The problems with Motte and Bailey CASTLES
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- The Motte and Bailey castle was on of the first castle types to arise historically but its design eventually fell out of use for these reasons.
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The biggest problem was no anti-air defense against dragons.
Ha ha! :)
You could modify the Keep on the Motte to be some sort of medieval flak tower.
actually, they had archers and ballistas
@@florinaschilean6143 the ballista would do damage but the dragon would target them if it were intelligent and the archers would be nearly useless, nearly. If they could find a weak spot in the dragons scales then they would be effectful but if they can't, they might as well be throwing pebbles.
@@jesusismy...3498 well, we all know that the best defense against a dragon would be a knight jumping from a gryphon, killing the dragonrider and cutting the dragon's neck afterwards, but i was talking only about fixed defense
Put all your eggs in one basket, but put that basket inside another, bigger basket.
A basket with machicolations.
Then the eggs can fight off other eggs who breach the first basket, brilliant!
@Dragon50275 then they start to dress in skirts and speak aussie
.. But what if the baskets have handles on top, lol.
@@AlphaOmegaXIII it's a metaphor stupid
One must remember that the normans were foreign conquerrors in england. Because of that rebellions were common. If you are building a castle on captured land, do you want to live in the same fortification with subjucated people whose language you don't know? External motte is defencible against even the treacherous saxons living in your castle.
Seems rather tight. You've got your lord, the garrison... Sure, you could fit a couple of slaves in there, but that's not much of a rebellion is it (unless it's your garrison but that seems unlikely). A rebellion you're thinking of would have been raids by groups of people from the OUTSIDE and in that case, just like Shad said; storm the bailey, grab the motte, done.
Personally, I have a much easier time imagining an M&B as a farm in an early agricultural era, designed to keep everything in, everything else out and maybe fend off some random raiders, rather than a military outpost of a foreign occupying force. In the case of a farm in a barely settled region you mostly watch over your property - and since there's not a lot of you, it makes sense to have everything in one spot, easily monitored by a single from your house, rather than all around you.
@@smffofts there is the risk of treason. A servant might open the gate for threats from outside. With motte that risk can be protected against.
@@pekkamakela2566 A servant can also sneak into the masters' quarters at night and murder them in their sleep and they can do that inside a stone castle as well.
I would argue that if anything, an M&B construction encourages a final "peaceful" resolution for raids; should the raiders break in, you go to the motte. Whatever you've got up there is probably not worth the hassle of another attack and there's enough of a consolation prize in the bailey (cattle and the like, most of what you own really). They loot, leave and you go and rebuild.
On the other hand, every warrior/settler culture I'm aware of had built completely different structures, from the Roman daily camp to wooden keeps in colonial times. Heck, didn't the Normans themselves build completely standard stone castles when they did so?
I thought Motte and Bailey castles were an Anglo-Saxon style of castle and died out after the Normans took over.
agree ,the lord didn't want to be around the peasants,
I remember a past video where you talked about these castles and It's so nice to see a follow up. It's cool how you keep the channel balanced between, fantasy, cultural analysis, and pure history.
Love how your comment has more likes than shads
The design suggests that the castle owners didn't trust their support staff. The early years of the Norman occupation would have been very scary for the invaders. Remember you may also have to defend yourself (the lord) from your new subjects (potential traitors).
Andrew Jackson yep the saxons did launch multiple rebellions against the Normans which Is one of the reason that the motte and Bailey was built as it was an easy way to defend an area and they were relatively quickly built especially compared to stone castles in France at the time
Untrue, this point was addressed in the video. Proper castles with the keep inside the main castle walls are better defended against potential threats within the bailey, as you can more easily attack the bailey with arrows.
@@ParaSpite I agree with you, but I can also see how if I were invading England I would FEEL safer further away from my new, resentful subjects, even if that wasn't reality. It may be that some Norman lords felt safe being further away from their subjects, even if their advisors told them otherwise. After all, who's going to argue with a lord?
@@ParaSpite Obviously motte & bailey tech was good enough to withstand native attacks & establish stable dominance over England, until they could upgrade to stone, and cut back on the number of castles required.
This is is my second time watching this video after a year or so and I finally realized that logical conclusion too. It is very much a structure to oppress and subjugate the town from the separated and fortified castle. Yes it probably could be a workable overall defense against and outside group, but it is mainly to overlook and subjugate the town populace. A sort of pop culture glance at this concept is William Wallace's village in the movie Braveheart.
Stone existed back then.. wow I learnt something new
i thought everyone knew stone was invented in 1857 by abraham lincoln
all over the world the most ancient structure are the biggest and most advanced almost without exception on every continent that I know of.. Except maybe north america. From giza to the ones in peru to stonehenge to ankor watt I'm not a great speller. Maybe not always the largest but the size of the stones and the high tecch way they are put together amazing. But your not supposed to know this.. You might figure out there was a worldwide flood when the fountains of the deep broke open and the firmament collapsed. That the ancient world was just like the modern just different tech paths. Like that device from greece is just the simplest well know one. But its all over in reality.
Uranium existed back then too.
But its rather obvious in context that hes referring to the technology that revolves around working with it.
What a moronic comment
Don't forget when William the Conquer took over England he needed to make a statement to the population that the Normans where here to stay and rising up is futile. If a peasant who lives in a wattle and dorb hut sees a tall structure like a Bailey being built it has a intimidation factor. Like you said naturally over time it evolves into stone like the White tower in London. Plus the Normans had to build these Motte and Bailey's very fast in order to get their foot hold and they even brought pre fabricated fortifications over from Normandy for the landing site.
Yeah, they were designed to be built quickly so the design flaws with them isn't that strange.
@@bengale9977 Exactly. And with time and experience they change to help remove the flaws. Like moving the Keep inside the main walls and improving the gatehouse
@@vectorbrony3473 kinda a roman esq conquest. In the way ceasar would build forts and even encircle and entire city with a wall during his conquests of gaul
Can't trust the saxon peasant shoeing the horse in the stable. Motte & Bailey is the design I would pick if everyone I needed to hire would slit my throat if they had a chance.
Exactly, and if intimidation doesn't work... murder most of them. The harrowing of the north was an atrocity that doesn't get enough attention.
The problem is a lack of...
MACHICOLATIONS!!!!
Ah man u beat me to it by several hours. Haha.
Dapper Daddy's Haberdashery Early bird catches the castle my dude
Not enough murder ‘oles or barbicans!
Machiloations aren't that common in castles... someone has to say it...
@@HertzRico lies, foul lies!
Mott and Bailey thinking: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Separate the buildings.
Shad's thinking: Put most of your eggs one basket. Then take a bigger basket, put inside the smaller basket. and fill out the remaining eggs.
Get it??? 😎
Then add a murder hole to the basket.
'Put all your eggs in one basket and REALLY watch that basket!'
Put all of your eggs in a basket ... That has meticulations!!!!!!
Shad thinking: put your eggs in a wooden basket in the straw basket so that when the straw burns we have cooked eggs.
By the way towers flank walls horizontally so we don't need stinking machiculations unless it's a gate.
@@80krauser
These castles really look as if the Lord did not trust his people and he had to separate from them for security or keep an eye on them. The more I think about it the more I think that these castles are to defend against an assault from the outside, just as against the attack of their own people.
Shad Fact: Shad is in negotiations to publish a new book, '1001 Ways to Slay a Dragon'. This non-fictional book gives you a detailed analysis of the dragon ND the ways to exploit it's weaknesses. Also comes with a bonus dragon bone stock recipe for the 'Eat What You Kill' fans out there.
But did you stop to consider... what about Drag- oh wait, that's the whole purpose of the book. :o
Are you hyperactive? Mr. minister, youtuber, writer and swordfighter guy.
Where can a person go to find a list of all of your published works?
I am going to get this book. I am going to write my own book. There will be a dragon in it. And I will use the information in this book to have my heroes realistically kill it.
I'll take 10!
In Ireland the Normans threw up a motte and Bailey style castle largely in timber quickly to gain a foot hold in the newly conquered lands.
I mean real quick; like a simple defensive pallasade about the tents in the first few days so your not camping in the open followed by a motte within a matter of weeks to a month so you have a defensible place to retreat to when under serious attack.
From here you next build some more substantial buildings in the Bailey to get you out of the tent and to house your animals and stores. Now you are more established you start into farming / expanding and later as things settle down you think about a stone built castle. A castle is going to take 2 + years to build just for a simple tower and keep , and you might deside : actually 2 miles away is a better spot but you only know that now after living here a year or two. Also you need a workforce to build the stone castle and you need specialists to get on board for a castle. The first invaders including the men at arms would have mucked in to get the motte and Bailey up as quick as possible on first arrival.
The key thing you should have emphasized more is that motte and Bailey are put up quick, probably Bailey first around the camp then the motte.
Motte and bailey influence on castle design is intetesting also.
Great answer. You can't pile the earth in the middle because that's where you're camping.
GREAT ADV!CE!!!
YOU'RE MASTER!!!
Hi, I have been reading up on German castles a bit lately. I found that in German architecture motte-and-bailey seems to not ever having been considered "a thing". The common build archetype seems to be rather the "Hoehenburg", which more closely resembles what you described as "just put the entire castle on a motte.... that is a hill".
An interesting strategical problem with Hoehenburgen, one that you haven't touched upon afaik, but that seems to have been quite central in German planning for the placement of castles was the well. Without a source of water all castles are inherently vulnerable to sieges. A cistern can elevate the problem to an extent, but water in a cistern can foul, and even more likely, run out, if a siege is extended.
From what I have read, the most important building in a Hoehenburg was indeed neither the walls nor the gates nor anything else, but the well itself, and it was often enough also the most expensive one to build. Which makes a lot of sense, if you have to dig down to ground water level not from a plain field, but from the top of a mountain.
The possibility of being even able to dig such a well or not, seems to have been of primary importance for the decision whether a given location was even considered viable for the construction of a castle.
OK, I must self-correct, motte-and-bailey WERE common for a time amongst lower nobility, and would just be called Motte or Hausberg in German. I also dug up the english translations for Hoehenburg, it is just hill castle. With the hilltop castle or even rock castle being the most defensible variant, but rarely built, especially for the problem of well construction.
The most common type was the spur castle, as it was almost as defensible as the hilltop castle, but much easier to provide with water, as it was lower in elevation.
Ridge castles are a variant, that is interesting, as they were often build at least in pairs to help defend each other.
And finally hillside castles, which were hard to defend, but easy to provide with water. A lot of them can be found as toll collection sites along important waterways like the Rhine.
Stefan, What you say ist only partly correct. The northern parts of Germany are Part of a vast Plains area stretching out from the Netherlands into Poland. ("Norddeutsche Tiefebene") In these areas there are practically no elevations high enough for effektive Defender structures. But there are lots of bogs, fenns, marches and swampy riversides. Typical castles in these Region were placed where the swampy surroundings could defend them, most often on dry sandy hillnoses in the corner of two rivers meeting. The castles themselves used earth walls and palisades as well as trenches that completed and multiplied the Perimeter as necessary. Central structures could be, but did Not necessarily have to, Ring walls, this Kind of Castle you will also find with The Danes (Trelleborg etc) or slavic placed (f.e. Grossraden). The Motte and Bailey ist a Standartised Form of These Castle that seems to derive from The Western parts of The great northern Plains, Maybe influenced by frisian fortification types - they placed their whole settlements on artificial hills on Islands, in marches and in coastal areas that were Prone to flooding duringg Storm or even high tide.
EDIT: ah, you found It out by yourself in The meantime. Just know that those castles we're Not only a Thing of lower nobility in The north. Before brickwork came into extensive use in The 11th/12th century, stones for buildings were extremely rare to come by in that areas. The danish castles I mention were even royal. (Harald Blaatand)
If you go further east the classic motte and baily design is rare, hill forts with or without central tower inside are more prominent and they usually look like an Audi logo with interlocked rings more like those later castles he's shown. And as in Germany they were most often built in swampy areas.
@@stefanb6539 actually Höhenburg is more correctly translated with "Castle on heights" or elevated castle. Hill is Hügel in German. With Höhe being just height, so the castle type being elevated just a few meters up to being on a proper mountain.
Sorry, as native german I kinda get freaked out by those small things ^^
@@18947ful "Höhenburg" is foremost an archeological/architectural term, and the equivalent term in english happens to be "hill castle". Your attempts at etymology don't matter, as the correct translation of a scientific term is determined by the actual use in the corresponding scientific communities. So, check twice, before you freak out.
"stone did exist back then"
Well thank goodness.
I'm sitting here thinking about how to design a castle in my story and what do I find in my notifications? A Shad video talking about a type of castle.
I like how it was a video about the EXACT type of castle I was thinking of for my own story.
Just make sure you add lots of machiculations.
And don't forget the Deus Ex Machina at the end. OH! *whispering * And a love triangle
@@Greideren Terrible Writing Advice is that you?
Oh shack its funny that you mention this because in the starting adventure for D&D 5e Storm kings thunder. their actually is a motte and baily castle and that very situation you mentioned in the beginning of the video actually happened to my group when we played it once we retreated to the keep the orcs and later the bandits were able to use the lower section as protection aginst us.
Thank you, I'm an aspiring fantasy fiction writer and all this castle advice on accuracy and efficiency REALLY HELPS. Huge fan of your channel and can't wait for more
I have an important question.
Can I have a pet dragon inside my castle?
Only if you call him, *Tad Cooper!!*
Be shure to not name him alduin slyer of worlds.
@@catwithinternet7111 isn't his title, Eater of worlds?
I prefer black cats or direwolves.
Not unless you are a jarl.
BUT WHAT ABOUT large firebreathing lizards capable of flight with the tendency to attack humanoids for the purpose of sustenance and/or defense. Are they any good to eat? Can they be tamed? Do they even exist? These questions need answering dang it!
Liked the video. Interesting stuff. Did you research it or was it one of those things that you just thought about and it made sense?
They need to be cooked in wildfire.
I love how it all makes sence - motte&bailey has flaws, so you put the whole bailey on a motte and add MACHICOLATIOOOOOONZAH!!!!!
And poof - you have a later medieval castle.
Lovely video, as always. :)
(okay, so now - how to make a castle where my dragon can live?)
I can imagine a video on how to accommodate a dragon
Conquer Dragon's Reach in Skyrim, it already come with an area to keep your pet dragon, hench it's name. 😁
Thats all good Shad but WHAT ABOUT DRAGONNNNSSS???!
Hey Shad, this is probably unrelated to the video (haven't watched it yet), but I just recently started narrating a tabletop rpg for some of my friends. I wanted to thank you and your brother for providing an excellent framework for role-playing with Cogent Roleplay. It was necessary since I made an original magic system and most systems out there don't allow that. For this I introduced a fourth primary attribute, MAG (stands for magical prowess); it works really well and we're having heaps of fun.
Edit: spelling
You could have called this video What About the Mott and Bailey Castle.
But What About Best Medieval Weapons for 4-armed creatures?!
Come on Shad! You said you would do it on the snake-people video!
It's on the list ^_^
But what about dragons?
@@casthelion416
What weapons would dragons use?
Would that allow them to keep a shield on both sides? 😉
Shadiversity OMG HE RESPONDED GUYS!! Is finally happening!!!! :O
Pfffft. You left out the largest problem: dragons. Do you REALLY think that a steep incline will stop a dragon? Those bastards can fly! Jeez, Shad, I thought you were supposed to be good at this.
Line the walls with ballista and enjoy your fresh dragon meat
@@vonfaustien3957 HMMMMMMM
Moat and motte. Not confusing at all. :P
Also called a Fosse, or ditch as in the Roman roads the Fosse Way as it was a road with ditches either side...like all Roman Roads ...
Possibly the first iteration of a motte was the ditch, but you'd pile the excavated dirt inside the circle, to give the keep extra height. From there, the concept would've evolved to building an actual miniature hill inside.
But still, if you wanted to get something up in as few days as possible, those simplest mottes would be the ones leaving the least archaeological evidence of all.
In that scenario, it's likely motte & moat have a common origin. As Shad said, moats can be water filled, or dry. It was probably hard to keep water out of moats in England anyway.
Motte: "It's over Bailey, I have the High Ground"
Know what I like about Shad? Opinions.
You watch a documentary* that's 100% sure of themselves only to be proven otherwise by another that goes into more research in that one detail. The most annoying are new documentaries that state something as fact that has been proven false years prior.
With Shad, he makes it clear that as per his current knowledge, this is what he thinks. It's not carved in stone and can change in time if new discoveries are made. He's also willing to face up to mistakes rather than brush them off.
I respect this channel. Good work, Shad.
*note: Documentaries are used as an example. I'm not sure if Shad's videos are categorized as such.
There is no requirement got documentaries to be accurate
@@jasonskeans3327 Sadly
I see only one probleme here that matter . It doesn't have MACHICOLATIIIIIIOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNSSSS
New studio looks great Shad !!
CASTLES! I love these discussions.
I think the good thing about them is that a force can erect a Mott and Bailey quite fast, all you need is a natural hill to work with and some trees nearby, and wham instant overnight castle. Get 400 men working on it and you can fortify an area of tactical importance in short notice. Unlike a stone castle that requires time.
Mott and bailey castles were mainly made of a certain type of material.
What kind of material? Wood.
What is wood very good at, unless treated? Burning. What burns? Fire.
What do dragons often employ offensively?
*Fire.*
Oof
CHURCHES! CHURCHES!
excellent video, shad. but that got me thinking: what if the castle was made exclusively out of....
(whispers) machicolations?
you put the ...machicolations... at the top of a hill, then you put more ...machicolations... on top of those
MACHICO-- i mean ...machicolations... and then, and then...
where was i going with this? i should probably go eat.
I now understand why the motte and baliy castle stoped being used but it’s still one of my favorite castles
I think the motte and bailey castle makes sense in a context of relatively low resources and constant insecurity. If you have to face some kind of standing army, it's a terrible design, because it isn't good to sustain a long siege. But if you expect only small bands of marauders, who will attack fast and move away immediately after the first assault, it's very relevant. The motte isn't a good place to live in, but at least you'll save your life. The really secure place is small and relatively inexpensive. Of course, you might need to sacrifice the bailey, but you know that you can't protect everything.
You choose a better design when you have more resources.
Exactly. Keeps would have got more luxurious if you suppressed resistance factions & made a go of being a Norman Baron. I think Shad covers that sort of transition elsewhere, discussing rooms in keeps, evolution of castles, castle v palace etc.
Shad's temporary studio is lit AF.
"Stone didn't exist back then." Shadivesity 2018
*2 seconds into a video by a TH-camr I've never watched*
Me: "Oh, duh, just put all of it on the hill"
*end of video*
"oh...nice!"
Subbed
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I remember reading something years ago that said one of the things that lead to the move away from motte and bailey castles was the move to stone construction. A lot of the mottes were man-made hills and when they went to build stone keeps atop them, they found they weren't strong enough to support the weight.
The counter to this is that there are many mottes that have stone castles built on them, perhaps these were later upgrades that could be done once the soil had settled.
@@shadiversity Sure, they didn't all have problems. Some are on natural hills and some hills were just made better. But if you know there's a chance you might have problems, are you going to risk it or ditch the man made hill entirely?
Thing is - the motte and baily must have been an improvement over the previous defensive system. If one motte and baily were to fail, nobody else would have done it. If the style proliferated, it must have worked against the tactics of the time.
Tactics and strategies change over the years. Shoulder-to-shoulder volley fire ended (basically) during the War Between The States. The Maginot Line showed the weakness of fixed fortifications. Tech is part of that.
So one could argue that motte and baily was the shiznit for its time....until time and tech had its say.
Shad, is that the Wheel of Time series on your bookshelf?!?! You have excellent taste. I know it's more difficult, but I would love to see/hear your insights into the authenticity and practicality of works like WoT that aren't necessarily made into movies.
Oh my God. Another WOT fan? Welcome my brother.
May the dragon ride once more upon the winds of time.
The wind was not the beginning, but it was a beginning...
Yet another awesome video, keep it up, Shad!
loved your work, but really loved this as i lived near one when i was growing up (or whats left of it) in Chipping Ongar Essex England, unfortunately it is privately owned. But was really nice to learn more about it and why it went out of use.
A lot of motte and bailey issues you mention were defeated historically by having no backs to the towers nearest the bailey and using geographical obstruction and location to cover the rear, allowing the faster resupply of bushels of arrows and what not up an open tower (and saving half the materials of building a full tower) so that if taken the motte would serve as a poor staging ground to push the assault. Given that solitary towers were quite unpleasant to siege such as the siege of St Germanus d'Auxerre where a few monks held off an army by just being annoying, peeing out of windows and throwing the odd rotten turnip. I propose that once they've taken the town they'd probably be happy with whatever plunder they got, call it a win, and hopefully sod off.
Edit: You're thinking about this the wrong way around. You're assuming you can fight back, and retake the bailey, or retake lost ground. You're not SMS'ing your mates, or calling 000. You're done. Once the bailey falls you are now just trying not to be brutally murdered. And given the choke point of access to the motte and what withering fire and attrition can do to a sieging army your aim isn't to 'retake' your land, but to not die and hopefully be too much cost to finish off. A bailey, like a keep, isn't your last rally point. It's your last please don't kill me bro point.
"Stone existed back then" must be the greatest ou- of-context quote
Why put a Motte in the Baily? Because then the Lord has to literally live WITH the peasants. He would be mocked by all the other lords.
This vid shows (more than not) in a simple way how detailed castle defense is (simply). Like myself when I 1st looked at this castle I said "nice" lol & it is nice but the man himself pointed out a huge thing that I had yet to realize. Now this def isn't as nice as I thot. Great vid brother & great eye on this downside of the castle
My first impression was that the bailey´s wall wasnt suppossed to be defended, that it was just a delaying obstacle in order to allow retreating into the motte. And the motte itself should be used to survive a raid, not to resist a siege.
As many pointed out, this was a normad thing, so I consider two possiblilities: 1) either the whole combo wasnt for defence in the proper sense, being the bailey a way to keep people in one place tying them to the land and the motte a display of power; or 2) its a setup designed to avoid defeat in detail or surprises on the garrison from within. Maybe a combination of the two.
Not Dragon Proof
There's a recreation of a motte and bailey castle in Stansted mountfichet. Worth a look. They were much better then believed.
So... The Motte is moot? 🤔
In the family the back yard was always referred to as the back bailey, probably as we are Welsh and fortifications are commonly placed ,what remains of a bailey is on a near by hill top and a hill fort on another though I tend to think more to do with having visuals from hill to hill plus the sun on you all day.
Praise the Gods of the Eightfold path!
#Horusdidnothingwrong ;)
Who let the heretic in?
Horus was a fine commander, but that's all there to it. In other news, emperor is still a dick.
Ahh, I see your a man of culture as well
Corfe castle 6:46 +which was also shown in this video as the plan view of sectioned bailey) was slighted after the English civil war partly because it was too hard to capture and the government didn't want their enemies to have defensive strongholds
A good trebusche can topple that log castle.
Surely there must be an economic factor here somewhere. And a time factor as well. A Motte and Bailey is most often made from timber (with some stone keeps in the later part of the period) and earthworks. That doesn't strike me as an expensive caste compared to what was built later on in the middle ages. Also a Motte and Bailey can be constructed with local ressources in most places while the massive castles of later times often had to transport building materials over long distances.
And a wooden caste can probably be built in much shorter time than an equivalent stone construction (note Guédelon Castle: A small castle that has been building for over 20 years now). So when the Normans for example needed a lot of small castles to occupy England they could build Motte and Bailey castles in many places in a relatively short span of years. And of course siege technology evolved over time. A Motte and Bailey castle was probably good enough in 11th century England but no so much later on (but that is of course your point).
There is a parallel in the Roman Empire when talking permanent garrisons. The Romans often started with wooden fortifications and later on upgraded to stone when needed and possible.
Excellent description.
errr if they were made out of wood, then why didnt they try to burn it?
you can't effectively burn wood that's been treated, and you have to assume if you're going to make a defensive structure at least eliminate it's biggest weakness, there probably were cases of wooden fortifications being burnt down, but more permanent (expected to last many years) like castles would certainly have been treated.
Wood is not as easy to burn as Hollywood would have you believe.
Try? Yes, but the archers/defenders probably would give you trouble while you try to stack wood next to the wall timbers.
Wrong about stone castles. Romans had stone castles. Brochs also stone. Thousands of years old.
Finally a MnB video, been waiting for one lol
Yeah, but if you put the tower inside the bailey then the lord has to smell the filthy peasants 😩
Nicely explained, i was never sure why moats were a thing, when you think about ways to climb the walls without a moat and then with a moat it makes a lot of sense. Without realizing, i always assumed to take a castle you'd break down the walls or try to infiltrate unnoticed and open the gate. Although i also knew about just piling up dirt to make a slope higher than the walls and starving the people in the castle, my imagination doesn't pay much mind to ladders since it's not flashy.
Right now i think i'm starting to overestimate moats the same way i imagine swords to be light as feathers and plate armor to be tougher than the walls of a building, thanks Shad.
Robert the Bruce took most of the castles he slighted by sneaking in.
Moats make it harder to get siege towers up to the walls, but they also make tunneling/undermining more difficult.
Many forts throughout history were defeated by paying someone inside to open the gates.
Awesome new decor my friend! Thanks for inspiring my humble minecraft creations with your vast knowledge!
I understand your arguments. But why was this design used to begin with?
Probably to protect the lord of the keep, more than the castle itself.
@Aeon Underhand Joking? I hope so. The Romans came to Britain, stayed for a while, and left several hundred years before the Norman conquest and the construction of the first M&B castle.
Some of Shad's arguments are flawed because in most cases the Motte was not as distinct from the bailey as the example given. However, to answer your question, I'll use Scholagladiatoria's Matt Easton's favourite word: context. M&B castles were used because they were quick and easy to build and were easily defended against the likely enemy immediately after the Norman conquest. The Normans defeated King Harold. His high ranking followers were either killed in battle, or, as was common in those days, swore fealty to the new king. The common people probably cared little for who was in charge of them as long as they were left to get on with their lives and feed their families. Who, therefore, was going to attack the castle? Possibly a raid from a hostile neighbouring lord (the Normans were a warlike lot), or a few disaffected locals led by a Saxon warrior who had not sworn fealty. Raids, small rebellions, and guerrillas were the context, rather than massive organised armies. The new castle had to bee quick to build, look the part as a symbol of authority, and be strong enough to deter or resist the expected level of threat. As the new order settled, the early M&B castles were developed and improved, incorporating stronger and more complex defences.
The Bailey was the traditional germanic village/farm. Then they added the Motte to it
@Aeon Underhand Aha! That makes sense. :) Iron age hill forts came before the Romans. They were big fortified enclosures on top of hills. There is clear evidence of some of them being stormed and taken by the Romans. After the Romans, in what we used to call the dark ages, some of the old hill forts were recolonised with some repairs to the defences. They also made new, much smaller, hill forts for a while. The dark ages blended into the early mediaeval. In England, a key turning point was the year of the 3 battles (1066) and the Norman invasion. The normans built the M&B castles.
Hey Shad, nice video! I was wondering how they prevented and dealt with fire in cities and villages in medieval times. Can you make a video about this topic?
They didn't, knock over a few candles and you have the entirety of London on fire... Ok, they did have counter measures with acqueducts and a lot of buckets but the whole city design was overall flawed in its concept and to solve that they ended up banning wooden and jutting buildings, they were like a nice and airy stack of wood and hay where the fire would rise up on the sides and find even more wood to burn, not the best.
Shad sure gives a lot of tips on how to get settled and fight in a bygone age. Clearly he knows something we don’t - that we’ll soon be plunged into the iron age, and in his wisdom he realised he has a much greater chance of success in educating us in the ways of this age than actually getting anyone to believe it’s happening.
A massive solar storm could send the world there for a while.
As soon as I win the lottery. I'm buying a 2 floor under ground bunker under neath my castle.
What if the attackers threw machicolations at it?
“Castles made out of stone appeared after the Norman conquest” Alesia 52 B.C entire city made out of stone.
Not a castle, was a walled city.
Whats wrong with them you ask good sir?
How are you going to stop dragons with that good sir?
First you ram vertical spiked poles in regular distances in the ground of your bailey. At least that will prevent dragons from landing there.
One could also consider the possibility of the bailey being constructed first to defend a town or a village, with the motte and keep built later next to the village to aid in its defense. This video makes the assumption that most castles were built from scratch rather than being evolutions of an existing town's defensive needs.
The Motte and Bailey seem to follow that evolution . Their may be many other way this evolved over time. The motte may of been first as a form of watch tower/ spot. then they add the bailey then every thing else. It a lot of work for them to make something like that . That serve only one function. The other way seem more likely as a mean to cut back on building a tall tower
Perhaps you are overthinking the purpose of early motte and bailey castles. As siege warfare doctrines evolved and armies became far more efficient at sieges, I think it's natural that castles started to take on the almost purely defensive aspect as you move through the medieval period. At the beginning however, besides being a defensive fortification, castles seemed to have been more of a status symbol, a way of "planting the flag" so to speak on occupied territory. In this way I think motte and bailey castles have much in common with iron age hillforts, which often it appears were not purely defensive structures, but were a kind of dick measuring contest within the aristocracy. "My hill fort's bigger than yours!"
I just ate a bacon and egg sandwich, and it was delightful.
Minecraft players here looking for inspiration 😂
Thanks for helping me with my home work! 🤘🏽
What about old Roman forts? Are there examples of those being repurposed by the successors to Roman power, especially in England?
Yes, Cardiff castle, Portchester, another i forget the name of, were turned into Norman castles, guessing the Saxon Burghs would have used roman fortifications also
*Loads up Lords of the Realm 2 again
"A Motte and Bailey"
Ah yes, the universe is at peace.
How do you decide what to make videos on? I would imagine its super easy to hit “writer’s block” making this genre of content!
I am sure he has a list of topics to pick from if he ever runs out off stuff to think off.
There is a very long list that is continually being added to, don't worry, Shad always has something to say
I don't claim to know much, if anything about the intricacies of medieval history. But I don't find Shad's video on this subject to be particularly convincing. The main phallacy I find with his arguments is that he is putting the motte and bailey in the setting of (more likely) late medieval history and warfare as a whole. I think you have to realise that early medieval warfare was much more dominated by what could be described as raiding parties rather then full on armies. I find this video over-generalizes medieval warfare as if it were a single thing, in this instance its comparing late medieval warfare and tactics to that of the early medieval age. I'm not trying to bash Shad if anyone is thinking that, he just hasn't properly convinced me of his arguments thats all.
I think that's the whole point of this video though. Motte and Bailey castles were effective for their time, but they fell out of use because warfare changed, and larger armies with better tactics became more commonplace.
Why... why is this reccomended?
Shad,
Having your inset pictures of castles in a picture frame was a genius move. loved it.
Hey Shad, I dont know if youve heard of this guy, hes been doing fantasy/medieval style craft videos for years, since the beginning of TH-cam! His channal is EpicFantasy, and he deserves serious credit, hes been pumping these videos out like crazy, and I reall think you should check him out and maybe ask him for a collab. I dont mean to be rude, but he looks older in his vids, and id hate him to "retire" for the lack of a better term, because he doesnt have a large audience. Its sad that hes been going at this on 6 plus years, and he only gets around 5 comments on a video! Id really appreciate if you checked him out!
Dude, first of all, congrats on the new house and new studio! I'm digging the new look.
Secondly, do we ever see modern fantasy put a new spin on the Mott and Bailey design? It seems like I remember you doing a video on one of the RPG games that had the main keep separated from the rest of the fortified town in a similar fashion to the Mott and Bailey design. I can't remember which one.
In any event, these historical castle videos are among my favorites. You do an awesome job of explaining the who, why, and how when it comes to medieval castle design. Thanks, and keep up the good work!
how dare you speak of me like this.. disgusting!!
Hey Shad! I'd love if you made a combat/battle review of scenes in the Hobbit movies, particularly the battle of five armies. (You sorta already did something almost similar with LOTR).
have you seen the construction RTS game Castle Story? You design the castles block by block and your little RTS workers build them. Curious about your opinion on this game.
You don't nec. build a single complete castle, more like castle walls and whatnot at the chokepoints... but on the other hand it really does involve a lot of the kind of strategic designs you go over about castles (or use to critique fictional castles)
Nice rant and what you say is true. However, apart from the motte and bailey castles built specifically as garrisons after the conquest of Britain, these castles were normally upgrades to existing settlements and that dictated the nature of the design. In Germany for example, these castles usually began as an effort to fortify an existing farm with a palisade as a defence against raiders. Later on they would add a moat, a simple gate house, bigger walls, etc. and that was often where things ended. If fortification continued they added the motte and tower which were usually the last phase of the fortification effort. The motte and tower could often not be located inside the bailey since the bailey was a cordon around an already existing cluster of buildings and the fortifications were an afterthought. It's also worth keeping in mind that nobody lived in the towers (I'm sure you know that but a lot of people don't), they were more akin to a modern panic room, a refuge of last resort where valuable goods were kept under guard and where you could flee in an emergency. These castles were defences against raiders and weren't meant to withstand lengthy sieges although it turned out to be a lot harder to breach or set the towers on fire than first impressions would suggest. Finally, your model of a bailey with a gate house is actually a dead ringer for many Slavic forts in Eastern Germany dating to the 9th to13th centuries right down to the circular shape.
Any chance of reviews of real castles? Having grown up in Scotland, it’d be interesting to hear your take on a few of my local favourites, like Caerlaverock, Threave or Cardoness.
This has been insightful. I’m writing a book that takes place in late AngloSaxon time but retold by a 12 century monk. I’m very glad I came across this video
I know you're trying to lengthen your video, but you're talking in circles..... it's so frustrating because it feels like my time is being wasted 😑
(Another Off-Topic SUGGESTION): Please consider doing a recreation of QEI's last royal residence, Richmand Palace.
From what I've seen it was different in scope and design: devoid of a motte / moat, no keep, no bailey, no ramparts, nor defensive walls. Among my friends I have always argued that Richmand was never a palace built with defense in mind. Rather, I would surmise it was built as a place of quiet respite and retreat. Made with a lot of glass all around the perimeter. I would also go on to argue that with that much glass -- which would have let in a lot of cold -- that this WOULD NOT have been a place Elizabeth would have visited in the winter months, on a regular basis. What do you think?
Suggestion: look up “Gate: Thus the Japanese Self-Defense Force Fought There” & “Monster Musume” for Modern Medieval comparisons.
Might want to have a Modern Warfare Historian help you out with gearing up Mythical Creatures for Modern Warfare.
But what about DRAGONS???
Shad, do you think Dragonstone from asoiaf is "dragon-proof" considering that it was built by Targaryens during the reign of Valyria.
If not could you find or design such a fortress? Assuming a GoT like dragon: 15m long, 27m wingspan, can breath fire for up to 40 seconds total that melts steel and degrades stone(around C*1300 hot), cruising speed of 120-150km/h and diving at twice that fast. Several dragons may be involved in a siege.
What features would be key to endure such an assault? Could it be a dual purpose fortress able to repel both conventional ground attack and dragons or would it be desgined as anti-aerial only situated in a highly inaccessible place like mountaines. For instance I find it quite amusing that the Eyrie of the Arynns in asoiaf allowed a mature dragon to land in a yard thus turning it in a potential dragon-base - situated on top of a mountaine(very hard to access by foot, never been breached by conventional assault in its history) in the middle of the country(same travel time to every corner of the Vale).
I WAS PROMISED MACHICOLATIONS!!!
still love the explanations and the attention to details
seems your videos are getting shorter though, or is that just me?
Well but there was a historical context:
Motte - clean handsome Norman nobility
Bailey - dirty ugly Saxon peasants
Also, the goal was to throw them up quickly as to secure the newly conquested land, and castle-building evolved constantly and would peak relatively long time after, so it's a little like comparing early firearms to an AR15.
So i guess, in the future we will not ask "What about Dragons?" anymore. No, we will ask "What about Motts and Baileys?"....
Still have a hard time to incorporate Dragon Machicolations and Crenelations into that one sentence. Stop making my life so difficult, Shad!
I live in Trenčín and our castle is also built in that "modern" way upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Tren%C4%8Diansky_hrad.jpg
You Europeans are so lucky,all those castles dotted around. All I got is the Alamo☹
And they got their butts kicked so bad there is really nothing left TOO look at. If it didnt have signs,you'd think it was just some random old building. Infact I guess it could be,I have no idea its exact location🤔Huuuumm......
Oh and,good stuff👍
You should really challenge a friend (or even do it yourself) to make a castle in your 3d modelling program, and then look at it and Honorguard to see which one would win in a war/siege. Maybe do a rating system where you get, say, 8/10 for gatehouses and 8/10 for keeps while your friend gets 10/10 for gatehouses and 7/10 for keeps and so your friend wins (because the totals of 17/20>16/20) or something like that.
Those are WHEEL OF TIME books on Shad's shelf! I love WOT! Would you ever do a review of a WOT fortification? Maybe the Stone of Tear? Perhaps there is not enough images/info for an in depth look. Maybe after the WOT show airs? Would love that.
It's funny you should mention that about an attacking force being able to use the bailey as a staging platform to take the keep; I actually discovered this on my own when playing an old computer strategy game called "Lords of the Realm 2", and that IS a strategy that I use to take a motte & bailey castle whenever I have a lot of archers in my attacking force. So, obviously, SIERRA did their homework on this one, and it makes a pretty good simulation of what a castle is capable of. Thanks, SIERRA, and thank you, Shad!