due to having the freedom to move around and feed as much as he pleases. But his growth rate will slow down once he's fully matured.
Genetic charatteristics and age, but even the place where they live is an important factor, since the ones that growed in the dragon cave were smaller while the ones growed in a open place made them very big
Syrax grows slow mostly because of the budget. Like producers admitted, in some scenes in the 2nd season they used motion pictures of Syrax from the 1st season, because it was cheaper (didn't have to make new ones).
At the time, that was congruent with what was thought based on the books. But those books had the same "what was thought by a character from the main series asoiaf era" unreliable narration. Since then we learned the name of the last dragon, Morning, and that it was large enough to take a rider and potentially threaten a keep by 136 AC. So its skull is obviously not among the smallest at the end of the throne room, with the little apple sized barely-more-than-a-hatchling skulls that non-Targaryens from ~300 AC seem to think represent the last and smallest dragons. The show appears set to cut Morning though, so the HBO lore may differ yet again here. Potentially setting up to make Tywin right for HBO purposes.
Yaknow in valyria i bet with the addition of magic being their origin, I bet they were much bigger at the prime of the kingdom and the records are lost since the doom.
my theory is because of blood magic, vhagar and balerion took thousands of lives during the dornish wars and the conquest, thats why they grew so large, so either the more sacrificed to them or the more kills they have the larger they can grow.
in the show he will be i guess, we saw at least his head in a few clips now and he is Vhagar level, since the show has to safe budget, we see it with Syrax, so i guess they won't give us a third dragon that big
@@mbwizax87 why not? With 7 years he was almost as big as meleys who is about 80. How big do you think was balerion with 7? Surely not grown up like drogon
I feel like the dragons could only get as big as cannibal or balerion seeing as how gravity exists it would be hard for anything larger then that to move unless they were aquatic such as how the blue whale can get massive because it doesn’t need to support its own weight
The cannibal is the biggest wild dragon. Silverwing and Vermithor were bigger than him. Just because he’s rumoured to be old doesn’t mean he’s big. He’s still able to fit into caves and only eats hatchlings.
@@J_ads2000 where is Vhagar just chilling btw. Cause the show already said she is too big for the pit. Kings landing also seems packed with buildings if you look at the maps so where does Vhagar sleep? And does Aemond have to ride out on horse to mount Vhagar?
Cannibal isnt that BIG!!! please stop. He is said to be "the biggest of the WILD dragons" not the biggest. Also the allegations that he was born before Balerion make no sense date-size wise etc... and there are others who said he was born at the reign of Jaehaerys (But people never take this one as valid as the other one for some strange reason..). He is smaller than Vhagar for sure, as Vhagar is explicitly said to be the biggest dragon at the time and Vermithor the second biggest. Cannibal most likely was the size of Silverwing or Dreamfyre at best.
Remember the Targaryen's were supposedly a mid-ranking family in Valyria. It was probable that the most powerful families had more, larger and even more powerful dragons than even Balerion and Vhagar. Remember Tyrion said dragons don't do well in captivity so they got smaller and smaller while confined to the Dragonpit. The ones who lived outside of the pit seemed to grow larger.
Imagine living in old Valyria with dragons swarming around. Especially if they were even bigger than the ones in westeros. I wonder how they managed to feed those beasts. like, how much does a dragon in Balerions size eat in a day? blows my mind.
@@Hnke90 The Valyrian empire controlled all of Essos basically, they had at they disposal countless numbers of live stock and animals, also slaves and war enemies.
Ok so here is my opinion. Size of a dragon is more conected to its surrounding than gender or age. If we look at Australia where there is a fence across coninent we can se that kangaroos on one side of fence are bigger, stronger ad grow faster because of constant predator threat. I think that dragons like Drogon from GoT are bigger and grow faster because of the fact that they are more wild than most dragons of HotD. There is also the matter of max size, just because they have no max size fixed doesn't mean the can grow to the size of 747, the older they get the slower they grow. Having that in mid i think that dragons that are kept in pit wil never grow to the size of Aegon 3 dragons because it is not beneficial to them to be that big, on the other hand wild dragons like cannibal should be the size of Vhegar even if they are a bit ypunger because of constat threat from other dragons.
I still think that Drogons Egg is from Balerion and Cannibal, and that the reason Cannibal attacked mall dragons and rookeries was because Balerion gave away Cannibals egg
@@maxximus6418 Yeah because the GOT and the HOTD dragons have trash durability and can be killed easily by arrows, Meanwhile smaug casually taking arrows like he didn't fell a bit.
@@dragonfan-v5l Isnt smaug only able to be killed by specially made arrows imbued with magic or something like that? He would stomp on every single thing the GOT world could throw at him
@@lights_utopia1130 Not really, it was an arrow yes but deadly beacuse it was shot in a place where he was injured before and was a weak spot with no scales to protect him.
@@dragonfan-v5lnot to pull a 🤓 ☝️, but in the books dragons cannot be killed by scorpion bolts let alone arrows, the show just decided to have Euron 360 no scope dragons with scorpion bolts through their impenetrable scales, the only conventional way to kill them is to get extremely lucky with scorpion bolt to the eye which has only happened once in asoiaf history.
Caraxes is deformed so we don't even know what breed he is. And no, it's not well known which is which. But we can suspect that syrax is the horse type; seasmoke, Drogon etc. are the dino type; and Meleys might be the wolf type.
@@SonderDAzeX Who says that? Is that a fan theory because I've never heard of eagles being in the mix. I'm getting the feeling that someone other than George is making stuff up.
@@stuffynosepatrol A wyvern is a species cousin to dragons although they are called dragons in GoT they wouldnt be "True" Dragons that have four legs and a pair of wings like some in our world. That said I still believe if they can breath fire than can be called dragons in the end. Mainly because in other media wyverns cant generally breath fire.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I am ready to see a live action Balerion...just look how large his head was in comparison to Vhagar. Dude had to be MASSIVE
I think they were about the same size, so Balerion at the conquest as big as vhagar during the dance
Some estimates give Balerion 130-162 meters while Vhagar is given 60-80 meters
@@bhslfdhenope both show & book is consistent in one thing and that is Vhagar "almost" reach the size of Balerion at its peak size also Vhagar size at the start of Conquest is the same size as Caraxes its 52 years old at the start of Conquest while Caraxes is 60+ years old at the start of Dance.
further for you to understand base in Fire & Blood Vhagar is 52 yrs old at the start of conquest why because it died at the age of 182 at 130 AC or 130 years after the conquest era do Arithematic 182 - 130 = 52 while Meraxes is stated as almost century when its Died probably 96-98 so its 86-88 at start of conquest while Balerion is 126 years old at the start of conquest and died in 94 AC at the aged of 220 again do arithematic 126 + 94 = 220 thats basically the aged the 3 og Targaryen Dragon at the start of Conquest ( Balerion - 126 & Meraxes - 86/88 & Vhagar - 52 ) hope to help why Meraxes is Bigger than Vhagar in the Start because Vhagar is Youngest of the 3 OG Targaryen Dragon of the Conquest
In concept art, you needed a whole tower just to mount his saddle, which was pretty much a larger version of an elephant saddle.
people dont know about rge dragons of the first age of middle earth, they were insanely massive and ancalagon the black was so big that it destriyed 3 volcanoes when it fell!
Ive always thought a unspoken reason why balerion was so huge was because he was a dragon born in old valyria and so got that initial big magic boost, something all dragons of westeros born dragons never got
I also think another big factor in the dragons getting smaller and weaker is inbreading depression, assuming all the dragons come from the conquest dragons they had a very small gene pool so they where probably doomed before the dance, the war just speeded things up
no, genetic diversity was at its peak? take daenerys 3 dragons who were assumedly some of thee last eggs ever laid, grew large & strong, caraxes and meleys (Siblings of drogon etc) were some of the most unique ever? meleys aerodynamic & robust, whereas caraxes was slim, and long
@@Minisode. Firstly Danny's dragons are a special case cuz I believe there's some magic fuckery going on with them,
Secondly caraxes is a mutant for example he can't roar properly
Third assuming balerion, meraxes and vhagar aren't related and thier kids are say, quick silver, silverwing, vermithor, dreamfyre and sheep stealer that means the next generation of dragons are going to be inbread as their perants are all half siblings at best, and of course if the conquest dragons are rested this issue can only be worse
@@stormerjc9493we don’t know if genetics would come into play. As far as we know dragons can lay eggs without a partner and can change from male to female and vice Versa.
How did Vhagar and Meraxes get so big then? They were never in old valaryia.
@@RsDv5 well what your saying is just as true as what I'm saying, nothing is completely concrete, I'm just going of my theory of genetics cuz I think it makes the most sense, I think dragons might be able to change gender but still need a Breading pair to have vertile eggs and there's just too many examples of of dragons having inbreading issues for me to not think something is up, caraxes being the biggest sign of this
As for meraxes and vhagar, idk how long it took them to get to thier size but balerion from what I can see got really big really fast which is what I meant by the magic boost, meraxes and vhagar are both born from the first 4 dragons the targaryen took over as such are good strong healthy dragons that where allowed freedom and weren't inbread which is why they got so big
Inbreeding doesn't seem all that detrimental in this universe. Atleast not if you have dragonblood in your veins. Might be different in the case of actual dragons ofc.
Dragons in ASoIaF appear to have _"indeterminate growth."_ A condition in which certain animals grow rapidly from a young age, and continue growing after reaching adulthood although at a slower pace.
For Drogon's case, he's able to grow rapidly due to having the freedom to move around and feed as much as he pleases. But his growth rate will slow down once he's fully matured.
Melleys is the most good looking dragon ever
Literally. Besides Seasmoke and Dreamfyre that both resemble Dany’s dragons. Meleys is the most intriguing of all dragons
She really was beautiful ❤️😢
Daemons Chinese dragon is the coolest.
Daemons Chinese dragon is the coolest.
Meleys looks so badass
Genetic charatteristics and age, but even the place where they live is an important factor, since the ones that growed in the dragon cave were smaller while the ones growed in a open place made them very big
Syrax grows slow mostly because of the budget. Like producers admitted, in some scenes in the 2nd season they used motion pictures of Syrax from the 1st season, because it was cheaper (didn't have to make new ones).
Tywin said the last dragons head had the size of an apple
At the time, that was congruent with what was thought based on the books. But those books had the same "what was thought by a character from the main series asoiaf era" unreliable narration. Since then we learned the name of the last dragon, Morning, and that it was large enough to take a rider and potentially threaten a keep by 136 AC. So its skull is obviously not among the smallest at the end of the throne room, with the little apple sized barely-more-than-a-hatchling skulls that non-Targaryens from ~300 AC seem to think represent the last and smallest dragons.
The show appears set to cut Morning though, so the HBO lore may differ yet again here. Potentially setting up to make Tywin right for HBO purposes.
Syrax im sure would mess up some soldiers but against other dragons i think she would end up just a snack
Yaknow in valyria i bet with the addition of magic being their origin, I bet they were much bigger at the prime of the kingdom and the records are lost since the doom.
0:58
sunfyre looking like the eclipse
Maybe the Cannibal doesn't like other dragons because Balerion somehow bit off his tail or attacked him while he was without a rider after Aegon
my theory is because of blood magic, vhagar and balerion took thousands of lives during the dornish wars and the conquest, thats why they grew so large, so either the more sacrificed to them or the more kills they have the larger they can grow.
Is Vermithir really ”way larger” than Silverwing though?
in the show he will be i guess, we saw at least his head in a few clips now and he is Vhagar level, since the show has to safe budget, we see it with Syrax, so i guess they won't give us a third dragon that big
Drogon will become the biggest dragon when he is old
Not even close
@@mbwizax87 why not? With 7 years he was almost as big as meleys who is about 80. How big do you think was balerion with 7? Surely not grown up like drogon
@@bhslfdheIt's only in the show, in the book, he's as tall as Arrax of memories
Correct, Drogon is born from magic, which is why he and Rhaegal and Viserion all grow faster than other dragon
@@atalantereinedastria1656 "in the book" they are still in Meereen. The size Drogon was in the show when he got attacked in the fighting pit.
At Bernard and Pom…lol maaad comparison 😹😹
I think Sundyr would've reached a size bigger than Balerion.
Him and Tessarion yes. Maybe Vermax as well. Those three were growing very fast in the book.
I feel like the dragons could only get as big as cannibal or balerion seeing as how gravity exists it would be hard for anything larger then that to move unless they were aquatic such as how the blue whale can get massive because it doesn’t need to support its own weight
The cannibal is the biggest wild dragon. Silverwing and Vermithor were bigger than him. Just because he’s rumoured to be old doesn’t mean he’s big. He’s still able to fit into caves and only eats hatchlings.
@@J_ads2000 where is Vhagar just chilling btw. Cause the show already said she is too big for the pit. Kings landing also seems packed with buildings if you look at the maps so where does Vhagar sleep? And does Aemond have to ride out on horse to mount Vhagar?
If we're being realistic no dragon should be able to fly because they're not anatomically designed to do so
@@addictedtochocolate920 how are they not designed to do so? What are the wings for?
Cannibal isnt that BIG!!! please stop. He is said to be "the biggest of the WILD dragons" not the biggest. Also the allegations that he was born before Balerion make no sense date-size wise etc... and there are others who said he was born at the reign of Jaehaerys (But people never take this one as valid as the other one for some strange reason..). He is smaller than Vhagar for sure, as Vhagar is explicitly said to be the biggest dragon at the time and Vermithor the second biggest. Cannibal most likely was the size of Silverwing or Dreamfyre at best.
Remember the Targaryen's were supposedly a mid-ranking family in Valyria. It was probable that the most powerful families had more, larger and even more powerful dragons than even Balerion and Vhagar. Remember Tyrion said dragons don't do well in captivity so they got smaller and smaller while confined to the Dragonpit. The ones who lived outside of the pit seemed to grow larger.
The idea that captivity affect growth only come from the show.
@@ericborder5272 It also comes from reality with real animals.
Imagine living in old Valyria with dragons swarming around. Especially if they were even bigger than the ones in westeros. I wonder how they managed to feed those beasts. like, how much does a dragon in Balerions size eat in a day? blows my mind.
@@Hnke90 The Valyrian empire controlled all of Essos basically, they had at they disposal countless numbers of live stock and animals, also slaves and war enemies.
@@illidankratos True. They probably sent for countless of ships with dragonfood each week
Bro, f all upcoming spin offs and continuing hotdogs, I wanna see a series with aegon the conquer and the black dread.
Seasmoke looked bigger than Syrax when they were on the beach.
Ok so here is my opinion. Size of a dragon is more conected to its surrounding than gender or age. If we look at Australia where there is a fence across coninent we can se that kangaroos on one side of fence are bigger, stronger ad grow faster because of constant predator threat.
I think that dragons like Drogon from GoT are bigger and grow faster because of the fact that they are more wild than most dragons of HotD. There is also the matter of max size, just because they have no max size fixed doesn't mean the can grow to the size of 747, the older they get the slower they grow. Having that in mid i think that dragons that are kept in pit wil never grow to the size of Aegon 3 dragons because it is not beneficial to them to be that big, on the other hand wild dragons like cannibal should be the size of Vhegar even if they are a bit ypunger because of constat threat from other dragons.
there is no way meleys is bigger than caraxes.
caraxes is very thin. Its like comparing a malnourished 6'2 lanky guy to a bulked big muscle average height man.
@@rexibhazoboa7097 we are not comparing volumes here. The length of body and wings matters.
I still think that Drogons Egg is from Balerion and Cannibal, and that the reason Cannibal attacked mall dragons and rookeries was because Balerion gave away Cannibals egg
So cannibal Is a female?
What type of fan fiction is this-
This pains me. Just know that your thoughts have caused actual pain to me.
Amount of Cannibal related theories is just so hillarious there is no particular conclusive evidence of its existence or its size
then by this logic cannibal has to be bigger than vhagar right?
No matter how cool they are, they're still Smaug victims.
Probably even Balerion would be a Smaug victim
@@maxximus6418 Yeah because the GOT and the HOTD dragons have trash durability and can be killed easily by arrows, Meanwhile smaug casually taking arrows like he didn't fell a bit.
@@dragonfan-v5l Isnt smaug only able to be killed by specially made arrows imbued with magic or something like that? He would stomp on every single thing the GOT world could throw at him
@@lights_utopia1130 Not really, it was an arrow yes but deadly beacuse it was shot in a place where he was injured before and was a weak spot with no scales to protect him.
@@dragonfan-v5lnot to pull a 🤓 ☝️, but in the books dragons cannot be killed by scorpion bolts let alone arrows, the show just decided to have Euron 360 no scope dragons with scorpion bolts through their impenetrable scales, the only conventional way to kill them is to get extremely lucky with scorpion bolt to the eye which has only happened once in asoiaf history.
why?
it is freaking known
syrax - horse
caraxes - wolf
seasmoke - dino
most of them are dinos
Caraxes is deformed so we don't even know what breed he is. And no, it's not well known which is which. But we can suspect that syrax is the horse type; seasmoke, Drogon etc. are the dino type; and Meleys might be the wolf type.
none of them looks like they have a horse skull tbh
@@kalilasqary4090 It has to do with the skull.
@@Hnke90 syrax is said to be a mix of horse/eagle, so sometimes they dont fully fit into each category
@@SonderDAzeX Who says that? Is that a fan theory because I've never heard of eagles being in the mix. I'm getting the feeling that someone other than George is making stuff up.
you said caraxes is male???? but in the shows daemon collects caraxes eggs🤔🤨
No he collects eggs from Syrax
Those are Syraxes eggs, and Caraxes and Syrax are believed to have mated with each other
They are all wyverns not dragons
They are dragons
In our world, yes. In Westeros, no.
If they breath fire they're a dragon.
@@J_ads2000not even in our world because a wyvern is a type or dragon in our world.
@@stuffynosepatrol A wyvern is a species cousin to dragons although they are called dragons in GoT they wouldnt be "True" Dragons that have four legs and a pair of wings like some in our world. That said I still believe if they can breath fire than can be called dragons in the end. Mainly because in other media wyverns cant generally breath fire.