From what I understand, in the early middle ages, Justinian's reconquest utterly destroyed italy, and took centuries to recover its former population and productive capacity.
I think there is a lot of truth in that, although the areas that were hit the hardest were in the south and center of Italy, which might be why northern Italy ended up being the birthing ground for the Renaissance.
More than that is that the South was hit more by the Arabs and was divided up to the 11th century, after that Naples grew in size as did other cities, it was not that bad.
I would say that the Spanish/Habsburg rule of Naples and Sicily also damaged their economic prosperity in the Early Modern period. The Spanish tended to be more in favor of extracting wealth rather than building up a tax base or any form of economic prosperity, as was done in the colonies and even their home land.
I was suspecting there was a climate shift, found a few web pages that confirmed my suspicion, and then found your video, which made it clear that this was a VERY broad phenomenon. We tend to assume that all things have remained constant “since the beginning,” including climate, borders, political and religious systems, etc. - and that is how they are supposed to be. History makes so much more sense if we realize that climate fluctuates, and what is better conditions in the North looks like a heat wave and drought closer to the equator. I’ve been looking for a list of your videos in chronological order by topic, to supplement the history classes I’m taking this semester.So far the closest I get is playlists.
Sure, if Joseph Tainter is correct, and the peasant farmers really did need to give up 25%-33% of their crops as their tax burden, then yes, the collapse of Rome was a better opportunity for them, but without the security of the Roman military, it is unlikely they could safely survive without some form of protection from somebody. If you believe that the core of civilization is based upon education, literacy, and better standards of living, then, according to Bryan Ward Perkins, the archaeological evidence points to a complete and total collapse as all of those things disappeared from the record. If you use shipwrecks as a proxy for trade and commerce, then according to PARKER, A.J. (1992), as compared to a peak in the 1st Century A.D., trade dropped 11% by the 2nd century, 44% by the 3rd, and 70% by the 4th. Thats a recession, a depression, and then a panic and total collapse of trade and commerce, long before the actual fall in the 5th Century. I would have to believe that a total collapse of commerce had a significant effect on the economy, but misunderstood or unacknowledged at the time. Its also interesting to note that this shipwreck data is in direct sync with the lead sample data from the Greenland ice cores, which has also been used as a proxy for industry and mining of metals and minting of new coins. Again, none of this continued after the fall of Rome, and would not come back to the same levels for another 1000 years or so. If that's not a Dark Age, I don't know what is... Great video.
In Germany this view has become known as the "middle ages filter" as film documentaries tend to shift to colouring in sepia/ash tones when they start their litanies about the supposed evils of the "middle ages". It's clear that there's a lot of projection going on, just from checking these documentaries for facts. One would expect the anglozone to be most behind due to their historical infusion in imperialism since early modernity, which is where the actual christian-monarchical totalitarism and wars happened.
Thersites, I really really love your videos. Best ancient history on TH-cam. I get that there's widely differing views on this issue (personally, I agree with Gibbon and LOVED reading his book). And I do get that everyone has a point in each their own arguments. And I appreciate your forbearance in this discussion, and how you presented everyone's views as fairly as possible. Please pardon me for saying this, however. How much of the contemporary "Those so-called 'Dark Ages' weren't all THAT bad!!" reflects current political ideas around culture, art, political unity, and economic stability? Gibbon et al had QUITE different ideas about all that than those guys in the 70s, who were possibly influenced by more postmodern notions, and each of their biases could very well have affected their vision of the period.
As a historian of Unitarianism, I find it fascinating and revolutionary to consider that our theology might extend back, through Arian barbarians, to the earliest establishment years of Christianity.
“All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”
Actually the Romans borrowed all those from the Etruscans and all those facilities were more used in the so called barbarian world than we asume. The Romans were just greedier and poorer this is why they started the empire.
During this period, there were major advances in the field of agricultural technology, which enabled increased crop yields, particularly in northern Europe.
With regard to the early years of the Middle Ages wasn't there a large volcanic eruption sometime around 536AD which may have literally darkened the skies in various geographic areas around the world which subsequently led to reduced sunlight, crop failures, pestilence, famine, diseases developing into plagues? After climatic conditions became more favorable the difficult aspect to me at least is understanding how society was organized in Western Europe in the immediate aftermath of Roman Imperial Administration. In the year 1000 let's say people for the most part are tied to localized agriculturally based manors held by localized strongmen ( I call them Caudillos) who are themselves in service to a higher lord like a King or Duke. Ok, so right before this development of Fuedal society how did most people live day to day? Did individual families own small portions of land to farm and/or raise cattle? Did successor states in Western Europe begin to start minting their own coins and rebuild roads and transport infrastructure to restart transport potential enabling regional trade and commerce? How did people become classified into different stratified social classes of Nobles, Clergy, Warriors, Artisans, and Laborers? What did they have signs posted on trees proclaming open tryouts for knights? Finally, how the xxxx did Western Europe begin economic take-off initially? Remember reading that Charlemagne, who was trying to get things going again asked a couple of Jewish merchants at the time for advice in developing commercial trading relationships with the more economically developed Byzantine and Islamic areas. The merchants politely asked Charlemagne what he had to offer the Eastern areas in commercial trade and prudently supressed their impulse to laugh in Charlemagnes face!!!
If literacy declines it declines, right? Indeed meanwhile there are „scholars“ arguing that literacy isnt of any importance. „Culture“ being simply a specific way of life. All these ways being of equal „value“.
From what I understand, in the early middle ages, Justinian's reconquest utterly destroyed italy, and took centuries to recover its former population and productive capacity.
I think there is a lot of truth in that, although the areas that were hit the hardest were in the south and center of Italy, which might be why northern Italy ended up being the birthing ground for the Renaissance.
More than that is that the South was hit more by the Arabs and was divided up to the 11th century, after that Naples grew in size as did other cities, it was not that bad.
@@g-rexsaurus794 sisily was porporous not dark ok deal with that
@@ahmedsaeed6667 Sicily was porporous? What?
I would say that the Spanish/Habsburg rule of Naples and Sicily also damaged their economic prosperity in the Early Modern period. The Spanish tended to be more in favor of extracting wealth rather than building up a tax base or any form of economic prosperity, as was done in the colonies and even their home land.
I was suspecting there was a climate shift, found a few web pages that confirmed my suspicion, and then found your video, which made it clear that this was a VERY broad phenomenon. We tend to assume that all things have remained constant “since the beginning,” including climate, borders, political and religious systems, etc. - and that is how they are supposed to be.
History makes so much more sense if we realize that climate fluctuates, and what is better conditions in the North looks like a heat wave and drought closer to the equator.
I’ve been looking for a list of your videos in chronological order by topic, to supplement the history classes I’m taking this semester.So far the closest I get is playlists.
Hi Carol, I have playlists in chronological order by topic for all of the things that I cover on my channel.
I think the Dark Ages are fascinating and needed to be explored (you’re one of the best Channels for this, thank you🙏). Like Game of Thrones
Sure, if Joseph Tainter is correct, and the peasant farmers really did need to give up 25%-33% of their crops as their tax burden, then yes, the collapse of Rome was a better opportunity for them, but without the security of the Roman military, it is unlikely they could safely survive without some form of protection from somebody. If you believe that the core of civilization is based upon education, literacy, and better standards of living, then, according to Bryan Ward Perkins, the archaeological evidence points to a complete and total collapse as all of those things disappeared from the record.
If you use shipwrecks as a proxy for trade and commerce, then according to PARKER, A.J. (1992), as compared to a peak in the 1st Century A.D., trade dropped 11% by the 2nd century, 44% by the 3rd, and 70% by the 4th. Thats a recession, a depression, and then a panic and total collapse of trade and commerce, long before the actual fall in the 5th Century. I would have to believe that a total collapse of commerce had a significant effect on the economy, but misunderstood or unacknowledged at the time. Its also interesting to note that this shipwreck data is in direct sync with the lead sample data from the Greenland ice cores, which has also been used as a proxy for industry and mining of metals and minting of new coins. Again, none of this continued after the fall of Rome, and would not come back to the same levels for another 1000 years or so. If that's not a Dark Age, I don't know what is...
Great video.
In Germany this view has become known as the "middle ages filter" as film documentaries tend to shift to colouring in sepia/ash tones when they start their litanies about the supposed evils of the "middle ages". It's clear that there's a lot of projection going on, just from checking these documentaries for facts. One would expect the anglozone to be most behind due to their historical infusion in imperialism since early modernity, which is where the actual christian-monarchical totalitarism and wars happened.
Thersites, I really really love your videos. Best ancient history on TH-cam. I get that there's widely differing views on this issue (personally, I agree with Gibbon and LOVED reading his book). And I do get that everyone has a point in each their own arguments. And I appreciate your forbearance in this discussion, and how you presented everyone's views as fairly as possible.
Please pardon me for saying this, however. How much of the contemporary "Those so-called 'Dark Ages' weren't all THAT bad!!" reflects current political ideas around culture, art, political unity, and economic stability? Gibbon et al had QUITE different ideas about all that than those guys in the 70s, who were possibly influenced by more postmodern notions, and each of their biases could very well have affected their vision of the period.
As a historian of Unitarianism, I find it fascinating and revolutionary to consider that our theology might extend back, through Arian barbarians, to the earliest establishment years of Christianity.
“All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”
Actually the Romans borrowed all those from the Etruscans and all those facilities were more used in the so called barbarian world than we asume. The Romans were just greedier and poorer this is why they started the empire.
During this period, there were major advances in the field of agricultural technology, which enabled increased crop yields, particularly in northern Europe.
But the rise of that monstrous church, ugh. It was a dark age.
@@trentw.3566such a silly thing to say
The years 500-1000 were not a gentle transition in Europe.
You're tiptoeing around the main issue.The Dark in Dark Ages is literal.
There was less lighting at night?
@@trentw.3566 …and that too.
With regard to the early years of the Middle Ages wasn't there a large volcanic eruption sometime around 536AD which may have literally darkened the skies in various geographic areas around the world which subsequently led to reduced sunlight, crop failures, pestilence, famine, diseases developing into plagues? After climatic conditions became more favorable the difficult aspect to me at least is understanding how society was organized in Western Europe in the immediate aftermath of Roman Imperial Administration. In the year 1000 let's say people for the most part are tied to localized agriculturally based manors held by localized strongmen ( I call them Caudillos) who are themselves in service to a higher lord like a King or Duke. Ok, so right before this development of Fuedal society how did most people live day to day? Did individual families own small portions of land to farm and/or raise cattle? Did successor states in Western Europe begin to start minting their own coins and rebuild roads and transport infrastructure to restart transport potential enabling regional trade and commerce? How did people become classified into different stratified social classes of Nobles, Clergy, Warriors, Artisans, and Laborers? What did they have signs posted on trees proclaming open tryouts for knights? Finally, how the xxxx did Western Europe begin economic take-off initially? Remember reading that Charlemagne, who was trying to get things going again asked a couple of Jewish merchants at the time for advice in developing commercial trading relationships with the more economically developed Byzantine and Islamic areas. The merchants politely asked Charlemagne what he had to offer the Eastern areas in commercial trade and prudently supressed their impulse to laugh in Charlemagnes face!!!
I guess we should drop the term Trail of Tears, since that’s a value judgement, right?
7:52 lol what peaceful transition ? like the somalin that boarded the ship and said "im the captain now" peaceful ?
More peaceful??? What? I think Wells is way off there.
If literacy declines it declines, right? Indeed meanwhile there are „scholars“ arguing that literacy isnt of any importance. „Culture“ being simply a specific way of life. All these ways being of equal „value“.
Of course life sucked for urbanites but rural people that could fulfill most of their own needs were unknowingly the doomsday preppers of their time.
Just the rise of the Church alone made it a dark age.